Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Wednesday, February 03, 2016

OT: Monthly NBA Thread - February 2016

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: contract opt-outs and tanking (in baseball).

Link goes to the announcement of your 2016 NBA All-Star Game entertainment, Sting.

My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: February 03, 2016 at 01:43 PM | 1835 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, ncaabb, off-topic

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 1 of 19 pages  1 2 3 >  Last ›
   1. jmurph Posted: February 03, 2016 at 08:24 PM (#5149149)
trademachine: who says no?
SAC gets al horford
ATL gets willie cauley-stein, ben mclemore and caron butler


That's interesting. I would think Sacramento couldn't role the dice on convincing Horford to stay? WCS also looks promising.
   2. jmurph Posted: February 03, 2016 at 08:30 PM (#5149155)
Holy god Curry has 23 points and 7 threes with 2 minutes to go in the FIRST QUARTER.
   3. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: February 03, 2016 at 08:30 PM (#5149157)
Steph is hot y'all. ESPN, get on it.
   4. jmurph Posted: February 03, 2016 at 08:36 PM (#5149160)
America needs the Wizards to keep it within 15 so Curry will play more than 28 minutes.
   5. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: February 03, 2016 at 08:37 PM (#5149162)
On pace for a hundred!
   6. Norcan Posted: February 03, 2016 at 08:55 PM (#5149167)
Watching Kyrie dribble and dribble, left hand, right hand, in circles, back and forth, side to side, against NBA players who have nary a chance of flicking the ball away even with their incredible athleticism, length and hand and eye coordination got me thinking that I'd like to see Kyrie and Steph take on 55 kids where all they do is dribble on a 100 yard court like that Japanese show that had 2 soccer players take on 55 kids.
   7. aberg Posted: February 03, 2016 at 08:56 PM (#5149169)
I was just thinking that HACKING MASS seems to be harder in basketball than it is in baseball. There aren't that many bad players getting significant minutes.


If there was an NBA HACKING MASS, here's my off-the-top-of-my-head starting lineup for this year

PG- Emmanuel Mudiay (for now)
SG- Nic Stauskas
SF- Tayshaun Prince
PF- Dante Cunningham
C- Omer Asik
   8. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: February 03, 2016 at 08:59 PM (#5149171)
Kobe Bryant juts his jaw in your general direction.
   9. Norcan Posted: February 03, 2016 at 09:00 PM (#5149172)
Pretty incredible that MKG missed so much time from a torn labrum that was supposed to keep him out of the season and he looks like he hasn't missed any time at all. He's diving on the floor and wreaking havoc on the offensive glass, two things that would seem to be precarious to his repaired shoulder.
   10. aberg Posted: February 03, 2016 at 09:03 PM (#5149174)
Kobe Bryant juts his jaw in your general direction.


Ok, yeah.

I'd like to see Kyrie and Steph take on 55 kids where all they do is dribble on a 100 yard court like that Japanese show that had 2 soccer players take on 55 kids.


Full court game, normal rules, play to 21. How many 10 year olds could the 2 of them beat?
   11. Norcan Posted: February 03, 2016 at 09:05 PM (#5149177)
Kobe Bryant juts his jaw in your general direction.


And bites his NBA HACKING MASS jersey. I always found it bizarre that the Piranha jaw and jersey biting both came out of nowhere more than a decade into his career. It reeked to me of him trying to create a signature quirk similar to Jordan's tongue wagging.
   12. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: February 03, 2016 at 09:07 PM (#5149180)
Wall and Steph putting on the show of the year.
   13. jmurph Posted: February 03, 2016 at 09:35 PM (#5149195)
Good on the Wiz for making this a game!
   14. Norcan Posted: February 03, 2016 at 09:37 PM (#5149197)
I always thought Dion Waiters should go on steroids. I don't think it'll make him a better outside shooter or anything but that little bit or lot of extra explosiveness and quickness would help him make a lot of the shots around the basket that he comes up short on or get blocked. It could mean the difference between being a below-average player to an above-average one.
   15. tshipman Posted: February 03, 2016 at 09:39 PM (#5149199)
This Wizards/Warriors game is not being very well officiated.
   16. Famous Original Joe C Posted: February 03, 2016 at 09:48 PM (#5149201)
Also in absurd stat lines: 10 guys since 1983-84 have 14 total games of at least 20 points, 15 rebounds, and 13 assists in a game (Bird and Magic did it three times each).

Westbrook has 20, 15, and 13 after 3 quarters tonight.
   17. Norcan Posted: February 03, 2016 at 09:53 PM (#5149205)
Mario Hezonja has one of the weirdest hairdos I've ever seen. It's subtle enough that I'm not sure if it's what I think it is but he appears to have not shaved a tiny little portion in the shape of an irregular square on the left side of his head. He used to have a regular, preppy haircut but then he shaved both sides except for that little piece or rather, used a longer razor setting for that patch. Whatever it is, it looks like the result of hazing or a code to this spy handlers.
   18. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: February 03, 2016 at 10:06 PM (#5149216)
I see that Steph Curry is 16-21 from the field.

Curry being rated in the top 25 is a problem for me just based on him vs. Westbrook. I don't see why Curry just gets to cut the line when Westbrook doesn't. Curry's better, but he's not that much better and Westbrook's been doing it for quite a bit longer despite being the same age.

You know, for as down as the West is, Golden State could really have an incredibly tough journey to win the title. Something like Utah, Clippers, Spurs/OKC winner, Cleveland is extremely difficult.

I'd really like to see Curry and Westbrook battle in a playoff series.
   19. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: February 03, 2016 at 10:06 PM (#5149218)
No Butler for the Bulls tonight. He injured it last game against Utah, also another reason he (and the BullsThat game isn't worth watching now, but the Bulls are doing their part to get that Kings pick.

Also means Butler loses that bet with the trainer about playing all 82.
   20. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: February 03, 2016 at 10:07 PM (#5149219)
This is the type of effort/results everyone expected from the Wiz this season.
   21. RollingWave Posted: February 03, 2016 at 10:08 PM (#5149221)
The Hornets beat Lebron in the first time in like 6 freaking year behind some Linsanity .

seriously though, it's a problem if you keep putting Irving and get Love switched onto any reasonably offensively competent point guard.
   22. no STIGGLES...no STIGGLES......you're the STIGGLES Posted: February 03, 2016 at 10:09 PM (#5149223)
I always thought Dion Waiters should go on steroids. I don't think it'll make him a better outside shooter or anything but that little bit or lot of extra explosiveness and quickness would help him make a lot of the shots around the basket that he comes up short on or get blocked. It could mean the difference between being a below-average player to an above-average one.
that might even get him into marcus smart territory.


on a related note, for some odd reason, i really want the sixers to sign dion waiters and terrence jones and trade for markieff morris this offseason.
   23. Norcan Posted: February 03, 2016 at 10:16 PM (#5149226)
The Hornets beat Lebron in the first time in like 6 freaking year behind some Linsanity .

seriously though, it's a problem if you keep putting Irving and get Love switched onto any reasonably offensively competent point guard.


And it came with Kemba out, so he still hasn't won a game Lebron's played in. If they meet in the playoffs, it stands to reason that he should sit out.
   24. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: February 03, 2016 at 10:16 PM (#5149228)
   25. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: February 03, 2016 at 10:19 PM (#5149231)
If there was an NBA HACKING MASS, here's my off-the-top-of-my-head starting lineup for this year

PG- Emmanuel Mudiay (for now)
SG- Nic Stauskas
SF- Tayshaun Prince
PF- Dante Cunningham
C- Omer Asik


Rose would be a good pick for the counting stats. Tony Snell. Paul Pierce.
   26. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: February 03, 2016 at 10:31 PM (#5149241)
Woah, nice finish for OKC in ORL.

---

E'Twaan more pulling a mini-Steph Curry - 5/5 13pts in the first part of the first quarter against the Kangz.
   27. aberg Posted: February 03, 2016 at 10:34 PM (#5149242)
Rose would be a good pick for the counting stats. Tony Snell. Paul Pierce.


Snell was on the very short list. Wing is crowded- Waiters, Joe Johnson, and others worthy of consideration.
   28. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: February 03, 2016 at 10:41 PM (#5149247)
I always found it bizarre that the Piranha jaw and jersey biting both came out of nowhere more than a decade into his career. It reeked to me of him trying to create a signature quirk similar to Jordan's tongue wagging.
I once saw Kobe wipe sweat off his brow like Patrick Ewing used to. What a poser.

There's literally nothing Kobe's done that doesn't trigger somebody somewhere.
   29. tshipman Posted: February 03, 2016 at 10:44 PM (#5149250)
I don't see why Curry just gets to cut the line when Westbrook doesn't. Curry's better, but he's not that much better


Curry's in the middle of arguably the best NBA season of all time. He's already won an MVP on a championship team. Curry's quite a bit better than Westbrook.
   30. covelli chris p Posted: February 03, 2016 at 10:44 PM (#5149251)
Mario Hezonja has one of the weirdest hairdos I've ever seen. It's subtle enough that I'm not sure if it's what I think it is but he appears to have not shaved a tiny little portion in the shape of an irregular square on the left side of his head.
i think it's a birthmark or some other skin thing under his hair.

an older picture
   31. theboyqueen Posted: February 03, 2016 at 10:45 PM (#5149252)
Belinelli has been as bad as Stauskas and has played a zillion more minutes.
   32. Moeball Posted: February 03, 2016 at 11:01 PM (#5149262)

Curry's in the middle of arguably the best NBA season of all time. He's already won an MVP on a championship team. Curry's quite a bit better than Westbrook.


And yet the depth of this team still impresses me. After the 30-point blowout of San Antonio, over the next 3 games Curry looked human, averaging under 20/game and his shots just looked off.

So Klay steps up and starts hitting 3s all over the place and getting 30-45 pts/game during the same stretch. The Warriors keep on winning and have a lot of weapons...
   33. Athletic Supporter was shiny, now he's all rusted Posted: February 03, 2016 at 11:30 PM (#5149274)
2015-16 BTF NBA Prediction Contest Update

With 60% of the season gone by, here are the current standings (as last time, ties are broken by point differential; final ties broken by NBA tiebreaking rules).

The most major position changes from last time are Boston shooting up to 3rd in the East, and Orlando and Minnesota falling down.

Der-K and Kevin Pelton share the lead by one point over the folks at 538!

213: Der-K, Pelton
212: 538
210: on a winter's night a baserunner
208: RollingWave, Booey

Las Vegas has fallen back a little to 206, now tied with the BTF Consensus Forecast. Bringing up the rear is theboyqueen with 189. 240 is a perfect score.

See complete predictions.
   34. Topher Posted: February 03, 2016 at 11:39 PM (#5149275)
I have a habit of lurking on this thread but I know better than to post in it. I don't follow basketball enough to comment, especially since I watch way more college than NBA.

But ... during tonight's Kansas - Kansas State game, Jon Barry made a reference to Oliver Miller which took me back two decades to my college days where me and a handful of my friends were in complete awe at how graceful such a ginormous and overweight player could be. Maybe we were wrong, but the general consensus was that Miller would be an All-Star regular if he was able to maintain a trim physique. We probably were wrong but there was a bit of truth in us thinking that ....

Anyway, since you guys are way smarter than I am. What would be your starting lineup for the most talented players that ate themselves out of the league? (Or never realized potential due to weight issues.)

A guy like Barkley wouldn't count for this exercise because I'm not sure how much his weight actually impacted his play. If it did, you could probably argue it helped Sir Charles as much as it hurt him. I'm not sure if you'd include a guy like Borris Diaw as a candidate or not since he's done ok with the extra weight. What I'm looking for is an "all-time" team of players that had their greatness impacted by their inability to refuse seconds.

I think Shawn Kemp might be a good candidate for PF. Then again, thin Shawn might have accumulated too much before he got fat. My bias chooses Miller for the starting center position but I think there are a lot of rivals. (Is Eddy Curry an all-time what could have been??? What if Shaq never added a spare tire?) I'm struggling with guards/wings. I think Baron Davis might be a candidate. Since I'm not expert I'm throwing it to you guys for ideas.

(And as somebody who doesn't post in this thread, no offense will be taken if you guys ignore this post. I appreciate the "work" you guys do in this thread. It's nice to skim through things and quickly be semi-aware of what's going on in the League and be able to speak semi-coherently with my friends.)
   35. no STIGGLES...no STIGGLES......you're the STIGGLES Posted: February 03, 2016 at 11:55 PM (#5149279)
ESPNStatsInfo
@ATLHawks 124 points are the most in a game in NBA history by a team that did not have a player reach the 15-point mark (via @eliassports)
   36. theboyqueen Posted: February 03, 2016 at 11:55 PM (#5149280)
C - Sean "Happy Meal" May
PF - Michael Sweetney
SF - John "Hot Plate" Williams
SG - Raymond Felton
PG - Khalid El-Amin
   37. theboyqueen Posted: February 03, 2016 at 11:56 PM (#5149281)
All of whom are probably better known to a college fan than a pro fan, since they were all busts of one sort or another.
   38. theboyqueen Posted: February 04, 2016 at 12:02 AM (#5149282)
Anthony Bennett and Joel Embiid are recent candidates, depending on where their careers go from here.
   39. Booey Posted: February 04, 2016 at 12:13 AM (#5149283)
Jazz win their 4th in a row! And even more impressive, their 2nd (!) close game in a row!!! Unfortunately, Portland has won 5 straight and 9 of 11 so the Jazz haven't gained any ground during their streak. Tough schedule coming up for the Blazers though (vs TOR, @ HOU, @ MEM, vs HOU, vs GSW, vs UTA), so that could change in a hurry.

#34 - Fun question, Topher. :-) Unfortunately, you already named all the guys I would've mentioned, so I'm not sure what else I can add.
   40. covelli chris p Posted: February 04, 2016 at 12:13 AM (#5149284)
wolves look pretty good when lavine isn't in the game ...
   41. Drexl Spivey Posted: February 04, 2016 at 12:30 AM (#5149287)
What would be your starting lineup for the most talented players that ate themselves out of the league? (Or never realized potential due to weight issues.)


I'd go with:

Khalid El-Amin
Baron Davis
(I cannot find a Small Forward)
"Tractor" Traylor
Oliver Miller

Edit: Tractor Traylor died of a heart attack in 2011. I'm out on this.
   42. PASTE does not get put on waivers in August Posted: February 04, 2016 at 12:34 AM (#5149289)
History records it was Oliver Miller about whom Charles Barkley (of all people) ranted, "He can't even reach the rim, unless they put a Big Mac on it."
   43. no STIGGLES...no STIGGLES......you're the STIGGLES Posted: February 04, 2016 at 12:41 AM (#5149290)
Edit: Tractor Traylor died of a heart attack in 2011. I'm out on this.
yeah, that got me, too.

   44. no STIGGLES...no STIGGLES......you're the STIGGLES Posted: February 04, 2016 at 03:53 AM (#5149294)
how about this as a countermeasure against tanking

for the purpose of playoff seeding, a team's record in the last 18 games of a regular season will count towards that team's record in the next season.
   45. King Mekong Posted: February 04, 2016 at 08:39 AM (#5149319)
33 - I'm also at 208. Finally in respectable territory!
   46. jmurph Posted: February 04, 2016 at 09:39 AM (#5149353)
Belinelli has been as bad as Stauskas and has played a zillion more minutes.


Belinelli has been terrible and has certainly played many more undeserved minutes but, amazingly, Stauskas has been even worse. PER: 10.1 to 8.4, WS/48: .033 to .006, BPM: -3.1 to -3.5.

   47. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: February 04, 2016 at 09:47 AM (#5149361)
Khalid El-Amin

He was just fat. He wasn't that talented, and wasn't any sort of bust or ever expected to be great. IMO.

How about Stacey King?
   48. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: February 04, 2016 at 10:45 AM (#5149394)
I think Baron Davis might be a candidate.
This one was a true shame, especially for UCLA fans. Between Jordan and Gerald Green (I know, I know), Davis was perhaps the greatest physical talent to enter the NBA. That bad knee contributed to his decline, of course, but by the time he came back to LA as a Clipper, it was obvious he had begun ordering seconds and thirds during meal time.
   49. sardonic Posted: February 04, 2016 at 11:58 AM (#5149445)
Warriors fans will always remember Davis for posterizing AK47. Talk about athleticism... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w_1ZEk4mds
   50. Manny Coon Posted: February 04, 2016 at 12:22 PM (#5149461)
Baron's injuries played a big part in his weight gain, the types of injuries he had were largely treated with rest and Baron was a guy who kept his weight in check by working out hard, although his diet likely wasn't helping. Jared Dudley's weight gain his year with the Clippers was similar, he had severe knee tendinitis and had to significantly cut with workouts.
   51. Booey Posted: February 04, 2016 at 12:26 PM (#5149464)
Warriors fans will always remember Davis for posterizing AK47. Talk about athleticism... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w_1ZEk4mds


Jazz fans remember that too. I could've done without the Girls Gone Wild act afterwards, though.
   52. Der-K: downgraded to lurker Posted: February 04, 2016 at 12:44 PM (#5149480)
el amin opened a restaurant post playing career
   53. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: February 04, 2016 at 01:28 PM (#5149507)
That's a helluva headline, ESPN:

Larry Bird will die young. Just ask him.
   54. jmurph Posted: February 04, 2016 at 01:32 PM (#5149510)
Larry Bird will die


Just a formality. He'll be back after the requisite three day waiting period.
   55. no STIGGLES...no STIGGLES......you're the STIGGLES Posted: February 04, 2016 at 01:33 PM (#5149513)
That's a helluva headline, ESPN:

Larry Bird will die young. Just ask him.
shades of roddy piper there. when piper was 50 years old, he said he wouldn't live to see his pension at 65; he died at 61.


this thread is off to a terrible start.
   56. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: February 04, 2016 at 01:34 PM (#5149515)
I'm reading the article now. Man.

Bless Bill Walton though. What a treasure.
   57. . . . . . . . . . . Posted: February 04, 2016 at 01:49 PM (#5149523)
Bird, who has an enlarged heart, was diagnosed in 1995 with atrial fibrillation, an abnormal heartbeat resulting from electrical signals being generated chaotically throughout the heart's upper chambers. With proper medication, exercise and diet, atrial fibrillation can be controlled, but Bird abhorred medication and was prone to skipping his pills. Part of the reason, he admits, was his own fatalistic view of what the future would bring.


This is, it must be said, colossally stupid and basically suicidal behavior. I have a-fib (since my 20s) because my family has a rather rare form of familial a-fib. You don't even need to worry about your diet or exercise (though obviously, managing your diet and exercise is good for heart health generally). All you have to do is (1) take your damn pills and (2) if the pills stop working, let the doctor know ASAP. If you handle it right, a fib should basically be a total non issue. The only things you can't do are run marathons, get shitfaced drunk and, well, cocaine.

That's it. It sounds like Bird let himself flip into - and stay in - a-fib for long enough that his heart remodeled and now he does have long term health problems. Totally self-inflicted.

End game for that isn't necessarily heart failure - if he's flipping in and out of a-fib and still cavalier with his meds, he's going to have a stroke eventually, like my cousin. And your dementia risk increases dramatically over the general population in your 70s if you stay in a-fib.

####, if all I had to worry about was keeling over at 70, I wouldn't be so careful about it.
   58. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: February 04, 2016 at 01:54 PM (#5149528)
What about Stanley Roberts? Teammate of Shaq and Chris Jackson at LSU, drafted one pick ahead of Rick Fox, played nine seasons but was out of the league at 29 and never played more than 25 MPG. He is still alive though!

   59. smileyy Posted: February 04, 2016 at 01:58 PM (#5149531)
I was about to mention Stanley Roberts! Man...how about a can of seltzer?

I'm thinking its really hard to separate performance fall-offs from weight gain from other potentially related issues of injuries, alcohol, and other drug use. I get the feeling there's a lot of interacting co-morbidities there. Does he suck because he's fat? Does he suck because he drinks, and he's also fat because he drinks?
   60. Rob_Wood Posted: February 04, 2016 at 02:00 PM (#5149533)
Today's ESPN top 100 countdowns:
ESPN Me
16    8  Karl Malone
17   15  Dirk Nowitzki_a
18   20  Charles Barkley
19   30  John Stockton
20   19  David Robinson 
   61. billyshears Posted: February 04, 2016 at 02:07 PM (#5149535)
What about Stanley Roberts? Teammate of Shaq and Chris Jackson at LSU, drafted one pick ahead of Rick Fox, played nine seasons but was out of the league at 29 and never played more than 25 MPG. He is still alive though!


I was 100% sure this post was going to end by telling me that he was dead.
   62. jmurph Posted: February 04, 2016 at 02:11 PM (#5149539)
16    8  Karl Malone
17   15  Dirk Nowitzki_a
18   20  Charles Barkley
19   30  John Stockton
20   19  David Robinson


The point guard rankings have been a little wacky. They had Isiah ahead of Paul, so we know it's not about career value (or peak, or prime, or anything, but I digress). So other than career value I guess I don't see the case for Stockton ahead of Paul, either. And career value is nearly even in VORP, though Stockton is obviously waaaaay ahead in WS, given his longevity.
   63. aberg Posted: February 04, 2016 at 02:11 PM (#5149540)
Ray Felton almost ate his way out of the league and then somehow got back into shape and is pretty good again.

Boris Diaw tried to eat his way out of the league. Eddie Curry and Shawn Kemp both got really fat.
   64. Booey Posted: February 04, 2016 at 02:19 PM (#5149549)
#60 - That fur-ner Dirk had to ruin an otherwise all Dream Team installment of the top 100 countdown...
   65. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: February 04, 2016 at 02:22 PM (#5149552)
Nowitzki being rated higher than Robinson irks me.
   66. Booey Posted: February 04, 2016 at 02:23 PM (#5149554)
The point guard rankings have been a little wacky. They had Isiah ahead of Paul, so we know it's not about career value (or peak, or prime, or anything, but I digress). So other than career value I guess I don't see the case for Stockton ahead of Paul, either. And career value is nearly even in VORP, though Stockton is obviously waaaaay ahead in WS, given his longevity.


I think the problem is that Isiah is just plain overrated, on every list. People have always ranked him more by 'gut feelings' than by actual statistics. To many, a back-to-back championship team just HAS to have an all time great on it, period.

Edit: Stockton vs Paul - It's not just longevity, but in season durability too. Stock missed games - any games - just twice in his 19 year career. He played every game for almost 6 full seasons - at the ages of 35-41, and including playoffs every year - after having major knee surgery. Paul's rate stats are a bit better but his missed games probably make him less valuable overall in all but his healthiest couple of seasons. But if CP3 lasts a long time, I could see him passing Stock.
   67. Famous Original Joe C Posted: February 04, 2016 at 02:28 PM (#5149557)
Nowitzki being rated higher than Robinson irks me.


Agreed. I'm in the camp that Robinson's statistical profile somewhat overstates his actual value, but the gulf between those two guys defensively is too much to overcome IMO.

I'm also with Booey on Stockton vs. Paul - Stockton's career numbers are overwhelming. That said, Paul's peak is higher and if he lasts ~5 more years with reasonably good health and performance he'll pass Stock.
   68. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: February 04, 2016 at 02:35 PM (#5149565)
Not an eater, but was Jerry Stackhouse a good player? He had a long career and is #100 in all-time points, but shot a low percentage and was not known as a defender.
   69. Manny Coon Posted: February 04, 2016 at 02:35 PM (#5149566)
I think Malone over Robinson is worse than Nowitzki. Malone lasted forever, but Robinson was clearly better in the regular and post season and did eventually win some championships. Nowitzki at least has the undisputed star of championship thing going for him.
   70. Booey Posted: February 04, 2016 at 02:47 PM (#5149577)
I think Malone over Robinson is worse than Nowitzki. Malone lasted forever, but Robinson was clearly better in the regular and post season and did eventually win some championships. Nowitzki at least has the undisputed star of championship thing going for him.


If we're just looking at titles, Robinson and Nowitzki also had the 'didn't have to play Michael Jordan in the Finals' thing going for them, too. Bill Simmons for one likes to give Malone a lot of crap about the 1997 Finals (when he was playing with a broken finger, IIRC), but Karl actually played really well in the 1998 Finals. He was the only Jazz player to bother showing up in that 42 point beatdown game, and his game 5 in Chicago is one of the best Finals performances of all time. And although he's mostly remembered for getting the ball stripped by Jordan in the final seconds of Game 6, he played very well overall in that game, too.

Is there any doubt that if the Jazz could've gotten to the Finals just one year later, they would've beaten the 1999 Knicks like Robinson did to win his first title? Admiral's 2nd title actually came against one of the least impressive modern Finals teams too (the 49 win 2003 Nets).

That said, I actually would've ranked Robinson over Malone too (and did in our rankings a couple years ago). Like you said, his stats for both the regular season and post season are better. I just don't think the titles thing is really a significant part of it. Too much of that depends on timing and other things a player can't control.
   71. Athletic Supporter was shiny, now he's all rusted Posted: February 04, 2016 at 02:49 PM (#5149579)
I think the problem is that Isiah is just plain overrated, on every list. People have always ranked him more by 'gut feelings' than by actual statistics. To many, a back-to-back championship team just HAS to have an all time great on it, period.


How does this differ from the case for Russell, who most people believe was top five all-time? If you look at the stats, I know they didn't keep block totals then, but you have to ascribe a ton of them to reconcile his stats with his reputation.

Note: Russell is surely a much better player than Isiah. But when you compare Russell against guys like Wilt or Kareem you have to make some pretty crazy assumptions about untracked stats to get him close statistically. 9 rings is a stronger argument than 2 rings, but it's the same argument, just with different stakes.
   72. Booey Posted: February 04, 2016 at 02:57 PM (#5149585)
#71 - I agree for the most part, but one legit difference IMO is that defense is so much harder to assign proper value to that if Russell really was the best defender ever like so many claim, it really would be hard to pinpoint exactly how good he was compared to the other greats. Even so, yeah, putting him above Wilt or Kareem always seemed crazy to me. But where should he rate compared to Shaq, Olajuwon, Robinson, or Duncan? That's a tough question to answer.

And Russell had 11 rings, not 9. Any scrub can win 9. ;-)
   73. jmurph Posted: February 04, 2016 at 03:03 PM (#5149590)
Stockton vs Paul - It's not just longevity, but in season durability too. Stock missed games - any games - just twice in his 19 year career. He played every game for almost 6 full seasons - at the ages of 35-41, and including playoffs every year - after having major knee surgery. Paul's rate stats are a bit better but his missed games probably make him less valuable overall in all but his healthiest couple of seasons. But if CP3 lasts a long time, I could see him passing Stock.


By VORP, Paul has 6 seasons thus far better than Stockton's best. By WS he has 3 better than Stockton's best. By BPM it's 9 seasons better than Stock.

Of the 10 best WS seasons between the 2, they each have 5.

I don't know. Stockton's durability and sustained excellence is incredible, but I still don't see the case.
   74. Famous Original Joe C Posted: February 04, 2016 at 03:05 PM (#5149595)
9 rings is a stronger argument than 2 rings, but it's the same argument, just with different stakes.


We discussed it on the last thread, but Russell's defense grades out at roughly +7 points per game per Dean Oliver's Basketball on Paper (+6 per game for his career, making an allowance for his averaging about 42 minutes). One estimate, grains of salt, but that'd be easily the best all time comparing to DBPM. Forget who made the point there, but his dominance relative to the league he was in (because of the relative lack of athleticism) could easily have been well beyond what a typical great player's might be in today's game.

It's also fair to say Russell is probably a little overrated relative to his stats - but when you are the best player on a team that wins 11 times in 13 seasons (okay, he was probably only the best guy on 9 of those teams but still), that's probably the single strongest argument for postseason credit of any athlete in any sport.
   75. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: February 04, 2016 at 03:07 PM (#5149597)
   76. Norcan Posted: February 04, 2016 at 03:08 PM (#5149599)
Boris Diaw tried to eat his way out of the league.


Maybe his diet hasn't gotten worse or he's become more active but he's seemingly retained every ounce of weight he gained while trying to eat his way out of the league. Since he handles his weight pretty well, with his agility hardly compromised, he's been at a good power to athleticism ratio for a while now. His wide load behind seems to help him keep defenders sealed off in the post as he dances left and right.

Apparently Milwaukee is ready to make over their roster again, with Monroe and MCW being their top targets to unload. I actually hope for Jabari's sake that he can get out there. For some reason he's actually their fifth option on the floor most of the time. He has to have the fewest possession rate numbers on their team. It's infuriating if you're like me and you tune in to watch his progress and all you see are the other four guys take their turns while Jabari just stands around on the weakside. They have to have the fewest hockey assists in the league.
   77. jmurph Posted: February 04, 2016 at 03:15 PM (#5149606)
I still haven't given up on the idea that Monroe can be a starter on a really good team, but finding the right fit will always be tricky given his inability to protect the rim.
   78. Booey Posted: February 04, 2016 at 03:23 PM (#5149618)
#73 - Hmmm. I hadn't looked at the numbers for a while and didn't know the difference was that great. I've always been more of a career over peak guy though, so I'd still probably give Stock the edge as of now. I mentioned in my last edit on that post that I could see Paul passing Stock, so I'll upgrade that position from 'possible' to 'probable.' It would basically take a real cliff dive from CP3 for it not to happen.
   79. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: February 04, 2016 at 03:28 PM (#5149622)
I'm surprised the difference is that large by BPM, but Paul shoots a lot more often (a good thing in this case), turns the ball over a lot less, and plays better defense. Booey, was Stockton below average defensively in his prime? I'm too young to remember, but my impression is that his poor defensive reputation is mostly because people remember him in his mid-30s and later.
   80. King Mekong Posted: February 04, 2016 at 03:30 PM (#5149628)
Year by year SAS O and D rating.
88-89 Off Rtg: 100.9 (23rd of 25) ▪ Def Rtg: 107.9 (13th of 25)(No Robinson)
89-90 Off Rtg: 107.7 (15th of 27) ▪ Def Rtg: 104.2 (3rd of 27) (Robinson Rookie)
90-91 Off Rtg: 107.8 (14th of 27) ▪ Def Rtg: 103.3 (1st of 27) (Last Larry Brown)
91-92 Off Rtg: 107.5 (14th of 27) ▪ Def Rtg: 104.1 (1st of 27) (3 coaches)
92-93 Off Rtg: 109.6 (8th of 27)  ▪ Def Rtg: 106.8 (10th of 27)(John Lucas coaches)
93-94 Off Rtg: 110.4 (4th of 27)  ▪ Def Rtg: 104.6 (9th of 27) (Bob Hill coaches)
94-95 Off Rtg: 111.7 (5th of 27)  ▪ Def Rtg: 105.4 (5th of 27) 
95-96 Off Rtg: 110.2 (9th of 29)  ▪ Def Rtg: 103.5 (3rd of 29) 
96-97 Off Rtg: 103.3 (27th of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 112.3 (29th of 29)(Robinson Hurt, 1st Popovich)
97-98 Off Rtg: 103.8 (17th of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 99.4  (2nd of 29) (1st Duncan)
98-99 Off Rtg: 104.0 (11th of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 95.0  (1st of 29) (1st title)
99-00 Off Rtg: 105.0 (12th of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 98.6  (2nd of 29) 
00-01 Off Rtg: 106.6 (6th of 29)  ▪ Def Rtg: 98.0  (1st of 29) 
01-02 Off Rtg: 106.5 (9th of 29)  ▪ Def Rtg: 99.7  (2nd of 29) 
02-03 Off Rtg: 105.6 (7th of 29)  ▪ Def Rtg: 99.7  (3rd of 29) (Last Robinson) (2nd Title)
03-04 Off Rtg: 102.2 (16th of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 94.1  (1st of 29) (1st Nesterovic)

edit: prettified the table; Robinson was a top 10 defense unto himself.
   81. Booey Posted: February 04, 2016 at 03:35 PM (#5149635)
Booey, was Stockton below average defensively in his prime? I'm too young to remember, but my impression is that his poor defensive reputation is mostly because people remember him in his mid-30s and later.


To my junior high aged eye, I though Stock was a pretty good defender in his prime. Not Gary Payton good, of course, but he got a lot of steals with his quick hands (some of which would be called fouls today, but hey, them's the rules of the times). I agree that his poor defensive reputation came about mostly cuz no one really noticed him until the Jazz made the Finals, and by then he was 35 and 36 y.o.
   82. no STIGGLES...no STIGGLES......you're the STIGGLES Posted: February 04, 2016 at 03:38 PM (#5149640)
[76] harveys posted this when we did our mock draft:
others have this covered but as someone who interacts with the business side of the team i can state with great certainty that milwaukee wouldn't trade parker for anyone in the league. at any price. parker would have to be busted for child molestation or cheering for the cubs for the team to even consider trading him at this point in his career
   83. jmurph Posted: February 04, 2016 at 03:46 PM (#5149648)
I never thought of Stockton as a bad defender, but I also don't remember his early years. DBPM has him as a slight negative every single year of his career, but his DWS numbers look okay. I honestly have no idea how much faith we're supposed to put in either of those.

On the Paul comparison, I think it's very likely that Paul will finish as the 2nd best PG of all time when he retires. By the numbers it's even probable he'll pass Magic, though I imagine a lot of observers would still take Magic at number 1. I'm just saying that though I would put Paul ahead of Stockton, that isn't exactly an insult.
   84. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: February 04, 2016 at 03:47 PM (#5149650)
edit: prettified the table; Robinson was a top 10 defense unto himself.

Sure, and Duncan was top 3 on his own for a while there.
   85. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: February 04, 2016 at 04:05 PM (#5149670)
Mike Monroe ‏@Monroe_SA 20m20 minutes ago Killeen, TX
Per #Spurs, @manuginobili out at least a month after surgery to repair a testicular injury suffered last night.
   86. Rob_Wood Posted: February 04, 2016 at 04:09 PM (#5149674)
Remember when Bill James opined that a baseball player's ultimate reputation (vis a vis Hall of Fame voting) will largely depend upon his stats. Over time everything else such as narratives decline in importance and eventually die away.

I think basketball, to a large degree, is just the opposite. Since basketball is not as stats-dominant as is baseball, it is a player's stats that are at jeopardy of dieing away over time. And his narrative can grow in stature over time and dwarf all else. Basketball is a much more visceral experience for fans and all observers. We can see what "winning" and "losing" looks like, up close and personal.

It is virtually impossible to discuss any all-time great without having their narrative front-and-center in one's mind. So some guys like Isiah Thomas, Bill Walton, Pete Maravich, James Worthy, and David Thompson (nothing against these guys, just using them as examples) are over-rated and will forever be so. And other guys will be forever under-rated (wow, none immediately jump to mind).
   87. jmurph Posted: February 04, 2016 at 04:18 PM (#5149683)
Mike Monroe ‏@Monroe_SA 20m20 minutes ago Killeen, TX
Per #Spurs, @manuginobili out at least a month after surgery to repair a testicular injury suffered last night.


Ahem. Tap tap tap. Have I been beaten to "ball don't lie?"
   88. Booey Posted: February 04, 2016 at 04:21 PM (#5149685)
And other guys will be forever under-rated (wow, none immediately jump to mind).


Robinson, for sure. I think he'll always be remembered as a guy who couldn't get it done in the playoffs (no Finals appearances, only 1 conference finals) until Timmy showed up and Admiral became 2nd fiddle. But Robinson's regular season (and playoff, actually) numbers are way better than most people give him credit for, and he was just as big a reason for the Spurs 1999 title as Duncan was.

KG is another. I haven't seen him crack the top 20 on any list except our own. Too much of his career was wasted with crappy teammates in Minnesota for him to have the playoff success of essentially equal contemporaries like Kobe and Duncan. He won a title, but only after joining a superfriends team with 2 other HOFers. I suspect Dirk would've been on the underrated list forever if that 2011 title hadn't happened.

If Chris Paul never wins a title, I could see him ending up on the 'forever underrated' list.
   89. PASTE does not get put on waivers in August Posted: February 04, 2016 at 04:46 PM (#5149707)
KG's career superficially looks like Barkley's, only better.
   90. Der-K: downgraded to lurker Posted: February 04, 2016 at 05:34 PM (#5149750)
The vox populi seem to hold that Stockton was bad on D, but some sources were high on him - the Barry/Cohn annuals thought he was good-to-stellar. I thought he was pretty good.
Also, dirty as hell (a complement coming from me). Really, very much like Chris Paul as a player.
   91. Booey Posted: February 04, 2016 at 05:43 PM (#5149753)
Also, dirty as hell (a complement coming from me). Really, very much like Chris Paul as a player.

The similarities between Stockton/Malone and Paul/Griffen are hard not to notice; efficient, fundamentally sound, pass-first PG, muscular PF. Both duo's often accused of being dirty/floppy/whiny and widely disliked outside of their own fanbase. Both tandems also considered playoff underachievers (though to defend my boys, they had 5 playoff runs longer than any Griffen/Paul have had so far).

But as many others have said many times, it's all about the laundry. I hate Griffen and Paul, yet I doubt I'll ever like another player as much as I loved Stockton and Malone.
   92. Rob_Wood Posted: February 04, 2016 at 07:24 PM (#5149806)
Interesting matchup currently on TNT. Marv Albert vs. Reggie Miller & Chris Webber.
   93. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: February 04, 2016 at 07:44 PM (#5149818)
Sure, and Duncan was top 3 on his own for a while there.

Well, if you look at that, Robinson was pretty much that too. Yeah, there was a year or two in there where they were "only" an above average defense.

Duncan really kills Robinson on longevity, but Robinson is clearly better on offensive and defensive peak to me.

I also think Duncan played with a better defensive team. Bowen for a lot of his career, Leonard recently, Ginobili was quite good early in his career. Duncan's gotten to play with another big a lot of the time to help avoid banging and protect the rim.

Parker sucks at defense but he's no worse than Avery Johnson.

And Pop is a hell of a coach.

I don't think it's fair to say that Duncan hasn't had any help defensively.
   94. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: February 04, 2016 at 08:03 PM (#5149837)
Ive moved 4 different times since the last time my beloved pistons have been on tnt. But all the announcers will discuss is the Knicks and if they are playing hard. Oh well. Still cool to hear Marv do a Pistons game.
   95. jmurph Posted: February 04, 2016 at 08:12 PM (#5149853)
Ive moved 4 different times since the last time my beloved pistons have been on tnt. But all the announcers will discuss is the Knicks and if they are playing hard. Oh well. Still cool to hear Marv do a Pistons game.


Hey, enjoy the fact that your guys are more than doubling them up in the first half!
   96. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: February 04, 2016 at 08:15 PM (#5149856)
Oh enjoying it for sure. Really shouldn't complain after the last seven seasons. Whatever it's been. Hopefully first of many national games over next few years, but I'm hesitant to get too optimistic.
   97. Thok Posted: February 04, 2016 at 08:30 PM (#5149869)
For those who care about quirky college basketball, Max Hooper still has yet to attempt a 2 pt shot this season. (He's averaging 11.5 points a game, by shooting .466 from 3 point land.)
   98. Tin Angel Posted: February 04, 2016 at 09:06 PM (#5149895)
One would think, listening to these announcers, that Carmelo deserves some type of award for passing to open teammates and allowing them to shoot.
   99. Oriole Tragic feels the flip of you Posted: February 04, 2016 at 09:09 PM (#5149901)
It would basically take a real cliff dive from CP3 for it not to happen.

I see what you did there.
   100. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: February 04, 2016 at 09:28 PM (#5149921)
Guess not ready for the national tv audience!
Page 1 of 19 pages  1 2 3 >  Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
TedBerg
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOTP: 28 November 2016: Bud Selig reminisces about 1999 MLB trip to Cuba, meeting Fidel Castro
(1690 - 7:14am, Dec 04)
Last: Joyful Calculus Instructor

NewsblogA’s, Yonder Alonso agree on new deal
(19 - 2:15am, Dec 04)
Last: DFA

NewsblogOT - November* 2016 College Football thread
(558 - 2:15am, Dec 04)
Last: cmd600

NewsblogCarlos Beltran agrees to one-year, $16M deal with Astros
(14 - 12:38am, Dec 04)
Last: Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet

NewsblogBraves Acquire Jaime Garcia
(24 - 11:41pm, Dec 03)
Last: flournoy

NewsblogCubs sign outfielder Jay to 1-year contract
(9 - 11:34pm, Dec 03)
Last: PreservedFish

NewsblogVenezuelan players rally behind Omar Vizquel, threaten WBC boycott
(45 - 11:29pm, Dec 03)
Last: SoSHially Unacceptable

Hall of Merit2017 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion
(160 - 11:03pm, Dec 03)
Last: Bleed the Freak

NewsblogOT: NBA 2016-17 Preseason Thread
(1136 - 10:49pm, Dec 03)
Last: jmurph

Newsblog2016 Non-Tender Tracker
(5 - 9:15pm, Dec 03)
Last: puck

NewsblogHall of Fame: Bud Selig lock for election on Today's Game ballot | SI.com
(18 - 6:54pm, Dec 03)
Last: David Nieporent (now, with children)

NewsblogLifetime Achievement Award: Peter Gammons | BaseballAmerica.com
(135 - 6:32pm, Dec 03)
Last: Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play

NewsblogD-Backs nontender Wellington Castillo, sign Jeff Mathis
(6 - 6:14pm, Dec 03)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogFree-agent catcher Jeff Mathis signs with Diamondbacks
(2 - 6:10pm, Dec 03)
Last: Matt Welch

NewsblogColumn: Nationals Must Go For It All To Win With Harper
(1 - 2:57pm, Dec 03)
Last: Jose Remains The Most Absurd Thing on the Site

Page rendered in 0.5337 seconds
47 querie(s) executed