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Wednesday, March 13, 2019

OT - Catch-All Pop Culture Extravaganza ([most of] March 2019)

Hollywood actresses Lori Loughlin and Felicity Huffman are among 50 people charged in a $25 million college entrance exam cheating scheme, according to court documents unsealed in Boston on Tuesday.

The alleged scam focused on getting students admitted to elite universities as recruited athletes, regardless of their athletic abilities, and helping potential students cheat on their college exams, according to the indictment.

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: March 13, 2019 at 07:47 AM | 478 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: movies, music, off-topic, television, whatever else belongs under the rubric of 'popular culture'

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   1. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: March 12, 2019 at 05:50 PM (#5822226)
Aunt Becky did nothing wrong.
   2. Davo cant be eatin thirty hot dogs every day Posted: March 12, 2019 at 05:57 PM (#5822231)
I laughed
@NickPinkerton
A propos of Lolita: People are today, by and large, incapable of grasping that the discourse of a character or characters in a work of art is separate from the discourse of the work itself. I'm unsure if this is really a new development, but at any rate it's depressing!

If it helps, maybe think of art as something that operates on a "RTs are not endorsements" system?
   3. Baldrick Posted: March 12, 2019 at 06:01 PM (#5822232)
Two questions for the room about live music.

First, what is the best live show you have ever attended? Mine was Jeff Mangum (Neutral Milk Hotel) in 2012. Closest thing to a religious experience I've ever had, I think. Second place is probably Okkervil River in 2007.

Second question: what band do you wish you could go back in time and see at their peak? For me it's probably Springsteen in the 70s. My favorite band is the Beatles and it feels crazy not to pick them, but at their peak they weren't playing shows that anyone could hear, or weren't playing any shows at all. I'd pay just about anything to be on that rooftop, though.
   4. A sad, lost penguin wandering the tundra, dreaming Posted: March 12, 2019 at 06:07 PM (#5822235)
Question A) Phish - Big Cypress NYE 2000

Question B) JHE European tour 1969. That run of shows was stupidly good, and it all began with *all* of their gear being lost when somebody stole their van just before the tour began ... And this was gear that Hendrix had had custom rigged to handle to abuse he intended to put on it.
   5. Baldrick Posted: March 12, 2019 at 06:22 PM (#5822238)
Question B) JHE European tour 1969. That run of shows was stupidly good, and it all began with *all* of their gear being lost when somebody stole their van just before the tour began ... And this was gear that Hendrix had had custom rigged to handle to abuse he intended to put on it.

Great answer.

I'm glad I live now and not then, but good god what it would have been like to be around then, with the means to catch all of these artists.
   6. BrianBrianson Posted: March 12, 2019 at 06:59 PM (#5822243)
And sure, I would call it macho. Why not?


So, maybe it's a nuance of using the word "Macho", but I use it for a braggado, a posturing kind of dominance (probably based on physical strength or skill). The narrator is nothing like that, and succeeds largely by being nothing like that. He expresses essentially no interest in other people's esteem, which I'd call really anti-macho. He wins a confrontation with his boss by beating the crap out of himself, which is very un-macho. Tyler is in some ways macho (especially towards the end), but he's essentially a villain by that point, which the narrator shoots himself in the head to get rid of. Essentially "winning" his journey while dressed in a housecoat and underpants, which is not a real "masculine" way of dressing. Overall, the narrator "purging" himself of his machoness (Tyler) is what sets him up for a (presumably) satisfying life. Really, it's Robert Paulson's death that sets him towards his conclusion, and Bob had the kind of tits you imagine God has. Like, un-macho. And so on.

It is a bit artsy, and that no doubt lets us read our own biases into it a bit. But really, the popularity of Fight Club is one of the things that makes me think cisgender people are a negligible fraction of the population. A movie that represents "gender performance" as rubbish that needs to be purged from your life, violently if necessary (indeed, perhaps preferably), and all the really run-of-the-mill dudes drawn strongly to it.
   7. Lassus Posted: March 12, 2019 at 07:06 PM (#5822244)
First, what is the best live show you have ever attended?

Hard to say. It's probably a cheat, but A.) Lollapalooza I 1991 on the home court of Los Angeles is pretty hard to beat. Runner-up being Beethoven's 7th at Mostly Mozart after the 2016 BTF softball game.

B.) - Z.) Prince

Runners-up: Foo Fighters in a 500-person hall in 1994, Redd Kross in the Nuart theater around the same time. 1998 San Francisco Noise-Pop fest where I caught shooting star Oranger. Semisonic and Prince after-show that same year. Sunny Day Real Estate rising Tide tour - 2000. Jellyfish NYC 1993.

Nothing recent. So sad. I'm old.
   8. Lassus Posted: March 12, 2019 at 07:09 PM (#5822245)
So, maybe it's a nuance of using the word "Macho", but I use it for a braggado, a posturing kind of dominance (probably based on physical strength or skill). The narrator is nothing like that, and succeeds largely by being nothing like that. He expresses essentially no interest in other people's esteem, which I'd call really anti-macho. He wins a confrontation with his boss by beating the crap out of himself, which is very un-macho. Tyler is in some ways macho (especially towards the end), but he's essentially a villain by that point, which the narrator shoots himself in the head to get rid of. Essentially "winning" his journey while dressed in a housecoat and underpants, which is not a real "masculine" way of dressing. Overall, the narrator "purging" himself of his machoness (Tyler) is what sets him up for a (presumably) satisfying life. Really, it's Robert Paulson's death that sets him towards his conclusion, and Bob had the kind of tits you imagine God has. Like, un-macho. And so on.

While I understand all this, and don't even really disagree that much, a movie where guys spend time in an all-male secret club dedicated to fighting each other is pretty macho. And even if that is completely the wrong read, it has been greatly received as such, the thinking-man's macho. (Or, to be clearer, WAS, when it came out. I don't know about now in retrospect.)
   9. PreservedFish Posted: March 12, 2019 at 07:17 PM (#5822246)
Tyler is in some ways macho (especially towards the end), but he's essentially a villain by that point, which the narrator shoots himself in the head to get rid of. Essentially "winning" his journey while dressed in a housecoat and underpants, which is not a real "masculine" way of dressing. Overall, the narrator "purging" himself of his machoness (Tyler) is what sets him up for a (presumably) satisfying life.


Well, that's all true, but I think it's actually too fine an analysis. The simple fact is that Tyler Durden is macho, and he's kind of an awesome character, and his awesomeness is a major part of the appeal of the movie, whatever the details of his demise. And while the narrator does eventually purge himself of his machoness, it is his early pursuit of machoness that breaks him out of his dead end conformist life. That he arrives at something of a synthesis in the end doesn't repudiate that. He's not going back to the Dockers and IKEA lifestyle. And even if he explicitly did, even if a coda showed him happy as a clam in a cubicle, it wouldn't blunt the emotional impact of the "violence = self-actualization" message.
   10. Davo cant be eatin thirty hot dogs every day Posted: March 12, 2019 at 07:20 PM (#5822247)
@jeremylevick
i don't follow Marvel movies that close so i get confused when they're always like "actually...I think I know someone who can help us.." and someone says "u gotta be kidding me" and the movie cuts to the guy. You're just supposed to know who that is. Who are all these guys
   11. Lassus Posted: March 12, 2019 at 07:26 PM (#5822248)
And what PF said, which was way better.
   12. Lassus Posted: March 12, 2019 at 07:31 PM (#5822250)
BTW, the 2019-2020 San Francisco Symphony season calendar was released today, Michael Tilson-Thomas's final season

Brahms Requiem and Mahler 8 in the final six weeks. I'm making plans now for 15 months from now. Two trips to San Francisco from NY for the symphony would be kind of batshit, but, you only live once.
   13. cardsfanboy Posted: March 12, 2019 at 07:47 PM (#5822256)
i don't follow Marvel movies that close so i get confused when they're always like "actually...I think I know someone who can help us.." and someone says "u gotta be kidding me" and the movie cuts to the guy. You're just supposed to know who that is. Who are all these guys


These movies aren't for you then...

But I'm not sure which scene they are referring too... in the post credit scenes of Ant-Man, it was the Falcon(a major character in the movie that aired before Ant-Man, and a minor character in Ant-Man, making that point.... In Black Panther it was the Winter Soldier who was a major character in three movies---heck one of the movies was named after him---it's not like these were bit characters almost all of them were title characters or major secondary characters)

   14. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Fred Posted: March 12, 2019 at 07:49 PM (#5822257)
Radiohead, Glastonbury 1997. Flew in, grabbed OK Computer at the Heathrow HMV (it hadn't been released in the US yet), hopped a bus out to the festival and listened to it many times as I could before the batteries on my CD walkman died -- and was still completely unprepared to hear it live, surrounded by 100k people.
   15. PreservedFish Posted: March 12, 2019 at 07:50 PM (#5822258)
i don't follow Marvel movies that close so i get confused when they're always like "actually...I think I know someone who can help us.." and someone says "u gotta be kidding me" and the movie cuts to the guy. You're just supposed to know who that is. Who are all these guys


This is me, 100%.

These movies aren't for you then...


Disagree. The shitty ones, like Ant Man and Dr Strange, are definitely not for me. But I tolerate and sometimes even enjoy the better ones. Marvel doesn't make its billions only off of comic nerds, they need mainstream support. To their credit, they've struck a fine balance, and seem to do a nice job of giving the dorks their fan service while keeping casual watchers engaged.
   16. PreservedFish Posted: March 12, 2019 at 07:57 PM (#5822260)
A. I saw Radiohead in 2000 while rolling on ecstasy. That was quite an experience. It was at the Santa Barbara bowl, perfect weather, under the moonlight. The openers were also a favorite at the time, The Beta Band.
   17. JJ1986 Posted: March 12, 2019 at 08:05 PM (#5822262)
It's not the characters, but I had to look up where each of the five infinity stones had come from when watching Avengers 3.
   18. BrianBrianson Posted: March 12, 2019 at 08:08 PM (#5822264)
No, no. Yeah, early Tyler is kind of awesome, and seductive, and the narrator gets taken in by him. And he's pretty macho (modulo maybe he's not a huge bragger).

And the movie ends with the narrator having to shoot himself in the head to get rid of Tyler. That's not a "minor point" the movie glosses over. Confronting and killing Tyler is the climax of the movie. In the ending is the conceit. Yeah, he rejects one sort of masculine gender role for other sort, but he then has to reject that too. Did you turn the movie off after an hour? He has to kill Tyler, his macho "half", to complete his journey. That's not a macho narrative at all.
   19. vortex of dissipation Posted: March 12, 2019 at 08:08 PM (#5822265)
First, what is the best live show you have ever attended?

Second question: what band do you wish you could go back in time and see at their peak?


a) Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young in Seattle, 1974. This was the opening show of their comeback tour - they hadn't played a scheduled show together in four years, and were excited about playing together and weren't bickering. They played 44 songs, and Neil Young especially was at the absolute top of his game.

b) Genesis circa 1973, or chatmonchy circa 2009.
   20. BrianBrianson Posted: March 12, 2019 at 08:13 PM (#5822266)
And Jeez, in what world are Ant-Man, and Dr. Strange, "shittier" Marvel movies? Other than Thor:Ragnorock, I don't think any are clearly better.

Age of Ultron, Thor: The Dark World, and The Incredible Hulk, those are the shittier Marvel movies.
   21. PreservedFish Posted: March 12, 2019 at 08:23 PM (#5822268)
And the movie ends with the narrator having to shoot himself in the head to get rid of Tyler. That's not a "minor point" the movie glosses over. Confronting and killing Tyler is the climax of the movie. In the ending is the conceit. Yeah, he rejects one sort of masculine gender role for other sort, but he then has to reject that too. Did you turn the movie off after an hour? He has to kill Tyler, his macho "half", to complete his journey. That's not a macho narrative at all.


Gosh you're dense. The machoness is a huge part of the appeal of the movie. It doesn't matter that the narrator repudiates the machoness in the end. What matters is that men watch a movie where macho things happen and think "damn this macho #### is awesome." The movie valorizes machoness for over an hour. That doesn't just dissipate or get undone. Rambo lays down his guns at the end of First Blood, does that mean the movie is actually about meekness and pacifism?
   22. Lassus Posted: March 12, 2019 at 08:31 PM (#5822270)
I actually rank Dr. Strange (not Ant-Man, although it was a rather formulaic non-rich Iron Man clone) very low, but I realize this is subjective. The origin takes too long, the training is too SHORT, and my Ditko expectations (my own fault) were off the charts. I admit I was sorely disappointed.
   23. Lassus Posted: March 12, 2019 at 08:34 PM (#5822271)
For anyone who cares, and everyone who doesn't, my completely subjective, recently updated, Marvel listing.

Great
1. Captain America: Winter Soldier
2. Avengers: Infinity War
3. The Avengers
4. Black Panther

Very Good
5. Captain America: Civil War
6. Iron Man
7. Spider-Man: Homecoming
8. Captain Marvel
9. Guardians of the Galaxy
10. Ant-Man and the Wasp

Good
11. Thor
12. Thor: Ragnarok
13. Captain America: The First Avenger
14. Avengers: Age of Ultron
15. The Incredible Hulk
16. Ant-Man

Decent
17. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2
18. Thor: The Dark World

Not Good
19. Iron Man 3
20. Doctor Strange

Bad
21. Iron Man 2
   24. BrianBrianson Posted: March 12, 2019 at 08:45 PM (#5822273)
No, I apparently judged the movie after watching all of it. (And while I have seen First Blood, it was only once, a long time ago. I don't think I can analyse it).

The ending of Fight Club doesn't come out of nowhere. The whole third act of the movie is the narrator realising that Tyler is awful for him. And the second act is really about him literally and figuratively falling apart as he follows Tyler. Yeah, Tyler (pre Project Mayhem) is pretty cool, but that's a small part of what's going on. Darth Vader is pretty cool, he does a bunch of cool stuff, people love to cosplay him, but the point of Star Wars is not that Vader is #######' cool and doing everything right in his life.
   25. Davo cant be eatin thirty hot dogs every day Posted: March 12, 2019 at 08:49 PM (#5822275)
Not Good
1. Captain America: The First Avenger

Bad
2. Doctor Strange
3. Black Panther
4. Marvel’s The Avengers
5. Wonder Woman
6. Iron Man
   26. yo la tengo Posted: March 12, 2019 at 08:50 PM (#5822277)
In response to baldrick in #3

Perhaps I would go with Alejandro Escovedo in a small club in Gainesville FL. Magic

Back in time? Definitely The Clash with Mick still in the band. I saw the fiasco they became and it made me sad
   27. PreservedFish Posted: March 12, 2019 at 08:56 PM (#5822278)
Great
1. Thor: Ragnarok

Enjoyable
2. The Avengers
3. Black Panther
4. Guardians of the Galaxy

I Think I Enjoyed It, but It was a While Ago
5. Iron Man

Meh
6. Captain America: Civil War
7. Iron Man 2

Did I even see this movie?
8. Avengers Age of Ultron

Bad
9. Doctor Strange
   28. Lassus Posted: March 12, 2019 at 09:10 PM (#5822281)
This whole discussion reminds me that the movie's climax is the couple holding hands as a bunch of buildings the Fight Club have blown up collapse in front of them.
   29. chisoxcollector Posted: March 12, 2019 at 09:14 PM (#5822283)
Great
1. Avengers: Infinity War
2. Captain America: Winter Soldier

Very Good
3. Captain America: Civil War
4. Avengers
5. Iron Man
6. Thor Ragnarok
7. Guardians of the Galaxy
8. Black Panther
9. Captain Marvel

Good
10. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2
11. Captain America: The First Avenger
12. Spider-Man: Homecoming
13. Ant-man
14. Ant-Man and the Wasp
15. Doctor Strange
16. Avengers: Age of Ultron

Decent
17. Iron Man 2
18. Iron Man 3
19. Thor

Bad
20. Incredible Hulk
21. Thor: The Dark World
   30. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: March 12, 2019 at 09:29 PM (#5822289)
Best Concert Seen: 1973 David Bowie's Ziggy Stardust Tour at the Tower Theater.
Runner-up: 1975 Springsteen just before Born to Run came out at PSU's brand new Eisenhower Auditorium. We slept out all night and got 8th row seats only to be moved to the last row on the night of the concert because they wanted all the monitors and #### in our row. What a ripoff, man!

Worst: 1974-ish drunken Stephen Stills and Manassas. At least we had a great opening act: Bonnie Raitt.
   31. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: March 12, 2019 at 09:33 PM (#5822290)
First question: probably the Von Bondies in 2004 with my two favorite local bands opening. I haven't been to many big concerts.

Second question: Thin Lizzy
   32. Lassus Posted: March 12, 2019 at 09:40 PM (#5822291)
My higher ranker than most of the Incredible Hulk is almost solely due to Edward Norton. I really wish I could find out WTF caused that riff. Ruffalo is a fine actor and has done a fine job - but Norton WAS Banner. That's still upsetting.
   33. BrianBrianson Posted: March 12, 2019 at 09:48 PM (#5822293)
First question: probably the Von Bondies in 2004 with my two favorite local bands opening. I haven't been to many big concerts.


If it makes you feel better, the best concert I've been to is probably The Arrogant Worms playing in the basement cafeteria of BCE place.
   34. Omineca Greg Posted: March 12, 2019 at 09:49 PM (#5822294)
The Arrogant Worms put on a great show!
   35. chisoxcollector Posted: March 12, 2019 at 09:55 PM (#5822295)
Best Concert Seen: 1973 David Bowie's Ziggy Stardust Tour at the Tower Theater


Man, I can only imagine how awesome that was. Ziggy era Bowie is #1 on my list of concerts I would go back and attend if I had a time machine.
   36. Lassus Posted: March 12, 2019 at 10:00 PM (#5822296)
EDIT: this post is just talking about shows. snore.
   37. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 12, 2019 at 10:27 PM (#5822299)
Runner-up: 1975 Springsteen just before Born to Run came out at PSU's brand new Eisenhower Auditorium. We slept out all night and got 8th row seats only to be moved to the last row on the night of the concert because they wanted all the monitors and #### in our row. What a ripoff, man!
Wow. That’s atrocious. It doesn’t sound like something Bruce would have allowed to happen if he knew what was going on.
   38. Swoboda is freedom Posted: March 12, 2019 at 10:52 PM (#5822300)
First, what is the best live show you have ever attended?

Second question: what band do you wish you could go back in time and see at their peak?


Best- Talking Heads. Saw them during Stop Making Sense tour. Really excellent. I had seen them before, but they had it together.
2nd best. B-52s circa late 1980 at the Palladium. Just so much energy. The crowd was almost a show too, with the hair and outfits.
3rd Dave Matthews London 1994. He had a lot of energy then. Love his first 3 albums, not so much now.

I would love to see prime Bowie circa 1975 or so.
   39. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: March 13, 2019 at 12:38 AM (#5822303)
I actually saw Metallica last night in Indy. We're all getting old, though much more mature. I was on the floor near the stage, and there just isn't the level (hardly any) of rumbling and moshing you would've experienced circa 80s/90s. That was OK w me. Lots of Dads bringing their kids, my wife vetoed me taking our 10 year old daughter, probably a good call. They still have great energy, and while shows in Hoops arenas rarely sound 'good', it was worth it. Great to hear 'Hit the Lights.' and not hear Sandman.

My best show is a tough call, I feel like that answer changes over the years. Violent Femmes at a block party, an late 80s/early 90s Metallica, a late 90s Prince, a Traffic show, though Lassus' remark above reminds me of a Foo Fighters show on a free side stage at Summerfest in '94? maybe, was really good. I really wish I could've seen David Bowie. (I perceive that many of us have a strong bias to shows experienced in our formative years).
   40. Baldrick Posted: March 13, 2019 at 01:51 AM (#5822309)
The entire "#Actually, it's a CRITIQUE of masculinity" bit is precisely why Fight Club is a deal-breaker for me. Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining, as they say.
   41. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: March 13, 2019 at 07:49 AM (#5822313)
First, what is the best live show you have ever attended?

Second question: what band do you wish you could go back in time and see at their peak?


First is probably when I wandered in to The Roots playing at the North Sea Jazz Festival about a decade ago, not knowing anything about them. That was pretty fortuitous. (The Cinematic Orchestra also did a great, dreamy/trance-like set there, I think in the same year.)

Second is hard to answer - I don't see much live music and have relatively low tolerance for the demands of most gigs - but The Who would need to be in the conversation.
   42. Swoboda is freedom Posted: March 13, 2019 at 08:08 AM (#5822315)
OK What is the worst concert you ever saw?

For me it would be Bob Mould. I love some of his music, but he played it so ear splitting loud, it was difficult to stand it. Plus he wouldn't play a lot of the old Husker Du or Sugar songs.

Second would be The Cars. A lot of standing around in a huge auditorium.

I have seen some bad warm up bands, but not sure we can count them.
   43. Lassus Posted: March 13, 2019 at 08:20 AM (#5822319)
OK What is the worst concert you ever saw?

Modest Mouse 1997ish in some Seattle club. Lead guy incomprehensible and too drunk/high to finish set. Tried to push past me to get to bar afterwards and I told him to "fuck off, loser" so he tried to punch me, missed, and fell down. I suppose it could have been entertaining, but I hate drunks and was actually there to hear the band.

   44. RMc accompanies the Griffmen to Augusta Posted: March 13, 2019 at 08:23 AM (#5822320)
Best show seen

In a stadium: Bruce Springsteen, Pontiac Silverdome, 1984.
In an indoor arena: Prince, Joe Louis Arena, 1988.
In an outdoor arena: "Weird Al" Yankovic (with The Monkees), Pine Knob (Clarkson, Michigan), 1987.
In a theatre: Go-Go's, Fox Theatre (Detroit), 1990.
In a club/bar: Mojo Nixon, The Ark (Ann Arbor, Michigan), 1992.
In a radio station: Vladimir's Universe, WQBR (Ypsilanti, Michigan), 1988.
   45. Davo cant be eatin thirty hot dogs every day Posted: March 13, 2019 at 09:02 AM (#5822327)
   46. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: March 13, 2019 at 09:19 AM (#5822332)
First, what is the best live show you have ever attended?


Probably Naked Raygun at the Antenna Club in Memphis in early 3/91. Chumbawamba's gig there some 7 months later is way up there as well. Ditto for the first time I saw the Mekons, 12/89 at Tipitina's in New Orleans.
   47. JJ1986 Posted: March 13, 2019 at 09:27 AM (#5822333)
50 Movies I Love That Are Not Well Known
I have seen exactly one of these movies and it's probably the most well-known one.
   48. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: March 13, 2019 at 09:28 AM (#5822335)
Catching up on stuff:

If a woman said her FAVORITE book was the bible, or some self help nonsense, or anything by Ayn Rand, or the Davinci Code, I would lose interest quick. The Bible is on my list because I don't think someone that devout would be happy with me as I swing from thinking the bible is deep with meaning and wisdom to mocking it as a complete crock of shit. So better to just not get started in that relationship. On Lolita, I think that woman not wanting to date a man who loved that book says more about her than the man. She sounds like a dope. On Beat stuff, I don't get the animosity from you knuckleheads. I'd be fascinated to meet a woman who loved Ferlinghetti or Gary Snyder or Ginsberg. Even On The Road would be fine (especially since that probably means she's young! ::creepy Groucho Marx expression here::)

On concerts, I think, while this sounds embarrassing, it's probably Pearl Jam in Sacramento in 1992 even though I'm not a Pearl Jam fan. Bad Religion opened up for them and gave the best opener performance I've ever seen and really had the crowd primed for Pearl Jam's entrance. Everyone was just happy and nuts at that show and it was probably my best experience. A close second would be the first time I saw Jazz--this was at Syracuse University in 1991 and I was 18. I also discovered the joys of coffee at that show which I had avoided until then. I prefer rock/pop when I'm at home listening to music, but that little show by an obscure and forgotten jazz band started a love affair I have with live jazz which I prefer over live rock/pop. I usually feel pummeled after a rock show and not in a good way but at a jazz show I can just settle into a chair and leisurely sip a scotch while I just float along with the music. Awesome. An honorable mention would be the times I saw Junior Kimbrough in Mississippi. What a genius that guy was. Seriously, do yourselves a favor and get the Sad Days, Lonely Nights album immediately.

The worst concert? Meh, I've been to plenty where I was just counting the # of songs to predict when it would end. I guess maybe a Counting Crows/Cracker concert in 1995 (I really liked Cracker then and still do now) or Cake in Dallas in 1996 (which I went to because my brother wanted to go). Both of those sucked because the crowd was bro-ish and more intent on slam dancing than just enjoying the show. I remember the frontman for Cake getting really annoyed by it. This was a period of time when people seemed to go to concerts, no matter who was playing, to be aggressive. Another terrible show was Morphine in Oxford, MS. It was a small show and one guy in the audience kept screaming for them to play a particular song and the band got annoyed with it and checked out on the performance. That was a bummer because I was excited to see them.
   49. JJ1986 Posted: March 13, 2019 at 09:29 AM (#5822336)
Best show I've seen was Bruce Springsteen and the E-Street Band sometime around 1999 or 2000. Looking it up, it was the reunion tour and not in support of any album. No opening act, they came out and rocked for about 5 hours.

Worst show - I have seen Sugar Ray, although it was for like 30 minutes at a pop-music festival.

I have seen some really horrible opening acts over the years, like a woman who had some kind of stage fright and wouldn't look at or talk to the audience, but I don't think it's fair to count them.
   50. The Good Face Posted: March 13, 2019 at 10:29 AM (#5822371)
The ending of Fight Club doesn't come out of nowhere. The whole third act of the movie is the narrator realising that Tyler is awful for him. And the second act is really about him literally and figuratively falling apart as he follows Tyler. Yeah, Tyler (pre Project Mayhem) is pretty cool, but that's a small part of what's going on. Darth Vader is pretty cool, he does a bunch of cool stuff, people love to cosplay him, but the point of Star Wars is not that Vader is #######' cool and doing everything right in his life.


This is relevant here I think.
   51. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: March 13, 2019 at 10:47 AM (#5822381)
I have seen some really horrible opening acts over the years, like a woman who had some kind of stage fright and wouldn't look at or talk to the audience

Cat Power?
   52. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: March 13, 2019 at 11:23 AM (#5822391)
First is probably when I wandered in to The Roots playing at the North Sea Jazz Festival about a decade ago, not knowing anything about them.


The best concert I've been to was also The Roots at Centerstage Atlanta about 15 years ago. It was hilarious to watch ?uestlove's continuous bellowing at his bandmates. They did about a half-hour hard rock jam at the end, then brought Kanye West out for the encore. ("Jesus Walks" was getting airplay at the time, so this would have been late 2004 or early 2005.)

Worst show was probably Wyclef Jean at a campus concert around 1998 or 1999. "The Carnival" is in my all-time Top 10 albums, but he was horrible live.
   53. BrianBrianson Posted: March 13, 2019 at 11:28 AM (#5822394)
The Arrogant Worms put on a great show!


Oh, yes. I didn't pick a random example, I meant that. It's 20 years later, and I still remember when (during Lonely Lab of Broken Hearts, I believe), two of the guys jumped off the stage, ran off to the side of the audience to burst throw some potted ferns and do a Waldorf & Statler bit. Really the kind of thing you could only do when you're performing in a cafeteria for an audience of ~50 people.
   54. PepTech Posted: March 13, 2019 at 11:31 AM (#5822396)
Gotta go with Springsteen as well. Concert started at 8:00, when we were admitted at 6 the full band was doing a soundcheck that lasted about an hour of fooling around with covers, then of course four hours plus of show.

Props to Elvis Costello, alone on stage in Sapporo in 1991. Really nice intimate 90 minutes. A similar experience with a Roger Hodgson one-man show in Seattle in the mid-90s.
   55. Master of the Horse Posted: March 13, 2019 at 11:32 AM (#5822397)
I was asked along to an alternative music festival, saw Walk the Moon concert and was really impressed. Type of music that in person was way better than via other platforms FWIW
   56. BrianBrianson Posted: March 13, 2019 at 11:35 AM (#5822399)
That some people might miss the message of the film may or may not be an indictment of the film (certainly I left Jurassic Park wanting to clone dinosaurs - I doubt you could make a film that'd make me feel otherwise). If nobody gets it, then maybe blame the art. If people halfway get it, well, I don't really spend a ton of time analysing every movie I watch and how I react to it. I could certainly believe there's a non-trivial number of boys/men who came out of Fight Club well in tune with the "Gender roles that are being pushed on you are rubbish" while not totally getting "Other gender roles that could be pushed on you would also be rubbish" - the former is obviously going to be a lot more visceral. Which itself is still progress, even if you're only halfway to the destintation.
   57. manchestermets Posted: March 13, 2019 at 11:39 AM (#5822403)
Best gig: Belle & Sebastian on their 2006 tour. It was the sweet spot between them becoming really good at live performance, and them starting to release increasingly inessential work.

Time travel gig: Probably Queen on Christmas Eve 1975. Though Ziggy era Bowie comes a close second. Just give me a season ticket for Hammersmith Odeon in the early-mid 70s really.
   58. PepTech Posted: March 13, 2019 at 11:40 AM (#5822404)
As for Marvel - in no particular order within tiers:

Great
Captain America: Winter Soldier
Thor Ragnarok

Very Good
Spider-Man: Homecoming
Captain America: The First Avenger
Captain America: Civil War
Avengers
Iron Man

Good
Ant-Man
Black Panther
Thor
Guardians of the Galaxy
Avengers: Infinity War

Decent
Ant-Man and the Wasp
Captain Marvel
Avengers: Age of Ultron
Incredible Hulk
Doctor Strange

Bad
Iron Man 2
Iron Man 3
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2
Thor: The Dark World
   59. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: March 13, 2019 at 11:56 AM (#5822413)
Time travel-wise, I think it would be New Order at the Hacienda. Sam Cooke at the Apollo would be a close second.
   60. Davo cant be eatin thirty hot dogs every day Posted: March 13, 2019 at 12:11 PM (#5822418)
   61. manchestermets Posted: March 13, 2019 at 12:37 PM (#5822430)
Time travel-wise, I think it would be New Order at the Hacienda.


Oh yeah, I guess I'd accept the Stone Roses as the Hacienda. Which annoyingly I could realistically have seen, but I was a late developer in terms of music.
   62. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: March 13, 2019 at 12:41 PM (#5822433)
Starship Troopers always seemed to me a good gauge of the 'did someone get the point?' parody/ironic lean into a philosophy.

Marvel tiers:

Great: Av1, GOTG1, CA3
Very Good: IM1, CA2, Thor3, Av3
Good: Thor1, IM2, BP, AM, CM, GOTG2, DrS
Watchable: AM&TW;, CA1, IM3, Av2, Spiderman
Inessential: Thor2, IH

I'm really enjoying the MCU a lot more than I expected.
   63. SandyRiver Posted: March 13, 2019 at 12:49 PM (#5822436)
Best concert: Bach's St. Matthew Passion, late 90s, by the Portland (Maine) Symphony Orchestra and Choral Arts Society. For us uncultured Philistines, it was sung in English. Thrilling and inspirational.

Time machine: Would like to have seen John Philip Sousa conducting his band in (mostly) his own works.

Worst concert (and only rock concert): Rare Earth, early 70s. Tunes might've been memorable if my head didn't hurt so bad. Probably contributed more to my tinnitus than all the firearms I've shot and chainsaws run before I began using ear protection.
   64. Hysterical & Useless Posted: March 13, 2019 at 12:53 PM (#5822438)
14. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Fred
Posted: March 12, 2019 at 07:49 PM (#5822257)
Radiohead, Glastonbury 1997. Flew in, grabbed OK Computer at the Heathrow HMV (it hadn't been released in the US yet), hopped a bus out to the festival and listened to it many times as I could before the batteries on my CD walkman died -- and was still completely unprepared to hear it live, surrounded by 100k people.


You, sir, are my idol.
   65. The Mighty Quintana Posted: March 13, 2019 at 12:58 PM (#5822441)
Best: Bob Mould acoustic in 1991-ish Worcester, MA. Just raw emotion, people were transfixed.
Worst: Palace Music/Will Oldham 1995-ish Cambridge, MA. Absolutely mailed it in....looked like his band was pulled out of a subway station that day. I asked my friends, "Why does he hate his fans?"
   66. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 13, 2019 at 12:59 PM (#5822443)
I saw Radiohead open for REM on the Monster tour, shortly after The Bends came out. That was a pretty badass show all around.
   67. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 13, 2019 at 01:01 PM (#5822444)
Worst...hmm...bad Dylan, incoherent Ryan Adams, completely indifferent Son Volt.
   68. Lassus Posted: March 13, 2019 at 01:29 PM (#5822455)
Best concert: Bach's St. Matthew Passion, late 90s, by the Portland (Maine) Symphony Orchestra and Choral Arts Society. For us uncultured Philistines, it was sung in English. Thrilling and inspirational.

I support this post. (Although, truthfully, I kinda prefer the St. John's, but whatever.)

I saw a fabulous somewhat-renowned semi-staged St. Matthews at BAM in Brooklyn in.... I guess...2007ish? I actually wept during the final chorale. Only Bach could make me cry during a sacred piece.


Time machine: Would like to have seen John Philip Sousa conducting his band in (mostly) his own works.

The problem with time-travel and classical performances/premieres, I'm not really convinced it would be any better than modern performances, and would most likely be worse.
   69. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: March 13, 2019 at 01:40 PM (#5822463)
and not hear Sandman.


So, you left before the show ended? Saw them in Cincinnati on Jan 20. They are still great live, but, Best Concert:

Metallica, 7-5-1989 on the Damaged Justice Tour.

back in time: there are just too many, but, any of those 1969 Jimi Hendrix Experience shows would be fine. Maybe 1969-1970 Zeppelin show...
   70. PepTech Posted: March 13, 2019 at 02:42 PM (#5822500)
For those of you with WAY too much time on your hands: How to watch the MCU, including TV, in order

Well, *chronological* order, anyway.
   71. A sad, lost penguin wandering the tundra, dreaming Posted: March 13, 2019 at 02:51 PM (#5822504)
Worst...hmm...bad Dylan,


Ooooh, good call, bad Dylan is BAD Dylan.

Saw him in 2009 and it probably was the worst concert I've ever seen, and I like late Dylan. He just wanted to sit behind his keyboard and mumble a bunch ...

Metallica, 7-5-1989 on the Damaged Justice Tour.


First concert I ever went to was on that tour: 7/29/1989 - Allentown Fair Grounds.

but, any of those 1969 Jimi Hendrix Experience shows would be fine


Well, I'm not sure I'd go with any, there were some real dogs in there (I'd hate to have seen the first show on 1/9 and heard the 2nd show later on, for example), sometimes it was the drugs, sometimes it was the lack of drugs (hear the difference between 1st and 2nd shows on 1/9); but 69 is my favorite year for Hendrix overall.

I could never turn down the chance to EXPERIENCE peak Hendrix (which it why it was my choice), but in the, "one band, one year", question, close runner up, no doubt, would be Phish in 1997; I don't think I've ever heard a band perform at that level for that kind of period, they were staggering, not only do I think they didn't play a bad show, I'm not sure I could say they played anything less than a good show ... Spring, Summer, Fall ... Each phase is legendary.
   72. jmurph Posted: March 13, 2019 at 02:52 PM (#5822505)
Man, y'all have to start posting the link to the new thread at the end of the old thread!
   73. jmurph Posted: March 13, 2019 at 02:57 PM (#5822507)
Too hard to think of my best concert, but my worst was easily Ryan Adams pre-sobriety. He played like 4 songs total, poorly, with multi-minute breaks between songs in which he left the stage. Then he climbed down into the middle of the auditorium, sans microphone, and played a couple more, also poorly, though mostly inaudibly. Much booing and heckling ensued, but mostly people were into it, which really cemented the idea in my mind that people are far too forgiving of their heroes.
   74. Davo cant be eatin thirty hot dogs every day Posted: March 13, 2019 at 02:58 PM (#5822509)
47. What movie did you consider the most popular in #45?
   75. jmurph Posted: March 13, 2019 at 03:00 PM (#5822510)
That some people might miss the message of the film may or may not be an indictment of the film (certainly I left Jurassic Park wanting to clone dinosaurs - I doubt you could make a film that'd make me feel otherwise). If nobody gets it, then maybe blame the art. If people halfway get it, well, I don't really spend a ton of time analysing every movie I watch and how I react to it. I could certainly believe there's a non-trivial number of boys/men who came out of Fight Club well in tune with the "Gender roles that are being pushed on you are rubbish" while not totally getting "Other gender roles that could be pushed on you would also be rubbish" - the former is obviously going to be a lot more visceral. Which itself is still progress, even if you're only halfway to the destintation.

Since I was (I think) the one to introduce the "macho" criticism, it wasn't so much aimed at the work as the fans. Palahniuk in general, Fight Club in particular, really seems to bring in that crowd. Lassus put it this way in the other thread:
This is an age-old debate. Well, two-decade-old debate. I know there is argument, but it has been a favorite of the macho, sensitive-aggrieved-male, purported-intellectual sect for all of that time.

   76. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: March 13, 2019 at 03:03 PM (#5822511)
So, you left before the show ended? Saw them in Cincinnati on Jan 20.

Yes, I started for the concourse as Nothing Else Matters was firing up, figuring I wouldn't hear Blackened, or Battery in a final encore. I made a good choice I see.

One potential controversial remark: why are rap/r&b shows always so crappy? I do listen to and appreciate a fair spectrum of it, but whenever I've seen it live, it just sucks.
   77. jmurph Posted: March 13, 2019 at 03:06 PM (#5822512)
why are rap/r&b shows always so crappy? I do listen to and appreciate a fair spectrum of it, but whenever I've seen it live, it just sucks.

I've thought about this some when it comes to rap specifically: one, (frequent) lack of a live band. There's an almost karaoke element if it's just MCs and a laptop or whatever. Two, breath control (if that's the right term) seems harder?
   78. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: March 13, 2019 at 03:13 PM (#5822514)
Great

1. Avengers: Infinity War
2. Captain America: Winter Soldier
3. Avengers
4. Guardians of the Galaxy
5. Spider-Man: Homecoming

Good

6. Black Panther
7. Thor: Ragnarok
8. Captain America: Civil War
9. Ant-Man
10. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2
11. Captain Marvel
12. Ant-Man and the Wasp
13. Iron Man

Okay

14. Avengers: Age of Ultron
15. Doctor Strange
16. Incredible Hulk
17. Thor
18. Captain America: The First Avenger
19. Thor: The Dark World
20. Iron Man 3
21. Iron Man 2
   79. BrianBrianson Posted: March 13, 2019 at 03:20 PM (#5822515)
Jeez, you people all seem to hate Dr. Strange.
   80. Lassus Posted: March 13, 2019 at 03:26 PM (#5822517)
On Lolita, I think that woman not wanting to date a man who loved that book says more about her than the man. She sounds like a dope.

This surprised me. If you come back around, could you elaborate?
   81. PreservedFish Posted: March 13, 2019 at 03:29 PM (#5822519)
I saw Phish in 1997. It looks like it was the 12/29 show. I was 16 years old and I was fairly familiar with their music but was not in the least familiar with the scene, as the older friends that had introduced me to the band could only be described as pseudo-hippies at worst. The sight and smell of the other fans was immediately overwhelming. The dreadlocks, the visible grime, the huge flowing rainbowy patched-up pants and dresses, the gnarly bare feet. And as soon as the first notes were played, the entire arena exploded in unison into that terrifying spasmodic dance that Phish fans do.

I remember that I wore black leather shoes, ripped jeans, a button down shirt of some sort, which is more or less what I'd usually wear if I was going somewhere "cool" like the Smalls Jazz Club or the Upper East Side bars that would let kids drink without ID. I couldn't have possibly looked more out of place - seriously, if I'd been wearing a tuxedo or a kaftan or a Hamburgler costume I would have made more sense among the sea of freaks than as a kid wearing a button-down and leather shoes. I was with three other friends, also newbies, and it felt like we were the only people in the whole building (aside from the band) that wasn't writhing continuously for the whole 3 hour show.

I'm making it sound like a nightmare, which is an exaggeration, although I did feel very self-conscious during the whole thing. I enjoyed the music, and would go to 7-8 other Phish shows in the coming years, but never got into the fashion, never really did the private mushroom dance thing, and now it's been years since I've listened to the band.
   82. PreservedFish Posted: March 13, 2019 at 03:32 PM (#5822522)
This surprised me. If you come back around, could you elaborate?

I'm not Shooty, but I had the same reaction. Such an opinion seems likely to be based on a superficial knowledge of the book (ie "yuck, it's about a pedo"), and it's also weirdly judgmental.
   83. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 13, 2019 at 03:33 PM (#5822523)
Too hard to think of my best concert, but my worst was easily Ryan Adams pre-sobriety. He played like 4 songs total, poorly, with multi-minute breaks between songs in which he left the stage. Then he climbed down into the middle of the auditorium, sans microphone, and played a couple more, also poorly, though mostly inaudibly. Much booing and heckling ensued, but mostly people were into it, which really cemented the idea in my mind that people are far too forgiving of their heroes.
Wow, that’s even worse than my incoherent Ryan Adams show. Mine was just a bunch of long, aimless jams on unknown songs (some of which were later released on Demolition) and poorly rearranged versions of the songs from Heartbreaker and Gold that people actually wanted to hear.
   84. jmurph Posted: March 13, 2019 at 03:36 PM (#5822524)
poorly rearranged versions of the songs from Heartbreaker and Gold that people actually wanted to hear.

This was the Cold Roses tour, but otherwise yeah, the songs he actually got through fit that description.
   85. Lassus Posted: March 13, 2019 at 03:39 PM (#5822525)
I'm not Shooty, but I had the same reaction. Such an opinion seems likely to be based on a superficial knowledge of the book (ie "yuck, it's about a pedo"), and it's also weirdly judgmental.

Maybe, and I'd have to read the book, I definitely have not.

But

If the argument made about Fight Club is that it has been accepted as popular justification to be a fighting anti-establishment bro thinking macho man, how is that argument immediately tossed aside if a woman is turned off by generations of men who have mooned affectionately over a book ostensibly about their current or future selves screwing a 13-year-old? I just don't see the dopiness wafting off a woman who thinks negatively of that sort of mooning.
   86. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: March 13, 2019 at 03:40 PM (#5822526)
Such an opinion seems likely to be based on a superficial knowledge of the book (ie "yuck, it's about a pedo"), and it's also weirdly judgmental.

QFT.
   87. jmurph Posted: March 13, 2019 at 03:40 PM (#5822527)
how is that argument immediately tossed aside if a woman is turned off by generations of men who have mooned affectionately over a book ostensibly about their current or future selves screwing a 13-year-old?

I'm reasonably (reasonably! I could be convinced) sure that's not a thing.

EDIT: Also Nabokov has kind of passed the test of Great Author, no?
   88. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: March 13, 2019 at 03:49 PM (#5822528)
how is that argument immediately tossed aside if a woman is turned off by generations of men who have mooned affectionately over a book ostensibly about their current or future selves screwing a 13-year-old?

I don't know, by maybe reading the book? Is the idea now to cancel art if the plot synopsis is offensive?
   89. Lassus Posted: March 13, 2019 at 03:50 PM (#5822529)
I think Nabokov (along with others) has lapped the field on the Great Author scale.

I just don't think a woman who thinks negatively about a book that seems replete with affectionate readings of screwing a 13-year-old qualifies as a dope.
   90. jmurph Posted: March 13, 2019 at 03:52 PM (#5822530)
Again I am genuinely not aware of that type of reading of Lolita. It's very, extremely clearly not a celebration of the narrator.
   91. Lassus Posted: March 13, 2019 at 03:53 PM (#5822531)
I don't know, by maybe reading the book? Is the idea now to cancel art if the plot synopsis is offensive?

My point was not in the slightest about canceling art or the book; it was about at not tossing aside a reading of the book that looks upon the subject negatively.


It's very, extremely clearly not a celebration of the narrator.

Maybe.
   92. PreservedFish Posted: March 13, 2019 at 03:57 PM (#5822533)
If the argument made about Fight Club is that it has been accepted as popular justification to be a fighting bro thinking macho man, how is that argument tossed aside if a woman is turned off by generations of men who have mooned affectionately over a book that is about screwing a 13-year-old?

Ah, good point. But I think there's a difference.

Fight Club (to a great extent) relies on violence for its entertainment value. It's like an anti-war film that also has awesome battle scenes. The Good Face's link in #50 explains this phenomenon.

Lolita is not really an erotic book, and I think it stretches credulity to suggest that its appeal rests on a positive portrayal of statutory rape. It does have a few sensual scenes. Most readers react to them with something like fascinated disgust.
   93. Lassus Posted: March 13, 2019 at 03:59 PM (#5822534)
But, well, this is a passage from a five-second googling:

In Defense of Lolita
Furthermore there is the problematic fact that the word has entered the English, Japanese, and other lexicons. Not for what it should be; the victim of a pedophile, but for a young woman who dances on the line between being innocent and sexual. A wide eyed, pig-tailed, blushing seductress.

So, yeah, not really sure that seeing "Lolita" literally becoming part of the language means that Humbert Humbert has been viewed as an actual villain.

I have no doubt it is an amazing book, and I already know Nabokov is an amazing author.

I just don't think coming down hard on a woman who tires of the literal male worldwide fascination with a middle-aged man pursuing and screwing a 13-year-old is fair.


and I think it stretches credulity to suggest that its appeal rests on a positive portrayal of statutory rape.

Sure, but the explication and explanation of the pursuit and emotion and longing exists as well.


Most readers react to them with something like fascinated disgust.

I think the fascination has far, far, far, far outpaced the disgust. By a lot. People who have read it talk about DeSade with disgust. No one talks about Lolita with disgust.
   94. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: March 13, 2019 at 04:05 PM (#5822535)
Again I am genuinely not aware of that type of reading of Lolita. It's very, extremely clearly not a celebration of the narrator.


The author of The Real Lolita, which I read a couple of weeks ago, asserts that it's not particularly rare, IIRC, though that's by no means even part of her focus.
   95. jmurph Posted: March 13, 2019 at 04:09 PM (#5822538)
Lassus I'm confused man, your depiction bears no resemblance to the book I read. Even using the words "pursuing and screwing" is loading the argument in your favor, that is very much not how the book is written.
   96. jmurph Posted: March 13, 2019 at 04:13 PM (#5822541)
The author of The Real Lolita, which I read a couple of weeks ago, asserts that it's not particularly rare, IIRC, though that's by no means even part of her focus.

Any good? I was curious about it but then Katy Waldman of the New Yorker took it apart pretty savagely and I never ended up reading it. I was skeptical of the premise that the real life inspiration was much of a mystery, given that it's mentioned in the book!
   97. Lassus Posted: March 13, 2019 at 04:42 PM (#5822551)
I also want to repeat that I think this discussion - as they often do - got expanded on a bit too much.

My only thought on Shooty's post was simply that I thought he was coming down a little hard on a woman who wouldn't want to deal with a man who went on about Lolita being his favorite book.

I get why he said that - even though I disagree - and I don't think it makes Shooty a horrible human, as I know Shooty personally and know that's not the case.

I hope I've made it somewhat clear what I disagreed with and why.
   98. Hysterical & Useless Posted: March 13, 2019 at 04:50 PM (#5822554)
a woman who wouldn't want to deal with a man who went on about Lolita being his favorite book.


I thought the original quote (was it a tweet?) was that she couldn't/wouldn't even date a man who merely said it was his favorite, nothing about "going on about it." Which makes it seem that she's assuming that to like the book = identifying with Humbert Humbert. I mean, it could be that there are people like that, but most of the people who've read it and consider it a great book think HH is a creep and Lo is a victim.
   99. Lassus Posted: March 13, 2019 at 04:55 PM (#5822556)
Which makes it seem that she's assuming that to like the book = identifying with Humbert Humbert.

I don't think Shooty or PF or jmurph or you are identifying with Humbert Humbert. I do think there's a difference between "identify" and "accept" on the point that men are generally more comfortable with than women; a decent number of the latter have still had to deal with men ogling them when they were 14.
   100. BrianBrianson Posted: March 13, 2019 at 04:56 PM (#5822557)
I'm always a little skeptical when people assert there are large numbers of people who hold view X that it's convenient for the asserter to have them hold.

If I look for reviews of Starship Troopers (which is the most unsubtle of the mentioned works), I find a lot of people asserting that most other people missed the satire, but a faint few who actually appear to be missing it. I have to suspect the same is true of (Fight Club, Lolita, whatever), except perhaps those who haven't really looked into them at all (if your sum knowledge of Starship Troopers comes froms a poster, it might be easy to miss the satire).
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