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Tuesday, March 19, 2013

OT: March Madness Thread—

For some reason the OT: College Basketball Thread has been closed, just in time for March Madness.  So let’s use this thread for all of our NCAA Tournament discussion (and NIT, CBI, et al).

The title link goes to Ken Pomeroy’s 2013 NCAA tournament log5 predictions for each round of the tournament.

VoodooR Posted: March 19, 2013 at 11:04 AM | 641 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, off-topic

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   301. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: March 24, 2013 at 11:46 PM (#4395596)
Maravich? (I-A?)
   302. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: March 24, 2013 at 11:48 PM (#4395599)
I know Pistol Pete was over 40 ppg for his career, so I'm gonna guess him. LSU has had its share of gunners.

one year after him--Pete averaged >40 for 3 straight years

EDIT: he is obscure --played for the Memphis Tams of the ABA
   303. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: March 24, 2013 at 11:49 PM (#4395600)
wait, no, Hersey Hawkins? Or that dude from US International?
   304. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: March 24, 2013 at 11:50 PM (#4395602)
one year after Pete? so not Hawkins or unnamed US Int'l dude. ...WTF (checks). never in 100 years would I thought of that guy.
   305. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: March 24, 2013 at 11:52 PM (#4395603)
Ole Miss
   306. steagles Posted: March 24, 2013 at 11:58 PM (#4395607)
LaSalle is one game from the Elite 8. Basketball is a funny game.
i think things are actually lined up pretty well for them to get to the final 4. about as well as possible, anyway.

with the 3 guards that they put on the floor (galloway, duren and garland) i think anyone they match up against is gonna have a hell of a time trying to stop them if the score is close late in the 2nd half. they sink FTs and they hit 3s and they get into the paint at will, and those attributes are key to pulling out wins in the NCAA tournament.


at some point the fact that they only have one player in the rotation who's taller than 6'5 will catch up with them, but at least that one guy is playing really well, so it's not unpossible that they can dodge that bullet for another round or 2.
   307. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: March 25, 2013 at 12:14 AM (#4395612)
one year after Pete? so not Hawkins or unnamed US Int'l dude. ...WTF (checks). never in 100 years would I thought of that guy.


Not only would I have never have thought of that guy, I don't think I've ever heard of him. Check out his Wikipedia page, though--what a crazy career. Anybody know the story behind his successful invocation of the hardship clause to jump to the pros? I wonder if he's still coaching the Romanian national team.
   308. SoSH U at work Posted: March 25, 2013 at 12:29 AM (#4395617)


Not only would I have never have thought of that guy, I don't think I've ever heard of him. Check out his Wikipedia page, though--what a crazy career. Anybody know the story behind his successful invocation of the hardship clause to jump to the pros? I wonder if he's still coaching the Romanian national team.


No. In 2012, during his first visit to Oxford since his college days, he claimed the Romanian team still owed him in back salary.

Fascinating bit on that hardship clause. He left to sign with the ABA with two games left during his 40 PPG sophomore season at Ole Miss.

(FWIW, I hadn't heard of this guy either before this thread).

   309. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 25, 2013 at 12:42 AM (#4395619)
Ugh. I've heard of this guy but the name is eluding me. Neumann? Whomever it is, I had no idea he was that prolific in college.
   310. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 25, 2013 at 12:45 AM (#4395620)
I remember the us intl dude pretty well, Kevin Bradshaw. He was, like 26, and a vet during his college heyday.
   311. Howie Menckel Posted: March 25, 2013 at 07:57 AM (#4395646)
I still have this card of the 40-pt guy

http://www.tradingcarddb.com/ViewCard.cfm/sid/2021/cid/631311

more fun: ABA Commissioner and then Memphis franchise owner at the time was Mike Storen - father of TV personality Hannah Storm and first cousin, twice removed, of Nationals pitcher Drew Storen.
   312. just plain joe Posted: March 25, 2013 at 08:36 AM (#4395658)
Ugh. I've heard of this guy but the name is eluding me. Neumann? Whomever it is, I had no idea he was that prolific in college.


Johnny Neumann is correct; IIRC he was essentially kicked off the Ole Miss team for "violating team rules". Unless I'm mistaken "hardship" was pretty much granted to any player who asked for it. In any case I don't think the ABA had many scruples about signing players who technically may have had remaining eligibility.
   313. hokieneer Posted: March 25, 2013 at 09:50 AM (#4395701)
Anyway Smart or Stephens leave VCU or Butler for UCLA?
   314. bunyon Posted: March 25, 2013 at 10:02 AM (#4395713)
I think Stephens is pretty happy at Butler. He has a long contract and they're moving to the Big East, which, obviously, isn't any longer the BIG EAST. People always like more money and prestige, but of all the mid-major coaches who are hot commodities, I think Stephens is as unlikely to move as anyone. I happen to know he was, just a few years ago, offered a pile of money from an ACC school and stayed put. That job wasn't UCLA but, then, UCLA isn't UCLA anymore, either.

I keep thinking Smart will leave but then it doesn't happen. Jobs at elite programs have a lot of #### associated with them. If you can make 80% of the salary at a mid-major, I'd probably take it.

EDIT: All of that is to say that Stephens is probably the next UCLA coach. My predictive ability has not been so good lately.
   315. steagles Posted: March 25, 2013 at 10:18 AM (#4395727)
I keep thinking Smart will leave but then it doesn't happen. Jobs at elite programs have a lot of #### associated with them. If you can make 80% of the salary at a mid-major, I'd probably take it.
that's my feeling as well..but jim larranaga is a counterpoint to that. he's in his 2nd year at miami with an ACC title and a sweet 16 under his belt, plus a good shot at a final 4 or even a national title. however great he is as a coach, he's not doing that at george mason.

   316. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 25, 2013 at 10:18 AM (#4395729)
As a rookie, Neumann "guarded" the Carolina Cougars' Larry "Who?" Miller the night the latter set the all-time ABA single-game scoring mark of 67, as it happens. (After the season, Carolina let Miller go in the San Diego Conquistadors expansion draft. Memphis kept Neumann for two more years. In related news, Memphis was not very good, whether as the Tams, Pros or Sounds.)
   317. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: March 25, 2013 at 10:19 AM (#4395731)
Rutgers, the flagship state university of one of the most talent rich states in the country, adjacent to several other recruiting hotbeds, has not been to the tournament since 1991. Meanwhile. Florida Gulf Coast and La Salle are in the Sweet 16. Pathetic.

And it's not just a tough conference thing. Wasn't it just last year that USF was a win away from the Sweet 16? USF!
   318. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: March 25, 2013 at 10:23 AM (#4395734)
Also, not to be THAT GUY that talks about his ####### bracket, but I have 11 of the sweet 16, including 7 of 8 on the right side. I usually suck at this, but I had a feeling about Harvard.

That $50 gift card is almost mine!
   319. hokieneer Posted: March 25, 2013 at 10:24 AM (#4395736)
Jim Larranaga stayed at George Mason for 4 more years after their Final 4 run, in which they had 2 more NCAA trips and 3 more 20 win seasons. The timing of his departure, and to a non-basketball power, was always a little bit of a head scratcher.

So naturally Smart will leave for the TCU job in 3 years.
   320. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: March 25, 2013 at 10:31 AM (#4395739)
but I have 11 of the sweet 16, including 7 of 8 on the right side.


Congratulations. You successfully predicted 2 ones, 1 two, 2 threes and 2 fours. I imagine your other 4 are a one, 2 twos, and a three.

   321. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: March 25, 2013 at 10:57 AM (#4395758)
As a rookie, Neumann "guarded" the Carolina Cougars' Larry "Who?" Miller

Miller had been a 2 time ACC player of the year, but was a 6'4" tweener.
   322. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: March 25, 2013 at 11:00 AM (#4395761)
that's my feeling as well..but jim larranaga is a counterpoint to that. he's in his 2nd year at miami with an ACC title and a sweet 16 under his belt, plus a good shot at a final 4 or even a national title. however great he is as a coach, he's not doing that at george mason.


George Mason made the Final Four all the way back in 2006.
   323. JJ1986 Posted: March 25, 2013 at 11:10 AM (#4395765)
I had SD State and Pitt in the Sweet 16. Right about which top seeds would fall, but no points for it.
   324. Delorians Posted: March 25, 2013 at 11:21 AM (#4395775)
I filled out two brackets. For one which gives more points for lower seeded victories (points for round*seed) I picked several upsets. For the other which does not do this I picked mostly chalk. I did not check results all weekend. Checking them today I am surprised to be in first place in both, did not think that would be possible. Going forward, relying heavily on Arizona (final 4) and Florida (final 2) in the former. Picked Louisville to win both.

I should add that each is for a group of 10-15 brackets among friends.
   325. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 25, 2013 at 11:22 AM (#4395777)
Miller had been a 2 time ACC player of the year, but was a 6'4" tweener.


Oh, yeah -- I know he was a good college player, but guys who hold scoring records in professional leagues tend to have much bigger reps. (Julius Erving topped out at, I think, 63 points for the Nets. David Thompson's & George Gervin's big scoring nights came when they were battling for the NBA scoring title, after the ABA's demise. I'm not sure whose record Miller broke -- maybe Zelmo Beaty's? At one point the similarly low-profile Stew Johnson held the top mark, I know. I assume Connie Hawkins was up there somewhere, too, & I know Spencer Haywood was.)

I guess Miller was the ABA's Mark Whiten.
   326. Baldrick Posted: March 25, 2013 at 11:24 AM (#4395780)
Also, not to be THAT GUY that talks about his ####### bracket, but I have 11 of the sweet 16, including 7 of 8 on the right side.

I have 10 of the Sweet 16 and I'm in last place in my group.

I also selected teams pretty much randomly as I know nothing about basketball.
   327. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: March 25, 2013 at 11:38 AM (#4395791)
I think Stephens is pretty happy at Butler. He has a long contract and they're moving to the Big East, which, obviously, isn't any longer the BIG EAST. People always like more money and prestige, but of all the mid-major coaches who are hot commodities, I think Stephens is as unlikely to move as anyone. I happen to know he was, just a few years ago, offered a pile of money from an ACC school and stayed put. That job wasn't UCLA but, then, UCLA isn't UCLA anymore, either.

Illinois gave both Smart and Stephens offers last year and they both turned it down. Actually, Smart was the top target, and they offered him like somewhere between $2.5mil and $3mil a year (he was making $1.2mil at VCU). After he turned them down, rumors are that Stevens asked if Illinois would give him the same offer. I'm not sure what the offer looked like, but he ended up turning them down too. However, from at least the rumors, supposedly Stevens came a lot closer to accepting than Smart.

I think both guys are going to leave, but Illinois wasn't big enough and there were enough other concerns (like the stadium and facilities remodel situation).
   328. Kurt Posted: March 25, 2013 at 11:51 AM (#4395803)
I had SD State and Pitt in the Sweet 16. Right about which top seeds would fall, but no points for it.

I made those same two picks. And Wisconsin in the final four, so I haven't been following it closely.

Odd that with all the upsets, the East region had all top four seeds make it through.
   329. greenback calls it soccer Posted: March 25, 2013 at 12:38 PM (#4395843)
Wow, I saw Johnny Neumann back in the day with the Kentucky Colonels. I want to say he was traded for Travis "Machine Gun" Grant, who scored 4,000 points during his college career, but maybe that was Kevin "Wave Your Hands at the Russian Making the Layup" Joyce.
   330. bunyon Posted: March 25, 2013 at 12:39 PM (#4395844)
I keep thinking Smart will leave but then it doesn't happen. Jobs at elite programs have a lot of #### associated with them. If you can make 80% of the salary at a mid-major, I'd probably take it.

that's my feeling as well..but jim larranaga is a counterpoint to that. he's in his 2nd year at miami with an ACC title and a sweet 16 under his belt, plus a good shot at a final 4 or even a national title. however great he is as a coach, he's not doing that at george mason.


I think someone else made the point but Miami is not an elite basketball program. It was pretty much an afterthought. I like Larranaga and hope Miami makes it through, but they aren't - or, rather, their fans aren't - like Duke or Kentucky or UNC or UCLA. If Larranaga had had his career at Kentucky, they'd have fired him a long time ago. There is just a lot of crap that arises out of the unreasonably high expectations those fan bases have. Hell, as a Duke grad (grad school, not undergrad) I know a lot of fans that are pissed off at how "bad" they are this year and that they didn't win the ACC. You don't have to just win NCAA tourney games, you have to blow teams out. They aren't calling for K's head but if K didn't have four rings and a pile of final four's, they would be. It defies explanation, but there it is. I wouldn't trade being the hero of Butler for that for the minor difference in pay that will be coming with the move.
   331. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 25, 2013 at 12:50 PM (#4395851)
I thought the CW was Stevens was waiting to see if Crean would fail at IU. Now that Crean has IU back to being IU, I wonder if he'll just take the next good offer he gets. I can kinda seem him staying at Butler though like Few has at Gonzaga and building that kind of program.

Smart seems he'd leave pretty soon though.
   332. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 25, 2013 at 12:51 PM (#4395853)
Wow, I saw Johnny Neumann back in the day with the Kentucky Colonels. I want to say he was traded for Travis "Machine Gun" Grant, who scored 4,000 points during his college career, but maybe that was Kevin "Wave Your Hands at the Russian Making the Layup" Joyce.


Dunno. Machine Gun Grant apparently was traded to the Pacers for "future considerations" in 1/76, by which time Neumann & Joyce may have already been Colonels. (Neumann came over from the Squires with Jan Van Breda Kolff after 35 games, with Kentucky sending Marv Roberts to the Virginia trainwreck; Joyce apparently was picked up after the San Diego Sails shut down in 11/75.) Neumann's exit from Kentucky was via the ABA dispersal draft. Joyce's career ended when the ABA did.
   333. Jeff Frances the Mute Posted: March 25, 2013 at 01:04 PM (#4395860)
You don't have to just win NCAA tourney games, you have to blow teams out. They aren't calling for K's head but if K didn't have four rings and a pile of final four's, they would be. It defies explanation, but there it is. I wouldn't trade being the hero of Butler for that for the minor difference in pay that will be coming with the move.


There are a lot of benefits to coaching an elite program that go along with those high expectations (incredible facilities, private jets for recruiting, etc). Also, it is more than just a "minor difference" in pay.
   334. smileyy Posted: March 25, 2013 at 01:13 PM (#4395872)

I keep thinking Smart will leave but then it doesn't happen. Jobs at elite programs have a lot of #### associated with them. If you can make 80% of the salary at a mid-major, I'd probably take it.


I think given what a UCLA offer would look like, we'd be talking about him making 50% or 33% at VCU as he would elsewhere.


Smart seems he'd leave pretty soon though.


Maybe. It looks like VCU can have the run of the A-10 if they want it, though the A-10's stature has been diminished.
   335. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 25, 2013 at 01:27 PM (#4395878)
Hell, as a Duke grad (grad school, not undergrad) I know a lot of fans that are pissed off at how "bad" they are this year and that they didn't win the ACC. You don't have to just win NCAA tourney games, you have to blow teams out. They aren't calling for K's head but if K didn't have four rings and a pile of final four's, they would be. It defies explanation, but there it is.


Oh, good lord. I'm also a Duke grad, and people like that should be shot for giving the rest of us a bad name.
   336. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 25, 2013 at 01:43 PM (#4395887)
while i appreciate the body of bo ryan's coaching efforts at times i do wish the team played a different style of game

   337. JoeHova Posted: March 25, 2013 at 03:16 PM (#4395994)
while i appreciate the body of bo ryan's coaching efforts at times i do wish the team played a different style of game

Same here. It's easy to see why his style is unattractive to a lot of top recruits. That said, it's pretty unbelievable how well he's done at UW, given where they were for most of the 50 or so years before he arrived.
   338. I am going to be Frank Posted: March 25, 2013 at 03:23 PM (#4396002)
How are UCLA's facilities? I know Pauley was just remodeled but don't know about practice facilities, athletic support center, etc. Being a coach at a high-major with a strong history isn't all that cracked up to be. Sure the salary is going to be higher but expectations are out of whack. The volatility due to one-and-dones basically makes every season a crap shoot.
   339. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: March 25, 2013 at 03:34 PM (#4396016)
How are UCLA's facilities? I know Pauley was just remodeled but don't know about practice facilities, athletic support center, etc.


aside form Pauley (redone as noted) I've heard uttered today (and in the past) that they are dreadful. On the flip side Nebraska has a new practice/training facility for basketball (yes, basketball) that is at the top in the country, and they are moving into a brand spanking new downtown arena. Get back to me when they win their first ever NCAA tournament game. Meanwhile, colleges that open there doors in 1997 are in the sweet sixteen.
   340. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 25, 2013 at 03:38 PM (#4396026)
How are UCLA's facilities?


Plenty of good seats available.
   341. hokieneer Posted: March 25, 2013 at 06:43 PM (#4396290)
Tubby Smith out at Minnesota.
   342. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: March 25, 2013 at 07:14 PM (#4396304)
Really? That Minnesota team did about as well as you could expect them to. I guess you could fire him for lack of recruiting, but c'mon, it's Minnesota.
   343. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: March 25, 2013 at 07:17 PM (#4396305)
Ugh, and we're going to have to pay a 2.5 million dollar buyout. Good job, shitty new AD.
   344. Jeff Frances the Mute Posted: March 25, 2013 at 07:29 PM (#4396312)
It seems that Minnesota's AD thinks that he can get Smart due to their previous working experience.
   345. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 25, 2013 at 08:06 PM (#4396331)
joe

he basically took dick Bennett's style and tweaked it a tad.

i just don't like the over reliance on 3 pointers.
   346. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: March 25, 2013 at 08:32 PM (#4396349)
It seems that Minnesota's AD thinks that he can get Smart due to their previous working experience.


Yeah, and I'm just not seeing that. We don't have the money or prestige or recruiting power of a UCLA, nor do we have the facilities that will pull in top recruits. Smart can get more money and a better starting point by going to one of the bigger name programs looking for a coach.

Oh well. Teague will get fired after he has to settle for some retread and we finish under .500 two years from now.
   347. Jeff Frances the Mute Posted: March 25, 2013 at 08:46 PM (#4396363)
Yeah, if Smart wanted something bigger and better than the Illinois job then it wouldn't make a lot of sense to take the Minnesota job.
   348. hokieneer Posted: March 25, 2013 at 09:12 PM (#4396377)
Yeah, if Smart wanted something bigger and better than the Illinois job then it wouldn't make a lot of sense to take the Minnesota job.


Plus the B1G has been pretty loaded the past few years, and that's without the recent resurgence of Michigan and Indiana. At best Minnesota is what the 7th best job in the conference? 8th if you count Maryland.

What has the Pac-12 had, besides Arizona & UCLA, that has had anything close to the level of success as the top 3-4-5 B1G team? Hell expand it to west coast basketball, and there's still not a lot of competition.
   349. starksy Posted: March 25, 2013 at 10:19 PM (#4396432)
Just got back from Kansas City today.

Kansas looked vulnerable throughout the entire time there. They never really felt like a one seed, but with the way this tournament is going...

Marshall Henderson was the only player from Ole Miss booed fairly consistently; he really became a story out there.

LaSalle is dangerous when their guards are on a roll. Galloway looked like the best player on the court both games.
   350. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 25, 2013 at 10:49 PM (#4396443)
As a rookie, Neumann "guarded" the Carolina Cougars' Larry "Who?" Miller


Miller had been a 2 time ACC player of the year, but was a 6'4" tweener.

Jeez, you have to be at least 60 to remember Larry Miller, but for Carolina fans he was their first great (college) player after Billy Cunningham. In the season finale in Cameron in his senior year, Carolina had a big lead late in the game, but Bob Verga hit one long shot after another to finally tie the game with about 10 or 12 seconds to go.

The Cameron crowd was going absolutely nuts, but while they were screaming themselves hoarse, Miller calmly took the inbounds pass without a timeout, and dribbled the entire length of the floor through the entire Dook team for a game winning 3-point layup right at the buzzer. One of the greatest endings to a game I'd ever seen up to that point. I've never heard a Cameron crowd so completely silent (except for me) as they were at the end of that game.

And yeah, Miller wasn't much as a pro, but then he wasn't nearly as big a bust as the Player of the Year, SI cover boy, and #1 1963 draft choice of the Knicks, the late and wildly overrated Art Heyman.
   351. Jay Z Posted: March 26, 2013 at 12:15 AM (#4396478)
joe

he basically took dick Bennett's style and tweaked it a tad.

i just don't like the over reliance on 3 pointers.


I think the 3 business comes from wanting to make those extra passes for the open look. Other shots require more responsibility on the part of the player and Bo would rather have as much control in his hands as possible.

Bo Ryan does a great job at maxing out on the number of Big Ten wins each and every year. The underachievement in the tournament I don't think will change. Maybe the players get burned out on him. I think most coaches and teams can sense how things are going at a point in a season, and sometimes to peak or get on a roll you need to let things ride a bit. Bo's probably not capable of doing that. He will deliver teams every year that hit a good plateau but never one that hits a peak.

Plus he's even more inflexible than Bennett was on who can stand to play that style of ball. With the emphasis on the 3 there are definitely many players who should never go there. He has probably helped Marquette by providing such an obvious contrast in styles.
   352. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: March 26, 2013 at 08:19 AM (#4396534)
'Sup! I actually haven't watched the tourney the last 4 years because I always seem to be traveling to weird places in March but, man, the basketball in this tourney seems really poor since the last one I really paid attention to all the way through. Is this just a one-off or a trend?

Also, Iowa State was robbed. I was watching that game with the sound off and I just assumed it was a basket and a foul shot. A really terrible call.
   353. just plain joe Posted: March 26, 2013 at 08:31 AM (#4396540)
Really? That Minnesota team did about as well as you could expect them to. I guess you could fire him for lack of recruiting, but c'mon, it's Minnesota.


Not being able to recruit enough quality players was the main knock against Smith at Kentucky. I don't think too many UK fans thought that he was a bad coach, he just was not able to recruit the 5 star players UK fans expected. Well, that and using his son Saul as his starting point guard when it was fairly obvious the kid did not have the skills needed for the position. When it comes to directing and motivating players Smith is as good as anyone else, IMHO.
   354. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 08:33 AM (#4396541)
And yeah, Miller wasn't much as a pro, but then he wasn't nearly as big a bust as the Player of the Year, SI cover boy, and #1 1963 draft choice of the Knicks, the late and wildly overrated Art Heyman.


When I was a kid, someone gave me a half-dozen or so early '60s SIs (at the time, they would've been around 7 years old), & that Heyman issue was among them. At the time, that was the first I'd heard of him. (Around the same time I also received a couple of basketball guides from the same era, also featuring the occasional unknown. Who was Roger Kaiser, & why did he rate coverage in a book that also profiled the likes of Wilt Chamberlain?)

Heyman did have at least one solid pro season, playing with Connie Hawkins on the ABA's first championship team, the Pittsburgh Pipers. Judging from Foul!, he was crazy as a loon.

   355. Bitter Mouse Posted: March 26, 2013 at 08:58 AM (#4396550)
Really? That Minnesota team did about as well as you could expect them to. I guess you could fire him for lack of recruiting, but c'mon, it's Minnesota.


This is a misread on many levels. Smith has been under fire here for a while. There is a sense (fair or not) that the program is sort of drifting along. Midrange players get recruited and never get better, the style of play is OK but uneven and somewhat undisciplined. Basically that Tubby was going through the motions.

This year was the last straw because they had the best team they have had in a while, started really well and then again hit the conference schedule and fell apart in a burst of uneveness.

AD dude and his right hand man suppossedly know basketball and have a huge amount of "ins" with coaches all over the country (I heard something about one of them started or worked for a program for new coaches or something - I was driving and did not catch it all). Anyway they clearly feel this is an area of strength for them and they can do better than old coach playing out the string.

I am not saying they will get Smart or whoever, just that they feel comfortable they can get an upgrade on what they have.

EDIT: The difference between local and national reaction to the firing has been interesting. I suspect beause Tubby is a "name".
   356. SoSH U at work Posted: March 26, 2013 at 09:54 AM (#4396594)
EDIT: The difference between local and national reaction to the firing has been interesting. I suspect beause Tubby is a "name".


I think it's because the suspicion that they can get a better guy than Smith, name or not, is not shared around the nation. I don't think Minny is even the 7th best job (pre-Maryland) in the Big 10. Purdue is better, and Iowa might be too.

   357. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 10:01 AM (#4396610)

'Sup! I actually haven't watched the tourney the last 4 years because I always seem to be traveling to weird places in March but, man, the basketball in this tourney seems really poor since the last one I really paid attention to all the way through. Is this just a one-off or a trend?


I think that's been true the last few years. NCAA has to do something about the overwhelming physicality and lack of skill hurting the game.


Kansas looked vulnerable throughout the entire time there. They never really felt like a one seed, but with the way this tournament is going...


I was at that game. Kansas looked vulnerable I guess, but only in the way that every team in the country has looked vulnerable this year. The Hawks struggle to score at times, but their defense never seems to go into slumps, and I have a hard time thinking there are too many teams better than them defensively. How many players make as big a difference as Jeff Withey did Sunday? 16 points 16 boards 5 blocks (which seems way too low for what he had), and I don't know 10-15 altered shots that were missed?

A good point I heard on the radio yesterday is that people are conditioned to think of KU as Roy's team, scoring 90 points at will. That's not KU anymore. Bill Self brought his physical, Illinois-style defense-first coaching style with him. So when the Hawks win 66-60 instead of 90-84, people think they're struggling. They're not. They've just evolved from emulating North Carolina to emulating Michigan State.

That being said, Michigan is a tough opponent for them if the shots from outside fall, and Ben McLemore better get his head out of his ass or the Hawks are sunk.
   358. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 26, 2013 at 10:47 AM (#4396652)
He has probably helped Marquette by providing such an obvious contrast in styles.

I think Ryan's helped both programs.

Who was Roger Kaiser

Pre-Bobby Cremins, he (SEC POTY and a 2 time A-A) and Rich Yunkus were GT basketball, thank you very much.

352: I think thia has been a pretty poor tourney, apart from the NCAA's issues with physicality, pace, and overly controlled games.
   359. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: March 26, 2013 at 11:09 AM (#4396682)
So when the Hawks win 66-60 instead of 90-84, people think they're struggling. They're not. They've just evolved from emulating North Carolina to emulating Michigan State.


I'm pretty sure a Florida-Kansas Elite Eight game would end up 50-48.

An entertaining, athletic 50-48 game, but 50-48 nonetheless. There is some ferocious defense played by those clubs.
   360. I am going to be Frank Posted: March 26, 2013 at 11:22 AM (#4396704)
How similar/different is VCU's defense vis-a-vis Florida's and Kansas' defenses? I've basically limited myself to watching Michigan games this year. I know Donovan was a Pitino guy - so does he still run a full-court press? When Self was at Illinois, Michigan was terrible so didn't watch many games.
   361. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: March 26, 2013 at 11:25 AM (#4396710)
I guess Miller was the ABA's Mark Whiten.

On a bad Sixers team in 94/5, Dana Barros and Willie Burton (53) had 50 point games. Certainly Burton belongs in the Mark Whiten club.
   362. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: March 26, 2013 at 11:29 AM (#4396715)
I know Donovan was a Pitino guy - so does he still run a full-court press?


Not as a standard defense, no. Donovan's first team to reach the national championship game back in 2000 went 10 or 11 deep and pressed all day, and that's the impression people got about his play style. But he hasn't really replicated that since. This year's Florida team is one of the best defensive clubs Donovan has ever had, and they usually just play straight-up defense. Some zone, a strategically utilized press, but generally speaking Florida just goes man and plays it straight. UF has a lot of quality individual defenders, and it adds up to a great overall defense.

EDIT: They pressed Minnesota a lot Sunday and the Gophers had trouble handling it. They also used the press extensively in the win over Kentucky during the regular season. It's something Florida has in the bag of tricks, but they're not really a "pressing" team.
   363. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 11:32 AM (#4396719)
Pre-Bobby Cremins, he (SEC POTY and a 2 time A-A) and Rich Yunkus were GT basketball, thank you very much.


I came across Kaiser's name a few years ago while researching the old, short-lived American Basketball League. Apparenlty, his pro career consisted of that league's 1 1/2 seasons, & that was it.

Rich Yunkus! That name rings a vague bell; 1971 or so was when I first started paying attention to basketball.
   364. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 11:36 AM (#4396726)
On a bad Sixers team in 94/5, Dana Barros and Willie Burton (53) had 50 point games. Certainly Burton belongs in the Mark Whiten club.


If memory serves, somebody on one of the really bad early Cavaliers scored something like 53 in a game. Walt Wesley, maybe?


Edit: Actually, it was a flat 50 by Wesley, on 2/19/71 against Cincy, per this list of players scoring 50 & up.
   365. VoodooR Posted: March 26, 2013 at 11:39 AM (#4396730)
Been staying away from any cbball discussion the last couple days, cause I'm pretty bitter about what went down over the weekend, but I will say this:

Gonzaga: EPIC FAIL

Mark Few has been a great program builder, but he is a lousy in-game coach, especially in March.
   366. smileyy Posted: March 26, 2013 at 01:51 PM (#4396876)
A results-oriented look at Mark Few:

He's made the NCAA tournament 14 straight years, for an overall 18-14 record.
He's 8-5 in upsets -- winning 8 games as a lower seed, and losing 5 as a higher seed -- one of those wins is an 8/9, which is a tossup in terms of seeding
Before this year, he was +3 in terms of advancing to extra rounds vs. losing early (a 2-seed should lose in the Elite 8, so losing in the round of 32 is a -2). This year drops him to even.
In 5 trips as a 4-or-higher seed, they've played to seed twice, and lost early three times, never exceeding.
Most of his success came in 1999-2001, with an Elite 8, and back to back Sweet 16s.

Is it a big crapshoot? Nobody gets sustained tournament success anymore? If I had to guess, I'd say the WCC is making Gonzaga look worse at tournament time. I don't think they're as proven as their seeding and results indicate. Sure, they play a tough OOC schedule, but they spend a couple months before the tournament playing the WCC (with maybe a good OOC game in the middle?) But high profile Big East flops demonstrate that a "better" conference doesn't guarantee results.
   367. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:03 PM (#4396882)
I don't think they're as proven as their seeding and results indicate. Sure, they play a tough OOC schedule, but they spend a couple months before the tournament playing the WCC (with maybe a good OOC game in the middle?)


I've heard the idea from at least one or two "experts" that mid-majors should move their conference schedule up to before winter break, then spend the last few weeks of the regular season playing OOC against other good mid-majors. I don't know if that would help or not.
   368. Delorians Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:10 PM (#4396887)
EDIT: The difference between local and national reaction to the firing has been interesting.

This is probably due to the fact that performance during his tenure exceeded performance in the immediate preceeding years, and fans tend to overrate the importance/ability/expectations of their own program.
   369. smileyy Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:20 PM (#4396899)
[367] I think what's playing out is that schools dedicated to basketball success are moving up the food chain. The Atlantic-10 seems to be the new "feeder" conference -- the A-10 is bringing in George Mason and Siena as Butler, Xavier and Temple leave for more competitive conferences.

Pity that Gonzaga has nowhere to go.
   370. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:24 PM (#4396904)
Pity that Gonzaga has nowhere to go.

Could they join the MWC as a basketball only school?
   371. Topher Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:28 PM (#4396911)
Kansas looked vulnerable I guess, but only in the way that every team in the country has looked vulnerable this year.


Aren't you a KU guy, AG#1F? I think there were at least 6 times in the first two games where outlet passes were thrown either directly to the opposition or over a teammates head or something of that nature. And then you have the fact that nobody on the roster is comfortable handling the ball with the possible exception of Naadir Tharpe. And even Tharpe does some really dumb things. When Elijah Johnson is dribbling the ball there is always a risk that the defender is going to swipe it from him. Travis Releford has the same risk (except oddly when he is driving the basket) and McLemore doesn't have much a handle either.

Agree with you that the KU defense shows up every night and is likely to keep them in games but the inability to hold onto the ball is what led them to be a risk to losing to a 16 seed and being down by a dozen to UNC in the first half.

KU also has ridiculously inefficient shooting. KU has three scoring options: McLemore, Withey, and Releford. McLemore does take the most shots on the team. But Johnson and Tharpe (and Perry Ellis) shoot more than Withey and Releford. Heck, even Kevin Young shoots more frequently than Releford does.

When KU is at their best, they are hard to beat. But more often than not, you get the Kansas offense that really struggles to score points. Especially since this team lacks a ballhawk that can generate easy points off of steals.
   372. smileyy Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:29 PM (#4396913)
[370] I think that was proposed (handshake agreed to?) when the Big East was raiding the Mountain West and all sorts of other craziness was going on. Or was that another move I was thinking of?
   373. Topher Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:33 PM (#4396915)
In addition the points noted above about letting go of Tubby Smith, I also think a big factor is that next season is going to be one of the rare occasions where Minnesota has really good in state talent and the rumors seem to indicate that Smith wasn't going to land any of the players.

Going off Rival's rankings, the state of Minnesota currently has the #3, #6, and #41 overall ranked Juniors. I don't think any coach is likely to keep the top two in state, but I can understand wanting to get a coach that theoretically has a chance of getting one of them to sign.
   374. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: March 26, 2013 at 02:38 PM (#4396918)
Or was that another move I was thinking of?

You needed a program to keep track of the conference reshuffle that happened then. Maybe the WCC and the Big West should merge their better schools into one slightly better basketball conference? I say this selfishly as a Pacific alum, for full disclosure. Then again, I'm not sure the Big West adds anything there...
   375. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 26, 2013 at 03:13 PM (#4396955)

Aren't you a KU guy, AG#1F? I think there were at least 6 times in the first two games where outlet passes were thrown either directly to the opposition or over a teammates head or something of that nature. And then you have the fact that nobody on the roster is comfortable handling the ball with the possible exception of Naadir Tharpe. And even Tharpe does some really dumb things. When Elijah Johnson is dribbling the ball there is always a risk that the defender is going to swipe it from him. Travis Releford has the same risk (except oddly when he is driving the basket) and McLemore doesn't have much a handle either.

Agree with you that the KU defense shows up every night and is likely to keep them in games but the inability to hold onto the ball is what led them to be a risk to losing to a 16 seed and being down by a dozen to UNC in the first half.

KU also has ridiculously inefficient shooting. KU has three scoring options: McLemore, Withey, and Releford. McLemore does take the most shots on the team. But Johnson and Tharpe (and Perry Ellis) shoot more than Withey and Releford. Heck, even Kevin Young shoots more frequently than Releford does.

When KU is at their best, they are hard to beat. But more often than not, you get the Kansas offense that really struggles to score points. Especially since this team lacks a ballhawk that can generate easy points off of steals.


Yes I am, and I acknowledge all the flaws you point out. I just see a lot of teams at the top with lots of flaws though, and I think if you are great on defense, you're going to win more than not because defense typically does not take a night off, whereas sometimes the jumpers just don't fall.

But yea, those stupid turnovers were infuriating.
   376. Bitter Mouse Posted: March 26, 2013 at 03:27 PM (#4396966)
I don't think it fair to judge the quality of everythign on this year. Or at least pretty much everyone acknowledges that there is much more parity at the top end (perhaps everyone is just watered down), but in any event it does stand in some contrast to the last few years where there were a couple of teams (sometimes just one) head and shoulders above the rest.

Regarding the Gophers I don't know if it matters what anyone thinks of their chances of getting a better coach than Tubby except the opinion of the guys that fired him - and it is pretty obvious what they thought. Here in MN it is not at all a surprise he was fired, many in local media have been saying it would happen (absent a huge NCAA run) for the past few months.

I think the Gophers should aspire to middle of the conference pack with occasional top three finishes. It is not Indiana or MSU, but tere is no reason they can't want to grow into at least what Wisconsin is now in Basketball. And if that is what they want (and I thinkit is, and it is a different matter if you think that unrealistic) dumping Tubby makes sense, ebcause there was no way he was going to get them there, even if he was about as good as MN could "expect".
   377. VoodooR Posted: March 26, 2013 at 03:41 PM (#4396979)
Maybe the WCC and the Big West should merge their better schools into one slightly better basketball conference? I say this selfishly as a Pacific alum, for full disclosure. Then again, I'm not sure the Big West adds anything there...


Wait ... are you not aware that Pacific is joining the WCC starting next year?
   378. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: March 26, 2013 at 03:44 PM (#4396984)
Wait ... are you not aware that Pacific is joining the WCC starting next year?

I had no idea. I've been too busy ducking calls from the alumni association! That's a nice move for them and good news for broke-ass Stockton!
   379. VoodooR Posted: March 26, 2013 at 03:52 PM (#4396996)
*dup removed*
   380. VoodooR Posted: March 26, 2013 at 03:53 PM (#4396997)
*dup removed*
   381. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: March 26, 2013 at 04:11 PM (#4397012)
As I understand it there are only three private colleges in the western half of the United States that aren't already in the Pac-12, so it will always be hard for Gonzaga to find a home.

Also: Pacific is in Stockton? I thought it was, like, near the Pacific somewhere.
   382. SouthSideRyan Posted: March 27, 2013 at 12:23 AM (#4397368)
[366] You're giving Few credit for Monson's last year. Mark Few has never made an Elite 8.
   383. smileyy Posted: March 27, 2013 at 05:50 AM (#4397425)
whoops. thanks for the correction.
   384. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: March 27, 2013 at 08:56 AM (#4397453)
KU also has ridiculously inefficient shooting.


i think they also led the nation in FG% defense.
   385. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 27, 2013 at 09:28 AM (#4397474)
Also: Pacific is in Stockton? I thought it was, like, near the Pacific somewhere.

You and Michael Olowokandi. (gives self high-five)
   386. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: March 27, 2013 at 09:43 AM (#4397485)
You and Michael Olowokandi. (gives self high-five)

Hey! I missed Olowokandi by a year but my professors loved the guy. Very smart, very humble. Pacific didn't even recruit him--he called the school because he was interested in the engineering program. I was disappointed he flopped so badly in the NBA, but I get the impression basketball was never all-encompassing for him.

And Stockton is a port city, jerks!
   387. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 27, 2013 at 09:58 AM (#4397499)
He also supposedly first considered Pacific because he was flipping through a directory of schools and thought it might be a beautiful place.
To his credit, he was a hell of a player that last season.
   388. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: March 27, 2013 at 10:05 AM (#4397503)
He also supposedly first considered Pacific because he was flipping through a directory of schools and thought it might be a beautiful place.

The campus is beautiful and the neighborhood around the school is nice. Other than that...How would you like to be a college coach at a nondescript program at a nondescript college and have a guy like Olowokandi recruit YOU.
   389. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: March 27, 2013 at 10:15 AM (#4397513)
My brother once said before a September '94 kickoff, 'for the next two seasons, the winner of the Pacific at Nebraska football game is going to win the national title.' That statement turned out to be true, but he should have said, the loser of this football game will disband its program.
   390. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: March 27, 2013 at 10:23 AM (#4397516)
My brother once said before a September '94 kickoff, 'for the next two seasons, the winner of the Pacific at Nebraska football game is going to win the national title.' That statement turned out to be true, but he should have said, the loser of this football game will disband its program.

You are bringing back memories! One of my roommates at UOP was on the football team and I had several friends on the team and the night before they left for Nebraska was pretty glum. They knew they were fodder and there was no pretending otherwise.
   391. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: March 27, 2013 at 10:27 AM (#4397520)
Is the American Metro Conference or whatever going to have an autobid? What about the CYO Conference?


Poor uconn...3 national titles in recent memory and they are consigned to mid majordom. Cincy too.
   392. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: March 27, 2013 at 10:32 AM (#4397526)
UOP's team was great sports, they played their rears off, their QB (Wiehlan?) managed to throw for about 280 in the '94 game, even if it ended up 70-21. (That's the game where Tommie Frazier suffered a leg injury (blood clots) on the 9th play of the game. '95 game was 49-7, but TO definitely let off the gas. I think Nebraska ran for 580 on the ground.

The team ate out at Misty's (a well known Prime Rib/Steakhouse in Lincoln) we saw them there and they were warmly received by the locals.
   393. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: March 27, 2013 at 10:44 AM (#4397538)
They were a decent team in 95. I played touch football with a few of the players--an O lineman, a D lineman and one of the CB's. The O lineman was an incredible athlete. He could kick the ball 70 yards, threw like a QB and was damn near as fast as the CB. I think if he'd been at a better program he would have been a great tight end instead of just a good outside tackle. He was just a monster.
   394. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 27, 2013 at 10:46 AM (#4397539)

And Stockton is a port city, jerks!


Any minor league baseball fan would know that.
   395. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: March 27, 2013 at 10:57 AM (#4397550)
I thought the baseball team was named after the drink.
   396. VoodooR Posted: March 27, 2013 at 11:17 AM (#4397570)
As I understand it there are only three private colleges in the western half of the United States that aren't already in the Pac-12, so it will always be hard for Gonzaga to find a home.


You mean, aside from the entire WCC, right?

I had no idea. I've been too busy ducking calls from the alumni association! That's a nice move for them and good news for broke-ass Stockton!


Good for Pacific, perhaps, but I don't think it is going to make the WCC a stronger league, at least with regards to providing more of a challenge to Gonzaga. And with St. Mary's about to enter into a probation era stemming from recruiting malfeasance in their Australian pipeline, it seems like this last year may have been the high-water mark for the league (four top 100 teams). And who knows how long BYU sticks around -- they could be gone at any moment.

With damn few options, it's possible that the only way that Gonzaga ever gets into a better conference is for the mid/bottom tier of the WCC to improve considerably. Schools like Santa Clara, Pepperdine, San Francisco, Loyola Marymount (and Pacific) have had some modicum of success in the last couple decades (USF hasn't been good for 30+ years), but haven't been able to sustain it and build a program. Based on location and school type, there is no reason that the WCC couldn't notionally become a A-10/C-7 West type conference, but some of those other schools are going to need to commit to their programs.
   397. PepTech Posted: March 27, 2013 at 12:30 PM (#4397645)
This seems as good a spot to any to ask - any opinions about John Feinstein or his "One on One" book? Trying to decide if I should invest some time in that one...
   398. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 27, 2013 at 12:55 PM (#4397668)
Only thing of Feinstein's I've ever read, I'm pretty sure, was The Punch, which was solid.

Well, that & the periodic column he used to have in either SI or TSN, which tended to be nothing special, IIRC.
   399. smileyy Posted: March 27, 2013 at 02:34 PM (#4397766)
[396] The A-10 over the past decade hasn't had a ton of success getting its lower-tier teams to perform, though this year they had 13 of the 16 teams in KenPom's top 150. So maybe there's hope.
   400. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 27, 2013 at 02:39 PM (#4397770)
Top 150? Aim high, why dontcha.
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