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Tuesday, July 08, 2014

OT: Monthly NBA Thread- July 2014

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: German aggression and Israeli aggression of entirely different types.

andrewberg Posted: July 08, 2014 at 08:17 PM | 1081 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nba, off topic

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   401. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 12, 2014 at 05:27 PM (#4749552)
Howie: I apologize if this seems crass, but I don't think the distinction you're enforcing matters to anyone but capital-J Journalists who take themselves too seriously. Like every concept, journalistic integrity *can* be carried too far, beyond which point it begins to resemble hubris.

LeBron James is the originator of the essay; Lee Jenkins made it readable; the thoughts presented therein are LeBron's, not Jenkins'. "By LeBron James, as told to Lee Jenkins" seems like exactly the right way to represent it, and if there are Unwritten Rules that forbid it, then perhaps it's the rules that are the problem, not that specific practice.

I believe your objection is that Jenkins should not have written this for LeBron without interviewing every source he could find in an effort to produce a balanced story; do I understand you correctly? Please correct me if I don't.
   402. greenback calls it soccer Posted: July 12, 2014 at 05:39 PM (#4749556)
Their loyalty is supposed to be to the reader, not the subject.

There always has been a conflict of interest. Any writer with the least bit of self-awareness recognizes that offending the wrong people can destroy his access, which endangers his career.

That doesn't even get to the fact that this was clearly labeled as a first person (read: subjective and biased) account. Articulating LeBron's world view is the whole damn point of the article/essay/letter. Believe it or not, readers want that first person account, and a good writer can aid with that expression. Most readers are adult enough to understand the need for a bull #### filter with this kind of document (well, maybe not the people that are still kvetching about Dan Gilbert's letter).
   403. The District Attorney Posted: July 12, 2014 at 06:03 PM (#4749568)
LeBron's got an opt-out after next year. Woo, doing this again in a few months if not sooner!

Also, Ariza to HOU $32M/4 yr (slightly frontloaded), and Pau to CHI (source: Pau Gasol's twitter).
   404. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: July 12, 2014 at 06:06 PM (#4749570)
Does Ariza to Houston mean they're not matching the parsons deal?
   405. GregD Posted: July 12, 2014 at 06:07 PM (#4749571)
Pau to CHI (source: Pau Gasol's twitter).
Has Broussard confirmed?
   406. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 12, 2014 at 06:25 PM (#4749577)
Also, Ariza to HOU $32M/4 yr (slightly frontloaded), and Pau to CHI (source: Pau Gasol's twitter).
Given the circumstances, best possible outcome for Chicago. A necessary move for the Wizards. They can't spend that money on Ariza, and they really need to find out of Otto Porter can play or not. (I'm leaning towards "not".)
   407. Howie Menckel Posted: July 12, 2014 at 06:48 PM (#4749581)
"You seem to think this is a Jenkins story that he gave right of approval on."

I don't know if he did; but he shouldn't.

"I believe your objection is that Jenkins should not have written this for LeBron without interviewing every source he could find in an effort to produce a balanced story; do I understand you correctly? Please correct me if I don't."

no, the objection is to the "for LeBron" part. Let LeBron hire a famous novelist if he wants someone to dress up his words; he can afford it. Or just run what LeBron feeds you.

"Howie: I apologize if this seems crass, but I don't think the distinction you're enforcing matters to anyone but capital-J Journalists who take themselves too seriously."

We have agreed that the distinction doesn't matter to people outside the business. But it matters to those inside.

"There always has been a conflict of interest. Any writer with the least bit of self-awareness recognizes that offending the wrong people can destroy his access, which endangers his career."

One of the hoariest, tiredest cliches on BBTF. Try reading Frank Isola's (yes, friend of mine) Twitter feed re the Knicks, who he has covered for almost 20 years for the Daily News. He sets the franchise higher-ups on fire on an almost daily basis, and his career has become so endangered as a result that he's doing a lot of national TV these days. He got more (only) access to Carmelo this week than anyone, because a player can recognize who's got stones and who doesn't. People respect stones. And when the Knicks try to freeze him out, he makes them look like the fools that they are. Look at how many scoops Woj (ditto) gets, and notice how many stories he writes that subjects wince at. Too bad. Is it true? That's what matters in the end. Woj has stones, too.

Look, this ain't tiddlywinks. If someone can't succeed in this job unless they kiss people's asses, they suck at their job and should try another field.

   408. tshipman Posted: July 12, 2014 at 06:49 PM (#4749583)
Does Ariza to Houston mean they're not matching the parsons deal?


Man, if so, really seems like Morey has outsmarted himself this year. He's lost Asik, Lin and Parsons and in return he's gained .... Trevor Ariza?!?!
   409. GregD Posted: July 12, 2014 at 07:10 PM (#4749588)
Woj says Houston may still match Parsons.

It still doesn't make it a very good offseason for Houston, I agree.
   410. rr Posted: July 12, 2014 at 07:23 PM (#4749592)
We have agreed that the distinction doesn't matter to people outside the business. But it matters to those inside.


Perhaps, but I still don't see it as a valid criticism as you have presented it here. You haven't made a good case, and I think the reason for that is that you are not seeing that your sacksy buddy Isola and Jenkins have different kinds of jobs. Jenkins' role at SI is to write features on the NBA, not bust the balls of Knicks' management on Twitter and get the intertubes and TV outlets fired up. I had never heard of Isola until yesterday, but working for a local daily and doing what Jenkins does are different skillsets.
   411. rr Posted: July 12, 2014 at 07:36 PM (#4749595)
with this kind of document (well, maybe not the people that are still kvetching about Dan Gilbert's letter).


People complaining about Gilbert not getting a fair shake are like all the guys here who complain about PC rhetoric cramping their style. Gilbert went out of his way to do something really pointless and stupid, and he did it in a very public way. Considering that he is a well-known superrich guy who self-presents as being a statesman, etc. it was especially weak.

James' coming back doesn't erase it.
   412. Howie Menckel Posted: July 12, 2014 at 08:01 PM (#4749601)
"Perhaps, but I still don't see it as a valid criticism as you have presented it here. You haven't made a good case, and I think the reason for that is that you are not seeing that your sacksy buddy Isola and Jenkins have different kinds of jobs. Jenkins' role at SI is to write features on the NBA, not bust the balls of Knicks' management on Twitter and get the intertubes and TV outlets fired up. I had never heard of Isola until yesterday, but working for a local daily and doing what Jenkins does are different skillsets."

wait, apples and oranges.

the "stones" comment was about this notion that writers of any sort have to serve lord and master sources, which is silly. it's complicated sometimes, but most occupations are.

Jenkins' job is to write features, yes. the inside baseball question has been what his job was in this case. it's just a bit curious in the industry. I have repeatedly accepted the fact that "nobody cares" outside an insular world. but that's true of a lot of BBTF threads, isn't it? also, Isola is on ESPN all the time as well, TV and Radio (don't feel bad, I never listen to or watch their crap anymore, either!). and Lee is more the "niche" guy - 34K followers vs 78K for Isola on Twitter, for instance, just as a reference to awareness of sports fanatics and not speaking to quality per se.

   413. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 12, 2014 at 08:13 PM (#4749602)
no, the objection is to the "for LeBron" part. Let LeBron hire a famous novelist if he wants someone to dress up his words; he can afford it. Or just run what LeBron feeds you.


Gotta agree. James apparently is a ####### cottage -- well, more like a mansion, I guess -- industry all by himself. Why doesn't his payroll include someone who can craft his apparently not-so-golden prose into something publishable as the equivalent of an actual op-ed?
   414. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 12, 2014 at 08:16 PM (#4749604)
LeBron James is the originator of the essay; Lee Jenkins made it readable; the thoughts presented therein are LeBron's, not Jenkins'. "By LeBron James, as told to Lee Jenkins" seems like exactly the right way to represent it,

Sort of like "Ball Four, by Jim Bouton, as told to Leonard Schecter". Virtually no athlete on Earth could ever write an essay as good as what LeBron did yesterday without some sort of editorial assistance. That's not a knock on the athletes; that's just reality.

---------------------------------

Gilbert went out of his way to do something really pointless and stupid, and he did it in a very public way.

As did LeBron in his original "Decision". They've both grown up since then, for the good of both themselves and the NBA as a whole.
   415. tshipman Posted: July 12, 2014 at 08:27 PM (#4749607)
Gilbert went out of his way to do something really pointless and stupid, and he did it in a very public way.

As did LeBron in his original "Decision". They've both grown up since then, for the good of both themselves and the NBA as a whole.


First of all, you're talking about a 25 year old professional athlete and a 52 year old man. I should ####### hope that at 48, when Dan Gilbert wrote that comic-sans masterpiece, he was "grown up."

Second of all, there's zero sign that Gilbert has "grown up." LeBron forgave him. That doesn't mean he grew up. Here's Gilbert from February of THIS YEAR:
I would've reworded the language in The Letter, but I don't regret sending a letter out to our fan base. People forget the letter was not to LeBron, it was to our fan base. If I had to do it again, for sure, I would've reworded several parts of it. But I think it definitely needed a strong statement from me at that time. I keep a couple binders on my desk and I have a binder of the responses to The Letter from the people of Cleveland. There's thousands, maybe 2,000 from every facet of life, from CEOs of big companies to hand-written letters from 94-year-old ladies, from street sweepers to policemen and firemen. The response went way beyond. For some reason, it appealed to this generational Cleveland thing. If you want to talk about books, someone should publish all the responses to The Letter. It was like, ‘We're from Cleveland and we've been rejected.'


That sound like someone who grew up? Maybe he "grew up" when he realized that it would be worth nearly a billion dollars to him to apologize to LeBron. Maybe he "grew up" when he finished stamping his feat and insisting on an ultra hard-line CBA that screwed the players.
   416. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 12, 2014 at 08:29 PM (#4749608)
Sort of like "Ball Four, by Jim Bouton, as told to Leonard Schecter". Virtually no athlete on Earth could ever write an essay as good as what LeBron did yesterday without some sort of editorial assistance. That's not a knock on the athletes; that's just reality.


It is indeed. And journalists wouldn't, AFAIK, kick at all if Jenkins had written an "as told to" book with James. It's different, though, when the venue is a magazine or newspaper (unless, of course, what's being presented is an excerpt from such a book) or their website. Maybe it shouldn't be, as has been suggested in this thread, but nevertheless it is.

I dunno. I haven't given it nearly as much thought as Howie, but maybe part of the problem here is that we're talking Sports Illustrated here, which certainly isn't perfect but does have a rather solid reputation. If something like this had appeared on ESPN's website or in their mag, I suppose it'd be just another case of lightweight entertainment guys being lightweight entertainment guys.
   417. rr Posted: July 12, 2014 at 08:37 PM (#4749611)
As did LeBron in his original "Decision".


Sure. But Gilbert is uh, a lot older than James is, so I think he should have been "grown up" back in 2010. You overreacted to the Heat/James thing,comparing it to steroid use, because you saw it as big guys (NBA stars, Miami, Riley) giving the finger to the little guy (Cleveland fans) and you backed Gilbert as being the guy sticking up for that group. But you had it wrong. In his NBA life, Gilbert is a meddlesome jackass owner who has done a very crappy job with his team, a hardcore laborhawk, and a small-market whiner. When he was under pressure back in 2010, he acted like a complete clown, and he was 48 years old then. He doesn't get a pass.

I have my own biases about Gilbert because of his role in the Paul Veto, and Gilbert has done a lot for Detroit, which is more important than the NBA. Gilbert and James should have some positive impact on that part of the country, off the floor, and that is a good thing.

But that is all a different thing than Gilbert's performance/behavior as the Cavs' owner. And in that area, he has mostly been an ass and a failure, saved only by luck.
   418. rr Posted: July 12, 2014 at 08:39 PM (#4749613)
Cokes to shipman.
   419. rr Posted: July 12, 2014 at 08:39 PM (#4749614)
Gef, Howie:

Thanks for the input from pros in the field.
   420. rr Posted: July 12, 2014 at 08:57 PM (#4749618)
Pau on Twitter:

Pau Gasol @paugasol · 3h
It hasn't been easy. After meditating it a lot I've chosen to play with the Chicago Bulls. Looking forward to this new chapter of my career
   421. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 12, 2014 at 09:14 PM (#4749624)
Gef, Howie:

Thanks for the input from pros in the field.


As indicated on the previous page, I'd put a lot more stock in Howie's thoughts than I would mine, though again in this case they coincide. I guess it's like any business (as I think has been alluded to) -- principles & standards taken for granted might seem baffling to other people, & possibly for good reason.

I'm sort of reminded of a mystery I read just last month. It was rocking along nicely until we reached the one-third point, at which point over the course of 10 pages:

(1) a small-city newspaperman who's a target in a murder plot is allowed to keep covering the story about said plot & all related developments; he's the managing editor of a 5-reporter staff, so obviously someone else could've stepped in.

(2) said character, after an attempt on his life, files his story on that incident straight to the newspaper's website for public consumption without anyone else looking at the copy -- not the publisher, not a lawyer, not nobody.

(3) said character, we learn, has long had a paid informant in police headquarters.

A later plot twist mitigates some of the above nonsense a tad ... but only just.

Jesus. The writer in question apparently has written well over a dozen mysteries (this is the first time I've read him), but apparently his impressions of journalism are taken from very bad TV programs or movies.

Since no one who read the manuscript (assuming anyone did; publishing houses do still seem to employ people who call themselves "editors," though sometimes I wonder ...) seems to have had any problems with any of this, maybe I'm overreacting, though. I hope not.
   422. Howie Menckel Posted: July 12, 2014 at 09:15 PM (#4749625)

enjoying the discussion, robinred, as I do the zillion others here about other fields....
   423. Kurt Posted: July 12, 2014 at 11:18 PM (#4749643)
Ariza to Houston - 8/32.

On the plus side, Otto Porter hasn't *proven* that he *can't* play.

Edit: whoops, missed 403-406. Carry on.
   424. The District Attorney Posted: July 13, 2014 at 12:02 AM (#4749647)
@ESPNSteinLine

ESPN has learned that Pierce will sign a two-year deal with the Wizards at the mid-level exception with a player option entering Year 2
   425. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: July 13, 2014 at 12:32 AM (#4749651)

It still doesn't make it a very good offseason for Houston, I agree.


I can't wait until Dwight starts pouting and demands another trade.
   426. rr Posted: July 13, 2014 at 01:17 AM (#4749658)
Parsons and Howard have the same agent, and Parsons was supposedly the "lead recruiter" for Houston. So, Howard will probably actually be unhappy that Parsons (presumably) won't be there.

Ariza has always been a favorite of mine, but I probably would not want him on a four-year deal for his age 29-32 seasons.
   427. RollingWave Posted: July 13, 2014 at 02:24 AM (#4749664)
If they simply trade Ariza for Lin/ Asik that's not a bad move, though probably more of a neutral move than a positive one. they still have serious problem defending against elite 4s and their shot creation now when Harden's off will be a very big problem.

   428. Howie Menckel Posted: July 13, 2014 at 07:38 AM (#4749682)

this below is definitely part of the equation. ESPN compromises itself constantly, and obviously. Jenkins is to Stephen A as Picasso is to .... well, you get the picture:

"maybe part of the problem here is that we're talking Sports Illustrated here, which certainly isn't perfect but does have a rather solid reputation. If something like this had appeared on ESPN's website or in their mag, I suppose it'd be just another case of lightweight entertainment guys being lightweight entertainment guys."

   429. The District Attorney Posted: July 13, 2014 at 12:05 PM (#4749694)
I'm understanding that the Rockets can and will still match on Parsons... I guess we'll know in 12 hours.

It's great for next year... Ariza is a helluva sixth man. But long-term, I think they're locking themselves into a team that won't win the championship. On the other hand, it's tough to tell them to let Parsons go when we have no particular reason to think that a third superstar is ever walking through that door! I don't envy Morey.

I get the impression Lance Stephenson was a couple million dollars more expensive than Rockets capology would allow, which is a shame, because I would have loved to see that. It might sound crazy, because you've got two gunners in Stephenson and Harden. But I think both of those guys are much better (and more willing) playmakers than people think. And it addresses the problem mentioned in #427 of what happens when Harden's out. Also, I think the team can kind of use a yapping guy with an attitude, as indeed Beverley was often given credit for bringing.

So it looks like Brooklyn is losing the game of small forward musical chairs. Reports are that they might just pull back and try to get back under the luxury tax repeater penalty line. It's hilarious that the Yankees -- coming off a 17-year-long dynasty, and having nearly relegated the city's other team into oblivion -- ultimately thought they couldn't afford to have a "bridge year" for that purpose, but the Nets might do it.

Anthony Morrow to OKC for $10M/3 yr, great deal for them.
   430. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: July 13, 2014 at 01:07 PM (#4749696)
I keep on typing "greg monroe" into Twitter, and keep on getting back absolutely nothing of interest.
   431. tshipman Posted: July 13, 2014 at 02:05 PM (#4749697)
If they simply trade Ariza for Lin/ Asik that's not a bad move, though probably more of a neutral move than a positive one.


?????

Ariza the last year has benefited to an extreme amount from having John Wall. 95% of his 3p attempts are assisted and 40% of them are from the corner. Only 21% of Parsons' 3p attempts were from the corner last year.
   432. bob gee Posted: July 13, 2014 at 02:26 PM (#4749700)
429 - i agree with you about stevenson being a good fit for the rox. my only concern for harden as a playmaker is when they give him the ball at 25 feet and spread everyone out, i don't think he's good there. when the ball winds its way to him at 15-18 feet (ie. driving point guard, hockey pass around, or to dwight and back out) i think he's great at making the right decision.

i (obviously) think a huge part of houston's problems stem from mchale as head coach.

the other problem - now - is that before the offseason began, morey said something about they were going to get a big star, or something like that. they're obviously not getting that 3rd star. so if you bring parsons back, you have:

ariza - asik - lin - (whoever else they have to clear out - d'mo? t. jones?).

and that looks disappointing compared to what he stated they were going to do.
   433. JJ1986 Posted: July 13, 2014 at 02:34 PM (#4749701)
I think it would be insane for Houston not to bring back Parsons. Matching him might be worse for their contract situation going forward, but this is a team built to win now who will have gotten significantly worse if they lose him. Even now, they have no depth at center and point guard, but those situations you can fix after the season has started. It's much harder to fix having Patrick Beverely (or Trevor Ariza) as your third best player.
   434. bunyon Posted: July 13, 2014 at 06:25 PM (#4749787)
Gef, Howie:

Thanks for the input from pros in the field.


My sentiments as well, even if they (you) haven't convinced me yet.

I think one thing might be that you hold SI in higher esteem than I do. They just don't seem that different from ESPN, though all I know is their websites. Haven't read either magazine in years.

The other is I don't see where it would be okay if James wanted to hire Jenkins to write an "as told to" book and then SI could run excerpts. That seems to be a weird work around. I'd think the line either is: it's okay for our employees to do something like this or it isn't.

I wouldn't say "no one cares" (even if I may have written that). I do care about good journalism and integrity and think journalists do a very important job. I just don't see how this transgresses, as it spells out plainly what the piece is and who wrote it. To me, it seems like full disclosure covers a lot of what otherwise would be sins.
   435. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 13, 2014 at 06:34 PM (#4749791)
Adrian Wojnarowski ?@WojYahooNBA 11m
Yahoo Sources: Houston declines offer sheet on Chandler Parsons, clearing way for him to sign with Dallas. http://yhoo.it/1myBeU2


Bad offseason for the Rockets.
   436. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 13, 2014 at 06:37 PM (#4749792)
Nikola Mirotic ?@nikolamirotic12 24m
I am very happy and excited to announce that next season I will be playing with the @chicagobulls . Today I fulfill a dream. #BullsNation


Bulls potentially have a great frontcourt. The backcourt* leaves a bit to be desired, even if Rose is himself again (not likely). Bulls really need Snell to take a huge step forward and Butler to rebound otherwise their guard/wing play will be their downfall.

I think the Bulls did some interesting things, and if creative offensively, they could be better than awful on that side of the ball.

*
K.C. Johnson @KCJHoop · 2h
Kirk Hinrich will sign with the Bulls later this week, according to a source.
   437. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 13, 2014 at 06:41 PM (#4749795)
Not sure I see it here, but Deng to MIA for 2/$20mil. Decent deal for them, but obviously a huge dropoff. He turned down 3/$30mil from the Bulls before they dealt him last year, looking like a mistake.
   438. Spivey Posted: July 13, 2014 at 07:14 PM (#4749797)
East is very, very wide open right now unless Cleveland makes another big move.

I really don't like what Houston has done. But then, IMO they were a contender last year. I see where they're coming from with each individual move, but I can't imagine Howard or Harden are happy that they seem to be punting this season a little bit. They'll still be good, but they've gotten worse.
   439. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 13, 2014 at 09:57 PM (#4749822)
I don't see the East as wide open at all. As long as LeBron's healthy for the playoffs, the Cavaliers will likely cruise.

I might be off base here, but... I would be inclined to trade Wiggins for Love, but I wouldn't be inclined to add anything of value to the offer beyond that. Wiggins may not be a franchise guy, but he has the potential to be a very good player.
   440. MikeOberly Posted: July 13, 2014 at 10:12 PM (#4749824)
The Wiggins/ Love thing is tough, and I'm not even that high on Wiggins. If Lebron was 23, it'd be a lot easier to just go with Wiggins....but I think Love and Lebron under Blatt (who I am really high on) could be a devastating team.

I have to laugh at some of the online Cavs fans (yeah, I know the really annoying ones are the bandwagon jumpers who don't give a crap unless Lebron is there)...they talk about how their roster is full of trade piece nuggets that anyone should kiss their feet to take -- the same crappy roster that couldn't make the playoffs in the east. I don't dislike the Cavs, I live in Ohio, so I sort of follow them casually, but that kind of entitled fan is just so annoying.

If I know Love will sign a contract there, I'd probably deal Wiggins for him if I were the Cavs. But hey, according to Cavs fans, they don't have to -- they have 'all the leverage', and Minny should be happy to take whatever roster flotsam they shovel down their throat. Bleh.
   441. theboyqueen Posted: July 13, 2014 at 10:15 PM (#4749826)
I don't know -- in terms of developing potential, there can't be a much better situation for Wiggins than to play with Lebron.

I really don't see much competition for Cleveland in the east at all. What's the second best team? Pacers? Raptors? Wizards?

Seems like the Cavs need some shooters. Maybe they should go after Jimmer or something.
   442. MikeOberly Posted: July 13, 2014 at 10:19 PM (#4749829)
If they get Mike Miller and /or Ray Allen, they should be okay for shooters. I just think of how they'd look right now with Giannas or even Noel on that team rather than Bennett. 20/20 hindsight is nice, obviously.
   443. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 13, 2014 at 11:32 PM (#4749847)
I would rather have Trevor Ariza at 8 per than Parsons at 16 per. I think Ariza brings more to the table defensively than Parsons and that Harden will create a lot of quality looks for Ariza to help keep his percentages up. This has still been an awful offseason for HOU.
   444. Kurt Posted: July 13, 2014 at 11:42 PM (#4749848)
wrong thread
   445. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: July 14, 2014 at 12:08 AM (#4749856)
I would rather have Trevor Ariza at 8 per than Parsons at 16 per. I think Ariza brings more to the table defensively than Parsons and that Harden will create a lot of quality looks for Ariza to help keep his percentages up. This has still been an awful offseason for HOU.


This is basically where I am.

I don't see the East as wide open at all. As long as LeBron's healthy for the playoffs, the Cavaliers will likely cruise.


I think this is crazy. Rookie coach (whatever you may think of Blatt's potential -- I really like the move myself -- learning curve is a thing), Irving is, uh, not a great defender, Wiggins is a young rookie, Varejao is always injured. This is a team that went 33-49 last year (in the East!) and they're losing a half season of Deng and some other useful pieces (half-season of Hawes, Jack).

I'm not going to be surprised if they come out of the East, but right now I think it's pretty wide open including some combination of Miami, Chicago, Cleveland, and Indiana, and I like Washington as a dark horse who could gel, Atlanta is getting Horford back (is he expected to be at 100% to start the season?), Toronto could easily build on last season with a young team and Lowry returning.

On the flip side, I think Brooklyn might lose 50 games.
   446. theboyqueen Posted: July 14, 2014 at 12:31 AM (#4749857)
I think this is crazy. Rookie coach (whatever you may think of Blatt's potential -- I really like the move myself -- learning curve is a thing), Irving is, uh, not a great defender, Wiggins is a young rookie, Varejao is always injured. This is a team that went 33-49 last year (in the East!) and they're losing a half season of Deng and some other useful pieces (half-season of Hawes, Jack).


It's a team that's a hell of a lot better than the crap Lebron dragged to the championship his first go-round in Cleveland, and Lebron is a better player now than he was then. The competition in the East is no better now than it was then, and possibly worse.
   447. tshipman Posted: July 14, 2014 at 01:08 AM (#4749859)
It's a team that's a hell of a lot better than the crap Lebron dragged to the championship his first go-round in Cleveland, and Lebron is a better player now than he was then.


I don't know that I agree with either half of that statement.

I would rather have Trevor Ariza at 16 per than Parsons at 16 per. I think Ariza brings more to the table defensively than Parsons and that Harden will create a lot of quality looks for Ariza to help keep his percentages up. This has still been an awful offseason for HOU.


While I agree that Parsons is way overpriced at 16* per, Ariza has (IMO) as likely a chance to be replacement level as he does to be above average, maybe less. In the last four years, he has one year (the most recent) where he was above average. Personally, I'd rather have the cap room.
Still, I think everyone can agree that this was a brutal, brutal offseason for Morey. He gave up Lin, Asik and Parsons and received ... Trevor Ariza in return. Not even Trevor Ariza + salary cap space, just Trevor Ariza.

***

Cleveland has to trade for Love, don't they? I think that Minnesota has more leverage. If they'll take Wiggins and not much else (Tristan Thompson?), then I make that deal all day long if I'm Cleveland. Wiggins doesn't have an NBA 3p shot (edit:) yet and plays the same position as LeBron.

*[edit: originally I put 8 there for no good reason]
   448. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: July 14, 2014 at 01:17 AM (#4749860)
8 per is pretty much what an average player makes though. The salary cap is about 64M, if you figure each team has about 8 people in its regular rotation and the rest are cheap then 8M per year is about average.
   449. cmd600 Posted: July 14, 2014 at 02:29 AM (#4749864)
I've read a couple of "What can be done for Detroit?" profiles implying he's one of the good guys, at least as far as rich guys go. He's done what he could to bring jobs to Detroit


Puff pieces. Gilbert fits the description of a snake oil salesman to a T. I'm more familiar with the "development" he's brought to Cleveland than Detroit, but its a bunch of BS that simply reorganizes the money from the pockets of other businesses to his. It's a lot like when teams claim stadiums will bring business downtown.

Of all the reasons Ive had to find more enjoyable things to do over the winter than root for the Cavs, he's number one with a bullet. He didnt deserve Lebron coming back.
   450. rr Posted: July 14, 2014 at 03:23 AM (#4749866)
My sentiments as well, even if they (you) haven't convinced me yet.

They didn't completely convince me, either, but I think BTF should have more focus on knowledge base and less on "look how awesome my argumentation and snarking skills are" on a lot of topics, so their input was welcome, as was cmd600's on Gilbert.

   451. rr Posted: July 14, 2014 at 03:43 AM (#4749867)
Miami is apparently bringing back Birdman at 2/10 and Chalmers at 2/8.
   452. bunyon Posted: July 14, 2014 at 05:36 AM (#4749870)
@450: Absolutely. I'm not convinced. I'm happy to acknowledge that in a tie (if I can presume to call it that) in the argument that the benefit of the doubt goes to the expert(s).

I'm not convinced; doesn't mean I'm right. I'm just trying to see how it is they see it the way they do. It may well be that that isn't something that can just be simply communicated in a message board.
   453. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 14, 2014 at 10:37 AM (#4749933)
FWIW, Isola has come up a few times in these threrads (recently, when he was the source of Anthony will stay in NY rumors, but more notably in an expose of how paranoid the Knicks can be (how they treat Isola was a big part of the story)).

I'm okay with the Jenkins working with LBJ piece (which I thought was good) - bunyon sums my position up well with "To me, it seems like full disclosure covers a lot of what otherwise would be sins," but I do see Howie's point.

***

Mirotic terms were pretty reasonable, I thought.

When robinred goes to burn down Dan Gilbert's house, I'll bring the kindling - he's one of my least favorite NBA owners.

Not keen on some of these Detroit moves (like getting Caron Butler) - this might be why you don't have dual coach/GMs very often.
   454. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 14, 2014 at 10:40 AM (#4749936)
I really don't see much competition for Cleveland in the east at all. What's the second best team? Pacers? Raptors? Wizards?

To know exactly where the Pacers fit, we need to see where Lance ends up. There don't seem to be many great landing spots for him (Charlotte? Houston on a discount?), so he might end up back in Indy by default. I haven't seen any Hibbert rumors yet, so they might be rolling back virtually the same team. They'll be great defensively, so-so offensively and really hoping George takes another step/becomes more consistent. They'll be in the mix for the top seed and will be a tough playoff opponent.

Toronto should be at least as good as last year. They can get some more development from Jonas/DeRozan. I see no reason for Lowry to regress, so how much you like them depends on how much you like most of the other, now more expensive, role players.

Wizards have a high ceiling, if Beal and Wall keep improving. Pierce is an interesting fit, and a lot depends on how much he has left, but their offense is going to look different with him (hopefully he doesn't slow them down too much). Nene and Gortat, when healthy, are quite the front court, but there isn't a lot of depth. I still question Wittman as a coach, so the Wizards might have quite a range between best and worst case scenarios.

Charlotte can be a dark horse, especially if they go after Lance (I have no idea if they've been linked to him, but they have that unused Hayward money laying around). I think Miami is rebounding nicely, but they haven't really "fixed" last year's holes, not to mention that one major downgrade. They could still be a really good defensive team, but they're going to struggle offensively especially when Wade's out/off. I don't know exactly, but they've used most of their cap room so there isn't a lot more they can add at this point. Brooklyn is fascinating, but could be decent if Lopez/Williams are healthy (or like AS said, they could lose 50 - ok, maybe not that much in this conference).

Homer alert and all, but the biggest wildcard, by far, is the Bulls. If (huge, huge, huge if) Rose is Rose, the Bulls can win the regular season by 10+ games. The Bulls can potentially go 10 deep, they might have the best frontcourt in the league, and they have a plethora of shooters. The buzzword around here is that the Bulls lack "shot creators" but they do have a bunch of above average passers and if they get creative enough offensively (quite frankly, that my biggest question about Thibs this season) they could have an above average offensive to go with their great defense. Whether that's good enough to win 3 playoff series is TBD. Thibs should really be studying the Spurs offense (actually, everyone should; and Thibs should also take a page from Pop's PT handbook), cause while the personnel is not the same or equivalent the Bulls could make a decent pass at trying to duplicate some of the Spurs' principles. All of this hinges on 2 very fragile and apparently moody knees, so even at my most optimistic I'm not counting on or expecting this.

The Cavs, while good, don't look quite great to me yet. They should be good offensively, though like others have pointed out, they could use some more shooting (and more willing passing). But I think they're really going to struggle defensively, regardless of whether or not they have Love. They don't seem to project as a good rebounding team, but they are super athletic so they can be a deadly transition team. They have a bigger room for error, what with the greatest player in the world and all, but it might be a transition year or two until they turn into world beaters (and by that time, hopefully LeBron isn't starting to wear down).
   455. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 14, 2014 at 10:44 AM (#4749940)
I don't think one can realistically plan around having Derrick Rose on the court, at this point.

I still think LeBron by himself makes his team the best in the East. If they add Love it makes it no contest. They're not good enough to stand much chance against the Western champion, though.
   456. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 14, 2014 at 10:45 AM (#4749941)
Mirotic terms were pretty reasonable, I thought.

I'm waiting to see exactly how it breaks down, but signing Mirotic/Gasol with the cap space created by amnestying Boozer is a big upgrade and pretty good use of that money. I'm not super happy with Hinrich getting the room exception, as any other adds (a 3rd PG - Sessions? or another athlete wing or another C) would have to be minimums. At least the Bulls are safely under the tax, so there's no excuse for not fielding a full roster this year.
   457. GregD Posted: July 14, 2014 at 10:45 AM (#4749942)
But I think they're really going to struggle defensively, regardless of whether or not they have Love.
This is why picking Bennett over Noel really hurts them. Noel is going to get pushed around A LOT, but he is a legit shot blocker--arguably better than Davis. A team with LeBron and Love and Irving could afford a weak offensive center who ran around and blocked shots. I don't know what Bennett gives them though maybe he'll be traded anyway.
   458. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 14, 2014 at 10:55 AM (#4749949)
I don't think one can realistically plan around having Derrick Rose on the court, at this point.

Plan, hope, pray, doesn't matter the word. He's taking up a third of their cap. If he's there, they're great. If he's not, they're not. Not much else they can about it.

This is why picking Bennett over Noel really hurts them. Noel is going to get pushed around A LOT, but he is a legit shot blocker--arguably better than Davis. A team with LeBron and Love and Irving could afford a weak offensive center who ran around and blocked shots. I don't know what Bennett gives them though maybe he'll be traded anyway.

Great point. Noel on that team would be scary and address a lot of my concerns.
   459. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 14, 2014 at 11:33 AM (#4749977)
I view the East much as Moses does in [453]. Little disappointed at his oversight on the Knicks as a top contender in the conference though. I'm going to assume he hit submit before finishing his thoughts.
   460. Booey Posted: July 14, 2014 at 11:41 AM (#4749981)
I still think LeBron by himself makes his team the best in the East. If they add Love it makes it no contest. They're not good enough to stand much chance against the Western champion, though.


That's pretty much my POV too. Last time LeBron was trying to drag the Cavs to a title by himself, there were at least two other legit contenders in the East to give him fits (Boston and Orlando), even if the overall quality of the conference was still pretty weak. There isn't anyone else in the East now as good as those two were with prime Howard and the KG/Pierce/Allen trio.*

* Unless everything breaks right for the Bulls, but as others have noted above, the chances of that happening are iffy.
   461. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 14, 2014 at 11:46 AM (#4749986)
Marc Stein @ESPNSteinLine · 2h
As we just discussed on @SportsCenter, Rockets didn't match on C-Parsons because they wanted flexibility to keep chasing starry targets


Marc Stein @ESPNSteinLine · 2h
So look for Rockets to re-enter trade game for longtime Houston target Rajon Rondo as well as try to work their way into mix for Kevin Love


Not sure how the Rockets have anywhere enough assets to get Love. No idea what the C's would want for Rondo.
   462. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 14, 2014 at 11:55 AM (#4749999)
Morey must be under either a "you MUST get a superstar this offseason or else" mandate or a "championship right now or you're fired" mandate from ownership, right?
   463. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 14, 2014 at 11:59 AM (#4750003)
I view the East much as Moses does in [453]. Little disappointed at his oversight on the Knicks as a top contender in the conference though. I'm going to assume he hit submit before finishing his thoughts.
Well done. I actually made an audible sound expressing amusement at the conveyed humor.
   464. steagles Posted: July 14, 2014 at 12:02 PM (#4750008)
raptors: i think they can be decent, but i'm not a fan of derozan and i don't think ross is good enough right now. i like lowry and valanciunas a ton and lou/vazquez/johnson/patterson/johnson are good role players, but i don't think derozan is good enough to be counted on as a primary scorer.

wiz: i think they're gonna have some defensive problems on the perimeter. beal and wall are both great athletes, but they're kind of undersized, and 2014 pierce is just about the least athletic wing in the NBA. they're gonna have to go through (or at least against) guys like lebron and george and melo and if that's their lineup, they're gonna get eaten alive. i do think beal and wall make them a really tough matchup for any team that lacks size or athleticism at guard. those guys are jets.

horcats: i don't see it. i think losing mcboberts will hurt them, and while they have a lot of interesting young players, that franchise has also shown a complete inability to develop interesting young players. if they can fix that, they could be really good, but i'll have to see it before i'll believe it.

bulls: i love what they've done. i don't think gasol is a great fit, but adding gasol, mirotic and mcbuckets is a pretty damn good offseason, imo. noah/gibson/gasol/mirotic up front, butler/dunleavy/mcbuckets/snell on the wing, and rose at PG is a really good looking roster. hinrich is awful, but in the last few years chicago has gotten great guard play out of cj watson, john lucas, nate robinson and dj augustin, so even if rose isn't rose, i think they could find someone at some point who can make things work.

heat: i like what they've done. i think granger is toast, but mcboberts, deng and napier are solid additions. add birdman and chalmers coming back, plus ennis maybe being decent, and that's not a terrible roster.

hawks: i've never liked their roster. i still don't.

bucks: knight/antentokounmpo/parker/henson/sanders should be a great starting lineup. but it won't be. at least not this year.
   465. andrewberg Posted: July 14, 2014 at 12:04 PM (#4750010)
Lots of teams doing interesting stuff and many with intriguing moves yet to be made:

Houston- As mentioned, things have not broken their way so far. They have historically been willing to take big swings and misses, but it is more notable now that they are 2/3 of the way to a championship-caliber roster rather than just accumulating assets. I think a few people mentioned that not matching on Parsons is a way to maintain some flexibility for other moves. I see it as a short-term step back with the long-term focus still on gaining a third star (which they apparently think Parsons is not). Maybe that means they get back in the Love sweepstakes, maybe it places them in line for a run at Rondo. I suspect their offseason is not yet finished.

Detroit- The stereotypical knock on having a coach make personnel decisions is that he will try to win immediately and not take the immediate pain that comes with building slowly. Signing DJ Augustin, Caron Butler, and Aaron Gray are exactly the types of moves that fit into that category. None of them has any upside at this point. I imagine SVG is still shopping Smith around the league, but what is the best case scenario for the team he has in place now or could reasonable get by the start of next season? What is the point of these short-term moves?

Chicago- Now they have Noah, Gasol, Mirotic, Gibson, and Boozer under contract up front. It seems like that probably takes them out of the running for Love, but Gasol is a solid consolation prize for a team that seems very conservative with its roster building. Still not sure how those PF minutes shake out. Seems like there should be another move to follow.

Sacramento- No idea why they let Thomas walk. None. Maybe they still have eyes for Rondo but it's hard to see how they are going to get him.

Lakers- I see no world in which that Jordan Hill contract is a good idea. Four years for Swaggy P also seems way too long. I thought they brought guys in last year simply because they would take short deals that would keep the cap clear. Why sign them long now?

Phoenix- McDonough said something about running PNRs on both sides of the floor. They now have four guys who are functional PGs- two right handed and two left handed. It makes me wonder if that is an intentional plan. It's certainly not something I have seen teams intentionally do when building a roster before- unless that is why Zeke got Z-Bo and Curry to man the opposite blocks.

   466. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 14, 2014 at 12:06 PM (#4750012)
Would Miami have been wiser to tank it than to assemble a respectable team that will get a high-ish seed but won't go past the conference finals at very maximum? I suppose that's not really much of an option for them, not with Wade still around.

Also important to note is that if--God forbid--LeBron gets hurt, the East becomes a free-for-all and almost everyone is a contender. A contender for the honor of getting annihilated in the Finals, but still.
   467. steagles Posted: July 14, 2014 at 12:10 PM (#4750018)
Would Miami have been wiser to tank it than to assemble a respectable team that will get a high-ish seed but won't go past the conference finals at very maximum? I suppose that's not really much of an option for them, not with Wade still around.
nope. the cavs own miami's pick this year so even if they won the lottery, they won't benefit from it.
   468. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 14, 2014 at 12:10 PM (#4750021)
I'm pretty certain the pick is top-ten protected.
   469. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 14, 2014 at 12:22 PM (#4750036)
nope. the cavs own miami's pick this year so even if they won the lottery, they won't benefit from it.

I agree, and would add not sure those "fans" are in for a long rebuild. The pick is top 10 protected though, and some protection next year but totally unprotected in 2 years.

Chicago- Now they have Noah, Gasol, Mirotic, Gibson, and Boozer under contract up front. It seems like that probably takes them out of the running for Love, but Gasol is a solid consolation prize for a team that seems very conservative with its roster building. Still not sure how those PF minutes shake out. Seems like there should be another move to follow.

Boozer is going to be amnestied (they don't have cap room to sign Gasol/Mirotic otherwise). I imagine something like Noah 32/Gasol 28/Gibson 28/ Mirotic 12 - maybe some uber-big lineups with Gibson/Mirotic seeing some time at the 3. There'll also be injuries to Noah/Gasol, so that will be fluid. The Bulls have told Mirotic he's not getting moved as a condition of signing him (and he can't be traded for X number of days after signing). I'm positive they're out of the Love market.

i don't think gasol is a great fit

I love the fit. Gasol and Noah rotating between high and low post. PnR's with both. Gasol will post up more than Boozer (he pretty much never posted up the last 2 years). Him and Noah whipping passes around. I'm looking forward to them together.
   470. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 14, 2014 at 12:23 PM (#4750040)
Seriously, I did forget about the Hawks. If Horford is healthy, no reason they won't be in the same range as the Wiz/Raps/Hornets/Nets/Heat.
   471. andrewberg Posted: July 14, 2014 at 12:34 PM (#4750047)
Gasol is a fit everywhere.
   472. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: July 14, 2014 at 12:41 PM (#4750056)
I really, really like the Bulls' offseason. I also proceed under the assumption that Derrick Rose will never play basketball again but getting Mirotic and Gasol for, combined, half of what Melo cost is a great move -- from a cap standpoint I'd rather have those guys at 10M than Melo at 20. But I know others here are more positive on Melo as a basketball player.

I think if Rose miraculously returns from the dead they are as good as any team in the West but I wouldn't be surprised if they were already the best team in the East.

If Rajon Rondo gets traded to Houston I give it about a 25% chance that he'll punch James Harden in the face at some point.
   473. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 14, 2014 at 12:44 PM (#4750060)
I agree, and would add not sure those "fans" are in for a long rebuild. The pick is top 10 protected though, and some protection next year but totally unprotected in 2 years.


I expect those "fans" are already gone and ain't coming back regardless.
   474. billyshears Posted: July 14, 2014 at 01:09 PM (#4750066)
Basketball considerations aside, I think the psychological impact of going from a team with Lebron James to a team without Lebron James is going to be significant.
   475. theboyqueen Posted: July 14, 2014 at 01:30 PM (#4750072)
Rajon Rondo was a pretty great player in the Gary Payton mold for a few years but at this point I would rather have Isaiah Thomas straight up. I would be very wary of trading anything of value for him. If Boston thought Rondo was any good they would just keep him wouldn't they? It's not like he's old.
   476. Fourth True Outcome Posted: July 14, 2014 at 02:25 PM (#4750100)
If Boston thought Rondo was any good they would just keep him wouldn't they? It's not like he's old.

It's hard to gauge how much Boston wants to hold onto Rondo, though. He has one year left on his contract for 13m, after which he has stated that he wants to get paid. Even if Boston thinks he's the bee's knees, given where they are as a team it makes sense to see what assets you could get for flipping him now unless you think he's definitely well worth 20m per year. Add to that the fact that Danny Ainge would at least listen to offers on his own mother to see if trading her was worth it to him, and Boston is going to be shopping Rondo right now, even if they're pretty sure they want to keep him, just in case some team decides to bowl them over to get him.
   477. JL Posted: July 14, 2014 at 02:25 PM (#4750101)
wiz: i think they're gonna have some defensive problems on the perimeter. beal and wall are both great athletes, but they're kind of undersized, and 2014 pierce is just about the least athletic wing in the NBA.


I assume Pierce is a bridge until Porter develops. Is that realistic? Porter did not do much last year, but perhaps they think he is not far off?
   478. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 14, 2014 at 02:37 PM (#4750112)
beal and wall are both great athletes, but they're kind of undersized

John Wall is a 6'4" PG with a 6'9.25" wingspan. Beal has a 6'8" wingspan. I don't think Beal is undersized, and if he is, it isn't by much and I'm certain that Wall is one of the biggest PGs in the game.
   479. rr Posted: July 14, 2014 at 02:40 PM (#4750117)
Lakers- I see no world in which that Jordan Hill contract is a good idea


Not all FOs are cagey and smart like Minnesota's is. But seriously, Hill is not as good as some Lakers fans think he is, but he is better than some people on the outside think he is as well. That said, the plus to it is that there is a team option after one year, but you can argue that they would have been better off trying something like Ed Davis and Epke Udoh instead.

As to Nick Young, one word that is coming up in the Lakers blogosphere is "watchable." Young is treated as a joke by the kinds of guys who post on this thread and their numerous counterparts around the net, and as I said last year, I get that. But he played well by his own standards and there are people in the fanbase who like his local ties, his enthusiasm, and his scoring. But most people on the blogs are down on the deal, due to its length. Personally, I would not have brought Young back at all, but Jim Buss and I have different basketball worldviews.

The Lakers are in pretty much the worst spot of any org in the game, having lost out on Paul, Howard, and Nash; having gotten zip for Pau, Blake and Kaman and being bereft of picks. Like any other org in the tank, they got there through a combination of bad luck and bad management, so what they are trying to do is stay competitive, put a product out that that is watchable and entertaining, and hope for a score in FA. Lin, Nash, and Hill will/can come off the books after this year, and then Kobe comes off next year. The odds are against anything big and positive happening for a long time, though.
   480. AROM Posted: July 14, 2014 at 02:58 PM (#4750131)
Lin, Nash, and Hill will/can come off the books after this year, and then Kobe comes off next year.


It's depressing when the best thing to look forward to on your team is the day they don't have to pay their players anymore. I'm not high on Randle, but I hope he can surprise me.
   481. Jimmy P Posted: July 14, 2014 at 03:06 PM (#4750134)
SMU and Larry Brown just lost their top recruit to the overseas leagues. He was a potential one-and-done and a McDonald's All-American, but he's taking the money and getting rid of the NCAA headaches for his year before the draft.
   482. rr Posted: July 14, 2014 at 03:08 PM (#4750135)
AROM,

I am actually looking forward to rooting for Lin; I like him. But yes, the situation is grim overall.

Angels are good, though.
   483. andrewberg Posted: July 14, 2014 at 03:13 PM (#4750139)
Does anyone have strong feelings on what the Team USA starting lineup should be next time around? A lineup of Curry, Harden, Durant, Love, and Davis would be pretty fun to watch. You could also make good arguments to find places for Blake and George, plus Rose as a wildcard.
   484. Manny Coon Posted: July 14, 2014 at 03:16 PM (#4750141)
SMU and Larry Brown just lost their top recruit to the overseas leagues. He was a potential one-and-done and a McDonald's All-American, but he's taking the money and getting rid of the NCAA headaches for his year before the draft.


I'm surprised this doesn't happen more, it didn't really work out Tyler, but Jennings made some good money doing it. Draft slotting makes it risky though, harder to ruin your draft stock if you stay in the NCAA I think. I still think the NBA might do well to subsidize the D-League though to keep these guys in the country.
   485. Manny Coon Posted: July 14, 2014 at 03:25 PM (#4750148)
Does anyone have strong feelings on what the Team USA starting lineup should be next time around? A lineup of Curry, Harden, Durant, Love, and Davis would be pretty fun to watch. You could also make good arguments to find places for Blake and George, plus Rose as a wildcard.


That team would score like crazy, but might do well with a little more defense. Davis should be a very good international player, skilled, mobile bigs have usually done really well for the USA. Griffin I think would also be a very good international, even more so if they can get away with using him at center against certain matchups. Durant did well as more of a PF last time with USA, with Igoudala as SF, George and Durant would probably be similarly effective together. Love's speed and defense are lacking I think, when more well rounded players are available.

The player pool lacks backcourt defense.
   486. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 14, 2014 at 03:31 PM (#4750151)
SMU and Larry Brown just lost their top recruit to the overseas leagues. He was a potential one-and-done and a McDonald's All-American, but he's taking the money and getting rid of the NCAA headaches for his year before the draft.

From ESPN's writeup:
"I was excited about going to SMU and playing college basketball for Coach Brown and his staff and preparing for the NBA, but I was tired of seeing my mom struggle," Mudiay's brother, Stephane, said in quotes his brother provided to SI.com. "And after sitting down with Coach Brown and my family, we decided that the best way for me to provide for my mom was to forgo college and pursue professional basketball opportunities."

However, the athletic 6-foot-5 point guard, considered a one-and-done possibility, is concerned about amateurism issues and not academics or financial stability, the source told ESPN.com. SMU accepted Mudiay academically.

"The NCAA is on him," the source said. "And he's worried."

Gosh, I hate the NCAA. I also wish this was more of an option for guys.
   487. tshipman Posted: July 14, 2014 at 03:35 PM (#4750156)
Why wouldn't you give Jordan Hill 9 million a year? He's a 19 PER/.140 WS guy.

If you prefer more traditional metrics, in 20 mpg, he scores 9 and boards 7.5.

If Trevor Ariza is worth 8 and Gordon Hayward is worth 12, seems like an easy decision.
   488. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 14, 2014 at 03:35 PM (#4750157)
I want to see Rose play, and play well. He can use all the actual playing time he can get. Yet, I can't help but also be super worried about him getting hurt again.

I don't see Coach K going all offense like that, though it's a nice option for him. In general, the roster is very, very strong offensively and has some whole defensively (not just the backcourt). For that reason, I see someone like George starting. Too bad Leonard is sitting out, though I understand why.
   489. theboyqueen Posted: July 14, 2014 at 03:36 PM (#4750158)
Is there some age requirement for team USA? Otherwise wouldn't you want Lebron, Carmelo, and Chris Paul on there? Carmelo has looked great in international competition. Not sure why you would want Harden on the team.

And, sort of implying what I think about him as a player, would anyone put Boogie Cousins on this team?

My starting five would be Paul, Durant, Lebron, Carmelo, Davis, with Curry as 6th man.
   490. theboyqueen Posted: July 14, 2014 at 03:39 PM (#4750161)
Gosh, I hate the NCAA. I also wish [international play] was more of an option for guys


Why isn't it? Some agent could make a ton of money developing these opportunities.
   491. madvillain Posted: July 14, 2014 at 03:40 PM (#4750162)
Is there some age requirement for team USA? Otherwise wouldn't you want Lebron, Carmelo, and Chris Paul on there? Carmelo has looked great in international competition. Not sure why you would want Harden on the team.


Usually the non-Olympic teams are stocked more with youngsters for mileage reasons. Lebron just played another 95+ game season and Paul doesn't need any more extra miles either.

Rose has "vowed" to make the team and according to McBuckets Rose looks 100% in practice. I dunno anymore, he looked like the same old Rose athletically (with rust albeit) before he tore his Patella last season, so who knows. Somehow I think he's going to continue to play how he plays and let the chips fall where they may. I really think he's going to blow his knee out again, I just hope Chicago can get a few years of contention in before it happens.

This team they have right now looks pretty damn good IMO. Pau and Noah and Gibson is a helluva big man rotation and if Rose comes back at 90% of his previous level, you've got a 55+ win team.
   492. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 14, 2014 at 03:44 PM (#4750165)
Some agent could make a ton of money developing these opportunities.
Or int'l league.
   493. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 14, 2014 at 03:54 PM (#4750171)
Is there some age requirement for team USA? Otherwise wouldn't you want Lebron, Carmelo, and Chris Paul on there? Carmelo has looked great in international competition. Not sure why you would want Harden on the team.

No, they've all chosen not to play. They were all invited and turned it down.
   494. andrewberg Posted: July 14, 2014 at 03:56 PM (#4750173)
The full group in training, per ESPN:

(Rose), Kevin Durant, Kevin Love, James Harden and Anthony Davis were the four holdovers from London, and there were new additions of Toronto's DeMar DeRozan and Chandler Parsons
...
The rest of the roster: Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson (Golden State), Kyrie Irving (Cleveland), Blake Griffin (Clippers), Paul George (Indiana), Damian Lillard (Portland), Gordon Hayward (Utah), DeMarcus Cousins (Sacramento), Bradley Beal (Washington), Andre Drummond (Detroit), Kenneth Faried (Denver) and Kyle Korver (Atlanta).
   495. steagles Posted: July 14, 2014 at 04:48 PM (#4750214)
Why wouldn't you give Jordan Hill 9 million a year? He's a 19 PER/.140 WS guy.
i forget; is jordan hill a poor man's channing frye, or is channing frye a poor man's jordan hill?

(Rose), Kevin Durant, Kevin Love, James Harden and Anthony Davis were the four holdovers from London, and there were new additions of Toronto's DeMar DeRozan and Chandler Parsons
...
The rest of the roster: Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson (Golden State), Kyrie Irving (Cleveland), Blake Griffin (Clippers), Paul George (Indiana), Damian Lillard (Portland), Gordon Hayward (Utah), DeMarcus Cousins (Sacramento), Bradley Beal (Washington), Andre Drummond (Detroit), Kenneth Faried (Denver) and Kyle Korver (Atlanta).
two lineups l'd like to see:
curry/thompson/durant/faried/davis
lillard/irving/george/love/drummond

   496. theboyqueen Posted: July 14, 2014 at 05:00 PM (#4750229)
OK then Lillard, Curry, Durant, Davis, and Drummond would be my starting 5.
   497. rr Posted: July 14, 2014 at 05:02 PM (#4750233)
Why wouldn't you give Jordan Hill 9 million a year? He's a 19 PER/.140 WS guy

--

I think these metrics make him look better than he is, for a couple of reasons:

1. He has short arms and doesn't help you that much with rim protection or Team D.
2. He doesn't have great shooting range, which is a big deal in today's game.

But he is a pretty decent player.
   498. andrewberg Posted: July 14, 2014 at 05:07 PM (#4750236)
I think Hill is a really good 4th big and ok as a 3rd big. Kind of like an updated Drew Gooden with inferior defense and more efficient offense. I just don't think that player should get $9m a year. At least it is short.
   499. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 14, 2014 at 05:12 PM (#4750241)
Sam Amick ?@sam_amick 35m
As the Bulls keep clearing space, I'm told they'll send Anthony Randolph and two second rounders to Orlando. Randolph expected to be waived.


That means it ends up that the Bulls gave up 2 first round picks and 3 second round picks to move up 5 spots in the draft to get McBuckets. Terrible value, and hopefully he's good cause that's a ton to give up.

Bulls have to fill out the roster with 3 minimum guys now, and from the little I've seen of Baristow in the summer league (Bulls 2nd round pick), he doesn't look at all like an NBA roster player.
   500. steagles Posted: July 14, 2014 at 05:43 PM (#4750278)
That means it ends up that the Bulls gave up 2 first round picks and 3 second round picks to move up 5 spots in the draft to get McBuckets. Terrible value, and hopefully he's good cause that's a ton to give up.
i don't think you can hold this trade against derbel mcdillet. the bulls wanted randolph so the fact that they have to dump him now should be held against their front office and only their front office.
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