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Tuesday, July 08, 2014

OT: Monthly NBA Thread- July 2014

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: German aggression and Israeli aggression of entirely different types.

andrewberg Posted: July 08, 2014 at 08:17 PM | 1081 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nba, off topic

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   301. The District Attorney Posted: July 11, 2014 at 06:20 PM (#4749067)
Jordan Hill, also overcome by Linsanity, returns to the Lakers for $18m/2 yr. WE'RE GETTING THE BAND BACK TOGETHER!

And Isaiah Thomas to Phoenix, $27M/4 yr. Kings gonna King
   302. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 11, 2014 at 06:23 PM (#4749070)
Woj:@WojYahooNBA: Sacramento restricted free agent Isaiah Thomas has reached agreement on an offer sheet with Phoenix, league sources tell Yahoo Sports.
   303. MikeOberly Posted: July 11, 2014 at 06:23 PM (#4749071)
Doesn't that Thomas deal sound like a bargain?

Over under on number of on court glares from Kobe next season?
   304. Joey B. Posted: July 11, 2014 at 06:46 PM (#4749082)
Ugh, I just got through reading the entire text of Lebron's apologia on Sports Illustrated (almost certainly written with considerable help from his "people"), and I'm not quite sure whether to laugh or throw up. What a piece of work this guy is.
   305. andrewberg Posted: July 11, 2014 at 06:47 PM (#4749083)
Ugh, I just got through reading the entire text of Lebron's apologia on Sports Illustrated (almost certainly written with considerable help from his "people), and I'm not quite sure whether to laugh or throw up. What a piece of work this guy is.


Please, everyone just ignore this post. Not worth it.
   306. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: July 11, 2014 at 06:56 PM (#4749087)
I imagine many of us had successfully done so until you went and, y'know, quoted it.
   307. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 11, 2014 at 07:08 PM (#4749089)
And Isaiah Thomas to Phoenix, $27M/4 yr.
Really? Daaaaamn. Nice work by McDonough. If some other team offers Bledsoe a poison-pill offer sheet, the Suns are covered. And if a GM comes dangling frontcourt help, then either Bledsoe or Dragic is nice asset. But if neither happen, that's a hella deep backcourt.
   308. andrewberg Posted: July 11, 2014 at 07:15 PM (#4749093)
I imagine many of us had successfully done so until you went and, y'know, quoted it.


Touche :)
   309. andrewberg Posted: July 11, 2014 at 07:15 PM (#4749095)
Really? Daaaaamn. Nice work by McDonough. If some other team offers Bledsoe a poison-pill offer sheet, the Suns are covered. And if a GM comes dangling frontcourt help, then either Bledsoe or Dragic is nice asset. But if neither happen, that's a hella deep backcourt.


A friend pointed out that it might mean that the Suns get more involved in the Love sweepstakes with Bledsoe as their centerpiece.
   310. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 11, 2014 at 07:17 PM (#4749097)
I can't see that, not with Rubio still in Minny.
   311. bob gee Posted: July 11, 2014 at 07:19 PM (#4749098)
clutchfans is exploding right now. the most vocal posters there can't understand that houston (with bosh and parsons, minus lin and asik) would NOT be a shoo-in for championship this year. somehow that escapes most of them.

though i'm a lin fan, the bigger loss to houston is asik. i believe lin can be a legitimate all-star - but he's not, and you can find a bunch of guards duplicating his skills. asik is one of the top centers in the league and that's without having a good offensive game. he was starting to develop it (he fumbles a *lot* of lower passes) but they signed howard. and i feel that asik will be better than howard in 2016, maybe even this year.

so what happens if (when?) howard gets injured? they'll have a non-existent defensive frontline, and harden won't exactly help on d out on the perimeter.

i don't blame morey for going for a bigger star when the opportunity presents itself (ie. parsons, lin + pick for rondo) but even if they had gotten bosh, they'd have such a thin bench that there could be problems. and since howard is averse to pick and rolls when there's 2 defenders back, and mchale can't create an offensive OR defensive play OR allow younger players (d-mo, lin come to mind) to learn from mistakes and develop properly - or use proper time management on your stars (harden, parsons, howard)...there could be a lot of disgruntled rockets fans this season.

they'll blame bosh, but it's not his fault.
   312. Manny Coon Posted: July 11, 2014 at 07:19 PM (#4749099)
I can't see that, not with Rubio still in Minny.


A Rubio/Bledose backcourt would be terrible to watch shoot, but they would sure be able to dribble around and play defense.
   313. bob gee Posted: July 11, 2014 at 07:27 PM (#4749103)
312 - and 1 tapes galore!
   314. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 11, 2014 at 07:38 PM (#4749106)
From Paul Coro, the Republic's Suns writer:
The #Suns aren't signing Isaiah Thomas to deal Bledsoe or Ennis. Plan to use RFA rights on Bledsoe. Ennis, 19, can develop in Bakersfield.
First, I didn't realize Ennis was that young. Second, sounds like a decent plan.
   315. rr Posted: July 11, 2014 at 07:49 PM (#4749111)
BTW, the second year of Jordan Hill's deal is a team option, according to what I am reading.
   316. KronicFatigue Posted: July 11, 2014 at 08:04 PM (#4749115)
Why would Bosh resign with Miami? Was Lebron holding him back?
   317. GregD Posted: July 11, 2014 at 08:08 PM (#4749119)
Is Bosh now getting the max? That would have been reason to wait, right?
   318. rr Posted: July 11, 2014 at 08:08 PM (#4749120)
Supposedly he really likes living in Miami, and he is from Dallas, not Houston. No state income tax either place, a lot more money in Miami, and he already has two rings. And, I can see why he might prefer staying in the East and playing for Spoelstra rather than going to the West and playing for McHale.

Finally, while this may have been no factor for Bosh, Dwight Howard and James Harden do not strike me as being superfun guys to play with as NBA All-Stars go.
   319. rr Posted: July 11, 2014 at 08:09 PM (#4749121)
Yes, Bosh is getting 5/118.
   320. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: July 11, 2014 at 08:10 PM (#4749122)
Good deals for the Lakers. Lin makes the team better AND comes with a 1st round pick, something they're starving for. Hill is a bit pricey, but there's no such thing as a bad one year deal (which is what the deal can work out to be). Nothing bad so far, and I get to root for Linsanity to boot.
   321. rr Posted: July 11, 2014 at 08:11 PM (#4749124)
Nothing bad so far,


I am not down with a four-year deal for Swaggy.
   322. KronicFatigue Posted: July 11, 2014 at 08:17 PM (#4749129)
So Bosh's first choice was always Miami? He would take less money if Lebron stayed, or the max if he left. If that's the case, why tease Houston like that? Why have them trade away players for cap room? Because he needed a backup plan in case Riley stabbed him in the back. If he feared that, why is Miami his first choice? Seems like a terrible work environment.
   323. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 11, 2014 at 08:30 PM (#4749136)
the most vocal posters there can't understand that houston (with bosh and parsons, minus lin and asik) would NOT be a shoo-in for championship this year

If Morey had pulled off the Bosh move HOU would have been my easy title favorite going into the season.
   324. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: July 11, 2014 at 08:34 PM (#4749140)
I am not down with a four-year deal for Swaggy.
Oooh, I forgot about that. Yeah, that's not the best.
   325. Into the Void Posted: July 11, 2014 at 08:38 PM (#4749141)
If Morey had pulled off the Bosh move HOU would have been my easy title favorite going into the season.


I would say either the Thunder or Spurs, depending on which one of them signs Gasol.
   326. rr Posted: July 11, 2014 at 08:40 PM (#4749143)
322-

That may be what is going on, but my guess is that Bosh just changed his mind after Wade/Riley/Spoelstra talked to him, and looked at the money, and decided to stay. Lowe, Pelton and some others have made "asides" the last ten days to the effect that we need to remember that these guys are still guys, with friends/families/feelings/homes etc., as rich and famous as they are.
   327. rr Posted: July 11, 2014 at 08:45 PM (#4749147)
Bucks/Cavs in Summer League tonight. Pelton talks about the matchup everyone is waiting for:


kpelton Kevin Pelton
I don't know what you guys are watching but I'm here for the Nate Wolters-Matthew Dellavedova matchup.
   328. The District Attorney Posted: July 11, 2014 at 08:48 PM (#4749149)
If Morey had pulled off the Bosh move HOU would have been my easy title favorite going into the season.
Yeah, you're basically Miami (Harden << LeBron, but Howard >> current Wade) with what Miami never had -- a near-star fourth guy -- and Beverley is also a better PG fit than anyone the Heat ever had either. The bench would just have to be shooters and defenders; I would totally trust Morey to be able to identify some guys.

Why would the Rockets boards be preoccupied with that hypothetical, though?? They only have a couple of days to get something done here... you'd think that would be the more immediate concern. (Although really, the worst case scenario is basically returning last year's team that won 50-whatever games in the West.)

The Suns just do things because they're smart things to do. They'll figure it out. I really do wish LeBron had gone there.

The Knicks are not to be outdone... they bring back Cole Aldrich and release Lamar Odom. (This has to be it for Odom, right?) And Phil Jackson has great reasons why Pau should take $3M from them instead of the $10M+ he apparently is turning down from the Lakers.
we have what Pau needs: the United Nations. He's the ambassador for the United Nations. That's a platform. Pretty soon he'll be secretary for the United Nations.

Lots of "what LeBron means" pieces: Simmons, Lowe, Posnanski, Bethlehem Shoals, David Roth
   329. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 11, 2014 at 08:53 PM (#4749151)
(Although really, the worst case scenario is basically returning last year's team that won 50-whatever games in the West.)

Huh? They've lost Lin and Asik and given up (at least) 1 future pick. Seems like it's been a pretty terrible day.
   330. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 11, 2014 at 08:54 PM (#4749152)
Giannis, Jabari and Wiggins all look good in the first half. If Wiggins can just keep moving on the offensive end, LeBron is going to find him for a lot of easy buckets.
   331. The District Attorney Posted: July 11, 2014 at 09:04 PM (#4749155)
They've lost Lin and Asik
I don't think they mind. (Maybe they should -- e.g., if it's correct that Asik is better than Howard -- but I don't think they do.)

and given up (at least) 1 future pick.
That's of course never good. I certainly agree that Bosh was a great fit, and that they'd be in a lot better shape both next year and long-term. It's definitely not good for them to lose out on him. But it doesn't change the short-term fact that they didn't have him last year, and if they're willing to pay Parsons, can bring back a very similar team in 2014-15 to the one they had in 2013-14.

Now, if you want to go back further in time and argue that they essentially screwed up the poison pill strategy by not getting their money's worth out of the guys they got -- in other words, that they in fact ended up the ones poisoned by the pill -- I think there's one helluva case for that. But as things stood on July 11, 2014, I don't think they lost much, insofar as the moves that they did to make room for Bosh were moves that they wanted to make, and that it currently makes sense to make, either way.
   332. Maxwn Posted: July 11, 2014 at 09:05 PM (#4749158)
So Bosh's first choice was always Miami? He would take less money if Lebron stayed, or the max if he left. If that's the case, why tease Houston like that? Why have them trade away players for cap room? Because he needed a backup plan in case Riley stabbed him in the back. If he feared that, why is Miami his first choice? Seems like a terrible work environment.

See this is an overly complicated attempt to parse Bosh's behavior to me. Why would it have anything to do with protecting from Riley stabbing him in the back? That implies that Bosh and Riley would have already had an agreement on what would happen if Lebron left beforehand. The far simpler and more likely explanation is that Bosh did not know what the Heat would do if Lebron left so he therefore kept his options open while awaiting events. As it turned out, the Heat turned around and offered him a max so he took it. That seems to fit what happened without requiring stabbing in the back or nefarious leading on of Houston. Just a bunch of people making decisions that are all contingent on what a bunch of other people decide to do.
   333. Maxwn Posted: July 11, 2014 at 09:26 PM (#4749169)
Also RIP to the Big-3 era Heat. They were really entertaining and made great villains. They won a lot and were at times dominant but also lost enough, including in the finals, so that it never got too boring as many predicted and feared when they first got together. Overall, I say they were an A+ story arc for the last 4 years. Also good call by Lebron to break them up before they got stale and not trying to pull some gimmick like bringing back Dwade from the dead in some crappy sequel.
   334. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 11, 2014 at 09:44 PM (#4749179)
[333] Agreed. I'm trying to decide whether what we witnessed was closer to Hogan joining the NWO before returning in the Red and Yellow or The Rock needing to join The Corporation to win his first few titles before his face turn as the People's Champion.
   335. theboyqueen Posted: July 11, 2014 at 09:56 PM (#4749187)
Can someone explain what the Kings are doing with their Isaiah Thomas sign and trade? I get that Collison is (slightly) cheaper, but he's also a similar player only not nearly as good, and the totality of these moves don't seem to improve the team one bit. What could they be planning?
   336. Howie Menckel Posted: July 11, 2014 at 09:57 PM (#4749188)

to win the lottery next year?
   337. theboyqueen Posted: July 11, 2014 at 10:09 PM (#4749190)
I mean, what good is a 7 million dollar trade exception when you are at the cap?
   338. Maxwn Posted: July 11, 2014 at 10:25 PM (#4749199)
I mean, what good is a 7 million dollar trade exception when you are at the cap?

What good would it be if you weren't? The whole point of a trade exception is to allow teams to complete trades that leave them over the cap. So for a team at the cap the usefulness of a trade exception is that you can complete a trade where you take on salary, despite ending up over the cap. Unless I'm misunderstanding the question.
   339. theboyqueen Posted: July 11, 2014 at 10:36 PM (#4749207)
That is not the point of a trade exception. The trade exception is to used to allow trades that would otherwise not be allowed because salaries don't match. The cap still applies.
   340. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: July 11, 2014 at 10:46 PM (#4749213)
I don't think that that's true. Salaries not matching is only relevant because of the cap. If two teams are way under cap, they can trade a 10M player for a 2M player no problem (and the 2M team gets an 8M TPE). The TPE essentially counts as a fictitious contract that you can "trade" for a player with a matching salary, on top of the salary cap.
   341. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 11, 2014 at 11:03 PM (#4749224)
Also RIP to the Big-3 era Heat. They were really entertaining and made great villains. They won a lot and were at times dominant but also lost enough, including in the finals, so that it never got too boring as many predicted and feared when they first got together. Overall, I say they were an A+ story arc for the last 4 years.

Yeah, I've got to give the Heat credit for playing the part of the mustachioed villain perfectly, although now I hope they go 0-82 every year until Miami becomes the new Atlantis and sinks into the ocean.
   342. theboyqueen Posted: July 11, 2014 at 11:04 PM (#4749225)
Perhaps you guys are right...I must say the rules are very difficult for me to understand (what kind of committee came up with all these rules?), but the other issue is that the trade exceptions are only useful if you are trading a pick away for a player, and why the hell would the Kings be trading away draft picks?
   343. Quaker Posted: July 11, 2014 at 11:12 PM (#4749228)
So if Melo doesn't wind up in Chicago, am I foolish to think the odds of a Mia vs. Cle conference finals are pretty high?
   344. KronicFatigue Posted: July 11, 2014 at 11:17 PM (#4749231)
See this is an overly complicated attempt to parse Bosh's behavior to me. Why would it have anything to do with protecting from Riley stabbing him in the back? That implies that Bosh and Riley would have already had an agreement on what would happen if Lebron left beforehand. The far simpler and more likely explanation is that Bosh did not know what the Heat would do if Lebron left so he therefore kept his options open while awaiting events. As it turned out, the Heat turned around and offered him a max so he took it. That seems to fit what happened without requiring stabbing in the back or nefarious leading on of Houston. Just a bunch of people making decisions that are all contingent on what a bunch of other people decide to do.


I'm presuming Bosh and The Heat (Riley?) met at some point. Wouldn't Riley say "Listen, we want you here. Now of course, Lebron is the best player in the world, and if he wants more money we're going to give it to him. But we're hoping you'll take less to stay. Now we know Miami is less desirable if he leaves, so we're willing to offer you the max if he leaves".

Your version is actually more complicated than mine. Or at least more confusing to me. Why didn't Bosh know what Miami would do if Lebron left? Didn't he ask? Did Miami not know themselves? Did they not have a plan B? The world knew that Lebron could leave. The world speculated what the fallout would be. Miami wanted Bosh (with or without Lebron), Bosh wanted Miami (with or without Lebron), but they didn't know that about each other?

Doesn't make sense. Unless Bosh was more motivated by money and Houston's offer was a greater value than what Miami would offer him if Lebron stayed.
   345. theboyqueen Posted: July 11, 2014 at 11:18 PM (#4749232)
It seems the Kings are actually subject to the hard cap in their current configuration, so their trade exceptions are pretty well useless.
   346. rr Posted: July 11, 2014 at 11:26 PM (#4749237)
but they didn't know that about each other?


Maybe not until the reality of James leaving was actually staring them in the face. I personally believe Micky Arison when he says that he was "shocked" that James bailed. Riley, Arison, and Wade are guys who are used to winning, getting their way, and getting what they want. They have the shared narrative, the rings, the Miami scene/weather. I seriously doubt that they, and Bosh, thought, when it came down to it, that James would walk away from all that to go back to an economically depressed, cold-weather city that has been a punchline in American culture and American sports for 50 years, to play for a guy who called him a "coward" in public.

But he did.

Manny Coon seems to have nailed part of this: James is now a 30-year-old family man, and one of the Twitter buzz things was that James' wife really, really wanted to go back to Cleveland. I wrote that off, but I now think it was a real thing.
   347. Howie Menckel Posted: July 11, 2014 at 11:31 PM (#4749243)

I remember an NBA player who was very rich, his wife's family mooched off him, he went bankrupt - and still he stayed with her. ok, there's more than one.

yeah, not all of these guys are masters of their domain, in any occupation...
   348. The District Attorney Posted: July 11, 2014 at 11:48 PM (#4749257)
Woj sez Vince Carter to Memphis, $12M/3 yr
   349. Maxwn Posted: July 12, 2014 at 12:28 AM (#4749284)
I'm presuming Bosh and The Heat (Riley?) met at some point. Wouldn't Riley say "Listen, we want you here. Now of course, Lebron is the best player in the world, and if he wants more money we're going to give it to him. But we're hoping you'll take less to stay. Now we know Miami is less desirable if he leaves, so we're willing to offer you the max if he leaves".

Your version is actually more complicated than mine. Or at least more confusing to me. Why didn't Bosh know what Miami would do if Lebron left? Didn't he ask? Did Miami not know themselves? Did they not have a plan B? The world knew that Lebron could leave. The world speculated what the fallout would be. Miami wanted Bosh (with or without Lebron), Bosh wanted Miami (with or without Lebron), but they didn't know that about each other?

Doesn't make sense. Unless Bosh was more motivated by money and Houston's offer was a greater value than what Miami would offer him if Lebron stayed.


You are assuming that Bosh knew things and then asking why didn't he act in ways consistent with that knowledge. I am making no assumptions about what Bosh knew and observing that he acted like someone who wasn't sure how things were gonna go and was therefore keeping his options open. That leads me to suspect that he didn't know how things were gonna go and was therefore keeping his options open.

It's totally plausible to me that the scenario you present where Riley and Bosh meet and lay it all out and know each other's thoughts on this could have happened. I see no reason whatsoever to presume that it happened though. I can totally buy that it never happened because they all figured they'd sort it out once Lebron signed. Once that started to look dicey, Bosh figures maybe he should talk to Morey and see what his options are. And that explains his flirtation with Houston. He acted like a businessman faced with a decision involving millions of dollars whose options are dependent on the decisions of other people who may or may not have communicated anything in particular to him.

My guess is that if he and Riley met, they spoke in general terms without a specific agreement because they weren't to the part of the negotiations where they would get down to specifics. Without a signed contract or at least a serious verbal agreement, he would have been an idiot to act like anything other than what he was, a free agent with no contractual relationship to any NBA team.
   350. tshipman Posted: July 12, 2014 at 12:30 AM (#4749287)
First of all, good for LeBron James. The man who wrote that letter was confident, intelligent and mature. Without getting to psycho-analytical, he seems to be a unique sports figure. Can't remember anyone quite like him. I don't think he owed anything else to anyone else in Miami and kudos to him for realizing that.

Second of all, how much does it suck that this has worked out great for Dan Gilbert? We have a super-petty jerk who pouts when a business deal doesn't go his way, aggressively pushes for an ultra-hardline CBA, wins the lottery three years in a row and now looks like he's going to have a 60+ win team simply because LeBron missed his home town. Is there any way I can root for LeBron to win a championship that Gilbert somehow cannot take joy in?

Third of all, I'm fascinated to see if Bosh+Wade on Miami make the playoffs. It's at least possible that LeBron has been depressing those two players' value. Theoretically, you'd expect them to be at around 32 wins. I'm very curious to see if Bosh turns back into Toronto Bosh.
   351. theboyqueen Posted: July 12, 2014 at 12:38 AM (#4749292)
Theoretically, you'd expect them to be at around 32 wins. I'm very curious to see if Bosh turns back into Toronto Bosh.


The Toronto Bosh teams were basically 32 win teams every year. Of course, in this East, that may well make the playoffs.
   352. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: July 12, 2014 at 12:40 AM (#4749293)
Is there any way I can root for LeBron to win a championship that Gilbert somehow cannot take joy in?


Hook Gilbert up with a frequently operated on "personal assistant" who has a letter for a first name, tape their phone conversations and pray?

On a quasi-related note, no one can ever accuse Simmons of on-air vanity.
   353. Maxwn Posted: July 12, 2014 at 12:46 AM (#4749296)
Perhaps you guys are right...I must say the rules are very difficult for me to understand (what kind of committee came up with all these rules?), but the other issue is that the trade exceptions are only useful if you are trading a pick away for a player, and why the hell would the Kings be trading away draft picks?

This isn't true. You can use trade exceptions if you trade away some combination of cheaper players for some combination of more expensive players. The trade exception can make up the gap in the salaries.

It seems the Kings are actually subject to the hard cap in their current configuration, so their trade exceptions are pretty well useless.

This also doesn't seem right to me, though I don't know how to check for sure. The Kings look to have some space below the tax line in all the sources I can find, which would mean that the exception would still be useful even if they don't want to pay tax. They definitely don't appear to be at the apron which is the NBA version of the hard-cap. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but it would be surprising to me.

None of this is to say that what the Kings did is smart or anything like that. I have no opinion on that. But the exception they got still looks like a genuine asset to me. Whether they make anything of it is a different question.
   354. The District Attorney Posted: July 12, 2014 at 12:48 AM (#4749298)
It occurs to me that we shouldn't automatically assume that LeBron wants Wiggins traded for Love. The logic of The Letter -- I went away and matured, now I want to come back home and mentor the kids -- would suggest that, if he wants anyone on the team, it'd be the #1 overall pick whom people were calling "the next LeBron James" a year ago.
   355. greenback calls it soccer Posted: July 12, 2014 at 12:52 AM (#4749300)
Is there something to the "Gilbert is a jerk" thing besides the LBJ decision? I've read a couple of "What can be done for Detroit?" profiles implying he's one of the good guys, at least as far as rich guys go. He's done what he could to bring jobs to Detroit, which is a bit unusual for white people from Oakland County. I'm not interested in defending his response to the decision, but if sees himself as on a mission from God to restore the rust belt, then he's more a "complicated" person than a pure "jerk".
   356. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: July 12, 2014 at 01:30 AM (#4749311)
We have a super-petty jerk who pouts when a business deal doesn't go his way

Pfft. He spent five years acceding to someone's every demand -- from putting cronies on the payroll to rescheduling practice when it conflicted with His Highness's grandiose birthday festivities -- in an attempt to get him to stay, and the guy not only left, he did so while waving his middle finger in the air. Calling him a coward and a backstabber in the immediate aftermath is utterly tame, and four years on people are still pretending it was some kind of affront to human decency.
   357. RollingWave Posted: July 12, 2014 at 02:00 AM (#4749315)
Asik and Lin accounted for nearly 7 wins last year on the Rockets, they're not irreplacable in terms of the roles they were in (as both were underutilized in what they're best potential could be anyway.) but the major problem with Morey now is that most of those theoretically plausible replacements are already off the boards, and he only have 48 hours to make things happen , and to compound it all, he lost the 2 contract that would have facilitated most plausible upgrade of a roster trade. especially post Parsons salary match.

Things really blew up badly in Morey's face this time around, and I do think he tried to get way too cute here, opting to sub in the .230/.300/.520 power hitter over the .270/.350/.350 slap hitter in the bottom of the 9th with 2 outs and bases loaded only down one. he only needed a walk or single really to win this, but he opted for the home run, it's hard to really justify all this, especially the pulling the Jeremy Lin trade trigger without actually being totally sure Bosh was signing.

There is a legitimate chance they take a step backwards next year especially if he doesn't match Parsons, and then enter what could be Dwight's last season in a desperation mode. that would be a real waste of a good hand he had.
   358. rr Posted: July 12, 2014 at 02:29 AM (#4749317)
then he's more a "complicated" person than a pure "jerk".


I don't think anyone has really suggested otherwise. The point, as tshipman explains, is that Gilbert's basketball endeavors have gone exceedingly well in some ways through no skill of his own--three #1s, plus the #1 for James, and now he is getting James back even though his team has been perpetually mismanaged. No one is saying that Gilbert should be put in jail or that he has not helped the Rust Belt; people are saying that he acted like an idiot in a key moment, has done some other obnoxious things, and is not anybody's choice for this kind of break in his NBA activities. I actually think the two things are tied together--Gilbert freaked out about James in part because he saw what James did and how he did it as pissing on the Rust Belt.

Calling him a coward and a backstabber in the immediate aftermath is utterly tame,


In the big picture, sure. But:

1. People really, really don't like being called "cowards" in any context. It's a pretty big deal.
2. Gilbert is the team owner and Mr. Rust Belt, not some guy blowing off steam in a sports bar. He put his silly crap on-line and left it up for years. It was weak, chickenshit, dumb, and petty.
   359. RollingWave Posted: July 12, 2014 at 03:32 AM (#4749324)
Also, 4 years for Nick Young? *4* ####### YEARS FOR NICK ####### YOUNG?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Hey, I guess I should be happy since this totally means Lin's getting a 4/40 deal after next year
   360. MikeOberly Posted: July 12, 2014 at 05:46 AM (#4749327)
Swagginess has its price.
   361. Scott Lange Posted: July 12, 2014 at 07:18 AM (#4749331)
(Morey) only needed a walk or single really to win this, but he opted for the home run


If the goal is to maximize average expected wins and/or profitability, then I agree. But I think its plain that Morey is focused on winning a championship. The Rockets are/were in a position were one more star player would make a huge, non-linear contribution to their chances of winning it all. Just to pull numbers out of the air, let's say standing pat with last year's team would have yielded a 3% chance of winning the title. Adding a "safe" role player, the type certain to be available, maybe makes that 4%. But making the Parsons/Lin/Asik decisions is high-risk, high-reward- sends you all the way to 20% if it you land Bosh, drops you to 2% if it backfires as it has. If your measuring stick is championships, you've got to take that risk. I'm just bummed as a basketball fan that it didn't work out.
   362. Kurt Posted: July 12, 2014 at 09:54 AM (#4749359)
1. People really, really don't like being called "cowards" in any context. It's a pretty big deal.


I agree, which make me wonder if the Pat Riley "you stay together, if you have the guts" stuff backfired.
   363. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 12, 2014 at 10:12 AM (#4749360)
Adrian Wojnarowski ?@WojYahooNBA 7h
Pau Gasol, Chicago working to complete an agreement, league sources tell Yahoo Sports.


Which leads to...

Frank Isola ?@FisolaNYDN 7h
That means Carmelo back to Knicks


Or not...

K.C. Johnson ?@KCJHoop 30m
As Bulls work to finalize deal w/ Gasol, can't fully know if Melo is done. Gasol on MLE and Melo S&T does work but longshot. Closure today?


K.C. Johnson ?@KCJHoop 19m
Will say Gasol turning down $10M from Lakers and $11M from Hawks make MLE seem longshot.


MLE for 3 years is $16mil. Bulls might be only team offering that (I think OKC can, but the full MLE might push them into the tax, not sure about Spurs). If the Bulls can S&T Boozer etc for Melo and give Gasol the MLE, I'd be pretty damn happy. It would mean no Mirotic, but he could then go to NYC in the S&T perhaps. Or:

K.C. Johnson ?@KCJHoop 20m
As @EricPincus said, Bulls can get to $9M for Gasol S&T w/ Dunleavy and non-guaranteeds. Leaves Boozer in play for S&T or amnesty/cap space


The Bulls can play some tricks with the roster to stay above the cap after amnestying Boozer, so that's also possible.
   364. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 12, 2014 at 10:20 AM (#4749361)
I'm presuming Bosh and The Heat (Riley?) met at some point. Wouldn't Riley say "Listen, we want you here. Now of course, Lebron is the best player in the world, and if he wants more money we're going to give it to him. But we're hoping you'll take less to stay. Now we know Miami is less desirable if he leaves, so we're willing to offer you the max if he leaves".

You're overthinking it. There was talk of Bosh taking a cut, so the Heat could have offered Bosh 4yr anywhere from $70ishmil to $90ishmil (4 year max). Once LeBron left, Houston got to about 4/$88 (a little under, less than the max, and a lesser 4yr max than the Heat can offer) and the Heat upped their offer to the 5/$118. Before yesterday there was no 5 year max offer to Bosh as far as we know. He took it, end of story.

Is there something to the "Gilbert is a jerk" thing besides the LBJ decision?

I think there's some stuff about his Detroit investments, and some of his Cleve stuff. Maybe the usual rich billionaire guy ####. But he's also a liar (or doesn't know how the internet works).

So if Melo doesn't wind up in Chicago, am I foolish to think the odds of a Mia vs. Cle conference finals are pretty high?

Yes. I think best case for Miami is the 3 seed depending on how they fill out the roster (they're not passing Cleve or Ind) but could also easily finish behind Chi, Was, Bkn, Tor and Cha too. So maybe 1/8 in the first round? The Heat need to sign a quality wing (supposedly they're going hard at Deng), but still have to fill out their bench (and they're now much less attractive to guys like Allen or Birdman, etc). Wade has to play more (he can't take 1/3 of the season off) while not getting hurt/regressing any more. A lot would have to go right for them and wrong for other teams for them to get to the ECF. I see them maybe as a 5/6 seed with a shot at winning a tough first round series but being an easy 2nd round out.
   365. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 12, 2014 at 10:37 AM (#4749366)
Perhaps you guys are right...I must say the rules are very difficult for me to understand (what kind of committee came up with all these rules?), but the other issue is that the trade exceptions are only useful if you are trading a pick away for a player, and why the hell would the Kings be trading away draft picks?

Not true at all. The exemption is good for 1 full calendar year. Kings have a lot to work with after this season and this could still be useful this year. Kings could simply take a contract someone doesn't want without giving up anything of substance (like a ridiculously protected 2nd round pick or rights to some guy never coming to the states).
   366. PJ Martinez Posted: July 12, 2014 at 10:45 AM (#4749371)
Assuming Gasol goes to the Bulls, what does that look like? How do he and Noah fit together?
   367. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 12, 2014 at 10:54 AM (#4749372)
I think they fit together beautifully. Assuming Gibson stays around (some people are thinking some crazy S&T with him for Melo is possible - though not sure the Knicks wants his contract on their books), the 3 of them can all play with each other and would take up most of the 4/5 minutes. 2 great passing bigs, lots of pick and rolls and curls and what not. Gasol doesn't have to do too much - they would count on him getting stuff on his own in the post, but it can be a fun combo depending on what Gasol has left.

On it's own, it doesn't automatically elevate the Bulls back to contenders - still counting way too much on Rose's health - but I can dream about a scenario where everything breaks their way and they're the best in a Love-less Cavs East.
   368. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: July 12, 2014 at 11:30 AM (#4749389)
So, exactly how much in dollars would keeping Mike Miller have cost the Miami Heat last season? Am I correct in reading that they were able to keep him under the cap, but just would've had to pay tax if they did?

EDIT - I'm lazy to ask this. I looked it up, guess it was about $17 million.
   369. Howie Menckel Posted: July 12, 2014 at 11:35 AM (#4749390)

re Gilbert and the letter and the link:

"There was some remnant link from the NBA site that someone discovered a few days ago and when our people were notified, it was immediately killed. The concept that we had the letter up for four years and just took it down is absurd and flat-out wrong."

not sure I believe him, obviously, but has there been a counterclaim by ESPN?
   370. Howie Menckel Posted: July 12, 2014 at 12:04 PM (#4749394)
Sandomir raises interesting questions:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/12/sports/basketball/role-of-sports-illustrated-in-lebron-jamess-announcement-raises-journalistic-questions.html?_r=0

"James got the byline for his first-person account (or was it an open letter, an essay or a news release?), while Lee Jenkins, a top writer for the magazine who got the scoop, received an “as told to” credit.

News value aside, the approach cast Sports Illustrated more as a public-relations ally of James than as the strong journalistic standard-bearer it has been for decades.

And while James’s words may have been all that the sports world wanted to hear, the magazine should have pressed for a story that carried more journalistic heft."

........

The best part of the business is when it's perfectly clear that all you're willing to offer is the fairness from your work that has been evident over time - nothing else. And then you get the story anyway.

This one is really interesting on a lot of journalistic levels. As far as I know, Jenkins has only written flattering things about James - and that's ok. for one, I don't think he's written much about him, and there's no need to automatically throw in something negative just because. It does feel like Jenkins positioned himself as Switzerland while ESPN and Yahoo fire nuclear weapons at each other - which is shrewd tactically and not at all unethical.

And at this level, hoping to land a mega-scoop if you've sometimes knocked the source is unrealistic - the amount of power is too overwhelming and too Machiavellian. Not sure we'll ever really know if the James camp went this way because they "trusted" Jenkins - or if they absolutely dictated the terms of engagement. SI would hardly say so if they did. I prefer to think that Jenkins - very well-respected in the business - pulled a Capt. Sullenberger and landed this scoop on the Hudson River without the plane - ethics - sinking.

Jenkins will have another piece out for the magazine; that may shed a little more light but I still don't think we'll ever know the exact details (nature of the beast, of course).
   371. GregD Posted: July 12, 2014 at 12:05 PM (#4749396)
EDIT - I'm lazy to ask this. I looked it up, guess it was about $17 million.
for want of a nail...

If that was the crucial issue, then how much money did Arison cost himself by saving $17 million? It has to be in the hundreds of millions, right?

To be fair, 1) LeBron also was likely pissed at the failure to use the MLE and the dealing of draft picks, and those would have added a fair amount more to the bill, 2) none of those things would have likely made a difference against the Super-Spurs who showed up for the Finals, and 3) the absolute fact of Wade's aging was apparent to LeBron.

So maybe none of that made a difference, and Arison did the right thing to gather his winnings while he had them.
   372. bob gee Posted: July 12, 2014 at 12:23 PM (#4749400)
369/howie - here's the original link:
http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/gilbert_letter_100708.html

you can see that's been up on archive.org for a long time.

however (and i hate to give gilbert benefit of the doubt) - here's a link to the news stories on the cavs page from july 26, 2010:
https://web.archive.org/web/20100726132757/http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/

and you can see "gm statement" on july 8 (none of gilbert's), then the sign and trade, then 2 statements from gilbert on july 11 and july 12.

but in the upper right - on recent 'news' stories - is:
(7/10)Cavaliers Complete Sign-and-Trade Deal with...
(7/9)The King Has Left the Building
(7/8)A Letter From Cavaliers Majority Owner Dan ...

i'm guessing now, but once gilbert's letter went out and he got fined, they pulled the link in the 'news' section - but the original letter stayed up there.


   373. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: July 12, 2014 at 12:24 PM (#4749401)
Craig Calcaterra posted a good piece this morning on Sandomir's article that I agree with. I think Sandomir's missing the point, and I'd be very surprised if the NYT has never done something like this anyway.

http://craigcalcaterra.tumblr.com/post/91542310207/sports-illustrated-gets-modern-media-gets-criticized
   374. The District Attorney Posted: July 12, 2014 at 12:42 PM (#4749406)
Calcaterra's take on Sandomir's take (EDIT: nerve tonic to #373). I definitely don't feel like I understand all the issues here, but I'm immensely skeptical of what I'm interpreting as Sandomir's claim. Writing it as a personal essay doesn't only make it more powerful PR (and I assume that's Sandomir's concern here, that the paper is being used as LeBron's PR mouthpiece.) It also makes it far more powerful as an actual piece of writing! If it's written in 3rd person -- "James says he has matured", etc. etc. -- a lot fewer people read the article, because it's not as interesting to read! I think if ethics demand that we have to reject a much more compelling way to convey the exact same information, then ethics are an ass.

Re: Gilbert's letter: Obviously it was "up." You could look at it. Maybe Gilbert is saying that all the links to it were supposed to be taken down, so you could only find it if you already knew the URL. That does sound plausible (although it of course prompts the question, why not just delete it altogether?) (EDIT: Jeez, coke to #372 also!)

Re: Bosh:
Wouldn't Riley say [to Bosh] "... we know Miami is less desirable if [LeBron] leaves, so we're willing to offer you the max if he leaves".
What particular motivation does either side have to insist on this conversation? Bosh only needs to have his exit strategy pre-arranged if he's worried about the inconvenience caused to his prospective suitors... which I'm sure he is a little bit... but not really. And Riley definitely doesn't want to promise that, in a hypothetical situation, he'll pay more money than he might be required to. Riley might well tell Bosh "if LeBron leaves, check with us, we'll top any offer." But why should he specifically offer the max, until he knows that that's the only way to keep the guy?

Basically, the party potentially getting screwed (in this case, Houston) isn't a party to the negotiations between the people potentially screwing them, and thus can't avoid getting potentially screwed.

Re: luxury tax: It'll be funny -- I mean, different people are different, but it'll still be funny -- if letting Mike Miller go is enough to convince LeBron that Miami is cheap, but letting James Harden go (not to mention lugging around Kendrick Perkins's corpse) is just fine with Kevin Durant and he re-signs with OKC.
   375. GregD Posted: July 12, 2014 at 12:58 PM (#4749412)
If Durant doesn't win a title, I suspect he will use his free agency to go to a team that is willing to pay a big tax hit. It was one thing to re-sign with OK City when he was young and expected to win in the future. But I would guess he will have other priorities next time.
   376. Howie Menckel Posted: July 12, 2014 at 01:16 PM (#4749417)

by the way, also a lotta chatter about Chris Sheridan's "scoop" several days earlier. He basically staked his reputation - he left AP to do his own blog - on the fact of not only LeBron going to Cleveland, but having already decided days before that SI announcement ran. Will be interesting to see if the James camp disputes that scenario.

as for the letter, all that matters is if a visitor to the site is going to notice the "letter" when he goes to the main page or a frequently-viewed secondary page. am still not clear on that part, but nice detective work here.
   377. GregD Posted: July 12, 2014 at 01:21 PM (#4749419)
Woj adds to Isola saying Melo is hours away from signing with Knicks. Expect Broussard's confirmation 1 hour after the press conference...
   378. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 12, 2014 at 01:24 PM (#4749421)
If Woj is saying it, I believe it. Oh well.

I hope the Bulls don't S&T Dunleavy for Boozer. There's still things the Bulls could do, but unless there's another wing out there to replace him (and I'm not talking about Hinrich/Augustin), he's more than worth his deal.
   379. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 12, 2014 at 01:57 PM (#4749439)
Moses, do you think the Bulls target Love now? Short of Wiggins, I think Mirotic plus is the best the Wolves will get, and with Gasol on board the Bulls can afford to give up Gibson, who would be a good fit with Pek, though Wolves could use a wing like Butler more.
   380. tshipman Posted: July 12, 2014 at 02:00 PM (#4749443)
Moses, do you think the Bulls target Love now? Short of Wiggins, I think Mirotic plus is the best the Wolves will get, and with Gasol on board the Bulls can afford to give up Gibson, who would be a good fit with Pek, though Wolves could use a wing like Butler more.


I have to believe that the Bulls had targeted Love from the word go, but couldn't get the deal to work. Love is probably a better fit for that team than Melo.
   381. rr Posted: July 12, 2014 at 02:09 PM (#4749445)
I agree with Scott Lange on Morey. I can see why Houston fans are frustrated, but Morey wants a banner. If the Bosh ploy had worked, Houston would have been SA's #1 challenger IMO, slightly ahead of even OKC and the Clippers. They were not getting that much out of Asik, and Lin is a fun, interesting player with some skills--but he is not a guy that you can't replace. Bosh is still IMO among the Top 20-30 or so players in the NBA and fit Houston's needs perfectly. I think Morey's gamble was worth it, and I also respect Dallas' chess move in making the offer to Parsons.
   382. Howie Menckel Posted: July 12, 2014 at 02:10 PM (#4749446)
Frank is the man

FisolaNYDN 1:59pm via Twitter for iPhone

Carmelo has notified all teams, including the Bulls, that he is returning to the Knicks.

FisolaNYDN 2:11pm via Twitter Web Client

I'm pretty sure Carmelo will take less than $129 million. Not saying it will be five years $100 but it won't be $129 million
   383. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 12, 2014 at 02:10 PM (#4749447)
Maybe. Plenty of reports said that while the Bulls were interested in Love, but were focusing on Melo (they seem to struggle with multi-tasking). I'd love to see them try again, but I think signing Gasol means they're less likely to make another push. So I'm not sure the Bulls made their final/best offer for Love. The ones we saw weren't that great (I can't recall it exactly at the moment, something like Gibson, Snell and their picks from the last draft. If they didn't offer Mirotic before, maybe they will now.
   384. bunyon Posted: July 12, 2014 at 02:11 PM (#4749448)
Isn't the way the letter was published only a problem if the author isn't clearly identified. I mean, papers publish self-serving columns all the time. On much more important matters. It was clearly written by James. So...what's the big deal? Should the NYT not publish columns by politicians?
   385. rr Posted: July 12, 2014 at 02:18 PM (#4749452)
It never occurred to me that there was any peripheral journalistic issue with James' letter. Big-time jocks have been doing "as told to" pieces of writing, including books, for literally one hundred years and SI has done it before. I assumed that James told Jenkins what he wanted to say, Jenkins shaped it linguistically and structurally, James read it, and said "OK" and that was that. I am not seeing any problem, and someone was going to get the James story first. I assume that ESPN suits are mildly pissed off that it wasn't them, given how they have covered James, but that's the way it goes.
   386. Howie Menckel Posted: July 12, 2014 at 02:27 PM (#4749454)
SI says story was written by Jenkins off interview in Vegas, but using LeBron's words. So they gave LeBron the byline. But the questions really aren't as much about that - it's more, "What were the ground rules for getting the interview and publishing the story?"

Normally, the James camp should not have seen the finished product before you, dear readers, have, even off a 1-on-1 interview. And in the odd case of them getting some sort of 'first look,' it's a major issue if they had any right to remove paragraph they didn't like. you'd think that would come less into play in a "semi-first person" piece, but sometimes players say things and then handlers may not like "how it sounds." if SI surrendered that, then they shouldn't even have bothered sending Jenkins to Vegas in the first place. just cut n paste what LeBron sends them and leave the journalist/journalism out of it.

this was not an Op-Ed submitted, and note that such material goes to a different journalism section, not News or Sports or Business. SI could have just served as the vessel, I guess, but they chose another route. I think. That's where the questions have come in.

   387. Scott Lange Posted: July 12, 2014 at 02:40 PM (#4749457)
What difference does it make whether you call it an "Op-Ed" or not? Its a first-person piece by a non-journalist; isn't it obvious that it contains the subjective opinions of the author? And, as bunyon said, the NYT and others publish columns by politicians all the time. Hell, they published A Plea for Caution from Russia by Vladimir V. Putin. And SI can't publish a first-person article by a basketball player?
   388. rr Posted: July 12, 2014 at 02:46 PM (#4749460)
What were the ground rules for getting the interview and publishing the story?"


This is your field, but I am not seeing it. This wasn't a "story"--it was a public statement by LeBron James, that a SI guy helped him with. I suppose you can argue that James should have hired/asked some guy to do it and had people put it up on the net for him, but it is not as if there is any misrepresentation going on and given the economics of digital journalism, I can't blame SI for going for what I see as a harmless click-fest for their site.

There is a "story" here--how James picked Cleveland, what he said to Riley, Wade, Bosh, and Arison; when he decided, how he dealt with Gilbert etc. But the "I'm Coming Home" letter isn't that story IMO.
   389. Howie Menckel Posted: July 12, 2014 at 03:23 PM (#4749467)

"And SI can't publish a first-person article by a basketball player?"

they could, but they didn't. they did have a writer piece together quotes from an interview, though, and list James as the author.

"But the "I'm Coming Home" letter isn't that story IMO."

not to the layman, no.
   390. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: July 12, 2014 at 03:27 PM (#4749468)

Normally, the James camp should not have seen the finished product before you, dear readers, have, even off a 1-on-1 interview.


Is this no longer common? The famous Daily Telegraph interview of Wilhelm I was reviewed by Wilhelm and supposedly by the Foreign Minister Bülow before publication (though the latter later claimed he hadn't personally seen it).
   391. greenback calls it soccer Posted: July 12, 2014 at 03:30 PM (#4749470)
they could, but they didn't. they did have a writer piece together quotes from an interview, though, and list James as the author.

So what? Maybe it's demeaning for a writer to devote himself solely to the articulation of a single individual's thoughts rather than his own, but that's not a journalistic issue.

ETA: There's a dirty secret in journalism that much of what they do is PR. Professional sports franchises don't give nice seats at the big games to Big Media out of respect to journalistic ethics or some such nonsense.
   392. bunyon Posted: July 12, 2014 at 03:51 PM (#4749482)
My point was that the byline was James'. This isn't a proper journalistic "story". It's a letter to the editor that the paper had one of their writer's help with. I've had a letter to the editor published and a guy at the paper corrected a grammatical mistake. Basically, I would see your point if they passed this off as a "scoop" their writer got. But they didn't. No one is fooled into thinking this is anything but PR. Because the author was not a SI writer.
   393. GregD Posted: July 12, 2014 at 04:20 PM (#4749507)
I am a doomsayer about journalistic standards, but this didn't bother me at all for the reasons that bunyon mentioned.
   394. Howie Menckel Posted: July 12, 2014 at 04:21 PM (#4749509)
"No one is fooled into thinking this is anything but PR. Because the author was not a SI writer."

The "as told to" guy who put the piece together is an SI writer. And if all it is is PR, then that doesn't bring any glory to SI within the profession (again, Jenkins has another piece coming out so let's give it an "incomplete" so far.) I have granted that it doesn't matter to the regular Joe.

................

"There's a dirty secret in journalism that much of what they do is PR. Professional sports franchises don't give nice seats at the big games to Big Media out of respect to journalistic ethics or some such nonsense."

the RESULT of what journalists do parallels PR in some cases - a good story may create more interest in the team, for instance. and sports teams don't give out "nice seats" anymore. In the 1990s, NBA writers sat courtside and could sometime hear players and coaches in timeout huddles, and easily could hear what expletive a player yelled to get a T. now they sell those seats for thousands of dollars and stick the media in the nosebleed seats in many arenas. the connection for fans to being able to know how the game really works from the "inside," transmitted by the media, continues to erode. same with the amount of time the writers get with the players, in many instances.

......

"Normally, the James camp should not have seen the finished product before you, dear readers, have, even off a 1-on-1 interview." "Is this no longer common? The famous Daily Telegraph ....."

The British press has very little in common with American press. For years, lesbian WTA Tour players - out and otherwise - had to keep pushing aside nosy questions at post-match press conferences. Over here, they got zero such questions. they pay top dollar for interviews, over here even the TV stations aren't supposed to (but don't trust 'em). For all the Qs raised re the SI piece, I don't think for a minute that they paid for the privilege.

   395. bunyon Posted: July 12, 2014 at 04:31 PM (#4749514)
Personally, I'd rather they pay for interviews and ask hard questions than maintain some tenuous ethical standard. It's your line of work and I trust there is a vast amount I don't know about journalism but this just doesn't bother me. Nor will it make me question SI stories in the future (any more than I already do).

But I did see a BBC interview with Lindsay Lohan this morning and Lohan tries to give whimsical dismissive answers to some questions and the reporter has none of it. More of that, please. (not with Lohan necessarily but all around).
   396. GregD Posted: July 12, 2014 at 04:34 PM (#4749519)
   397. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 12, 2014 at 04:41 PM (#4749525)
I'm not a reporter, but from my sideline seat I can't see how the James/Jenkins article is different from any of thousands of ghostwritten "autobiographies" attributed to athletes and coaches, going all the way back to Pitching in a Pinch. It looks like exactly the same thing to me: Writer extensively interviews the subject, he writes the book in first person, the athlete reads it, maybe requests some modifications, eventually he OK's it and it goes to publication. What am I missing that makes this essay different?
   398. Howie Menckel Posted: July 12, 2014 at 05:02 PM (#4749534)

well, journalism is different from book writing, basically. American journalists don't allow sources to "approve" or "disapprove" anything in their stories. Their loyalty is supposed to be to the reader, not the subject.
   399. bunyon Posted: July 12, 2014 at 05:08 PM (#4749538)
My point, Howie, is that it isn't Jenkins' story. Maybe that's crappy for Jenkins, I don't know. But it's James' piece. I'd agree 100% with you if this appeared under Jenkins' byline.

I may be way off base about that, I have no idea. But that's where I (and I suspect most others) are coming from.

You seem to think this is a Jenkins story that he gave right of approval on. Whereas I see it as an op-ed that, had SI not wanted it, would have gone elsewhere.
   400. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 12, 2014 at 05:26 PM (#4749547)
Howie's undoubtedly spent a lot longer toiling in the newspaper vineyards than my 19 years of doing so (which came to an end some 11 1/2 years ago, alas), & ... yeah, what he said. Which is a bit lazy of me, I know, but I've got to get to the downtown library before it closes.
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