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Wednesday, March 01, 2017

OT - March 2017 NBA thread

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of bothered to submit a monthly thread to avoid detracting from what this site is really about:  I dunno, baseball, maybe?  Probably politics, but maybe some baseball, too.

Optimistic Moses Taylor, optimist Posted: March 01, 2017 at 11:37 AM | 7430 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   3701. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: May 18, 2017 at 11:58 AM (#5458409)
   3702. jmurph Posted: May 18, 2017 at 12:04 PM (#5458419)
but he didn't because he's not clutch!!! (/skip bayless)

To continue the LeBron lovefest, another performance of his that I think gets lost to history is the Ray Allen Shot game in the Finals, down 3-2 against the Spurs. Starting with 10 seconds left in the 3rd until Allen hit the insane 3, LeBron scored 18, and his teammates scored 11 (if I'm counting correctly). That stretch started with Miami down by 11.
   3703. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: May 18, 2017 at 12:05 PM (#5458421)
justin jackson UNC: legit NBA range, but i don't see any other offensive skills.
justin jackson marilyn: i'm not a believer. looks stiff and slow.
jayson tatum: i don't know who he's going to defend. doesn't look quick enough to defend the perimeter and doesn't look physical enough to defend in the paint. he could improve a lot on both ends of the floor if he puts in the work in the weight room.
tyler lydon: meh. he's an undersized stretch 4
   3704. vagab0nd kills for candy Posted: May 18, 2017 at 12:09 PM (#5458435)
To continue the LeBron lovefest, another performance of his that I think gets lost to history is the Ray Allen Shot game in the Finals, down 3-2 against the Spurs. Starting with 10 seconds left in the 3rd until Allen hit the insane 3, LeBron scored 18, and his teammates scored 11 (if I'm counting correctly). That stretch started with Miami down by 11.


it all started when his headband got knocked off. there was a chasedown block in there somewhere (on manu?) and (what really gets lost in the shuffle) is missed ft's in regulation by kawhi and manu.
   3705. Booey Posted: May 18, 2017 at 12:13 PM (#5458442)
Well, if you win a title, usually that's more memorable than the journey.


Yeah, but there's exceptions. Maybe actual Lakers fans feel differently, but I'll always remember the 2000 and 2002 Lakers much more for the 7 game WCF's than the foregone conclusion Finals that followed (the 2000 Pacers put up a good fight, but at no point did I think they had a shot at winning the series). If the Warriors had closed out the Cavs in 5 or 6 last year, I'd remember their playoff run more for their 3-1 comeback vs OKC.
   3706. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 18, 2017 at 01:20 PM (#5458555)
Yeah, but there's exceptions. Maybe actual Lakers fans feel differently, but I'll always remember the 2000 and 2002 Lakers much more for the 7 game WCF's than the foregone conclusion Finals that followed
No disagreement here. The Kobe-to-Shaq lob to cap off the largest Game 7 comeback in NBA history was the iconic moment for the early 2000s dynasty.
   3707. jmurph Posted: May 18, 2017 at 02:56 PM (#5458698)
All NBA Teams Announced- let the arguing commence:

1st
LeBron
Westbrook
Kawhi
Davis
Harden

2nd
Gobert
Giannis
Isaiah Thomas
Curry
Durant

3rd
Butler
Draymond
DeRozan
Wall
DeAndre
   3708. jmurph Posted: May 18, 2017 at 02:59 PM (#5458704)
Harden was the only unanimous one, which is weird. Seems like all but Davis should have been unanimous.
   3709. Optimistic Moses Taylor, optimist Posted: May 18, 2017 at 03:01 PM (#5458708)
With both PG and Hayward not making any of the teams, neither are eligible for the supermax (DVPE).

So...
John Schuhmann‏ @johnschuhmann 3m3 minutes ago

Pacers can take a risk, keep PG, & hope he's All-NBA next season.

Hayward can bet on himself, opt in & earn more $ w/ All-NBA next season.


I guess that makes it more likely they'd leave, since they're leaving less on the table. Everything is coming up C's, except for, you know, on the court right now.
   3710. jmurph Posted: May 18, 2017 at 03:04 PM (#5458712)
I guess that makes it more likely they'd leave, since they're leaving less on the table. Everything is coming up C's, except for, you know, on the court right now.

Get those digs in, 8th place! I'd say Indiana has to trade George now, they can't risk that. I still think Hayward stays, it's still more money.

(Also just kidding with the opening shot, for the record.)
   3711. jmurph Posted: May 18, 2017 at 03:07 PM (#5458720)
My initial reaction is that Gobert should be 1st team over Davis, Isaiah on 2nd seems like one team too high, and DeRozan doesn't belong anywhere, obviously. Even with the games missed I'd put Paul and Lowry on, I think?
   3712. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 18, 2017 at 03:08 PM (#5458722)
I'd have gone with Gobert over Davis this year.
   3713. Booey Posted: May 18, 2017 at 03:26 PM (#5458745)
My initial reaction is that Gobert should be 1st team over Davis


I'd have gone with Gobert over Davis this year.


Same. But I'd also vote for Gobert for DPOY, MIP, ROY, COY, NBA and MLB MVP, and POTUS, so I may be just a tad biased.

With both PG and Hayward not making any of the teams, neither are eligible for the supermax (DVPE).


So now what's the max the Jazz can offer him vs another team?
   3714. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: May 18, 2017 at 03:39 PM (#5458764)
I'd say Indiana has to trade George now, they can't risk that
how strong can the trade market be for george, when everyone thinks/knows he's bolting for LA in 12 months?

if CHA offers MKG and kaminsky, does that get it done?
could MIN get him for rubio?

if IND decides they must trade george this summer, how low is their reserve price? is there a reserve price?
   3715. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 18, 2017 at 03:44 PM (#5458772)
How firm are the rumors about George going to LA? I feel like it mainly came up very late in the trade deadline this last season, but I'd not heard more before then. Dunno if I just wasn't listening. But, most players want to win so if a good team brings him in and he realizes he can get the max and play out his last big contract with a winner/contender, not many guys walk away from that.
   3716. jmurph Posted: May 18, 2017 at 03:46 PM (#5458774)
if CHA offers MKG and kaminsky, does that get it done?
could MIN get him for rubio?

Good god no. You just hold onto him and hope for the best instead of garbage deals like that.
   3717. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 18, 2017 at 03:46 PM (#5458775)
Well, the Lakers at least would likely be interested in trading for George, knowing they can extend him. And they have assets to make a deal work, if Indiana is actually willing to move him.

How close is "Paul George straight up for the #2 pick" to an equitable deal?
   3718. jmurph Posted: May 18, 2017 at 03:48 PM (#5458779)
Towns with 50 (points? votes? whatever), just after DeAndre at 54.
   3719. Booey Posted: May 18, 2017 at 03:56 PM (#5458792)
How close is "Paul George straight up for the #2 pick" to an equitable deal?


If the rumors of George wanting to be a Laker are true, couldn't LAL just sign him as a free agent next offseason without giving up anything?
   3720. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 18, 2017 at 03:59 PM (#5458794)
Yep. But that takes the (unfounded, far as I know) absolute certainty that if he's traded somewhere else that team won't extend him. And even beyond that, there's a lot of value in one extra year of a superstar's prime. Get George now and the Lakers may very well be back in the playoffs next year--and possibly back ahead of the Clippers, if they break up.

e: Imagine if Chris Paul were to jump to the Lakers and then the Lakers landed George without giving up Randle or Russell... they'd have to dump Mozgov/Deng's contract, but...
   3721. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: May 18, 2017 at 04:01 PM (#5458799)
How firm are the rumors about George going to LA? I feel like it mainly came up very late in the trade deadline this last season, but I'd not heard more before then. Dunno if I just wasn't listening. But, most players want to win so if a good team brings him in and he realizes he can get the max and play out his last big contract with a winner/contender, not many guys walk away from that.
there's alot of smoke around george.

there's been a lot of high level movement going back to the decision. bosh, lebron, howard, paul, durant, horford, melo, aldridge, love. i don't think we can assume guys like george will stay put, even in relatively good situations like the ones that aldridge, durant and horford fled from.
If the rumors of George wanting to be a Laker are true, couldn't LAL just sign him as a free agent next offseason and not have to give up anything?
yup. trading for george would not be without benefits for LAL (they can't tank this year, so winning more games doesn't matter; getting george would prevent another team from stealing him) but those benefits are not worth the #2 pick.
   3722. jmurph Posted: May 18, 2017 at 04:17 PM (#5458818)
I think if you're a good, confident team, you still take a shot at George- Houston, San Antonio... that might be it. I don't think I'd put Boston in that group at this time- they would probably do it, but I'm not sure it would be a good risk.

(Obviously Golden State and Cleveland would be on the list, but that seems mildly unlikely given the contract situations in both places.)
   3723. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: May 18, 2017 at 04:17 PM (#5458819)
So which Conference Finals moment was that list missing? Off the top of my head I can't really think of any that definitely should have been there that weren't.

As a Bulls fan, I can only think of one Conference Finals moment I'd like to see on the list: 1993 Game 5

Pre and post allstar splits are on basketball reference. You can look at 41 games each way but it will tell you the same story.

Why does a team [the Cavs] go 12-15?

I've got 3 explanations, one of which I ruled out:

1. They are a below average team - I rule this out because I have seen what Lebron can do
2. Randomness
3. Not playing at full effort

Another could be if they played an especially strong subset of teams in their last 27. I doubt it but haven't checked.

The schedule actually explains Cleveland's season pretty well. They played at roughly the same level all year, though their early season schedule was a joke and their late season schedule was brutal. Here's what I said about it back near the start of the season:
647. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: November 06, 2016 at 05:28 PM (#5346935)
Don't think I've mentioned it here, but the Cavs have the league's easiest early-season schedule by far: 21 of 34 at home, with a rest advantage over their opponents and no flights longer than an hour and a half. There's a pretty good chance they start the year on a crazy run like 30-4 and get some "historic season" buzz before their schedule evens out.
   3724. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: May 18, 2017 at 04:53 PM (#5458872)
So which Conference Finals moment was that list missing? Off the top of my head I can't really think of any that definitely should have been there that weren't.


As a Celtics fan, Paul Pierce's free throw bouncing above the backboard off the back of the rim before dropping through in 2008 sticks out as a possible addition. Game 7, 7.9 seconds left; Pavlovic had just hit a 3 to pull the Cavs within one possession; and it capped off one of the best head-to-head scoring duels in playoff history. It was free throw one of two, sure, but it was also the dagger for the whole series.
   3725. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 18, 2017 at 04:59 PM (#5458878)
there's been a lot of high level movement going back to the decision. bosh, lebron, howard, paul, durant, horford, melo, aldridge, love. i don't think we can assume guys like george will stay put, even in relatively good situations like the ones that aldridge, durant and horford fled from.

Oh, I'm not saying he'll stay in Indiana. Just if another good team that gets him can max him, he's likely to stay there.

I think Aldridge/Durant don't apply because they went to places that are better situations to win. Horford's may have been slightly better to win, and IIRC was definitely more money than Atlanta wanted to give.
   3726. Booey Posted: May 18, 2017 at 05:06 PM (#5458888)
As a Celtics fan, Paul Pierce's free throw bouncing above the backboard off the back of the rim before dropping through in 2008 sticks out as a possible addition. Game 7, 7.9 seconds left; Pavlovic had just hit a 3 to pull the Cavs within one possession; and it capped off one of the best head-to-head scoring duels in playoff history. It was free throw one of two, sure, but it was also the dagger for the whole series.


Celtics/Cavs in 2008 happened in the 2nd round, not the Conference Finals. The ECF was Celts/Pistons.
   3727. jmurph Posted: May 18, 2017 at 05:12 PM (#5458894)
The ECF was Celts/Pistons.

I can't recall a single thing about this series.
   3728. Booey Posted: May 18, 2017 at 05:17 PM (#5458901)
The ECF was Celts/Pistons.

I can't recall a single thing about this series.


I just remember it being the first playoff series where Boston actually won a road game.

Also the final hurrah for the Billups/Hamilton/Wallace(s) Pistons. Their last of 6 straight ECF appearances.
   3729. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: May 18, 2017 at 05:21 PM (#5458912)
So which Conference Finals moment was that list missing? Off the top of my head I can't really think of any that definitely should have been there that weren't.


Tayshaun Prince blocking Reggie Miller in game 2 in 2004 will always be remembered in Detroit.
   3730. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: May 18, 2017 at 06:00 PM (#5458936)
livvalice
I hope my brother dunks on lonzo ball so hard next year that his daddy runs on the court to help him up.........
livvalice
Hey @Lavarbigballer can I get some women's leggi..... oh wait u don't cater to everyone. You're a marketing genius.
livvalice
When I see the words BBB put together I just think big black balls. I can't even take this merchandise seriously :evil: :evil: :evil:
i might be wrong but...this is ben simmons' sister flirting with lonzo ball's dad, right?
   3731. sardonic Posted: May 18, 2017 at 06:08 PM (#5458940)
Also the final hurrah for the Billups/Hamilton/Wallace(s) Pistons. Their last of 6 straight ECF appearances.


Man, I do not remember the Pistons run lasting that long.
   3732. stevegamer Posted: May 18, 2017 at 06:28 PM (#5458953)
I think the Lakers are smarter than the Chicago Bears.


It's not hard to be smarter than the Bears here. There are couple issues that force the Lakers to consider the Celtics might take Ball.

1. Ball is seen far more as #1 overall than the QB the Bears took was as the #1 QB.

2. This isn't a situation where they are dealing with a team in front of them that isn't a comparable franchise success-wise. The Lakers have the second most titles/wins all-time, which is really impressive, but they are slightly behind Boston, and 5 of those titles predate the move to LA.

i might be wrong but...this is ben simmons' sister flirting with lonzo ball's dad, right?


Flirting? Uh, no. Completely dissing? Yes.
   3733. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 18, 2017 at 06:43 PM (#5458961)
Pfft. Ben Simmons is so soft Lonzo will be going out of his way to dunk on him, not the other way around.
   3734. aberg Posted: May 18, 2017 at 09:15 PM (#5459051)
What do you all think of a possible trade of Porzingis for the #1 pick?
   3735. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 18, 2017 at 09:22 PM (#5459058)
If the Knicks actually made him available I would want to do my own physical of him and do a very thorough examination of his medical records. But if I'm satisfied with what I see, yeah, I'd trade the #1 plus some (but not a lot of) sweeteners for Porzingis. If he went back into the draft pool now, he'd go #1 for sure, right?

IF the Knicks are making Porzingis available, though, I have a feeling it isn't draft picks they're looking for in return.

e: WHO SAYS NO?!?!?

MIL gets: Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart, Jae Crowder, 2017 #1 pick, 2018 Nets 1st round pick
BOS gets: Giannis Antetokounmpo

(Note, apparently Giannis can't be traded before June 30, which is screwing up the Trade Machine, so I can't be certain it's a legal trade even after then. Please don't allow this to dissuade you from pondering this totally realistic and mutually beneficial trade proposal.)
   3736. maccoach57 Posted: May 18, 2017 at 09:40 PM (#5459068)
The Lakers have the second most titles/wins all-time, which is really impressive, but they are slightly behind Boston, and 5 of those titles predate the move to LA.


17-16 is not a thing for me personally (it was a huge deal to Jerry Buss apparently), but a few points on it:

13 of Boston's 17 titles came before the merger, a few in eight-team leagues. The Lakers have won 10 times since the merger, and they have been in the Finals 16 times since the merger. But then again, yes, the first five titles were in Minneapolis and pre-date the shot clock. And, finally, San Antonio is the most successful organization in the game right now.
   3737. maccoach57 Posted: May 18, 2017 at 09:40 PM (#5459070)
WHO SAYS NO?!?!?


Both STIGGLES and Milwaukee.
   3738. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: May 18, 2017 at 09:51 PM (#5459073)
What do you all think of a possible trade of Porzingis for the #1 pick?
i don't love it for boston. so far the idea of porzingis seems to be better than the reality. he's not efficient enough on offense and he hasn't blossomed yet on defense. he also has injury issues to account for and he's 2 years closer to free agency.
   3739. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 18, 2017 at 09:53 PM (#5459075)
i don't love it for boston. so far the idea of porzingis seems to be better than the reality. he's not efficient enough on offense and he hasn't blossomed yet on defense.


These are valid criticisms. But I'm inclined to lay more blame on the Knicks for being exquisitely incompetent than on Porzingis for being something less than advertised. The skills seem very real to me. Give him a proper leadership structure, and...

By the way, as 3735 hints, I believe the most valuable single property in the basketball world right now is Giannis, and I'm pondering the question of whether it's completely impossible to imagine a trade offer for him that the Bucks wouldn't immediately hang up on, short of one including other superstars like if the Warriors offered Curry and Draymond. I think it probably is impossible. Would the Bucks say no if Minnesota offered Towns, Wiggins and picks? Probably, right?
   3740. smileyy Posted: May 18, 2017 at 10:06 PM (#5459080)
I like Giannis, but...I think he needs to be in the MVP conversation before he gets held in that kind of esteem.
   3741. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: May 18, 2017 at 10:17 PM (#5459084)
I like Giannis, but...I think he needs to be in the MVP conversation before he gets held in that kind of esteem.
i don't know that i'd trade embiid or simmons straight up for giannis, but i don't know that i wouldn't trade embiid or simmons straight up for giannis.

ignoring for a second whether my valuation of embiid and simmons is anything short of insane, that sentiment speaks to giannis's impressive value.
These are valid criticisms. But I'm inclined to lay more blame on the Knicks for being exquisitely incompetent than on Porzingis for being something less than advertised. The skills seem very real to me. Give him a proper leadership structure, and...
i think that's probably true, but i wouldn't be eager to risk the #1 overall pick to find out.
   3742. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 18, 2017 at 10:20 PM (#5459085)
He got quite a few fifth place votes in our informal polling, in a year when fifth place was about as good as you could do.

Plus we're talking about trade value here, which is a slightly different thing from current ability level. LeBron plays on one year contracts, as (for now) does Durant; Westbrook and Harden are far older than Giannis and carry huge contracts; Curry is about to get a supermax, unless he takes less to do the Warriors a solid. Giannis isn't yet on their level--but he's damn close, and he's 22, and he'll cost barely half the current max salary for another four years. He looks like the most valuable trade property of 'em all right now to me. Maybe Kawhi.
   3743. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 18, 2017 at 10:35 PM (#5459087)
Man, I do not remember the Pistons run lasting that long.

For the peak of that run they were legitimately awesome. Beat the Lakers handily and took the Spurs to 7. Beyond that... Eastern Conference. I look back on the LeBron vs. Pistons game/series as the moment in time the Pistons era fractured.
   3744. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 18, 2017 at 10:43 PM (#5459090)
I love Giannis but I think I'd take that deal - those assets are really good, and Milwaukee wouldn't be looking for a total teardown so Crowder's significant value/contract provides a lot of value. Also, Smart is pretty much irrelevant in such a trade IMO. I'd answer that trade the same way if he was included or not. I don't think he's viewed as an asset in this league. He's a good backup guard, that's it. I'd take Brogdon over him straight up. Giannis is a top 10-ish player, so I think commanding a king's ransom is legit.

I do think Milwaukee would say no, as he's the face. They may even be right to do so.
   3745. stevegamer Posted: May 18, 2017 at 11:37 PM (#5459103)
17-16 is not a thing for me personally (it was a huge deal to Jerry Buss apparently), but a few points on it:

13 of Boston's 17 titles came before the merger, a few in eight-team leagues. The Lakers have won 10 times since the merger, and they have been in the Finals 16 times since the merger. But then again, yes, the first five titles were in Minneapolis and pre-date the shot clock. And, finally, San Antonio is the most successful organization in the game right now.


All absolutely true. I think there are significant tiers of success and also desirability. AS good as the Spurs are, I don't think it would be remotely a fit for the Balls; more team oriented than star oriented, and a small market. The dad's goal for his sons seems to be "Big fish in a big pond", which reduces the number of teams greatly.

The NY teams are pretty dysfunctional, so they aren't a fit.
The 76ers haven't been a true marquee team since the days of Doc & Moses, that spurt from Iverson was great, but not sustained.
Houston has the population, but not the cachet.

I only see Boston, LA, and maybe Chicago & Miami being desirable teams, with the Lakers being #1, and the Celtics probably the next best option. I don't see a way Ball ends up on Miami, and Chicago, would require a major trade.


   3746. maccoach57 Posted: May 19, 2017 at 02:59 AM (#5459130)
Maybe actual Lakers fans feel differently, but I'll always remember the 2000 and 2002 Lakers much more for the 7 game WCF's than the foregone conclusion Finals that followed (the 2000 Pacers put up a good fight, but at no point did I think they had a shot at winning the series


The most memorable moments are very often not in the decisive game, like The Baby Skyhook way back in 1987. But those moments mostly matter because of how the "journey" ends. The permanency of the championship ties it all together.

   3747. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: May 19, 2017 at 05:08 AM (#5459132)
   3748. Rally Posted: May 19, 2017 at 09:04 AM (#5459174)
17-16 is not a thing for me personally (it was a huge deal to Jerry Buss apparently)


Not for me. I was born in 1970, I've seen a lot more Laker championships than Celtic championships. The Russell championships (and the Mikan ones) might as well be recorded on hieroglyphics for all I know.
   3749. The Buddy Biancalana Hit Counter Posted: May 19, 2017 at 09:33 AM (#5459189)
I think Aldridge/Durant don't apply because they went to places that are better situations to win. Horford's may have been slightly better to win, and IIRC was definitely more money than Atlanta wanted to give.

Atlanta offered Horford more money than anybody else, but not the maximum they could have offered him for a five-year deal. I do not know if that or their plan to trade Paul Millsap so Horford could play alongside Dwight Howard was a greater motivator in his decision to leave.
   3750. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: May 19, 2017 at 10:53 AM (#5459242)
i don't love it for boston. so far the idea of porzingis seems to be better than the reality


Maybe the Knicks would through in Carmelo.
   3751. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: May 19, 2017 at 10:54 AM (#5459243)
Yeah, the Bucks aren't trading Giannis for anything. He's a superstar who is saying all the right things about loving Milwaukee and wanting to stay-- that is worth a lot for a franchise like the Bucks.

I do think they should be exploring the trade market for Jabari, but he's also close to untouchable because he's another face of the franchise and a very positive presence in the community. And of course right now his value is at an all-time low anyway. Would love to see them put a package together to get D'angelo Russell though.
   3752. JC in DC Posted: May 19, 2017 at 11:25 AM (#5459256)
Markelle Fultz's three point shooting is more questionable than people give credit. He shot a low 65% from the free throw line in college, and wasn't a good three point shooter in high school. He doesn't generally shoot spot up threes, instead most of his threes are pull ups just barely beyond the college arc. These would be deep midrange looks in the NBA.


I told you guys this. My daughter (and Lykes) outshot him at the competition, and in games, his shot (and his entire game) just didn't scream "NBA star." Now that I've etched that into the eternal cloud of unknowing, it'll be great to read three years from now when he's leading Boston to its second straight title.
   3753. Optimistic Moses Taylor, optimist Posted: May 19, 2017 at 11:44 AM (#5459277)
i don't know that i'd trade embiid or simmons straight up for giannis, but i don't know that i wouldn't trade embiid or simmons straight up for giannis.

ignoring for a second whether my valuation of embiid and simmons is anything short of insane, that sentiment speaks to giannis's impressive value.


It's insane. The Bucks would hang up on the Sixers if they offered both for Giannis.
   3754. JC in DC Posted: May 19, 2017 at 11:50 AM (#5459288)
What if the Sixers threw in their medical staff?
   3755. Optimistic Moses Taylor, optimist Posted: May 19, 2017 at 11:52 AM (#5459291)
Jordan Schultz‏ @Schultz_Report 1h1 hour ago

Asked 3 NBA front office guys biggest surprise regarding #AllNBATeams. All 3 said Jimmy Butler and all agreed he isn't a top 15 guy.


I bet one of those 3 works for the Bulls.
   3756. Booey Posted: May 19, 2017 at 12:18 PM (#5459325)
Asked 3 NBA front office guys biggest surprise regarding #AllNBATeams. All 3 said Jimmy Butler and all agreed he isn't a top 15 guy.


Count da wins (or lack thereof). Butler is clearly better than DeRozan IMO, but the Bulls won 41 games and the Raps won 51, so Jimmy's the guy people say is out of place.

I think I would've taken Hayward or PG-13 over DeRozan too.
   3757. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 19, 2017 at 12:44 PM (#5459346)
STIGGLES' link makes me wonder if "Lauri Markkanen" is Swedish for "Kelly Olynyk," right down to having a woman's name.
   3758. Tin Angel Posted: May 19, 2017 at 12:51 PM (#5459349)
Butler is clearly better than DeRozan IMO


Yeah, I mean it's not even really close. I was surprised DeRozan made the team over Klay Thompson, who also seems significantly better.
   3759. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: May 19, 2017 at 01:02 PM (#5459361)
I was surprised DeRozan made the team over Klay Thompson, who also seems significantly better.

Nah.
   3760. aberg Posted: May 19, 2017 at 01:04 PM (#5459363)
I haven't seen the comparison too many times, but the guy Fultz reminded me of watching him up close was Harden. He's not a perfect shooter (as JC said), but he's at least good enough that you have to respect the spacing in the PNR. He is crafty and strong with the ball with enough speed that it doesn't hinder him. He's also very adept at absorbing contact, which stood out as an NBA skill the first time I saw him.

Also, I'm also biased, but I think Towns and Giannis are quite close.
   3761. aberg Posted: May 19, 2017 at 01:06 PM (#5459366)
Also from the STIGGLES link:

The fact that Fultz managed to be so incredibly productive this year despite playing at Washington is frankly remarkable. He had terrible shooters around him, no real pick and roll partner, and he still thrived. The opposing team only had one thing to worry about when playing Washington (stopping Fultz), and they often couldn’t do it. The coaching / scheme was a joke. Lorenzo Romar was apparently so bad that Washington decided to fire him at the end of the season, even though it cost them the chance at getting Michael Porter Jr., the #1 NCAA recruit for next season.

Oh yeah, did I mention that Fultz is also a great passer. He somehow managed to rank No. 20 in the nation in assist rate despite his teammates shooting just 28.6 percent from beyond the arc in Pac-12 play and finishing with a collective 49.4 eFG for the season, good for No. 225 in the nation. (credit to Sam Vecenie for that stat).
   3762. JJ1986 Posted: May 19, 2017 at 01:08 PM (#5459372)
Chris Paul should have been one of the guards on the third team.
   3763. aberg Posted: May 19, 2017 at 01:17 PM (#5459382)
Ball reminds me of a souped-up version of Rubio, which you could interpret as a very good or not so good sign. They both have exquisite court vision and passing ability. They're both oversized but slightly slow PGs who need to use length more than foot speed to play defense. Neither one is good at getting shots at the rim. The key difference is obviously that Ball was a plus outside shooter for his year at UCLA and Rubio has been a terrible shooter for most of his career. I question whether Ball's weirdo mechanics will play in the NBA. He starts his shot very low and appears to have a slow release. If he can get them off and can keep making them, he's instantly better than Rubio has ever been, and Rubio has been an above-average PG when healthy. If he struggles with his outside shot, his game seems a lot like Rubio's.
   3764. The Good Face Posted: May 19, 2017 at 01:18 PM (#5459386)
I told you guys this. My daughter (and Lykes) outshot him at the competition, and in games, his shot (and his entire game) just didn't scream "NBA star."


I don't know anything about your daughter, but Lykes is a heck of a player with impressive skills. If he was close to 6 feet tall he'd be a top 10 recruit and a likely 1 and done, and even at 5'8 I still wouldn't be shocked if he winds up in the NBA someday. Miami's backcourt is going to be scary good next year.
   3765. Rally Posted: May 19, 2017 at 01:27 PM (#5459396)
I have no idea what Magic is thinking, but if I were making the pick and the Celtics made noise about taking Ball, trying to get something out of me to move up, I'd call their bluff.

I don't like the looks of Ball's shooting release. I don't like the non-elite speed and athleticism, especially since we already have that package with Russell. I do like the shooting range and passing ability. He might still be the best available player but I'm not convinced. Not saying I'd take him, but I wouldn't rule out Fox, especially due to the head to head results.

Lakers haven't played solid D in forever. I'm afraid that what Fox did against Ball is just what you have to expect when Ball is playing an elite NBA athlete. Problem is, in college he faces one every now and then. In the NBA he faces one about 82 times a year.

   3766. Jtsports01 Posted: May 19, 2017 at 01:36 PM (#5459407)
Towns, Giannis and Davis are probably equally untradeable

   3767. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: May 19, 2017 at 01:40 PM (#5459411)
I haven't seen the comparison too many times, but the guy Fultz reminded me of watching him up close was Harden. He's not a perfect shooter (as JC said), but he's at least good enough that you have to respect the spacing in the PNR. He is crafty and strong with the ball with enough speed that it doesn't hinder him. He's also very adept at absorbing contact, which stood out as an NBA skill the first time I saw him.

i kinda hate the harden comp for fultz. it makes sense from a skillset standpoint, but it ignores what makes harden so effective: his shot selection. fultz shot selection was significantly worse than harden's.

i also don't buy that his range will translate. it might, but it's not a given.
Ball reminds me of a souped-up version of Rubio, which you could interpret as a very good or not so good sign. They both have exquisite court vision and passing ability. They're both oversized but slightly slow PGs who need to use length more than foot speed to play defense. Neither one is good at getting shots at the rim. The key difference is obviously that Ball was a plus outside shooter for his year at UCLA and Rubio has been a terrible shooter for most of his career. I question whether Ball's weirdo mechanics will play in the NBA. He starts his shot very low and appears to have a slow release. If he can get them off and can keep making them, he's instantly better than Rubio has ever been, and Rubio has been an above-average PG when healthy. If he struggles with his outside shot, it game seems a lot like Rubio's.

rubio with range out to 30' is a hell of a player. i don't know that that's ball's floor, but it's towards the lower end of his potential outcomes.
Lakers haven't played solid D in forever. I'm afraid that what Fox did against Ball is just what you have to expect when Ball is playing an elite NBA athlete. Problem is, in college he faces one every now and then. In the NBA he faces one about 82 times a year.
i don't think people realize how good fox is off the dribble, and what he did to ball was a glimpse of what he could be with a reliable jump shot.
   3768. Rally Posted: May 19, 2017 at 01:43 PM (#5459413)
Who says no?

Lakers trade: #2 and #28
Kings trade: #5 and #10
   3769. aberg Posted: May 19, 2017 at 01:55 PM (#5459422)
i also don't buy that his range will translate. it might, but it's not a given.


rubio with range out to 30' is a hell of a player. i don't know that that's ball's floor, but it's towards the lower end of his potential outcomes.


I'm no Chip Engelland, but some of this judgment just comes down to watching them both play. Granted, Ball had better shooting numbers than Fultz this year. Even so, Fultz's mechanics are so much better that I'm not completely convinced that Ball is a better shooter. Time will tell.

You also make a good point about Harden's shot selection. Some of that will be on Fultz's coaching staff to get him to buy into being the most efficient version of himself.

Who says no?

Lakers trade: #2 and #28
Kings trade: #5 and #10


Lakers, quickly.
   3770. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 19, 2017 at 02:00 PM (#5459423)
I have trouble evaluating Fultz's shot selection without taking his team into context. How much of his midrange-heavy game is his limitations/preferences vs. playing with two big men and zero spacing preventing him from getting to the rim? What would his selection have been in an offense with better spacing? It's totally possible he's in love with the midrange j in a way that will hold him back, but it seems equally plausible that he opted for a midrange-heavy distribution last year because of terrible offensive spacing. It'll be interesting to see what shots he takes next year.
   3771. theboyqueen Posted: May 19, 2017 at 02:01 PM (#5459424)
Who says no?

Lakers trade: #2 and #28
Kings trade: #5 and #10


Probably both teams, honestly. Kings have no use for the #2 pick because Sacramento drafting Lonzo Ball is the worst idea in the history of the universe.

5 and 10 in THIS draft is a hell of an opportunity.
   3772. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 19, 2017 at 02:14 PM (#5459439)
Dwyane Wade still looks like the logical upside comp for Fultz to me. I just don't know if that's as valuable a skill set now as it was 10 years ago.

Still think Fultz is the #1 prospect in this draft, though, by a whisker over Ball.
   3773. aberg Posted: May 19, 2017 at 02:17 PM (#5459441)
I think Wade is good enough that you take a guy who has a reasonable shot to become him #1 in any area. There might be 5 exceptions in NBA history- guys like Kareem and Shaq.
   3774. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: May 19, 2017 at 02:27 PM (#5459448)
i'm now 87% comfortable with this as my final ranking:
1: ball
2: fultz
3: jackson
4: fox

*gap*
5: isaac

*gap*
6: tatum

i've already talked about ball v. fultz, but to recap: i trust ball's range and i love his combination of elite size and passing, plus very good athleticism and shot selection.

i wouldn't take isaac at 3, but his combination of size, athleticism, shooting and defensive upside is intriguing enough to get him into the conversation. i don't love tatum, but if he gets into the weight room and adds some strength and explosiveness, he could be a significantly better NBA player than he was in college, with legit 2 way upside.

fox has truly elite speed and his first step quickness with the ball is as good as anyone in the world right now. he's long and smooth and fearless going to the rim.

jackson is just so well rounded. he's got size, quickness, defensive upside, some passing ability, intriguing post play, a good step back jumper and his 3P shot really came on in the 2nd half of the season (and his shooting mechanics appeared to be much better, too). it's really easy to see him as one of those "star in your role" players and with his high BBIQ, i think he's someone who could easily exceed that.


my preference for jackson also involves some gamesmanship. the sixers have 4 unprotected first round picks in the next two years (2 of their own, 2018 LAL and 2019 SAC) and i think it'll be easier to use those assets to get a very good to elite PG (through draft or trade) than it will be to get a wing who's comparable to jackson.
   3775. Rally Posted: May 19, 2017 at 02:49 PM (#5459471)
I think Wade is good enough that you take a guy who has a reasonable shot to become him #1 in any area. There might be 5 exceptions in NBA history- guys like Kareem and Shaq.


Maybe the guy picked #1 in Wade's draft too.
   3776. Norcan Posted: May 19, 2017 at 03:08 PM (#5459487)
Dwyane Wade still looks like the logical upside comp for Fultz to me.


I like Fultz a ton but saying it's logical to compare his upside to one of the greatest players of all time is quite a stretch. I don't know why you think Wade might not fit in this era either. Just because he didn't take many threes? He still played predominantly in a pick and roll system and was elite at creating points for himself and his teammates. That would still play right now.

I was happy the Celtics won the lottery but more so because they beat out the Lakers and Sixers to do it. I like 5-6 players pretty equally so I wouldn't have been all that upset if the Celtics had fallen to the 4th spot. Ideally I would love to be able to trade Fultz to the Kings for Tatum and Zach Collins.
   3777. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 19, 2017 at 03:19 PM (#5459503)
Norcan: I think we mean different things by "upside" here. Perhaps I should have said "best case".

All the same though, I don't think it's outlandish to compare the ceiling of a #1 pick to an outer circle all timer. #1 picks frequently become Hall of Famers.
   3778. Oriole Tragic capitalizes on context Posted: May 19, 2017 at 03:36 PM (#5459535)
Who says no?

Lakers trade: #2 and #28
Kings trade: #5 and #10

Lakers, quickly.


CHI had to cough up #16, #19 just to get Dougie at #11, right? Not sure why LAL would have to give another first-rounder along with #2.
   3779. Rally Posted: May 19, 2017 at 03:40 PM (#5459542)
If I'm the Lakers and the Kings would give up 5-10 for 2, I'd definitely take that.

My targets would be Fox and Collins.
   3780. JC in DC Posted: May 19, 2017 at 03:54 PM (#5459562)
If Tatum dropped to the NYK, I'd be pretty happy. That's a guy that Popovich would turn into a star. The Knicks, on the other hand, will turn him into Kenny Walker.

Lykes is a heck of a player. Gonzaga beat DeMatha for the title last year b/c of Lykes (and another kid whose name I forget) and because Fultz was pretty AWOL. Fultz may turn out to be great. All I'm saying is, watching that game, you didn't come away thinking Fultz, your next #1 overall player in the draft. Or, at least I didn't. He is real strong, and he is a good ballhandler and shot producer. Those are things that play in the NBA.
   3781. Oriole Tragic capitalizes on context Posted: May 19, 2017 at 04:06 PM (#5459574)
If I'm the Lakers and the Kings would give up 5-10 for 2, I'd definitely take that.


Sure, but the Kings should probably add a later pick.
   3782. The Good Face Posted: May 19, 2017 at 04:19 PM (#5459587)
Lykes is a heck of a player. Gonzaga beat DeMatha for the title last year b/c of Lykes (and another kid whose name I forget) and because Fultz was pretty AWOL. Fultz may turn out to be great. All I'm saying is, watching that game, you didn't come away thinking Fultz, your next #1 overall player in the draft. Or, at least I didn't. He is real strong, and he is a good ballhandler and shot producer. Those are things that play in the NBA.


Yeah, it's possible that you just caught him on a bad day or something, but I agree with your larger point that he's not a sure thing. Lots of good prospects this year, but there's no LeBron, or even a KAT or Anthony Davis, where you'd be utterly shocked if they didn't become a big star.
   3783. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 19, 2017 at 04:23 PM (#5459592)
If I'm the Lakers and the Kings would give up 5-10 for 2, I'd definitely take that.

I would absolutely love this if only to see the Ball family's reaction.
   3784. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: May 19, 2017 at 04:37 PM (#5459610)
we all agree that the kings would take tatum at #2, right?
   3785. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: May 19, 2017 at 04:48 PM (#5459622)
Jordan Schultz @Schultz_Report
Multiple teams have fallen in love w/Josh Jackson. Is perhaps highest upside player in this draft and has a legit shot to go first overall.
Re #NBADraft, pay very close attention to De'Aaron Fox. Sources have told me there's a fairly good chance he goes ahead of Ball and Jackson.
I asked an NBA coach about LaVar/Lonzo: "I'll make it simple. Lonzo is a good kid. LaVar isn't just crazy, he is completely deranged."
   3786. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: May 19, 2017 at 05:09 PM (#5459647)
Jordan Schultz @Schultz_Report
Multiple teams have fallen in love w/Josh Jackson. Is perhaps highest upside player in this draft and has a legit shot to go first overall.
Re #NBADraft, pay very close attention to De'Aaron Fox. Sources have told me there's a fairly good chance he goes ahead of Ball and Jackson.
I asked an NBA coach about LaVar/Lonzo: "I'll make it simple. Lonzo is a good kid. LaVar isn't just crazy, he is completely deranged."


I wonder what the historical record is of reports like this. Clickbait or an actual chance? I remember when there was this scuttlebutt about taking Russell ahead of Okafor which I kind of dismissed, and then it actually happened and I was surprised. I wish someone tracked this stuff.
   3787. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: May 19, 2017 at 05:34 PM (#5459671)
I wonder what the historical record is of reports like this. Clickbait or an actual chance? I remember when there was this scuttlebutt about taking Russell ahead of Okafor which I kind of dismissed, and then it actually happened and I was surprised. I wish someone tracked this stuff.

i'd say it's 60/40 that fultz/ball go 1-2 to BOS/LAL. that 40% includes possibilities that the draft goes ball/fultz, or that one of the top 2 picks are traded, or that someone else gets taken in the top 2.

so, "something" happening is definitely a legit possibility.
   3788. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 19, 2017 at 06:07 PM (#5459696)
I haven't really done serious research on the prospects yet, but while there are several guys that have very interesting upside, Fultz still feels like the only guy to me that has very interesting upside AND a high probability to be at least an all-star. Lonzo's ceiling might be higher than Fultz's, but I can envision Lonzo busting in a way I can't see with Fultz. YMMV.

I'm still shorting Josh Jackson stock--at least so far as being a top 3 pick goes--but I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise.

I'll be shocked if Philly doesn't take a guard, whichever of Fultz/Ball/Fox is still on the board at 3.

Oh, and final comment: I think the two games in which Fox owned Fultz are being overweighted by Fox partisans/Fultz skeptics.
   3789. aberg Posted: May 19, 2017 at 06:19 PM (#5459707)
Oh, and final comment: I think the two games in which Fox owned Fultz are being overweighted by Fox partisans/Fultz skeptics.


You mean Ball rather than Fultz and I agree. Same as what TGF said in 82- you can't draft a guy based on a game or two.
   3790. tshipman Posted: May 19, 2017 at 06:58 PM (#5459725)
Fultz still feels like the only guy to me that has very interesting upside AND a high probability to be at least an all-star.


I think people consistently overrate draft prospects. Damian Lillard was not an allstar the last two years, for reference.

Fultz absolutely has downside risk. People talk about Ball's shot being broken--and it is super weird--but Fultz hit a lower percentage of FTs than Ball did.

Fultz averaged fewer steals, assists, and rebounds than Ball did and averaged more turnovers and personal fouls. I truly don't see how you can look at the performance record and say that Fultz has lower bust risk than Ball. Ricky Rubio is pretty close to the worst case scenario for Ball. I think that Elfrid Payton is what Fultz's downside looks like.
   3791. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 19, 2017 at 07:15 PM (#5459734)
You mean Ball rather than Fultz and I agree. Same as what TGF said in 82- you can't draft a guy based on a game or two.

Yeah, I'd also say that while "blow by" skill is very impressive and important as a PG offensively, I don't think it's a huge issue defensively unless you're letting it happen to any random guy. IIRC UCLA didn't have any rim protectors.
   3792. covelli chris p Posted: May 19, 2017 at 07:46 PM (#5459743)
Ball reminds me of a souped-up version of Rubio, which you could interpret as a very good or not so good sign.
i don't watch the ncaa, so i haven't seen much of ball, but this sounds about right. also note that rubio was hitting 3s down the stretch this year by going with a bit more of a windup, similar to his free throw release. that's kind of what ball, and his odd release makes me think of. he's going to need a bit more space to get it off. maybe he shoots from 10 feet behind the line, and it works out for him, but maybe it doesn't, and he only gets it off if defenders are daring him to shoot, like they were with rubio ...
   3793. Norcan Posted: May 19, 2017 at 08:17 PM (#5459755)
I think Ball's on the offensive spectrum of a Jason Kidd comp while Rubio is on the defensive spectrum. Ball's got the Kidd traits of stat-stuffing, always looking to pass the ball ahead, extreme unselfishness, 3-point shot but he doesn't project to be the defensive force Kidd was. Rubio's got the passing, stat stuffing and defense of Kidd but hasn't been able to consistently shoot from deep except the last few months of this past season.

Lots of players windup in the NBA. It's basically the standard. Most receive the ball and then dip it to their waist. I don't think Ball is going to have any problems getting his shot off. It's rarely a problem if you passed the filter of getting into the NBA in the first place. More than that, Ball's height, spring off the ground and continuous-motion mechanics should enable him to get his shot off comfortably.

I chortled a little bit reading a blurb about some executives feel Malik Monk might have to convert to point because of his height and lack of length. Come on, his handle and passing would have to improve significantly to become a point. If any of the players should convert to point, it should be Josh Jackson. He's as good a passer as there is in this draft.
   3794. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 19, 2017 at 09:09 PM (#5459790)
Stupid question: On a desktop, how in the hell can you get the TNT livestream on nba.com to give you the same screen shot you get from your TV? No matter what tab I hit, I wind up with some ####### closeup of a handful of players, or some stupid mosaic that's even worse. Who would ever want to watch a game that way? I'm sure I'm missing something, but it's irritating as hell.
   3795. smileyy Posted: May 19, 2017 at 09:16 PM (#5459794)
Ouch
   3796. Harlond Posted: May 19, 2017 at 09:18 PM (#5459796)
Yeah, Celtics got nothing so far. Totally discombobulated.
   3797. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 19, 2017 at 09:21 PM (#5459799)
Yeah, Celtics got nothing so far. Totally discombobulated.

I love the Celtics, but better to get exposed now than in the finals. At least this way the finals should be worth watching. And wait till next year.
   3798. smileyy Posted: May 19, 2017 at 09:24 PM (#5459801)
What's the latest in a game that a team has had 2.5x the points of their opponent?

Probably wasn't in a conference final.
   3799. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: May 19, 2017 at 09:24 PM (#5459802)
a core of thomas/butler/fultz/horford (with a decent to very good bench) is good enough to win a title.
i'd like to amend my statement...
   3800. PJ Martinez Posted: May 19, 2017 at 09:25 PM (#5459803)
At least the Finals is starting to seem interesting. I realize the Celtics are an underwhelming one-seed who are playing badly by their own standards, but Cleveland is starting to look like a team that might give the Warriors some trouble.

Also, I'm warming up to the idea of building around Fultz...
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