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Monday, June 02, 2014

OT: Monthly NBA Thread- June 2014

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: Vladimir Putin’s draft strategy, Stephen Drew’s breakfast, and whether Kevin has taken a material step toward harming Russell Westbrook.

andrewberg Posted: June 02, 2014 at 07:57 PM | 2043 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nba, off-topic

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   301. rr Posted: June 07, 2014 at 10:41 PM (#4721161)
President, part-owner and new coach Flip Saunders said Saturday that star forward Kevin Love has no right to be frustrated over the Minnesota Timberwolves' lack of recent success.

"Just like I told (Kevin) Garnett, he didn't have a right to be frustrated," Saunders said during an interview with KFAN 100.3 in Minneapolis-St. Paul. "Why does any player have a right to be frustrated? You're either part of the problem or part of the solution.

"Should the team be frustrated? Yeah, the team can be frustrated. But I don't think any one individual should be frustrated."

Saunders pointed to a moment early in Garnett's career that stood out to him.

"I tell a story about -- we were in the locker room when KG was in like his third year in the league, and Sam Mitchell was sitting in the locker room," Saunders said. "KG was in there, and we had lost a couple games, and we were all sitting there talking.

"KG started going, 'Hey, you've got to start doing more.' And he's talking to some of the bench guys. 'You've got to start doing more.' And Sam said, 'Hey, hold it, hold it. Let me tell you something. You're making all the money. Hey, it's your responsibility. You make the money, you've got to live up to that.' So, that was the mentality, and from that time, KG never ever from that point, he always took responsibility."


link
   302. kpelton Posted: June 07, 2014 at 10:42 PM (#4721162)
Was curious, so here are the heights and weights for starting NBA centers in 1962:
Bill Russell, BOS: 6-10, 215
Walt Bellamy, CHI: 6-11, 225
Wayne Embry, CIN: 6-8, 240
Walter Dukes, DET: 7-0, 220
Ray Felix, LAL: 6-11, 220
Phil Jordon, NYK: 6-10, 205
Wilt Chamberlain, PHI: 7-1, 275
Clyde Lovellette, STL: 6-9, 234
Red Kerr, SYR: 6-9, 230

That's an average of 6-10.4, 231. Chris Bosh is listed at 6-10, 228. Kevin Garnett is 6-11, 220. Dirk Nowitzki is 7-0, 237. Kevin Durant is 6-9, 240, which means if these measurements are to be taken literally he's as heavy as anyone in the non-Wilt division at that point.

But if the fundamental argument is that Wilt is a freak, this is certainly consistent with that (and I'm not sure who exactly disagrees).
   303. theboyqueen Posted: June 07, 2014 at 11:32 PM (#4721175)
The center position is not defined by height and weight. It's defined by what you do on offense and defense. If Kevin Durant and Wayne Embry are on one team, and Demarcus Cousins is on the other team, Wayne Embry is guarding Demarcus (and vice versa) whether this is 1962 or 2014.
   304. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: June 07, 2014 at 11:42 PM (#4721178)
[303] You seem to be missing the point. Those guys, who are C size, would be trained to do traditional C things and would not have been allowed to develop the way they did in the modern era. Therefore, what they do/did on offense and defense would be C things.
   305. King Mekong Posted: June 08, 2014 at 12:39 AM (#4721191)
Something else I've not seen mentioned is the effect on talent that an increase in jobs has. I seem to recall a study (maybe in baseball?) that suggested that there is a lag after expansion that is eventually filled with more talent. I'll see if I can find the link later.
   306. theboyqueen Posted: June 08, 2014 at 02:05 AM (#4721215)
You seem to be missing the point. Those guys, who are C size, would be trained to do traditional C things and would not have been allowed to develop the way they did in the modern era. Therefore, what they do/did on offense and defense would be C things.


If that's the point it's completely speculative. Why do you believe this? Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Bob McAdoo, and Moses Malone were all somewhere around 6'9"/220 but they all played different positions. Why weren't Magic and Bird "trained" to do center things?

To assume that Kevin Durant would have been made into a center in any era is to assume that the coaches of said era are complete idiots. His skills have nothing to do with the center position. I also don't believe he weighs more than any of the abovementioned guys, despite his listed weight.

There simply were no players like Durant or Nowitzki in the league in 1968. There are no players like Chamberlain or Jabbar now. Duncan is probably the closest thing.
   307. Spivey Posted: June 08, 2014 at 01:25 PM (#4721305)
I thought we were so close to having everyone just agree to ignore Kevin.
   308. GordonShumway Posted: June 08, 2014 at 01:41 PM (#4721310)
If that's the point it's completely speculative. Why do you believe this? Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Bob McAdoo, and Moses Malone were all somewhere around 6'9"/220 but they all played different positions. Why weren't Magic and Bird "trained" to do center things?


Well, this whole exercise is completely speculative; that's why it's fun :)

To assume that Kevin Durant would have been made into a center in any era is to assume that the coaches of said era are complete idiots.


Basketball in 1958 didn't have a 3 point shot, and Durant's skills would be a lot less valuable given the rules of the game at the time. Conversely, the value of a space eating, rim-protecting big man was even greater than today. Even if Durant isn't best-suited to be a C, I think most coaches would force him to play like one.

Also, aside from Red, a lot of the coaches of 1958 were idiots. Pro basketball in 1958 was still a relatively new and unproven enterprise, and a lot of the coaches were learning as they went and just going by the seat of their pants. More importantly, given the financial constraints of the league at the time, a coach didn't have time to focus his energies on just coaching. A coach had to wear many hats which distracted him from his coaching duties - a coach was quite often also a GM, a scout, a promoter, a traveling secretary, a press secretary, and a bookkeeper as well.


There simply were no players like Durant or Nowitzki in the league in 1968. There are no players like Chamberlain or Jabbar now. Duncan is probably the closest thing.


I think it's no accident that there was no Duncan, Nowitzki, or Durant in 1958. Duncan, Nowitzki, and Durant are respectively turning 38, 36, and 26 this year. Make them 56 years older, and they would have been born in 1920, 1922, and 1932.

Duncan, as a lightly-regarded high school prospect (163rd in his class) and from the Virgin Islands, would have never been visited or recruited by college coaches - as he was by Dave Odom at Wake Forest and Rick Barnes at Xavier. Air travel was a lot pricier and more dangerous in the 1930s, and college recruiting budgets were much lower. In all likelihood, if he did play sports, he probably would chosen swimming or volleyball. Also, even if he did play college basketball, it would probably be without any ambitions to play pro league ball, as such a league didn't exist until he would turn 26.

Nowitzki most likely would have died in Stalingrad or Leningrad. Even if we assume he survived the war, the problem is that Germany didn't have any basketball programs of note at the high school, college, or pro level at that time. Even if Dirk somehow developed his skills independently of any basketball institutions in Germany, no college coach would have flown all the way to Germany to scout a guy in the 1930s unless the guy had Wilt-level talent. Neither would any NBA coach, given their budget limitations. Someone of his size, would again most like have been a swimmer or volleyball player.

As for Durant, he would have grown up in 1930s-40s America where the main glamour sports for African-Americans were boxing, track and field, and the Negro Leagues. Would Durant have put in the thousands of hours of practice in basketball he did as a youth if he was born 56 years earlier, or would his athletic abilities be focused elsewhere? This is even more speculative, but I'm guessing he probably would not have developed into the player he is today, if he was born in 1932. Given his long legs and leaping ability, I could easily see Durant being an Olympic high jumper back in the day.













   309. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: June 08, 2014 at 05:13 PM (#4721428)
I think it's no accident that there was no Duncan, Nowitzki, or Durant in 1958. Duncan, Nowitzki, and Durant are respectively turning 38, 36, and 26 this year. Make them 56 years older, and they would have been born in 1920, 1922, and 1932.
The culture of basketball's changed over the last half-century. The game used to be played inside-out and controlling the paint was the only way to win, so you wanted tall guys near the basket. Over the last 20-some years, that's changed. First Magic, then Jordan, then Bryant, then James all proved you can build your team around a perimeter player and win, not just one, but multiple championships. Rim protection's still important, of course, but we no longer demand that tall guys make their living with a back-to-the-basket game in the post.
   310. theboyqueen Posted: June 08, 2014 at 05:17 PM (#4721432)
I'm with you on Nowitzki, but even in 1958 if you are 6'10" and athletic (and especially if you are a black American) I'm pretty sure pro basketball is somewhere on your radar. I can't imagine there were a hell of a lot of other career opportunities for you. There are more now, I'm sure (for instance, pitching).

Duncan and Mikan seem like pretty good comps, come to think of it.

Hell, Chamberlain coming up today might with his speed, strength, and stamina might end up becoming a wide receiver or tight end. Maybe he's a soccer player. There is no way stuff like that was happening in the '50s.
   311. theboyqueen Posted: June 08, 2014 at 05:23 PM (#4721437)
The culture of basketball's changed over the last half-century. The game used to be played inside-out and controlling the paint was the only way to win, so you wanted tall guys near the basket.


I am not arguing with this. I am arguing that Nowitzki and especially Durant (like Magic) would not have been effective playing like this, and would have adapted into roles similar to the ones they have now. Durant is just not a very strong guy.

Remember that Nowitzki and Durant themselves are unprecedented players; they are not the product of some evolutionary system, they are mutations that changed the system to account for them.
   312. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:02 PM (#4721462)
Remember that Nowitzki and Durant themselves are unprecedented players; they are not the product of some evolutionary system, they are mutations that changed the system to account for them.


I think that this is underestimating the ways in which basketball has evolved over the past few decades, and the ways that has opened the floor up for players like Nowitzki and Durant. The three point shot, as the game has slowly understood its value, has exerted a gravitational pull away from the paint. For all that Nowitzki and Durant are unprecedented (they are, but all of the all-time greats are unprecedented), they are also products of a time when the jumpshot shifted from an offensive tool to be used when the low post didn't work to the focal point of an offense. If Dirk or KD had come up in a decade or more earlier, they would have had a steady progression of coaches yelling at them to get back on the block when they stepped out to shoot. No player is self-made, they are what they make of their talent, but also what a coach sees in them and pushes them to be. 50s/60s/70s/80s Dirk probably has a sweet, sweet hook shot with plenty of range (and some #######' knee pads), but doesn't range outside the midrange. Durant was 6'2" until his senior year of high school, but he also would have had four years in college to mold his game to his height. Would he be a perimeter player like he is now, or Magic was in the 80s? It's entirely possible, but hardly a sure thing. Every player is the product of an evolutionary system. They seem inevitable because we only know them in the context of their time, with the skills their development gave them, but that doesn't mean they would be the same player at a different time.
   313. GregD Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:06 PM (#4721463)
Hell, Chamberlain coming up today might with his speed, strength, and stamina might end up becoming a wide receiver or tight end. Maybe he's a soccer player. There is no way stuff like that was happening in the '50s.
I'm sure Chamberlain could do whatever he wanted to do. I suspect he would still be a basketball player and that there would be hard to pin down stories about his potential prowess in football. As appealing as it is to imagine him plucking passes out of the sky, I have a hard time picturing him giving up an obvious NBA fortune for the injury-riddled chance at the NFL.

If he were a freshman in high school, teams would be setting up tanking plans now to make sure they were in position to tank at the proper moment.
   314. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:24 PM (#4721470)
No question, but Wilt may well be the most remarkable athlete who ever lived. He's a 7 foot tall guy who could run the 100-yard dash in 10.9 seconds, shot-put 56 feet, triple jump more than 50 feet, competed in the 440, and and who won the Big 8 high jump(!) title three straight years. He was also the strongest player of his generation and maybe ever.


He was also a pretty fair Volleyball player.
   315. Publius Publicola Posted: June 08, 2014 at 08:22 PM (#4721549)
Duncan's just incredible.
   316. sardonic Posted: June 08, 2014 at 08:51 PM (#4721567)
James is playing out of his mind on both ends right now.
   317. GregD Posted: June 08, 2014 at 08:52 PM (#4721568)
Boris Diaw is my hero
   318. tshipman Posted: June 08, 2014 at 09:14 PM (#4721579)
Mark Jackson with a great point about Duncan never talking to rookies.

If possibly any other player in the NBA did that, they would have a terrible rep. But, of course, Duncan "plays the game the right way" so he is immune from criticism.
   319. starving to death with a full STEAGLES Posted: June 08, 2014 at 09:17 PM (#4721581)

Duncan's just incredible.
James is playing out of his mind on both ends right now.
Boris Diaw is my hero

i like mike.
   320. sardonic Posted: June 08, 2014 at 09:55 PM (#4721590)
For all of James' heroics, Miami is only up 3... pretty incredible.
   321. theboyqueen Posted: June 08, 2014 at 09:57 PM (#4721591)
This is just incredible basketball.
   322. tshipman Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:19 PM (#4721598)
That's a pretty weak flagrant foul. Parker had his hand in there, which caused the foul.

Edit: I guess ball don't lie.
   323. RollingWave Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:23 PM (#4721600)
I totally don't understand how the Spurs are still in this game.

   324. tshipman Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:25 PM (#4721603)
I totally don't understand how the Spurs are still in this game.


They haven't turned the ball over, they're +5 on offensive boards and +6 on 3pers.
   325. sardonic Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:30 PM (#4721605)
Man what's happened to the Heat offense... it can't just be LeBron hero ball at the end of the shot clock if they want to win.
   326. JJ1986 Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:37 PM (#4721608)
Let's pause a great game for a five-minute review! The NBA has to stop this.
   327. sardonic Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:39 PM (#4721609)
And somehow they still managed to uphold the original incorrect call...
   328. tshipman Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:42 PM (#4721613)
What a pass from Bosh on the last MIA possession.
   329. RollingWave Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:43 PM (#4721614)
Man what's happened to the Heat offense... it can't just be LeBron hero ball at the end of the shot clock if they want to win.
And yet barring a miracle they did win, wow
   330. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:51 PM (#4721617)
Man what's happened to the Heat offense... it can't just be LeBron hero ball at the end of the shot clock if they want to win.

And yet barring a miracle they did win, wow
Let's make sure. After all, we've been told that this type of offense never wins.
   331. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 08, 2014 at 11:04 PM (#4721619)
An offense that has LeBron James on it wins most of the time.

I don't know enough about basketball to reliably tell bad offense from good defense, but based on my observations and feeble comprehension, I didn't find Miami's offensive tactics very impressive.
   332. sardonic Posted: June 08, 2014 at 11:35 PM (#4721627)
Man what's happened to the Heat offense... it can't just be LeBron hero ball at the end of the shot clock if they want to win.


To be fair, they did seem to get back into their offense after that possession. It's just odd that on that one critical possession under two minutes left they went away from their offensive identity to clear out an ISO for LBJ.
   333. rr Posted: June 08, 2014 at 11:39 PM (#4721629)
This James guy is pretty good, but he needs to work on his f-u edge and his killer instinct.
   334. theboyqueen Posted: June 08, 2014 at 11:46 PM (#4721632)
Miami doesn't need offensive tactics when Lebron, Bosh, Wade, and Ray Allen are playing like they did in the 4th quarter. There is nothing really left to say about Lebron at this point, but man Bosh was good today.
   335. theboyqueen Posted: June 08, 2014 at 11:46 PM (#4721633)
Also those 4 missed foul shots in a row by Parker and Duncan were terrible for the Spurs. That could have been a huge swing.
   336. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: June 09, 2014 at 12:21 AM (#4721644)
Also those 4 missed foul shots in a row by Parker and Duncan were terrible for the Spurs. That could have been a huge swing.
So, does anyone look at those four missed free throws by Duncan and Parker and think, "What a pair of chokers!"? Can you imagine the hue and cry if Lebron had done that?
   337. theboyqueen Posted: June 09, 2014 at 12:36 AM (#4721647)
If the Spurs made their foul shots last year they would have won the title.
   338. MikeOberly Posted: June 09, 2014 at 03:26 AM (#4721665)
So, does anyone look at those four missed free throws by Duncan and Parker and think, "What a pair of chokers!"? Can you imagine the hue and cry if Lebron had done that?


I suppose, but that comes with being the highest profile player. And yeah, those misses were killer. Might have been the difference in the game.
   339. Publius Publicola Posted: June 09, 2014 at 08:35 AM (#4721678)
I think those misses were the difference. I can understand Parker missing (it looked like he got the wind knocked out of him) and Duncan looked gassed down the stretch. Besides the freebies, he missed a couple of around the rim bunnies he usually makes.
   340. Spivey Posted: June 09, 2014 at 09:40 AM (#4721709)
LeBron was out of control last night. He's so damn good.
   341. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: June 09, 2014 at 12:24 PM (#4721853)
Short refs call more fouls.

The question is, do the findings hold if Joey Crawford is removed from the data set?
   342. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 09, 2014 at 12:37 PM (#4721863)
So that's why Billy Crystal was such a bad ref in Forget Paris!
   343. andrewberg Posted: June 09, 2014 at 12:48 PM (#4721872)
Bosh has been really good this series and the last. The Heat play a very unique defensive style where they do not anchor themselves in the paint at all and just recover downward to help if a threat gets into the paint. It helps them a great deal with regard to pushing out the PNRs and guarding the three point line. I think it only works because Bosh is so mobile for a guy his size. He covers a TON of ground defensively- probably more than any other guy playing center in these playoffs. The way he traps PNRs, recovers to the paint, rotates on shooters, and even passably defends Duncan with his back to the basket is something that nobody else in the NBA does.
   344. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: June 09, 2014 at 12:54 PM (#4721874)
So, does anyone look at those four missed free throws by Duncan and Parker and think, "What a pair of chokers!"? Can you imagine the hue and cry if Lebron had done that?


I was absolutely thinking this at the time. Parker may still have been recovering from the blow (which I agree was a weak flagrant), but this was absolutely a choke in a pivotal moment... 4 missed free throws and then an LBJ 3 was a 7 point swing.
   345. Publius Publicola Posted: June 09, 2014 at 12:57 PM (#4721879)
but this was absolutely a choke in a pivotal moment


This is just as incorrrect as the lebron's a choker thing. Parker just had the wind knocked out of him and had to be taken out of the game immediately after the second miss. And are you really claiming that Duncan's a choker? Really?

C'mon, man. Two wrongs don't make a right.
   346. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 09, 2014 at 01:08 PM (#4721888)
And are you really claiming that Duncan's a choker? Really?

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but it's really annoying that the LeBron BS narratives have collapsed an action and someone's "character". Are Duncan and Parker chokers (whatever that means)? Of course not. Was missing those four consecutive free throws a choke in a pivotal moment? Of course it was.
   347. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: June 09, 2014 at 01:14 PM (#4721898)
Are Duncan and Parker chokers (whatever that means)? Of course not. Was missing those four consecutive free throws a choke in a pivotal moment? Of course it was.


Yeah, this one. Clutch actions exist even if clutch players don't. I'm not arguing they have predictive value but these missed free throws were very impactful to the game. It's like WPA, it's not a predictive stat but if you want to measure actual contributions to winning/losing it's the best one.

(and to clarify, I wasn't thinking "man, Parker and Duncan are chokers", I was thinking "man, Parker and Duncan choked".)
   348. AROM Posted: June 09, 2014 at 01:36 PM (#4721911)
Wayne Embry, CIN: 6-8, 240


That must be his college, or even high school weight. Embry was a widebody. I'd guess 260-275 for his actual NBA playing weight. Post career he looked to be well over 300.
   349. theboyqueen Posted: June 09, 2014 at 01:45 PM (#4721917)
Isn't missing foul shots at the end of a winnable game kind of choking by definition? If not, what is? Nobody is saying Duncan doesn't belong in the hall of fame because of this, but it's entirely possible that he wins one or two (depending on what happens this year) more titles if he's a more reliable free throw shooter. He's also been looking much better at the beginning of games than at the ends of them, which given his age is hardly surprising.

I'm actually surprised nobody has tried hack a Duncan at the ends of games, given how efficient the Spurs offense can be especially when they are hitting threes.
   350. theboyqueen Posted: June 09, 2014 at 01:47 PM (#4721919)
And yeah, if Wayne Embry and Kevin Durant are the same weight then I'm the Sultan of Brunei.
   351. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: June 09, 2014 at 01:53 PM (#4721922)
[350] Part of the issue there too is that Durant is more like 7'0" than he is 6'9"
   352. andrewberg Posted: June 09, 2014 at 01:55 PM (#4721925)
At one point this postseason, one of the announcers said that Durant is 7'1. I think that is a bit aggressive, but he is sooooo much taller than he is listed. He towers over Perkins.
   353. theboyqueen Posted: June 09, 2014 at 01:55 PM (#4721927)
Durant would have to be 8 feet tall to be the same weight as Wayne Embry.
   354. Publius Publicola Posted: June 09, 2014 at 01:59 PM (#4721932)
He's also been looking much better at the beginning of games than at the ends of them, which given his age is hardly surprising.


Then the argument would be that he's a choker because he let fatique get the best of him.

What did Vince Lombardi say about fatigue and cowardice?
   355. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: June 09, 2014 at 02:03 PM (#4721937)
Isn't missing foul shots at the end of a winnable game kind of choking by definition? If not, what is? Nobody is saying Duncan doesn't belong in the hall of fame because of this, but it's entirely possible that he wins one or two (depending on what happens this year) more titles if he's a more reliable free throw shooter. He's also been looking much better at the beginning of games than at the ends of them, which given his age is hardly surprising.

Duncan also missed the layup last year in game 7; if he was ever going to hear any "choking" stuff it was going to be then. Guess the key is to win a title as a rookie, then you're immune to that garbage your entire career.
   356. Publius Publicola Posted: June 09, 2014 at 02:12 PM (#4721946)
Guess the key is to win a title as a rookie, then you're immune to that garbage your entire career.


As a rookie, then 3 more should pretty much do it.

I would think Lebron would be past that as well, though he's "only" won two so far.
   357. Booey Posted: June 09, 2014 at 03:12 PM (#4722002)
Guess the key is to win a title as a rookie, then you're immune to that garbage your entire career.


Nitpicking, but Duncan actually won his first title in his 2nd season. I think the larger point is true, though. Win early and you'll never have to worry about the choker narrative, no matter how the rest of your career plays out.

(not that Duncan deserves that label, obviously)
   358. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: June 09, 2014 at 03:52 PM (#4722041)
Nitpicking, but Duncan actually won his first title in his 2nd season. I think the larger point is true, though. Win early and you'll never have to worry about the choker narrative, no matter how the rest of your career plays out.

They also won in Parker's second year. But Manu was a rookie! So, uh, it wasn't supposed to be a literal theory, gosh.
   359. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: June 09, 2014 at 04:04 PM (#4722057)
Phil Jordon, NYK: 6-10, 205

Interesting facts about Phil Jordon:

- He was half Native American (Nomlaki, same as Kyle Lohse)
- He went to Whitworth College. One of three NBA players to come from Whitworth College. What is Whitworth College?
- He was the Knicks' starting center in 1962, but was out sick on the day of Wilt Chamberlain's 100-point game against them.
- He died at age 31 in a boating accident.
   360. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: June 09, 2014 at 04:15 PM (#4722072)
Before finalizing a contract extension with the University of Kentucky late last week, John Calipari had gone deep in discussions with the Cleveland Cavaliers on a seven-year, $60 million-plus contract to become president and coach, sources told Yahoo Sports.


Yowzers. I've also seen people say $80mil. I mean, wow.

More:

After reaching the NCAA championship game in April, Kentucky will return as a clear-cut No. 1 in the preseason college polls. Once the Harrison twins – Andrew and Aaron – made decisions to return to Kentucky as sophomores in late April, it became a more difficult proposition to lure Calipari out of his job, sources said. With the Harrison twins staying, Kentucky will return nearly 60 percent of its scoring – despite losing two projected lottery picks to the NBA draft in Julius Randle and James Young.

Around Calipari, there is a strong belief that he would've landed in Cleveland had those key players decided to turn professional this year.


I sure hope it had more to do with the contract UK gave him than that.
   361. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 09, 2014 at 04:37 PM (#4722091)
I am dumbfounded trying to understand why anybody thinks John Calipari is a property of any value to an NBA team.
   362. jmurph Posted: June 09, 2014 at 04:55 PM (#4722104)
I don't get the Calipari NBA love, either. He's clearly a great recruiter, and, from the outside, appears to be great at getting his players to play hard and play together. Which are all assets, absolutely, but it seems the entire model is built on the idea that "if you follow me, I can get you to the NBA." And while unlike many I have no philosophical objection to that, I think it's great, I don't get how that translates to the pro game.
   363. rr Posted: June 09, 2014 at 05:02 PM (#4722107)
Choking: I suppose the question there, if there is one, is whether the moment caused Duncan and Parker to shoot differently, think too much, lose form, etc, or if, as seems much more likely, they just missed. Duncan's career FT% is .694; his career playoff FT% is .691. This year, he was .731 for the season and is at .762 for the postseason. Parker is .752 and .725 career. Parker is at 69% at the line 40/58 this year. He was 78 and 81% the last two tears.

So, one obvious thing--neither of them has ever been an excellent FT shooter on a career basis. Also, PP mentioned Duncan's being "gassed." Duncan averaged 29.4 MPG this year; last night, he went 38.

In any case, Duncan and Parker went a combined 7/14 at the line last night--clearly an important number.

   364. rr Posted: June 09, 2014 at 05:03 PM (#4722108)


   365. GregD Posted: June 09, 2014 at 05:08 PM (#4722111)
I am dumbfounded trying to understand why anybody thinks John Calipari is a property of any value to an NBA team.
1) it's Cleveland. They do silly stuff
2) He's a big-name hire so it's lots of free publicity at the start. He's one of the handful of coaches you could put on a billboard. Maybe he increases season-ticket sales.
3) Theoretically--I doubt this--he's obvious ability to communicate well with players might translate into recruiting them. I have no doubt he's got a great relationship with lots of players in the league, both his own and not his own. But I don't see a player picking based on a coach.
4) Cleveland may have had some fantasy he could lure LeBron since he and LeBron are somewhere between close acquaintances and actual friends and LeBron visits him in Lexington a couple of times a year. But obviously that isn't happening.
   366. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: June 09, 2014 at 05:12 PM (#4722113)
Cleveland may have had some fantasy he could lure LeBron since he and LeBron are somewhere between close acquaintances and actual friends and LeBron visits him in Lexington a couple of times a year. But obviously that isn't happening.

At one point during the summer of the Decision, Validation was linked to the Bulls via CAA/WorldWideWes along with LBJ. So that's probably part of the reason.
   367. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 09, 2014 at 05:12 PM (#4722114)
Derek Fisher has agreed to become the head coach of the New York Knickerbockers
   368. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 09, 2014 at 05:14 PM (#4722115)
It's hardly free publicity. It costs $70 million, and the return is however many extra season tickets you sell right now, for 2014-15, on account of Calipari's presence. Your ticket sales after that will revert to depending on whether or not your team's any good.

People dreaming that LeBron might return to Cleveland are forgetting two very important things:

(1) LeBron went out of his way--and that's putting it very mildly--to leave a smoking crater behind when he left.

(2) It's ####### Cleveland.
   369. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 09, 2014 at 05:15 PM (#4722116)
I am dumbfounded trying to understand why anybody thinks John Calipari is a property of any value to an NBA team.


He won 43 games with a pretty blah Nets team. Keith Van Horn and Sam Cassell were their big offensive weapons!

He'd sell tickets and I think he's probably underrated as a coach - people assume he just rolls a ball out there, but it isn't true. Players seem to like him. That all has value.
   370. andrewberg Posted: June 09, 2014 at 05:16 PM (#4722117)
Also, PP mentioned Duncan's being "gassed." Duncan averaged 29.4 MPG this year; last night, he went 38.


Anecdotally, this seems like a big deal. My ability to shoot free throws accurately has always precipitously declined as I have become tired. I know pro athletes are more conditioned to do it, but I think it has some effect.
   371. andrewberg Posted: June 09, 2014 at 05:18 PM (#4722119)
Also, $60m for Calipari is a lot, but you have to compare it to what you would pay replacement coach X and replacement GM Y over that same amount of time. They'd probably end up paying him a smallish premium over replacement management staff, though I do question whether he would be worth any premium.
   372. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: June 09, 2014 at 05:26 PM (#4722123)
Derek Fisher has agreed to become the head coach of the New York Knickerbockers

The New York Knicks have an agreement in place with Derek Fisher to become the team's next coach, according to reports.

The two sides are in the process of finalizing a five-year, $25 million deal, according to Yahoo! Sports.


Phil didn't want to give Kerr 5 years, right? That's a pretty big raise over his last few years as a player (I forget he got that biggish deal from the Warriors, otherwise I was ready to point out, like Kerr, he's finally cashing in after retiring; he made almost $64mil as a player).

And from the lounge, I joked that Scott Brooks is still going to play him at end of games next season. He just won’t realize Fisher isn’t there, and the Thunder will literally be playing 4 on 5 (so maybe an improvement?).
   373. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: June 09, 2014 at 06:05 PM (#4722145)
And from the lounge, I joked that Scott Brooks is still going to play him at end of games next season. He just won’t realize Fisher isn’t there, and the Thunder will literally be playing 4 on 5 (so maybe an improvement?).
But then who will guard Tim Duncan!
   374. GregD Posted: June 09, 2014 at 06:06 PM (#4722146)
Also, $60m for Calipari is a lot, but you have to compare it to what you would pay replacement coach X and replacement GM Y over that same amount of time. They'd probably end up paying him a smallish premium over replacement management staff, though I do question whether he would be worth any premium.
This is true. Apparently the going rate for starting coaches is now $5 million a year based on Kerr/Fisher, so the marginal cost of Calipari is $3 million over someone else. Obviously it is different if you are comparing to an assistant who isn't seen as a rising star. I would guess Pat Ewing would be available notably cheaper.
   375. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: June 09, 2014 at 06:07 PM (#4722148)
But then who will guard Tim Duncan!

Are you implying the Cavs are going to hire Kendrick Perkins as their coach?
   376. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 09, 2014 at 06:17 PM (#4722153)
Are you implying the Cavs are going to hire Kendrick Perkins as their coach?

My god, those sideline interviews would be spectacular.
   377. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: June 09, 2014 at 06:33 PM (#4722162)
Are you implying the Cavs are going to hire Kendrick Perkins as their coach?
At this point, Perkins is more likely to coach the Cavs than he is to guard Tim Duncan.
   378. Publius Publicola Posted: June 09, 2014 at 07:54 PM (#4722187)
Validation would have been about as effective of a president/coach as Pitino was. IOW, Validation the president would undermine Validation the coach.

Really, the key to him is his ability to recruit. Since they have a draft in the NBA, his biggest asset would be taken away.
   379. Publius Publicola Posted: June 09, 2014 at 07:57 PM (#4722189)
Also wondering if Screamin' A is going to go off on the Fisher signing like he did the Kerr signing. Screamin' made all kinds of noise about Kerr not being a coaching property worthy of that kind of compensation because he had no prior HC experience. Now that Fisher got as similar deal, what will he have to say about a brotha with similar lack of experience?
   380. OCF Posted: June 09, 2014 at 08:02 PM (#4722192)
Anecdotally, this seems like a big deal. My ability to shoot free throws accurately has always precipitously declined as I have become tired. I know pro athletes are more conditioned to do it, but I think it has some effect.

In the case of Parker, remember also that he had just been elbowed in the ribs (on his shooting side, I think) and was clearly still in some pain. I can see that having an effect on the FT stroke.
   381. Publius Publicola Posted: June 09, 2014 at 08:08 PM (#4722197)
Yeah, and he got hit on the right side too, his shooting hand side. If he had any rib pain, raising his arm above his head must have hurt like crazy.
   382. baudib Posted: June 09, 2014 at 09:09 PM (#4722217)
Hi guys. LTNP.

I'm sure I missed a ton of discussion on this: What is the consensus on the value of the +/- numbers at bbref?
   383. EddieA Posted: June 09, 2014 at 09:25 PM (#4722226)
Wade was fined $5000 for his flop last night, which was actually a key play in the game as it sent Ginobili to the bench with his third foul and Wade got two free throws.
What would have happened if they had called a flagrant and reviewed that? Can they reverse the call to no foul at all? Could they give Wade a technical.
   384. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 09, 2014 at 09:31 PM (#4722228)
LOL, $5000. That's like 15 bucks of my salary.
   385. madvillain Posted: June 09, 2014 at 09:43 PM (#4722232)
LOL, $5000. That's like 15 bucks of my salary.


That one might have been worse then the Bosh flop on Boozer a few years ago. That fine sure doesn't jive with the NBA's supposed crack down on flopping. If you want to put your your money where your mouth is start fining these guys 50k a flop, that's a decent night out at the casino and will start getting their attention.

Wade makes 18.6 million. 5k is 1/3720 of his salary.

Pretty accurate there PASTE, assuming you make around 60k a year, which hey, isn't bad money but it's no 18.6 million. At 50k a year, the fine would be 13 bucks.


-----------------------------

Also wondering if Screamin' A is going to go off on the Fisher signing like he did the Kerr signing. Screamin' made all kinds of noise about Kerr not being a coaching property worthy of that kind of compensation because he had no prior HC experience. Now that Fisher got as similar deal, what will he have to say about a brotha with similar lack of experience?


NBA owners cannot ####### help themselves. 25 million for Fisher? Derek Fisher? The Derek Fisher of ZERO coaching experience past maybe his nephew's middle school team? Unreal. It's pretty obvious that Jackson and the Knicks are desperate, and a desperate Jim Dolan is music to the ears of anyone he's talking to.
   386. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 09, 2014 at 09:50 PM (#4722238)
Even $50,000 at Wade's salary is less than a speeding ticket at mine--and that certainly does not dissuade anyone from routinely speeding.

A fine against an NBA veteran would have to get to $500,000 before he even notices. If the league is serious about flopping, suspensions are the only thing that will work. Otherwise it's all just make-believe.

EDIT: Simply changing the record after the fact would be fine, too--in the case of obvious flopping (and horseshit behavior like Wade faking being hit in the face by Ginoboli) the video can easily be consulted before the free throws are finished. If it was a flop, take back the foul and call a technical on the guilty party. Stop rewarding the practice and players will stop engaging in it.

The NBA, like the NHL, does not actually care about flopping/diving.
   387. Publius Publicola Posted: June 09, 2014 at 10:01 PM (#4722242)
I'd back the make-up call. It was derided at the time but it really was an effective break on flopping. If I was a ref for the next game, I'd just blow a couple of cheapies early. He'd get the message real fast.
   388. MikeOberly Posted: June 09, 2014 at 10:17 PM (#4722246)
EDIT: Simply changing the record after the fact would be fine, too--in the case of obvious flopping (and horseshit behavior like Wade faking being hit in the face by Ginoboli) the video can easily be consulted before the free throws are finished. If it was a flop, take back the foul and call a technical on the guilty party. Stop rewarding the practice and players will stop engaging in it.


+infinity. It is so easy to put a stop to a lot of this garbage. All it would take is one look on the Wade play, and it's obvious. Stop rewarding this BS.
   389. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 09, 2014 at 10:24 PM (#4722251)
I would guess Pat Ewing would be available notably cheaper.


Vinnie del Negro will pay YOU to let him coach again!
   390. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 09, 2014 at 10:26 PM (#4722252)

Also wondering if Screamin' A is going to go off on the Fisher signing like he did the Kerr signing. Screamin' made all kinds of noise about Kerr not being a coaching property worthy of that kind of compensation because he had no prior HC experience. Now that Fisher got as similar deal, what will he have to say about a brotha with similar lack of experience?


I wonder if this is a trend now. You see it a bit in baseball with Mike Matheny and Robin Ventura. Now in the NBA you have Derek Fisher and Steve Kerr to go with Mark Jackson and Jason Kidd. I can't see it happening in the NFL.
   391. theboyqueen Posted: June 09, 2014 at 10:46 PM (#4722259)
Simply changing the record after the fact would be fine, too--in the case of obvious flopping (and horseshit behavior like Wade faking being hit in the face by Ginoboli) the video can easily be consulted before the free throws are finished. If it was a flop, take back the foul and call a technical on the guilty party. Stop rewarding the practice and players will stop engaging in it.


This would be the greatest use of replay ever. And it would never be used, as nobody would flop if this were the workflow.

The game is so beautiful right now, so full of amazing players, and flopping is the one glaring stain.

Who are the guys who don't flop? I don't have any recollection of Kobe doing it, for one.
   392. Publius Publicola Posted: June 09, 2014 at 10:56 PM (#4722268)
KG doesn't flop. dirk doesn't flop. CP and Blake don't flop. The only thing I don't like about LeBron is his flopping. It Should be beneath him

Kobe might not flop but he kicks his leg out when he shoots, hoping for contact that results in FTs.
   393. JJ1986 Posted: June 09, 2014 at 11:00 PM (#4722270)
CP and Blake don't flop.


Chandler Parsons and Steve Blake?
   394. GordonShumway Posted: June 09, 2014 at 11:21 PM (#4722281)
KG doesn't flop. dirk doesn't flop. CP and Blake don't flop. The only thing I don't like about LeBron is his flopping. It Should be beneath him

Kobe might not flop but he kicks his leg out when he shoots, hoping for contact that results in FTs.


Is it just me, or does it seems like Lebron started flopping a lot more after Shane Battier, the Lew Alcindor of flopping in NCAA ball, joined the Heat?
   395. kpelton Posted: June 09, 2014 at 11:29 PM (#4722285)
- He went to Whitworth College. One of three NBA players to come from Whitworth College. What is Whitworth College?


Small private school in Spokane. I had no idea of the NBA pedigree. I guess it was the Gonzaga of its day?

I'm not arguing they have predictive value but these missed free throws were very impactful to the game. It's like WPA, it's not a predictive stat but if you want to measure actual contributions to winning/losing it's the best one.


By WPA the impact was big but hardly game-changing. Inpredictable.com has the Spurs at 70.7% to win when the flagrant was called on Chalmers and 59.2% after Duncan's second miss. Certainly felt like a momentum swing, but nobody remembers if San Antonio plays well down the stretch. Ginobili's turnover had a similar impact on the win probability.

Really, the key to him is his ability to recruit. Since they have a draft in the NBA, his biggest asset would be taken away.


Not that I disagree, but worth referencing the discussion from the thread a few weeks ago about players having more equal options in a league with caps on individual salaries. To that extent, recruiting has become more important, and Validation would figure to carry more sway with NBA players than Pitino did (or even his own first stint with the Nets).

What would have happened if they had called a flagrant and reviewed that? Can they reverse the call to no foul at all? Could they give Wade a technical?


Nope. Only possible outcomes of a flagrant review are flagrant, technical (if the contact is deemed post-play and non-flagrant) or downgrade to common foul.
   396. Booey Posted: June 09, 2014 at 11:45 PM (#4722294)
CP and Blake don't flop.


Whaaaaaaaat? I consider them two of the floppiest stars in the league. I've even heard people refer to Paul as 'Chris Fall' due to his flopping habits.

Who are the guys who don't flop? I don't have any recollection of Kobe doing it, for one.


Kobe used to have a habit of flailing his arms wildly whenever someone stripped the ball from him, trying to draw the foul. He even got suspended a few games for it back in, what, 2005 or 2006 when his flying arms started finding peoples faces (I think he broke Ginobili's nose or something, but I could be remembering it wrong). That was a long time ago, though. I haven't really noticed him doing it much since.

Edit: Just looked it up and it was 2007. Ginobili and Marko Jaric were the guys on the receiving end.
   397. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: June 09, 2014 at 11:52 PM (#4722297)
No, Bryant still does it. He doesn't flop on defense, but he definitely does the acting job on offense.
   398. Booey Posted: June 10, 2014 at 12:03 AM (#4722300)
acting job on offense.


I'd guess that the list of players who don't embellish contact on offense is really, really short.
   399. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: June 10, 2014 at 12:11 AM (#4722303)
There's embellishment - which everyone does - and there's flopping, which is much more isolated, IMO. A similar discussion is going on the NHL thread. I wouldn't call any of the Kobe stuff described as flopping, but I'd call it embellishment. And I'd define embellishment as selling a call or actual contact and flopping as acting to draw a call that otherwise wouldn't happen/when there isn't contact (like the Wade play).
   400. theboyqueen Posted: June 10, 2014 at 12:40 AM (#4722314)
CP and Blake don't flop.


You are either trolling again or you really don't watch basketball. Those two are the absolute worst.

I agree there is a difference between embellishment (Rodman taking a clear charge and sliding back on his ass 10 feet) and flopping, which is just flailing your body around in the absence of serious contact. I don't like either of them but if there is an actual foul involved it's not really a flop, I guess.

I would also like offensive players who initiate contact with the sole purpose of trying to draw a foul to get called for an offensive foul. This goes for Durant's silly whip through move (or whatever it's called), Kobe or Westbrook kicking out their legs while shooting, or getting a guy to jump on a fake and them leaning into him to create contact.
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