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Friday, August 01, 2014

OT: Monthly NBA Thread - August 2014

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: the history of Algeria??  ####### seriously???  #############…

Ahhh… that’s better.

 

The District Attorney Posted: August 01, 2014 at 01:25 PM | 383 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   1. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 01, 2014 at 01:51 PM (#4762580)
Great lead in DA. Thanks for the thread set up.
   2. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: August 01, 2014 at 01:51 PM (#4762582)
I'll throw up the jump ball with a Phoenix radio jock's essay unloading on Bledsoe's agent:
So your agent overvalued you. It happens. You are not the first and you won't be the last to think you are worth more than you really are. You should have gotten better advice, more realistic advice.

But back to your agent making you look bad. Now some puppet writer from Comcast named Chris Haynes writes an article so slanted toward your side that you would believe that your agent wrote it himself. An article that talks about your relationship with the Suns being ruined and close to irreparable and the Suns undermining your value and how you are angered. Wow, did your agent pay this clown to write this or just pay him to print it? I mean he can't honestly believe what he is writing.

So let's do this. Let's repair this relationship with the Suns that your side believes is in shambles.

Fire your agent. Get some real representation. Start over.
   3. rr Posted: August 01, 2014 at 02:00 PM (#4762592)
Simply due to the nature of the sports I'm more confident the 76ers plan will work out than I am the Cubs or Astros will.

Yup.

---

I would look at it this way: even if Bryant and some of the other Cubs prospects don't work out as well as they hope, the Cubs will probably be able to get themselves into the playoff scrum at some point, and once that happens, you never know. In baseball, having a lot of prospects can help you. And we have seen 87-win teams in the WS. It works the other way, too, of course. But also, there is no cap in baseball, the Cubs play in a big market, and I am guessing that if Epstein and Hoyer get the team to more or less where Oakland and Detroit are now, the Cubs will be doing stuff like trading for Lester and Price.

Basketball doesn't really work that way; going into a season, we can pretty much identify the top 5 or so contenders and one of them usually wins, and there are very few playoff upsets.

Looking at Bryant specifically, right now he looks like he could be an awesome hitter. But even if he is just a good hitter, and that seems like a lock, he will help the Cubs.

Also, Hinkie's plan is not based on putting together a pretty good team. He is selling the possibility of a great team. 47-35 isn't what he's going for here. So, what I think you are saying when you are betting on Hinkie is that:

Embiid is coming next year, and he is coming strong
Noel is going to be really, really good
They are going to nail their picks this coming year
Saric is going to be good and worth the wait

That is a lot of confidence to have in the plan.

As I see it, a lot of Hinkie's eggs are now in the Embiid basket. The higher lottery pick in this draft was one of the main assets that the 76ers had, and Hinkie spent it on a guy who

a) Has some very serious health questions.
b) Is not a Shaq/Admiral level prospect anyway.

Does that mean it was a mistake? No. I like Embiid, and I think he was probably worth the risk. But this isn't baseball where if Embiid misses, you can try again with another 17-year-old phenom from the DR. The odds are better, but the options are fewer.

OK, maybe they get Jalil Okafor, but there are no guarantees of that. And Embiid has a low floor; his possibilities go all the way down to being Greg Oden.
   4. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: August 01, 2014 at 02:10 PM (#4762608)
I agree that Embiid has some very serious health concerns, but saying he's "not a Shaq/Admiral level prospect anyway" is misleading in the sense that the guy most wanted to compare him to was Hakeem, which isn't that far off and is still a #1 on a championship team.

Also, Hinkie's plan is not based on putting together a pretty good team. He is selling the possibility of a great team.

Aren't the Cubs selling the same possibility of greatness? I guess my skepticism more based on the flameout rate of baseball prospects in general and the fact that Kris Bryant striking out in 1/3 of his at bats worries me. If Embiid is as good as many think he is, then Sixers are guaranteed to be at least good for quite some time. If Noel is as good defensively as the numbers say he could be then the Sixers are guaranteed to be at least mediocre for quite some time, maybe better. Both plans carry risks, but when you are betting on high end talent (A) you need less of them to succeed in the NBA and (b) their development seems to be more predictable in basketball.
   5. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: August 01, 2014 at 02:24 PM (#4762626)
No one should ever be compared to Hakeem Olajuwon. His like will never be seen again.

I like the Embiid pick for Philadelphia, though probably not for the reasons others do.
   6. AROM Posted: August 01, 2014 at 02:28 PM (#4762629)
I would have called Hakeem a Shaq/Admiral level prospect during the 84 draft, assuming that in 1984 I would have known what that meant. I guess I could have called him a Wilt/Kareem level prospect.

Joel Embiid is not at that level. Even if he were healthy.
   7. Manny Coon Posted: August 01, 2014 at 02:28 PM (#4762630)
Again, it's been 13 months. Shouldn't we give this some time? None of the high-upside guys they drafted have even played an NBA game yet but we want them to start spending money as if they're ready to win now?


That's not really what I was suggesting though, which is why I suggested making offers for younger guys. If you don't like the RFAs though, there are other ways of leveraging cap space without taking on bigger money long term if you don't want. Der-K gave a few examples in the last thread, others include the way Phoenix got Bledsoe in first place, Toronto's deal for Lowry, Phoenix taking Marcus Morris a cheap dump trade, Charlotte's trade for McRoberts, Portland signing Robin Lopez for cheap, etc..., moves that don't bust your future cap space if you don't want them to, but still give additional assets and/or players with upside to work with.
   8. The District Attorney Posted: August 01, 2014 at 02:29 PM (#4762631)
I agree that Embiid has some very serious health concerns, but saying he's "not a Shaq/Admiral level prospect anyway" is misleading in the sense that the guy most wanted to compare him to was Hakeem, which isn't that far off and is still a #1 on a championship team.
I know that this is going to probably start some sort of ridiculous debate, but Hakeem was better than Admiral. ;-)

Yeah, I also found myself agreeing with a lot of #3, but not necessarily the part about "selling the possibility of a great team." I think that depends on how bad a shape you think the Sixers were in to begin with. That is the thing about the Astros. Luhnow inherited literally the worst situation I could think of, other than the fact that Houston is a big city. They had the worst major league team and the worst farm system. (Perhaps if Amaro can keep running the team five more years, we'll see its like again.) When you have nothing, you can't do anything. The Astros were obligated to do a rebuild so deep that it had not -- nor should have been -- embarked upon by anyone else, because everyone else at least started off with something to work with. They don't have to win the World Series for their approach to be a success. They have to not die in a ditch, which is what was about to happen to them.

So, spending a few years to get to 47 wins could be a fine outcome for the Sixers, if you think the starting point was so dire that a less dramatic rebuild had no chance to work and only would have sucked them further into the quicksand. I would really have to go back and look at the state of the franchise at that point to determine that.
   9. cmd600 Posted: August 01, 2014 at 02:29 PM (#4762633)
Why then is everybody so irate about Cleveland winning three times in four years? What's the difference, other than personal distaste about Gilbert?


Because they are run ineptly, at almost a comical level. They aren't going to win a bunch of games this year because they knew what they were doing. They're going to win a bunch of games because Gilbert is the modern-day Faust. As a Cavs fans, I damn well admit that this team doesn't deserve anything it's gotten. But I'll still be glad to reap any rewards and tell myself that deserve's got nothin to do with it.
   10. rr Posted: August 01, 2014 at 02:30 PM (#4762634)
I agree that Embiid has some very serious health concerns, but saying he's "not a Shaq/Admiral level prospect anyway" is misleading in the sense that the guy most wanted to compare him to was Hakeem, which isn't that far off and is still a #1 on a championship team.


Olajuwon is Embiid's absolute ceiling, and the chances of that are slim. Guys that good simply don't come around very often. And I say that as a big supporter of Embiid. And Olajuwon never had anything close to the kinds of health questions that Embiid does.

(A) you need less of them to succeed in the NBA and (b) their development seems to be more predictable in basketball.


Those are both true statements, but the other side is that you really, really, hurt your team when you miss with a Top 4 lottery pick, and that you can't really "stock your farm system" the way you can in baseball. You need to nail those high picks.

Hinkie could have taken Dante Exum, who doesn't have Embiid's ceiling, but looks like he can be a really good player, is very young, (younger than Embiid) and is healthy. Hinkie then could have spent the later pick on a guy who could play this year and next--and still been in position to draft very high again in 2015.

Would that have been a better plan? I don't know. But I think you can make the argument. Noel and Exum would have been a nice, long-range inside/outside pairing going forward. Noel turned 20 four months ago, and Exum is still 19.
   11. rr Posted: August 01, 2014 at 02:33 PM (#4762638)
As a Cavs fans, I damn well admit that this team doesn't deserve anything it's gotten. But I'll still be glad to reap any rewards and tell myself that deserve's got nothin to do with it.


As a Lakers fan who is still bitter about the Veto and about Gilbert's email thereof, I have complained a lot about Gilbert and will complain about him again. But I think most of us can agree that Gilbert notwithstanding, if any city's sports fans "deserve" a huge series of breaks, it's Cleveland's.
   12. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: August 01, 2014 at 04:39 PM (#4762722)
Olajuwon is Embiid's absolute ceiling, and the chances of that are slim. Guys that good simply don't come around very often. And I say that as a big supporter of Embiid. And Olajuwon never had anything close to the kinds of health questions that Embiid does.

Agreed on all counts.

Robinred, I agree with most of your #3, other than that I'm not sure how best to work with your holding basketball teams to a higher standard for what constitutes success than baseball teams. To the extent that that's true, that argues for more of a boom/bust mentality - you might need to take more risks in order to get a high calibre core.

Taking Exum might have made tanking easier for Philly - I'm not convinced that he's all that NBA ready (though I like him a lot) and you could get away with force feeding him minutes.
   13. smileyy Posted: August 01, 2014 at 04:43 PM (#4762726)

b) Is not a Shaq/Admiral level prospect anyway.


Embiid isn't? Isn't his 99% estimation something like Hakeem Olajuwon?

Edit: Coke to [4]
   14. smileyy Posted: August 01, 2014 at 04:45 PM (#4762727)
Olajuwon is Embiid's absolute ceiling, and the chances of that are slim. Guys that good simply don't come around very often.


Thing is, Olajuwon is Olajuwon's ceiling. Guys that good _do_ come around sometimes. You _have_ to take that upside risk, because the effects are transformative for your franchise.
   15. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: August 01, 2014 at 05:20 PM (#4762761)
I like Exum more than Embiid due to the latter's injury concerns, but I can see the Sixers being a poor fit already having MCW (though again I like Exum more) and feeling that having Noel makes gambling on Embiid's health worthwhile.

Also, count me amongst those who has no problem with the Sixers' draft picks or attempts to be bad, with the caveat that I do have slight problems with their trade of Hawes and would have major issues if they deal Young for practically nothing, particularly mid season. The fact that they still couldn't get the #1 pick also makes me think there's not much benefit to tanking to that extent. I'm not convinced this will work, mind you. I'm skeptical of Embiid lasting as an impact player any longer than Oden did.

Finally, while I'm not opposed to reforming the lottery, I'm fine with how it is. And I would love to see the overlap between people legitimately upset at both the Cavs winning it again and teams tanking, since anti-tankers should, in principal, be happy to see a team who tried for the playoffs win the lottery. Were the results this year really so horrid for them? The Cavs and Bucks both tried to be good this past year, and the most tanktastic team ended up with a big man with about the scariest injury history imaginable. Even assuming the Sixers' approach is bad for the NBA, I don't see their results encouraging any other teams to emulate them.

I also think that improving the odds too much in the favor of late lottery teams could have far worse results, like teams making up injuries late in the season a la the Warriors in Mark Jackson's first year as coach.
   16. rr Posted: August 01, 2014 at 05:40 PM (#4762776)
Embiid isn't?


IMO, no. O'Neal and Robinson were consensus #1s and were seen to be franchise players before they left college. They were bigger, stronger, better and more developed than Embiid, even a healthy Embiid, would be/is.

Embiid is a big deal because he has some very unusual physical traits and could be an All-Star. But projecting him to be an all-time great is a long reach. As Simmons detailed in TBOB, Olajuwon's career arc was very unusual. The excitement around Embiid comes from the similarities between him and Olajuwon. But that is still a reach, and I think the injuries changed the game--they are why Embiid went at 3 instead of 1. I think if he has a good a career as Tyson Chandler has had, he will be doing great.

other than that I'm not sure how best to work with your holding basketball teams to a higher standard for what constitutes success than baseball teams.


Well, two points:

1. I think it is much more likely for an 87-75 team to catch some breaks and fly a flag than it is for a 46-36 team to catch some and put up a banner. And I think that Luhnow and Hoyer will get the Astros and Cubs into that mix, even if they catch some bad breaks along the way, and they will. So in that respect, I think that they have a better shot, although there are points for the other side, as well.
2. And, I think Hinkie might agree with #1, and I think it is Hinkie, not me, that is holding the 76ers and himself to that higher standard. His actions to this point say, "Screw guys like Jrue Holiday and Dante Exum and Eric Bledsoe and Lance Stephenson and Doug McDermott, and screw having a team like Charlotte or even Dallas. I want a 59-win team anchored by seven-foot tall All-Stars, and I don't care if we have to go 60-180 over three years in order to get a better shot at that."

But, as NJ points out, it is still pretty early in Hinkie's game. And if he gets the last laugh, it will be a hearty one.
   17. cmd600 Posted: August 01, 2014 at 06:38 PM (#4762806)
As a Lakers fan who is still bitter about the Veto and about Gilbert's email thereof, I have complained a lot about Gilbert and will complain about him again. But I think most of us can agree that Gilbert notwithstanding, if any city's sports fans "deserve" a huge series of breaks, it's Cleveland's.


Especially as we have to deal with Gilbert and his nincompoopiness 24/7/365.
   18. smileyy Posted: August 01, 2014 at 06:56 PM (#4762811)

IMO, no. O'Neal and Robinson were consensus #1s and were seen to be franchise players before they left college. They were bigger, stronger, better and more developed than Embiid, even a healthy Embiid, would be/is.


They were also older. Er, ok, Robinson was. Shaq entered college at 17 apparently and was in the draft after his junior season at about the same age as Embiid.
   19. rr Posted: August 01, 2014 at 07:18 PM (#4762823)
Robinson was 21 going on 22 when he was actually drafted, and was a four-year college guy, so that is a reasonable point on one level. He didn't play his first NBA game until he had turned 24, and Embiid may be a monster by the time he is 24. OTOH, Robinson had no health concerns, had a truly amazing body even by NBA standards, was obviously very mature, and was, again, a consensus #1 even though there was going to be a wait. Robinson had the late growth spurt, and obviously was not leaving Annapolis early. But I think that even a healthier Embiid coming out next year would not be nearly as sure a bet as David Robinson was in 1987 or Shaquille O'Neal was in 1992.

Robinson and Shaq are very rare physical specimens; there were the two of them five years apart, but there is no one quite like either of them now. Howard is the probably the closest guy to Robinson that we will see for awhile.
   20. madvillain Posted: August 01, 2014 at 07:21 PM (#4762824)
Team USA scrimmaging at 9 PM EST tonight. Can check it out on ESPN3 (aka watchespn.com)
   21. Zach Posted: August 01, 2014 at 08:07 PM (#4762843)
Let's be fair here. The reason people are excited about Embiid is that he came out of nowhere to be arguably the best center in college basketball last year. He's fast, well coordinated, and is really advanced for the amount of top level competition he's been involved in.

All of those things are *like* Olajuwon, but Embiid is pretty exciting in his own right. There's no need to haul a Hall of Famer into the discussion just to argue that Embiid isn't *guaranteed* to be as good.
   22. rr Posted: August 01, 2014 at 08:28 PM (#4762857)
21--

Here is what I said in Post 16:

The excitement around Embiid comes from the similarities between him and Olajuwon


The problem with Embiid isn't that he isn't guaranteed to be Olajuwon. The problem with Embiid is that he is seriously injured, will be out several months, and some people think that his injury issues may be chronic, as Bowie's and Oden's were, due to their nature, timing etc. So, since Embiid is not a 100% lock-and-load prospect, if you add that to the health issue, he becomes a questionable--but very reasonable--risk.

Tom Cervo made a good point, in that the 76ers have Noel, so if things don't work out for Embiid, they will still have a mobile, long-armed young guy who looks like he can be a defensive anchor. If things do work out, they might have an awesome twin-tower set-up and if nothing else, will have a very valuable guy to trade.

   23. GordonShumway Posted: August 01, 2014 at 08:29 PM (#4762858)
The problem with calling Embiid an Olajuwon-level prospect is that while both were seen to have inner-level HOF potential on draft night, most reasonably informed observers in '84 would have pegged Olajuwon's chances of reaching that ceiling to be significantly higher than Embiid's chances in '14. I think Embiid's closer (though not identical) to being a Sam Bowie '84 level prospect - a guy who's shown great potential on his best days, but with significant questions about whether his health will hold up for him to reach that potential.

Given that Nerlens Noel has missed about 1.5 years with injury - I think Noel's closer to a Bowie '84 level prospect as well.
   24. rr Posted: August 01, 2014 at 09:39 PM (#4762890)
Slo-Mo shots of cheerleaders, Kobe, LeBron, Marc Stein--it's the teaser trailer for the Dirkumentary, Nowitzki:



link
   25. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: August 01, 2014 at 10:35 PM (#4762919)
Paul George just had a terrible thing happen to his leg. I'm not watching, but the Twitterverse is horrified.
   26. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: August 01, 2014 at 10:36 PM (#4762920)
It really looked horrible on the replay. My guess would be broken tibia and fibula. I hate injuries.
   27. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: August 01, 2014 at 10:47 PM (#4762926)
Vine of the injury. I refuse to watch.
   28. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: August 01, 2014 at 10:55 PM (#4762930)
One of my buddies texted me "PG24 :-(" I assumed George was dunked on. Clicked on a link without thinking much of it...awful to watch.
   29. Spivey Posted: August 01, 2014 at 10:59 PM (#4762933)
I watched. Wish him the best. Dunno what the recovery time on that is, but I assume we're talking 3-4 months minimum.
   30. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: August 01, 2014 at 11:49 PM (#4762953)
#29 - depends on if he got lucky or if anything soft got caught up in the mess. It can be career-ending; it can be fairly routine.
   31. rr Posted: August 01, 2014 at 11:49 PM (#4762954)
Terrible, obviously. I plan to avoid actually watching it.
   32. MikeOberly Posted: August 01, 2014 at 11:51 PM (#4762955)
Haven't seen it, thankfully I never watch ESPN outside of games. Hope for the best, this kind of fluke horrible injury is just the worst.
   33. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 02, 2014 at 12:03 AM (#4762956)
I have a hard time believing George's career isn't over. I actually have a hard time believing he will ever walk normally again. (What has happened to the other athletes who have suffered this type of injury?)

To my mind -- and I could simply be wrong about this -- it is because they were scrimmaging in this Team USA thing with a cheap setup. It seems like the base for the basket that he landed on is too close to the court. It is this base that did him in. If you look, he leaps to go for a block (coming from the foul line) and then comes down not on the true floor but sort of down the side of this base, which throws his calculations off and throws his landing off and he can no longer get a footing to support his weight when he lands and his leg just gives way.

The base just seems too close to the floor, but regardless, it's just a dumb setup. I really can't believe it. Because of these idiots, I am now a better basketball player than Paul George.
   34. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 02, 2014 at 12:04 AM (#4762957)
I assume the 3-4 months was a joke.
   35. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: August 02, 2014 at 12:11 AM (#4762959)
I have a hard time believing George's career isn't over. I actually have a hard time believing he will ever walk normally again. (What has happened to the other athletes who have suffered this type of injury?)


Kevin Ware came back, albeit arguably not 100%. It ended Tyrone Prothro's career.
   36. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 02, 2014 at 12:15 AM (#4762963)
I can think of Natrone Means two decades ago, NFL RB. Don't think he ever played again. Same for Theismann.

There was a kick boxer this happened to also. And I think it happened in the last couple of years to an NBA player... you may have just named him above.

Did this happen to Buster Posey?

Then you have the Robin Ventura "foot falls off at the ankle" injury, which seems a better injury to have. Breaking your leg at the shin like this. Egads.

EDIT: Hmm, maybe Means isn't the one I was thinking of. His wiki page makes no mention of the injury. There was a runningback who went into the pile and his leg bent the wrong way... though now that I recall, it bent the wrong way at the knee, which maybe is better.
   37. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: August 02, 2014 at 12:24 AM (#4762966)
Napoleon McCallum. Complete dislocation of the knee; tore arteries, ripped muscles from the bone. Almost lost the leg.
   38. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 02, 2014 at 12:28 AM (#4762969)
Yes, yes, McCallum. Thanks.

(Funny -- had the "NM" correct.)
   39. Squash Posted: August 02, 2014 at 12:42 AM (#4762971)
Bryant Young had a similar injury (49ers) and came back and played for a long time.
   40. Squash Posted: August 02, 2014 at 12:43 AM (#4762972)
BTW I just watched the video and if you're squeamish at all, don't.

To add, he actually might have a chance, though who knows as it's all just visual right now. It looks like a (very bad) bone break but it doesn't look it's a joint a la McCallum. But who knows.
   41. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: August 02, 2014 at 01:36 AM (#4762976)
Literally the only memory I have of Tim Krumrie is his leg flapping about in the Super Bowl, but it turns out he played another six years after that.
   42. Norcan Posted: August 02, 2014 at 02:20 AM (#4762980)
Kevin Ware came back, albeit arguably not 100%. It ended Tyrone Prothro's career.


I don't think Prothro's and George's injuries are similar. Prothro's foot was hanging off his leg. That had to involve bone, ligament and so on. To this day he still walks with a limp, which is just so sad. He was such a dynamic receiver and surefire NFL player. George didn't appear to bust his ankle or knee, which are trickier and more uncertain to recover from. Best case scenario, he just broke a bone. He may never be the same but I'd be surprised if his career is over.

Ware did come back for some Louisville preseason games but then was red-shirted for whatever reason and has now transferred. How he looks physically could be illustrative of George's recovery.
   43. Norcan Posted: August 02, 2014 at 02:22 AM (#4762981)
To my mind -- and I could simply be wrong about this -- it is because they were scrimmaging in this Team USA thing with a cheap setup. It seems like the base for the basket that he landed on is too close to the court. It is this base that did him in.


Apparently the stanchion was around four feet closer than normal, which seems bizarre and dangerous.

Edit: Apparently only 1-2 feet closer but still extremely baffling.
   44. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 02, 2014 at 05:33 PM (#4763129)
Yes, apparently there's a real chance he can come back and play, judging from the fates of other pro athletes, so I spoke too soon on that score. Thanks to all who chimed in with examples.

But I continue to be fascinated by the placement of this base, and why. 1-2 feet closer, Norcan, seems about right to me from my cursory youtube review :-) ESPN's article says that the base was only an inch closer than league regulation of 4 feet.

I'm skeptical.

Quoting:

"The game took place at UNLV's Thomas & Mack Center, and a source said the league is investigating the placement of the basket stanchion there. The league standard is for the stanchion and any photographers to be four feet from the baseline. The stanchion at the arena was 3 feet, 11 inches, a source told ESPN.com's Ramona Shelburne."
   45. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: August 02, 2014 at 06:09 PM (#4763143)
#44, while four feet is the requirement, I read that with the exception of Utah and Sacramento all NBA arenas have them further back, presumably an extra foot or so.
   46. EddieA Posted: August 02, 2014 at 09:06 PM (#4763226)
Utah and Sacramento need to move their's back don't they.
   47. rr Posted: August 03, 2014 at 02:52 AM (#4763301)
In the latest signal that a Kevin Love deal to Cleveland is inevitable, Timberwolves owner Glen Taylor told the St. Paul Pioneer Press that a trade of the All-Star forward is "likely" by Aug. 23 or Aug. 24.

Aug. 23 happens to be the first day Cavaliers rookie Andrew Wiggins is eligible to be traded.

Cleveland signed Wiggins to a four-year deal on July 24, but because of league rules on rookie deals, the Cavs are not able to trade him for at least 30 days.

"I'm saying it's most likely because Kevin has made it pretty clear that that's what he wants to do," Taylor told the Pioneer Press, adding that his preference is to keep Love in Minnesota.


link
   48. MikeOberly Posted: August 03, 2014 at 07:26 AM (#4763318)
I believe that August 23rd is also the first day that McBuckets is eligible to be traded. Not that I think Love is going to Chicago.
   49. steagles Posted: August 04, 2014 at 12:07 AM (#4763660)
joel embiid:
'i wasn't expecting [philadelphia] to be like that. i was surprised and i loved it. i thought it was going to be something like cleveland or milwaukee but it was actually way better.'


he's not going to play for a while, and even then it's unclear whether he's going to be an impact player, but if this basketball thing doesn't work out, he's got a career waiting for him in professional wrestling.
   50. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: August 04, 2014 at 12:04 PM (#4763864)
The Pacers are in an interesting spot, losing Stephenson and probably George for the whole year. They had no draft picks, and it looks like their big acquisition was Rodney Stuckey.

They can hang their hat on defense again and probably be a lower seed in the East, but if I were the GM, I would seriously look at dealing West (for sure) and maybe Hibbert.
   51. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: August 04, 2014 at 06:28 PM (#4764265)
White Mamba is funny.

---

The Pacers are in an interesting spot, losing Stephenson and probably George for the whole year. They had no draft picks, and it looks like their big acquisition was Rodney Stuckey.

They can hang their hat on defense again and probably be a lower seed in the East, but if I were the GM, I would seriously look at dealing West (for sure) and maybe Hibbert.


I don't think the Pacers would go into full tank mode for one year, but if they wanted to deal those guys, now would be the time. Obviously you can't predict this type of fluke injury, but who knew losing Lance would come back to bite them so quickly. They have to hang their hat on defense since their offense was already horrendous, but their perimeter defense takes a huge hit without those guys - they both played a lot of minutes and were plus defenders. There's enough other good-ish teams in the East that the Pacers stand a very good chance of missing the playoffs with the roster they currently have (although who knows what to expect out of Hibbert).

---

I watched the game to see Rose, and usual caveats apply, but he looked like how he did last preseason - as fast and athletic as ever, and really rusty. He had a stretch of 3 straight bad TOs - forced drives/mishandling, including the one that led directly to the breakout where George got hurt. Before George got hurt, I was wondering if something was wrong because he just looked awful - his timing was off, his shot was broke, he looked very out of sync. The injury obviously overshadowed that, but if he was off or something it might have played a role in misjudging his jump/landing (yes, I submitted this wonderful speculation in my application to ESPN).
   52. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: August 04, 2014 at 07:49 PM (#4764342)
Offseason is in midseason, and we don't have a summer project yet. How about starting and running an ABA team?

h/t BDL's link to this story.
   53. villainx Posted: August 04, 2014 at 08:41 PM (#4764364)
50/51, if they got no draft pick, what's the point of tanking?
   54. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: August 04, 2014 at 08:48 PM (#4764368)
They have their picks next year - that was in reference to the last draft (inflows/outflows). (Actually, they're the only club in the league that neither owes nor is owed future picks.)
   55. The District Attorney Posted: August 04, 2014 at 09:38 PM (#4764405)
Windhorst reported as speculating Philly in on the Wiggins/Love deal; Thad Young to Minny, Anthony Bennett to Philly.
   56. villainx Posted: August 04, 2014 at 10:49 PM (#4764444)
54, D'oh!

So ... gotta tank, and hope it'll be new Spurs?
   57. steagles Posted: August 05, 2014 at 12:00 AM (#4764471)
Windhorst reported as speculating Philly in on the Wiggins/Love deal; Thad Young to Minny, Anthony Bennett to Philly.

i like bennett less than i like saric. and i'm not exactly a huge fan of saric.


the problem with bennett at the 4 is that he doesn't give you enough size or rebounding or defense. he should be able to put points on the board, but even then he probably tops out as a moderately efficient volume scorer on a mediocre to slightly above average team.

and unless he's lost 50 lbs, he won't have the athleticism to play the 3. and even he does lose that weight, he's still not a good defender and he doesn't have the ballhandling or playmaking ability to be a standout at the position.


which is to say that unless there's some kind of sweetener coming to philly in addition to bennett, the trade doesn't do much for me.
   58. RollingWave Posted: August 05, 2014 at 01:15 AM (#4764487)
So you mean he's just like Thad Young?
   59. stevegamer Posted: August 05, 2014 at 06:02 AM (#4764500)
Young is athletic enough to play the 3, and seems to be a pretty decent defender. He doesn't have an efficient offensive game in half court, but I think there's a good chance Bennett is never that good.
   60. RollingWave Posted: August 05, 2014 at 08:20 AM (#4764508)
Of course there's a chance, there's a chance any and every prospect isn't that good. If we look at it this way you shouldn't even trade Thad Young for Wiggins, let alone Bennnett. which is of course, absurd.

I think defensively we are making a lot of ridiculous claims though, this isn't baseball where there's a clear obvious metric on how good a guy is on D (and even in baseball it took ages to figure out and still isn't quite as good of an indicator as offense nowadays.) basketball D is in a system and as long as the guy can reasonably defend most guys on any given night (you know, the non star guys.) then he should be fine defensively in the NBA. there aren't really that many folks who literally can't defend anyone physically.

Yes there are some guys who are much better defensively, but the vast majority of guys have roughly comparable defensive potentials. of course, if they could actually figure out said potential is another thing. but you can not judge if a guy is good at on court awareness on D and those stuff via the eye test or tool test in most cases, and things like consistent effort etc is hard to really gauge and may change in the longer term anyway.

At the end of the day a lot of us are making too much out of a small sample size of games in the last couple years on Bennett, we're wrong ALL the time on a lot of guys, that's why you have Paul Millsap being drafted 48th and he's almost certainly the 2nd or 3rd best player in that draft.

The Sixers are likely to trade Thad Young for SOMETHING anyway, and a it's hard to convince me that a late first rounder or something is clearly better than Anthony Bennett.

   61. JJ1986 Posted: August 05, 2014 at 11:15 AM (#4764595)
Bennett draws a ridiculously high salary for a player of his caliber. Even if he's more talented then a mid-late first round pick, he makes four times as much money and will be a free agent at least 2 years earlier. I think the Sixers could definitely get better value for Thad.
   62. The District Attorney Posted: August 05, 2014 at 12:03 PM (#4764655)
   63. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 05, 2014 at 12:19 PM (#4764678)
Bennett draws a ridiculously high salary for a player of his caliber. Even if he's more talented then a mid-late first round pick, he makes four times as much money and will be a free agent at least 2 years earlier. I think the Sixers could definitely get better value for Thad.


Where are they relative to the salary floor? From the Sixers' point of view, I can see the case that spending that money on a flier like Bennett helps you not have to pay a veteran who will take minutes that aren't developing anyone, even if you don't think Bennett has a great chance of panning out. If you aren't trying to win anything next year, it's not a bad way to allocate the resources.
   64. rr Posted: August 05, 2014 at 12:32 PM (#4764695)
"Clippers to work out back up centers this week. Names that will come through: Andray Blatche, Greg Oden, Andrew Bynum and Emeka Okafor."

---ESPN

_____________


I am not a fan of Bennett's game at all, but given what the 76ers are doing, I can see why they would bring him in.
   65. RollingWave Posted: August 05, 2014 at 01:15 PM (#4764744)
Blatche seems like the only one you know of that group who can give you something, which is sad. I would stay away from Bynum if I'm any sane NBA team at any stages at this point.

(Also, Blatche does resemble DeAndre Jordan quite a bit heh)

For Bennett, there is also another thing, if he really suck this bad, then his none guaranteed 7m+ deal going into next year is actually quite useful for money matching propose in a trade, more so than Thad Young anyway.

   66. andrewberg Posted: August 05, 2014 at 01:19 PM (#4764748)
The clippers are going to let those guys scrimmage until only one is still standing, so about 10 minutes.
   67. madvillain Posted: August 05, 2014 at 01:44 PM (#4764767)
I watched the game to see Rose, and usual caveats apply, but he looked like how he did last preseason - as fast and athletic as ever, and really rusty. He had a stretch of 3 straight bad TOs - forced drives/mishandling, including the one that led directly to the breakout where George got hurt. Before George got hurt, I was wondering if something was wrong because he just looked awful - his timing was off, his shot was broke, he looked very out of sync. The injury obviously overshadowed that, but if he was off or something it might have played a role in misjudging his jump/landing (yes, I submitted this wonderful speculation in my application to ESPN).


There was some weird stuff in that scrimmage in general. PG was coming down the floor and launching a contested 18 foot jumper in lieu of real offense. Anthony Davis was shooting from outside as well. Hell, even Fareed tried to get in on the act. At times it looked like an ASG other times it looked very intense. It was certainly more intense than a preseason game IMO.

It's hard being a PG in these settings because you're trying to setup offense that nobody is really that familiar with; I thought that was part of the cause of Derrick's sloppiness. The other part was obviously rust. One thing I thought was different than last preseason is that his handle didn't look sloppy. I thought the errors he made were more just lack of repetition with the team and general familiarity with the offense.
   68. rr Posted: August 05, 2014 at 02:07 PM (#4764797)
@ESPNSteinLine: San Antonio Spurs just announced the hiring of Becky Hammon as an assistant coach
   69. andrewberg Posted: August 05, 2014 at 02:33 PM (#4764842)
Very cool for the Spurs. Any argument for why a woman can't be a successful coach I have heard reeks of misogyny.
   70. Srul Itza Posted: August 05, 2014 at 02:54 PM (#4764880)
Popovich, keeping it fresh.

   71. Srul Itza Posted: August 05, 2014 at 02:59 PM (#4764893)
Sometime next year, kina hora, Pops will win his 1,000th regular season game. He is probably already working on ways to denigrate or ignore the achievement and anyone who tries to bring it up.
   72. puck Posted: August 05, 2014 at 03:03 PM (#4764900)
Interesting set of assistants with the Spurs. There's Messina, and now Hammon, who famously played for the Russian national team, and I assume has lots of international pro experience as most of the WNBA stars seem to have.
   73. steagles Posted: August 05, 2014 at 03:36 PM (#4764956)
For Bennett, there is also another thing, if he really suck this bad, then his none guaranteed 7m+ deal going into next year is actually quite useful for money matching propose in a trade, more so than Thad Young anyway.
it's not non-guaranteed. it's a team option that has to be exercised a year in advance. that money would have to be guaranteed before bennett plays a single minute in a sixers uniform.

The Sixers are likely to trade Thad Young for SOMETHING anyway, and a it's hard to convince me that a late first rounder or something is clearly better than Anthony Bennett.
it's not that hard. a late first rounder will be less expensive against the cap, will be under control for at least two more seasons, and will be a player the sixers pick instead of one that's forced on them because the salaries of traded players have to match.
   74. andrewberg Posted: August 05, 2014 at 05:03 PM (#4765068)
who famously played for the Russian national team, and I assume has lots of international pro experience as most of the WNBA stars seem to have.


Doesn't the Russian Women's basketball league pay a lot more than the WNBA? I seem to recall hearing that the WNBA plays when in does in part to facilitate their players fitting that whole schedule in because few would choose WNBA over it.
   75. bob gee Posted: August 05, 2014 at 05:38 PM (#4765097)
74 - yup, the better women earn a good chunk more overseas than they do here in the states. taurasi (and a couple others) were reported to have made more than 1 million overseas a couple years ago...

   76. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: August 05, 2014 at 06:34 PM (#4765132)
Even as a rental, Young is worth more than a late first rounder - unless you think his uncharacteristically poor efficiency last year says something fundamental about his game at this point in his career, rather than that he played for an awful team.
   77. RollingWave Posted: August 05, 2014 at 08:27 PM (#4765171)
I dunno, the value of picks seem to have sky rocketed in recent years (unless your the Knicks.)

Personally I value Thad Young quite highly, but I have trouble seeing most NBA teams doing the same, especially when you take relative market into account.

   78. rr Posted: August 05, 2014 at 08:41 PM (#4765175)
So, the NBPA has a woman running the union and the NBA champions have a woman as an asst. coach now.
   79. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: August 05, 2014 at 08:51 PM (#4765176)
Philly should continue their efforts to get every young long big and trade Young for Capela. Do Rockets have a trade exception to make it work?
   80. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 05, 2014 at 10:31 PM (#4765214)
@ESPNSteinLine: San Antonio Spurs just announced the hiring of Becky Hammon as an assistant coach


Color me not surprised it was San Antonio that did this. If they were not in Texas and hadn't stomped on my Wolves many years ago they would be my favorite team. They are so smart and well run it almost isn't fair.
   81. GordonShumway Posted: August 05, 2014 at 10:36 PM (#4765218)
What's wrong with Texas?
   82. RollingWave Posted: August 05, 2014 at 10:51 PM (#4765222)
Philly should continue their efforts to get every young long big and trade Young for Capela. Do Rockets have a trade exception to make it work?
I think the Omer Asik exception should work in that regards.

The Rockets seems to be hesistant to take on money beyond next year that isn't a super star, but I really can't imagine that they can't trade Young again after the season if they have to.

   83. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: August 05, 2014 at 11:41 PM (#4765245)
77 - he's a 26 yr old stretch four (in vogue) who consistently posts plus rapm #s and has a good rep in the locker room.
as far as trading young, he has an eto next offseason - that's the limiting factor on his value
   84. RollingWave Posted: August 06, 2014 at 01:26 AM (#4765284)
I said that I personally find Young's value to be high ( for the reasons you cited.) but with how the Market have gone in recent years along with how his contract works it seems unlikely that Philly can land a lot more than a late first with him.

Unconfirmed rumor that Ron Artest will change his name to Panda Friend for the up coming season in China ... normally you find that to be totally unbelievable but since it's Artest it's probably true?
   85. MikeOberly Posted: August 06, 2014 at 02:43 AM (#4765298)
Color me not surprised it was San Antonio that did this. If they were not in Texas and hadn't stomped on my Wolves many years ago they would be my favorite team. They are so smart and well run it almost isn't fair.


I am also completely not surprised at this. I don't think a female coach is an easy thing in the NBA, but if any team can do it seamlessly, it's the Spurs. (and the Spurs are maybe my favorite team, so no Texas hate here :)
   86. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 06, 2014 at 07:39 AM (#4765324)
What's wrong with Texas?


I could go on, but basically I am not a fan. There are plenty of fine things in Texas, but overall it is not my cup of tea.
   87. andrewberg Posted: August 06, 2014 at 11:42 AM (#4765495)
Is there anyone at this point who thinks that there will NOT be a Love-Wiggins trade on 8/23?
   88. MikeOberly Posted: August 06, 2014 at 04:39 PM (#4765824)
I'm not so sure.

(could be 8/24)
   89. GregD Posted: August 06, 2014 at 04:46 PM (#4765838)
Stop the presses!

Knicks trading Jeremy Tyler and Wayne Ellington for Quincy Acy and Travis Outlaw. Will the world ever be the same?
   90. The District Attorney Posted: August 06, 2014 at 05:36 PM (#4765887)
It was a Knick trade, so they also gave up a draft pick. (2016 2nd)
   91. JJ1986 Posted: August 06, 2014 at 05:45 PM (#4765894)
Outlaw will give the Knicks good size at the 2 for when they want to play their Bargnani-Stoudemire-Dalembert frontcourt.
   92. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 06, 2014 at 07:33 PM (#4765966)
Is there anyone at this point who thinks that there will NOT be a Love-Wiggins trade on 8/23?


At this point it is just what the details are, who else, is a third team involved, and so on.
   93. madvillain Posted: August 06, 2014 at 09:11 PM (#4765992)
Young is PF and SF eligible, that ups his trade value right?

Oh wait, this is IRL.
   94. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 07, 2014 at 09:17 AM (#4766160)
Interesting basketball injury article at 538.

If we want to get a better sense of the future of Paul George, the Indiana Pacers star who fractured his right leg while scrimmaging with Team USA last week, we need a more comprehensive way of identifying star players who got hurt. I searched our NBA database for players since 1976-77 to whom the following happened:

First, the player had an All-Star-caliber season. I define this as a player worth at least 7.5 wins above replacement (WAR) as based on statistical plus-minus (see more about that statistic here). There are about 25 players who meet this threshold each year in the NBA, about as many as make one of the league All-Star teams.
Then, the next season, he played in 20 or fewer games for reasons having principally to do with his injury.
   95. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: August 07, 2014 at 09:30 AM (#4766164)
Greg Oden was just charged with hitting his (ex)girlfriend.
   96. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: August 07, 2014 at 09:35 AM (#4766166)
I'm listening to local radio on this, Oden was at a house his mother owns (in Lawrence Township, part of Indy where Oden grew up) and punched the woman in the face around 3:30 am this morning. Says, "I was wrong, and I know what has to happen."
   97. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: August 07, 2014 at 09:54 AM (#4766174)
There are plenty of fine things in Texas, but overall it is not my cup of tea.

Well you're not supposed to drink Texas Tea.
   98. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: August 07, 2014 at 10:07 AM (#4766176)
Interesting basketball injury article at 538.


I presume this is sarcasm. That's some of the worst work I've ever seen published on a reputable site on the internet.

Other than drawing the wrong conclusions from his data and misusing regression analysis, the sample size is too small and the writing is lousy. Nice graphics, I guess.
   99. RollingWave Posted: August 07, 2014 at 11:04 AM (#4766234)
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24651391/report-cavs-have-agreement-to-trade-for-love-long-term-deal

welp that happened a lot faster than we thought...

Love for Wiggins , Bennett , 2015 first (might be Miami's), no 3rd team or other stuff

I'll go on a limb and say that this Cavs season qualifies for one of the best off season of any team ever.
   100. RollingWave Posted: August 07, 2014 at 11:07 AM (#4766235)
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