Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Wednesday, March 01, 2017

OT - March 2017 NBA thread

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of bothered to submit a monthly thread to avoid detracting from what this site is really about:  I dunno, baseball, maybe?  Probably politics, but maybe some baseball, too.

Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: March 01, 2017 at 11:37 AM | 7430 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 39 of 75 pages ‹ First  < 37 38 39 40 41 >  Last ›
   3801. Rob_Wood Posted: May 19, 2017 at 09:27 PM (#5459804)
flip?
   3802. smileyy Posted: May 19, 2017 at 09:28 PM (#5459806)
If you take away LeBron's points and assisted baskets, it's a close game.
   3803. smileyy Posted: May 19, 2017 at 09:36 PM (#5459810)
A lot of players who'd be happy with LeBron's halftime line in a conference final. 22/3/6 on 14 shots.
   3804. jmurph Posted: May 19, 2017 at 09:45 PM (#5459815)
So, uh, somebody say something about the draft coming up soon?

(I've watched less than 5 real minutes of this series; I'm a major sore loser/poor sport.)
   3805. cmd600 Posted: May 19, 2017 at 09:48 PM (#5459816)
So, uh, somebody say something about the draft coming up soon?


Theyre probably only down 30 with Fultz.
   3806. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 19, 2017 at 09:54 PM (#5459819)
Wow, this is embarrassing. Cleveland is really rounding into form.

LeBron is just balling out of his god damn mind right now.
   3807. maccoach57 Posted: May 19, 2017 at 10:04 PM (#5459823)
86-42? Wow.
   3808. cmd600 Posted: May 19, 2017 at 10:04 PM (#5459824)
From a bit back, but a big reason for Cleveland's turnaround come playoffs is due to fully opening the playbook. Windhorst has relayed stories that, when an assistant under Doc, Lue would come up with schemes that he wanted to save for the playoffs, but Doc wouldn't wait, he wanted to test them before using them in big games, and, you know, winning regular season games was helpful too. Now that Lue is top dog, and has a free pass to the Conf Finals just by dressing Lebron, he's certainly holding back in the regular season. The Cavs have defensive liabilities, but they simply aren't a terrible defensive team when push comes to shove.
   3809. Tin Angel Posted: May 19, 2017 at 10:13 PM (#5459831)
Will bet anyone here $50 that the Cavs win this game.
   3810. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: May 19, 2017 at 10:16 PM (#5459833)
I'm starting to think that there might be more than variance going on here.
   3811. maccoach57 Posted: May 19, 2017 at 10:25 PM (#5459839)
Pelton wrote something prior to postseason about whether the Cavs would be the 2001 Lakers (defending champ, low-ranked D, playoff juggernaut) or the 2003 Lakers (defending champ, low- ranked D, playoff loser).
   3812. smileyy Posted: May 19, 2017 at 10:35 PM (#5459843)
Celtics closing the gap
   3813. Rob_Wood Posted: May 19, 2017 at 10:39 PM (#5459846)
This game is so one-sided that I am not even annoyed in the least by Reggie Miller and Chris Webber announcing the game!

P.S. The most lopsided NBA game I ever attended was a Milwaukee Bucks-Baltimore Bullets game in which Gus Johnson broke the backboard with a thundering dunk on a fastbreak. The game was delayed nearly an hour while the stadium crew retrieved a replacement backboard from high in the rafters (which was far more interesting to watch than the game).
   3814. Booey Posted: May 19, 2017 at 10:49 PM (#5459853)
I like the announcement with 1 minute left in a 44 pt curb stomping that Isaiah Thomas won't be returning this game. Ya think?
   3815. Booey Posted: May 19, 2017 at 10:54 PM (#5459857)
Cavs tie 1987-1988 Lakers with record 13 straight playoff wins.

Well, I was hoping for more competitive conference finals than we've had, but I guess 2 undefeated teams meeting in the Finals would be kind of cool too. Might never see that again.
   3816. JC in DC Posted: May 19, 2017 at 11:04 PM (#5459868)
I told you guys that I wasn't impressed by Toronto playing Cleveland close. This is the team; not that thing we saw during the regular season. I like their chances against GS.
And, of course, it's really all about Lebron.

(Is Isaiah Thomas playing himself out of max money? I don't really follow him that closely, but what do Celtics fans think/feel: do you commit to Thomas?)
   3817. Rally Posted: May 19, 2017 at 11:04 PM (#5459869)
If (when) the Warriors take the court against the Cavaliers, it will be the first time in NBA history that we've had the same matchup 3 times in a row. It feels like the Lakers-Celtics did that every year in the 80's, but they were always broken up by the Rockets or Sixers. They did meet 4 out of 5 times in the 60's, but never did 3 in a row.
   3818. Rally Posted: May 19, 2017 at 11:06 PM (#5459872)
They've got another year before they have to decide if Thomas is a max money guy, Should have a decent feel for what Fultz can do by then, and if he or whoever they pick is a bust they'll have another lottery pick next year. Must be nice.
   3819. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 19, 2017 at 11:33 PM (#5459898)
I peeked into the bar at the restaurant we were having dinner in. People were laughing. Pointing at the televisions and laughing.
   3820. tshipman Posted: May 20, 2017 at 01:09 AM (#5459941)
These last two wins, Cleveland has finally gotten to that next level. They're playing much better defense (although Boston is low-rolling on the 3s), and winning with confidence on the road.
   3821. stevegamer Posted: May 20, 2017 at 01:20 AM (#5459944)
Who says no?

Lakers trade: #2 and #28
Kings trade: #5 and #10


Lakers, unless they have a few guys rated equally there at #2, and one of them is highly valued enough by the Kings for the Kings to be willing to make that deal. Otherwise, the Lakers have a chance of getting stuck with none of the top guys they want.

I think it's more likely that the Celtics would consider a deal like that for just #1, as they seem to have more flexibility in their needs. I could even see a double trade-down from the Celtics to 2-3 presuming they can get something extra from one of their long-time rivals, then down again to what Sac theoretically offered above.
   3822. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: May 20, 2017 at 02:08 AM (#5459949)
I thought the regular season should be shortened to 64 games, now I think maybe it should be shortened to 50 games. What were the Cavs in the last two months of the season, 10-15? It's embarrassing.
   3823. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 20, 2017 at 08:56 AM (#5459968)
P.S. The most lopsided NBA game I ever attended was a Milwaukee Bucks-Baltimore Bullets game in which Gus Johnson broke the backboard with a thundering dunk on a fastbreak. The game was delayed nearly an hour while the stadium crew retrieved a replacement backboard from high in the rafters (which was far more interesting to watch than the game).

You want a lopsided playoff game? Try this one on for size. For one game, the Lakers were like the 1940 Bears against the Redskins. There's never been a more one sided playoff game, and it's tied for the 8th biggest blowout in NBA history.

The only problem for the Lakers is that this was a best-of-three series, not a one game shootout. And in the first and third games the Hawks won by identical 116-115 scores, leaving the Lakers with nothing but a ginormous Pythagorean trophy. It was the NBA equivalent of the 1960 World Series, only even more so.
   3824. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 20, 2017 at 09:09 AM (#5459969)
I thought the regular season should be shortened to 64 games, now I think maybe it should be shortened to 50 games. What were the Cavs in the last two months of the season, 10-15? It's embarrassing.


Yeah, between players increasingly sitting out unimportant games (but still wanting paid for them, mind!) and the increasingly obvious reality that players just coast through most of the remaining ones, it's getting harder and harder for the NBA to sell the regular season as a thing people should get excited about.
   3825. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: May 20, 2017 at 09:42 AM (#5459971)
[3824] The way some of you talk it's as if guys are literally sitting out half of the season rather than a select group of guys sitting maybe 5-10 nights. As far as the "coasting" thing, once again there's maybe...one team this year anyone can try to make a legitimate coasting argument for. So, once again, much ado about nothing.
   3826. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: May 20, 2017 at 09:50 AM (#5459972)
there's probably a way to wean the regular season to 66 games, without losing all of that revenue.

maybe a 3 on 3 tournament that runs concurrently with the regular season.
   3827. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 20, 2017 at 10:27 AM (#5459980)
I think there was probably some coasting. There was a game the Spurs destroyed the Cavs, and in the 3rd quarter the Cavs really tried on defense and they looked pretty good on that side. Irving's a guy that to my eye seems to clearly try harder on defense in the playoffs.

But that said, much of the second half of the season they were playing without Love and JR Smith. They had a bunch of new guys on the team, many of whom aren't good at defense (both guys playing now and guys that aren't on the team, like Derrick Williams). Maybe you do or don't call that coasting, but I think a lot of it was the minutes/rotations they had late in the year weren't and aren't their playoff rotations.

I do think everything looks easy/better when your team is making like 45% of their 3s.
   3828. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: May 20, 2017 at 11:01 AM (#5459986)
I'm still shorting Josh Jackson stock--at least so far as being a top 3 pick goes--but I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise.
the case for jackson, imo, comes down to BBIQ. his is apparently excellent, and if you believe that high BBIQ is closely related to a player achieving his upside, he's someone you should be willing to bet on.
I'll be shocked if Philly doesn't take a guard, whichever of Fultz/Ball/Fox is still on the board at 3.
remember, they've planned on playing ben simmons at PG for about a year now. in addition, there's a lot of smoke around them pursuing jrue holiday and kyle lowry as free agents.
Fultz averaged fewer steals, assists, and rebounds than Ball did and averaged more turnovers and personal fouls. I truly don't see how you can look at the performance record and say that Fultz has lower bust risk than Ball. Ricky Rubio is pretty close to the worst case scenario for Ball. I think that Elfrid Payton is what Fultz's downside looks like.
i don't see elfrid payton as a comp (fultz isn't going to be that bad a shooter), but maybe something like brandon knight or rodney stuckey.
I chortled a little bit reading a blurb about some executives feel Malik Monk might have to convert to point because of his height and lack of length. Come on, his handle and passing would have to improve significantly to become a point. If any of the players should convert to point, it should be Josh Jackson. He's as good a passer as there is in this draft.
i'm not nearly as high on jackson as a primary initiator. maybe the potential is there, but i didn't see it.

i think monk has a chance to convert to PG, but it'd have to be in a situation like SAS or CLE or PHI or HOU, where he's more of a secondary playmaker.
   3829. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: May 20, 2017 at 11:46 AM (#5459999)
Another point re: Cavs "coasting." As I (and others) mentioned when making the LBJ for MVP case, the Cavs differential was really strong when he was in the court. For most teams playoffs means they get to play their best guys a couple minutes more. For the Cavs it means LBJ almost never sits.
   3830. vagab0nd kills for candy Posted: May 20, 2017 at 12:18 PM (#5460004)
Another point re: Cavs "coasting." As I (and others) mentioned when making the LBJ for MVP case, the Cavs differential was really strong when he was in the court. For most teams playoffs means they get to play their best guys a couple minutes more. For the Cavs it means LBJ almost never sits.


cavs regular seasonlebron on/off 
     ortg    drtg
on   118.4   110.0
off  103.7   112.3

cavs playoffs
lebron on/off
     ortg    drtg
on   122.4   107.8
off  113.7   132.7 


lebron has played 88% of the cavs playoff minutes (vs 70% of regular season minutes), so the playoff off numbers are essentially meaningless, but it shows that not only is lebron playing more minutes, the team is also playing significantly better.
   3831. tshipman Posted: May 20, 2017 at 12:24 PM (#5460007)
[3824] The way some of you talk it's as if guys are literally sitting out half of the season rather than a select group of guys sitting maybe 5-10 nights. As far as the "coasting" thing, once again there's maybe...one team this year anyone can try to make a legitimate coasting argument for. So, once again, much ado about nothing.


Further, the only games that really show the Cavs not coasting are these last two games against Boston.

Other than that, the Cavs rode hot shooting to two 4 game sweeps.
   3832. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: May 20, 2017 at 12:36 PM (#5460012)

Further, the only games that really show the Cavs not coasting are these last two games against Boston.

Other than that, the Cavs rode hot shooting to two 4 game sweeps.


It's arguable whether this is true or not and I'd certainly disagree. That said, it doesn't really matter what your previous stance is now. It's pretty clear that the Cavaliers are playing significantly better now than they were in the regular season.
   3833. vagab0nd kills for candy Posted: May 20, 2017 at 12:57 PM (#5460020)
kawhi out for game 3.
   3834. JC in DC Posted: May 20, 2017 at 01:32 PM (#5460030)
Isn't there some plausible space between "coasting" and playoff focus, where, arguably, many good teams often reside, sometimes perhaps even within games themselves? Are we really to think that Cleveland was as focused during a game in New Orleans as they are now, even if they weren't coasting, but trying to win?

Aside from all that, what did people make of Boston yesterday? Clearly, Cleveland is white hot, but Boston was horrible. From the outset they seemed desperate and whiny. Maybe they were? Maybe they had that sense if they didn't come out well, they were in deep doo doo? But, man, their offense was awful.
   3835. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 20, 2017 at 01:38 PM (#5460032)
Yeah, Boston's really not been impressive. Even the earlier series - beating Washington's not unimpressive, but they were down big in a bunch of the games. And that win against Chicago was far scrappier than it needs to be. When Thomas has a bad game, they are gonna get blown out against a good team. It's that simple.
   3836. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 20, 2017 at 01:48 PM (#5460038)
Isn't there some plausible space between "coasting" and playoff focus, where, arguably, many good teams often reside, sometimes perhaps even within games themselves? Are we really to think that Cleveland was as focused during a game in New Orleans as they are now, even if they weren't coasting, but trying to win?

A set of related questions would be this: What is the obligation of a team that's locked up a playoff spot? Is it to concentrate on focusing on the rings, which might mean resting your regulars? Or is it to put your best team on the floor every night and go all out to win every game?

And are there different obligations for home or road games, since your home town fans get to see you 41 games a year, whereas some road city fans might only see you once or twice, and may have planned ahead for months and paid a premium price for their tickets? Clearly there are competing interests here.

As someone who watches basketball exclusively on TV, I care far more about seeing the best possible postseason games than I do about relatively meaningless regular season games, but if I'd planned months ahead to fly to Phoenix or Orlando just to see the Cavs or the Warriors play, I might have a different perspective.
   3837. JJ1986 Posted: May 20, 2017 at 01:54 PM (#5460041)
I think the NBA would probably be fractionally better if great teams tried to win every game, but it would be vastly improved if we didn't have half-a-dozen bad teams tanking for two months.
   3838. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 20, 2017 at 02:03 PM (#5460044)
I think the NBA would probably be fractionally better if great teams tried to win every game, but it would be vastly improved if we didn't have half-a-dozen bad teams tanking for two months.

Which is a very good point that often gets lost in the talk about the former problem.
   3839. tshipman Posted: May 20, 2017 at 02:20 PM (#5460049)
Isn't there some plausible space between "coasting" and playoff focus, where, arguably, many good teams often reside, sometimes perhaps even within games themselves? Are we really to think that Cleveland was as focused during a game in New Orleans as they are now, even if they weren't coasting, but trying to win?


yeah, this is most teams.
The canonical example of the "coast" team is the 2001 Lakers. They had a 108.4 ORating and a 104.8 DRating.

In the playoffs, that changed to 111.6 ORating and a 97.9 DRating.

That was a team that coasted--they improved on offense, mostly by hitting 38% vs. 34% on 3pers, but they completely changed as a defensive team. They went from one of the worst defensive teams to what would have been a league leading defense.
   3840. vagab0nd kills for candy Posted: May 20, 2017 at 03:06 PM (#5460061)
the 01 Lakers were 21st in the league in regular season drtg and the 2 seed in their conference and had the most dominant player in the game on their team and employed ty lue.

you know who else was 21st in regular season drtg and the 2 seed in their conference and have the most dominant player in the game on their team and employ ty lue??

when the cavs drop game 1 to the Warriors, that's just further proof that they're going to go on to win the next 4, and win their 2nd straight title.
   3841. maccoach57 Posted: May 20, 2017 at 03:59 PM (#5460073)
One note on the 01 Lakers: Derek Fisher played only 20 games for that team in the reg season due to an injury, and hit 25/63 on 3s. Then he played all 16 playoff games and went 35/68 from the arc, or 51.5%. That was the main difference in the Lakers postseason 3p%--Fox, Horry, and Bryant were all around their norms.

Korver hit .485 from 3 for the Cavs in 35 games, and is at .432 in postseason. Irving has not been good from 3 in postseason--.288. But Williams, Frye, Love, Smith, and James have all gone apeshit from the arc in postseason (reg season/postseason below):

James .363/.458
Frye .409/.545
Smith .351/.444
Love .373/.455
Williams .415/.500 (with CLE)

I tend to avoid body language etc. arguments, but I can see how this would be demoralizing for opponents, and Boston certainly looked demoralized last night. You are dealing with six guys, including two bigs, raining down threes on your head, and when that is not happening, you are dealing with LeBron James kicking your ass. Would be tough to keep battling, even for a good pro team with a good coach, which Boston is.

So, while I did say, like pretty much everybody else on the planet, that I would be very surprised if we did not see GS/CLE again, I had the narrative all wrong. We have had a pretty dull playoff month but will probably have an epic Finals if Cleveland keeps shooting well from distance.

   3842. Paul d mobile Posted: May 20, 2017 at 06:33 PM (#5460129)
Have the finals ever featured two teams who haven't lost in the playoffs?
   3843. PJ Martinez Posted: May 20, 2017 at 07:00 PM (#5460151)
Thomas out for the rest of the playoffs.

It was a good run. I'm now rooting for Conference Finals sweeps* to 1) set up the possibly unprecedented (?) scenario mentioned above, and 2) just get them over with already. Here's to a great Finals.

* I mean, while I'm watching C's-Cavs I'll be pulling for the C's, but sweeps do seem like what's best for just about everyone at this point, probably.
   3844. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 20, 2017 at 07:02 PM (#5460153)
Clears throat, gets attention of the bar - the Spurs could have beaten Golden State not just in one game, but in the series, if Kawhi wasn't hurt. Thank you, that is all.
   3845. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: May 20, 2017 at 07:21 PM (#5460163)
I agree with that. I'm not saying that the Spurs would have beaten the Warriors but it is certainly possible.
   3846. sardonic Posted: May 20, 2017 at 09:36 PM (#5460218)
Curry's foul trouble has definitely really messed up the W's rotations end of this quarter -- the unit with Barnes and Iguodala has never seen the floor together IIRC, and Iguodala himself hasn't played since the first half of Game 1.
   3847. sardonic Posted: May 20, 2017 at 09:40 PM (#5460225)
Clears throat, gets attention of the bar - the Spurs could have beaten Golden State not just in one game, but in the series, if Kawhi wasn't hurt. Thank you, that is all.


I'd like to think that most people here at least would agree with this.
   3848. tshipman Posted: May 20, 2017 at 10:02 PM (#5460243)
Refs are letting a looooooot of contact go here.

Feels like every jump shot you could call a foul, and some of them are fairly egregious.
   3849. Tin Angel Posted: May 20, 2017 at 10:09 PM (#5460247)
"This big man is not afraid of the big moment!"

He just flopped in the second quarter of a series they are down 2-0.
   3850. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 20, 2017 at 11:14 PM (#5460301)
Spurs are working hard, but scoring one point over these last 4:30 or so doesn't help them. As valiant as the Spurs are, you really have to give it up for the Warriors' defense.
   3851. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: May 20, 2017 at 11:37 PM (#5460317)
LaMarcus Aldridge is soooo bad.

No, but like really. Give anyone 20 shots and he'll score some points sometimes but he is like not a good basketball player.

<bitter>
   3852. tshipman Posted: May 20, 2017 at 11:59 PM (#5460328)
Who says no?


Only sort of kidding.
   3853. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 21, 2017 at 12:11 AM (#5460330)
I'd like to think that most people here at least would agree with this.

Perhaps. But I'm not sure I really believed it before the series started, and there's been much talk here and elsewhere about how the regular season didn't matter and how Cleveland vs. Golden State was an inevitability, and then it wasn't. Golden State has gotten a pretty crazy run of injury luck this playoffs. Nurkic, then Gobert/Hill, then Kawhi. I meak, obviously Nurkic was not the difference in that series, but in general they've had a way easier path than it could have been against those same teams, and I don't think it is appropriate to act like this was inevitable rather than variance.

It's really a shame, because if the Spurs got their ass kicked by Golden State with their roster, then I'd have been happy. Happy they got the shot to take them on, and just accept that Golden State was not beatable by the Spurs. But that's not what happened. Now, it's not Kendrick Perkins missing Game 7 asterisk level, but we have a big asterisk here on any Golden State/Durant title, and I'm sure that will haunt them.

As for the East, I mean, christ, the East. What is that conference? I think the Spurs without Leonard would probably beat Boston straight up in a best of 7.
   3854. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 21, 2017 at 12:23 AM (#5460334)
As for the East, I mean, christ, the East. What is that conference? I think the Spurs without Leonard would probably beat Boston straight up in a best of 7.

Which means what? The only matchup that matters now is the one that'll be starting on the 1st of June. The Spurs and the Celtics are old news already.
   3855. stevegamer Posted: May 21, 2017 at 02:04 AM (#5460353)
Who says no?

Only sort of kidding.


I may be in the minority, but I think the 76ers would do that. Unsure about the Spurs, but I strongly suspect Popovich could make Okafor work out fine.

   3856. maccoach57 Posted: May 21, 2017 at 04:23 AM (#5460355)
...obviously Nurkic was not the difference in that series, but in general they've had a way easier path than it could have been against those same teams, and I don't think it is appropriate to act like this was inevitable rather than variance.

It's really a shame, because if the Spurs got their ass kicked by Golden State with their roster, then I'd have been happy. Happy they got the shot to take them on, and just accept that Golden State was not beatable by the Spurs. But that's not what happened. Now, it's not Kendrick Perkins missing Game 7 asterisk level, but we have a big asterisk here on any Golden State/Durant title, and I'm sure that will haunt them.


Couple of points here:

1. Lowe has written a few times that if you look at the history, most championship teams benefit from opponent injuries and/or breaks with matchups. Losing Leonard is obviously a really big deal for SA, but the Nurkic and Gobert injuries are not a deal at all in historical context.
2. Golden State won 67 games and finished 1st in ORTG and 2nd in DRTG. They would have been solid favorites even in the WCF even if SA had had Leonard, and I think you are probably focusing too much on what the score was in the early part of G1. The whole "asterisk" thing was one of Bill Simmons' most Simmonish ideas in any case, and if Golden State beats James and Cleveland, pretty much no one will put any qualifiers on their title and no one other than SA fans will be at all focused on Leonard's injury. The caveat, perhaps, would be if Leonard and SA knock a healthy GS team out next year, but that is a long reach.
   3857. MHS Posted: May 21, 2017 at 08:03 AM (#5460360)
I few pages back I said Cleveland was going to walk through the conference finals.

I didn't write this but I expected the Celtics would be competitive in a couple games, instead of destroyed. Part of it is their shots aren't falling and Cleveland are. Part of it is IT hasn't been good enough/hurt. Part of it IT can't be effective unless the refs call contact at point of attack and at the rim consistent with the regular season. A big part of it is they aren't good enough at 3, 5, 6 or 7.

The biggest part is they have Lebron. LOL he is ridiculous.
   3858. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: May 21, 2017 at 10:32 AM (#5460382)
can we all acknowledge that the biggest asterisk of all this season is joel embiid's injury.
   3859. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: May 21, 2017 at 10:37 AM (#5460385)
Who says no?


Only sort of kidding.
i'd do it, but i think aldridge would be better off going to a different team. maybe toronto or charlotte.
   3860. #6bid has 0 to 2 technicals Posted: May 21, 2017 at 11:13 AM (#5460407)
Golden State beats James and Cleveland, pretty much no one will put any qualifiers on their title


I don't remember anyone putting asterisks on the Warriors' 2015 title because Love and Irving were injured.

Also Golden State has its own injury problems. Replacing Kerr with Brown (on the sidelines at least) may cost them significantly. We will see.
   3861. tshipman Posted: May 21, 2017 at 11:34 AM (#5460413)
The whole asterisk thing is something that Boston fans started to make themselves feel better about only winning one championship.

Of course, Andrew Bynum was injured in the season that Boston actually won it.
   3862. maccoach57 Posted: May 21, 2017 at 12:27 PM (#5460420)
I don't remember anyone putting asterisks on the Warriors' 2015 title because Love and Irving were injured.

Also Golden State has its own injury problems. Replacing Kerr with Brown (on the sidelines at least) may cost them significantly. We will see.


As to the first point, yes to some extent, but I also think that one of the narratives for GS/CLE will be "Let's settle this." CLE fans will point to Love and Irving re. 2015, and I know that there are GS fans who think that Curry's presumably not being 100% and Green's getting suspended is what decided 2016. In 2017, we are close to both teams being healthy and coming into the Finals undefeated, so there will be sort of a 1970s Ali-Frazier vibe to the Finals.

As to Kerr, my own opinion on coaches is that their main contributions are putting players into position to succeed, through a variety of things they can do to that end, and managing people well/setting the tone. Popovich is brilliant at both, and that is why he is Popovich. Since Kerr is around to advise, look at video, etc. and GS's system is in place, I don't think his sideline absence matters much. Luke Walton went 39-4 when Kerr was out last year. When Mike Brown was the Lakers' coach in 2012, the lockout year, the Lakers' blogosphere spent the year trashing him. Brown has a twitchy sideline presence, is not great in interviews, etc. People were always second-guessing his tactics and play calls, and some players said some wiseass stuff about him in the media. Yet the Lakers went 10-4 in games decided by 3 or less, 4-1 in overtime games, beat their PYTH by 5 games, won a playoff series, and played OKC pretty tough in the conference semis even though they lost in 5. There was some luck involved--Bynum, Gasol, and Bryant all stayed healthy, and as noted they beat their PYTH. But there was no real evidence that Brown had hurt the team, and looking at now, Mike Brown just became the first coach ever to lead a team back from 25 down against a Popovich team, which is what happens when you have Curry and Durant and the other guy loses Kawhi Leonard.


   3863. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 21, 2017 at 12:43 PM (#5460423)
The whole "asterisk" thing was one of Bill Simmons' most Simmonish ideas in any case
At the time it was written, I actually went through his entire list and found that Simmons' asterisks would have awarded Boston something like 20 more championships. As far as Simmons is concerned, Boston's good and everyone else got lucky.
   3864. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 21, 2017 at 12:55 PM (#5460425)
The whole "asterisk" thing was one of Bill Simmons' most Simmonish ideas in any case


At the time it was written, I actually went through his entire list and found that Simmons' asterisks would have awarded Boston something like 20 more championships. As far as Simmons is concerned, Boston's good and everyone else got lucky

I love the Celtics, but you've got to remember that Simmons grew up listening to Johnny Most, who never saw a Celtic commit a single foul. As another famous Bostonian would've put it: Nuf sed.
   3865. sardonic Posted: May 21, 2017 at 12:59 PM (#5460427)
1. Lowe has written a few times that if you look at the history, most championship teams benefit from opponent injuries and/or breaks with matchups. Losing Leonard is obviously a really big deal for SA, but the Nurkic and Gobert injuries are not a deal at all in historical context.


Mostly this. I mean, sure, Portland lost Nurkic, but the Warriors lost this guy called Kevin Durant for 3 games in that series. Last season Curry missed 6 games in the playoffs. Key rotation pieces like Andre Iguodala, Shaun Livingston, Zaza Pachulia and Andrew Bogut have missed games over the last two playoffs. I guess my point isn't to try to judge who's been "luckier" with injuries, but that even the Warriors have dealt with injuries too, and that injuries are just part of the playoff landscape, series in and series out.
   3866. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 21, 2017 at 02:12 PM (#5460446)
I love the Celtics, but you've got to remember that Simmons grew up listening to Johnny Most, who never saw a Celtic commit a single foul.
Oh, I know, and that's what annoys me so much about how Simmons is now considered an authoritative voice on NBA history. His biases aren't just obvious, but proudly so.
   3867. Thok Posted: May 21, 2017 at 06:55 PM (#5460582)
Since somebody sort of asked about this, I'm pretty sure the best combined record for NBA finalists going into the NBA Finals comes from the 1988-89 Lakers (11-0) and Pistons (11-2, both losses to the Jordan Bulls in the conference finals).

That was a pretty anticlimactic series, since the Lakers lost Byron Scott to injury before the series start and lost Magic early in game 3; Detroit ended up sweeping the Lakers.
   3868. cmd600 Posted: May 21, 2017 at 06:58 PM (#5460583)
the Spurs could have beaten Golden State not just in one game, but in the series,


Sure, "could have" covers a helluva lot of ground. But the Warriors were -1000 to win the series before game one. The Cavs were only -550.
   3869. frannyzoo Posted: May 21, 2017 at 07:20 PM (#5460589)
I, too, would have loved to have bet Warriors v. Spurs with anybody here pre-WCF and obviously pre-Kawhi injury. Yes, the series would have gone longer and been far more interesting, but GS would have won it.
   3870. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 21, 2017 at 08:12 PM (#5460600)
I honestly don't believe there's ever been a basketball team that, with 2017 rules, can beat a healthy 2017 Warriors team four games out of seven.

We'll see if the Cavaliers can prove me wrong about that.
   3871. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 21, 2017 at 08:16 PM (#5460601)
I would have said that same thing last season. I think the Warriors are the favorites, but I won't put up any money against LeBron.
   3872. Harlond Posted: May 21, 2017 at 08:21 PM (#5460602)
Charles Barkley just said if Lebron wins it all this year, he'll put right next to Kobe.
   3873. maccoach57 Posted: May 21, 2017 at 08:32 PM (#5460607)
I honestly don't believe there's ever been a basketball team that, with 2017 rules, can beat a healthy 2017 Warriors team four games out of seven.

We'll see if the Cavaliers can prove me wrong about that.


If Cleveland beats GS again and James has another monster series, then I think that puts him ahead of Jordan for me. He may be there anyway, but I am personally not sure.
   3874. smileyy Posted: May 21, 2017 at 08:44 PM (#5460609)
I've been thinking about my top 50 from a few years ago and I think I'm ready to GOAT LeBron.
   3875. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: May 21, 2017 at 09:01 PM (#5460610)
Kevin Love is playing really well right now and it'd be huge for the Cavaliers if he can play this well against the Warriors. Honestly, it does seem to me that the Cavaliers are a better team than the team that won the championship last year, and the way that Love is playing right now is a big part of that.

Also, it would have been interesting to see how the Warriors played Leonard, because he's the closest thing to James in the league right now.
   3876. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: May 21, 2017 at 09:10 PM (#5460612)

If Cleveland beats GS again and James has another monster series, then I think that puts him ahead of Jordan for me.


I agree, that would definitely vault LeBron into the #2 position.
   3877. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: May 21, 2017 at 09:15 PM (#5460614)
I agree, that would definitely vault LeBron into the #2 position.

Who is your number 1?
   3878. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 21, 2017 at 09:17 PM (#5460615)
Only a Wilt Chamberlain True Believer would make such a post and be serious.
   3879. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: May 21, 2017 at 09:17 PM (#5460616)
Also, it would have been interesting to see how the Warriors played Leonard, because he's the closest thing to James in the league right now.

I think Kawhi and LeBron's playing styles are so different that they aren't at all comparable.

Kevin Love is playing really well right now and it'd be huge for the Cavaliers if he can play this well against the Warriors. Honestly, it does seem to me that the Cavaliers are a better team than the team that won the championship last year, and the way that Love is playing right now is a big part of that.

No matter how well Love plays offensively, if he can't stay on the court defensively it won't matter.
   3880. smileyy Posted: May 21, 2017 at 09:24 PM (#5460618)
I remember quite a few people with Kareem at #1
   3881. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: May 21, 2017 at 09:25 PM (#5460619)
Only a Wilt Chamberlain True Believer would make such a post and be serious.

Kareem?

Coke for Smileyy.
   3882. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 21, 2017 at 09:26 PM (#5460620)
I remember quite a few people with Kareem at #1


Yeah, but the Kareem and Jordan people are usually (almost always) reasonable about it. Wilt boosters are usually religious zealots. It's kind of weird.

I personally list Jordan #1 but I think the Kareem > Jordan case has substantial merit.
   3883. cmd600 Posted: May 21, 2017 at 09:31 PM (#5460622)
No matter how well Love plays offensively, if he can't stay on the court defensively it won't matter.


Who are the Cavs going to put out there that is enough of a defensive improvement? Their goal should be to match the 120 points that the Warriors are going to put up regardless of who is playing defense.
   3884. smileyy Posted: May 21, 2017 at 09:32 PM (#5460623)
Prediction: if the Cavs shoot 60% from 3...
   3885. Harlond Posted: May 21, 2017 at 09:34 PM (#5460625)
Celtics playing much better this game. They're down 18, but Cavs are on fire from 3.
   3886. smileyy Posted: May 21, 2017 at 09:34 PM (#5460626)
Defense shmefense if Love is going to hit 7 three pointers per half.
   3887. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2017 at 09:41 PM (#5460627)
I agree with robin about Kerr/Brown. I might even go further: I think Brown is an above average coach. Kerr's absence is meaningless, more or less. The decision to stick with Curry yesterday when he had 3 fouls shows that. That was a good call, and Kerr's absence had no impact upon it.

I'm a Kareem #1 guy. I think he's still there, but I acknowledge some of that is bias: I don't know how to rank guys from this era given the vastly different ballhandling rules. The capacity to carry and travel has transformed the game.
   3888. Rally Posted: May 21, 2017 at 09:46 PM (#5460628)
Kevin Love can be among the best basketball players in the world. Mostly the 3 point shooting, but also rebounding and outlet passes. He can also disappear and look like a replacement level player sometimes, Good to see awesome Love again tonight.
   3889. Rally Posted: May 21, 2017 at 09:49 PM (#5460629)
I love Kareem but I have a hard time considering him as GOAT. He won a single championship as a the undisputed top player on the team. If it weren't for Magic Johnson he would have ended his career with 1. Russell, Jordan, and Lebron are the serious candidates IMO.
   3890. cmd600 Posted: May 21, 2017 at 09:52 PM (#5460630)

I love Kareem but I have a hard time considering him as GOAT. He won a single championship as a the undisputed top player on the team. If it weren't for Magic Johnson he would have ended his career with 1. Russell, Jordan, and Lebron are the serious candidates IMO.


I hope one day we can get to a point where the only argument used isnt "count da ringz". Unfortunately, we seem to br going backwards on this.
   3891. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 21, 2017 at 10:00 PM (#5460635)
I think basketball is the only sport where Count The Rings has some legitimacy as an argument. But it's hard to draw a clear line between AROM's argument against Kareem and the people who claim e.g. that LeBron just won his first and probably only title if not for Dwyane Wade.

Personally I break the virtual tie in Jordan's favor over Kareem based on the theory that in a pickup game with my life on the line I would pick Jordan first. LeBron has gotten way up there, though.
   3892. CFBF Rides The Zombie Ice Dragon Posted: May 21, 2017 at 10:03 PM (#5460636)
My dad, who's not a basketball fan, is watching the game and he texted me, "Some big white guy for Boston walks on the court and the crowd just got ugly. Wondered what the story was."

I assume that's Olynyk.
   3893. cmd600 Posted: May 21, 2017 at 10:11 PM (#5460639)
I think basketball is the only sport where Count The Rings has some legitimacy as an argument.


But even in the NBA, and even with a guy like Lebron, he doesn't win last year, which apparently got him in the GOAT conversation for many, and is less likely to win this year, which will seal it for many, without Tristan Thompson and JR Smith. Sure, Lebron is the straw that stirs the drink, but the argument boils down to saying he's a lesser player if he had Varejao and Waiters instead. That makes no sense to me.
   3894. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2017 at 10:13 PM (#5460640)
I think basketball is the only sport where Count The Rings has some legitimacy as an argument. But it's hard to draw a clear line between AROM's argument against Kareem and the people who claim e.g. that LeBron just won his first and probably only title if not for Dwyane Wade.


I haven't thought this all the way through, and I'd be interested in input from others, but I wonder if the legitimacy of this statement is higher now than it was in the past, as the NBA consciously has striven to market players as superstars over teams? As great as any player from a prior era was, he was (I think!) more dependent upon the team structure and emphasis than players may be now. This is not to say that it's all or nothing. I'm talking about emphasis. No one expected Julius or Kareem or Bird or even Magic to just walk the ball up the court and consider how he would score/attack the basket. (And to those who say they weren't able to do that, I disagree; that's the point I'm making about ballhandling: the way the game is called now allows guys - nearly any guys - to advance the ball/attack the basket irrespective of size and to some extent with less reliance on passing b/c you can carry so much and take an extra step.
   3895. frannyzoo Posted: May 21, 2017 at 10:16 PM (#5460641)
I hate to get old, so to speak, but if you young folks can see some "Lew Alcindor" with the Bucks footage via YT, you'll see a level of dominance and importance that goes beyond "ringz." He didn't go to the Lakers until '75 when he was about 28 years-old. The Bucks were generally in Clips & Pacers territory. This was well before any player could have "The Announcement" or whatever the Hell it was called. Kareem was, and is, almost unimaginably good/important. Hell, he made Wilt look average.

If Kareem had, say, gone to Boston and eased Russell out into retirement, the number of "ringz" would have been almost double digits. Nothing against LeBron, Jordan, or anybody, but just watch the old YT and observe the stats.
   3896. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2017 at 10:29 PM (#5460642)
To Franny's point, compare the Bucks' season before Alcindor's arrival to his first with the team. Within a few years, they won the championship, and were back in the Finals again shortly thereafter. They were nearly always competitive with him. (I need to stop: I'm relitigating the point!)
   3897. Booey Posted: May 21, 2017 at 10:34 PM (#5460644)
I think basketball is the only sport where Count The Rings has some legitimacy as an argument


Not much, IMO. So much of winning still depends on supporting cast, coaching, timing, luck, injuries, "variance", etc. Jordan was just as good in 1988-1990 when the Bulls weren't making the Finals as he was in any of his title years. LeBron was just as good in 2009-2010 when he wasn't making the Finals as he was during his current 7 year Finals streak. The difference was Wade/Bosh and Irving/Love vs whatever random stiffs were filling out the roster his first stint in Cleveland. Not that anyone talks about KG as a GOAT contender (rightly), but he's a top 15 or 20 guy that probably wins just 2 playoff series in his entire career if he sticks it out in Minnesota. Chris Paul is a top 20 type player that might never get past the 2nd round if he doesn't go the super friends route this offseason.

So yeah, I can see how it's theoretically possible for even a GOAT contender to be short on hardware.
   3898. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: May 21, 2017 at 10:42 PM (#5460650)
So this is actually a game.
   3899. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2017 at 10:49 PM (#5460651)
I know this isn't the thread for this, but Sidney Crosby is underrated. That guy is an all-timer. (The GOAT made me think of it, b/c I thought of Ovetchkin, who never wins, and then I thought of Crosby. Apologies.)
   3900. smileyy Posted: May 21, 2017 at 10:51 PM (#5460652)
IMO, Chris Paul gets docked for his lack of playoff success.
Page 39 of 75 pages ‹ First  < 37 38 39 40 41 >  Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Sheer Tim Foli
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

Sox TherapyA Container of Milk, A Loaf of Bread and a Dude Who Can Hit Home Runs
(15 - 11:38pm, Dec 11)
Last: Jose is an Absurd Doubles Machine

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 12-11-2017
(21 - 11:21pm, Dec 11)
Last: Eric J can SABER all he wants to

NewsblogOTP 11 December, 2017 - GOP strategist: Moore would have 'date with a baseball bat' if he tried dating teens where I grew up
(353 - 11:20pm, Dec 11)
Last: greenback wears sandals on his head

NewsblogJack Morris, Alan Trammell elected to Hall | MLB.com
(144 - 11:19pm, Dec 11)
Last: kwarren

NewsblogRyan Thibs has his HOF Ballot Tracker Up and Running!
(347 - 11:13pm, Dec 11)
Last: Downing Almost Deserves It

Hall of Merit2018 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion
(327 - 11:05pm, Dec 11)
Last: Bleed the Freak

NewsblogDerek Jeter's defense of Giancarlo Stanton trade was weak | SI.com
(14 - 10:43pm, Dec 11)
Last: stevegamer

NewsblogOT - NBA 2017-2018 Tip-off Thread
(1907 - 10:40pm, Dec 11)
Last: JC in DC

NewsblogThis will be Giancarlo Stanton’s biggest New York adjustment | New York Post
(1 - 10:28pm, Dec 11)
Last: ReggieThomasLives

NewsblogTexas Rangers: Shohei Ohtani or not, Rangers still considering nontraditional 6-man, 4-man rotations next season | SportsDay
(12 - 10:04pm, Dec 11)
Last: PreservedFish

NewsblogYankees in talks on Giancarlo Stanton trade
(198 - 9:32pm, Dec 11)
Last: ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

NewsblogMets have talked to teams about trading Matt Harvey: sources - NY Daily News
(7 - 6:49pm, Dec 11)
Last: JJ1986

Gonfalon CubsLooking to next year
(318 - 6:48pm, Dec 11)
Last: Andere Richtingen

NewsblogOT: Winter Soccer Thread
(313 - 5:03pm, Dec 11)
Last: SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY

Hall of MeritBattle of the Uber-Stat Systems (Win Shares vs. WARP)!
(375 - 3:36pm, Dec 11)
Last: Carl Goetz

Page rendered in 0.5765 seconds
47 querie(s) executed