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Tuesday, July 08, 2014

OT: Monthly NBA Thread- July 2014

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: German aggression and Israeli aggression of entirely different types.

andrewberg Posted: July 08, 2014 at 08:17 PM | 1081 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nba, off topic

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   1. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 09, 2014 at 06:38 PM (#4747465)
mike woodson added to clips staff
   2. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 09, 2014 at 06:51 PM (#4747496)
   3. The District Attorney Posted: July 09, 2014 at 06:57 PM (#4747511)
Donald Sterling trial!

@DanWoikeSports

"I will never, ever, ever sell this team. Until I die. I wall be suing the NBA" This should've been in all caps - he's shouting
   4. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 09, 2014 at 06:57 PM (#4747513)
DAL and Parsons agree on 3/45 according to Stein.
   5. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 09, 2014 at 06:59 PM (#4747515)
Houston has 3 days from that point to match ... and use up their cap space.
   6. The District Attorney Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:01 PM (#4747517)
Interesting development. I assume this means Houston really, really wants Bosh to decide, like, right now?

But he presumably won't, until LeBron does...
   7. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:02 PM (#4747519)
They've a few days, but yeah.
   8. andrewberg Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:07 PM (#4747520)
Does the RFA clock start ticking when they agree to an offer sheet or when they sign the offer sheet after the moratorium ends?
   9. Quaker Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:15 PM (#4747525)
Isn't Parsons better than Hayward? Surprised GH got an extra year/$18MM.
   10. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:28 PM (#4747535)
Parsons is nowhere near worth $15MM a year.
   11. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:29 PM (#4747538)
Does the RFA clock start ticking when they agree to an offer sheet or when they sign the offer sheet after the moratorium ends?
Didn't the Knicks brass hide to delay receiving the Rockets' offer sheet to Lin? As in, literally couldn't not be found as to be handed some documents?
   12. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:31 PM (#4747540)
Isn't Parsons better than Hayward? Surprised GH got an extra year/$18MM.


I like Hayward a little more. He's a couple years younger, better at distributing, and a tiny bit better at creating his own shot (with higher potential here IMO). For a team like Houston I think Parsons is a better fit since he's more consistent from 3 and they don't need another wing who can create for others as much. I don't think that the difference is worth the extra year and $18M, however.

If Houston doesn't match, do they have to sign Bosh/Melo/whoever before the 3 days? Or would they have max cap room after too?
   13. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:34 PM (#4747544)
FWIW:
Adrian Wojnarowski ?@WojYahooNBA 15m
No clear answer yet on Rockets matching sheet, but GM Morey had been on phone w/ agents for Ariza, Deng and Pierce today, sources tell Y.


I don't think any of them make sense if Parsons is back, right?
   14. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:34 PM (#4747545)
1. Woj claiming HOU has offered Dirk the max.

2. Sheridan claims LeBron to CLE is a done deal.
   15. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:35 PM (#4747546)
Does the RFA clock start ticking when they agree to an offer sheet or when they sign the offer sheet after the moratorium ends?


It's when they sign it.
   16. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:35 PM (#4747547)
Offering Dirk the max does not sound like a Daryl Morey kind of thing to do. Perhaps they've been informed by Bosh that he's declining their offer and now Morey needs to spend the money on someone to avoid looking to all the world like the loser of a round of Musical Chairs?
   17. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:38 PM (#4747550)
Offering Dirk the max does not sound like a Daryl Morey kind of thing to do. Perhaps they've been informed by Bosh that he's declining their offer and now Morey needs to spend the money on someone to avoid looking to all the world like the loser of a round of Musical Chairs?


I can see offering Dirk the max at 2 or maybe 3 years. He's still great, and would be an absolutely insane fit for Dwight and Harden.
   18. theboyqueen Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:41 PM (#4747552)
Chandler Parsons is a FAR better player than Gordon Heyward. I think there is some gamesmanship going on with the Heyward offer, but if I were the Jazz I would not match it. That said I think it could work out for Charlotte the same way the Al Jefferson deal did.
   19. theboyqueen Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:42 PM (#4747554)
Hasn't Dirk basically said there is no way he's leaving Dallas?
   20. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:43 PM (#4747555)
I think Gordon Hayward's numbers would look a lot better if he was asked to do what Parsons does. I like Hayward a bit better.
   21. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:44 PM (#4747556)
Chandler Parsons is a FAR better player than Gordon Heyward.


Based on? And were you the one who set Hayward's player rating in NBA 2k14?
   22. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:49 PM (#4747557)
When does the moratorium end? 12:01 a.m. EDT tonight?
   23. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:49 PM (#4747558)
Chris Sheridan is/was a fairly well-respected hoops writer, right (I base that assumption on the fact that his Twitter account has a checkmark)? He's saying LeBron to Cleveland is a done deal.
   24. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:50 PM (#4747560)
Sheridan is well respected, yes. He was the Associated Press' national NBA writer for a long time.
   25. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:55 PM (#4747566)
I agree with robin from last month's thread: LeBron should make any contract with the Cavaliers contingent on Dan Gilbert doing some sort of humiliating public show of contrition. Maybe a flagellant walk through downtown Cleveland.
   26. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 09, 2014 at 07:57 PM (#4747567)
Not sure if this means anything, but...
Brian Windhorst ?@WindhorstESPN 1m
LeBron James does not have a meeting set with Cavs at this time, sources say.


And Woj on Bosh:
6:57pm: Bosh’s intention would be to leave Miami for Houston if LeBron doesn’t re-sign with the Heat, league sources tell Wojnarowski. The Rockets are prepared to clear enough cap room to offer Bosh a four-year, $88MM contract per Wojnarowski’s sources, although it remains to be seen if Chandler Parsons‘ looming offer sheet signing with the Mavs adds a wrinkle to those plans.
   27. cmd600 Posted: July 09, 2014 at 08:04 PM (#4747569)
Chris Sheridan is/was a fairly well-respected hoops writer


Was more than is at this point.
   28. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 09, 2014 at 08:05 PM (#4747570)
LeBron James does not have a meeting set with Cavs at this time, sources say.


It means whatever you prefer--still wishing for Cleveland? It means the deal's already done, so no further meetings are necessary! Still convinced he ain't leaving Miami? It means he sewed things up with Pat Riley today and he's done talking to Cleveland!
   29. theboyqueen Posted: July 09, 2014 at 08:07 PM (#4747571)
The more Gordon Hayward has been asked to do, the worse a player he has been. His shooting and turnover rates last year were horrific. Defensively he matches up best with shooting guards but can't seem stay with them. I don't think he's strong enough to guard tougher forwards and seems to get exploited in the post. His one plus defensive skill is obviously the chase down block, so that's something.

Parsons is an underrated defender and more versatile because of his extra size. I think he could passably defend 1-4 if he really develops his defensive skills. Of course playing with defensive clowns like Harden and Lin doesn't make things easy. Offensively he just seems more efficient than Hayward, but that might be because he plays with such great offensive players.

RAPM seems to support these impressions.

I think Gordon Hayward's numbers would look a lot better if he was asked to do what Parsons does. I like Hayward a bit better.


There is probably truth to this. His numbers did look better when his role was much less but that's not exactly flattering to his overall upside. But again, defensively I don't think Hayward CAN do what Parsons does.
   30. The District Attorney Posted: July 09, 2014 at 08:11 PM (#4747572)
Woj claiming HOU has offered Dirk the max.
Well, he claims HOU has a "standing offer" to him for the max. i.e., this is something Dirk was aware of before he decided to sign with Dallas for less anyway.
   31. theboyqueen Posted: July 09, 2014 at 08:19 PM (#4747578)

Hayward:
Season  Age USGORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS  WS/48
2010
-11 20  15.3 106  113  0.8 0.4 1.2 .048
2011
-12 21  17.8 113  109  3.8 1.0 4.9 .116
2012
-13 22  22.1 113  110  4.2 1.2 5.4 .123
2013
-14 23  23.1 104  111  2.2 1.5 3.6 .062

Parsons
:
Season  Age USGORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS  WS/48
2011
-12 23  16.7 105  105  1.6 1.8 3.4 .090
2012
-13 24  18.3 113  108  4.9 2.1 7.0 .121
2013
-14 25  19.3 114  108  5.1 2.5 7.6 .131 
   32. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 09, 2014 at 08:32 PM (#4747588)
The more Gordon Hayward has been asked to do, the worse a player he has been. His shooting and turnover rates last year were horrific. Defensively he matches up best with shooting guards but can't seem stay with them. I don't think he's strong enough to guard tougher forwards and seems to get exploited in the post. His one plus defensive skill is obviously the chase down block, so that's something.


That's true of basically everyone. He went from being the afterthought on offense (like Parsons) to being the focal point of the opposing defense. In a role more similar to Parsons' on the Rockets, both his TS% and USG% were slightly higher (though close enough to call them a wash). His TO% jumped up running the offense, but so did his A%. In Parson's age 23 season, he had an even worse TS% than Hayward did last year (at 23), while still having more of his FG assisted and a much lower USG%.

Zach Lowe sees Hayward developing into a good defender on the wing too, which I agree with. I see the physical tools, but he's had a joke of a coach without any sort of coherent plan for his team on defense (and I'm hopeful that's the reason for Favors' disappointing defensive performance), and last year played the bulk of his minutes with 3 sieves on defense on the floor (Burke, Jefferson, and Williams or Kanter). He was used for stretches on players like Christ Paul and other tough PGs or wings and to my eye did a good job bothering them with his length and keeping in front of them. He needs to improve, and if he wants to guard bigger wings he definitely needs to add strength.
   33. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 09, 2014 at 08:43 PM (#4747595)
1. Think Morey now thinks he was a little too clever for his own good with not keeping Parsons for less than a mil?
2. Best non-re-up deal so far, imo, might be Indy getting CJ Miles.
   34. bob gee Posted: July 09, 2014 at 09:05 PM (#4747610)
parsons appeared to play a LOT better defense last year than this past one. this year, he generally appeared to be a liability; last year, he looked to have ability to play fast, smaller guards OR stretch 4s - basically, anywhere that wasn't a banger down in the post.

i have no idea what happened between the two seasons, but i'd expect under carlisle (vs mchale) to see a huge improvement in his game.

also would expect him to get the ball a lot more often off of screens for pops, rather than at 25 feet away and acting like a point guard.

(Edit) 29 - lin played *much* better d this year; previously, he was gambling a bit too much off of passes - leading to increased steals, but also missed steals which gave the other team layups/open shots. this year, he stuck with his guy, and i thought played average to above-average defense. there was a lot of problems when harden would be lost on an island, and lin/parsons/anyone else would switch, their 'man' would score or get an assist...that's on harden.
   35. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 09, 2014 at 09:48 PM (#4747632)
As long as Harden continues to loaf on defense as he does, I can't consider him one of the league's best. For Harden to make 1st-team All-NBA... No.
   36. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 09, 2014 at 09:51 PM (#4747636)
As long as Harden continues to loaf on defense as he does, I can't consider him one of the league's best. For Harden to make 1st-team All-NBA... No.


He got two votes for all-defensive teams too.
   37. Howie Menckel Posted: July 09, 2014 at 10:27 PM (#4747648)
"Chris Sheridan is/was a fairly well-respected hoops writer, right"

used to know Chris pretty well, and yes. nice guy, if a bit iconoclastic - bizarrely was the lone voter not to have LeBron on his All-NBA First Team this year.
has his own website now, whether that could tempt someone to gamble on being first on a massive story - I can't say and don't know.

but he's hardly the guy who has spent his life sitting in his mom's basement. has covered countless NBA Finals and free agency periods and those regular season games, too. he does have sources.

if fatigue really does make cowards of us all, well, in this kind of primal pro beat competition - somebody bleeds. we'll find out who does, though my former teammate Woj has been dominating the landscape for several years now. "relentless" does not do him justice
   38. theboyqueen Posted: July 09, 2014 at 10:36 PM (#4747650)
He got two votes for all-defensive teams too.


Wow. Other guys who received votes: Tony Parker, Steph Curry, Darren Collison, Monta Ellis, David Lee, Rajon Rondo (must have been one hell of a 30 games of defense)

Either people are trolling with these votes or we have nothing to complain about when it comes to MVP or HOF voting in MLB.

   39. theboyqueen Posted: July 09, 2014 at 10:38 PM (#4747653)
As long as Harden continues to loaf on defense as he does, I can't consider him one of the league's best. For Harden to make 1st-team All-NBA... No.


No kidding. People want to complain about Curry's defense but he somehow managed to be a part of a great team defense, whether or not this was despite him. Harden may well be the primary reason Houston has a crappy team defense.
   40. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 09, 2014 at 10:49 PM (#4747655)
rumor!
vasquez stays with toronto for 2/13
phi/hou have conditional deal to send lin and a 1st to the the sixers should hou sign a max guy
   41. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 09, 2014 at 11:16 PM (#4747661)
11 / 15 - i believe the clock starts when the signed sheet is received by the rfa's old team - yeah, the knicks did hide from houston - we may see morey and co. replicate that move...
   42. Booey Posted: July 09, 2014 at 11:48 PM (#4747673)
I think Gordon Hayward's numbers would look a lot better if he was asked to do what Parsons does. I like Hayward a bit better.


That's my thinking too. Parsons played with Dwight Howard and James Harden; I'm guessing he got a LOT more easy shots than GH did. Feature him as the #1 option on a terrible team and I see his percentages cratering too.
   43. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 10, 2014 at 12:02 AM (#4747675)
Agreed
--
Moratorium now over; folks can sign
   44. tshipman Posted: July 10, 2014 at 12:13 AM (#4747676)
used to know Chris pretty well, and yes. nice guy, if a bit iconoclastic - bizarrely was the lone voter not to have LeBron on his All-NBA First Team this year.


That's not iconoclastic, just stupid.

I think Gordon Hayward's numbers would look a lot better if he was asked to do what Parsons does. I like Hayward a bit better.


Could not disagree more with this. Parsons has been better at the 3+D role, and has improved every year. Hayward's never shot 50% from 2p, Parsons has done it every year. Parsons is a better rebounder, passer and shooter for his career. What is Hayward better at than Parsons? Pretty much just getting to the FT line.
   45. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: July 10, 2014 at 12:22 AM (#4747678)
   46. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 10, 2014 at 12:36 AM (#4747679)
How is Parsons a better passer? Or younger?
   47. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 10, 2014 at 12:47 AM (#4747685)
One more thing: Parsons has also played a fair amount of four, Hayward a lot of two - this impacts their numbers (particular rebounds)
   48. theboyqueen Posted: July 10, 2014 at 12:49 AM (#4747686)
Who said he was younger? Both are good passers.

I don't know what you all are seeing in Hayward, to me he hasn't even shown that he's a good player yet. But apparently Michael Jordan disagrees with me, so what do I know?

EDIT:

One more thing: Parsons has also played a fair amount of four, Hayward a lot of two - this impacts their numbers (particular rebounds)


Well this certainly begs the question. An alternate explanation is that they play different positions because they play different positions.
   49. tshipman Posted: July 10, 2014 at 12:54 AM (#4747687)
How is Parsons a better passer? Or younger?


I don't know that age matters when both are past the age we could reasonably expect them to improve.

Parsons is a better passer in that he has similar numbers of assists with fewer turnovers despite handling the ball less.
   50. theboyqueen Posted: July 10, 2014 at 12:56 AM (#4747691)
Hayward has nobody to pass the ball to and still gets assists. He's a very good passer.
   51. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 10, 2014 at 01:10 AM (#4747697)
Both are good passers. I give Hayward a slight edge, despite the higher turnovers, due to quality of teammates. He has had significantly more assists. (This year 7.5/100 pos, v. 5.3 - on their careers, the gap was 5.8 to 4.8).

Rebounds are, to a significant degree, a function of your role. You take identical dudes and have one play the four, the other play the two - that first guy is getting more boards. (Also likely more points, less assists, will give up more on D...)

Fwiw, neither guy has done that well in RAPM, Hayward slightly better.

Hayward (2 yrs younger) will have a seasonal age of 24 this season - you consider that a finished product?
   52. tshipman Posted: July 10, 2014 at 01:19 AM (#4747703)
Rebounds are, to a significant degree, a function of your role. You take identical dudes and have one play the four, the other play the two - that first guy is getting more boards. (Also likely more points, less assists, will give up more on D...)


Why are you debiting rebounds from Parsons without crediting him for assists?

Hayward (2 yrs younger) will have a seasonal age of 24 this season - you consider that a finished product?


Yes. How many guys who have been in the league for 4 years change their game? Hayward is not going to become a primary ball handler, a go-to scorer or an elite defender--he doesn't have the tools to do so. He might shoot the 3 more consistently (he was godawful last year, but very good the year before). He's simply never going to be more than a third banana at best. He's proven he's not capable of shouldering a heavier load.

Basically, here's my thesis: It's unlikely, but theoretically possible that Parsons could do more.
Parsons is also a better 3-D player, so even if Parsons can't maintain efficiency at higher usage levels, he's still better than Hayward. Parsons also gives you marginally more flexibility, as he can play the 4. Neither can be a primary ball handler.
   53. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 10, 2014 at 01:29 AM (#4747708)
I made mention of the assist issue. That said, the impact of position is a lot bigger with boards, for simple proximity to goal reasons. (Since we are not talking about pg v other spots)

How many change their game past age X: well, I guess it depends on what we mean.
I'd argue that Hayward hasn't peaked and played in a system that did not cater to his strengths, such as they are. That doesn't require his game to change, just he build on what he is (and he can do a little of everything, so that's fine).
But guys do add elements to their game. Remember a preseason or summer league contest from a few years ago when Josh McRoberts took a zillion threes and we laughed about it in these threads. He's now laughed his way to the full MLE. Shawn Bradley became a legit good free throw shooter. Etc... - it does happen.

Oh, I also slightly prefer Hayward's defense to that of Parsons.

Not sure how Parsons is more flexible - if it means anything, he's spent more time at his primary position than Hayward. Parsons has been more efficient on offense, obviously.
   54. RollingWave Posted: July 10, 2014 at 05:36 AM (#4747728)
The Hayward vs Parsons thing is an interesting debate and a difficult one to really pin point, I think we all agree that both would suck when put in the Hayward situation and both would be quite good when put into the Parsons situation, so it's hard to really be clear.

I personally like Parsons more because he's better at what his role needs him to do, in terms of off ball cut and catch and shoot. I think Hayward's probably a better passer / handler but really if either guys are handling the ball alot for you your in trouble. and it's not like Parsons is Harrison Barnes with the ball.

I still find it hard to believe that Lebron would go back, but it would certainly be a cool story.

As for the Love trade, I really wouldn't do it if I were Cleveland, with Lebron and Iriving SCORING is not going to be your problem , defending is, Wiggins by all account should be a fabulous defender, they do need to find another center that's at least more healthy than Varejao (Asik would be perfect.) But really with the Heat completely dismantled and the Bulls missing on pretty much everyone, the Cavs with Lebron and any semblance of competence around him should easily get into the ECF at the very least.


   55. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 10, 2014 at 08:10 AM (#4747744)
rumor!
james johnson to toronto, 2 yr deal. he had a real nice mini-season (particularly the first half) last year...
   56. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 10, 2014 at 09:24 AM (#4747777)
deal reported alternately as the bae and as a chunk of the mle. maybe, 2/5m?
his '13-14 was a fluke (per = 18.5, ws/48 = .150), helped by career best passing, shot blocking, and ft numbers (shot 84.4%, previous career high was 72.9%). he's interesting in that he's a tweener who has been better when he's played more at his "smaller" position (as a three, rather than as a four) - which is not normally how these things go.
   57. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 10, 2014 at 09:59 AM (#4747810)
but he's hardly the guy who has spent his life sitting in his mom's basement. has covered countless NBA Finals and free agency periods and those regular season games, too. he does have sources.

I've always discounted Sheridan because of how convinced he was LeBron was going to the Knicks in 2010. He seems desperate for validation of his story. I think he let, and may be letting, what he wants the story to be influence his reporting. I obviously don't know him at all, but a reporter is only as good as his predictions...
   58. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 10, 2014 at 10:04 AM (#4747815)
Agreed, HMS. I don't find Sheridan credible, I think that like Isola he's just trying to get out in front of what he is convinced will be the story, I think he's wrong, I think LeBron is trolling Gilbert and was always going to return to Miami.

Of course I can freely post that to a web forum because I'm just some random jackass on the internet; the only reputation I'm putting at stake is my decidedly nonprofessional reputation on this site. :)
   59. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 10, 2014 at 10:15 AM (#4747824)
1. Think Morey now thinks he was a little too clever for his own good with not keeping Parsons for less than a mil?

Yes:
Mark Deeks @MarkDeeksNBA · 10h
You know how they could have had that $1.4mil more needed? By exercising Parsons's TO. RT @LarryCoon Hou STILL short of max room w/o Parsons
   60. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 10, 2014 at 10:17 AM (#4747826)
11 / 15 - i believe the clock starts when the signed sheet is received by the rfa's old team - yeah, the knicks did hide from houston - we may see morey and co. replicate that move...

Which is stupid. Doesn't the league review all contracts? You should be able to submit it to the league, and that's when the clock starts.
   61. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 10, 2014 at 10:22 AM (#4747831)
59 - I get wanting the hammer of restricted free agency, but - if this was the year to make a move for Houston - they really should have kept him at the team option. (said with and without hindsight)
I also think they shouldn't have let Daniels become a free agent, but that's way smaller potatoes.

60 - Agreed.
   62. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 10, 2014 at 10:28 AM (#4747835)
Article on complications with Asik HOU/NO deal.
I don't think it's a big deal - but it's one more thing on the pile for Morey to deal with.
   63. Eddo Posted: July 10, 2014 at 10:45 AM (#4747846)
For the web developer/NBA fan crossover demographic: more evidence for LeBron going to Cleveland?

EDIT: As a member of said demographic, this seems weirdly legit to me.
   64. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: July 10, 2014 at 11:20 AM (#4747886)
Finally, forensic proof!
   65. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 10, 2014 at 11:43 AM (#4747906)
I asked the Cavs fans I know about it, and they all already had seen it. And had already checked the colors. I mean, it's amazing/crazy the rumors/evidence coming through the process this FA period.

Having said that, I am starting to find myself more accepting of the possibility of LBJ going back to Cleve. This is an interesting take on the Gilbert dynamic, that while maybe I don't think exactly the same way I do wonder how LeBron has come to peace with that part of going back.
   66. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 10, 2014 at 11:48 AM (#4747914)
If he does go back to Cleveland--I still don't believe it, but let's imagine--then frankly, the fact is that LeBron has all the power in any relationship now, and Dan Gilbert will lick LeBron's shoes clean if LeBron wills it so. That probably would aid their reconciliation.
   67. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 10, 2014 at 11:53 AM (#4747919)
deal reported alternately as the bae and as a chunk of the mle. maybe, 2/5m?

Ryan Wolstat
Raptors used part of MLE to sign James Johnson. Bi-annual was not enough. Might be bit more than reported 2 yrs, $5M total.


---

I can't seem to find the tweet now, but someone pointed out that Edin Bavcic has now been on 5 diff NBA teams (Raps, 76ers, Hornets/Pelicans, Nets, Cavs), and traded twice for Jarrett Jack, but has never played in the NBA.
   68. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: July 10, 2014 at 12:01 PM (#4747935)
I don't know, I think James going back to the Cavs after Gilbert's mocking him for 4 years makes James look kinda wussified. I can see the admirable part of it, too, but that's not my lizard brain's immediate response.
   69. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 10, 2014 at 12:06 PM (#4747940)
If James were to go back to Cleveland--which, again, isn't actually going to happen because it's ####### Cleveland--but if he were, it would be partly because of sentimental attachment to his hometwon, but mostly because his business partners convinced him it was the most lucrative move.

Seriously though, do you really think, does anyone REALLY think, that one of the most famous people in the entire world, free to choose where he wants to live and work for 7 months a year--mostly winter, at that--is going to choose Cleveland? Why? "Because it's his hometown"? Then he knows even better than most of us how much it sucks! Especially compared to Miami.
   70. smileyy Posted: July 10, 2014 at 12:19 PM (#4747949)
Cleveland is actually kind of a nice city that has embraced it's rich history. I'd rank it above Milwaukee, Detroit, Philadelphia, OKC, Sacramento, and probably above Salt Lake City, Charlotte, Indianspolis, Memphis.
   71. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: July 10, 2014 at 12:25 PM (#4747953)
I thought that Pittsburgh and Cleveland have been held up as foils of each other in terms of how a post manufacturing city should operate. Pittsburgh is seen as an ideal of sorts and Cleveland as a failure.
   72. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 10, 2014 at 12:30 PM (#4747957)
Cleveland is a horrible city whose tourist slogan is "We're Not Detroit!" Philadelphia and Indianapolis are far, far moree tolerable. Memphis sucks but at least has FAR better weather.

Pittsburgh reinvented itself as a healthcare center and so escaped the fate of the rest of the Rust Belt, for now.
   73. andrewberg Posted: July 10, 2014 at 12:39 PM (#4747963)
Seriously though, do you really think, does anyone REALLY think, that one of the most famous people in the entire world, free to choose where he wants to live and work for 7 months a year--mostly winter, at that--is going to choose Cleveland? Why? "Because it's his hometown"? Then he knows even better than most of us how much it sucks! Especially compared to Miami.


FWIW, he has always lived there, even after he signed with Miami. I know that keeps him in the sun for a lot of the winter, but he clearly cares about the area.

In my arbitrary rankings of most desirable NBA destinations, I had Cleve ahead of only Milwaukee, Indianapolis (although I admit I know little about Indy), OKC, and SLC. I also had Miami first, ahead of the Lakers on income tax benefits.
   74. The Pequod Posted: July 10, 2014 at 12:40 PM (#4747964)
Seriously though, do you really think, does anyone REALLY think, that one of the most famous people in the entire world, free to choose where he wants to live and work for 7 months a year--mostly winter, at that--is going to choose Cleveland? Why? "Because it's his hometown"? Then he knows even better than most of us how much it sucks! Especially compared to Miami.


I hope this makes you feel good about yourself.
   75. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 10, 2014 at 12:43 PM (#4747966)
Justin Zeth is to Cleveland what KT's Pot Arb is to Dayton Moore. Geez, we get it.
   76. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 10, 2014 at 12:48 PM (#4747970)
I like Indianapolis. Of course I also kind of like Milwaukee. My Miami experiences have been negative. Never been to Cleveland. But my experiences and those of LBJ are likely not exactly comparable. I'm just saying.
   77. Manny Coon Posted: July 10, 2014 at 01:01 PM (#4747985)
My wife is from Akron, basically the same age as Lebron and she likes Cleveland, same with her dad. I think if you live around there long enough you sort of accept and learn to love the flaws.

I've been there once it seemed fine. I liked it better than Indianapolis, which I just really disliked from some reason, I don't even know why anymore; around the same time I went to Indy I also went to Chicago, Nashville, Louisville and Cincinnati and liked all those places better so maybe it was just matter not being as good as some other places.
   78. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 10, 2014 at 01:01 PM (#4747986)
If you want to live in Cleveland I don't mind, honest. I know numerous Clevelanders who will sing the city's virtues (granting most of them have never lived anywhere else). Between nothing much going on there and the godawful weather (Pittsburgh has similarly terrible weather; the area around Lake Erie features the worst all-around weather in the United States and that's a fact) there's a good reason why very few people with the means to live anywhere they want choose to live there.

But, you know, family is a thing.

I actually feel bad that Crispix and perhaps others of you think I hate Cleveland. (Edit: But it's fair, since I did just a few posts ago call it "a horrible city" after all.) I just think it's very unlikely someone of LeBron James' stature would choose to live there, particularly in the winter. I myself voluntarily live in Pennsylvania knowing well that there are better places to live, because family.
   79. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 10, 2014 at 01:13 PM (#4747995)
rumor!
Steve Blake gets the BAE (2/4.2) from POR
   80. billyshears Posted: July 10, 2014 at 01:21 PM (#4748000)
Philadelphia is mostly a very nice city. I have no idea why everybody who lives there is so angry.
   81. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 10, 2014 at 01:27 PM (#4748005)
I liked it better than Indianapolis, which I just really disliked from some reason, I don't even know why anymore


I like Indy (will be going there for GenCon in a month), but downtown seemingly always smells of urine. Pretty much everywhere you go you will be walking along and <sniff>, "yuck." I am grateful I have a terrible sense of smell every time I go there.
   82. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 10, 2014 at 01:32 PM (#4748008)
Philadelphia is mostly a very nice city. I have no idea why everybody who lives there is so angry.


A lot of Italians. They're not actually angry; loud and aggressive is just their default personality.
   83. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 10, 2014 at 01:41 PM (#4748014)
Of note: Dallas is waiting to send the Parsons offer sheet along to give them time to try to first work out a sign-and-trade with Houston.

--

Judging a city is slightly tricky. I was unimpressed by Philly, but is that just because I spent a lot of time around Drexel?
   84. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 10, 2014 at 01:52 PM (#4748021)
I don't get the Milwaukee dislike, I'm a fan (and said as much when this discussion was prompted last time by Jabari Parker). Liked Philly, can take or leave the Cleve. Fine with SLC, like Memphis. Never been to OKC or Sacremende. Detroit gets a bad rap; there are things to like but I'll never go by choice. Indy is the definition of blah. Neutral on Charlotte.

I really only dislike Houston, LA*, Phoenix and Orlando when it comes to NBA cities (in addition to the other two already mentioned, I've never been to Atlanta or San Antonio; though one common thread in my dislike appears to be extreme heat so both are probably starting in the red).

*Though there are still plenty of parts to like, overall, I'd avoid it.
   85. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 10, 2014 at 02:29 PM (#4748045)
Frank Isola @FisolaNYDN · 40m
World Wide Windhorst of ESPN is reportedly house hunting in Cleveland. So there's that.


Heh.
   86. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 10, 2014 at 02:37 PM (#4748063)
Brian Windhorst hast the most ridiculous job since Rachel Nichols was forced to camp out on Bret Farve's lawn.
   87. madvillain Posted: July 10, 2014 at 02:39 PM (#4748064)
the area around Lake Erie features the worst all-around weather in the United States and that's a fact


Any town within 10 or so miles on the west side of a Great Lake gets a rather large amount of snow every year. On the flip side, the summers are cooler. The small town I'm from in N. Michigan has lovely summers, but the winter is often 4 months (Dec through April) of "chances of snow flurries, heavy at times".
   88. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 10, 2014 at 02:40 PM (#4748066)
Yeah, it doesn't sound like LeBron is considering Windhorst at all in his decision process.

Doesn't Ed Werder live in Jerry Jones's trash cans? And didn't Pedro Gomez sleep under Barry Bonds's la-z boy?
   89. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 10, 2014 at 02:43 PM (#4748068)
but the winter is often 4 months (Dec through April)


I (and all of MN) laugh at this. Only 4 months? You lucky ducky.
   90. stevegamer Posted: July 10, 2014 at 02:51 PM (#4748073)

Judging a city is slightly tricky. I was unimpressed by Philly, but is that just because I spent a lot of time around Drexel?


Assuming it wasn't really recently, that definitely didn't help. University City gets a bit sketchy when you get farther out into West Philadelphia, and that can be a turn-off. The area around Drexel has really improved lately with a lot of stuff north of Market going on.

I cannot imagine Philly being behind Cleveland as place to live, unless you really like the lake or have family there. Both cities are older, and are heavily about neighborhoods, which makes it hard for outsiders to judge. Philly has a large edge on historical and 'cultural" things. Sports-wise, they have 3 major sports like Cleveland, plus the 76ers and Union.

Family trumps a lot.
   91. billyshears Posted: July 10, 2014 at 02:52 PM (#4748074)
I was unimpressed by Philly, but is that just because I spent a lot of time around Drexel?


Not to be flip, but yes. Center City/Downtown is completely different.
   92. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 10, 2014 at 02:52 PM (#4748075)
It's not just the snow in the Lake Erie area; it's the relentless cloudiness. The three cloudiest cities in the United States are Buffalo, Cleveland and Pittsburgh. (Buffalo is especially bad because it's sandwiched between two Great Lakes, I guess.) That line in Mike Polk's famous Cleveland Tourism Video that goes "we see the sun almost three times a year" is only slightly exaggerating.

In western Pennsylvania it rarely rains hard for a half-day or day straight; it drizzles off and on for days at a time. Eastern Pennsylvania, on the other side of the mountains, gets about the same annual rainfall but in a different way: it's sunny five days a week and rains hard two days a week. In Pittsburgh you get one or two sunny days a week and it's always overcast otherwise. Natives who have never lived anywhere else--I can say this from experience--don't realize this isn't normal.
   93. madvillain Posted: July 10, 2014 at 02:59 PM (#4748083)
I (and all of MN) laugh at this. Only 4 months? You lucky ducky.


Trust me, the winters, while not nearly as cold as the Twin Cities, aren't much better in N. MI. I was specifically referring to "snow dump" season, which is December through April. More than a few times we had snow on Halloween as a kid and snow on the field for our first baseball game in mid April.

t's not just the snow in the Lake Erie area; it's the relentless cloudiness. The three cloudiest cities in the United States are Buffalo, Cleveland and Pittsburgh. (Buffalo is especially bad because it's sandwiched between two Great Lakes, I guess.) That line in Mike Polk's famous Cleveland Tourism Video that goes "we see the sun almost three times a year" is only slightly exaggerating.


Yea it's awful, Seattle gets a bad rep for gloom, try living in Buffalo.
   94. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 10, 2014 at 03:03 PM (#4748087)
As I understand it, Seattle's actually only gloomy and rainy about four months a year, and a very nice, mild climate otherwise. Anyone who lives there/has lived there know? When I looked it up I was surprised to discover Seattle actually is *not* at the top of the U.S. rainfall list.
   95. madvillain Posted: July 10, 2014 at 03:07 PM (#4748091)
As I understand it, Seattle's actually only gloomy and rainy about four months a year, and a very nice, mild climate otherwise. Anyone who lives there/has lived there know? When I looked it up I was surprised to discover Seattle actually is *not* at the top of the U.S. rainfall list


I've been here almost 4 years, previous stints in updder midwest and NYC of greater than or same length. Seattle has by far the best weather. What you described is accurate. We have rainy/cloud season (November to May) and sunny/dry season (May to November). Native Seattlites don't carry umbrellas, and for good reason. We're in a rain shadow (good job Native Americas finding this awesome spot) and at most we see lighting twice a year. The average Seattle rainshower is a light mist or steady drizzle, the kind you can play baseball in.

Seattle gets a bad rep for weather because of the Socal people that move here are a vocal minority that loudly proclaim how awful it is compared to LA. I got news for ya folks: try Chicago or 80% of the rest of the country.
   96. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 10, 2014 at 03:07 PM (#4748092)
Surprised no one has made an offer to Bledsoe. Maybe McDonough scared everyone off with his "Don't bother; we'll match" pronouncement.
   97. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 10, 2014 at 03:08 PM (#4748093)
Surprised no one has made an offer to Bledsoe. Maybe McDonough scared everyone off with his "Don't bother; we'll match" pronouncement.


Then why not make an offer just to run up the price?
   98. Conor Posted: July 10, 2014 at 03:25 PM (#4748107)
Then why not make an offer just to run up the price?


It ties up your cap space for 3 days while the other team decides to match.

Woj just tweeted

Adrian Wojnarowski @WojYahooNBA · 17m
Cavs pressed Celtics/Nets officials to complete paperwork on 3-way trade in last hour, needed it done "immediately." Cap space is clear now.
   99. Booey Posted: July 10, 2014 at 03:25 PM (#4748108)
Can't add much from personal experience about the desirability of NBA cities since I've probably been to fewer of them than anyone else here (Salt Lake, Denver, Portland, Miami, Orlando, Memphis). Not counting SLC, the ones I liked the most were Portland and Miami.

But hey, if you count airport layovers, I can also claim Phoenix, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, Chicago, and Minneapolis! I'll rank Chicago as the best of the airports just cuz "The Iceman" George Gervin walked past me (to tie all this back to basketball).
   100. The District Attorney Posted: July 10, 2014 at 03:29 PM (#4748114)
How many "free associate about American cities" threads do we need?? Jesus God.

Then why not make an offer just to run up the price?
Right. I remember it being reported that the Knicks would be willing to pay a billion dollars for Lin. It's easy to say it.

But, I suppose it's possible that in a case like Bledsoe's -- i.e., everyone knows the guy doesn't want to leave, and he is good enough that the team is sure to match -- there's a gentleman's agreement not to make everyone's life tougher with very little chance of payoff. Of course, it still seems unnecessary to cede even a small potential payoff by abiding by that agreement... but, of course, that's what gentleman's agreements are all about. Certainly sounds like the Mavs (not exactly a hidebound traditionalist organization) feel that the Rockets haven't been "playing ball" in this sense. (Although maybe they're just claiming that to justify their own arguable violation of the pact, I dunno.)

Also:
@ChrisMannixSI

RFA Offer Sheet note: Teams can just email the signed offer sheet now. New rule that prevents the goofiness of Houston/NY stuff in 2012.

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