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Wednesday, October 11, 2017

OT - NBA 2017-2018 Tip-off Thread

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, some of whom still care about baseball playoffs, but all of whom agree the Celtics gave up too much for Irving.

Here’s the thread’s top 50 players ranking.

Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 11, 2017 at 11:21 AM | 1895 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   1801. jmurph Posted: December 06, 2017 at 02:42 PM (#5587507)
Is it just me who still thinks starting Taj and playing Dieng 16 minutes a game off the bench, rather than the other way around, was and is a mistake?

I was down on the Gibson signing but he's been really good. I guess the question remains as to whether he'll hold up under the workload.
   1802. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: December 06, 2017 at 02:44 PM (#5587510)
Is it just me who still thinks starting Taj and playing Dieng 16 minutes a game off the bench, rather than the other way around, was and is a mistake?

I don't think it really matters who starts. But having Taj play 38.2 minutes a game over this past stretch of 8 games in 13 days, while a younger Taj clone plays no more than 20 minutes a game, seems shortsighted.
   1803. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 06, 2017 at 03:42 PM (#5587558)
Related, Taj is currently 3rd in the NBA in on/off NetRtg this year.

What an interesting list.
   1804. jmurph Posted: December 06, 2017 at 03:51 PM (#5587566)
When you dig into the numbers, what is really concerning about the Wolves is that the offense, which is carrying them, is almost certainly going to decline. They're currently 5th in ORTG despite a glacial pace, mediocre to poor ball movement (which becomes awful late in games), being among the leaders in long 2s, etc.

Speaking of Minnesota's offense:
Wolves are 29th in %FGA coming at rim & from 3
   1805. jmurph Posted: December 06, 2017 at 03:52 PM (#5587569)
From that same source:
Melo/Russ/PG13 have used more isos than 28 of 29 non-OKC teams
   1806. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: December 06, 2017 at 04:01 PM (#5587584)
this is fine.

Derek Bodner @DerekBodnerNBA
Brett Brown says Fultz didn't do much in practice today, and that he's barely even thought of how he will distribute ballhandling responsibilities when Fultz does eventually return.

Derek Bodner @DerekBodnerNBA
On October 29th, the #sixers said there was no structural damage in Fultz's shoulder and he needed some PT. We're 6 weeks later, he still isn't practicing, and no real update has been given as to why.
   1807. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 06, 2017 at 04:08 PM (#5587593)
Celtics beat writer Jay King wrote the other day about having the same shoulder injury in college. If he's right, it'll be interesting to see how Fultz comes back. If he's back and good all of a sudden, that will be fascinating. That does seem more likely to me than anything else, purely because if it's not this, WTF is going on?
   1808. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: December 06, 2017 at 05:41 PM (#5587667)
What an interesting list.


Yep; seems to be pretty effectively selecting for the best players from the teams with the worst depth, which is an interesting set of players.
   1809. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: December 06, 2017 at 09:20 PM (#5587771)
LeBron James is shooting 43.0 percent from 3 so far this year. Steph Curry's career 3P% is 43.5.

How are you supposed to guard him when he's shooting like that?
   1810. maccoach57 Posted: December 06, 2017 at 10:35 PM (#5587797)
I think judging that deal will be a lot easier than this. If Tatum is roughly as good as Fultz and Ball (I guess throw Jackson and Fox in, too), it will be a clear, overwhelming win for Boston given that they also picked up another lottery pick in the process.


Not quite, because Ainge could have made another deal and a lot of the Boston fans here were talking about Ainge as a 12-dimensional chess player who was playing the long game to build a powerhouse. I get that Boston fans are jacked and talky; if I were a Boston fan, I would be too. People here, including me, gave Ainge some crap, and your team is 21-4 even though Hayward suffered a catastrophic injury in the first five minutes of the season. But as Lowe once said in another context, every deal affects every other deal, and there is a long way to go. One way to look at Boston: how many teams have won an NBA title with their best player not being better than either Kyrie Irving or Gordon Hayward?

But, OTOH, maybe Ainge knew stuff Irving and Tatum that most people missed, so we will see.
   1811. maccoach57 Posted: December 06, 2017 at 10:38 PM (#5587800)
As to the Davis question someone asked: Tatum and a lottery pick would be the starting point if Davis wants out of New Orleans, with probably Horford in as salary ballast and then going to another team. It also depends on Hayward's recovery, but Davis/Irving/Hayward would obviously be a very nice if fragile core.
   1812. stevegamer Posted: December 07, 2017 at 02:10 AM (#5587830)
Generally this is seen as a "He plays starters too much, they are tired and injury prone", but if you want to suggest that "he doesn't play reserves enough to keep sharp and in the flow of the game" I guess I can go with that. I just am not sure though what the problem is.


The problem is Thibodeau. He'd be really great as a head coach in era when teams barely used their bench or if he has a practically perfect roster for him that's young, and defensively capable. He's another data point as to why you don't give head coaches roster control. At least he doesn't have a kid who was a highly touted prospect.

   1813. stevegamer Posted: December 07, 2017 at 02:17 AM (#5587831)
I think judging that deal will be a lot easier than this. If Tatum is roughly as good as Fultz and Ball (I guess throw Jackson and Fox in, too), it will be a clear, overwhelming win for Boston given that they also picked up another lottery pick in the process.


Not quite, because Ainge could have made another deal and a lot of the Boston fans here were talking about Ainge as a 12-dimensional chess player who was playing the long game to build a powerhouse. I get that Boston fans are jacked and talky; if I were a Boston fan, I would be too. People here, including me, gave Ainge some crap, and your team is 21-4 even though Hayward suffered a catastrophic injury in the first five minutes of the season. But as Lowe once said in another context, every deal affects every other deal, and there is a long way to go.


While the bolded is true that deals have an effect on each other. If you hold it to that standard, you can't ever judge any deal, because the string of future deals keeps playing out, short of a franchise being contracted and ceasing to exist. That ignores hypothetical deals, which means we could never judge anything.

This deal will be very, very easy to judge when the time comes, and it wont rely on much that Tatum vs Fultz.

Tatum >= Fultz means the Celtics win the deal. They got the better player, plus a pick. Even if said pick turns out to be a bust.
Fultz >> the combination of Tatum and a play the Celtics draft & play with that pick means the 76ers win the deal.

What can get murky is the pick moving on again, or where it's unclear how much better Fultz is that the player(s) the Celtics end up with.
   1814. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:10 AM (#5587866)
I wouldn't trade Tatum for Anthony Davis straight up. I am all the way out on Anthony Davis.
   1815. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:20 AM (#5587869)
LeBron James is shooting 43.0 percent from 3 so far this year. Steph Curry's career 3P% is 43.5.

How are you supposed to guard him when he's shooting like that?


By explaining 3 point variance to him as you run down the court on offense?

If he's making shots at a high rate, you're pretty ######. I still believe you have to give him those, and play off him a bit. Keep him out of the lane to keep assists down and foul the crap out of him if he's going to the basket.
   1816. stanmvp48 Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:42 AM (#5587877)
The Warriors are on pace to win their division by 35 games
   1817. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:49 AM (#5587880)
I don't think it was discussed much here, but while I thought the no-call on LeBron's drive where he was ejected a little while back was defensible...man, is his FT rate low for a guy who lives in the paint as much as he does. I can understand why he would feel slighted.
   1818. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:13 AM (#5587891)
Back to the Wolves, I think last night's game illustrated everything we've been talking about:

All 5 starters scored more than 15 points and had a positive plus-minus. That's good. All 5 starters played more than 35 minutes. That's bad. At least they finally get a chance to rest now with the schedule. Hopefully Thibs doesn't take this opportunity to run them ragged in practice.

Also, here are last night's starters sorted by rebounds + assists + steals + blocks:
Towns: 22
Gibson: 19
Butler: 16
Teague: 11
Wiggins: 4

How can Wiggins be so inconsequential apart from scoring? I agree that there's a strong chance his contract quickly becomes recognized as one of the worst in the league. He appears destined for DeMar DeRozan's career, scoring a lot of points at reasonable efficiency, not contributing a whole lot otherwise, and being very overpaid. At least the Raptors didn't have to pay DeRozan a ton until year 8. The Wolves are on the hook for a max salary 3 years earlier, seemingly because Wiggins has that #1 pick pedigree.
   1819. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:52 AM (#5587909)
One way to look at Boston: how many teams have won an NBA title with their best player not being better than either Kyrie Irving or Gordon Hayward?


Well, wasn't that the crux of the big debate we had back then? Some saw Irving as a top-15 talent with top-6 or 7 potential, others disagreed.
   1820. maccoach57 Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:00 AM (#5587916)
While the bolded is true that deals have an effect on each other. If you hold it to that standard, you can't ever judge any deal, because the string of future deals keeps playing out, short of a franchise being contracted and ceasing to exist. That ignores hypothetical deals, which means we could never judge anything.


Nope. I was simply saying that is way too early to judge this, in part because Boston's situation is different than most other franchises:

1. Ainge's moves have been openly contextualized in terms of his possibly being able to build a dominant champion from an historically unusual position of asset strength. Lowe, for example, called Boston "the envy of the league" last year at a time when Golden State has put together one of the best teams in the history of the game.
2. Trading the #1 pick in the draft is pretty unusual, and trading it down for two other picks has only happened a couple of times I think. Basketball isn't football, obviously.

At the moment, of course, Ainge looks like he was well ahead of the curve. Many observers, including Pelton IIRC, suggested that Ball and Fultz were clearly above the other guys in the draft; I read more than one piece calling it a "two-man draft." Ainge obviously didn't think so, and right now he appears to have been correct.

Irving is in my experience less divisive among casual fans than he is among wonky fans, but there was certainly doubt about that deal, and Ainge is winning that one right now, too. But the real question is whether what Ainge has done has moved Boston closer to being a champion
--because that is the game board we have been told he is playing on. And I think that is an open question.
   1821. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:17 AM (#5587931)
i stumbled onto this article through the google:
The first overall pick in the 2017 NBA Draft took to his Snapchat account to post a picture of him tipping the scales at 210 pounds.

For some context, the University of Washington listed him at 195 pounds on his player page, meaning the 19-year-old has tacked on at least 15 pounds over the past several months.

it's up for debate as to whether or not Fultz's decision to bulk up will actually be of benefit to him
   1822. Booey Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:22 AM (#5587933)
Well, wasn't that the crux of the big debate we had back then? Some saw Irving as a top-15 talent with top-6 or 7 potential, others disagreed.


Even top 15 isn't generally good enough. In modern NBA history (1980-present), every champion had an MVP winner on their roster except for the Pistons (all 3 of their title teams). If you want to add an "in their prime" qualifier, the list only expands to include the 2014 Spurs, since Duncan was no longer an MVP candidate (and Kawhi was yet to become one). So that's just 4 out of 38 teams that's been able to win a title without a guy in the conversation for "best player in the league."
   1823. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:30 AM (#5587938)
At the moment, of course, Ainge looks like he was well ahead of the curve. Many observers, including Pelton IIRC, suggested that Ball and Fultz were clearly above the other guys in the draft; I read more than one piece calling it a "two-man draft." Ainge obviously didn't think so, and right now he appears to have been correct.

i had 4 guys about equal (ball, fultz, jackson, fox), a fifth (isaac) who i would have taken as a pure upside lottery ticket, and i said this about tatum pre-draft [3774]:
i don't love tatum, but if he gets into the weight room and adds some strength and explosiveness, he could be a significantly better NBA player than he was in college, with legit 2 way upside.

   1824. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:51 AM (#5587954)
I think the Bulls are pretty safely the worst team in the league right now. Last night was one of those clutch losses stiggles used to love so much. Bulls were up almost 20, but the Pacers closed the game on a 19-2 run or something with Oladiop hitting a go ahead pull up 3(!) with 30 seconds left. The Bulls got some clutch turnovers late from Dunn and Valentine, both of whom are surprisingly terrible ballhandlers.

Speaking of Dunn, somehow he's now shooting 44.4% on 2.4 3pts/game. He's making a lot of young player/rookies mistakes, the kind you really wouldn't want to see from an older 2nd year player. Markkanenen's shooting has come crashing back down to earth, which is to be expected.

That's more than I'd like to talk about the Bulls, so I'll stop.
   1825. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: December 07, 2017 at 12:05 PM (#5587967)


Even top 15 isn't generally good enough. In modern NBA history (1980-present), every champion had an MVP winner on their roster except for the Pistons (all 3 of their title teams). If you want to add an "in their prime" qualifier, the list only expands to include the 2014 Spurs, since Duncan was no longer an MVP candidate (and Kawhi was yet to become one). So that's just 4 out of 38 teams that's been able to win a title without a guy in the conversation for "best player in the league."


Dirk wasn't in this conversation anymore when Dallas won theirs. I'd have to do some digging to check others.
   1826. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 12:25 PM (#5587984)

Even top 15 isn't generally good enough.


Right, which is why "potential for top 6-7" is in there. Irving is #7 in Win Shares so far this season.
   1827. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 07, 2017 at 12:30 PM (#5587989)
The Bulls got some clutch turnovers late from Dunn and Valentine, both of whom are surprisingly terrible ballhandlers.

Speaking of Dunn, somehow he's now shooting 44.4% on 2.4 3pts/game. He's making a lot of young player/rookies mistakes, the kind you really wouldn't want to see from an older 2nd year player.


Dunn has some obvious upsides and some serious flaws. Sadly ball handling was one of those flaws. He still seems to me like a less good Ricky Rubio, which is why I was always amazed when people said Thibs loved Dunn and disliked Rubio. Maybe demeanor or something.
   1828. Booey Posted: December 07, 2017 at 12:58 PM (#5588010)
Dirk wasn't in this conversation anymore when Dallas won theirs. I'd have to do some digging to check others.


He finished 6th in MVP voting, so he wasn't too far off. Maybe that's not in the "best player in the league" conversation, but he still counts as an MVP caliber player in his prime.

Edit: So we could probably take off the last line of my post #1822 and just leave it at "MVP winners (or MVP candidates) in their prime." Overall point stands, though, I think.
   1829. MHS Posted: December 07, 2017 at 01:29 PM (#5588055)
But the real question is whether what Ainge has done has moved Boston closer to being a champion


I think that is absolutely right - that's the correct yards stick.

I obviously have my green colored glasses on but 22 and 4 is closer to a champion. I highly doubt they win 68 games, but I highly doubted they would win 22 of 24 since Gordon went down.

And I still don't love the Kyrie trade, but I feel much better about it now that we know Thomas was going to miss a lot of the season. We didn't know that at the time.

I no longer hate, them trading with Philly - but I still contend they could have gotten more. I also no longer hate them taking Tatum...

I think we can all see my track record here.
   1830. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 07, 2017 at 01:42 PM (#5588073)
If Ainge really suspected Crowder was declining and/or a product of Stevens, the trade makes a lot more sense too.
   1831. aberg Posted: December 07, 2017 at 02:12 PM (#5588114)
I went to the Clippers-Wolves game last night. I was lucky to be in town to see the Wolves play live. I don't think I learned anything drastic that I hadn't seen on TV. Butler really is an excellent utility knife and he served different purposes throughout the game- defensive stopper, offensive initiator, off-ball scorer, closer. Towns had a pretty quiet 21 on 14 shots and it was nice to see him playing more assertively on offense after some poor games. He worked hard on defense and got 4 blocks, though he was stuck in between rotations and out of position on several defensive possessions, and also let DJ get whatever position he wanted for offensive rebounds and alley-oops. Gallo, still presumably working himself back into full game shape, was virtually non-existent. It would have been nice for the Wolves to pull away and end it earlier, but Lou Williams made some really nice, tough shots.
   1832. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 07, 2017 at 02:13 PM (#5588116)
Marc Stein‏ @TheSteinLine 2m2 minutes ago

In a story posting now on @NYTSports, league sources say that a @nbagleague franchise in Mexico City will be established as quickly as feasible and could possibly begin play as early as next season


Cool.
   1833. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: December 07, 2017 at 02:16 PM (#5588118)
Cool.
the franchise will be named the supersonicos.
   1834. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 07, 2017 at 02:17 PM (#5588119)
Cool indeed. Here's hoping they institute a hyperspeed run-and-gun offense to get Denver's home court advantage but moreso.
   1835. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: December 07, 2017 at 02:43 PM (#5588150)
Dunn seems to be a guy who is really good except he makes mistakes. It's not your usual situation of a great college point guard who shows up in the pros and is comparatively too short and slow to accomplish anything, like Mateen Cleaves or Shabazz Napier or something. This is worrisome for a guy who was old for a rookie, but I like him for some reason.
   1836. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: December 07, 2017 at 03:08 PM (#5588193)
Dunn seems like a guy that is going to need to be near first-team all defense to be more than a backup to me. I'm highly skeptical on his 3pt% given his free throw percentage is so poor and it's such a small sample size. In fact, his TS% is below 50% this year despite his good 3 point percentage because he shoots 2 and FTs at such a poor rate.

I was high on him coming out of college because he fills the stat sheet pretty well and I like his athleticism, but his offensive game seems way worse than I imagined.
   1837. TFTIO sings Medieval Agrarian History Posted: December 07, 2017 at 03:12 PM (#5588197)
Dunn was hopeless last year. I don't miss him.
   1838. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 07, 2017 at 03:24 PM (#5588224)
I basically agree with 1835, 1836, and 1837.

I still wish him and Zach well.
   1839. The Good Face Posted: December 07, 2017 at 04:00 PM (#5588258)
Dunn seems to be a guy who is really good except he makes mistakes. It's not your usual situation of a great college point guard who shows up in the pros and is comparatively too short and slow to accomplish anything, like Mateen Cleaves or Shabazz Napier or something. This is worrisome for a guy who was old for a rookie, but I like him for some reason.


This pretty much nails Dunn. He's got the measurables and is a good athlete, but he just makes too many mistakes/boneheaded plays. He was like that at Providence too, but his superior athleticism bailed him out of a lot of jams. Less room for error in the NBA. The worrisome thing is he's almost 24; not just a kid who needs a couple years to "learn how to play". Could just be a vision/court sense thing with him.
   1840. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: December 07, 2017 at 04:23 PM (#5588274)
the nets are a very well run organization.
   1841. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 07, 2017 at 04:28 PM (#5588280)
Zach Lowe‏@ZachLowe_NBA 14m14 minutes ago

Philly will send Okafor, Nik Stauskas, and a second-round pick to Brooklyn for Trevor Booker, sources say.


That's basically getting him for free, no?
   1842. aberg Posted: December 07, 2017 at 04:30 PM (#5588283)
Zach Lowe‏@ZachLowe_NBA 14m14 minutes ago

Philly will send Okafor, Nik Stauskas, and a second-round pick to Brooklyn for Trevor Booker, sources say.


That's basically getting him for free, no?


Sure, but Booker isn't young any more. I'm not sure they'd get more from anyone else.
   1843. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: December 07, 2017 at 04:40 PM (#5588292)
Initial reaction is that I like that deal for both sides.
   1844. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 07, 2017 at 04:43 PM (#5588298)
NJ, agreed. Booker helps the Sixers this year. Okafor is exactly the type of player the Nets should give a shot, like they did with Russell.
   1845. smileyy Posted: December 07, 2017 at 04:53 PM (#5588307)
but (Dunn) just makes too many mistakes/boneheaded plays


IIRC, that was the pre-draft downside for Dunn.
   1846. The Good Face Posted: December 07, 2017 at 05:01 PM (#5588311)
but (Dunn) just makes too many mistakes/boneheaded plays

IIRC, that was the pre-draft downside for Dunn.


There's probably a reason the Spurs put such a premium on guys that, "know how to play".
   1847. Der-K: downgraded to lurker Posted: December 07, 2017 at 05:12 PM (#5588314)
I like it for Philly for sure. I like it for Cleveland. I have mixed feelings for Brooklyn.
   1848. JJ1986 Posted: December 07, 2017 at 05:16 PM (#5588316)
I think Booker is a pretty good backup center whom the Nets played at PF too much. He's bouncy, has nice touch finishing around slower players and is even willing to shoot the 3 quickly (although he's not very good at it).
   1849. aberg Posted: December 07, 2017 at 06:01 PM (#5588346)
I think Booker is a pretty good backup center whom the Nets played at PF too much. He's bouncy, has nice touch finishing around slower players and is even willing to shoot the 3 quickly (although he's not very good at it).


I get that there should be depth behind Embiid, but where does he fit relative to Holmes and Amir?
   1850. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: December 07, 2017 at 06:13 PM (#5588354)
Amir Johnson is really bad and shouldn't play if he doesn't absolutely have to.
   1851. JC in DC Posted: December 07, 2017 at 06:36 PM (#5588363)
C'mon, this is a great deal for the nets. They take another cheap flyer on a top pick and give up next to nothing. Philly ground down Okafor's value to next to nothing and the Nets pounced. Philly can't get credit for turning the #3 pick into Trevor Booker.
   1852. smileyy Posted: December 07, 2017 at 07:32 PM (#5588384)
Having to shed the chaff of Noel and Okafor in order to get the wheat of Simmons and Embiid isn't too bad. #trusttheprocess
   1853. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: December 07, 2017 at 08:22 PM (#5588409)
Amir Johnson is really bad and shouldn't play if he doesn't absolutely have to.
his defense has actually been really good for the last month.
I get that there should be depth behind Embiid, but where does he fit relative to Holmes and Amir?
my guess is he's here to play PF, not C. saric hasn't taken a step forward this season, and booker gives the sixers an alternative who's more physical.
Having to shed the chaff of Noel and Okafor in order to get the wheat of Simmons and Embiid isn't too bad. #trusttheprocess
that's literally what hinkie said while he was here. you're not gonna hit on every pick, so the best plan is to stockpile as many as you can.
Philly ground down Okafor's value to next to nothing

i'm not sure there were ever any good options. 2 months into his rookie season, people around here said he was the worst defender in the history of the NBA. his rookie season ended early, due to a knee injury that didn't heal until after his second season.

Booker helps the Sixers this year
i would not be shocked if the sixers package him with jerryd bayless to get someone like george hill or harrison barnes.

i would also not be shocked if they trade him for nikola mirotic.
   1854. JJ1986 Posted: December 07, 2017 at 08:24 PM (#5588411)
i would not be shocked if the sixers package him with jerryd bayless to get someone like george hill or harrison barnes.
And give up on the dream of adding LeBron?
   1855. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: December 07, 2017 at 08:35 PM (#5588420)
And give up on the dream of adding LeBron?
sign and trade is still a possibility.
   1856. JC in DC Posted: December 07, 2017 at 09:58 PM (#5588481)
For much of tonight's game, the Sixers have missed Okafor's bench presence.
   1857. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:38 PM (#5588512)
Was there ever a STIGGLES Okafor for (Devin) Booker proposal?
   1858. stevegamer Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:43 PM (#5588514)
Having to shed the chaff of Noel and Okafor in order to get the wheat of Simmons and Embiid isn't too bad. #trusttheprocess


You won't get me to believe that Noel is chaff. He was too good on the 76ers to be completely useless in the NBA. Yes, there was a fit problem with too many bigs on the rroster, and we all know whose fault that it is. However, until it became a 3 man logjam, Noel was very useful. Clearly, the issue was trying to fit Okafor in as well, and that is simply the fault of a guy who doesn't understand positional issues.
   1859. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:43 PM (#5588515)
I tuned into Rockets-Jazz, where the Jazz are wearing yellow and the Rockets are wearing black. I instinctively thought it was a Lakers-Heat game...
   1860. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: December 07, 2017 at 10:58 PM (#5588520)
didn't win. didn't deserve to win.


the sixers could have 5 extra wins if they had lou williams instead of jerryd bayless. this team is dying for a PG who can score off the dribble and do anything productive coming off the bench.
   1861. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:09 PM (#5588524)
Clearly, the issue was trying to fit Okafor in as well, and that is simply the fault of a guy who doesn't understand positional issues.
they picked okafor because embiid had just reinjured his foot and noone knew if he'd still have two legs, let alone be healthy enough to play basketball, let alone be good, let alone this good. also, porzingis's camp iced hinkie out pre-draft, so the sixers would have had to take him without access to all relevant information.

other than porzingis, the sixers' options were hezonja (who's terrible), mudiay (who's terrible) and winslow (who's terrible).


it's also worth pointing out that hinkie may not have had ownership's backing at that point. the NBA installed colangelo 6 months later, and colangelo's large adult son pushed hinkie out 2 months after that. i don't know that hinkie wanted to take porzingis (he passed on giannis two years earlier, and he wasn't big on drafting international players, in general), but i'm not sure he still had the clout to pick porzingis even if he wanted to.
   1862. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:13 PM (#5588528)
other than porzingis, the sixers' options were hezonja (who's terrible), mudiay (who's terrible) and winslow (who's terrible).


Don't forget Kaminsky!
   1863. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: December 07, 2017 at 11:55 PM (#5588540)
trade machine: who says no?

CHO: markelle fultz, jerryd bayless
PHI: kemba walker, dwayne bacon
   1864. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: December 08, 2017 at 12:33 AM (#5588549)
other than porzingis, the sixers' options were hezonja (who's terrible), mudiay (who's terrible) and winslow (who's terrible).


Or trade the pick for a future pick. This would also mean you have a year of a good player when you're a good team and trying to win and have your players play well, instead of when you're a bad team and trying to lose and prevent your players from playing well.
   1865. Sean Forman Posted: December 08, 2017 at 12:40 AM (#5588551)

the sixers could have 5 extra wins if they had lou williams instead of jerryd bayless. this team is dying for a PG who can score off the dribble and do anything productive coming off the bench.


well they drafted one of those in theory. Bayless is driving me nuts. Not excited for what they'll have to package to dump bayless this summer.
   1866. stevegamer Posted: December 08, 2017 at 12:40 AM (#5588552)
the sixers could have 5 extra wins if they had lou williams instead of jerryd bayless. this team is dying for a PG who can score off the dribble and do anything productive coming off the bench.


They have a good backup PG, McConnell. He's not a score off the dribble guy, but he's fine. Honestly, I'd prefer to see him get more time with the first unit.

I wasn't thrilled with the Bayless signing, he's a mediocre shooting guard that can handle enough to make you think he's a viable backup. In other words, Nik Stauskas with a better handle and a slightly better shot.
   1867. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: December 08, 2017 at 12:45 AM (#5588554)
They would probably have 1 extra win, against the Suns, if McConnell wasn't injured. That game was an atrocious team effort.
   1868. jmurph Posted: December 08, 2017 at 09:31 AM (#5588639)
I don't know if you Sixers fans agree, but I continue to not understand featuring Redick like he's some kind of first option on offense. He's also up to a career high in MPG, which is silly. As far as I'm concerned they completely whiffed on the Amir*/Redick signings this summer. Granted, it's possible they didn't realize they were going to be as competitive as they are?

*He is who he is, which is a fine defensive backup center, I'm just saying it wasn't a great use of the money. It's not like he's Embiid insurance- he definitely can't go 30 minutes a night anymore in that scenario.
   1869. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: December 08, 2017 at 09:44 AM (#5588650)
didn't win. didn't deserve to win.


the sixers could have 5 extra wins if they had lou williams instead of jerryd bayless. this team is dying for a PG who can score off the dribble and do anything productive coming off the bench.


Yeah, Bayless is awful.

The Sixers played very young and immature in that game. A lot of possessions were given away on both sides.
   1870. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: December 08, 2017 at 10:34 AM (#5588687)
They have a good backup PG, McConnell. He's not a score off the dribble guy, but he's fine. Honestly, I'd prefer to see him get more time with the first unit.
mcconnell is solid, but they need scoring.
I continue to not understand featuring Redick like he's some kind of first option on offense
he makes shots, he doesn't turn the ball over and there are no better options.
The Sixers played very young and immature in that game. A lot of possessions were given away on both sides.
brett brown coaches the team to play faster when games get sloppy. that was understandable when the sixers were outmatched during the process, but they're playing teams they should beat now. they need to slow down so they can execute better on both ends.
well they drafted one of those in theory
i didn't expect anything productive from fultz this year, even before whatever the hell this injury is.

but yeah, if fultz is what he could be, he's exactly what the sixers need. it's why large adult son gave up a future #1 pick to get him.
Or trade the pick for a future pick. This would also mean you have a year of a good player when you're a good team and trying to win and have your players play well, instead of when you're a bad team and trying to lose and prevent your players from playing well.
i'm not sure that was an option for hinkie at that point.
   1871. Der-K: downgraded to lurker Posted: December 08, 2017 at 11:03 AM (#5588723)
Okafor is a player that, at best, looks more productive than he is. So, if he performs for Brooklyn - they have the ability to sign him (he's an impending FA, no longer with team options) for too much money.
   1872. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: December 08, 2017 at 11:41 AM (#5588746)
Okafor is a player that, at best, looks more productive than he is. So, if he performs for Brooklyn - they have the ability to sign him (he's an impending FA, no longer with team options) for too much money.
okafor's salary for next season is capped at the same number as his (declined) team option.

   1873. jmurph Posted: December 08, 2017 at 11:41 AM (#5588748)
Okafor is a player that, at best, looks more productive than he is. So, if he performs for Brooklyn - they have the ability to sign him (he's an impending FA, no longer with team options) for too much money.

I'm as down on his abilities as anyone, but this seems too harsh. Brooklyn seems to strongly believe in their staff's ability to get the most out of players. They had no use for Booker, who isn't particularly good anyway, and they have now added another young player who was thought to have a lot of potential not too long ago. I mean I don't think he'll be any good, either, but there's no risk and they'll be able to afford him if he all of a sudden turns into something real.

Put it this way: getting a 2nd (likely a mid rounder, at worst) for Booker is actually fairly decent, in my mind.
   1874. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: December 08, 2017 at 11:58 AM (#5588766)
here's another reason for any fence-sitters to jump on the sixers bandwagon: national writers trying to edit brett brown's quotes so they appear to be parsable in print. it's good stuff:

Brett Brown says rarely do you find a trade that works out for both teams with the Jahlil Okafor trade. "I feel with what we are getting back (is) a man, who has done this and that and (brings) a level of toughness... it reminds me very much of Amir (Johnson)," Brown said. "I'm excited for (Okafor and Nik Stauskas) to play (in Brooklyn)."
   1875. JC in DC Posted: December 08, 2017 at 12:18 PM (#5588787)
Agree with everything about 1873.
   1876. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: December 08, 2017 at 04:08 PM (#5589004)
I continue to not understand featuring Redick like he's some kind of first option on offense


Redick is a .414 career shooter from 3, maybe we give him some age decline and say he's 40% now. 1.2 PPP plus whatever you get from offensive rebounds is a damn good halfcourt offense.

Atlanta won 62 games a few years back with a big part of their offense being Korver running off screens and lots of things that played off of the threat of Korver running off screens. This kind of off-ball-screen based offense also results in minimal turnovers.

Now, if Philly is having him initiate the offense, that isn't great -- I haven't seen these recent games you've made these comments after, but I haven't seen that in the games I've watched. You can do a lot worse on offense than an offense designed to get J.J. Redick threes.
   1877. jmurph Posted: December 08, 2017 at 04:32 PM (#5589022)
All fine points Athletic Supporter. I'll also add a caveat that I seem to be catching Philly on their worst nights because they've looked bad nearly every time I've seen them, and the overall season results show they're clearly not a bad team. Skimming some Redick numbers to see if I'm crazy, and I don't think I am:

- Currently averaging career high in FGA per game
- Lowest % ast on 3s in 8 years
- Lowest % ast on 2s in 5 years

And the results aren't there so far- lowest TS% and PER in years, and the 3pt FG% is down.

Now granted, a lot of those are slight changes, it may all even out in time and just be early season noise. But my sense is that while he was frequently the 3rd option with the Clippers, I'm seeing long stretches of time with the Sixers where they seem to be expecting him to carry the scoring load. Career highs in MPG and career highs in FGA per game in his age 33 season has just struck me as odd.
   1878. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 08, 2017 at 05:46 PM (#5589062)
It's not a perfect way to compare, but that season Korver had a 14.4USG% and this year Reddick's at 19.4; Korver also had a .699TS% (and 49.2% on 3s) and Reddick is only at a .567TS%. Now, those Hawks were also just a much better team.
   1879. tshipman Posted: December 08, 2017 at 08:31 PM (#5589112)
Reddick is also dealing with the absence of Chris Paul.

On the Clippers, 95% of his 3pers were assisted. This year, just 85% are.
   1880. jmurph Posted: December 08, 2017 at 09:15 PM (#5589126)
I've never been a fan of his, but I think it's really cool that Andre Drummond has improved his free throw shooting this year. Between that and somehow getting 4 assists a game, he's now a pretty damn valuable player. I hope he can maintain it.
   1881. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: December 08, 2017 at 11:56 PM (#5589148)
Ginobili is disgusting. So ####### athletic.
   1882. PJ Martinez Posted: December 09, 2017 at 01:20 PM (#5589296)
"Sixers issue a Markelle Fultz update. He's pain-free, but is still 3 weeks away ... from another evaluation."
   1883. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: December 09, 2017 at 09:01 PM (#5589439)
the cavs are setting screens every possession to get lebron isolated v. redick, and the sixers are letting it happen, time after time after time. they're carving the sixers D to shreds. bayless is doing better, but not much.

the sixers are not a smart basketball team.
   1884. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: December 10, 2017 at 12:09 PM (#5589541)
Derek Bodner @DerekBodnerNBA
Last 2 games against the Cavs:
- #sixers winning 149-147 with LeBron in the game.
- Sixers losing 40-71 with LeBron on the bench.
   1885. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: December 10, 2017 at 01:15 PM (#5589564)
How close are the Rockets to be as good as the Warriors?
   1886. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: December 10, 2017 at 01:31 PM (#5589567)
Just to add to 1885, in the 10 games that Paul has played with Harden, the Rockets have outscored their opponents by 16.9 per game.
   1887. tshipman Posted: December 10, 2017 at 01:49 PM (#5589570)
How close are the Rockets to be as good as the Warriors?


It's difficult to tell for sure right now.

Two confounding factors:
1. The Warriors aren't trying as hard to win games. Kerr is experimenting with rotations and schemes.
2. Playoff defenses are different, and the Rockets are far out on the "gimmick offense" spectrum, with so many of their shots coming from 3.

Some guys on the Rockets are also shooting over their heads, so we'll see if that comes back a bit.
   1888. Booey Posted: December 10, 2017 at 02:41 PM (#5589588)
How close are the Rockets to be as good as the Warriors?


I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the Rockets beat the Warriors for the #1 seed, but I'd still be pretty surprised if they beat them in the playoffs. Seems that most all time great teams on an epic run eventually get to the point where they coast a bit during the regular season (1993 Bulls, 2001 Lakers, several LeBron teams).

There's really no reason for the Warriors to put much emphasis on the regular season. The Rockets OTOH, will need all the help they can get, so getting HC should be seen as a priority.
   1889. Manny Coon Posted: December 10, 2017 at 03:08 PM (#5589594)
The Rockets point differential this year isn't much different than the Warriors last year and is a ahead of the Warriors the couple years before that. And that is with all the games Paul has missed. It's only 10 games, but in the 10 games Paul has played the Rockets are blowing out opponents like an all time great team. Obviously they need to sustain it longer and bring it in the playoffs, to know how for real they are, but the upside appears to be there.

The Rockets margin of victory is over 11 per game at the moment, only five teams ever have done that over the course of an entire season.
   1890. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 10, 2017 at 03:17 PM (#5589597)
Any Wolves fan watched much of the Jazz this year and can opine on how worried Jazz should be about Rubio? I was excited about the pickup, but 25 games in and I'm ready to dump him on any team that would take his salary. His shooting is the same as always, but his playmaking has disappeared and he hasn't looked good on defense either. Somehow Jazz are 13 points worse per 100 possessions with him on the court too. I don't know if it's adjusting to Utah's system (and in that case there's still hope) or if he just declined early. I am certain the Jazz should never have him, Favors, and Gobert on the court at the same time again, but I think even if Jazz move Favors they still need to dump Rubio for a PG who can shoot.
   1891. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: December 10, 2017 at 04:07 PM (#5589625)
1. The Warriors aren't trying as hard to win games. Kerr is experimenting with rotations and schemes.

Fair point but this is countered by the fact that Paul has only been in the lineup for 10 of the Rockets' 24 games this year. Assuming the Rockets' best lineups and schemes involve him, the Rockets haven't had their best lineups out as often either.
   1892. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: December 10, 2017 at 04:35 PM (#5589637)
How close are the Rockets to be as good as the Warriors?
not very.

but they might be able to outscore the warriors in 4 out of 7 games.
Any Wolves fan watched much of the Jazz this year and can opine on how worried Jazz should be about Rubio? I was excited about the pickup, but 25 games in and I'm ready to dump him on any team that would take his salary. His shooting is the same as always, but his playmaking has disappeared and he hasn't looked good on defense either. Somehow Jazz are 13 points worse per 100 possessions with him on the court too. I don't know if it's adjusting to Utah's system (and in that case there's still hope) or if he just declined early. I am certain the Jazz should never have him, Favors, and Gobert on the court at the same time again, but I think even if Jazz move Favors they still need to dump Rubio for a PG who can shoot.
that all seems pretty foreseeable.
   1893. tshipman Posted: December 10, 2017 at 05:30 PM (#5589660)
The Rockets point differential this year isn't much different than the Warriors last year and is a ahead of the Warriors the couple years before that. And that is with all the games Paul has missed. It's only 10 games, but in the 10 games Paul has played the Rockets are blowing out opponents like an all time great team. Obviously they need to sustain it longer and bring it in the playoffs, to know how for real they are, but the upside appears to be there.

The Rockets margin of victory is over 11 per game at the moment, only five teams ever have done that over the course of an entire season.


Yeah, I don't want to underplay this.

Our naive expectation should be that the Rockets are a historically great team. However, that should be tempered by the reality that the Rockets are an extremely gimmicky offense and we haven't seen teams like them in the playoffs be super successful.
   1894. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 10, 2017 at 06:41 PM (#5589690)
that all seems pretty foreseeable.


I don't think the problems with his playmaking and defense were. But he has no idea how to feed Gobert the ball (did he seriously never throw lobs to bigs in Minnesota?) and instead of a PG who completes passes almost no other PGs would even attempt, he is just consistently throwing passes that get deflected and/or stolen.
   1895. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: December 10, 2017 at 07:03 PM (#5589700)
I don't think the problems with his playmaking and defense were. But he has no idea how to feed Gobert the ball (did he seriously never throw lobs to bigs in Minnesota?) and instead of a PG who completes passes almost no other PGs would even attempt, he is just consistently throwing passes that get deflected and/or stolen.
his defense was overrated and his playmaking relied on having a rajon rondo-esque command over MIN's offense.

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