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Tuesday, July 08, 2014

OT: Monthly NBA Thread- July 2014

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: German aggression and Israeli aggression of entirely different types.

andrewberg Posted: July 08, 2014 at 08:17 PM | 1081 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nba, off topic

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   801. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: July 21, 2014 at 09:37 PM (#4755489)
flip
   802. smileyy Posted: July 21, 2014 at 10:12 PM (#4755515)
I remember when Turner was All-NBA on the Sixer's. What happened?
   803. RollingWave Posted: July 21, 2014 at 10:41 PM (#4755529)
bad shot selection, only 40% shots at the rim or 3, and he doesn't even make his 3s that much or have a particularly awesome % in the inbetween area to justify that sort of distribution.

I would like to say he's not unsalvagable, but there are guys who just take bad shots as a habit, and Turner feel like one of those guys.
   804. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Posted: July 22, 2014 at 06:58 AM (#4755572)
I'd like to think that a coach like Stevens and a rebuild situation like the Celtics have is the perfect opportunity for a guy like Turner to turn it around. But of course I'd like to think that, I'm a C's fan.
   805. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 22, 2014 at 09:45 AM (#4755622)
PER (which favors Beasley by some measure) and shape of careers aside, the Beasley/Turner parallel holds up pretty well when you look at their numbers. About the same career WS/48, for one...
   806. starving to death with a full STEAGLES Posted: July 22, 2014 at 01:07 PM (#4755718)
I'd like to think that a coach like Stevens and a rebuild situation like the Celtics have is the perfect opportunity for a guy like Turner to turn it around. But of course I'd like to think that, I'm a C's fan.
turner is a great signing for the celtics.

he's exactly the kind of guy you want to sign if you want to tank without being too obvious about wanting to tank. .
   807. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 22, 2014 at 01:55 PM (#4755756)
Sources say that the Bulls, though, have re-entered the race and would appear to be the biggest threats to the Cavs, thanks largely to the Golden State Warriors' resolute unwillingness to add longtime Wolves target Klay Thompson in any deal.

Although the full extent of the Bulls' offer wasn't immediately known, it is believed Minnesota would seek a package from Chicago featuring forward Taj Gibson and defensive ace Jimmy Butler in addition to other assets. The Bulls shelved their Love interest while trying to sign Carmelo Anthony away from the New York Knicks but, according to sources, have re-emerged as contenders.


Uh...ok. Love is better than all of Gibson/Mirotic/Gasol, so sure, it's a clear upgrade. Mirotic can't be traded now (or for 30 days, and probably won't be moved if he really was told he wouldn't be*), I'm not seeing how Bulls are even coming close to the Cavs offer even if Mirotic was part of the deal.

IOW, to me, this reads like the Wolves really, really want Klay Thompson and are trying to find other ways to get the W's to cave. Or maybe it's more pressure on the Cavs. I dunno, it doesn't feel like a straight up rumor to me from the Wolves' perspective.

*Bulls might not have promised him that, though he was supposedly told that. I think the timing of the signing probably takes the Bulls out of the running for a trade this offseason, but wouldn't preclude them during the season.
   808. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 22, 2014 at 02:57 PM (#4755797)
Windhorst piece on my favorite thing about LeBron:
In the jovial postgame locker room, it's pointed out to James by a reporter that almost exactly five years earlier, he'd won a game with a jumper at Oracle Arena at the buzzer from virtually the same exact spot at the same basket.

"Not really," James says in response. "That one was probably about six feet closer to the baseline and inside the 3-point arc. It was over Ronny Turiaf, I stepped back on him but I crossed him over first and got him on his heels. I'm sure of it. It was down the sideline a few feet. It was a side out-of-bounds play; this one we brought up."

Within moments, James is watching that very 2009 highlight on a cell phone while icing his aching feet. And indeed, there it is -- the crossover step-back on Turiaf from, oh, about six feet to the left of the shot he'd just hit over Iguodala. Right along the sideline inside the 3-point line. A side out-of-bounds play. Just like he said.

Article also dives into this James strength being a weakness as he can be an overthinker.
   809. cheng Posted: July 22, 2014 at 03:09 PM (#4755809)
Anyone else getting flashbacks to Pokey Reese being untouchable in Griffey trade rumors? That's unfair to Klay Thompson, since he's a more valuable asset now than Reese ever was, but the Warriors' unwillingness to trade a guy for a demonstrably better one is just bizarre.
   810. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: July 22, 2014 at 03:27 PM (#4755832)
Mudiay to Guangdong for $1.2 million.
   811. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 22, 2014 at 03:55 PM (#4755854)
Read the link in 808.
   812. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 22, 2014 at 05:51 PM (#4755932)
@JoelEmbiid: SOURCES: Rihanna is considering JOEL EMBIID’s offer
   813. bibigon Posted: July 22, 2014 at 06:17 PM (#4755937)
I'd like to think that a coach like Stevens and a rebuild situation like the Celtics have is the perfect opportunity for a guy like Turner to turn it around. But of course I'd like to think that, I'm a C's fan.

I'm not sure how much there is to turn around. Turner was the #2 overall pick, but he played college for three years. He was supposed to be NBA ready, not an upside project. He's the same age as Beasley, in spite of being drafted years later.
   814. theboyqueen Posted: July 22, 2014 at 06:25 PM (#4755940)
Lebron and Peyton Manning seem very similar to me. Both seem to have a style of intelligence that is uniquely suited to their particular sport, and unreal memories for minute details. Unfortunately, both may ultimately be more remembered for their losses than their considerable success, though obviously there is much of Lebron's legacy that is yet to be written.

I continue to think Lebron has a future in coaching.
   815. andrewberg Posted: July 22, 2014 at 07:04 PM (#4755959)
Unfortunately, both may ultimately be more remembered for their losses than their considerable success, though obviously there is much of Lebron's legacy that is yet to be written.


Lebron already has title wins over the 2nd best player of his generation and a dynastic opponent that will go down as an all-time great franchise.

Peyton beat Rex Grossman.
   816. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: July 22, 2014 at 08:12 PM (#4755988)
How is this the first major article about Lebron's memory? This should have been a topic of conversation for the past 10 years. From what I've read, Larry Bird is able to recall games the same way, although I can't find any articles attesting to that at the moment.
   817. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: July 22, 2014 at 08:20 PM (#4755991)
   818. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 22, 2014 at 08:36 PM (#4755998)
Iow, a second, $1m, and Felix for 3 small non guaranteed deals (love bait)
   819. rr Posted: July 22, 2014 at 09:08 PM (#4756012)
If I were Minnesota, I would be adamant about getting Wiggins if Cleveland wants the deal, no matter what other machinations Cleveland gets into. Minnesota can always move Love at the deadline if they wind up in take-whatever mode.
   820. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 22, 2014 at 09:12 PM (#4756014)
Peyton beat Rex Grossman.


This is unassailably true.

It's also true that Peyton won 12 games every year like clockwork, and two conference championships, in a tough conference with two other dynastic teams. For 9 straight seasons from 2003 to 2011--and 10 out of 11 from 2001-2012, and 11 out of 13 from 2001-present--the AFC's Super Bowl quarterback has been Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger or Peyton Manning. (Only an unfathomably stupid play by a defensive back prevented us from being on 11 straight years and counting.) And Brady and Roethlisberger have had much better teams around them than Manning ever did with the Colts.

Manning gets dinged a lot for underperforming in a few big games, and it leaves aside the fact that none of his teams would have gotten into any big games if he hadn't led them there. Most of his Colts teams wouldn't have made the playoffs with average quarterbacking. His record is very, very impressive.

Let the record also show that two of Manning's most renowned "chokes", the 2005 AFC Championship and 2013 Super Bowl, came against great, great defenses. It's funny how so many have forgotten or glossed over his magnificent comeback against the Patriots in the 2006 AFC Championship. It doesn't fit with the narrative, you know. Yeah, he beat Rex Grossman--but just before that he led his team back from a 15-point halftime deficit against Tom Brady.

If I were Minnesota, I would be adamant about getting Wiggins if Cleveland wants the deal, no matter what other machinations Cleveland gets into. Minnesota can always move Love at the deadline if they wind up in take-whatever mode.


I think someone else, maybe even you, posted this thought a while ago and I'm just giving it a "me too!": I don't think Minnesota really wants to trade Love at all, at least right now. I think they're going to keep him unless they get bowled over, meaning just Wiggins isn't going to be enough.
   821. rr Posted: July 22, 2014 at 11:18 PM (#4756075)
Roy Hibbert hangs out with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Larry Bird:

link
   822. rr Posted: July 23, 2014 at 01:57 AM (#4756127)
Looks like it is a consulting thing:

WindhorstESPN
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar tweeted tonight he's in Indy to start offseason sessions with Roy Hibbert.
   823. MikeOberly Posted: July 23, 2014 at 02:57 AM (#4756133)
If I were Minnesota, I would be adamant about getting Wiggins if Cleveland wants the deal, no matter what other machinations Cleveland gets into. Minnesota can always move Love at the deadline if they wind up in take-whatever mode


I agree, and since I believe that Love to Cavs is going to happen, I think they are getting Wiggins.
   824. rr Posted: July 23, 2014 at 03:21 AM (#4756137)
link

LOS ANGELES -- Donald Sterling filed a suit in Superior Court on Tuesday afternoon seeking damages from the NBA, commissioner Adam Silver and his wife Shelly Sterling, alleging they defrauded him and violated corporate law in attempting to sell the franchise to former Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer.

Sterling asked for an injunction to freeze the $2 billion sale, arguing that his wife had no authority to sell the franchise because he is the sole owner and shareholder of the corporation which owns the Clippers, after he revoked the Sterling Family Trust on June 9.

"The new lawsuit states the seller of the team is not Donald, and it's not Shelly -- the seller of the team is the corporation that owns the team, and that's LAC Basketball Club Inc.," Donald Sterling's attorney, Bobby Samini, said Tuesday. "When Donald bought the team, the shares of the corporation are only in Donald's name. They were only issued to Donald, so Donald owns the shares of the corporation. He's the sole shareholder. He put the shares up into the trust in 1989, and when we revoked the trust, the shares go back down to him."
   825. RollingWave Posted: July 23, 2014 at 03:57 AM (#4756141)
I'd like to think that a coach like Stevens and a rebuild situation like the Celtics have is the perfect opportunity for a guy like Turner to turn it around. But of course I'd like to think that, I'm a C's fan


Brett Brown looked like a pretty good coach last year for awhile too and i'm pretty sure you'll never find a more dramatic rebuild situation than the Sixers.

Love trade : my opinion is that the longer they drag this out the worse it'll get for the Wolfs, but we'll see.
   826. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 23, 2014 at 07:40 AM (#4756155)
Love trade : my opinion is that the longer they drag this out the worse it'll get for the Wolfs, but we'll see.


From what I have heard from semi-trustworthy sources is that it is going to be at least a month, based on rules around contract signing and trades (Wiggins signing his deal means any trade involving him can't be announced for a month I guess).

From the rumor mill, the Wolves are trying to dump some other contracts along with Love and seem to be going full out rebuild mode. Which goes against the typical Coach/GM MO, but the West is so stacked now I think that is the right way to go (even as an impatient Wolves fan).
   827. RollingWave Posted: July 23, 2014 at 08:35 AM (#4756163)
That is the problem though, if they want to go into tank mode, then KEEPING most of those contracts are actually a plus, JJ Barea probably costed the Wolfs 3 wins from a average backup PG by himself last year, as did Chase Budinger (though at least Bud had the health excuse.) Martin's probably the only contract there that might help some teams win games. and of course, Pekovic, but I'm assuming they aren't moving Pek without a great offer.
   828. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 23, 2014 at 08:59 AM (#4756169)
if they want to go into tank mode


I think of rebuild and tank differently. I think of tanking as being bad to get a better draft pick and rebuild as going young, getting rid of every player that won't help the next good team or at least won't be a positive influence on the youngsters. yes they might look fairly similar, but I think there is a bit of a difference.

No matter what they are going to get a pretty good pick next year, but they have (assuming the various trades happen) plenty of potential young talent. Now they need to give them playing time and hope most (at least some) develop. I don't think Barea is much help to the Wolves in rebuild mode honestly. I think he can help a team win, but he is not a good fit for the Wolves.

Maybe I am being overly defined in my terms though.
   829. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 23, 2014 at 11:57 AM (#4756240)
Chris Sheridan ?@sheridanhoops 54m
EXCLUSIVE: #Bulls have offered Taj Gibson, Nikola Mirotic and Doug McDermott to #Twolves for K.Love, per NBA source. http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2014/07/23/exclusive-bulls-have-offered-gibson-mcdermott-and-mirotic-for-love/ …


That's probably about the best the Bulls could do and keep a full roster for this season, save adding picks or other options like that, and it's still not as good as a Wiggins/Bennett deal.
   830. Eddo Posted: July 23, 2014 at 12:33 PM (#4756274)
Peyton beat Rex Grossman.

I don't recall Grossman suiting up on defense in Super Bowl XLI, but maybe my memory's not so good.

No; Peyton Manning beat one of the top two defenses in the NFL in Super Bowl XLI (he beat the other in the divisional round that year).
   831. Jimmy P Posted: July 23, 2014 at 01:42 PM (#4756316)
Sterling asked for an injunction to freeze the $2 billion sale, arguing that his wife had no authority to sell the franchise because he is the sole owner and shareholder of the corporation which owns the Clippers, after he revoked the Sterling Family Trust on June 9.


This is the situation the NBA doesn't want. They don't want this dragging out over the summer drudging up bad news. They especially don't want it to go into camp where the coach and players may not report if Sterling still owns the team.
   832. cmd600 Posted: July 23, 2014 at 02:23 PM (#4756333)
This is the situation the NBA doesn't want. They don't want this dragging out over the summer drudging up bad news.


I wonder if there was any thought of "hey, this might not go as spectacularly as we hope" when they were collecting all that great PR by coming down so hard on Sterling in the first place.
   833. Jimmy P Posted: July 23, 2014 at 02:31 PM (#4756341)
I wonder if there was any thought of "hey, this might not go as spectacularly as we hope" when they were collecting all that great PR by coming down so hard on Sterling in the first place.


I'm sure there was. But, I think it became too big of a story. I think Silver just didn't want to deal with Sterling anymore and knew these issues would keep happening with him. Maybe there was too much assumption that giving a guy $1 billion (or more) would make him shut up and be happy. That doesn't appear to be the case, though.
   834. madvillain Posted: July 23, 2014 at 02:36 PM (#4756344)
#### is getting real in Chicago. Bulls have offered Mirotic + Gibson + McBuckets for Love and according to sources (who knows, just a report being circulated) "the Wolves prefer Chicago's offer".

Interesting times. Chicago would have to wait another couple of weeks to complete the trade but if Cle refuses to add another 1st rounder maybe Chicago can pull it off.
   835. AROM Posted: July 23, 2014 at 02:54 PM (#4756356)
Sterling made a claim that Ballmer's offer of 2 billion wasn't enough, that the team is worth 2.5-5 billion. In my opinion this is conclusive proof of his wife's claim that Sterling is mentally incompetent. If that sale falls through and the Clippers actually sell for 2.5-5 billion, then it's the world that is insane.
   836. cmd600 Posted: July 23, 2014 at 03:01 PM (#4756364)
Sterling made a claim that Ballmer's offer of 2 billion wasn't enough, that the team is worth 2.5-5 billion. In my opinion this is conclusive proof of his wife's claim that Sterling is mentally incompetent. If that sale falls through and the Clippers actually sell for 2.5-5 billion, then it's the world that is insane.


This post may need to be saved until we see what the new TV deal looks like after the 15/16 season. There's going to a mindboggling amount of money floating around the league.
   837. Jimmy P Posted: July 23, 2014 at 04:10 PM (#4756435)
Sterling made a claim that Ballmer's offer of 2 billion wasn't enough, that the team is worth 2.5-5 billion. In my opinion this is conclusive proof of his wife's claim that Sterling is mentally incompetent. If that sale falls through and the Clippers actually sell for 2.5-5 billion, then it's the world that is insane.

He's got a very strong argument, too.
   838. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 23, 2014 at 04:24 PM (#4756449)
#### is getting real in Chicago. Bulls have offered Mirotic + Gibson + McBuckets for Love and according to sources (who knows, just a report being circulated) "the Wolves prefer Chicago's offer".

Interesting times. Chicago would have to wait another couple of weeks to complete the trade but if Cle refuses to add another 1st rounder maybe Chicago can pull it off.


Like I said a couple of times this page, I still say it's Wolves using Bulls as leverage. Those "local sources" are Joe Cowley, who is an ####### and probably is totally full of #### for all I know*. And if Sheridan wasn't right on the LeBron to Cleve thing, I'd also completely be writing him off.

*Yesterday:
Sun-Times Basketball @suntimes_hoops · 23h
All the "Bulls are back in the Love sweepstakes'' is coming from the Minnesota side. Don't believe the hype.

Sun-Times Basketball @suntimes_hoops · 23h
Talked to a source who quickly pointed out that the leaks are coming from the Twin Cities. Can you say playing chicken?

Today:
Sun-Times Basketball @suntimes_hoops · 3h
According to a Timberwolves source, the Bulls made a "significant offer'' for Kevin Love this morning and it's being "heavily considered.''

Sun-Times Basketball @suntimes_hoops · 3h
According to the source, Timberwolves reached out to Bulls last night to let them know Cavs offer was best on the table ...

Sun-Times Basketball @suntimes_hoops · 3h
.... Gar Forman played poker face for about 12 hours, and then pushed all the chips in this morning. Confirmed Taj and McDermott ...

Sun-Times Basketball @suntimes_hoops · 3h
... as well as "other assets.'' Mirotic is still unconfirmed.


Ok, buddy. Whatever you say.
   839. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 23, 2014 at 04:31 PM (#4756456)
Until the Love trade happens I will believe in my heart that the Wolves will do great. Win-win and it will set the course for the next decade of winning here on the tundra.

Right! Right?
   840. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 23, 2014 at 05:15 PM (#4756478)
Regardless of what moves the Bulls make, Cowley is terrible.
   841. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 23, 2014 at 05:43 PM (#4756501)
So listening to Pelton on David Locke's podcast...is Kevin Love underrated defensively? Synergy has him above average, 82 games has the Wolves as equal defensively with him on the court this last season, better with him last season, and just slightly worse the year before. He's not a rim protector obviously, but his defensive rebounding is a boost to defense (and offense) though he should not bail on defending as often to go for the board...
   842. andrewberg Posted: July 23, 2014 at 05:48 PM (#4756508)
So listening to Pelton on David Locke's podcast...is Kevin Love underrated defensively? Synergy has him above average, 82 games has the Wolves as equal defensively with him on the court this last season, better with him last season, and just slightly worse the year before. He's not a rim protector obviously, but his defensive rebounding is a boost to defense (and offense) though he should not bail on defending as often to go for the board...


I have always said that he is an average-ish defender, maybe a few small ticks below that. The problem is that you need one of your two bigs to be a plus defender or you have almost no chance of being a really good defensive team. That's the opportunity cost of playing an average defender at the four.
   843. cmd600 Posted: July 23, 2014 at 06:07 PM (#4756527)
He's got a very strong argument, too.


Projected EBITDA of $260M for 2014
   844. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: July 23, 2014 at 06:12 PM (#4756532)
Sorry to interrupt but any nba related podcast recommendations?
   845. RollingWave Posted: July 23, 2014 at 09:17 PM (#4756640)
Podcast : all 3 Grantland pod is pretty good in different ways (Lowe / BS report / Jalen Rose), I really like the CBS eye on basketball pod, the starters pod, and the true hoop TV Live (not really a pod but you can play it like one obviously.)

Love : he's not a defensive black hole, but obviously would be a problem if you don't have a good defensive center with him.

   846. chris p Posted: July 23, 2014 at 09:56 PM (#4756662)
Love : he's not a defensive black hole, but obviously would be a problem if you don't have a good defensive center with him.


meh. if he ends up on the cavs, i hope hope hope they aren't afraid to go small with lebron and love at 4 and 5. the heat didn't start winning championships until they started playing lineups with lebron, battier, and bosh regularly. it would be bad for lebron and bad for basketball if they insist on trotting out some stiff at center next to lebron and love.
   847. RollingWave Posted: July 23, 2014 at 10:33 PM (#4756677)
Well yeah, obviously if you don't have a good defensive C you might as well go small like that, Varajao is actually very good when he can get on the floor, but since he can't, so using this sort of lineup might actually be more ideal as then you can limit Varajao's minutes as a super efficient 3rd big.

   848. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 23, 2014 at 11:26 PM (#4756707)
And Blatt has hinted that he's willing to play small ball.

Aminu to DAL for 2/2.1m or so (yr 2 a p-opt). Nice pickup - he's not great on offense and can't stretch the floor, but his defense and rebounding more than make up for it at that price. They're also likely to ink Jameer Nelson, who's still a solid player.
HOU reportedly to ink Capela, as the summer of Morey continues (they wanted him to play overseas, he would not consent). DEN did sign Nurkic.
   849. RollingWave Posted: July 24, 2014 at 12:07 AM (#4756719)
I understand why Morey did what he did but boy this could potentially end up being pretty bad, he's essentially counting on a bunch of rookies or 2nd year guys to carry the bench, which almost never ends well . and this is the west here, even a modest drop off from their 54 wins last year could potentially see them as the late seed or even out of the playoff entirely, and if the worst case happens while you have Dwight Howard on your team it's pretty close to a firable offense.
   850. Manny Coon Posted: July 24, 2014 at 12:41 AM (#4756728)
So listening to Pelton on David Locke's podcast...is Kevin Love underrated defensively?


He's one of the best couple defensive rebounders in the league and that obviously counts for something. Otherwise he's pretty weak defensively; if you separate out the rebounding and focus on just forcing missed shots and turnovers he's below average, most other guys that rebound as well are much better overall defenders, although there are few aren't like Reggie Evans.
   851. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: July 24, 2014 at 02:19 AM (#4756742)
Given the much-ballyhooed outlet passing, it probably makes sense for Love to trade bucket prevention for defensive rebounds.
   852. MikeOberly Posted: July 24, 2014 at 03:31 AM (#4756749)
I know you can't wish away scumbags, but if all the Sterling clan could just go away, that'd be great.

   853. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 24, 2014 at 09:03 AM (#4756782)
Regardless of what moves the Bulls make, Cowley is terrible.

This is fact. And he's contradicting himself *again*:

Sun-Times Basketball @suntimes_hoops · 19h
If this is going down it could be going down quicker than expected.

Sun-Times Basketball @suntimes_hoops · 15h
Bad news, Bulls are shooting down idea that there was a deadline placed on deal. Pack a lunch, this might take awhile.


That idea about the deadline, that came exclusively from him.

Enough other people have confirmed the Sheridan rumor about the Bulls offer, so the only thing we know for sure is the Bulls made an offer. I'm not sure why the Wolves would prefer that offer to the Cavs, as so many people seem to think.
   854. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 24, 2014 at 09:34 AM (#4756792)
If the Cavs have the best offer and you (as MIN) perceive the Cavs as having the greatest need for Love among the buyers, you might want them to think that they don't have the best package on the table, via the media - right?
   855. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 24, 2014 at 09:53 AM (#4756801)
Definitely. The Wolves are trying to squeeze every last possible pick out of them.
   856. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 24, 2014 at 09:56 AM (#4756803)
Minnesota can and should tell Cleveland, "Don't waste your time calling us if Wiggins isn't in your offer."
   857. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 24, 2014 at 10:37 AM (#4756831)
Wiggins is already in the offer. It's Wiggins, Bennett and a first rounder. They're trying to get more.
   858. RollingWave Posted: July 24, 2014 at 10:43 AM (#4756838)
In all honesty though, they need to be careful not going over the top, Wiggins / Bennett / 1st is probably already by far the BEST single package EVER offered in ANY trade in the ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE NBA. (at least with respect to their value at the time of the trade.)

   859. RollingWave Posted: July 24, 2014 at 11:19 AM (#4756858)
btw, this means for the team that's trading for the best player obviously.
   860. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 24, 2014 at 11:26 AM (#4756863)
Wiggins is already in the offer. It's Wiggins, Bennett and a first rounder. They're trying to get more.


Holy Buddha, seriously? That is an insane overpay, absolutely insane. If the Wolves haven't accepted that then they have no intention of trading Love at all, period.

I'm starting to fear that it's LeBron's fate to eternally toil on undermanned teams.
   861. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 24, 2014 at 11:35 AM (#4756869)
Wiggins is already in the offer. It's Wiggins, Bennett and a first rounder. They're trying to get more.


Holy Buddha, seriously? That is an insane overpay, absolutely insane. If the Wolves haven't accepted that then they have no intention of trading Love at all, period.


I don't know that they want more, but they do want to somehow manage to unload various contracts, since they have gone from win now with Love to Win later with the young guys. Yes it is more from their standpoint, but if done right can help the other team as well - since obviously different teams have different needs and are at different points in the success cycle (an over used yet valuable idea IMO).

I think Wiggins, Bennett and a random first rounder is a pretty good deal for both sides, and potentially helps both teams plenty. However remember since we have a month before any deal can be consummated they may well keep talking to find a way - maybe with a third or fourth team - to help all sides even more. Why not?

I am sure once a deal is set though, and it could already be set, the sides will agree and keep the deal until it can be done. I doubt it would be kept open the whole time with teams looking for better deals post an agreement - that sounds like a great way to be penny wise and long run pound foolish.
   862. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 24, 2014 at 11:39 AM (#4756871)
No, that deal doesn't help both sides. It helps Minnesota and hurts Cleveland. It is very lopsided in Minnesota's favor.
   863. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 24, 2014 at 11:50 AM (#4756883)
No, that deal doesn't help both sides. It helps Minnesota and hurts Cleveland. It is very lopsided in Minnesota's favor.


I think you are underrating how good Love is, how important it is to have three top players (LBJ, Love and Irving) towards championships, overrating the odds of Wiggins and Bennett becoming great and underselling how important winning championships are.

I think every team should be willing to trade good now and good in the future for great now and mediocre in the future. Concentrating greatness in a bid to win it all is completely worth while. Flags fly forever, good is nice but forgotten.

Love added to the team makes them much more likely to win it all over the next few years and keep LBJ in the fold. Getting rid of "the kids" hurts them in 3 to 8 years(if they develop), when they come fully into their own and LBJ has declined. That is a great trade for both sides.
   864. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 24, 2014 at 12:05 PM (#4756898)
I'm with Bitter Mouse.

Bennett was the #1 overall pick last year and likely to improve significantly. He was also terrible last season, below replacement level, and will be really expensive for a player of that ilk. Who looked like a better asset coming out of their rookie year: Evan Turner or Bennett? I'd say Turner... Beasley or
Bennett? I say Beasley. That said, we know those two didn't turn it around - Bennett still can.

A 1st rounder from Cleveland is likely to not be that great of a pick.

That leaves Wiggins - a great asset to be sure - but whose median expected outcome is quite a bit less of a player than Love (though for a lot less cost and longer team control).

I think this (or something like it) is the right move for both sides as well. Cleveland's future is now - Minnesota's is not + needs to take risks.
   865. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 24, 2014 at 12:10 PM (#4756902)
Well, we can agree on one thing about this deal: Wiggins and Bennett would be taking it in the shorts.
   866. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: July 24, 2014 at 12:29 PM (#4756921)
In all honesty though, they need to be careful not going over the top, Wiggins / Bennett / 1st is probably already by far the BEST single package EVER offered in ANY trade in the ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE NBA. (at least with respect to their value at the time of the trade.)

Does Bennett even have positive trade value? He was wretched last year, one of the 5 worst rotation players in the league, and he's paid more than the MLE. Yes he was the #1 overall pick, but almost everyone thought he was a huge reach and his performance has only confirmed it. Even with the reports of him looking better now, he still wasn't a top 50 player in the summer league with a year of NBA experience. A future 1st round pick certainly has value but maybe not a ton, as none of Cleveland's 1st round picks projects to be in the lottery. Most likely they own a pick around 20, a pick around 25 that they aren't allowed to trade, and a protected pick that would probably convey in 2017.

Pretty much all of the value in this offer is tied up in Wiggins. It's very easy to talk yourself into Wiggins as a future star, but it's also very easy to talk yourself out of him. On the one hand, he has crazy athleticism -- particularly leaping ability and quickness -- and there were a couple games in college where he really took over and looked unstoppable. Maybe even if he doesn't totally pan out on offense he can be lockdown defensive wing, and if he does figure things out, he can be a Paul George clone. On the other hand, he was not an impressive player statistically at Kansas. In fact, one of his freshman teammates who was supposedly very raw outperformed him across the board. If Embiid didn't have injury concerns, he'd clearly be a tier above Wiggins as a prospect. The statistical models tended to peg him as non-lottery caliber, and most of his nearest statistical comps are merely role players. Tobias Harris is useful, but if you trade Kevin Love for Tobias Harris you've failed on a massive scale.

It's a low-floor, high-ceiling offer that results in the Wolves immediately no longer competing for the playoffs and rather entering rebuilding mode. Flip seems to be holding out for a high-floor, high-ceiling offer, like he could get if the Cavs replaced Bennett with Varejao or added Waiters. Maybe that's too much to ask, but the Cavs don't seem to have other trade options if they want to vault into favorite status.

I think the Wizards should jump into the bidding at this point. If Love would be willing to pick up his player option as a condition of the deal, they could set themselves up for 2 years as title contenders and then either re-sign Love or make a run at Durant. Otto Porter and Glen Rice Jr. both played very well in Vegas, much better than Wiggins and Bennett, and the Wizards can offer Nene as an above-average starter at PF to replace Love. Those three guys plus a first round pick for Love and spare parts the Wolves want to move might be competitive. The Wolves would ask for Beal, and if I'm Washington, I think I'd pull the trigger on a Beal/Nene for Love/Brewer swap. Love throwing outlet passes to Wall is just as enticing as him throwing those passes to LeBron.
   867. The Pequod Posted: July 24, 2014 at 12:48 PM (#4756940)
Where is the idea that "Wiggins is already in the offer" coming from? I haven't seen anything to suggest that, other than the unsubstantiated "Cavs willing to include Wiggins" stuff that was floated last weekend.
   868. AROM Posted: July 24, 2014 at 12:56 PM (#4756946)
Does Bennett even have positive trade value? He was wretched last year, one of the 5 worst rotation players in the league, and he's paid more than the MLE. Yes he was the #1 overall pick, but almost everyone thought he was a huge reach and his performance has only confirmed it.


This. Bennett will make 5.5 million next year, team options of 5.8 and 7.3 the next 2 years. He will improve next year because it's near impossible for him to be any worse. But how much upside is there? Last year we saw a player who couldn't shoot, not much of a passer, a below average rebounder for his position, who doesn't protect the rim.

What's his upside? If he improves dramatically he can be a 4th option on offense as a stretch 4, and maybe help as a post defender (Cleveland had a slightly better effective FG% with him on the floor, a good sign for a rookie.) I'm thinking he could, with a lot of improvement, be a similar player to Brandon Bass. But he's already making Brandon Bass money.

If the trade goes down then Cleveland's near future #1 picks will be in the 25-30 range. All things equal, if I were Minnesota I'd rather have Wiggins straight up than this package. But a package is needed to make the salaries work.


   869. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 24, 2014 at 01:08 PM (#4756957)
And Minnesota want to dump some of their bad contracts as well, as we've discussed previously.

Grantland profiled Mark Deeks, the shamsports guy. Oddly, it uses stock photos, rather than ones of the subject.
   870. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 24, 2014 at 01:23 PM (#4756967)
Where is the idea that "Wiggins is already in the offer" coming from? I haven't seen anything to suggest that, other than the unsubstantiated "Cavs willing to include Wiggins" stuff that was floated last weekend.

Unsubstantiated? Nearly everyone worth following for rumors has confirmed that one.

A future 1st round pick certainly has value but maybe not a ton, as none of Cleveland's 1st round picks projects to be in the lottery. Most likely they own a pick around 20, a pick around 25 that they aren't allowed to trade, and a protected pick that would probably convey in 2017.

Cleveland has next year's Miami pick. Plus I think a Memphis one. They traded one to dump Jack/Zeller, right, but I'm not sure why they can't still trade multiple ones.
   871. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 24, 2014 at 01:26 PM (#4756971)
Even if Wiggins never learns to shoot, he should still be a valuable player, ultra-athletic, excellent defender, can get to the rim/line enough to be more than a zero on offense as long as he doesn't shoot too much. I think the quality of coaching and teammate rolemodeling he gets is going to be very important--and thus, I think if he stays in Cleveland he has a good chance to become a very good player, and if he goes to Minnesota he's probably going to bust.
   872. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 24, 2014 at 01:30 PM (#4756974)
Seattle/Louisville as expansion possibilities.
It's on a Sonics fansite + I thought that the relationship b/w UofL + the Yum! Center precludes an NBA team, but it's worth a peak.
   873. madvillain Posted: July 24, 2014 at 01:32 PM (#4756977)
Deeks is a long time institution onto himself on the Bulls' Real GM board. I started posting there in 2004 and Deeks was already well onto his journey from obscure guy in England obsessed with the economics of the NBA to the widely recognized guru he is today.

I will say that like much English humor, I don't get his particular brand of wit, but many certainly do, and he knows his ####.

A poster on the Bulls' board at RealGM that is actually a legit source and not some fly by night guy (he's been a member for years and correctly called the Deng trade and McBuckets interest, among others) that says Chicago isn't necessarily talking to Minny about Love, but are possibly involved as a 3rd team with the Cavs. He wouldn't say much more than that but if the trade eventually does go down don't be surprised if Love ends up in Cleveland and another big piece (possibly Wiggans) is headed to Chicago.

There seems to be enough smoke here that something did indeed change with Chicago's offer in the past 48 hours. It could have been something even as "simple" as getting Mirotic's consent on a trade. It would be a bit disappointing to never see Mirotic as a Bull after all the hype but if he brings back a more balanced roster via trade that's great.
   874. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: July 24, 2014 at 01:37 PM (#4756980)
A future 1st round pick certainly has value but maybe not a ton, as none of Cleveland's 1st round picks projects to be in the lottery.


Cleveland has Miami's pick.

EDIT: Moses beat me.
   875. The Pequod Posted: July 24, 2014 at 01:38 PM (#4756984)
Unsubstantiated? Nearly everyone worth following for rumors has confirmed that one.


It sounded to me like everyone was backpedaling after the initial reports: Everyone Is Available For Kevin Love, Nobody Is Available For Kevin Love

Mind you, I'm not saying the Cavs will trade for Love without giving up Wiggins. But I'm pretty suspicious of the flurry of reports over the last week or so - it smells an awful lot like Minnesota trying to create a sense of urgency in a market where there was none.
   876. cmd600 Posted: July 24, 2014 at 01:40 PM (#4756989)
From a reliable Cavs beat guy, who would be much more plugged into the Cavs FO than the Wolves FO:

Bottom line: Cavs aren't getting Love without Wiggins. Period.
   877. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: July 24, 2014 at 01:40 PM (#4756991)
Louisville seems like a bizarre expansion choice.
   878. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 24, 2014 at 01:47 PM (#4756994)
Makes more sense to me than OKC, absent other considerations. Basketball hungry state, would be the only pro game in town, nice arena, corporate sponsors already in town.
   879. cmd600 Posted: July 24, 2014 at 01:50 PM (#4756997)
Louisville seems like a bizarre expansion choice.


Has the infrastructure, especially with a brand new arena (built 2010) that holds 22k, in a location that just might get used to this game you call basketball that has no other professional sports teams. Seems like it's Memphis/OKC, with a pre-built arena and a basketball-rabid fan base. Win-win-win.
   880. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 24, 2014 at 01:50 PM (#4756999)
Oh, in minor news - the Thunder are moving their D-League team to OKC. That's surprising to me.
Also, Lowe has a piece up on OKC's drafting Huestis and stashing without signing him in the D-League, one of the more interesting developments (imo) I've seen over the last few months.
   881. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: July 24, 2014 at 01:50 PM (#4757000)
Its success would probably rely on cannibalizing Pacer fandom in the area.
   882. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 24, 2014 at 02:03 PM (#4757013)
Speaking of the D-League (what do you mean that people weren't doing that?) - it will have 18 teams next year. 17 have one-to-one relationships with NBA teams, the other (Fort Wayne) is for the other 13 teams in the NBA (Bucks, Bulls, Clippers, Hawks, Hornets, Nets, Nuggets, Pacers, Pelicans, Raptors, Timberwolves, Trail Blazers, and Wizards).
That is madness.
   883. andrewberg Posted: July 24, 2014 at 02:05 PM (#4757014)
I think some of the BREAKING NEWS in the Love story is simply news cycle churn. I am as guilty as anyone of looking for constant updates, but that demand generates unnecessary supply. The simplest version is still that the Cavs send back something like Wiggins, Bennett, and 1-2 firsts, but it takes time to get all the stakeholders to buy in and to do all the due diligence.

It is not a wildly lopsided trade either way. Love is a great player right now and Lebron needs great players around him as he approaches 30. It is a waste to wait 2-3 years for Wiggins to peak. He needs to work on his shooting and ballhandling. He needs to get stronger and he will need to learn NBA defense. He has the physical tools to be a superstar player, but that is what it takes. The rest of the deal is asset accumulation for a rebuilding team.
   884. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 24, 2014 at 02:10 PM (#4757016)
2 bit of Louisville frivolity (Louisville, iirc, had the highest ratings of any media market for the most recent draft):

Matt Moore (NBC's PBT), from two years ago, talking about Louisville and why the arena could be a problem (owned by UofL - a turnoff for a pro team)

Proposed logos, 'cause logos are fun.
   885. rr Posted: July 24, 2014 at 02:41 PM (#4757039)
I agree with berg on this. I think this is fairly clear-cut and like I said earlier, while I believe James when he says that he wants to help out NE Ohio etc. I also think that he obviously wants more damn rings. Having Love as his #2 guy is almost certainly a better path to that than having Wiggins is; I definitely don't see Wiggins being an immediate All-NBA guy like Jordan or Magic or Bird.

As to Minnesota's POV, Gibson, Butler, Thompson, et al . are all good players, but

a) If things work out, it probably means 2-3 years as a 5-6-seed or so.
b) Wiggins will give Minnesota fans something to get excited about, which I would be aware of if I ran Minnesota. Given that they could not get it done around the two stars the franchise has had, I would rather have the hope/interest of Wiggins as my long-term arc than a pretty decent team lead by Rubio, Gibson, and Pekovic.
   886. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 24, 2014 at 02:49 PM (#4757046)
b) Wiggins will give Minnesota fans something to get excited about, which I would be aware of if I ran Minnesota. Given that they could not get it done around the two stars the franchise has had, I would rather have the hope/interest of Wiggins as my long-term arc than a pretty decent team lead by Rubio, Gibson, and Pekovic.


Yeah. What didn't work out in the latest rebuild (in addition to Khan!!!) was that Rubio has not yet (and may never) found a shooting touch to push him from good to great. With that and fewer injuries the last couple years and everything looks much different. We would be talking about them as a possible team on the rise.

But things never came together, Rubio can't shoot, and injuries and bad mojo in close games (along with the stupid Love extension, of course) means it is rebuild time (Again!). And young is better. Though I admit any playoffs at this point looks pretty good.
   887. MikeOberly Posted: July 24, 2014 at 02:56 PM (#4757055)
I think the Love deal is basically done, they are just trying to make it work under the CBA...I think Cavs are over the cap right now, so I'm sure there are some machinations going on. I don't know anything definite, just reading the tea leaves. As far as I know, Wiggins hasn't signed yet, either, supposedly because he/ his agent feel that Cleveland is a better situation for him than Minny...but he might sign today, who knows.
   888. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 24, 2014 at 02:56 PM (#4757056)
along with the stupid Love extension

That was really stupid.
   889. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 24, 2014 at 02:58 PM (#4757061)
James Harden:
Dwight and I are the cornerstones of the Rockets. The rest of the guys are role players or pieces that complete our team.
   890. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 24, 2014 at 02:59 PM (#4757062)
You also can't trade Wiggins for 30 days after he signs. More importantly (since waiting a month isn't a big deal), what he counts as in terms of salary matching differs before and after signing.
   891. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 24, 2014 at 03:07 PM (#4757068)
Right, and I think the Cavs would rather have his salary counting as a match (it's $0 if he's unsigned).
   892. rr Posted: July 24, 2014 at 03:08 PM (#4757069)
886--

When we were talking about the Wolves about a year or so ago (they seem to come up a lot-heh) I said that I thought a big issue was that they mostly missed on Derrick Williams at 2, Wesley Johnson at 4, and Jonny Flynn at 6. That could happen to any organization--unless it is a guy like James or O'Neal, drafting is tricky. But getting that little return from three high lottery picks really messes up your team-building. Those misses have left them scrambling and spending money to get guys around Love, and between that, bad luck with injuries, and how tough the conference is, things have not worked out for them.
   893. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 24, 2014 at 03:11 PM (#4757072)
But getting that little return from three high lottery picks really messes up your team-building.

And yet Cleveland (Thompson, Waiters, Bennett) might be fine. :)
   894. rr Posted: July 24, 2014 at 03:15 PM (#4757075)
And yet Cleveland (Thompson, Waiters, Bennett) might be fine. :)


Heh. Indeed. You can miss on that many high picks and still build a contender if you win the lottery when LeBron James is in it, get several awesome years out of him, then get him back without giving up any players for him when he is still in his 20s, and if you win the lottery yet again against long odds precisely when a 25-year-old All-Star big wants to change teams. But then, very few NBA owners and execs are as astute as Dan Gilbert is.
   895. kpelton Posted: July 24, 2014 at 03:19 PM (#4757078)
Der K beat me to that line.

Am I alone in thinking the Wolves have a near-zero chance of cracking the playoffs without Love, no matter what package they get in return?
   896. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 24, 2014 at 03:19 PM (#4757079)
I think we've found a corollary to Rickey's "luck is the residue of design" bit.
   897. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 24, 2014 at 03:22 PM (#4757085)
895 - The only reason you might be mistaken, Kevin, is that I've been defending Love and expecting too much from Minnesota for years. They get a nice package, unexpected good health, Rubio learns how to shoot or (less likely) finish - there's always new ways to make me (and others) look stupid.
   898. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 24, 2014 at 03:24 PM (#4757089)
Am I alone in thinking the Wolves have a near-zero chance of cracking the playoffs without Love, no matter what package they get in return?


Not alone, especially since they couldn't make the playoffs WITH him. Well unless there luck goes 180 and Rubio discovers a mad touch with the J and folks stay really healthy (which just ain't happening).

EDIT: Coke for Der-K, in a T-Wolves cup.
   899. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: July 24, 2014 at 03:30 PM (#4757104)
A poster on the Bulls' board at RealGM that is actually a legit source and not some fly by night guy (he's been a member for years and correctly called the Deng trade and McBuckets interest, among others) that says Chicago isn't necessarily talking to Minny about Love, but are possibly involved as a 3rd team with the Cavs. He wouldn't say much more than that but if the trade eventually does go down don't be surprised if Love ends up in Cleveland and another big piece (possibly Wiggans) is headed to Chicago.

Wiggins to the Bulls is an impossibility. He's the centerpiece of the trade for the Wolves. If there's any truth to this, perhaps the Bulls are trying to get Waiters if they like him more than Minnesota or if the Wolves see him as duplicative with LaVine. The Bulls could use another guy who can create off the dribble.

A future 1st round pick certainly has value but maybe not a ton, as none of Cleveland's 1st round picks projects to be in the lottery. Most likely they own a pick around 20, a pick around 25 that they aren't allowed to trade, and a protected pick that would probably convey in 2017.
Cleveland has next year's Miami pick. Plus I think a Memphis one. They traded one to dump Jack/Zeller, right, but I'm not sure why they can't still trade multiple ones.

Yeah, I should've been more explicit. Here's a clearer version of my statement: Most likely the Cavs own a pick around 20 (via Miami), a pick around 25 that they aren't allowed to trade (I believe their own pick can't be traded because they already gave up their 2016 first rounder to Boston and it's theoretically possible that neither the Miami nor Memphis pick will convey before 2017, thus invoking the Stepien Rule), and a protected pick that would probably convey in 2017 (via Memphis, protected 1-5 and 15-30 for the next 2 years and 1-5 through 2018). The West is a gauntlet, so there's a chance Memphis misses the playoffs and gives up its pick this year, but weighing the odds I'd guess this pick is less valuable than Miami's. The Cavs could trade both the Miami and Memphis picks but I think their own first rounders are off limits until at least 2018.



   900. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 24, 2014 at 03:33 PM (#4757108)
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