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Friday, November 02, 2018

OT - Catch-All Pop Culture Extravaganza (November 2018)

Before she arrived on the Vancouver set of Deadpool 2 in mid-August 2017, Joi Harris had never performed a stunt. She’d never been anywhere near a movie or TV set, for that matter. Producers and studio 20th Century Fox wanted an African-American double for Zazie Beetz, who’d been cast in the role of Domino. They hired Harris, 40, who had done some motorcycle racing, and flew her in a couple of days before the shoot. The sequence was pretty straightforward. It called for a rider, sitting astride a powerful Ducati 939 Hyperstrada motorcycle, to coast down a set of planks that had been laid over a few stairs. Harris would be traveling about 5 miles an hour, though onscreen it would be made to look as if she were going much faster.

As the day approached, several experienced stunt performers who had been training Harris all weekend say they told producers and the stunt coordinator they believed Harris wasn’t ready. They warned the production that racing on a track was very different from performing in front of cameras and an audience. Producers stuck to the plan. Canada’s workplace safety agency, WorkSafeBC, hasn’t released its final report on what happened next, but three people familiar with that day’s shoot say they watched in horror as Harris, on the first live take, lost control of the bike. She hung on as it sped across a street at high speed before hitting a planter, which sent her hurtling headfirst through a plate glass window. She wasn’t wearing a helmet. It was 9:30 in the morning, and her very first stunt would also be her last.

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: November 02, 2018 at 04:50 PM | 1213 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: movies, music, off-topic, television, whatever else belongs under the rubric of 'popular culture'

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   201. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: November 14, 2018 at 05:55 PM (#5787574)
There were only 2 people that regularly crossed the line and added nothing but insults. Sam and Dan.


And Sam has apparently been banned. Has Jim done the same with his bosom buddy the nutjob?
   202. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: November 14, 2018 at 05:55 PM (#5787575)
There were only 2 people that regularly crossed the line and added nothing but insults. Sam and Dan.
Cough*Bivens*Cough
   203. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 14, 2018 at 06:02 PM (#5787578)
FWIW, I'm with Jim on this. It's his site, and he has to deal with the fallout from it. If 90% of the complaints he's getting are arising out of one particular thread that has nothing to do with baseball, it's not hard to fathom that eliminating that thread would make his life a whole lot easier without really damaging the core reason for the site.

Here's the problem with that:

Who's doing the complaining? And how many actual complaints have there been from how many different people?

When you've got such a complete lack of transparency about those questions, it's hard not to infer that the "complaints" are little more than excuses.

I guess the other option would have been closer moderation of the thread itself, and suspending/banning people who don't seem to be able to post without all the name calling and general assholeish behavior, but that's going to take a lot more of his time and probably get to the same result as most of the top posters end up banned from the site eventually. He could have appointed people to help, but whoever it was who did the moderating would have ultimately incurred the wrath of the OT:P posters, and Jim would have received more complaints from those folks that their posts were being removed, that they were being suspended, etc. Same amount of complaints from the same source, just a different spin on them.

The problem is that nobody's ever really answered the obvious counterpoint: If you don't like what certain people were posting, and if you see that there's a pattern in their tone, why not just put them on Ignore? As Stalin once said: No man, no problem.

The only two Primates I ever Ignored on a long term basis were SBB and Dan. I didn't miss them, and I'm sure that anyone who has me on Ignore doesn't miss me. The point is that there's a perfect self-policing mechanism for dealing with Problem Posters that's been in place ever since I can remember, but instead Jim listens only to the people who choose not to use that simple solution.

There was a lot of upset when the Lounge was exiled maybe 10 years ago now? And IIRC it was sent to the forums for some of the same reasons - Jim was getting complaints about off-color, sexually suggestive, etc. posts that had nothing to do with baseball, and it was easier for him to just carve out a separate area than to try to deal with it on a post-by-post/poster-by-poster basis.

Which was a very good compromise solution. Since that policy was instituted, there've been almost no attempts to hijack non-OTP posts with any political commentary.

For those who actively participated in OT:P - would you have been able/willing to remake the thread as one where discussion is limited to civil posts that don't devolve into yelling at each other, threatening, calling each other names, etc.? Because every time I looked in there, that's described about 80% of the posts (and posters). It is possible to have a measured discussion about politics, even in the currently insane situation in this country. It didn't particularly feel like anyone on this site was interested in that, though.

Well, one man's yelling is another man's woofing is another man's fighting words is another man's ???? I get insulted routinely about as much as anyone here (Old Man, Dishonest, Terminal Leftist, Stuck in the 60's, etc.), but since at least a fair amount of it has been marginally amusing, I'm not sure why I should worry. Of course doxxing is another story, and that should be dealt with quickly. You'll notice that I always referred to J---- E------ as "JE" as soon as he changed his handle, and I think that nearly everyone here has followed that practice.

Personally I don't mind the woofing a bit, but I do wish that some of the opinions expressed were a bit more fact-based and less reflective of nothing but simplistic talking points. But then with a handful of exceptions like GregD and a few others, this isn't really a community of scholars, and if we we'd all been merely addressing one another with dueling position papers, I think the site would have lost a lot of its character.

And I also think that the problem of monitoring and stopping truly over-the-top comments is more than a bit exaggerated. If you gave the power to 2 or 3 of the more "civil" Primates to issue warnings and temporary suspensions, whatever problems there've been would've gone away. I'd have been perfectly comfortable in having (say) Mellow Mouse and David take on that role, even if I probably wouldn't agree with all of their rulings. But in any case, it'd certainly be a better solution than simply listening to a bunch of anonymous complaints and then unilaterally shutting down the thread(s) without any discussion. That's something I'd expect out of Sarah Sanders, not the head of BTF.

   204. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 14, 2018 at 06:02 PM (#5787579)
I personally think it was the bringing up of the Mormon thing that caused it all and virtually no one involved in OTP was part of that.


Well, that, his unwarranted vulgar attack on you*, and his frankly disgusting post** that he likes OTP because is keeps everyone he despises in one place.

* yes, he later graciously apologized, but not before the damage was done.

** not the first time he has said that. He mentions it every year or so.
   205. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 14, 2018 at 06:06 PM (#5787580)
Cough*Bivens*Cough


Yes, Bivens. I wouldn't lose any sleep if all three went the way of Kevin and joey B

* yes, he later graciously apologized, but not before the damage was done.


Here's a thought. Dan said he owes you a solid and and to contact him if there is any way he can make it up to you. Ask him to contact Jim, admit that he was the root cause of the latest dustup, and vow to never again darken OTP is he restores it.
   206. zenbitz Posted: November 14, 2018 at 06:07 PM (#5787581)
Hey, it’s 2018. I created a Discord for OTP BBTF exiles. https://discord.gg/PVDRFuX .

Already in the last 2 weeks I didn’t think my wife would outlive our cat (cat got sick and died, go figure - she was only 8), and now here she is outliving BBTF-OTP. It’s a wacky world.
   207. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 14, 2018 at 06:07 PM (#5787582)
there've been almost no attempts to hijack non-OTP posts with any political commentary.


And those that do are quickly shouted down. It was a good solution.
   208. Zonk Can't Hide his Disdain or Disgust Posted: November 14, 2018 at 06:08 PM (#5787583)
FWIW, I'm with Jim on this. It's his site, and he has to deal with the fallout from it. If 90% of the complaints he's getting are arising out of one particular thread that has nothing to do with baseball, it's not hard to fathom that eliminating that thread would make his life a whole lot easier without really damaging the core reason for the site.

I guess the other option would have been closer moderation of the thread itself, and suspending/banning people who don't seem to be able to post without all the name calling and general assholeish behavior, but that's going to take a lot more of his time and probably get to the same result as most of the top posters end up banned from the site eventually. He could have appointed people to help, but whoever it was who did the moderating would have ultimately incurred the wrath of the OT:P posters, and Jim would have received more complaints from those folks that their posts were being removed, that they were being suspended, etc. Same amount of complaints from the same source, just a different spin on them.

There was a lot of upset when the Lounge was exiled maybe 10 years ago now? And IIRC it was sent to the forums for some of the same reasons - Jim was getting complaints about off-color, sexually suggestive, etc. posts that had nothing to do with baseball, and it was easier for him to just carve out a separate area than to try to deal with it on a post-by-post/poster-by-poster basis.

For those who actively participated in OT:P - would you have been able/willing to remake the thread as one where discussion is limited to civil posts that don't devolve into yelling at each other, threatening, calling each other names, etc.? Because every time I looked in there, that's described about 80% of the posts (and posters). It is possible to have a measured discussion about politics, even in the currently insane situation in this country. It didn't particularly feel like anyone on this site was interested in that, though.


With the obvious "of course" (not my site, we're all generally 40 somethings, whatever) -

I do think it ought to be noted that this is not unique to BBTF.

Politics and culture (including baseball) have always abutted each other and occasionally overlapped.... but ordinarily, that has been because politics likes to use culture for politics or politics has just gotten momentarily so large (an election, a big policy issue) it overshadows a lot.

When we choose - whatever our politics or ideologies - to subvert that SOP, and pretend that a culture-first politics and culture-first political leaders won't further blur that line and introduce creep in special places where we might not like it, the result is pretty inevitable.

If you want politics walled off - elect gray, boring, career politicians who recognize life isn't half bad in the 21st century US.
   209. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: November 14, 2018 at 06:11 PM (#5787584)
Father Ted: I know, I know ... it’s on the list to binge some weekend where I’m sick
Jam: it is NOT for everybody, so dark that it dips into horror and the sketches are hit and miss. The hits though... Anyway, Linehan contributed to it and wasn’t real a fan - this interview gets into why in a way that hits on why I like Morris so much and why Linehan’s stuff is less my bag than his talent would otherwise suggest.
   210. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: November 14, 2018 at 06:17 PM (#5787585)
FWIW, I was once a big fan of the politics thread - I’d occasionally learn things and am not so interested in yelling into the void. Heck, my complaint was that there were too many people with my beliefs, that it could suffer from groupthink.
It has been years since I could dip my toes in for more than a post or two, seems like it’s been mostly yelling for a long time (largely, IMO, from RW trolling which then morphed into whatever we have now.)
It’s Jim’s site, he can do what he wants. I’d prefer that that thread remain on the mainland (the lounge format is awful) but it won’t change my posting patterns barring secondary effects on the rest of the site (which are not unlikely).

   211. McCoy Posted: November 14, 2018 at 06:18 PM (#5787586)


Well, that, his unwarranted vulgar attack on you*, and his frankly disgusting post** that he likes OTP because is keeps everyone he despises in one place.

* yes, he later graciously apologized, but not before the damage was done.

** not the first time he has said that. He mentions it every year or so.\\


Here's a thought. Dan said he owes you a solid and and to contact him if there is any way he can make it up to you. Ask him to contact Jim, admit that he was the root cause of the latest dustup, and vow to never again darken OTP is he restores it.


I wouldn't and won't ask for anything. I get why he thought what he thought and I wasn't disturbed by what he said to me at the time. I don't take things personal on this site and I generally don't try to throw around obvious insults. I will call a troll a troll and I really do think a certain poster is on the spectrum and that does cause problems here from time to time. You can say saying that is over the line and I'm ok with you having that view. I wouldn't fight you on it.

About the only thing that bothered me, and it echoes Andy's point, is a flareup that happened in 2012 with Kehoskie. 2012 was the year of "the skew" and a lot of people did not really understand polls or really data. I thought, and several others thought as well, that I did a good job exploring and explaining those issues. Now I happened to use Kehoskie's trollish posts to delve into those subjects and because of that I got threatened by Furtado to knock it off or I would be banned because there were complaints. I wasn't given any information or evidence of what kind of complaints. No one in the threads had ever said anything to me about it and I had spent a lot of time going into very important topics of OTP and only to have it all tossed off and told I was a troll by the site owner. That was the only time I was peeved by this site.
   212. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 14, 2018 at 06:21 PM (#5787587)
I wouldn't and won't ask for anything.


I know. Nor should you. The suggestion was tongue in cheek more than anything else.
   213. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: November 14, 2018 at 06:26 PM (#5787588)
I’ve only threatened violence toward the posters who deny the greatness of SPEED RACER.
   214. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 14, 2018 at 06:33 PM (#5787591)
For those who actively participated in OT:P - would you have been able/willing to remake the thread as one where discussion is limited to civil posts that don't devolve into yelling at each other, threatening, calling each other names, etc.?

The problem with OTP was mostly 1 or 2 posters, although more seemed to emulate elements of their style as time went on. The few times Jim intervened in the thread to issue warnings, he always cited the same poster but apparently never did anything beyond that. I don't know if a specific warning or suspension would have improved things, but you'd think it'd would have been sufficient for most. The most offensive OTP poster has apparently now been suspended, although it's not clear that he did anything recently that hadn't been going on for months, or even years.

I don't mean to rag on Jim, he has a real job and family, but the problem with OTP is reflective of the intermittent management of the site. Game Chatters from 2014 are still on the main page, as are some of the least active BBTF areas. The Newsblog is the most popular feature, but mostly for the user-submitted content, with no guarantee that every or even most worthwhile topics will be included on a given day. BBTF is still good enough to warrant our interest, IMHO, but a redesign and more active editorial management would help.
   215. McCoy Posted: November 14, 2018 at 06:50 PM (#5787594)
Just had a server accidentally think she gave a customer a $300 bottle of Achaval Ferrer instead of a $50 bottle of Achaval Ferrer. Was about ready to be very upset. Fortunately she grabbed the right bottle but hit the wrong price.
   216. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 14, 2018 at 08:45 PM (#5787611)
Geez, I spend one day traveling to that miserable craphole swamp of Florida and this whole place melts down into tears and spittle-flecked hysterics.
   217. McCoy Posted: November 14, 2018 at 08:48 PM (#5787614)
We call that a Wednesday.
   218. Morty Causa Posted: November 14, 2018 at 08:57 PM (#5787615)
I'm closing the thread.

When I have a few minutes, I will write a dedicated post about the end of political threads in the main part of the site. Long story short, I'm tired of getting complaints about people making threats about stabbing people in necks and/or exposing personal information about other site members. I'm tired of the rancor. I don't believe it serves the site well. As you've witnessed, the time I have available to conduct site tasks is very short. I'm tired of expending time dealing with the political threads.

If you like, you will be free to discuss politics in a hidden forum section, set up like the Lounge section. If that doesn't suffice, you will be free to conduct your political discussion on another site.


I approve this message.

Actually, it’s about time. It’s long overdue. The board has long passed its shelf life. It continues because it's like an addiction. We all know each, or think we do, too well, and what we think we know about someone has become merely static to any point that is being made or could possibly be made. That’s why I have said many times over the years that all posts should be anonymous. We tend to respond not to what is being said but to the person, whose number we think we have, making the point.

Way too many exchanges are of the Jolly Old/Ray variety. Yes, those two are the extreme (maybe), but they are by no means aliens or outliers of kind. Only of degree. More and more, all attempts at any real discussion of an issue degenerates into acrimony and name-calling, even to the point of threats and defamation. (Because I just knew you'd say that, you mother-dog.) People, too many posters, aren’t just uncouth. They’re all too often viciously personal. Some people actually seem to hate other people based on....what exactly? No one takes anything anyone says seriously anymore. It serves merely as a springboard for ad hominem, vituperation and invective.

The character attacks aren’t only off-topic off-topic, though. Objections are made at the top of one’s voice and tend to obsess over the agonizingly trivial. This place has become like a rabid animal. It needed to be put down.

   219. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 14, 2018 at 09:10 PM (#5787620)
Yeah but you’re a loony.
   220. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 14, 2018 at 09:14 PM (#5787621)
As usual, Morty's self-reflection skills are unsurpassed. It would've been too, too difficult for him to use the Ignore option.
   221. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 14, 2018 at 09:18 PM (#5787622)
That said, why don't I give you the option of cancelling at any point between now and the end of the year. Is that okay? And of course if it slips your mind and you want to cancel it sometime in January, I won't hold you to the 2018 deadline.**

Sure. I mean, I'm fine with keeping it, so let's just keep it.

We rag on each other all the time in OTP, but I hope you realize that in spite of all the heat and sarcasm, it's never been personal on my part. If I'd ever really meant it to be personal, I would've put you on Ignore, and I assume you'd have done the same.

Agreed.


Just saw this, Ray, and I'm glad you agree, even if we'll have to sweat the next election outside the now-unfriendly confines of BTF.
   222. Lassus Posted: November 14, 2018 at 09:30 PM (#5787625)
As we've descended into chaos:
Anthony Brindisi's final push to unseat Rep. Claudia Tenney in the 22nd Congressional District election will hinge on the two largest counties in the district, where the count of absentee ballots began today.

Brindisi, a Utica Democrat, held a 1,293-vote lead over Tenney, R-New Hartford, based on ballots cast at polling stations on Election Day.

The race will be decided by about 14,000 absentee ballots that have been returned to the eight counties in the district. The two largest counties -- Broome and Oneida -- began to open the sealed absentee ballots on Wednesday.
   223. PreservedFish Posted: November 14, 2018 at 09:36 PM (#5787626)
Hey. No politics.
   224. Lassus Posted: November 14, 2018 at 09:37 PM (#5787627)
That was like my third troll on this site, like, ever.

BRING IT, JIM
   225. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 14, 2018 at 09:44 PM (#5787628)
Anthony Brindisi's final push to unseat Rep. Claudia Tenney in the 22nd Congressional District election will hinge on the two largest counties in the district, where the count of absentee ballots began today.

Brindisi, a Utica Democrat, held a 1,293-vote lead over Tenney, R-New Hartford, based on ballots cast at polling stations on Election Day.

The race will be decided by about 14,000 absentee ballots that have been returned to the eight counties in the district. The two largest counties -- Broome and Oneida -- began to open the sealed absentee ballots on Wednesday.


It's unfair what they are doing. Gotta go with election night, amirite?

It would've been too, too difficult for him to use the Ignore option.


or, and I'm just spitballing here, not click on and comment in a thread he now claims he despised.



Sorry, couldn't resist. Won't happen again.
   226. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 14, 2018 at 09:50 PM (#5787631)
There was a lot of upset when the Lounge was exiled maybe 10 years ago now? And IIRC it was sent to the forums for some of the same reasons - Jim was getting complaints about off-color, sexually suggestive, etc. posts that had nothing to do with baseball, and it was easier for him to just carve out a separate area than to try to deal with it on a post-by-post/poster-by-poster basis.


I think it was the anal sex thread.
   227. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 14, 2018 at 09:53 PM (#5787632)
I personally think it was the bringing up of the Mormon thing that caused it all and virtually no one involved in OTP was part of that.

I wouldn't think that was it -- again, I don't know, I haven't talked with Jim -- because he was aware of that ten years ago (we both got that email) and he was the one who anonymized the person's name everywhere on the site.
   228. Zonk Can't Hide his Disdain or Disgust Posted: November 14, 2018 at 09:58 PM (#5787634)
Look, people should know.

Zonk has decided to give the Forums a go. Even now, he is consolidating support and bringing those who need to be brought to heel, to heel.

Brothers... and sister, if BBC is reading, I swear to you. One day, we will cross the narrow sea and retake the mainland to which we are the rightful inheritors.

This is but a small deceleration in the eternal bend towards justice.

Do not despair. Do not fret. We will not stop the wheel. We will break the wheel. This, I swear to you.
   229. Baldrick Posted: November 14, 2018 at 09:58 PM (#5787635)
Hey I have a request: please stop talking about politics here. And please stop talking about talking about politics.

The whole point of this thread is that it's just a fun place where people are nice and talk about stuff they like.
   230. Avoid Running At All Times- S. Paige Posted: November 14, 2018 at 10:00 PM (#5787636)
I think it was the anal sex thread


Christopher Hitchens’ list of most overrated things: picnics, champagne, lobster and...anal sex.
   231. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 14, 2018 at 10:00 PM (#5787637)
Hey I have a request: please stop talking about politics here. And please stop talking about talking about politics.

Fair enough, I'll kept the meta commentary there.
   232. Baldrick Posted: November 14, 2018 at 10:01 PM (#5787638)
Anyway, back on topic, I finally got my DVD player set back up so I can return to my Babylon 5 rewatch. I'm picking back up with the start of Season 4, and...boy do they move quickly at the start of this season. I'm not 100% sure what else should have been done, but the abruptness is really jarring.
   233. PreservedFish Posted: November 14, 2018 at 10:11 PM (#5787643)
Picnics might be my favorite thing in the world.
   234. Lassus Posted: November 14, 2018 at 10:12 PM (#5787645)
We're watching the third season of Versailles, which is awesomely trashy and fun, yet only being released one episode a week, which is maddening. I feel like it's ancient times, like 1996.
   235. Zonk Can't Hide his Disdain or Disgust Posted: November 14, 2018 at 10:15 PM (#5787648)
The whole point of this thread is that it's just a fun place where people are nice and talk about stuff they like.


I like you. When we retake the mainland, this shall be noted.
   236. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: November 14, 2018 at 10:17 PM (#5787649)
From what I gather, opinion seems to be split between the way I felt and "Unbelievably moving and inspirational!

]


I confess to having read multiple wrap-ups this afternoon (Rolling Stone, Vulture, AV Club) on the finale and you are correct. Lots of folks think this was a “jump the shark” moment. I admire the great risk it took to do something so totally different. The creators and cast are all roughly my age, and it is hard to believe they’ve been doing this for 13 MFing years. They themselves have to be in a completely different headspace from when they were in their late 20s.
   237. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 14, 2018 at 10:20 PM (#5787651)
I can return to my Babylon 5 rewatch. I'm picking back up with the start of Season 4, and...boy do they move quickly at the start of this season. I'm not 100% sure what else should have been done, but the abruptness is really jarring.


Well, as I understand it, the show runners were told that season 4 would be the last one, so they had to wrap everything up in one season. Then at the end of the season, they were told it was renewed for one more, leading to a crap season 4 finale, and a crap season 5, excepting the finale, which was filmed a year earlier as the finale of season 4.

Trying not to give away any spoilers, but in season 4, there is a clear break between the first half and the second half, in which one can clearly see that the story arcs could easily be extended into separate seasons.
   238. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 14, 2018 at 10:24 PM (#5787653)
I like you. When we retake the mainland, this shall be noted.


In the meantime, I'll be the Maquis. The WWII one, not the DS9 one.

Or maybe given that I live on a tropical island, a coastwatcher.
   239. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 14, 2018 at 10:44 PM (#5787662)
Here's a thought. Dan said he owes you a solid and and to contact him if there is any way he can make it up to you. Ask him to contact Jim, admit that he was the root cause of the latest dustup, and vow to never again darken OTP is he restores it.


? Dan has barely posted to OTP in the last few years.
   240. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 14, 2018 at 10:45 PM (#5787663)
Magnum PI remake? How are people liking it? I've seen three episodes. It's not terrible; it's watchable; but... is network tv just not very good?

I do like the female Higgins character and I actually think she steals the show. She's the best part of it in the early going.
   241. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 14, 2018 at 10:46 PM (#5787664)
? Dan has barely posted to OTP in the last few years.


I'd love to respond, but not here.
   242. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: November 14, 2018 at 11:31 PM (#5787678)
I had to double take this page, thinking I somehow ended up in OTP, then I thought OTP people were taking over Pop Culture thread. Please don't. This isn't one of those Andy Cohen shows either where we talk about what happened in OTP.
   243. Howie Menckel Posted: November 14, 2018 at 11:32 PM (#5787680)
Magnum PI remake? How are people liking it?

it's cotton candy.

the first year of Hawaii 5-0 reboot was much worse, but that show upgraded itself to ... well, cotton candy.

these are the shows to set your DVR to watch around 10 pm on a Friday night, when you are consciously trying to turn your brain into mush before you fall asleep. it does the job, so it's basically a sleep aid.
   244. Baldrick Posted: November 14, 2018 at 11:55 PM (#5787687)
Well, as I understand it, the show runners were told that season 4 would be the last one, so they had to wrap everything up in one season. Then at the end of the season, they were told it was renewed for one more, leading to a crap season 4 finale, and a crap season 5, excepting the finale, which was filmed a year earlier as the finale of season 4.

The thing about the abruptness of season 4 is that I don't think they actually NEEDED a fifth season to hit all the notes they wanted to hit. The problem isn't a lack of time per se, it's the way in which things got jammed together. Basically, if they had known a year earlier that it would only be four seasons, I think JMS could have woven all the elements together in a more satisfying way. But once it was a rush job, he ended up just pushing some of the pieces back, rather than trying to juggle everything all at the same time. For example, the stuff back on Minbar really ought to have been seeded much earlier. But in the crunch, it got put on the backburner and then when it finally got moved up. And the conclusion to the Shadow War also didn't really NEED any additional plot pieces. But in the rush to get through it as quickly as possible, it ended up feeling more disjointed and incomplete than it really needed to be.
   245. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 15, 2018 at 12:05 AM (#5787688)
The thing about the abruptness of season 4 is that I don't think they actually NEEDED a fifth season to hit all the notes they wanted to hit. The problem isn't a lack of time per se, it's the way in which things got jammed together. Basically, if they had known a year earlier that it would only be four seasons, I think JMS could have woven all the elements together in a more satisfying way. But once it was a rush job, he ended up just pushing some of the pieces back, rather than trying to juggle everything all at the same time. For example, the stuff back on Minbar really ought to have been seeded much earlier. But in the crunch, it got put on the backburner and then when it finally got moved up. And the conclusion to the Shadow War also didn't really NEED any additional plot pieces. But in the rush to get through it as quickly as possible, it ended up feeling more disjointed and incomplete than it really needed to be.


I think we basically agree. Season 4 could have been all about the conclusion of the Shadow War, and sowing the seeds of the Mimbari Civil War, and season 5 could have been about the conclusion of the Mimbari Civil war, the liberation of Earth, and the creation of the Alliance. Having it all jammed together into one season made it really clunky. And even then, it seems they wasted 3 episodes with Sheridan in the cave with Lorien. but maybe that was before they got notice that it would be the final season.

Still a good watch though.
   246. DEFCON: jive Posted: November 15, 2018 at 12:33 AM (#5787690)
Picnics might be my favorite thing in the world.


I gotta ask. I am definitely closer to Hitchens than to this sentiment. I love the idea of the picnic, but when I'm on the ground, covered in ants, eating a lukewarm meal and I can't find the wine opener and my back is killing me, well, that's every picnic I've ever been on. I love nature. I am a professional cook. I do not like to mix the two. What exactly do you like about them?
   247. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 15, 2018 at 01:17 AM (#5787693)
It's been more than seven hours since Jacob DeGrom and his 10-9 record won the Cy Young Award, and no thread has been posted yet on BTF's Newsstand. But it's something else that's "killing this website." Uh huh.

(It's okay to say that on this thread, because DeGrom has an IMDB page.)

And picnics are like having sex on the beach. Good in theory, but the reality always falls short of the reputation.
   248. Lassus Posted: November 15, 2018 at 07:04 AM (#5787699)
It's been more than seven hours since Jacob DeGrom and his 10-9 record won the Cy Young Award, and no thread has been posted yet on BTF's Newsstand. But it's something else that's "killing this website." Uh huh.

Right. I looked yesterday and then had to shout it from the rooftops... in zenbitz's thread that has 12 people in in so far.

Whether consciously or subconsciously, Jim wants the site gone. Because the way he's operating it can't be explained any other way.
   249. Lassus Posted: November 15, 2018 at 07:06 AM (#5787700)
In other news, I'm almost at the end of season II of the Good Place. I know there's a season 3, it will be curious how long the whole thing can be sustained.

I was initially wondering if PF's picnic statement was sarcasm.
   250. PreservedFish Posted: November 15, 2018 at 07:15 AM (#5787702)
My statement was not at all sarcasm. I ####### love picnics. Will elaborate later.
   251. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 15, 2018 at 07:23 AM (#5787704)
So now there’s no place to discuss the multiple reports that Fat Donnie really did alienate our allies in France because he was worried the rain would ruin his ridiculously over-engineered combover. That really is sad.
   252. Lassus Posted: November 15, 2018 at 07:27 AM (#5787705)
There's always the DeGrom Cy thread.
   253. Swoboda is freedom Posted: November 15, 2018 at 07:40 AM (#5787710)
Overrated things
Beaches in general-sand everywhere
Convertibles
Lobster- rubbery and tasteless without butter. Everything tastes good with butter
Caviar-awful and salty
Barbeque-okay food
Summer weather-usually too hot. September usually nicer



I like champagne. It doesn't have to be only for special occasions vicious hangover tho.
   254. McCoy Posted: November 15, 2018 at 07:43 AM (#5787711)
Clouds. Eff clouds, amirite?
   255. McCoy Posted: November 15, 2018 at 07:48 AM (#5787712)
Overrated things
Comic book movies. MCU is just not that good
Pretty much any pop restaurant that bubbles up onto any of the various user and hipster media lists.
Bacon
Kale
Bourbon

   256. Zonk Can't Hide his Disdain or Disgust Posted: November 15, 2018 at 08:45 AM (#5787721)
Overrated things
Comic book movies. MCU is just not that good
Pretty much any pop restaurant that bubbles up onto any of the various user and hipster media lists.
Bacon
Kale
Bourbon


Four of these are exactly right - well, three of these... one, I don't know that anyone highly rates to begin with, but whatever.

However, one of them is just terribly, awfully wrong that I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul.
   257. Swoboda is freedom Posted: November 15, 2018 at 08:57 AM (#5787723)
Overrated things
Comic book movies. MCU is just not that good
Pretty much any pop restaurant that bubbles up onto any of the various user and hipster media lists.
Bacon
Kale
Bourbon


How can kale be overrated? In order to be overrated, people have to say they like it. No one likes kale. Some people tolerate it because it is supposed to be a super food.
   258. BrianBrianson Posted: November 15, 2018 at 08:58 AM (#5787724)
Lobster- rubbery and tasteless without butter. Everything tastes good with butter


If it's rubbery, you're cooking it way too much.

Which jives with you thinking it's tasteless too. I guess that's prison cooking for you.
   259. Nasty Nate Posted: November 15, 2018 at 09:04 AM (#5787725)
Yeah, if it's rubbery and tasteless, something went wrong. I usually don't even use butter.

That being said, it probably is overrated.
   260. BrianBrianson Posted: November 15, 2018 at 09:27 AM (#5787730)
Relative to crab, which is typically cheaper, yes, overrated. Although the Lobster at Fishman Lobster Clubhouse is worth the large amount of money you pay (they went there on Ugly Delicious, so it's pop-culture-y).
   261. BrianBrianson Posted: November 15, 2018 at 09:31 AM (#5787734)
Bourbon, I'll give you though. Like, if a whisky is not a cask strength Islay, can you even taste it? What's the point?

Okay, I did get some Isle of Skye 57 North ... and it's pretty nice. A bit subtle, but I'm okay with that.
   262. Swoboda is freedom Posted: November 15, 2018 at 09:33 AM (#5787736)
Crab is much better than lobster, which is artificially kept at a high price at restaurants and has nothing to do with cost. All you have to know about lobster is that indentured servants had limits as to how much lobster could be served to them.
   263. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: November 15, 2018 at 09:41 AM (#5787739)
In the absence of a much-needed OT:W(eather) thread, I will note that as I was walking from my car in to work about 30 minutes ago, tiny bits of snow were swirling in the air. This is ... unusual in central Alabama on Nov. 15.
   264. Zonk Can't Hide his Disdain or Disgust Posted: November 15, 2018 at 09:57 AM (#5787743)
flurries in Chicago... but we already had our first snow last week so no one cares.

And I love lobster bisque.
   265. BrianBrianson Posted: November 15, 2018 at 10:01 AM (#5787745)
Well, it's not really right that lobster prices are artificially high. Yes, lobster was the main protein source my grandfather ate when he was living in an orphanage ... in St. John, in the 1930s. Lobster became fashionable in the 1970s, which drove demand way up - and, transporting living lobsters across the continent ain't cheap. Lobster is not terribly pricey in St. John today, neither.

When swamp cabbage became fashionable, price went up.
   266. BrianBrianson Posted: November 15, 2018 at 10:03 AM (#5787747)
Hasn't snowed yet, but they're sending us home at 11:30, so I'm thinking it'll be the lightest of dustings.
   267. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 15, 2018 at 10:07 AM (#5787750)
86 degrees here. I can't wait for the day I can turn off the AC and open the windows for a couple of months.
   268. PreservedFish Posted: November 15, 2018 at 10:11 AM (#5787751)
So, on picnics.

First of all, eating outdoors is wonderful. If the weather is pleasant, I'll almost never choose to eat indoors if I can eat outdoors. Food tastes better outdoors. Wine tastes better outdoors. Beer does too.
Second of all, I love picnic food. I mean, really love. So much I've kind of made it my career. My first two jobs in the food industry were making and selling artisanal cheese. My third job was making charcuterie. I'm still involved in both industries. And then you have the crusty breads, good butter, the pickles, olives, sardines, smoked salmon, the fresh fruits and berries ... I love it all. And we haven't even cooked anything yet, but the possibilities just expand from there: dips, hearty vegetable-heavy salads. (And this is just the gourmet ####. Potato chips taste pretty good outdoors too)

Some of my best memories are picnics. On our honeymoon, we canoed the Dordogne River in SW France, trailing a half bottle of Sauternes in the water to keep it cool, pulled over to an empty river bank, and picnicked with fresh baguette, perfect strawberries, Agen prunes, fresh sheep's cheese, local hard salami. If you're going to let an ant or two ruin this experience, you're a god damn chump. The best meal of the trip - which featured several Michelin starred restaurants and other culinary destinations, like the home of cassoulet - may well have been a picnic at a farm in Provence, at a "restaurant" with no menu, just homemade hams, goat cheeses, bread, fruits, honey, lots and lots of the local rose, surrounded by olive trees and grape vines and farm animals.

We will frequently have picnics in our backyard - cook lunch or dinner indoors, set out the blanket, and stretch out with the kids. We get to lie down, enjoy nature, watch the clouds. The kids get to graze at their own pace, get up and shake off some energy, chase a butterfly, come back for more when they wish ... so much better and more natural than a stilted polite meal at the dining table or in a restaurant.

If I ever have a day to myself, I'll climb a mountain with a backpack full of gourmet treats, and loll at the summit with a view and a good book, slice off chunks of hard cheese with my pocketknife, contemplate stillness and beauty and all that rot. Can't get enough of it.
   269. McCoy Posted: November 15, 2018 at 10:21 AM (#5787755)
Relative to crab, which is typically cheaper, yes, overrated. Although the Lobster at Fishman Lobster Clubhouse is worth the large amount of money you pay (they went there on Ugly Delicious, so it's pop-culture-y).

I guess it depends on what crab you are buying and what lobster you are buying. Warm water lobsters generally are cheaper and Maine lobster is usually pretty cheap as well (relatively speaking). You can usually find Maine lobster in the store for about 7 to 9 dollars a pound (and during certain times and during bumper years I've seen the price go down to as low as $5 a pound). Now buying jumbo cold water tails can be expensive and is generally 4 to 8 times more expensive than your store available whole Maine lobsters. For crab meat fresh is hard to find in a lot of areas and usually very expensive. In DC fresh jumbo lump down at the wharf usually runs you around 25 to 27 dollars a pound. I think canned pasteurized jumbo lump is in the 18 to 21 dollar range. You can get cheaper stuff than that of course but it won't be jumbo lump or lump. You can go with soft shells and fresh in season will generally be pretty costly as well per pound. Or you can do the hard shell crabs whole as well which will probably be the cheapest way to go.
   270. McCoy Posted: November 15, 2018 at 10:26 AM (#5787757)
Crab is much better than lobster, which is artificially kept at a high price at restaurants and has nothing to do with cost. All you have to know about lobster is that indentured servants had limits as to how much lobster could be served to them.

Depends on what they are serving. If they are serving whole Maine lobsters and are charging you $100 they are definitely gouging you unless they're bringing out some 12 pound 50 year old badboy of a lobster. But if they are selling you a 16oz cold water lobster tail and charging $100 they aren't gouging you. Depending on where it is from, when, how much they are buying, and where the restaurant is those lobster tails are costing the restaurant anywhere from $40 to $60 per tail.
   271. PreservedFish Posted: November 15, 2018 at 10:32 AM (#5787763)
I also love kale. Top 10 vegetable for me.
   272. PreservedFish Posted: November 15, 2018 at 10:39 AM (#5787767)
Tying together several supposedly overrated things, one of my favorite activities this summer was having a picnic dinner of steamed lobsters on the beach in Maine.
   273. Nasty Nate Posted: November 15, 2018 at 10:44 AM (#5787773)
Yes, lobster was the main protein source my grandfather ate when he was living in an orphanage ... in St. John, in the 1930s.
That's an interesting background. I drive through there every year, at least I think it's St. John - it's often not visible through the fog.
   274. Graham & the 15-win "ARod Vortex of suck" Posted: November 15, 2018 at 10:46 AM (#5787775)
Top 10 vegetable


If you take into account both the vegetable as a centerpiece as well as its use in other dishes, then I'd say:

Collard greens, bok choy, onions, parsnips, Brussel sprouts, broccoli, green beans, mushrooms, capers, jalapeno
   275. McCoy Posted: November 15, 2018 at 10:50 AM (#5787778)
Lobster rolls are delicious. Nice simple toasted top roll bun, some perfectly cooked lobster meat, tossed with some warm butter, maybe some chives. . . mmmm, tasty.
   276. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: November 15, 2018 at 10:56 AM (#5787783)
Misirlou, I've had a lot of respect for you for a long time, but I just don't know any more.

Minbari. For the love of god. MINbari.
   277. BrianBrianson Posted: November 15, 2018 at 10:58 AM (#5787786)
Capers are not a vegetable.

Mushrooms are definitely not a vegetable.

Jalapenos are not a vegetable.

Get it together, Graham.

Of course, if you listed Onions ten times, I might've been on board.
   278. McCoy Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:05 AM (#5787794)
Well, if you view vegetables as the edible parts of plants then they are all vegetables. Though that wouldn't answer the mushroom dilemma.

Culinary wise pretty much all of his list would be considered vegetables except for probably capers. I don't think most people give capers enough thought to classify them as anything really.
   279. PreservedFish Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:12 AM (#5787800)
Capers, always salted or pickled, are obviously in a gray area.

But I would call mushrooms a vegetable. Jalapenos probably are. If they're not a vegetable, what are they?
   280. Zonk Can't Hide his Disdain or Disgust Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:16 AM (#5787802)
Vegetables are stupid, onions are the worst of the most awful of the stupid.

If tomatoes and corn count, that's two. Spinach is OK, that's three. Asparagus is tolerable that's four. Fill the remaining 6 spots with a variety of peppers. If peppers do not count, then the list probably stops at 4.

Onions - together with broccoli and cauliflower, probably a few others - really ought to get wiped from the earth by some kind of crappy vegetable plague.
   281. McCoy Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5787803)
Mushrooms are a fungus. I would guess he's classifying jalapenos as fruit but like I said all edible plants can be classified as vegetables and culinarily jalapenos are a vegetable.
   282. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5787806)
Overrated things
...
Barbeque-okay food


Wow, just.....no.

Okay, bourbon fans, I need to restock, and will be looking for something in the $25-$35 range. I usually go Four Roses, but am considering something that is Bottled in Bond. Worth it? Any recommendations?
   283. McCoy Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:21 AM (#5787808)
Tomatoes, corn, spinach, asparagus, broccoli, brussel sprouts, carrots, potatoes, onions, garlic, peas.
   284. McCoy Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:25 AM (#5787813)
Okay, bourbon fans, I need to restock, and will be looking for something in the $25-$35 range. I usually go Four Roses, but am considering something that is Bottled in Bond. Worth it? Any recommendations?

Bottled in bond isn't really a thing that one would need to seek out. But I believe 1792 is BiB and is at that price. If you're drinking Four Roses single barrel it might not be your cup of tea but it is inline ABV wise with small batch.
   285. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:30 AM (#5787817)
Okay, bourbon fans, I need to restock, and will be looking for something in the $25-$35 range. I usually go Four Roses, but am considering something that is Bottled in Bond. Worth it? Any recommendations?

Four Roses small batch? I've had that. It's good.

For value/quality balance I still haven't found anything to beat Makers Mark. I can get a 1.75 L for $54.99. That comes out to $23.50 per fifth.
   286. BrianBrianson Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:42 AM (#5787826)
Jalapenos are not really a culinary vegetable. You don't sit down to jalapeno soup, or jalapeno salad, or a nice bowl of roast jalapenos. Even I don't do that, and I make my hot sauce out of scotch bonnets, vinegar, salt, and warnings from Jamaican grandmothers.

Black pepper is a dried fruit. But it's not culinarily a fruit or vegetable.

Onions - together with broccoli and cauliflower, probably a few others - really ought to get wiped from the earth by some kind of crappy vegetable plague.


Hey, woah, we just had one thread closed for threatening to stab each other in the neck, let's not add another.

Though I don't much care for broccoli. I don't really impulse-buy vegetables outside of onions, tomatos, and potatoes. Oh, certainly Brussel Sprouts if they're looking good. Courgettes and cucumbers are fine, but not worth worrying about. I know a good place for asparagus when it's in season. I'll buy okra and most squash if they look good (though spaghetti squash ain't much for the plate). Cauliflower is brilliant, but you need a plan. Sometimes I gotta deal with eggplant as my wife likes to buy it, but I don't much see the point. Peas - I always have frozen peas on hand. Corn, if it's good and season, is an excellent barbeque foor. Carrots, and parsnips, are excellent, sure. Don't much see the point in bitter melon. Outside of ramps, can't say I much enjoy green leaves. Especially like the rocket craze - nuts. Spinich does okay, cooked well down. Like in a soup or something. Anything starchy, of course - potatoes, both regular and sweet. Plantains. I'd save taro for boba every time, but it's fine.
   287. BrianBrianson Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:44 AM (#5787828)
Okay, bourbon fans, I need to restock, and will be looking for something in the $25-$35 range. I usually go Four Roses, but am considering something that is Bottled in Bond. Worth it? Any recommendations?


If you like Barbeque, maybe abandon bourbon and go for Ardbeg 10.

I'm just saying (though here I do usually pay $45-$50 for a 26er.
   288. Lassus Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:44 AM (#5787829)
Okay, bourbon fans, I need to restock, and will be looking for something in the $25-$35 range. I usually go Four Roses, but am considering something that is Bottled in Bond. Worth it? Any recommendations?

As someone who only uses bourbon for flavoring eggnog (1 tsp.) and making pound cake, I strongly stand by Jefferson small batch. (My wife, who actually drinks, also likes it.)


Spinich does okay, cooked well down. Like in a soup or something.

This is odd to me. I certainly love various spinach soups, but once I replaced romaine with leafy spinach in my sandwiches and salads, I never went back.
   289. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5787830)
Onions - together with broccoli and cauliflower, probably a few others - really ought to get wiped from the earth by some kind of crappy vegetable plague.

I love onions! But I agree with you on the other two. God, the smell of those even. My mom used to always make cauliflower casserole for Thanksgiving and the whole house would smell of baby vomit mixed with armpits.
   290. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:47 AM (#5787832)
In that price range, I always used to like Eagle Rare 10. Sadly, I can't drink hard liquor much anymore because of what it does to my stomach.
   291. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:48 AM (#5787833)
Onions - together with broccoli and cauliflower, probably a few others - really ought to get wiped from the earth by some kind of crappy vegetable plague.

Onions are the fundamental basis of like every savory thing that tastes good.

Fun fact: cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, kale, Brussels sprouts, and collard greens are all the same plant species.
   292. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5787834)
Sometimes I gotta deal with eggplant as my wife likes to buy it, but I don't much see the point.


Eggplant parmigiana is one of my favorite dishes.
   293. Lassus Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:50 AM (#5787835)
Onions - together with broccoli and cauliflower.
I love onions! But I agree with you on the other two.


Another oddity for me. I was insanely anti-vegetable until I was about 35, but I love cooked/steamed broccoli with my meals now, especially various beefs and steak. (To be fair, I can only stand cauliflower as a good soup.)
   294. Lassus Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:51 AM (#5787836)
Yeah, I gotta be anti-PF on kale. Tried a kale salad last night, just awful.
   295. McCoy Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5787844)
Jalapenos are not really a culinary vegetable. You don't sit down to jalapeno soup, or jalapeno salad, or a nice bowl of roast jalapenos.

That's a weird criteria to be considered a vegetable. Roasted chilies are a thing. There are soups of course made with chilies and there are plenty of salads that use chilies.

Roasted poblanos
Taco salad
Black bean soup/Cheese & Jalapeno soup/Tortilla soup so on and so on.

There are plenty of vegetables that if you made them the main point of the salad or soup they would be lackluster. I wouldn't want a bell pepper salad or soup. I wouldn't want an eggplant soup or salad either. Of course others might but there a lot of vegetables that are not popular as main focal points.
   296. PreservedFish Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5787845)
It would have tasted good if I made it
   297. McCoy Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5787846)
Yeah, I gotta be anti-PF on kale. Tried a kale salad last night, just awful.

The only way I've found kale to ok is if you make it unhealthy. Corporate mandated a salad to all their units and it was the 50/50 salad which was half romaine, half kale, Caesar dressing, cheese, croutons, and I think bacon.
   298. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5787847)
It’s weird that there’s a beloved pop culture character whose entire story is “he likes to steal pick-a-nick baskets.”

Like, try explaining that to a teenager right now.
   299. PreservedFish Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:57 AM (#5787848)
Fat is healthy again, guys.
   300. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 15, 2018 at 12:06 PM (#5787852)
Now peppers, those are the most ubiquitous and unnecessary ingredients out there. I've become aware of this b/c my MIL is deathly allergic to capsaicin. Like she'll stop breathing.

Peppers are in freaking everything, and completely unnecessary to make anything.
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