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Monday, June 02, 2014

OT: Monthly NBA Thread- June 2014

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: Vladimir Putin’s draft strategy, Stephen Drew’s breakfast, and whether Kevin has taken a material step toward harming Russell Westbrook.

andrewberg Posted: June 02, 2014 at 07:57 PM | 2043 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nba, off-topic

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   401. rr Posted: June 10, 2014 at 01:33 AM (#4722328)
NBA owners cannot ####### help themselves. 25 million for Fisher? Derek Fisher? The Derek Fisher of ZERO coaching experience past maybe his nephew's middle school team? Unreal. It's pretty obvious that Jackson and the Knicks are desperate, and a desperate Jim Dolan is music to the ears of anyone he's talking to.

--

I think it is unwise to assume that this is another silly Knicks' mistake, simply because Fisher has never been a HC. A few points:

1. Fisher has shown that he has leadership ability, an ability to connect with people, an ability to command respect, and when it is in his interest, an ability to manipulate events in his favor. These are all traits one would look for in a coach.
2. Presumably the Knicks will be running the Triangle, which is not an Xs and Os system in the traditional sense and doesn’t involve that much in terms of calling plays. And, of course, Fisher played in the Triangle for many years.
3. Fisher has been around the NBA for basically his entire adult life and has run the players’ union (yes, there were some serious issues with him in that role). So, while it is true that he has no HC exp. it is not as if he doesn’t have some idea of what he is getting into. He knows big markets; he knows the Triangle. And he knows Phil.
4. The Nets, under Kidd, stabilized after the brutal start and had a year very much in line with their talent: they won a close series against Toronto and then lost in 5 to Miami.

It may not work out, but I don't think it is doomed to failure. I will say that if I were hiring Fisher to coach my team, I would want to make sure that he wasn't going to be a player-coach.
   402. rr Posted: June 10, 2014 at 01:54 AM (#4722331)
Mike Trudell of Lakers.com interviews Pelton on draft prospects:

link

Notes:

1. Trudell only asks about guys that the Lakers might conceivably get, so there are no questions about Embiid, Wiggins, and Parker. The Lakers are also highly unlikely to get Exum or Vonleh, but there is stuff about them.
2. Although it is on the Lakers site, there are no questions about the Lakers, like "Who should the Lakers take?"
3. Trudell's questions are pretty well thought-out.

Here is Pelton talking about Marcus Smart:

How have you evaluated Smart and what about his game stands out?

Pelton: Steal rate is a big factor and there are a few other things. He’s a really good rebounder for a point guard. That, historically, has been a factor that has translated well. A lot of the guys who have emerged as star point guards, even somewhat surprisingly, have tended to be very good defensive rebounders in college and indicates their ability to play against bigger players, their athleticism, things like that. The other thing about Smart is his free throw rate is similar to Exum’s. He gets to the basket. Guys with that kind of quickness to beat somebody one on one off the dribble or get to the basket in pick and roll situations and then also the size and strength he has to finish around the rim, those guys tend to be more effective in the NBA than they have been in college.


   403. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: June 10, 2014 at 02:22 AM (#4722334)
He’s a really good rebounder for a point guard. That, historically, has been a factor that has translated well.
Yes! I learned that the summer of '04, when the Magic drafted Jameer Nelson and then traded for Steve Francis. Both guys' career DRB% > 10.
   404. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: June 10, 2014 at 09:49 AM (#4722398)
   405. GregD Posted: June 10, 2014 at 09:53 AM (#4722405)
It may not work out, but I don't think it is doomed to failure. I will say that if I were hiring Fisher to coach my team, I would want to make sure that he wasn't going to be a player-coach.
For whatever it is worth, Fisher also has experience with Dolan from negotiations. The reporting is that they hit it off, which is probably a bad sign for Fisher's character.

On the hire, I guess I think the only chance the Knicks have is to have absolute unity of purpose all the way down. If Phil's plan doesn't work, they're sunk no matter what. Fisher makes sense as a way of keeping Phil's plan at the heart of the organization. He'll have other Phil guys on his staff--Cartwright (who has other identities) and Rambis and maybe Rick Fox and maybe one of Phil's old assistants--and he'll run exactly what Phil wants and he'll stay out of Phil's way. That still may not give you much of a chance of a good team, but it's better than in-fighting and rapid changes of direction.

Why it took $25 million, I have no idea.

On a player-coach, does the CBA spell out how to deal with his salary? If the entire coach's salary count against the cap, then I will predict we will never have a player-coach.
   406. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: June 10, 2014 at 10:05 AM (#4722420)
Flop or embellishment?

N/A - Jordan rules. (Flop, maybe a reach in by MJ before the flop, too.)
   407. tshipman Posted: June 10, 2014 at 10:36 AM (#4722447)
Fisher is an obvious overpay (I think I called that he would be the next coach when someone posted the news that the Knicks were fined).

On the other hand, there were only so many guys available. Phil wanted someone to run the Triangle. He didn't want to hire a failed coach, so Clemons, Cartwright and Rambis are all out. Shaw just finished the first year of a deal. He missed out on Kerr.

Who's left?

(On this plus side, this improves OKC for next year!)
   408. JJ1986 Posted: June 10, 2014 at 10:43 AM (#4722452)
Who's left?


Luke Walton is a coach now.
   409. Publius Publicola Posted: June 10, 2014 at 10:44 AM (#4722453)
Who's left?


Bison Dele.

Oh wait...
   410. GregD Posted: June 10, 2014 at 10:47 AM (#4722459)
Luke Walton is a coach now.
It sounds like Luke would have been next if Fisher didn't retire.

By optics, Fisher has a much-bigger rep so is an easier sell than Walton. It sounds like Walton will be either on the staff or around the team in some way.
   411. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 10, 2014 at 10:53 AM (#4722465)
Why it took $25 million, I have no idea.


It didn't, but part of Jackson's deal with Dolan is he gets to spend Dolan's money however he wants. In this case that would include giving a bunch of it to an old friend of his.
   412. JJ1986 Posted: June 10, 2014 at 11:00 AM (#4722473)
I don't think giving Fisher $5m a year is crazy, but I will be stunned if he makes it 5 years. On the other hand, perceived coaching stability might be needed to lure in Kevin Love or LMA or whoever the Knicks are targeting to pair with Anthony. If they have to spend an extra $10 million on a coach to sign a superstar, then that's a fair trade.
   413. GregD Posted: June 10, 2014 at 11:21 AM (#4722485)
It is strange that the market went up so much this offseason. Just a year ago Jason Kidd got $2.5 mill per year. Or maybe Kidd is just a terrible negotiator? Relative to Brad Stevens at $3.8 or Mike Brown at $4 million, Fisher's deal doesn't look so silly.
   414. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: June 10, 2014 at 11:29 AM (#4722493)
I don't think giving Fisher $5m a year is crazy, but I will be stunned if he makes it 5 years. On the other hand, perceived coaching stability might be needed to lure in Kevin Love or LMA or whoever the Knicks are targeting to pair with Anthony. If they have to spend an extra $10 million on a coach to sign a superstar, then that's a fair trade.

Isn't part of the reason Kerr supposedly didn't go to the Knicks was because the Knicks didn't want to go to 5 years?

Relative to Brad Stevens at $3.8 or Mike Brown at $4 million, Fisher's deal doesn't look so silly.

Actually, it does. He's a first time coach, so he's already less qualified (debateably) that both of them.
   415. GregD Posted: June 10, 2014 at 11:49 AM (#4722514)
Isn't part of the reason Kerr supposedly didn't go to the Knicks was because the Knicks didn't want to go to 5 years?
That was what the first-day story was, but the followups suggested that Kerr wanted five from the Knicks to get five from the Warriors and was gone as soon as he got the fifth year from the Warriors even though the Knicks were prepared to go five.
   416. jmurph Posted: June 10, 2014 at 01:19 PM (#4722580)
Good Zach Lowe piece on Lance Stephenson's impending free agency. He seems fairly high on him, though with many asterisks.
   417. theboyqueen Posted: June 10, 2014 at 01:22 PM (#4722586)
Who's left?


Dennis Rodman won titles with Chuck Daly, Phil Jackson, AND Greg Popovich. With that lineage he should know how to beat anybody. Someone needs to call him.

EDIT: Never mind, he was on the Spurs earlier than I thought.
   418. GregD Posted: June 10, 2014 at 02:00 PM (#4722607)
Dennis Rodman won titles with Chuck Daly, Phil Jackson, AND Greg Popovich. With that lineage he should know how to beat anybody. Someone needs to call him.
I know you're teasing, but in reality I would hire Rodman to tutor players in a second if you could be sure he wouldn't tutor them on the other aspects of his life. He knew as much basketball as anybody I can recall. His passing improved dramatically over his career. If he had self-discipline, he would have made a terrific coach, I think, but then again if he had that kind of self-discipline he wouldn't be Dennis Rodman.
   419. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: June 10, 2014 at 02:04 PM (#4722611)
Tom Haberstroh wrote a great feature on Bosh today, but I have a question...what's the difference between Line A:
Before home games, while his teammates blast hip-hop in their headphones, Bosh can be found sprawled out on the couch in the players' lounge reading a book
and Line B:
Before home games, while his teammates blast music in their headphones, Bosh can be found sprawled out on the couch in the players' lounge reading a book
   420. Publius Publicola Posted: June 10, 2014 at 02:30 PM (#4722643)
Shane Battier doesn't like hip-hop?
   421. madvillain Posted: June 10, 2014 at 04:11 PM (#4722748)
I don't see it Robin. Even if Fisher is fine, like Jason Kidd fine, it's a serious overpay. It's Dolan's money and he's paid many a coach to go away, but jeeze.

I can't help but see how similiar the Spurs' offense is to John Beilein's at Michigan. You got lots of ball screens, usually 4 guys that can shoot threes, and the big man is used in some pick and roll, but mostly as a triple threat from the elbow area. Man, if only the NCAA was a total dick and banned McGary an entire year for smoking a little reefer, we'd finally get to see Beilein's system with a very skilled big.

Shane Battier doesn't like hip-hop?


Maybe 18 year old Jalen Rose was right about the Dukies.
   422. Publius Publicola Posted: June 10, 2014 at 04:28 PM (#4722772)
Two recent news items about the NCAA caught my eye recently that didn't get any play here. One was O'Bannon's suit against the NCAA and the other was Rashad McCants admission his time at UNC was a joke academic-wise. O'Bannon's suit is basically saying the same thing about his time at UCLA. Whither NCAA basketball if O'Bannon wins?
   423. GregD Posted: June 10, 2014 at 06:56 PM (#4722875)
However the O'Bannon suit goes, I think it likely that the power conferences will make their own super league and make a deal to pay players openly. Some of the very profitable schools recognize that it is better to spend some revenue and avoid the terrible PR but they will never get approval from an NCAA with so many votes from low revenue schools
   424. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 10, 2014 at 07:50 PM (#4722914)
I think probably someone at the NCAA realizes exactly what the long-term danger is: Once players are paid for their services with money rather than scholarships, sooner or later someone is going to say, "These young men are employees; why should they have to actually be registered students at the school to be eligible to play basketball/football?"

From there it's a long but inevitable slope down to becoming minor leagues to the NBA and NFL.
   425. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 10, 2014 at 07:56 PM (#4722919)
From there it's a long but inevitable slope down to becoming minor leagues to the NBA and NFL.

I would argue we're on that slope and the NCAA has been fighting a rearguard action to keep it from being widely realized for some time now, but that's semantics; your larger point stands.
   426. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 10, 2014 at 08:14 PM (#4722936)
I don't see it Robin. Even if Fisher is fine, like Jason Kidd fine, it's a serious overpay. It's Dolan's money and he's paid many a coach to go away, but jeeze.
Perhaps it's a overpay, but money is respect in the NBA and signing Fisher for peanuts tells the players that the organization doesn't respect him. Moreover, it was pretty clear that Jackson didn't want an experienced coach, he wanted a younger guy who understood his approach that he could mold into Phil Jackson, Jr.
   427. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 10, 2014 at 09:30 PM (#4722979)
From there it's a long but inevitable slope down to becoming minor leagues to the NBA and NFL.


Perhaps true, but morally the minor leagues are miles above the NCAA, so I would like to suggest it is a long but inevitable slope up to becoming minor leagues.
   428. RollingWave Posted: June 10, 2014 at 09:40 PM (#4722986)
oh my... I don't think Miami's playing bad and they're getting completely annihilated so far
   429. Squash Posted: June 10, 2014 at 09:58 PM (#4722992)
This is where announcers and talking heads in general really annoy me. Yes, San Antonio is moving the ball well, but they're also hitting every shot in the world, and it''s not like these are all shots at the rim.
   430. Publius Publicola Posted: June 10, 2014 at 10:00 PM (#4722994)
This is most awesome display of team offense I've ever seen.
   431. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: June 10, 2014 at 10:03 PM (#4722997)
A little Heat run to get it to 18. This game isn't over...
   432. Publius Publicola Posted: June 10, 2014 at 10:04 PM (#4722998)
For a while there, the Spurs had actually broken the back of the Heat defense.
   433. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 10, 2014 at 10:11 PM (#4723000)
This is where announcers and talking heads in general really annoy me. Yes, San Antonio is moving the ball well, but they're also hitting every shot in the world, and it''s not like these are all shots at the rim.
Yeah, shooting 75% will win you a lot of ballgames.
   434. RollingWave Posted: June 10, 2014 at 10:16 PM (#4723001)
The scary thing is that the Heat's actually shooting pretty well, but is down by 21 at the half.
   435. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: June 10, 2014 at 10:24 PM (#4723003)
Yeah, 56% from the floor and 50% from 3 usually gets you better than a 21 point deficit.
   436. Publius Publicola Posted: June 10, 2014 at 10:32 PM (#4723006)
LeBron has 16 points on 6 of 9 shooting. Two halfs of that and that's a great game. But two halves of what the Spurs did and you have an epic blowout.
   437. Srul Itza Posted: June 10, 2014 at 10:35 PM (#4723008)
So now we know what kind of "adjustments" San Antonio decided to make, going into Game 3: Don't miss any shots.

I wonder why everyone doesn't use that strategy?

   438. Spivey Posted: June 10, 2014 at 10:35 PM (#4723009)
Kawhi and Danny Green are outplaying LeBron and Wade. If that ever happens, the Spurs are going to blow out Miami.

The trouble is, Miami has personnel to be getting good shots every possession. And if that happens, they can get back into it.
   439. steagles Posted: June 10, 2014 at 11:16 PM (#4723022)
i get that the refs don't want to make the wrong call or make a call that decides the winner/loser, but some of these no-calls are ridiculous. just do your damn job.
   440. Publius Publicola Posted: June 10, 2014 at 11:41 PM (#4723030)
Pretty impressive win by the Spurs. They absorbed the Heat counterpunch and put it away. Mills played great btw.
   441. MikeOberly Posted: June 11, 2014 at 12:47 AM (#4723068)
The Spurs looked amazing tonight. When they can keep away from turnovers, their passing game makes them so fun to watch. To do that on the road is pretty impressive.
   442. theboyqueen Posted: June 11, 2014 at 12:57 AM (#4723075)
I didn't find any of the no calls ridiculous. Let the dudes play. Too much whining on both sides.
   443. stevegamer Posted: June 11, 2014 at 01:43 AM (#4723089)
The Spurs looked like Villanova taking down Georgetown today.
   444. steagles Posted: June 11, 2014 at 03:58 AM (#4723098)
I didn't find any of the no calls ridiculous. Let the dudes play. Too much whining on both sides.
i posted [439] immediately after this play. that kind of blatant violation has to be called.
   445. jmurph Posted: June 11, 2014 at 07:56 AM (#4723116)
I didn't find any of the no calls ridiculous. Let the dudes play. Too much whining on both sides.


It did not change the course of the game at all (in fact I think some of the calls and no-calls, particularly on plays that should have benefited Duncan and Parker, allowed the Heat to briefly get back in the game), but I agree with STEAGLES that the refereeing was pretty terrible. The only calls they were willing to make in the 2nd half were phantom charges when the defender had no position.
   446. AROM Posted: June 11, 2014 at 09:03 AM (#4723139)
With the stipulation that each shot has to be made from the spot on the floor the Spurs actually took it from, I think most NBA teams would have trouble matching the first half shooting percentages even if there were no defenders on the floor.
   447. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: June 11, 2014 at 11:14 AM (#4723253)
Too much whining on both sides.

This.
   448. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 11, 2014 at 12:17 PM (#4723329)
I thought the reffing affected the Heat noticeably moreso than it did the Spurs, but I also think that is a product of the Spurs shooting (and making) countless jumpshots, while the Heat forced the issue at the rim more often. I think the refs called a pretty bad game overall that just happened to land more on the Heat. (This isn't why the Heat lost, as everyone is saying. The Heat lost because they couldn't hang with the Spurs offensive eruption.)
   449. Famous Original Joe C Posted: June 11, 2014 at 07:19 PM (#4723644)
Been awhile since I posted, hope you're all well. I have been reading along, though, and following the league closely.

So, since the media is all atwitter about it, the Knicks in no way have anything approaching the assets to trade for Love, right? Shumpert, their 2018 1st rounder, and what, Tim Hardaway Jr, plus salary filler? That's not going to do it, and I don't think Flip Saunders is going to be interested in the Knicks 2020 pick or much anything else they can offer.
   450. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 11, 2014 at 07:24 PM (#4723649)
That's not going to do it, and I don't think Flip Saunders is going to be interested in the Knicks 2020 pick or much anything else they can offer.

That's the real thing. The Knicks' utter lack of draft picks (and strategy of disregarding them having lead to a dearth of young talent also) will continue to completely hamstring their ability to trade for Love, or any similar player to hit the trade market in the next...five years, maybe?
   451. Famous Original Joe C Posted: June 11, 2014 at 07:40 PM (#4723659)
The Knicks' utter lack of draft picks (and strategy of disregarding them having lead to a dearth of young talent also) will continue to completely hamstring their ability to trade for Love, or any similar player to hit the trade market in the next...five years, maybe?


It could reasonably be as few as like three years, but still. I think if I'm them right now I let Carmelo go, bottom out for a high pick in the 2015 draft (when they actually have a pick), and rebuild from there with an eye toward 3-5 years from now. Who exactly are they going to add to play alongside Carmelo if they resign him? Not Lebron. Not Durant or Westbrook. Love isn't happening. I don't see that move out there for them in the short term (next 1-2 years) - so again, clear the decks salarywise, wait a few years, gather young talent and assets as best you can, and take it from there.

   452. RollingWave Posted: June 11, 2014 at 09:29 PM (#4723706)
So, since the media is all atwitter about it, the Knicks in no way have anything approaching the assets to trade for Love, right? Shumpert, their 2018 1st rounder, and what, Tim Hardaway Jr, plus salary filler? That's not going to do it, and I don't think Flip Saunders is going to be interested in the Knicks 2020 pick or much anything else they can offer.


You forgot Bargs of course, he's worth 2 first round picks!

As for the Knicks, their only hope is that Lebron opts in and wants to sign with them after next season. or KD really do join them later on.



   453. rr Posted: June 12, 2014 at 12:12 AM (#4723769)
Sources told ESPN.com that Heat officials and the team's leading players have already started to explore their options for creating sufficient financial flexibility to make an ambitious run at adding New York Knicks scoring machine Carmelo Anthony this summer in free agency.

James' off-court business is booming, thanks to a string of investments paying off massively and the prospect of new opportunities in endorsements and entertainment projects promising to expand his wealth significantly in coming years.

In a recent example, while James was leading the Heat to a victory over the Indiana Pacers in the Eastern Conference finals, sources say the 29-year-old was finalizing what is believed to be the biggest equity cash payout for a professional athlete in history as part of Apple's recent $3 billion purchase of Beats Electronics. Sources briefed on the situation say James realized a profit of more than $30 million in cash and stock in the Beats sale after he had struck a deal to get a small stake in the company at its inception in 2008 in exchange for promoting its high-end headphones.


link
   454. theboyqueen Posted: June 12, 2014 at 12:32 AM (#4723778)
If they can get Carmelo they should just go for the straight flush and get Darko while they're at it. He's probably available.
   455. theboyqueen Posted: June 12, 2014 at 12:37 AM (#4723779)
10 years from now in 2024 who wins this matchup:

PG: Lebron
SG: Wade
SF: Carmelo
PF: Bosh
C: Milicic

vs.

PG: Oladipo
SG: Porter
SF: Bennett
PF: Zeller
C: Len
   456. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 12, 2014 at 01:25 AM (#4723787)
In a one-off game, or a best-of-seven series? One off I'll take the 2003 class, because LeBron's old man post game is going to be spectacular and Melo's may well also, although it may be 5-on-4 because Wade's knees aren't going to last that long. Anything longer than that and I'll take the 2013 class, less because I think they'll be all that great and more because you take the 30 year olds over the 40 year olds pretty much every time.
   457. steagles Posted: June 12, 2014 at 01:30 AM (#4723790)
10 years from now in 2024 who wins this matchup:

PG: Lebron
SG: Wade
SF: Carmelo
PF: Bosh
C: Milicic

vs.

PG: Oladipo
SG: Porter
SF: Bennett
PF: Zeller
C: Len
ugh. i go with 2013. darko is darko. wade already has knee issues. there's no way that carmelo doesn't go full antoine walker between now and then. one of bosh/lebron will still probably be good, but it's unlikely that both will.
   458. theboyqueen Posted: June 12, 2014 at 01:42 AM (#4723797)
I think Bennett is more likely to be diabetic than an NBA player in 2024; I will be absolutely shocked if he lasts 10 years.
   459. steagles Posted: June 12, 2014 at 01:48 AM (#4723798)
I think Bennett is more likely to be diabetic than an NBA player in 2024; I will be absolutely shocked if he lasts 10 years.
he and carmleo can count carbs together on the sideline and everyone else will play 4 on 4.
   460. theboyqueen Posted: June 12, 2014 at 01:48 AM (#4723799)
Actually of the first team, I think Carmelo is the guy most likely to still be playing 10 years from now. He may be going after Kareem's scoring record if so.
   461. theboyqueen Posted: June 12, 2014 at 01:52 AM (#4723802)
Carmelo's last two years have been his best years; he seems to be improving as a player. The cast around him in New York last year was unspeakably horrible.

He already sort of plays like a 40 year old.
   462. theboyqueen Posted: June 12, 2014 at 02:03 AM (#4723804)
Come to think of it, he's a guy that doesn't really flop much, does he?
   463. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:43 AM (#4723811)
Come to think of it, he's a guy that doesn't really flop much, does he?

Yep. His refusal to do so is a source of much contention on some Knicks boards.
   464. jmurph Posted: June 12, 2014 at 07:50 AM (#4723825)
PF: Zeller
C: Len


I genuinely forgot about those two guys. Was Len hurt (looking him up---- wow! 42 games?)? Zeller was predictably unimpressive.
   465. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: June 12, 2014 at 11:10 AM (#4723938)
I don't like the Heat's chances to add Carmelo also. I won't rule it out. I pretty much completely ignore the Knicks' chances of getting Kevin Love until FA, and definitely not if Melo's in Miami.

I saw a tweet from someone today saying the Rockets are acknowledging they don't have enough to get Love. I have to guess it's down to the Celtics and Bulls, and as much as I think the Bulls should be able to win that one I don't actually like their chances of pulling it off. I can't believe the draft is so soon; I think if Love is going to be traded it'll have to be before then (so the Wolves can make the picks, even if it's not official); otherwise I put the Wolves just keep him the whole year (midseason trade is possible, of course).
   466. theboyqueen Posted: June 12, 2014 at 11:59 AM (#4723994)
Yep. His refusal to do so is a source of much contention on some Knicks boards.


I think I have a new favorite player.
   467. andrewberg Posted: June 12, 2014 at 12:30 PM (#4724025)
I saw a tweet from someone today saying the Rockets are acknowledging they don't have enough to get Love. I have to guess it's down to the Celtics and Bulls


Love also spoke flatteringly of the Cavs. Not sure if those conversations are happening behind the scenes or not.
   468. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: June 12, 2014 at 12:51 PM (#4724046)
Cavs have to be, by far, the best case scenario for the Wolves. If they can get the #1 pick, it's an easy decision.
   469. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: June 12, 2014 at 01:14 PM (#4724062)
Elhassan (In$sider) on how the contract could look for Melo in Miami. Long story short, worst case is Melo is passing on $70mil guaranteed from the Knicks and $37mil guaranteed signing for a max deal elsewhere. In addition to Melo giving up that much, the Heat 3 would also be giving up over $50mil each. It's an even bigger cut for all the guys than I had expected. Crazy.
   470. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 12, 2014 at 01:22 PM (#4724069)
I've often wondered why star athletes who have made tens of millions in salary and continue to rake in endorsement money don't take a direct salary hit to allow their team's salary under a cap to do more. If LeBron played for, say $5 per year, he would still be making plenty annually beyond that, and likely even pick up some endorsements due to the PR of putting winning ahead of maximizing salary. But man, it's easy to think about that from my couch, and it's another thing entirely to walk away from $37/$50/$70 in cold, hard, guaranteed money. (Also, were LBJ to do so, there would be a contingent of the sports media shouting about how he's cheating the game...)
   471. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: June 12, 2014 at 01:30 PM (#4724076)
I've often wondered why star athletes who have made tens of millions in salary and continue to rake in endorsement money don't take a direct salary hit to allow their team's salary under a cap to do more.


I'm sure the unions don't like that idea. The MLBPA nearly had a heart attack when A-Rod offered to restructure his deal (and reduce the value) to accommodate a trade.
   472. Manny Coon Posted: June 12, 2014 at 01:32 PM (#4724078)
Zeller was predictably unimpressive.


Zeller was good the second half the season, his TS% before the all-star break was only .445, but afterwards it was .583 and he was part of a strong defensive team that made the playoffs. Among the top 5 guys selected he might be the best one.
   473. rr Posted: June 12, 2014 at 01:50 PM (#4724099)
ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
RT @AllonSinai: David Blatt: "There are several options and now that I have told Maccabi that I'm leaving I will intensify my talks w/ NBA teams"
   474. andrewberg Posted: June 12, 2014 at 01:52 PM (#4724106)
I'm sure the unions don't like that idea. The MLBPA nearly had a heart attack when A-Rod offered to restructure his deal (and reduce the value) to accommodate a trade.


That still raises the question of what the union could really do if its best player sought to take a pay cut.
   475. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: June 12, 2014 at 01:54 PM (#4724111)
This union? Jack ####.
   476. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: June 12, 2014 at 01:55 PM (#4724113)
Let's say LBJ took that huge cut from Miami. Then in 10 years after he retires, he gets a stake in team ownership. What can, or should, the league do about that?
   477. JJ1986 Posted: June 12, 2014 at 02:00 PM (#4724120)
ESPN really knows how to wring a huge amount of ink/tv time out of "rumors" that have no chance of coming true.
   478. smileyy Posted: June 12, 2014 at 02:00 PM (#4724121)

I'm sure the unions don't like that idea. The MLBPA nearly had a heart attack when A-Rod offered to restructure his deal (and reduce the value) to accommodate a trade.


Well, the NBPA has already collectively agreed to a system that pays top players less than they are actually "worth", so maybe its not so surprising when a player extends this trend.

LeBron has most likely profited greatly from his "investment" of taking less money to play in Miami, by becoming a title-winning global icon. OTOH, things like player's associations and unions usually tend away from members taking less money for the chance of more money in the future.


Let's say LBJ took that huge cut from Miami. Then in 10 years after he retires, he gets a stake in team ownership. What can, or should, the league do about that?


There's a burden of proof on someone to demonstrate that the offer did/did not exist in 2014. I'm not sure on whom, though, since its hard to prove a negative.
   479. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 12, 2014 at 02:04 PM (#4724126)
Let's say LBJ took that huge cut from Miami. Then in 10 years after he retires, he gets a stake in team ownership. What can, or should, the league do about that?

I think the only thing that could possibly be done would be to make sure the player in that situation pays a fair price for that stake. (They may not even be able to enforce that; I have no idea.) Otherwise, I think it would be like how everyone knows that LeBron, Wade, and Bosh tampered with each other to come to Miami, but there really was no way to prove anything actionable. I'm not sure anyone's nose would really get too out of joint about such machinations, even if they're questionable, a decade after a player retires.
   480. rr Posted: June 12, 2014 at 02:21 PM (#4724150)
ESPN really knows how to wring a huge amount of ink/tv time out of "rumors" that have no chance of coming true.


I agree that it is highly unlikely to happen, but I would also make three points:

1. No player since Jordan has had the kind of gravitational pull that James does, and James has already shown that playing with his guys is a big deal to him. And Anthony is in that club.
2. James is wired very differently than Jordan is and is playing under different economic rules than Jordan did.
3. Windhorst is connected to the Heat, James, and James' camp; the report didn't come from Bleacher Report or Broussard.

But sure, this kind of thing is also a way to get clicks/eyeballs on a day when the World Cup and US Open are getting started, and to keep people talking on the off-days between Finals games.

It is far-fetched for a couple of reasons--one is obvious: the money. The other IMO is that Anthony either way, and James, especially if the Heat lose, will be putting themselves in the crosshairs (in James' case, back in the crosshairs) of this "needing help/wussing out" stuff. If Miami loses to San Antonio, and James' response to that defeat is to take a big paycut to get another All-Star buddy on his team, that will set the interwebs on fire once again. And Anthony, of course, would be walking away from New York to be 4th wheel on The HeatMobile, which would draw more mainstream flack than bad D or Heroball ever could. And, I think that most big-time jocks do care to some extent about public image, even if they say otherwise.

But, there is from James' POV arguably a certain logic to it. If he is sure that LeBron James Inc. is going to generate a few hundred million for him over the years through various ventures, why not play basketball for 6-8M or so instead of 20M, to be on a kickass team with his pals until he is 33 or 34?
   481. rr Posted: June 12, 2014 at 02:32 PM (#4724160)
Julius Randle is irritated with Adrian Wojnarowksi:

Julius Randle @J30_RANDLE
No disrespect but check with the actual source next time before you put something like that out there @WojYahooNBA


According to several team executives, the 6-foot-9 Kentucky forward's broken right foot hasn't healed correctly -- and sources confirmed a Yahoo! Sports report that Randle may need surgery after the June 26 NBA draft that will keep him out of summer league.

"This is an issue," one executive told ESPN.com. "It didn't heal right."

Randle refuted the report, writing on Twitter: "No disrespect but check with the actual source next time before you put something like that out there. I never do this but it was brought to me and it's crazy how people put stories out there and have no clue what they're talking about.


link
   482. bunyon Posted: June 12, 2014 at 02:32 PM (#4724161)
Are these discussions going on NOW? Isn't the day off between game 3 and 4 of the NBA finals not the best time to be orchestrating next season's roster?
   483. AROM Posted: June 12, 2014 at 02:41 PM (#4724168)
Whether or not the 4 players would take the paycuts and make it happen, would adding Anthony actually make the Heat better?

Take a completely average team, and give them the choice of adding a defensive minded bird-man, or a top scoring forward. Carmelo's offense probably helps you more than Anderson's defense. But if a team already has 2 dominant scorers who can handle the ball, a good offensive big man, and the top 3 point shooter of all time, what do you gain by adding a high volume scorer whose efficiency has never been that great?

Heat defense allowed Spurs to start game 3 on a 19 for 21 run. I don't see Carmelo stopping that.
   484. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 12, 2014 at 02:43 PM (#4724170)
Are these discussions going on NOW? Isn't the day off between game 3 and 4 of the NBA finals not the best time to be orchestrating next season's roster?

If Carmelo cares even a little about narrative, this is a pretty big point, actually. If the Heat lose, him joining them could be seen as reloading. If they win, he's just hitching his wagon to winners to tag along for rings. Both are obviously overly simplistic (and assume the Heat keep all three of the big three, although I don't seem them shaking that one up), but it seems like there would be, as RR mentioned, a major difference in spin between the two scenarios.
   485. rr Posted: June 12, 2014 at 02:45 PM (#4724172)
483-That was a point made in the 5-on-5: Anthony does not address Miami's issues with rim protection and D. But, according to Windhorst, it appeals to James et al because none of them is young anymore, and they could divide up the load:

James will turn 30 in December, and Bosh, Wade and Anthony all are in their 30s and mindful of their advancing age.

James feels he needs to reduce his workload during the regular season, especially with Wade at a point in his career where knee problems are limiting him to fewer games. Wade missed 28 games during the regular season as part of a maintenance program aimed at keeping him as fresh as possible for the playoffs. Pairing with Anthony, his close friend and a player who sports a similar skill set, is attractive to James.


   486. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:02 PM (#4724196)
I think the only thing that could possibly be done would be to make sure the player in that situation pays a fair price for that stake. (They may not even be able to enforce that; I have no idea.) Otherwise, I think it would be like how everyone knows that LeBron, Wade, and Bosh tampered with each other to come to Miami, but there really was no way to prove anything actionable. I'm not sure anyone's nose would really get too out of joint about such machinations, even if they're questionable, a decade after a player retires.

I think there's a big difference between what LBJ/Wade/Bosh did* and some sort of underhanded delayed and illegal compensation. It's purely a hypothetical question on my part, so by definition there really can't be a wrong answer. However, I think the NBA would have to take something like that much more seriously. Magic had a stake in the Lakers at one point, no? How did that come about?

*Not to re-hash anything, but I fail to see how that would count as tampering or collusion, unless Wade acted for the Heat. Which is possible, but still on a whole other level.

483-That was a point made in the 5-on-5: Anthony does not address Miami's issues with rim protection and D. But, according to Windhorst, it appeals to James et al because none of them is young anymore, and they could divide up the load:

There's that. But at another level, Rashard Lewis is the starting PF for the Heat right now. That's a very significant upgrade.
   487. steagles Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:15 PM (#4724218)
There's a burden of proof on someone to demonstrate that the offer did/did not exist in 2014. I'm not sure on whom, though, since its hard to prove a negative.
the joe smith situation with minnesota seems like a somewhat applicable precedent and they got absolutely asscaked when it was found out (they lost 5 1st round draft picks spread over 10 years, which also meant that they couldn't trade any of their draft picks for a decade).
   488. Booey Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:24 PM (#4724232)
And Anthony, of course, would be walking away from New York to be 4th wheel on The HeatMobile,


I dunno; Wade is clearly on the downside of his career and is basically being held together with glue and zip ties at this point. Bosh may be as good or better an overall player than Melo, but he was never the scorer that Anthony is. I think Carmelo would be the Heat's #2 option, at worst. It actually wouldn't surprise me if he took more shots and scored more points than LeBron, as LBJ settled into late career Duncan or Boston KG mode and remained the best player on a contender by doing everything else without having to lead the team in scoring every single night (but retaining the ability to do so if need be, of course).
   489. rr Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:36 PM (#4724251)
488-I was talking narrative/reaction, not basketball. The basketball part, if it were to happen, might work out like you suggest.
   490. Jimmy P Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:04 PM (#4724278)
And Anthony, of course, would be walking away from New York to be 4th wheel on The HeatMobile,


So, he'd be going from a clownshoes organization to what appears to be one of the best run teams in all of sports? Yeah, I can why tons of athletes would pass up that opportunity.

I think Melo would easily be the 2nd best player on that team. Whenever this group plays together at the Olympics, he's always the 2nd best behind Lebron.

I still hope the Bulls get him, though.
   491. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:42 PM (#4724355)
It is a clown shoes organization but it can also offer him far more money, he already chose to go there once, and it sounds like his wife wants to live in NY. I wouldn't be surprised to see hikmet leave, but he's shown no interest in taking pay cuts before so I'm pretty skeptical of him going for Miami.
   492. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:21 PM (#4724409)
he's shown no interest in taking pay cuts before so I'm pretty skeptical of him going for Miami.

It's hard to guess exactly what his priorities are these days. It seems (from a great distance) that his best options would be staying put to max out his earning, taking a max deal from Chicago, or going to Miami. (Golden State occurs to me as a possible decent fit, but I don't know if they have the cap space to afford giving him the max, and can't investigate right now.)

How he chooses between those (and whatever other options I'm missing) depends on his relative priorities about making money, winning, and being "the man". It's pretty impossible to know, at this point in his career, after the last few years with the Knicks, what direction he will break.
   493. Jimmy P Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:50 PM (#4724466)
It is a clown shoes organization but it can also offer him far more money

Can. Doesn't mean will. Their new president has already stated that he wants Carmelo to take less than the full max
   494. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:55 PM (#4724479)
taking a max deal from Chicago

It's going to be really, really hard for him to get a max deal from Chicago. All of the other moves the Bulls would have to make (dumping Gibson and Dunleavy for nothing, amnestying Boozer) are ones the Bulls might find hard to do in time to make a deal possible (and ones they wouldn't make unless Melo was guaranteed to come) and ones they might not want to make and/or are debateable how much they hurt the team. I think there's almost no chance for a S&T that makes any sense.

IOW, it's much more likely they get Love, and even that I don't think is going to happen.
   495. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 06:10 PM (#4724498)
Seems to me LeBron/Miami are interested in Carmelo because they're aware that Wade is just about finished and need to replace his scoring.
   496. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 12, 2014 at 06:18 PM (#4724509)
Whether or not they get Melo, it will be verrrrrry interesting to see how the Heat deal with their Wade conundrum over the next couple years. He's not just one of the Big 3, he's been their guy since 2006. But yeah, he's also at very real risk of becoming an anchor.
   497. rr Posted: June 12, 2014 at 07:14 PM (#4724542)
So, he'd be going from a clownshoes organization to what appears to be one of the best run teams in all of sports? Yeah, I can why tons of athletes would pass up that opportunity.


In addition to the points already made, it is worth noting that Phil Jackson and "clownshoes" are not usually thought of together. In any case, all I am saying is that if Anthony actually does this, he will be seen by a lot of people as riding on James' coattails, wussing out, etc. He may not care about that, and you may not, either. But it will happen.
   498. Jimmy P Posted: June 12, 2014 at 07:18 PM (#4724545)
it is worth noting that Phil Jackson and "clownshoes" are not usually thought of together

They are now that he's attached to the Dolans.

Phil has zero record of being an executive. Everyone's acting like he's the best GM in the league, and there's just no proof. There's no proof he isn't, either, but there's no proof he is. He's already somewhat bungled his first coaching search, depending on what media reports you believe.
   499. rr Posted: June 12, 2014 at 07:28 PM (#4724548)
Everyone's acting like he's the best GM in the league


I am not sure who "everyone" is, but no one on this thread has either said that or implied it. As to Kerr and Fisher, we will see.
   500. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 07:37 PM (#4724552)
I see no reason to believe Phil Jackson is going to be a good GM.

On the other hand, I see no reason to believe with Jackson around Dolan is going to have any say in any personnel decisions whatsoever. So it would be hard for Jackson to fail to improve the team, accidentally if nothing else.
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