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Thursday, August 30, 2012

OT: Sept 2012 Regular Season NFL Football Thread

New season, new threads.

First game is next Wed., on Sept. 5th, Cowboys vs Giants at Metlife Stadium in New York.

Tripon Posted: August 30, 2012 at 07:32 PM | 591 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: football

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   401. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: October 01, 2012 at 12:14 PM (#4249937)
I forget which game last night I saw a fake field goal. But as much as I would like to applaud the head coach for trying it, it's a really retarded play to have the place kicker behind the line of scrimmage trying to throw a pass amidst chaos. He can't throw passes, and it's silly to watch him try.

Haven't seen the play in question, but usually on fake FGs, it isn't the kicker who makes the throw, but the holder, who also typically happens to be the backup QB.
   402. Eddo Posted: October 01, 2012 at 12:19 PM (#4249945)
Haven't seen the play in question, but usually on fake FGs, it isn't the kicker who makes the throw, but the holder, who also typically happens to be the backup QB.

That's very rare these days - it's almost always the punter who holds on field goals. That's due to practice time reasons - the backup QB has to spend time with the offense, while the special teamers (kicker, punter, long snapper) get tons of time between them to perfect their timing.
   403. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 01, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4249951)
#400, in this case, it was the kicker who tried the throw.

Which game was it... I watched Jets/49ers, Giants/Eagles, Packers/Saints, Broncos/Raiders.

I think it was the Packers who tried it. I forget.
   404. zack Posted: October 01, 2012 at 12:25 PM (#4249959)
I think the problem with the refs is that humans just aren't capable of doing this. Take the problem with calling balls and strikes in baseball and multiply it by 100. It permeates the league. Same with the foul calls in basketball, which are seemingly random at times.



That's only a problem if you think the refs' job is to correctly penalize every infraction, which I don't think it is. The refs' job is to disincentivize crappy play.
   405. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 01, 2012 at 12:35 PM (#4249971)
the good crews work to call what is obvious

the bad crews anticipate and look bad when what they expected does not happen
   406. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 01, 2012 at 12:54 PM (#4249998)
Rams ran a successful fake FG. The rookie punter made the pass, but apparently he was a QB in high school.

Jesus, I wanted the Chiefs to hire Jeff Fisher SOOOOO BADLY.
   407. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: October 01, 2012 at 01:34 PM (#4250046)
That's very rare these days - it's almost always the punter who holds on field goals. That's due to practice time reasons - the backup QB has to spend time with the offense, while the special teamers (kicker, punter, long snapper) get tons of time between them to perfect their timing.

I thought practice time considerations were the reason why the backup QB was typically the holder. I.e. give the guy something to do while the starting QB takes all the reps.
   408. zenbitz Posted: October 01, 2012 at 01:39 PM (#4250050)
Confirmation bias or not - the regular refs made some bad calls but "seemed" better. The especially seemed to get the reviewable ones right (that I saw - there was apparently one badly called fumble Sunday), and nobody got extra timeouts.

On fake field goals and punts - there is some game theory operating here. Coaches should probably be way more aggressive on fakes, non-mandatory onside kicks, and 4th downs... but they are worried about making a bad call that costs them their job.

In the Jets/Niners game (you are glad you missed it, even as a Niner fan it was super boring outside of Out Tebowing the Tebows) - the announcers were wondering why a (horrible) Mark Sanchez wasn't pulled in the 4th quarter down 20+ points for Magician Tebow.

"What have you got to lose" doesn't really apply in game 4 of a 16 game season. Tebow's not going to win the game for you and by pulling your QB to have to deal with the fallout in the following weeks.
   409. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 01, 2012 at 01:42 PM (#4250054)
certainly the backup in green bay doesn't get much practice time with the first string offense. at least that was the explanation as to why graham harrell looked so horrendous taking his one and only snap in a live game in his career yesterday.

   410. just plain joe Posted: October 01, 2012 at 02:38 PM (#4250113)
certainly the backup in green bay doesn't get much practice time with the first string offense. at least that was the explanation as to why graham harrell looked so horrendous taking his one and only snap in a live game in his career yesterday.


That was the case in Indianapolis as well with the sundry and assorted backups to Peyton Manning; they seldom took any snaps in practice, much less in a game. One of the many things that bit the Colts in the ass once Manning went down and was no longer available to play.
   411. JJ1986 Posted: October 01, 2012 at 02:42 PM (#4250118)
One of the many things that bit the Colts in the ass once Manning went down and was no longer available to play.


All the practice time in the world wouldn't have made Curtis Painter acceptable.
   412. just plain joe Posted: October 01, 2012 at 03:16 PM (#4250158)
All the practice time in the world wouldn't have made Curtis Painter acceptable.


Very true, but the occasional game action for Painter would have made it clear that he wasn't the answer. Once this was determined the Colts could have been working on something for the future; simply handing Painter the ball because he was the next man in line didn't work out very well.
   413. hokieneer Posted: October 01, 2012 at 03:53 PM (#4250195)
On fake field goals and punts - there is some game theory operating here. Coaches should probably be way more aggressive on fakes, non-mandatory onside kicks, and 4th downs... but they are worried about making a bad call that costs them their job.


I caught the end of the Panthers / Falcons game. I couldn't understand why the Panthers did not go for it on 4th and 1 with ~1 minute remaining. Carolina had already put up nearly 200 yards on the ground at a 5.7 yard per clip. Just don't give the ball back to the Falcons at home, no matter the field position (and that was part of it too, I was assuming they would not execute a perfect punt), when all they needed was a FG.
   414. JJ1986 Posted: October 01, 2012 at 03:56 PM (#4250200)
I think fake FGs where the ball is snapped to the kicker probably have a slightly better chance of success. If they're snapped to the holder, the defense is already going right for him. Having it in someone else's hand should give the offense a split-second extra.
   415. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 01, 2012 at 03:58 PM (#4250205)
another decision my mccarthy that pleased me was throwing for it on 3rd and short at the end of the game against the saints. the packers are not a power running team but sometimes mike likes play they are and does silly things like ask his offensive line to get a push when that is not a core competency. he threw and not only got a completed pass but a defensive penalty. good work mike

   416. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: October 01, 2012 at 04:05 PM (#4250217)
The Cardinals are winning in ways that give Football Outsiders' DVOA formula fits, but it's a hell of a ride.
   417. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 01, 2012 at 04:06 PM (#4250219)
Another issue: This didn't happen this week, but I remember it happened last week, and it happens approximately a million times a season. A team trailing in the game late in the fourth quarter is trying to get a stop to get the ball back, and so is making use of its timeouts.

And as the 2-minute warning approaches -- say, it's 2:06 remaining -- the head coach burns one of his timeouts. I literally saw this last week. With 2:06 to go.

Maybe I am simply missing it, but how in the world does this make sense? You will only lose 6 seconds there if you don't take your timeout. But on the other side of the 2-minute warning you can lose 35 seconds or whatever.

How does this make sense?

--------

And on a related issue, why would teams ever use a timeout 95% of the time unless it's late in the 4th quarter? A delay of game is only 5 yards, and it would really seem that in most cases you should just take that rather than burn a timeout.



   418. JJ1986 Posted: October 01, 2012 at 04:12 PM (#4250231)
And as the 2-minute warning approaches -- say, it's 2:06 remaining -- the head coach burns one of his timeouts. I literally saw this last week. With 2:06 to go.


Say this is after a 1st down running play:

Scenario 1: timeout with 2:06, running play, 2-minute warning, running play, timeout. This puts about 1:54 on the clock
Scenario 2: 2-minute warning, running play, timeout, running play, timeout. This puts about 1:48 on the clock.

edit: if you only have one timeout:

Scenario 1: timeout with 2:06, running play, 2-minute warning, running play. This puts about 1:14 on the clock
Scenario 2: 2-minute warning, running play, timeout, running play. This puts about 1:08 on the clock.
   419. Gary Truth Serum Posted: October 01, 2012 at 04:17 PM (#4250236)
Say this is after a 1st down running play:

Scenario 1: timeout with 2:06, running play, 2-minute warning, running play, timeout. This puts about 1:54 on the clock
Scenario 2: 2-minute warning, running play, timeout, running play, timeout. This puts about 1:48 on the clock.

edit: if you only have one timeout:

Scenario 1: timeout with 2:06, running play, 2-minute warning, running play. This puts about 1:14 on the clock
Scenario 2: 2-minute warning, running play, timeout, running play. This puts about 1:08 on the clock.

Yeah, if the opponent runs the ball it's only a difference of six seconds. But the bigger difference (to me) in the first scenario the opponent is no longer required to run the ball. The other team has already used its timeout and the two minute warning will stop the clock (assuming the play runs six seconds) regardless of what play you choose.

So if you call a timeout before 2:00 the other team has all the options in its playbook again without having to worry about clock management. I'd wait until 2:00 and force the run.
   420. SoSH U at work Posted: October 01, 2012 at 04:22 PM (#4250241)
Another issue: This didn't happen this week, but I remember it happened last week, and it happens approximately a million times a season. A team trailing in the game late in the fourth quarter is trying to get a stop to get the ball back, and so is making use of its timeouts.

And as the 2-minute warning approaches -- say, it's 2:06 remaining -- the head coach burns one of his timeouts. I literally saw this last week. With 2:06 to go.

Maybe I am simply missing it, but how in the world does this make sense? You will only lose 6 seconds there if you don't take your timeout. But on the other side of the 2-minute warning you can lose 35 seconds or whatever.

How does this make sense?

--------
Interestingly, if saving time was of the greatest importance, then the Saints could have gotten more mileage from theirs in the Packer game. NO called its final timeout with about 2:44 left in the game after a first-down Packers run. The Packers then ran a play and the play clock didn't start soon enough where the Packers would have to run a play before the 2-minute warning.

If the Saints didn't call their final TO after the first-down play, then the Pack would have had to run its second-down play with about 2:04 left, followed by the two-minute warning. Then, the Saints would have had their final TO to use after the third-down play, which, assuming they stopped the Pack, would have given them about 35 extra seconds to work with.

However, in this case, since NO just needed a field goal, saving time wasn't that crucial. And following the above template does open up the playbook options for the Packers, since the clock is going to stop after second down regardless what play is run.

I think it's a good strategy if you need a TD to win (or you're playing a team that isn't really a good throwing team). But not in the situation the Saints were in.

   421. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: October 01, 2012 at 04:23 PM (#4250243)
   422. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: October 01, 2012 at 04:40 PM (#4250260)
Once this was determined the Colts could have been working on something for the future;


I thought that sucking and getting the #1 draft pick in a QB-rich year was their plan for the future.
   423. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: October 01, 2012 at 10:31 PM (#4250583)
I love the volatility of Romo and Cutler. Two awesome freaky fumbles back to back.
   424. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: October 02, 2012 at 12:01 AM (#4250628)
Pretty one sided there. Dez bryant left a lot of yards on the field
   425. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: October 02, 2012 at 01:06 PM (#4251090)
I don't regularly watch the Cowboys; is Bryant always that bad?

Man oh man did he drop some. Still, it was a great game to watch as a Bears fan. Offense started slow, but came out in the second half just blazing.
   426. steagles Posted: October 02, 2012 at 06:02 PM (#4251568)
the defense is playing well, so i'm not gonna get on the eagles too much for this, but they just cut brian rolle from the team. rolle was their best linebacker last year as a rookie, and came into camp as their starting weakside linebacker. he was benched before week 4 of the preseason, and started the year as a special teamer. he didn't really play on defense in week 1 or week 2, but in the week 3 loss to arizona, he got some run after akeem jordan (who replaced him in the preseason) was taken off the field for a strained hamstring, but he didn't really do much of anything. and then, this past week, he was again replaced in the base formation, but this time by jamar chaney.


so, right now, the eagles have 2 standout LBs -- demeco ryans and mychal kendricks -- and then 3 more who have gotten on the field -- akeem jordan, jamar chaney, and brian rolle. but there's a 6th LB on their roster, who goes by the name casey matthews, and as far as i can tell, since he was removed from the starting lineup last year (after being absolutely horrendous), has really not been seen.


i know why rolle was released -- because the coverage on special teams this season has been horrendous -- but what i don't get, is why he was released instead of casey matthews, who has done nothing.



also, take a look at the eagles 2011 draft class:
1 - danny watkins -- 27 year old 2nd year lineman, who's pretty terrible
2 - jaiquawn jarrett -- cut
3 - curtis marsh -- who?
4 - casey matthews -- also, pretty terrible
4 - alex henery -- he's been pretty good on FGs, but his lack of leg strength has hurt the team on kickoffs
5 - dion lewis -- hasn't really done anything
5 - julian vandervelde -- cut out of training camp, but was just signed back to the practice squad after being cut by tampa bay
6 - jason kelce -- he was actually really, really good, but he's done for this year with a torn ACL/MCL, and there's no guarantee he'll be as good as he was prior to the injury
6 - brian rolle -- cut
7 - greg lloyd -- cut last year, signed to practice squad, and traded to IND in training camp this year
7 - stanley havili -- cut, signed to practice squad last year, made the team as a FB this year, and when he got extended run for the first time this past week, he looked pretty decent.

so, they had 5 picks in the first 4 rounds, and the best thing you can say about any of them is that henery is an average kicker.

they had 11 picks overall, and now, 5 of them have been cut -- jarrett, vandervelde, rolle, and lloyd, havili --, 3 more remain on the fringes of the roster -- marsh, lewis, and matthews --, and then the other 3 are starters, but 1 of them isn't good -- watkins --, 1 of them is injured and out for the season -- kelce --, and 1 is a kicker, who's really only kind of average.

it's really kind of hard to see how they could have done a worse job.
   427. steagles Posted: October 04, 2012 at 04:40 AM (#4253502)
who are the 3 QBs of the only 3 undefeated teams in the NFL?
kevin kolb
matt ryan
matt schaub


and what do they all have in common?

they all either backed up (schaub), were replaced by (kolb), or replaced (ryan) michael vick. 2 thoughts on that:

1, vick must be one hell of a teammate to have that kind of residual effect on all these guys. and
2, i can't wait for the nick foles era.
   428. JJ1986 Posted: October 04, 2012 at 09:23 AM (#4253589)
they all either backed up (schaub), were replaced by (kolb), or replaced (ryan) michael vick. 2 thoughts on that:


While poor Vince Young was cut by Buffalo and is now broke.
   429. JJ1986 Posted: October 04, 2012 at 09:53 PM (#4254716)
Greg Zuerlein is incredible.
   430. steagles Posted: October 07, 2012 at 11:54 PM (#4258827)
i don't know if anyone is watching the sunday night football game, but those last two minutes were called as awful as any game the with the replacements were.

1st and 10, sack, offensive holding
2nd and 17, 25 yard catch, offensive pass interference
2nd and 27, 22 yard catch, offensive holding
2nd and 37, incomplete pass, illegal hands the face, 5 yard penalty, automatic first down.


also, collinsworth made a hell of a call in the last minute of the game. jared gaither was kind of lame, and he got beat badly by the defensive end on an incomplete pass. collinsworth saw it, and said that SD needed to give him help if they didn't want to lose the game. about 10 seconds after colloinsworth said that, in real time, gaither gave up a sack/fumble/recovery that ended the game.
   431. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: October 08, 2012 at 12:35 AM (#4258881)
Haven't seen the play in question, but usually on fake FGs, it isn't the kicker who makes the throw, but the holder, who also typically happens to be the backup QB.


I don't recall seeing it in the nfl lately, but I particularly enjoy it when a fake fg is called and the play is for the kicker and holder to run the option. Shockingly, it sometimes works. That should result in an automatic forfeit, to let a holder get to the edge like that.
   432. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: October 08, 2012 at 01:11 AM (#4258911)
The Niners just became the first team in NFL history to have 300 yards rushing and 300 yards passing in the same game. Alex Smith has really played extremely well this season and there's just an explosiveness to this offense that has been apparent at any time during his time with the Niners. And as well as he has played, I can't help but be impressed with how athletic Kaepernick, the backup QB, has looked while playing.

The Bills defense is a joke. I can't believe how bad they look considering how much money they spent to improve the defense this offseason.
   433. Jim Wisinski Posted: October 08, 2012 at 01:28 AM (#4258919)
The Bills defense is a joke. I can't believe how bad they look considering how much money they spent to improve the defense this offseason.


As a Mets fan this year you should be well accustomed to a team spending lots of money on a unit and having it be horrible.
   434. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: October 08, 2012 at 01:37 AM (#4258921)
As a Mets fan this year you should be well accustomed to a team spending lots of money on a unit and having it be horrible.

It is true that the Mets have made me accustomed to the concept but this year's version didn't make a ton of money. The Mets spent less than the Minnesota Twins this year and were actually 14th in payroll this year. Your point is well made though.
   435. McCoy Posted: October 08, 2012 at 09:40 AM (#4258973)
The Bears have racked up some wins recently but is anyone else thinking they aren't as good as all those points would lead one to believe?

Marshall is looking great but the offense still sucks and so does the line. The defense is looking and have gotten lucky with some fluky interceptions recently.

The Bears have a favorable schedule the next month or so before playing what looks to be at least 7 really tough teams in a row. I wouldn't be shocked to see the Bears go something like 7-1 or 6-2 and then go 3-5 or 2-6 to close out the year.
   436. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: October 08, 2012 at 10:17 AM (#4258994)
I agree, McCoy. You see the score of 41-3 and think "WOW" but then they only scored, what, 3 points in the first half?

I think good teams are going to give the Bears fits. Cutler is still making mechanical mistakes out there, and the OL still seems unable to block a determined mouse.
   437. McCoy Posted: October 08, 2012 at 10:37 AM (#4259008)
Speed of playcalling has to get much much better. The Bears are burning through timeouts and yardage because they can't get the play in on time. Eventually that is going to cost them especially with Smith as the coach as he is one of the worst time management coaches I have ever seen.
   438. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 08, 2012 at 11:13 AM (#4259038)
The hype over this Drew Brees record was beyond silly.
   439. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 08, 2012 at 11:17 AM (#4259042)
The hype over this Drew Brees record was beyond silly.


Give Joe Montana and Bill Walsh in-helmet radio and the expanded playbook that allows, and put them in the modern no-touch passers or receivers NFL and Brees would be an also-ran.
   440. DA Baracus Posted: October 08, 2012 at 11:22 AM (#4259048)
Give Joe Montana and Bill Walsh in-helmet radio and the expanded playbook that allows, and put them in the modern no-touch passers or receivers NFL and Brees would be an also-ran.


Even better, give Unitas those and he'd tell you to go #### yourself.
   441. thok Posted: October 08, 2012 at 11:33 AM (#4259063)
I think good teams are going to give the Bears fits. Cutler is still making mechanical mistakes out there, and the OL still seems unable to block a determined mouse.


The Bears have a lot of value in defense and special teams, just like they've had the last 6 or so years. They aren't a lock to make the playoffs, but that has more to do with the the fact that nobody in the NFC other than Atlanta is a lock to make the playoffs right now.
   442. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: October 08, 2012 at 12:37 PM (#4259153)
Speed of playcalling has to get much much better. The Bears are burning through timeouts and yardage because they can't get the play in on time. Eventually that is going to cost them especially with Smith as the coach as he is one of the worst time management coaches I have ever seen.

Well, Andy Reid says hello, but in principle, yeah I agree. Nothing bugs me more than seeing a time out called just because there's confusion about the play or the play can't get in on time.
   443. steagles Posted: October 10, 2012 at 05:22 AM (#4261447)
some fun from football outsiders:

the eagles are 30th in the NFL in turnovers per possession, and 29th in the NFL in starting field position.

in contrast to that, the eagles' defense is 20th in turnovers per possession and 30th in opponents' starting field position.


and in addition to the above, they rank 29th in special teams.


basically, when it comes to hidden yardage, the eagles are the absolute worst team in the NFL.
   444. steagles Posted: October 10, 2012 at 05:55 AM (#4261450)
also, i think we're past the point where michael vick has any right to be the starting quarterback. i'm not saying that he should be removed immediately, but the eagles are 4 points away from being 0-5, and while vick deserves credit for pulling those wins out, he also deserves a lot of blame for those games being as close as they were. at this point, his running ability is not a huge asset because, quite honestly, the gap in athleticism between him and opposing defenders is now non-existent (at best) or at a deficit (at worst). when you add the turnovers to that, when you add the mediocre passing, we're just past the point where vick has any inherent right to be the starting quarterback.

   445. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: October 11, 2012 at 07:15 PM (#4264751)
The 49ers are averaging 6.1 YPC through their first five games. The only team that has ever done that is the 2006 Falcons, and they had a Mike Vick. (I got that Bill Banwell from Grantland.)

Alex Smhith is leading the NFL in QB rating and ESPN qb rating statistic. (Imperfect measures, sure, but you can say that a guy doing that is doing more than just "a game manager".)

The Niners are leading the league in points allowed per game. They are second in Yards allowed.

The Niners went 13-3 last season but they weren't a dominant team. This year they might not win as many games but I truly think this team is as good as anybody. Alex Smith, with the same offensive system for two consecutive seasons for the first time in his career, and the most talent at receiver he's ever had is playing great football. The additions of Manningham and Moss, and the progression of Crabtree, has kept defenses honest and that has made the running game way more efficient.
   446. Tripon Posted: October 14, 2012 at 10:15 PM (#4270422)
The Redskins might not be a good team, but damn, do I love me some RGIII.
   447. steagles Posted: October 15, 2012 at 11:44 AM (#4270902)
this has been a pretty awful season so far. the eagles are 4 points away from being 0-6, and 5 points away from being 5-1, which, i guess, is another way of saying that they're right where they should be.

but really, this season has been terrible. between the turnovers, the awful special teams, and the lack of explosivity from the offense, watching these games has been a complete slog. and while the defense has played extremely well, there's been a lack of explosivity from them, as well. no sacks, no fumbles, very few interceptions (they had 4 in the season opener against brandon weeden, but in the 5 games since then, they've had only 3).


people who aren't baseball fans would probably say that watching games the eagles play this season is very much like watching a mediocre baseball game, where nothing really happens. and you kinda think to yourself, "how did they score so many runs/points?"
   448. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 15, 2012 at 12:09 PM (#4270925)
The Redskins might not be a good team, but damn, do I love me some RGIII


Kordell Stewart, Part 6.
   449. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 15, 2012 at 12:13 PM (#4270928)
The Falcons are the least impressive 6-0 ever.
   450. Joey B. "disrespects the A" Posted: October 15, 2012 at 12:35 PM (#4270967)
Serves the Eagles right for going all in with that ridiculously overrated, no defense reading, goal line fumbling, interception throwing, dog electrocuting, sociopathic piece of garbage. I love seeing it blow up right in their faces, just like I knew it would.
   451. JJ1986 Posted: October 15, 2012 at 12:48 PM (#4270988)
Kordell Stewart, Part 6.


Part 2 - Aaron Brooks
Part 3 - Michael Vick
Part 4 - Vince Young
Part 5 - Cam Newton
   452. DA Baracus Posted: October 15, 2012 at 12:56 PM (#4270995)
Serves the Eagles right for going all in with that ridiculously overrated, no defense reading, goal line fumbling, interception throwing, dog electrocuting, sociopathic piece of garbage. I love seeing it blow up right in their faces, just like I knew it would.


How do you feel about the Steelers?
   453. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 15, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4271024)
Part 2 - Aaron Brooks
Part 3 - Michael Vick
Part 4 - Vince Young
Part 5 - Cam Newton


Seems like we should have a 5.5 in there for His Lordship The Tebow
   454. AROM Posted: October 15, 2012 at 01:22 PM (#4271035)
Kordell Stewart, Part 6.


Part 2 - Aaron Brooks
Part 3 - Michael Vick
Part 4 - Vince Young
Part 5 - Cam Newton


Kordell was just Randall Cunningham part 2.
   455. AROM Posted: October 15, 2012 at 01:24 PM (#4271039)
RGIII has more throwing talent than the others on the list. He's running the ball with great success because he can, but if he keeps doing that sooner or later he's going to get hit so bad that he won't be able to do anything.

If he scales back the running to where it's a change-up in his game, like Aaron Rodgers, he should be great for a long time.
   456. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 15, 2012 at 01:42 PM (#4271080)
Kordell was just Randall Cunningham part 2.


Disconcur. Randall Cunningham had more talent than those guys. Cunningham is more of a Steve Young/Aaron Rodgers type; a real QB who can run, not a scatback who gets the ball snapped his way.
   457. JJ1986 Posted: October 15, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4271106)
I would only jokingly compare Griffin to those other guys. I think he's more comparable to Alex Smith (now that he's good).
   458. JJ1986 Posted: October 16, 2012 at 09:54 AM (#4272280)
Juan Castillo fired. I thought the Eagles defense had been doing a fine job, especially considering the spots Vick has put them in.
   459. steagles Posted: October 16, 2012 at 10:42 AM (#4272315)
Juan Castillo fired. I thought the Eagles defense had been doing a fine job, especially considering the spots Vick has put them in.
yeah, i am not a fan of this move. a lot of people were calling for castillo's head this offseason, but at this point, if you're looking for a coach to fire, i'd point my finger at any of these guys before castillo:

defensive line coach jim washburn - if you've watched this team play so far this season and somehow come to the conclusion that it's the defense that's the problem, then i think you should get to the root of that problem, and that has been the lack of sacks by the defensive line. jason babin, trent cole, and cullen jenkins each make about 10 mil per year, and they've given you nothing. fletcher cox and brandon graham were first round picks -- not just first round picks, but guys that you traded up to get -- and they've given you nothing. the team as a whole has 7 sacks, which ranks 30th in the NFL. if you want to say that the defense was the problem the last two weeks, well, if they had gotten 1 sack each week, at the right time, the eagles are 5-1.

offensive line coach howard mudd - losing your two best offensive linemen is a definite crutch, but still, the offensive line has been terrible. coming into this week, the eagles ranked 30th in stuffed percentage on football outsiders, and that only got worse this week, when the lions had 7 tackles behind the line of scrimmage. when you add the problems they have with pass protection, well, if #### rolls downhill, mudd should be swimming in it by the end of the day.

special teams coach bobby april - again, if you look at football outsiders, the eagles have gotten negative value in kickoff and punt coverage, and kickoff and punt returns. across the board, they've been awful.


interestingly, what those three have in common that juan castillo does not, is that their hires were universally praised, while his was universally mocked.


anyway, unless the entire defense was calling for this move, it seems to me that it has massive backfire potential. in addition to him getting the ax, while more deserving coaches did not, it's also a signal to the team -- players, coaches, assistants -- that they're on their own, that the wheels are coming off the bus and they should be seeking a soft landing spot.
   460. Joey B. "disrespects the A" Posted: October 16, 2012 at 11:16 AM (#4272346)
How do you feel about the Steelers?

I don't really care about the Steelers. And frankly, I'm not even sure what the point of the question is supposed to be.
   461. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 16, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4272352)
joey

i think the suggestion behind the question is that if you find michael vick abhorrent what about the quarterback in pittsburgh who has the nickname of 'rapistberger' among female nfl fans?
   462. Dan The Mediocre Posted: October 16, 2012 at 11:39 AM (#4272368)
interestingly, what those three have in common that juan castillo does not, is that their hires were universally praised, while his was universally mocked.


Exactly. Castillo's hiring basically meant he'd be the first to go if only because a lot of people assumed he'd be the problem. He is being punished to placate fans, not to actually fix anything.
   463. Joey B. "disrespects the A" Posted: October 16, 2012 at 12:06 PM (#4272385)
i think the suggestion behind the question is that if you find michael vick abhorrent what about the quarterback in pittsburgh who has the nickname of 'rapistberger' among female nfl fans?

I do think "Big Ben" is kind of an idiot, but here's the funny thing though: he has never even been formally charged with a serious crime, much less been indicted by a grand jury, much less been convicted.

I know that for some people, the mere accusation of rape or sexual assualt is enough to confer automatic guilt. I'm not one of those people.
   464. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: October 16, 2012 at 01:40 PM (#4272487)
Phillip Rivers looks like the 2nd coming of Jeff George.
   465. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: October 16, 2012 at 01:55 PM (#4272508)
Wow, mentions of Jeff George and Randall Cunningham...remember when almost anybody could succeed as a Vikings QB?
   466. Dan The Mediocre Posted: October 16, 2012 at 02:10 PM (#4272532)
Wow, mentions of Jeff George and Randall Cunningham...remember when almost anybody could succeed as a Vikings QB?


It's easy to succeed when you throw to Randy Moss and Chris Carter and have Robert Smith as your running back.
   467. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 16, 2012 at 02:15 PM (#4272541)
It's easy to succeed when you throw to Randy Moss and Chris Carter and have Robert Smith as your running back.


Lovecats!

I do think "Big Ben" is kind of an idiot, but here's the funny thing though: he has never even been formally charged with a serious crime, much less been indicted by a grand jury, much less been convicted.


Being rich and famous means it's never "really" rape.
   468. Gaelan Posted: October 16, 2012 at 03:30 PM (#4272655)
From a distance, if you think Michael Vick is a worse human being than Ben Roethlisberger, then you are probably a terrible human being.
   469. DA Baracus Posted: October 16, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4272679)
I know that for some people, the mere accusation of rape or sexual assualt is enough to confer automatic guilt. I'm not one of those people.


Multiple accusations. Where there's smoke there's fire.

Juan Castillo fired. I thought the Eagles defense had been doing a fine job, especially considering the spots Vick has put them in.


Only if you look at some of the stats. Your defense will look better when teams keep in a sixth blocker at an abnormally high rate, which happened for most of the season. Castillo is a horrible play caller, can not make in game adjustments that improve the team, has blown too many fourth quarter leads and is not respected by his players. And for all the money and focus the defensive line has been given, they had no sacks in the last three games. The offensive line (due to injuries) and Vick (in part due to the offensive line) are bigger problems this year, but the defensive coaching was the easiest to fix because by almost by default Todd Bowles is better.
   470. Tripon Posted: October 16, 2012 at 07:43 PM (#4272968)
The detail about the bodyguards holding back the girl's friends from stopping the 'alleged act' (and I'm being extremely generous here phrasing it as such) while Ben Roethlisberger took her for a bathroom break. That's just creepy.
   471. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 16, 2012 at 08:33 PM (#4273016)
The detail about the bodyguards holding back the girl's friends from stopping the 'alleged act' (and I'm being extremely generous here phrasing it as such) while Ben Roethlisberger took her for a bathroom break. That's just creepy.


Ben Roethlisberger is a rapist as certainly as O.J. Simpson is a murderer. Actually, a double-rapist and a double-murderer.
   472. steagles Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:43 PM (#4274376)
so, in honor of the apparent benching of 2011 first round pick danny watkins, let's take another look at the 2011 phildalphia eagles draft class:

1st: Danny Watkins (OG) Baylor
2nd: Jaiquawn Jarrett (S) Temple
3rd: Curtis Marsh (CB) Utah St
4th: Casey Matthews (ILB) Oregon
4th: Alex Henery (K) Nebraska
5th: Dion Lewis (RB) Pittsburgh
5th: Julian Vandervelde (OG) Iowa
6th: Jason Kelce (C) Cincy
6th: Brian Rolle (OLB) Ohio St
7th: Greg Lloyd (ILB) UConn
7th: Stanley Havili (FB) USC


cut: havili, lloyd, rolle, vandervelde, jarret
benched: watkins, marsh, matthews, lewis
injured: kelce


so, basically, as it stands right now, the eagles had 11 picks, and the only player of consequence that they currently have to show for it is a kicker.



actually, looking back through the andy reid drafts, i have to say, they have not been very good st drafting. they've had flashes. in 2002, they drafted 4 probowlers in lee toe, michael lewis, sheldon brown, and brian westbrook. and then in 2005, they drafted todd herremens and trent cole in the 4th and 5th rounds. in 2007 they drafted brent celek in the 5th round. in 2008 and 2009, they drafted desean jackson and lesean mccoy with 2nd round picks.

now, maybe that's actually better than average, but it really feels like they've done a terrible job in the draft
   473. DA Baracus Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4274392)
Although he certainly deserves it, Danny Watkins hasn't been benched. Yet.
   474. ASmitty Posted: October 17, 2012 at 04:05 PM (#4274409)
Multiple accusations. Where there's smoke there's fire.


I have a friend who works as an NFL PR person. When the FIRST allegation against Roethlisberger came out, that person texted me something to the effect of "The first of many."

I think his creepiness and borderline behavior with intoxicated young women was pretty well known in NFL circles.
   475. steagles Posted: October 21, 2012 at 03:01 PM (#4278084)
Bruce Arthur @bruce_arthur about 30 minutes ago
John Lynch, doing colour on New Orleans game: "They feel like they've pardon the pun, weathered the storm." Sigh.


   476. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 21, 2012 at 03:59 PM (#4278135)
That was a hell of a pass by RGIII.
   477. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 21, 2012 at 03:59 PM (#4278137)
And that was truly terrible coverage by DC's secondary.
   478. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 21, 2012 at 04:07 PM (#4278142)
That was just one hell of a game. Gotta feel bad for Santana Moss.
   479. BDC Posted: October 21, 2012 at 04:23 PM (#4278147)
Didn't get to see Giants-Redskins here in DFW: we were watching the Cowboys tiptoe past Washington in the standings with an unresounding 19-14 win over Carolina. But hey, we'll take that. Defense played well. A certain number of field goals were kicked.
   480. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 21, 2012 at 04:25 PM (#4278150)
How do you press cover Victor Cruz on that last drive? The man has one skill. He runs fast down the seam. It's just unthinkable to press him and let him loose down the gap like that.
   481. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 21, 2012 at 04:28 PM (#4278153)
Crap ending to the Bucs-Saints game.
   482. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: October 21, 2012 at 04:29 PM (#4278155)
Roethlisberger was well known as a lecher and a creep around Pittsburgh pretty much from the day he arrived there. No one who had ever happened across his nightlife path was even slightly surprised when the allegations started coming.
   483. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 21, 2012 at 04:30 PM (#4278156)
Crap ending to the Bucs-Saints game.

That was kind of a bummer, especially after the TV crew seemed to indicate that the receiver was pushed out of bounds and was therefore eligible to make the catch. Not that either of those two teams are going anywhere.
   484. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 21, 2012 at 05:50 PM (#4278183)
That was kind of a bummer, especially after the TV crew seemed to indicate that the receiver was pushed out of bounds and was therefore eligible to make the catch. Not that either of those two teams are going anywhere.


Agreed, but the rule there is just stupid. If the player is forced out of bounds he should always be able to reestablsh himself and catch the ball.
   485. steagles Posted: October 21, 2012 at 06:15 PM (#4278202)
That was just one hell of a game. Gotta feel bad for Santana Moss.
they ran the same play 3 times in a row. he fumbled the first one, dropped the second, and fumbled the third.

maybe i'm just kind of callous, but that's not the kind of thing that'll make me feel bad for someone.
   486. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: October 22, 2012 at 10:03 PM (#4279837)
Vicious but legal hit by suh
   487. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: October 23, 2012 at 12:14 AM (#4280312)
wow, he was folded like a chair.
   488. McCoy Posted: October 23, 2012 at 12:25 AM (#4280321)
There is no way Cutler lasts a full season and I'm thinking the most likely finish for the Bears is somewhere around 8 to 9 wins.
   489. Every Inge Counts Posted: October 23, 2012 at 12:51 AM (#4280340)
The Detroit Lions make me sad. That is the 3rd game they have blown on simple mistakes...
   490. stanmvp48 Posted: October 23, 2012 at 08:48 AM (#4280395)
With respect to the Tampa NO game, what is the rule? I have heard it both ways. And if a "pushed out" receiver becomes ineligible, why doesn't the defense always do that?
   491. Eddo Posted: October 23, 2012 at 09:58 AM (#4280429)
With respect to the Tampa NO game, what is the rule? I have heard it both ways. And if a "pushed out" receiver becomes ineligible, why doesn't the defense always do that?

Because:
1) It's easier said than done.
2) If you do it past the five-yard mark, and the QB is in the pocket, it's illegal contact
3) If you do it while the ball is in the air, it's defensive pass interference

And the rule itself is that unless some sort of foul (illegal contact, DPI, illegal hands to the face, etc.) is what pushes the receiver out of bounds, he absolutely cannot be the first to touch the ball.

------

There is no way Cutler lasts a full season and I'm thinking the most likely finish for the Bears is somewhere around 8 to 9 wins.

Really? Cutler hasn't played all that well, and the Bears are 5-1. Even if he plays no more games, you really think they'll go 3-7 or 4-6 the rest of the way? When two of those games are against Carolina and Tennessee?
   492. McCoy Posted: October 23, 2012 at 10:16 AM (#4280443)
The Bears second half schedule is very tough and if he plays no more games I doubt they even get to 8 or 9 wins.

In the second half they play Minnesota twice, Houston, San Fran, Detroit again, Green Bay, Arizona and Seattle. Even with Cutler there is probably 3 to 4 losses somewhere in the next 10 games. If he goes down at some point it will be more losses.
   493. Kurt Posted: October 23, 2012 at 10:23 AM (#4280453)
Even with Cutler there is probably 3 to 4 losses somewhere in the next 10 games. If he goes down at some point it will be more losses.

I'm with Eddo on the Bears' outlook. 3 or 4 losses the rest of the way leaves them at 12-4 or 11-5. If he went down for the season tomorrow they'd probably end up at 7-9 or 8-8, but if the O/U on games played by Cutler the rest of the year is zero, I'll take the over.
   494. hokieneer Posted: October 23, 2012 at 10:54 AM (#4280488)
Didn't cutler miss a large portion of the 2nd half last year and they lost something like 5 of 6? Well I guess Forte was out as well, so not an apples to apples.
   495. Chicago Joe Posted: October 23, 2012 at 11:03 AM (#4280504)
Didn't cutler miss a large portion of the 2nd half last year and they lost something like 5 of 6? Well I guess Forte was out as well, so not an apples to apples.


The Bears at least have a plausible back-up plan for Forte. They don't for Cutler.
   496. hokieneer Posted: October 23, 2012 at 11:07 AM (#4280512)
The Bears at least have a plausible back-up plan for Forte. They don't for Cutler.


At least Jason Campbell is a better option than Caleb Hanie/ Josh McCown.
   497. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 23, 2012 at 11:40 AM (#4280535)
How many backups are better than Jason Campbell? Four? One?
   498. JJ1986 Posted: October 23, 2012 at 11:47 AM (#4280552)
How many backups are better than Jason Campbell? Four? One?


I'd rather have Orton, Flynn, and probably Nick Foles. And maybe Tebow.
   499. Eddo Posted: October 23, 2012 at 11:47 AM (#4280553)
Jason Campbell >>>>>>>>> Caleb Hanie

Also keep in mind McCoy is generally very, very pessimistic regarding the Bears. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but it drives his predictions.
   500. Eddo Posted: October 23, 2012 at 11:56 AM (#4280561)
In the second half they play Minnesota twice, Houston, San Fran, Detroit again, Green Bay, Arizona and Seattle. Even with Cutler there is probably 3 to 4 losses somewhere in the next 10 games. If he goes down at some point it will be more losses.

San Francisco is almost certainly a loss without Cutler, and likely a loss without him. That's one. Green Bay's a loss for sure with Cutler, since he always shits the bed against the Packers, and almost certainly a loss with Campbell (though probably less likely).

Playing Seattle at home is much different than playing them in Seattle. I'd put that a likely win no matter who the Bears' quarterback is, but it's definitely not a gimme.

Detroit in Detroit will certainly be a tough game.

Arizona could have totally imploded by the second-to-last week of the year, but the game's in Arizona, so again, not a gimme.

Houston I'll give you as a loss, though I can easily see the Bears shutting down their run game, and Schaub doesn't particularly scare me.

The most likely outcome with Minnesota is a split, though I don't really think they're that good. The beat the 49ers, which is impressive, but they lost to the Colts and struggle with the Jaguars, both of whom the Bears blew out despite not really playing all that well. With Cutler, I would be disappointed if the Bears didn't sweep the Vikings. Without him, I think a split is still the most likely outcome.

And like it or not, the Bears have been one of the four or five best teams in the league so far, regardless of the level of competition. Football Outsiders has their defense through week seven as the best since 2002, fifth-best since 1991, and that takes adjust for the opponents faced. Finishing 8-8 would be a huge collapse at this point.
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