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Monday, December 12, 2016

OT - December 2016 NBA thread

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of whom are capable of submitting a monthly thread to avoid detracting from what this site is really about:  quoting old posts from Dilbert’s blog.

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: December 12, 2016 at 04:35 PM | 2661 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   1. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 12, 2016 at 08:22 PM (#5367297)
Bulls considered giving up Jimmy Butler before draft to acquire Kris Dunn

Unless they were discussing other major pieces, that would have been such an awful deal even if Butler was playing like last year.
   2. jmurph Posted: December 12, 2016 at 09:06 PM (#5367310)
re: the Marcus Smart love fest on the previous page, man, I don't know. Every time I catch myself thinking he's got potential I remember he's a 3rd year tweener who just flat out can't shoot. And I think you have to be a lot better at the other things than he is to pull that off and still be valuable. I mean I like the defense and other secondary stuff, too, but I don't know.
   3. Dock Ellis Posted: December 12, 2016 at 09:23 PM (#5367314)
The score of the Patriots game tonight was 2-0 for awhile. That was mildly interesting.
   4. PASTE does not get put on waivers in August Posted: December 12, 2016 at 09:23 PM (#5367315)
I have trouble imagining what a Bulls-Wolves trade involving Butler would look like, even before he took a level this season. I guess that's because the Wolves ain't trading Towns, Rubio or Dunn would be far too light, and I don't know how to value Wiggins.
   5. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 12, 2016 at 09:29 PM (#5367316)
Trade would have been with the Celtics for the 3rd pick (and maybe more?), not the Wolves.
   6. JJ1986 Posted: December 12, 2016 at 09:36 PM (#5367318)
I'm sure the Celtics would have been giving up another big piece in the deal. Probably the 2018 Nets pick, maybe Crowder or Bradley too. The Bulls asked for Kris Dunn and Zach Lavine from Minnesota.
   7. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: December 12, 2016 at 11:13 PM (#5367339)
[6] if that rumor is real, the Wolves should have jumped at it IMO
   8. Dock Ellis Posted: December 12, 2016 at 11:37 PM (#5367345)
Wait #### sorry wrong thread
   9. covelli chris p Posted: December 12, 2016 at 11:38 PM (#5367346)
on the one hand, marcus smart makes plays on defense like no other guard that i can remember. he's as good as it gets at fighting through screens, and is really good at staying in front of his guy while still getting in their face. and his anticipation is amazing.

on the other hand, he simply can't shoot the ball. he's basically tony allen, but with some ballhandling ability.
   10. Eddie Hart Posted: December 13, 2016 at 07:02 AM (#5367383)
he's basically tony allen, but with some ballhandling ability.


And he plays under control. You never know what Allen will do. Allen's a jumble of uncontrolled energy.
   11. Hank G. Posted: December 13, 2016 at 01:14 PM (#5367619)
I hadn’t watched NBA since Larry Bird retired, but I have to say I’ve gotten a new appreciation for the game once I heard about and started watching the SF Warriors and Stephen Curry. He and Klay Thompson have taken the three-point shot to a new level. Rather than being “the big bodies muscling in close”game that I remember, they have opened up the floor with a mixture of threes and people cutting in for the easy layups. At least, that’s how I see it. It’s a much more interesting game than I remember.
   12. Eddie Hart Posted: December 13, 2016 at 01:42 PM (#5367654)
At least, that’s how I see it. It’s a much more interesting game than I remember.


It's different, that's for sure. I guess interesting is in the eye of the beholder but I like today's game. Lots of passing and emphasis on basketball skills like shooting, cutting and ball handling. The days of Charles Oakley are gone, thank goodness.
   13. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: December 13, 2016 at 01:45 PM (#5367658)
Have you guys have seen this new searchable, play-by-play video database? I believe it covers every game from the current season, with updates typically added by noon the next day. It's an incredible tool for time-wasting. Enjoy!
   14. STIGGLES don't want to talk about cracker barrel Posted: December 13, 2016 at 02:52 PM (#5367719)
There are 8 teams within 1 loss of the worst record in the NBA.
   15. jmurph Posted: December 13, 2016 at 03:34 PM (#5367758)
There are 8 teams within 1 loss of the worst record in the NBA.

Parity achieved!
   16. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: December 13, 2016 at 03:37 PM (#5367761)
We talked a bit about the Jimmy rumors around the draft. Neither the 3 or 5 were enough on their own for him - but neither the C's or Wolves (they were a fallback, and in fact, a number of reporters on draft night said there was a deal; I think that was leaks from Min to pressure the Bulls) had another piece that made sense for both teams; i.e. Wiggins and 5 is probably too much from the Wolves end (though this year is proving it wouldn't be, plus Wiggins will be more expensive than Jimmy soon enough) and from a timeline, it doesn't really make sense to get the older guy now. None of the C's deal made sense, because you wouldn't think they'd want to pair Dunn with Smart or Bradley.

---

IOW, I think Jimmy rumors were overblown. The Bulls were fine with them out there because they thought Jimmy was getting too big of a heah; other teams acted as if he was more available than he really was. IMHO, of course.
   17. STIGGLES don't want to talk about cracker barrel Posted: December 13, 2016 at 04:53 PM (#5367826)
This is exceptional

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/kristaps-porzingis-stumps-santa-native-latvian-espn-ad-article-1.2901183
   18. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: December 13, 2016 at 06:18 PM (#5367876)
K.C. Johnson ‏@KCJHoop 10m10 minutes ago
Bulls will acknowledge Tom Thibodeau's return during lineup introductions but have no video tribute planned.


Pau Gasol got a video tribute when he came back with the Spurs last week. He spent 2, decent but not great, years here. Kirk Hinrich has gotten 2 different video tributes, and will likely get a third or something ceremonial when he officially retires, most likely a one-day deal with the Bulls sort of thing (I assume he hasn't officially retired simply because this hasn't happened yet).

Stay petty, Bulls.
   19. jmurph Posted: December 14, 2016 at 09:35 AM (#5368042)
The Hawks, wow. How do you give up 131 points in a regulation game to the Orlando Magic? That's embarrassing.
   20. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: December 14, 2016 at 10:32 AM (#5368102)
Bulls blew a 21 point first half lead to the Wolves, at home. That's also pretty embarrassing. Bulls now have beaten the Cavs and Spurs, and lost to the Mavs and Wolves (both of whom had worst record at the time of the game).
   21. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: December 14, 2016 at 10:42 AM (#5368113)
I have been watching some Bulls games on WGN. They need to trade Rondo to the Harlem Globetrotters or something. On every possession he is looking for a chance to throw an alley-oop and half of them hit the backboard and half of the rest just get caught by the other team because there are already 7 men under the basket. Guess what, you are throwing these lobs to Taj Gibson and Nikola Mirotic, not Dominique Wilkins.
   22. Eddie Hart Posted: December 14, 2016 at 10:55 AM (#5368127)
Bulls blew a 21 point first half lead to the Wolves, at home. That's also pretty embarrassing. Bulls now have beaten the Cavs and Spurs, and lost to the Mavs and Wolves (both of whom had worst record at the time of the game).


I watched the game. My impressions:

-The reason the Bulls lost is because they lack depth.

-Rubio's inability to shoot, or even his willingness to take a 15 footer, is a real problem for Minnesota. Another Rondo, without the ability to attack the rim.

-Zach Lavine is a freakishly talented player who may or may not develop into a superstar, depending on whether he can develop the discipline to harness and refine his talent.

-Wiggins is making real progress with his outside shot.

- Wade continues to annoy me. First, he probably lost the game for them by shooting an airball three, then failed to get back on defense while Lavine broke for the rim and got a layup on a gorgeous lead pass from Rubio. Then, he attacked the rim, got his shot blacked and got tech'd up and tossed after ######## at the ref.

It was a fun game to watch, but must have sucked if you were a Bulls fan.

   23. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: December 14, 2016 at 11:22 AM (#5368142)
-The reason the Bulls lost is because they lack depth.

FWIW, they are without their top 2 PGs on the depth chart (Rondo, MCW). While you'll never hear me singing their praises, neither Grant or Canaan are consistent enough to truly be better than the top 2. The Bulls bench consistently gets outscored (the announcers locally harp on this too much because for years the Bulls' bench was always so strong), but with Valentine not showing anything yet, Portis having majorly regressed, Mirotic turning into an inconsistent pumpkin, and McDermott hurt, the Bulls haven't done a good job refreshing the bottom half of the roster. Last night, the Bulls closed the game with a Wade/Butler/McDougie/Gibson/Lopez lineup that I kind of liked, but that didn't do enough because of:

- Wade continues to annoy me. First, he probably lost the game for them by shooting an airball three, then failed to get back on defense while Lavine broke for the rim and got a layup on a gorgeous lead pass from Rubio. Then, he attacked the rim, got his shot blacked and got tech'd up and tossed after ######## at the ref.

With Wade shooting the 3, it was on Butler to get back and he just stood there watching the airball. That layup is on Jimmy. But yeah, those two Wade possessions were terrible, and down the stretch it all too often turns into Wade and Butler taking turns going iso instead of running an offense.

I've been very surprised/impressed with Wade overall this year. He's not what he used to be, but he's fit in wonderfully with Butler, and they compliment each other well; I think it's not a coincidence that Butler is having a career year playing with Wade. Hoiberg splits them up with the bench groups, partially to space Wade's minutes, and Wade's outside shooting (34% on 3's) has been a real plus.
   24. King Mekong Posted: December 14, 2016 at 12:33 PM (#5368187)
Great article about how the Kawhisolation impacts the total spurs defense.
   25. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 14, 2016 at 03:48 PM (#5368341)
#24 - that is really interesting. Thanks.
   26. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: December 14, 2016 at 03:59 PM (#5368357)
Mike McGraw ‏@McGrawDHBulls 16m16 minutes ago
In last nine games, #Bulls have shot 22.5% from 3-point range. Second-worst team in that span is Lakers at 30.5%


This is something everyone expected coming into the season. McDermott was hurt during that, but that also points to the issue here.
   27. STIGGLES don't want to talk about cracker barrel Posted: December 14, 2016 at 05:06 PM (#5368416)
Trade machine: who says no?

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=gtrc9nj
   28. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 14, 2016 at 05:40 PM (#5368441)
Trade machine: who says no?


I don't love it from a Wolves perspective and dislike it for the Nuggets. Works for the 76ers though.
   29. JC in DC Posted: December 14, 2016 at 06:50 PM (#5368486)
Porzingis is really good, if y'all haven't notice. Melo ... not so much.
   30. Eddie Hart Posted: December 14, 2016 at 07:49 PM (#5368521)
Here's this year's WS/48 top 20:

1. Chris Paul • LAC .317
2. Kevin Durant • GSW .280
3. Jimmy Butler • CHI .278
4. James Harden • HOU .263
5. Kevin Love • CLE .249
6. Rudy Gobert • UTA .249
7. Kawhi Leonard • SAS .248
8. Stephen Curry • GSW .245
9. LeBron James • CLE .234
10. Mike Conley • MEM .218
11. Anthony Davis • NOP .216
12. Kyle Lowry • TOR .215
13. Giannis Antetokounmpo • MIL .213
14. Gordon Hayward • UTA .212
15. Russell Westbrook • OK .203
16. Isaiah Thomas • BOS .203
17. Enes Kanter • OKC .194
18. Damian Lillard • POR .194
19. Draymond Green • GSW .194
20. DeAndre Jordan • LAC .193

Some comments:

-Love finally seems to have found his groove playing with LeBron
-You would think Westbrook should be higher but the turnovers and inefficient shooting are taking him down.
-I'm really surprised Butler is so high. I knew he was good but I didn't realize he'd been playing at that level.
-Gobert seems to have arrived.
-Conley, wow. Ahead of Anthony Davis.
-It looks like, if you want to win it all, you need at least two guys over .200, or at least damn close, and another guy who's up there too. (in case you were wondering, Irving is at .167 and Thompson .166).
   31. CFBF Is The Victim of Unfathomable Pinheadery Posted: December 14, 2016 at 08:28 PM (#5368543)
   32. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: December 14, 2016 at 09:43 PM (#5368563)
Somehow, looking at that list, it just hit me that Steph Curry's name is "Stephen". Not Stephan or Stephon. Just Stephen. Why isn't it pronounced normally? He should be Steve Curry.
   33. vagab0nd is still a champion Posted: December 14, 2016 at 09:49 PM (#5368565)
he pronounces it steph-en, so that's why he's steph. it's his dad's middle name (wardell stephen curry), so it's a family name. not sure who initially pronounced it that way.

eta: actually, it's steph's middle name too. steph is wardell stephen curry ii (mystery #2, why is he the second and not junior??)

mystery iii: why doesn't he have curry ii on the back of his jersey?
   34. Booey Posted: December 14, 2016 at 10:30 PM (#5368574)
FAVORS IS BACK!!! AND HOOD!!!

Once Hill gets healthy, I'll be a happy man.
   35. Booey Posted: December 14, 2016 at 11:34 PM (#5368602)
No trip-dub for you tonight, Russ!

Jazz now pull a game ahead of the Thunder for the (very) early division lead. What's the current rule for winning your division? Is it still a guaranteed top 4 seed?
   36. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: December 14, 2016 at 11:42 PM (#5368609)
Somehow, looking at that list, it just hit me that Steph Curry's name is "Stephen". Not Stephan or Stephon. Just Stephen. Why isn't it pronounced normally? He should be Steve Curry.

This is why.
   37. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 15, 2016 at 12:56 AM (#5368616)
Really thought the Lakers could pull the game out tonight, but their weakness inside just killed them again. 19 offensive boards to one of the worst offensive rebounding teams in the league? Ugh! The book on the Lakers is out, everyone knows the way to go at them is inside.
   38. maccoach57 Posted: December 15, 2016 at 02:14 AM (#5368627)
Lowe on Utah:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18273165/zach-lowe-utah-jazz-gordon-hayward-rudy-gobert-nba
   39. Booey Posted: December 15, 2016 at 12:00 PM (#5368886)
Here's this year's WS/48 top 20:

1. Chris Paul • LAC .317
2. Kevin Durant • GSW .280
3. Jimmy Butler • CHI .278
4. James Harden • HOU .263
5. Kevin Love • CLE .249
6. Rudy Gobert • UTA .249
7. Kawhi Leonard • SAS .248
8. Stephen Curry • GSW .245
9. LeBron James • CLE .234
10. Mike Conley • MEM .218
11. Anthony Davis • NOP .216
12. Kyle Lowry • TOR .215
13. Giannis Antetokounmpo • MIL .213
14. Gordon Hayward • UTA .212
15. Russell Westbrook • OK .203
16. Isaiah Thomas • BOS .203
17. Enes Kanter • OKC .194
18. Damian Lillard • POR .194
19. Draymond Green • GSW .194
20. DeAndre Jordan • LAC .193

-It looks like, if you want to win it all, you need at least two guys over .200, or at least damn close, and another guy who's up there too


So...you're saying there's a chance!
   40. Booey Posted: December 15, 2016 at 12:01 PM (#5368887)
#38 - Great article. Thanks for that, rr.

I liked what Lowe said about Hayward not really being the #1 type guy you usually need for a championship team:

So what? How many championship-level No. 1 options are there, really? Three? A half-dozen? What are you supposed to do if you don't get one? Tank over and over, until you win the lottery in the right season? Cross your fingers that the next generational superstar will be born nearby and want to play for his hometown team aside from the occasional stint at the beach?


He also mentioned as a possible best case scenario for the Jazz the 2004 Pistons, another defense oriented team made up of supposedly second tier stars who combined into something greater. It's not a perfect comp, IMO; the Pistons had some advantages the Jazz don't. They played in a bad East that basically awarded them a free ride to the conference finals every year. To win a title at the time they'd generally just need to beat two 50 win teams. The Jazz would need to beat 3 or 4. Also, Billups really was a top flight superstar - just as good with both peak and career as Steve Nash - even if no one realized it at the time. Overall though, I like the comparison. Plus as Eddie's list in #30 shows, maybe Gobert and/or Hayward really are developing into legit all stars.

Another contender made up of very good players but no true superstars that always comes to my mind is the 1999 and 2000 Blazers, who went 35-15 (pace for 57-25) and 59-23 with a core of Sabonis, 'Sheed, Damon Stoudamire, Brian Grant, and JR Rider, plus Scottie Pippen for the 2000 squad (still good but well past his prime). They reached the WCF both years and even took the 67 win, eventual champion Lakers down to the wire in 2000.

It's rare, but teams without a top 10 caliber player can sometimes compete for titles.
   41. STIGGLES don't want to talk about cracker barrel Posted: December 15, 2016 at 12:55 PM (#5368928)
hayward combines the offense of andre iguodala with the defense of paul pierce, which, you know, fine, but also, m'eh.

i think utah would really benefit from adding an 0-guard like lou williams. they have ability to cover up his deficiencies with gobert guarding the rim and george hill being capable of cross matching, and his offensive skill is lightyears ahead of exum or mack. on that team, he has the potential to be the difference between winning and losing a round in the playoffs.
   42. Booey Posted: December 15, 2016 at 01:18 PM (#5368956)
#41 - Hayward is a better 3pt shooter and a much better free throw shooter than prime Iggy. I'd rank him as the more reliable offensive threat for sure.
   43. Tin Angel Posted: December 15, 2016 at 03:37 PM (#5369095)
Rest in peace Craig Sager.
   44. covelli chris p Posted: December 15, 2016 at 04:49 PM (#5369170)
i think utah would really benefit from adding an 0-guard like lou williams. t
they already have iso joe. i think he gets them what somebody like lou williams does with a bunch more flexibility on both ends.
   45. Howie Menckel Posted: December 15, 2016 at 04:51 PM (#5369176)
   46. STIGGLES don't want to talk about cracker barrel Posted: December 15, 2016 at 04:55 PM (#5369182)
I love being a sixers fan:

"WATCH: BEN SIMMONS DOING BASKETBALL THINGS AFTER SIXERS PRACTICE"
   47. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: December 15, 2016 at 06:06 PM (#5369260)
Aw, man. RIP, Sager.
   48. Der-K: downgraded to lurker Posted: December 15, 2016 at 06:38 PM (#5369266)
Rockets make Donatas a UFA.
   49. Eddie Hart Posted: December 15, 2016 at 07:10 PM (#5369273)
RIP Sager.

I grew up with the dude. It won't be quite the same without him.
   50. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: December 15, 2016 at 08:15 PM (#5369300)
RIP Sager, :(.

Primer RT... wonder what the story is.


Dennis Rodman ‏@dennisrodman 3h3 hours ago
Craig Sager thanks for saving my life when I was in dire need of help in Detroit back in 1993. Condolences to your family. RIP my friend.
   51. Eddie Hart Posted: December 15, 2016 at 09:41 PM (#5369327)
Primer RT... wonder what the story is.


Yeah, I saw that too and was wondering as well.

So I googled a little and found this:

Craig Sager Helped Talk Dennis Rodman Out of Committing Suicide in 1993.

   52. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 15, 2016 at 10:38 PM (#5369349)
R.I.P. Sager. I hope Aldridge or someone takes up the jackets in tribute. I'll miss the jackets.

Also, for Booey: Kobe Bryant Tutored Gordon Hayward on Midrange Game:
He quietly reached out to Kobe Bryant to see if the retired superstar might tutor him on the art of the midrange. He ended up spending a week with Bryant in Newport Beach. “He’s one of the best to ever do it,” Hayward said, “and it was one of my best weeks ever.”

It paid off. Hayward is having a career season. He’s a legit All-Star candidate who does everything well. He powers through contact, and shoots his mid-rangers with a little less lean. His core is so solid, he widened his stance at the foul line to improve his balance; Hayward is shooting a career-best 89 percent from the stripe.
   53. STIGGLES don't want to talk about cracker barrel Posted: December 16, 2016 at 11:29 AM (#5369539)
The league has sought to increase the age limit to 20; the union has resisted that and would prefer no limit or a rule similar to that of Major League Baseball.

The union sought a so-called “zero and two” compromise that would allow high schoolers in the NBA Draft but keep college players from declaring until after their sophomore season in college.

here's my counter-proposal:
1, all players are eligible to be drafted
2, expand the draft to 5 rounds
3, NBA teams control the draft rights of a player indefinitely
4, NBA teams can control the rights of a maximum of 5 non-NBA prospects (euro and college) and must renounce all others
5, players can be redrafted after a team renounces their draft rights, but not by a team who's already renounced them.
6, NBA teams maintain the Dleague rights of a renounced draft pick until he's drafted by another team or plays in 20 NBA games
7, a player becomes ineligible to be redrafted once they debut in the Dleague.

the nominal reason why baseball players can be drafted and still go to college, but basketball players can't is because the NBA forces players to declare for their draft. this proposal takes that justification away.

anyone who's good enough to play in the NBA can get into the NBA
players who need more time to develop would have the opportunity to do that, too

i think the most important thing for the NBA is to ensure the continued strength of NCAA basketball. i would love it if the Dleague would overtake top tier NCAA teams, but it's not gonna happen and trying to force it happen would cost hundreds of millions of dollars and it would still fail.
   54. Booey Posted: December 16, 2016 at 11:40 AM (#5369554)
#52 - Thanks, Hombre!

I rolled my eyes a bit at the first line about Kobe's final game, but other than that it was a good read. Bryant's exactly the right player for Hayward to learn from, and whatever changes Gordon made during the offseason really do seem to be paying off. I have noticed that his mid-range game is better (and Kobe was always the master of the mid-range J), and of course his free throw shooting has improved as well.

Kobe always seemed like the kind of player I'd like more after he retired, and this is a big step in that direction. In the post Jordan era, he was always the opponent I respect-hated the most as a Jazz fan. The Spurs beat us like a drum for most of that time too, but there was no specific player on SA that metaphorically nut-punched us as often as Mamba seemed to.
   55. MHS Posted: December 16, 2016 at 11:41 AM (#5369556)

3, NBA teams control the draft rights of a player indefinitely


Once I saw this I stopped reading. That's a non-starter IMHO. Teams already control rights way to long particularly as it relates to draft and stash.
   56. jmurph Posted: December 16, 2016 at 12:16 PM (#5369598)
i think the most important thing for the NBA is to ensure the continued strength of NCAA basketball. i would love it if the Dleague would overtake top tier NCAA teams, but it's not gonna happen and trying to force it happen would cost hundreds of millions of dollars and it would still fail.

I don't know if it would fail. I think it would definitely be better (cost not considered) for the NBA to have players developing in the D League under the eye of NBA-trained coaches, but yeah, it's obviously cheaper for colleges to do the work for them.
   57. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 16, 2016 at 12:47 PM (#5369628)

Once I saw this I stopped reading.


You should have read the very next point which basically undoes most of that one.

Note: I am not endorsing the plan.
   58. jmurph Posted: December 16, 2016 at 12:56 PM (#5369637)
My main issue with the one year rule is that it's unfair to those high school kids that are legitimately NBA ready. But my main basketball concern is that college basketball, to my eye at least, continues to get worse and worse in terms of quality. Every couple of years there's a batch of "college basketball is back!" articles, and then I tune into a few games and it's as bad as ever.
   59. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 16, 2016 at 01:01 PM (#5369641)
Every couple of years there's a batch of "college basketball is back!" articles, and then I tune into a few games and it's as bad as ever.

Until and unless they get rid of the thirty-five second shotclock, NCAA basketball will not be worth my time or yours.
   60. jmurph Posted: December 16, 2016 at 01:03 PM (#5369643)
I think it's 30 now? Still too long.
   61. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 16, 2016 at 01:24 PM (#5369658)
Ah, right, they did reduce it. But agreed, still too dang long.
   62. aberg Posted: December 16, 2016 at 01:38 PM (#5369667)
My main issue with the one year rule is that it's unfair to those high school kids that are legitimately NBA ready.


I have always preferred something similar to baseball's system. If you're ready, you can go, but if not, you have to wait 2 or 3 years in college. I would also like it if guys who declared out of HS and didn't get drafted were allowed to go to college.
   63. STIGGLES don't want to talk about cracker barrel Posted: December 16, 2016 at 02:47 PM (#5369722)
trade machine: who says no?
to GSW: joel embiid, gerald henderson, hollis thompson
to PHI: klay thompson


bonus trade machine: who says no?
to OKC: dario saric
to PHI: cameron payne
   64. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 16, 2016 at 03:02 PM (#5369742)
trade machine: who says no?
to GSW: joel embiid, gerald henderson, hollis thompson
to PHI: klay thompson
GSW says no.

bonus trade machine: who says no?
to OKC: dario saric
to PHI: cameron payne
THE FIRST TIME I WOULD GIVE THE STIGGLE AN UNQUALIFIED YES.
   65. jmurph Posted: December 16, 2016 at 03:11 PM (#5369749)
trade machine: who says no?
to GSW: joel embiid, gerald henderson, hollis thompson
to PHI: klay thompson


I think Philly would be at least as likely to say no, and I think Klay could probably be the best scorer on a good team. But Philly has to be all in on Embiid after all this time.
   66. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: December 16, 2016 at 03:38 PM (#5369773)
No way Golden State breaks up their core.
   67. jmurph Posted: December 16, 2016 at 03:46 PM (#5369781)
With apologies to the Jazz, Sixers/Lakers and Dallas/Utah has to be the least compelling nationally televised doubleheader of the year.
   68. vagab0nd is still a champion Posted: December 16, 2016 at 04:09 PM (#5369804)
to GSW: joel embiid, gerald henderson, hollis thompson
to PHI: klay thompson


gsw would probably say no, but they shouldn't. klay is overrated, and he's redundant on gsw.
   69. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 16, 2016 at 04:16 PM (#5369812)
gsw would probably say no, but they shouldn't. klay is overrated, and he's redundant on gsw.
Why do people keep trying to get GSW to trade Klay? Having an overabundance of great shooting is what makes GSW GSW. This year's Warriors have second highest O Rating of all time (and if you think this year's Raptor offense will maintain the highest of all time, prepare for disappointment), and their margin of victory is second only to the '96 Bulls. They're 23-4. Trading any of their key contributors would be dumb.
   70. Tin Angel Posted: December 16, 2016 at 04:26 PM (#5369820)
JaVale McGee has been surprisingly decent for the Warriors so far.
   71. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 16, 2016 at 05:16 PM (#5369866)
He's practically Rudy Gobert out there.
   72. Eddie Hart Posted: December 16, 2016 at 05:30 PM (#5369877)
Ah, right, they did reduce it. But agreed, still too dang long.


I'm OK with that. College kids aren't as savvy or as talented as the pros and they need the extra time. If you rush them, it would just cause quality of play to deteriorate.
   73. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: December 16, 2016 at 05:32 PM (#5369878)
How does Embiid help the W's beat the Cavs this year?
   74. aberg Posted: December 16, 2016 at 06:18 PM (#5369898)
and if you think this year's Raptor offense will maintain the highest of all time, prepare for disappointment


Never underestimate the heart of Pascal Siacam.
   75. STIGGLES don't want to talk about cracker barrel Posted: December 16, 2016 at 06:47 PM (#5369909)
How does Embiid help the W's beat the Cavs this year?
it might have something to do with the 3.1 DBPM, the +12 on/off rating and the 22 PER.

i won't argue that it's addition by subtraction for GSW, but i'll point out that both curry and durant are taking 2 fewer 3PAs per game this season, which is a lot of points for the two best shooters in the league to leave on the table.


as for how it helps specifically against cleveland, embiid is fearless and he might be one of the few guys in the league who can challenge lebron at full speed.
   76. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: December 16, 2016 at 07:31 PM (#5369930)
I think a Klay for Embiid is a trade that either team should make. The Warriors are good enough to win championships right now and their offense works because of all the passing and shooting they have. Embiid is a ball stopper and an injury risk, and the Warriors depth took a hit when they signed Durant.

Klay is a very good player but I don't think he has the potential to change the fortunes of a moribund franchise like the 76ers.

Essentially, the floor is higher for Klay which is what GSW should want considering where they are right now, and the ceiling is higher for Embiid, which is what the 76ers should want right now.

JaVale McGee could turn into a very important player for the Warriors. He has the length and rim protecting ability that GSW needs. He could be a difference maker, and in a potential series with the elite teams, any small difference could be crucial.
   77. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: December 16, 2016 at 11:10 PM (#5369984)
I would like to formally withdraw, and publicly apologize for, all support and optimism for the Bulls being good and/or entertaining this season. They are a garbage team, and a garbage organization, and will continue to be so as long as the current ownership and front office are making decisions for the team.

Jimmy Butler is awesome, and I hate Wade less than I did a year ago, but the only current positive part of being a Bulls fan today is that I am not a Sixers fan. I will revert to watching Cubs and Blackhawks highlights for the remainder of this awful, awful Bulls season. That is all.
   78. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 17, 2016 at 01:05 AM (#5369999)
Posts like 77 are why this thread will never die.
   79. Booey Posted: December 17, 2016 at 01:34 AM (#5370002)
RODNEY HOOD!!!

I'm actually glad I didn't see tonight's game. I would have been yelling at the screen watching the Jazz blow a 15 pt 4th quarter lead at home to arguably the worst team in the league. But since I missed it, all that's left is the boxscore, so it counts as a win just the same.

Eventually though, this recent habit of blowing big leads to crappy teams and having to struggle for the win is going to bite the Jazz in the ass. Hopefully Hill's return is just around the corner...
   80. Eddie Hart Posted: December 17, 2016 at 07:12 AM (#5370026)
That was a pretty pitiful performance by the Bulls last night. I don't blame Moses for being disgusted.
   81. PASTE does not get put on waivers in August Posted: December 17, 2016 at 07:30 AM (#5370028)
Weren't the Jazz terrible in the fourth quarter last year, too? What's going on there?
   82. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: December 17, 2016 at 09:28 AM (#5370032)
Question for the group: what would you do if you ran the Hornets?
   83. Willard Baseball Posted: December 17, 2016 at 09:45 AM (#5370035)
Re: Hornets

I would punch myself everyday for the Marvin Williams extension. It is a good team, but right now they are just stuck. I really like Kemba. MKG and Kaminsky can be solid role players. But Batum/Marvin are paid like 2nd and 3rd guys and they are more like 5th and 9th guys. Jeremy Lamb shows flashes, but if Clifford can't coach him, don't know if anyone can.

I guess all of this is to say that you pray every night that Curry wants to come home to Charlotte. Otherwise, you just are happy to make the playoffs and hope you get a winnable matchup. They can win playoff series', but obviously cannot compete at the top of the East.
   84. Booey Posted: December 17, 2016 at 10:40 AM (#5370053)
Weren't the Jazz terrible in the fourth quarter last year too? What's going on here?


Yes. Without George Hill (played just 11 games so far), their point guard situation isn't any better than the revolving door garbage fire they had at the position last year. Turnovers, long stretches with no scoring, poor perimeter defense. All things that he helps them with tremendously.

Luckily, they haven't actually lost any of these recent 4th quarter meltdown games yet, so it hasn't impacted them in the standings. It will though if Hill doesn't come back soon or they can't find some other way to get their sh!t together.
   85. JJ1986 Posted: December 17, 2016 at 10:59 AM (#5370061)
I think The Hornets are basically stuck, but they were going to be stuck unless they just let both Batum and Marvin Williams walk away, and even then they aren't a free agent destination so they might not have been able to add anyone even is good as Nic. They're not going to have top draft picks for the next few years now, and they have almost no trade-assets. Kaminsky devalued the minute they took him; no one knows what they were offered for the pick, but they should have taken it. They dumped this year's pick for a negative asset. I think the best that they can do is hope for more value-free agents like Jeremy Lin to fill out their bench, hope that Walker and Cody Zeller stay healthy. The one real change I'd consider is trading MKG if there's a market for him, get either a shooting guard who can handle the ball more or a real power forward. I'm not sure you need the lockdown individual defender in Clifford's system and he's not going to be a positive on offense.
   86. STIGGLES don't want to talk about cracker barrel Posted: December 17, 2016 at 10:59 AM (#5370062)
Question for the group: what would you do if you ran the Hornets?
i'd call philly every day and offer two 1st round picks for nerlens noel.

kemba/batum/MKG/zeller/noel would be a sneaky good lineup. that's 4 guys who average a DBPM of about 2 and a 5th whose OBPM is about 5.




   87. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: December 17, 2016 at 12:39 PM (#5370087)
Question for the group: what would you do if you ran the Hornets?

Try playing smaller. I think Clifford could coax a good defense out of just about any lineup with his scheme, and their defensive rebounding is much more collective than dependent upon individual players, so why play 2 true bigs at all times?

On offense the Hornets really need a 2nd scoring threat to go along with Kemba, and Jeremy Lamb is clearly the best bet on their existing roster. Give him 25 minutes a game to prove himself at the expense of some minutes for Hawes/Hibbert/Williams/Kaminsky. Lamb's shot selection doesn't exactly fit their ideal, but they play better with him on the court because he demands defensive attention. If his offense translates to a larger role and he continues to develop as a scorer, they're basically the Raptors.

Re-think the draft strategy. Contenders who sign free agents at a discount can afford to deal first round picks and prioritize fit over value; that doesn't describe Charlotte. First round draft picks are like gold for a small market franchise. Act accordingly.

Be on the lookout for trades. Only Kemba should be off-limits.

I will revert to watching Cubs and Blackhawks highlights for the remainder of this awful, awful Bulls season.

I also noticed the commercials for Cubs and Blackhawks commemorative DVDs during the Bulls broadcast last night. Re-living the Cubs 11 playoff wins on their march to the World Series title, or whatever that commercial said, sounded infinitely better than watching Bobby Portis spin in circles on defense, Isaiah Canaan airball 3s, and Rajon Rondo throw terrible lobs to no one.
   88. Willard Baseball Posted: December 17, 2016 at 01:23 PM (#5370101)
Should have let Marvin go and given that money to Lin. The team is much better with Kaminsky on the floor anyway. Kemba /Lin/MKG/Kaminsky/Zeller would make for a good offense at least.

Sessions and Bellinelli are awful to watch. Batum cannot guard.
   89. maccoach57 Posted: December 17, 2016 at 02:27 PM (#5370113)
Question for the group: what would you do if you ran the Hornets?


I understand the point of the question, but I am not sure that the Hornets see themselves as being in a bad place. Jordan made it clear that he wanted a decent team, and he has one. The dropoff has been on O and Batum and Williams, especially Williams, will probably do a bit better than they have been doing (unless Williams has suddenly lost it at 30). I would probably look at trading Kidd-Gilchrist at the end of the year even though he is only 23. I have never been a fan of his game.
   90. Willard Baseball Posted: December 17, 2016 at 02:35 PM (#5370117)
If MKG plays with Kaminsky more and more, adding a post up game could really improve him. He should be able to dominate smaller defenders in the lane.
   91. billyshears Posted: December 17, 2016 at 04:13 PM (#5370165)
Question for the group: what would you do if you ran the Hornets?


Always take the really talented guy who falls in the draft because he's kinda crazy and maybe a bit violent.
   92. STIGGLES don't want to talk about cracker barrel Posted: December 17, 2016 at 04:36 PM (#5370175)
fun with bkref play index: active player seasons, FT% < 60; sorted by 3PA

trade machine: who says no?
CHO gets: tyson chandler, jared dudley
PHX gets: spencer hawes, roy hibbert, ramon sessions and aaron harrison
   93. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 17, 2016 at 05:47 PM (#5370215)
Nerlens Noel is now publicly complaining about his playing time.
It's pretty clear the Sixers need to move a big man ASAP. It's been clear for a while, but it seems like things are getting to the point where their hand may be forced. I know STEAGLES is bullish on Okafor's potential, but it seems nuts to me that the Sixers are focusing on seeing if they can make him and Embiid work together. I have not been following them that closely this season, but if I ran the zoo I'm pretty sure I would be seeing how well Noel would look next to Embiid, as I'm pretty down on Okafor's ability to flourish, especially next to another big man. What do people think the Sixers should do to get out of their current logjam?
   94. PASTE does not get put on waivers in August Posted: December 17, 2016 at 06:07 PM (#5370225)
Just trade whichever of Noel/Okafor/Embiid brings the most back?

I don't expect Embiid to stay healthy for long, which is why I wouldn't mind moving him if he fetches the highest price of the three. But unlike NBA general managers, I have no idea how his medicals actually look.
   95. STIGGLES don't want to talk about cracker barrel Posted: December 17, 2016 at 06:39 PM (#5370235)
Nerlens Noel is now publicly complaining about his playing time.
he has been for the last 6 months.

and he's not wrong. noel is in a contract year and he only got 8 minutes last night, none in the 2nd half. that's not acceptable from his point view and i think i agree with him.

but...this is something that should be handled internally. this was only noel's 2nd game back after knee surgery and he was questionable at game time. i can understand noel's frustration, but i also understand the sixers' caution. noel is injury prone and if something happens to him, his trade value is sunk.
What do people think the Sixers should do to get out of their current logjam?

option 1: package noel with other assets for a top 50 player :: wall/lillard/mccollum/butler/george
option 2: trade noel for a cromulent veteran :: gallinari/gay/rubio/bledsoe/tyreke/chandler/bradley/dragic
option 3: trade noel for buyers remorse :: ross/lamb/crabbe/knight/turner/harkless
option 4: trade noel for a mystery box :: draft picks/smart/exum/hezonja/mudiay
   96. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: December 17, 2016 at 07:53 PM (#5370243)
Malik Monk had a pretty crazy game today against UNC. 47 pts on 8-12 from three including the game winner, 10-16 from two, and little else: 0 reb, 2 ast, only 2 turns, 0 fouls even.
   97. Eddie Hart Posted: December 17, 2016 at 08:54 PM (#5370258)
The last two 3's he made, the defender was in his face too.
   98. PASTE does not get put on waivers in August Posted: December 17, 2016 at 09:37 PM (#5370272)
I think we've more than once been over the fact no one's trading a top 50 player for Noel and a draft pick pupu platter, STIGGLES.
   99. Tin Angel Posted: December 17, 2016 at 10:29 PM (#5370279)
Wow, the Wolves just gave up a double digit lead with 5 minutes left in the 4th quarter. Despite Houston's shooting a putrid 15-46 from 3.
   100. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: December 17, 2016 at 10:57 PM (#5370283)
I understand the point of the question, but I am not sure that the Hornets see themselves as being in a bad place. Jordan made it clear that he wanted a decent team, and he has one. The dropoff has been on O and Batum and Williams, especially Williams, will probably do a bit better than they have been doing (unless Williams has suddenly lost it at 30). I would probably look at trading Kidd-Gilchrist at the end of the year even though he is only 23. I have never been a fan of his game.


Yeah, as the person who asked about the Hornets, I definitely didn't mean to rule out this option ... CHA seems to me to be an interesting buy/sell/hold. Try to get a star? Hold and hope that Kemba develops more into, I don't know, a Billups-level player, or your young nucleus will appeal enough to Curry? Get some more high-volatility assets? Holding doesn't seem crazy, for sure, maybe your 1% chance that Kemba develops into Steph or MKG into Kawhi or something is even your best shot at contending.
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