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Wednesday, October 11, 2017

OT - NBA 2017-2018 Tip-off Thread

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, some of whom still care about baseball playoffs, but all of whom agree the Celtics gave up too much for Irving.

Here’s the thread’s top 50 players ranking.

Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 11, 2017 at 11:21 AM | 3977 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   2001. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 14, 2017 at 05:30 PM (#5592903)
I wouldn't say that, though this is probably pumping Mirotic's trade value some, which is fine by me (long term, I don't think you can play him and Markkanen together). It's not like they're beating *good* teams (sorry, Jazz fans, not sorry, JC). Like I said before, they're a much more interesting type of bad than the post-dynasty tank.


No need to apologize. I'm all in on building around Gobert and Mitchell and seeing what, if anything, they can get for Favors (I'll miss him) and Rubio (I'll miss his beautiful face). Mitchell and Gobert look like a hell of a foundation, but they're not going to be a good team this season.
   2002. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: December 14, 2017 at 05:54 PM (#5592916)
From last night's Celtics-Nuggets game, which I'm watching now: Five minutes left in the second quarter, Jaylen Brown breaks away and puts up a layup, which Mason Plumlee blocks, but is called for goaltending. They show the replay, which quite conclusively shows that it was a good block and a bad call. The Celtics broadcasters are quiet for a second, then:

HEINSOHN: "What? You're looking at me!"
GORMAN: (chuckles)
HEINSOHN: "The ref made the call. What can I say?"
GORMAN: "It looked like a good block."
HEINSOHN: (quietly) "Yeah, it was a good block."
   2003. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 14, 2017 at 06:27 PM (#5592930)
Mike Gorman is wonderful, both as a play-by-play man and as an understated, sly foil to TOMMY HEINSOHN!!1!
   2004. SteveF Posted: December 14, 2017 at 06:34 PM (#5592935)
There's no shortage of incorrect calls/no calls during a basketball game. If Heinsohn were objective he'd just be complaining about the refs twice as much.
   2005. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: December 14, 2017 at 08:32 PM (#5592996)
The Cavaliers are winning games despite the fact that they are starting three guys with PER of less than 10 on a nightly basis.
   2006. jmurph Posted: December 14, 2017 at 08:49 PM (#5593000)
It's nice to be able to enjoy some of these young Lakers guys now while the team isn't any good and I'm not genealogically obligated to hate them.
   2007. PJ Martinez Posted: December 14, 2017 at 10:21 PM (#5593035)
   2008. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: December 15, 2017 at 03:50 PM (#5593455)
i like this one:
Most NBA attackers work in a crouch (think James Harden or Giannis Antetokounmpo). But from the second Simmons brings the ball across half court as the Sixers' starting point guard, he's notably upright, even more so than LeBron James, the NBA's most pronounced chin-up player (whom Simmons says would be a "beast" in Aussie rules).

If you want something in Aussie rules, you have to find it. Says Simmons, at his locker: "You have to read the movement of the defenders. You have to have great vision."

To Simmons' point, in Aussie rules you can't get caught with possession of the ball when you're tackled. A player is required to get rid of the ball -- and to a teammate if he wants his team to maintain possession -- which means he's constantly scanning the field. Unless a player is in the open field, it's rarely a question of whether he'll be tackled, but when.

"If your man is open, you try to draw a defender, then get rid of the ball," Simmons says. "The ball has to move quickly or you're going to get tackled."

Aussie rules exists in a state of chaos that even the most run-and-gun NBA game can't match.

"[Simmons] doesn't necessarily move into a space with a committed game plan," says Martin, who worked as a sports scientist in Australia for more than two decades. "He moves into space, letting the defender basically decide what he's going to do with the ball. If you come in close, I'll pass it. If you give me space, I'll shoot it. He seems very adept at always playing with options.


When Simmons defends -- he ranks first among point guards in defensive real plus-minus by an ungodly margin, and the Sixers are more than a point better defensively when he's on the floor -- he commonly employs a PG version of the hip-and-shoulder move, a staple of Aussie rules defense.


   2009. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: December 15, 2017 at 04:01 PM (#5593462)
this one's also not bad:

"He's a problem," Lakers coach Luke Walton said on Nov. 15, after Embiid torched his team for 46 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists and 7 blocks

TO UNDERSTAND EMBIID, you must first understand the psychology of the troll

...Embiid is a playful troll.
EMBIID WAS A teenager in Cameroon when he first saw Kobe Bryant in all his swaggering, gunslinging glory during the 2009 NBA Finals. Embiid didn't speak English and had never played organized basketball, yet he knew he wanted to be like Kobe someday.

"I just liked his mentality, the way he was playing. He just didn't care," Embiid says. "I think I needed to figure out a way to be like that more."

In the end, trusting the process really means trusting Embiid.

He's out shagging fly balls during the Home Run Derby at the MLB All-Star Game. He's at the World Series, tweeting "Let's Go Astros!" while wearing a Dodgers jersey.

Before the NBA draft, his first agent, Arn Tellem, hired a social media coach for Embiid. At first, Embiid followed his instructions to post unassuming, sports-focused updates

...Pretty soon he was asking Rihanna out on a date and recruiting LeBron James via Twitter.

   2010. DaVoice of DaPeople Posted: December 15, 2017 at 09:40 PM (#5593581)
Tshipman, stevegamer, others—Thanks very much for taking the time to explain. I am probably never going to understand the game on more than a very basic level, but I appreciate knowing that there’s so much strategy involved.

When I think of basketball defense, I just revert back to how it worked when I last played in junior high: everyone matches up with an opponent, and you guard him, unless someone gets “burnt” and then you leave your guy to help out.

Turns out, it’s a bit more complicated than that.
   2011. Tin Angel Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:02 PM (#5593584)
Good, chippy game going on in Philly right now vs. OKC. In triple overtime.
   2012. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:10 PM (#5593586)
Man, Embiid needs a break. I don't mind how they're pushing him this year. But they are really pushing him tonight, more than I think is prudent.
   2013. PJ Martinez Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:11 PM (#5593588)
I'm not really sure what Brown should do in this situation, but playing Embiid 49 minutes seems questionable.

Edit: Coke to Spicey.
   2014. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:20 PM (#5593589)
OKC vs PHI was fantastic. I echo everyone's Embiid concerns though. Felt like watching a starter throw 140+.
   2015. Booey Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:23 PM (#5593592)
Lose in Chicago despite being fully healthy last game, win by double digits in Boston the next despite missing Gobert and Favors. Makes perfect sense.
   2016. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:32 PM (#5593596)
The Bulls just became the first team in NBA history to follow up a 10-game losing streak or longer with a winning streak of 5 games or more, according to @EliasSports.
   2017. DaVoice of DaPeople Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:42 PM (#5593604)
It’s crazy that Joel Embiid is this good and also somehow NOT the best player in the world.
   2018. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: December 15, 2017 at 10:45 PM (#5593606)
I'm not really sure what Brown should do in this situation, but playing Embiid 49 minutes seems questionable.
brown should have pulled embiid, saric and redick at the start of the 3rd OT, and put in mcconnell, booker and holmes. at least for the first 2 minutes.

OKC vs PHI was fantastic. I echo everyone's Embiid concerns though. Felt like watching a starter throw 140+.
yeah. and it didn't help that he screwed up his back late in the 3rd quarter.
   2019. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: December 15, 2017 at 11:01 PM (#5593611)
It’s crazy that Joel Embiid is this good and also somehow NOT the best player in the world.

there are a few things holding embiid back:
1: his defense isn't as good as it was last year
2: his 3P shooting is a lot worse
3: he takes too many mid range jumpshots
4: he's too much of a counterpuncher when he gets the ball in the post.
5: turnovers

the potential is there, but the efficiency isn't. i don't know that we'll ever see him put everything together while he's still in his athletic prime.
   2020. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: December 15, 2017 at 11:17 PM (#5593616)
I feel like 3 and 5 are what will hold Embiid back the most (besides potential injuries). He just doesn't have a lot of discipline to be as efficient as he should be. Maybe he'll get it, he's young, but I agree by the time he gets it he may be in his late prime, post-peak athleticism.
   2021. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: December 16, 2017 at 12:15 AM (#5593631)
I feel like 3 and 5 are what will hold Embiid back the most (besides potential injuries). He just doesn't have a lot of discipline to be as efficient as he should be. Maybe he'll get it, he's young, but I agree by the time he gets it he may be in his late prime, post-peak athleticism.

there's also a question of how long his athletic prime can last. forget the foot injury that cost him his first two years and forget the knee injury that ended his year last season, if his back is as dodgy as it appears to be, at his size, he could go downhill anytime.

on the other hand, with as much as skill and intelligence as he has, he can still be a great player even if he loses the ability to jump over a can of corn.


oh, and i'll just mention one more time how badly the sixers need a guard who can score in isolation late in games. forcefeeding embiid in the post isn't a terrible option, but they need a 2nd guy who can take some of the pressure off him. that description sounds a lot like someone who was drafted #1 overall very recently, but i forget what happened to him.
   2022. stevegamer Posted: December 16, 2017 at 02:51 AM (#5593646)
oh, and i'll just mention one more time how badly the sixers need a guard who can score in isolation late in games. forcefeeding embiid in the post isn't a terrible option, but they need a 2nd guy who can take some of the pressure off him. that description sounds a lot like someone who was drafted #1 overall very recently, but i forget what happened to him.


I was with you until you seemed to say Lou Williams was drafted #1 overall recently. :)
   2023. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: December 16, 2017 at 12:09 PM (#5593698)
57i66135 official sixers offseason plan version 1A

sign lebron as a free agent
trade markelle fultz, dario saric, robert covington, tj mcconnell, justin anderson, jerryd bayless, anzejs pasecniks, mathias lessort, 2018 LAL #1 (5-10, if conveyed), 2018 PHI #1 (likely 10-25), 2019 PHI #1 (or 2020 PHI #1, if SAC pick is #1 overall) to NOP for anthony davis
sign jonah bolden into cap space
sign lou williams into cap space (of which, i believe there should still be around 5MM)
sign dwyane wade to mini-MLE
sign wilson chandler to BAE
sign ersan ilyasova for veterans minimum
sign salah mejri for veterans minimum

PG ben simmons
SG timothe luwawu
SF lebron james
PF anthony davis
C joel embiid

bench: lou williams, dwyane wade, furkan korkmaz, wilson chandler, ersan ilyasova, jonah bolden, richaun holmes, salah mejri


version 1B will be posted later
   2024. tshipman Posted: December 16, 2017 at 12:31 PM (#5593700)
oh, and i'll just mention one more time how badly the sixers need a guard who can score in isolation late in games. forcefeeding embiid in the post isn't a terrible option, but they need a 2nd guy who can take some of the pressure off him. that description sounds a lot like someone who was drafted #1 overall very recently, but i forget what happened to him.


Jordan Clarkson is available!

(Seriously, though, actual Lou Williams would be a good fit)
   2025. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: December 16, 2017 at 01:05 PM (#5593707)
57i66135 official sixers offseason plan version 1B

sign jonah bolden (36th pick in 2017) into cap space
sign lebron as free agent
trade 2018 LAL #1 (6-10, if conveyed), 2018 PHI #1 (likely 10-25), 2019 PHI #1 (or 2020 PHI #1, if SAC pick is #1 overall), dario saric, richaun holmes, tj mcconnell, anzejs pasecniks (25th pick in 2017), mathias lessort (50th pick in 2017) to ATL for #3 overall pick (draft michael porter jr.)
trade jerryd bayless, timothe luwawu, 2020 NYK #2, 2021 NYK #2 to DAL for nerlens noel (signed for 2/15)
sign dwyane wade to mini-MLE
sign wilson chandler to BAE
sign ersan ilyasova for veterans minimum

PG ben simmons
SG michael porter jr
SF lebron james
PF robert covington
C joel embiid

bench: markelle fultz, dwyane wade, justin anderson, furkan korkmaz, wilson chandler, ersan ilyasova, jonah bolden, nerlens noel


version 1C still to come.
   2026. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: December 16, 2017 at 01:28 PM (#5593717)
While you're dreaming, why not dream that LeBron and George will both come play for the Sixers for $10 million each, the Bucks will have a catastrophic falling out with Giannis Antetokounmpo and trade him to the Sixers for Fultz and spare change, and also that Popovich will leave the Spurs to fulfill his lifelong ambition of coaching the Philadelphia 76ers?
   2027. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: December 16, 2017 at 01:36 PM (#5593720)
57i66135 official sixers offseason plan version 1C

trade 2018 LAL #1 (6-10, if conveyed), 2018 PHI #1 (likely 10-25), 2019 PHI #1 (or 2020 PHI #1, if SAC pick is #1 overall), dario saric, richaun holmes, tj mcconnell, anzejs pasecniks (25th pick in 2017), mathias lessort (50th pick in 2017) to ATL for #3 overall pick (draft michael porter jr.)
sign jonah bolden (36th pick in 2017) into cap space
sign isaiah thomas into cap space (1/20)
sign nerlens noel into cap space (2/15)

PG ben simmons
SG markelle fultz
SF michael porter jr
PF robert covington
C joel embiid

bench: isaiah thomas, jerryd bayless, timothe luwawu, justin anderson, furkan korkmaz, jonah bolden, nerlens noel


version 1D may or may not ever exist
   2028. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: December 16, 2017 at 01:36 PM (#5593721)
(Seriously, though, actual Lou Williams would be a good fit)
so would tyreke evans, assuming MEM goes into firesale mode.
While you're dreaming, why not dream that LeBron and George will both come play for the Sixers for $10 million each, the Bucks will have a catastrophic falling out with Giannis Antetokounmpo and trade him to the Sixers for Fultz and spare change, and also that Popovich will leave the Spurs to fulfill his lifelong ambition of coaching the Philadelphia 76ers?

i don't think any of it is too farfetched.

PHI is now acknowledged as one of the more likely destinations for lebron.

the teams that are likely to be at the top of the lottery are just starting to go into full tear down mode. MEM, ATL and DAL don't have any significant long term assets, so trading michael porter to the sixers allows them to get a bunch of solid young players (saric, mcconell, holmes), interesting lottery tickets (pasecniks, lessort) and 2 additional 1st round picks picks, while moving down only a handful of slots. this draft is deep, so even if they move from 3 to 10, there will still be talent on the board.

trading for anthony davis is admittedly unlikely, but he might try to force his way out if cousins leaves in free agency. if that happens, the sixers can basically underwrite the pelicans rebuild with players, picks and lottery tickets.

   2029. Tin Angel Posted: December 16, 2017 at 05:23 PM (#5593827)
Gobert out for a month with another knee injury.
   2030. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: December 16, 2017 at 05:51 PM (#5593835)
What the hell is wrong with Utah? Why does EVERYONE get hurt there all the time?
   2031. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: December 16, 2017 at 06:19 PM (#5593844)
What the hell is wrong with Utah? Why does EVERYONE get hurt there all the time?
obviously, it's the altitude.

   2032. TFTIO is a very stable genius Posted: December 16, 2017 at 08:15 PM (#5593875)
The Wolves green jerseys are amazing. I don't know if they're good or bad, but they are certainly something.
   2033. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 16, 2017 at 09:42 PM (#5593895)
What the hell is wrong with Utah? Why does EVERYONE get hurt there all the time?


Both of Gobert's injuries this year have been from players falling onto his legs. Jazz have a mostly (or maybe entirely) new training staff this year, FWIW.

And Donovan Mitchell is insane. 26 points on 16 FGA. He was getting to the rim at will in the 4th and was 3-6 from three too. I'm not certain he's the best player from this draft class, but there's also nobody I would trade him for either.
   2034. JC in DC Posted: December 17, 2017 at 10:27 AM (#5593960)
So, the Knicks beat OKC, exhausted from their 3 OT win the night before, without KP and Hardaway, Jr. And yet I'm excited by the W. 4 in a row. They are moving the ball so well, and I'm sure Beasley gives away on the other end of the floor, but man, that cat can score. I really hope he's found some peace in his life and can work himself into being a consistent contributor in NY or elsewhere, because he's a super talented guy. His athleticism remains elite.
   2035. kubiwan Posted: December 17, 2017 at 10:34 AM (#5593962)
(draft michael porter jr.)


Stiggles is obviously interested in making Philly more efficient: rather than wait for players to get hurt while on the roster, why not just draft players that are ALREADY hurt?
   2036. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: December 17, 2017 at 12:25 PM (#5593990)
Stiggles is obviously interested in making Philly more efficient: rather than wait for players to get hurt while on the roster, why not just draft players that are ALREADY hurt?
both embiid and noel were injured when the sixers drafted them, so taking porter is in line with that legacy.

the big difference with porter is that he might actually be ready to play by the start of training camp.

   2037. Randomly Fluctuating Defensive Metric Posted: December 17, 2017 at 03:48 PM (#5594049)
I really hope he's found some peace in his life and can work himself into being a consistent contributor in NY or elsewhere, because he's a super talented guy. His athleticism remains elite.


I was already thinking cheap extension after the game last night. He's an offensive weapon in any rotation.
   2038. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 17, 2017 at 08:27 PM (#5594128)
Ex-Wife Of Deceased NBA Star Lorenzen Wright Indicted For Murder
The ex-wife of deceased NBA player Lorenzen Wright has been charged with first degree murder in an indictment accusing her of conspiring with another man to kill her ex-husband.
....
Sherra Wright, 46, and previously indicted Billy R. Turner, also 46, were indicted by a Shelby County Grand Jury on charges of first-degree premeditated murder, conspiracy to commit first-degree murder and attempted first-degree murder.
....
On July 28, 2010, Lorenzen Wright’s body was discovered in a field; riddled with bullet holes–the result of being shot multiple times. The indictment claims that Wright would have been killed sometime between the 17th and 20th of July 2010. He was 34-years-old at the time he was murdered.

The Memphis Bucks star was last seen alive on July 18, 2010–when he was leaving Sherra Wright’s home. The next morning, local police received a 911 call from his cell phone. That call was cut short by gunfire.
   2039. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: December 18, 2017 at 09:30 AM (#5594237)
Beasley still doesn't have good advanced numbers. He's a limited defensive player, and inefficient offensively. His TS% has been good the last few years, finally, as his game has matured a bit. But he's turning the ball over a ton and doesn't really pass, so his offensive impact doesn't match his scoring ability imo.

He's an ok guy to come off the bench for units that need scoring, but that's it. And he's gonna give most of that back.
   2040. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 18, 2017 at 11:43 AM (#5594341)
Phil Jackson‏ @PhilJackson11

Congratulations Kobe Bryant! Hail Momba, too. Two Jersey’s retired is one way to measure your impact for the Lakers. The GOAT measure is:
   2041. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: December 18, 2017 at 11:57 AM (#5594355)
Scott O'Neil ‏@ScottONeil
Congrats to @sixers Kevin Johnson named 2017 NATA AAPSM Excellence In Athletic Training Award and 2017 NBA Head Athletic Trainer of the year award. Voted by all NBA Athletic Trainers.


in wholly unrelated news:
Pat Gallen‏ @PatGallenCBS3
On top of the Eagles playing terribly, Sixers guard Furkan Korkmaz is out indefinitely with a lisfranc injury in his left foot.



   2042. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 18, 2017 at 12:05 PM (#5594364)
Embiid is ducking the Bulls yet again tonight. Still hasn't played them yet.
   2043. jmurph Posted: December 18, 2017 at 12:12 PM (#5594370)
Scott O'Neil ‏@ScottONeil
Congrats to @sixers Kevin Johnson named 2017 NATA AAPSM Excellence In Athletic Training Award and 2017 NBA Head Athletic Trainer of the year award. Voted by all NBA Athletic Trainers.

Based on workload alone this seems more than deserved.
   2044. jmurph Posted: December 18, 2017 at 12:13 PM (#5594371)
Embiid is ducking the Bulls yet again tonight. Still hasn't played them yet.

Will the win streak continue?

What's the latest on LaVine?
   2045. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 18, 2017 at 12:31 PM (#5594391)
K.C. Johnson‏ @KCJHoop Dec 17

Markkanen will practice some, gameday decision vs. 76ers. LaVine won’t practice with back spasms.

K.C. Johnson‏ @KCJHoop Dec 12

Kris Dunn on LaVine's much maligned D: ". In practices, I’m seeing his defense has definitely improved. I joke on him every practice because now he’s starting to read the offense a little better on the defensive end. I think his defense is going to rise."

K.C. Johnson‏ @KCJHoop Dec 9

Bulls assign Zach LaVine to Windy City Bulls. Previously, Bulls have said they didn’t envision LaVine playing in G League games. He has practiced with team. Hoiberg will update pregame if stance on games has changed.

K.C. Johnson‏ @KCJHoop Dec 5

Sounding more and more like LaVine's debut will be in January, not December. He's currently on an every other day plan. Hoiberg said they want multiple consecutive days of work.
   2046. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 18, 2017 at 12:48 PM (#5594417)
Phil Jackson‏ @PhilJackson11

Congratulations Kobe Bryant! Hail Momba, too. Two Jersey’s retired is one way to measure your impact for the Lakers. The GOAT measure is:


"Momba"?
   2047. jmurph Posted: December 18, 2017 at 01:45 PM (#5594484)
Sounding more and more like LaVine's debut will be in January, not December. He's currently on an every other day plan. Hoiberg said they want multiple consecutive days of work.

I hope he retains most of the athleticism, he can be fun to watch. Still not even 23.

(Thanks for posting, Moses)
   2048. maccoach57 Posted: December 18, 2017 at 02:11 PM (#5594516)
Phil thinks the Momba retirement ceremony plans are goink well.
   2049. JC in DC Posted: December 18, 2017 at 02:50 PM (#5594558)
Covfefe, Momba!
   2050. jmurph Posted: December 18, 2017 at 05:03 PM (#5594690)
Any of the resident Lakers fans going to be in attendance? I imagine the secondary market is a little crazy.
   2051. Tin Angel Posted: December 18, 2017 at 10:13 PM (#5594816)
The Rockets just dropped 41 on the Jazz in the 4th. Capela with 20 rebounds. I'm beginning to wonder if they have a shot against the Warriors.
   2052. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 18, 2017 at 10:20 PM (#5594820)
Hahaha. What in the actual ####.
   2053. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: December 18, 2017 at 10:39 PM (#5594825)
The Clips are about to drop to 11-18. Austin Rivers is -30 in this game.

Yes or no: Doc gets fired before the end of the season?
   2054. tshipman Posted: December 18, 2017 at 10:56 PM (#5594830)
Yes or no: Doc gets fired before the end of the season?


100% he quits or is fired by the end of the season. You have to say the ASB for there to even be any doubt.
   2055. Tin Angel Posted: December 19, 2017 at 12:24 AM (#5594868)
Literally teared up watching Kobe's jersey retirement (and I'm a Warriors fan). Maybe because I'm his exact age so it made me feel old. Such a smart, dedicated person, and the ceremony was handled with the respect and class he deserves.
   2056. JC in DC Posted: December 19, 2017 at 06:14 AM (#5594888)
Ginobili: are there going to be arguments about whether he's a hall of famer? I'm going to miss that guy's game as much as anyone's.
   2057. PJ Martinez Posted: December 19, 2017 at 06:36 AM (#5594891)
I'm not the only one who thinks that putting two jerseys in the rafters is a bit much, am I? I realize that the team I root for retires too many numbers in general, and that, as a Celtics fan, anything I say about Kobe is suspect. But having one jersey in the rafters for West, one for Magic, and two for Kobe seems rather disproportionate. (Edit: this is cool, though.)
   2058. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: December 19, 2017 at 07:15 AM (#5594894)
This universal love in for Kobe makes me a little uncomfortable, to be honest. I feel like there is a lot of pretending about the man in the NBA world. This isn't to start an argument but I just thought I'd put my queasiness on the record.

Semi-related, I'm listening to Jack McCallum's new book on the 71 Lakers and the current Warriors now and there's a lot of Elgin Baylor stuff in the book. I really hope the Lakers management sees fit to honor him with a statue.

Also, one point in the book I have to disagree with McCallum about--it may have seemed all Warriors fans were against the Monta Ellis for Bogut deal but it's not true. A lot of Warriors fans, like me, were ecstatic. That was the moment I had hope this new Warriors ownership group was serious about winning.
   2059. TFTIO is a very stable genius Posted: December 19, 2017 at 07:27 AM (#5594896)
I dislike Kobe the player and Kobe the person but I’m not interested in relitigating those arguments. Out of sight, finally out of mind.
   2060. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: December 19, 2017 at 07:41 AM (#5594897)
Another thing in McCallum's book I was surprised to learn is what a contentious relationship West had with Jerry Buss. I didn't have access to the daily beat reporting on the Lakers then so, from the outside enviously looking in, I never would have guessed there was so much dissatisfaction behind the scenes.
   2061. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: December 19, 2017 at 07:46 AM (#5594898)
Oh and last thing, I forget where I saw it but I enjoyed the joke last night that Kevin Durant and Klay Thomspon did their best Kobe impression to keep in the spirit of last night's ceremony. And I didn't see the game but Lonzo had the kind of line he should keep aspiring to have--efficient scoring on a modest number of attempts. I'm unsupervised today so I'll get to watch the game on delay and see if his line was the result of good play.
   2062. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: December 19, 2017 at 09:21 AM (#5594916)
Ginobili: are there going to be arguments about whether he's a hall of famer? I'm going to miss that guy's game as much as anyone's.

I don't think so. He's considered to be a key part of the Spurs run over the last 20 years. And not just in a role player way, but part of their big 3. Add in the international credentials, ringzz, reputation among common fans/media, advanced stats, and I imagine he'll coast. His only real argument against is minutes/game, right? I don't think that should outweigh the strong parts of his resume, and even if it should, I don't think it will.
   2063. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: December 19, 2017 at 09:23 AM (#5594918)
Doc is never going to quit, because he knows he day he quits will be the last day Austin gets to play big minutes in an NBA game. They'll have to fire him.
   2064. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: December 19, 2017 at 09:25 AM (#5594921)
Ginobli will cruise into the HOF.

   2065. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: December 19, 2017 at 09:29 AM (#5594924)
Doc is never going to quit, because he knows he day he quits will be the last day Austin gets to play big minutes in an NBA game. They'll have to fire him.

I really don't think that is his motivation. I think a lot of people in the NBA think he's a good to very good coach, too. I would expect him to get another job after this if he wanted it, but it may be at a lower tier team.
   2066. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: December 19, 2017 at 09:35 AM (#5594928)
Yes, but that team probably won't give him the roster authority that signing Austin to a big contract and giving him 20+ minutes a game would require. Austin will be heading to Europe or China soon.
   2067. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 19, 2017 at 10:01 AM (#5594938)
This universal love in for Kobe makes me a little uncomfortable, to be honest. I feel like there is a lot of pretending about the man in the NBA world. This isn't to start an argument but I just thought I'd put my queasiness on the record.


You aren't the only one. I think the adulation is sort of gross given his past.

I dislike Kobe the player and Kobe the person but I’m not interested in relitigating those arguments. Out of sight, finally out of mind.


Same, and I hope so too.

   2068. jmurph Posted: December 19, 2017 at 10:05 AM (#5594942)
For the record, as the furthest thing from a Lakers fan, "ugggggghhhh Kobe, but I do NOT want to argue about him again" is not the best way to avoid an argument!

   2069. jmurph Posted: December 19, 2017 at 10:08 AM (#5594945)
I still think Doc is a good coach, but solely suited for a veteran team headed for the playoffs.
   2070. tshipman Posted: December 19, 2017 at 10:40 AM (#5594955)
Lonzo in December (7 games):

10.3/6.4/6.9 on 51.5% TS with 2.9 Steals+Blocks per game.

That's the kind of progress you'd hope to see from someone who started out shooting so poorly.
   2071. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: December 19, 2017 at 11:03 AM (#5594960)
I know the Thunder won last night and have won 7 of their last 10, but they seem to be sliding back into the same kind of basketball they played last season and I think there's a pretty low ceiling for what they can achieve with that.
   2072. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: December 19, 2017 at 11:19 AM (#5594970)
I know the Thunder won last night and have won 7 of their last 10, but they seem to be sliding back into the same kind of basketball they played last season and I think there's a pretty low ceiling for what they can achieve with that.

Making the Finals and pushing the 73 win Warriors to within a minute of their playoff lives?

I think people make the issues about OKC too much about style. Obviously they had KD back then, but it was the same "style". It's not fun to watch but they're effective when healthy (and they had the talent). The bigger issue here is I don't think they really have the talent - Melo isn't good enough, and Westbrook is having his worst season in a long time (a lot of this is shooting).
   2073. JuanGone..except1game Posted: December 19, 2017 at 11:23 AM (#5594973)
For the record, as the furthest thing from a Lakers fan, "ugggggghhhh Kobe, but I do NOT want to argue about him again" is not the best way to avoid an argument!

Yeah, I always laugh how 'triggering' the mention of Kobe is some circles. But hey, some pronounce it "Mamba" and some "Momba"..

Lonzo in December (7 games):

10.3/6.4/6.9 on 51.5% TS with 2.9 Steals+Blocks per game.

Few players have come in the league with the publicity and hype that Lonzo had, especially without being a Lebron/Shaq caliber athlete to count on when they dealt with the early difficulty. It's good to see that there is some early growth so far, and with other scorers like Ingram, it looks like he's settling into more of a 8-12 shot per game player (which he should be). Also, and while it's going to get said all season, Kuzma was just an unbelievable find. Defense still needs some work, but it's amazing how well his offensive game fits the pros.
   2074. tshipman Posted: December 19, 2017 at 11:26 AM (#5594976)
I think people make the issues about OKC too much about style. Obviously they had KD back then, but it was the same "style". It's not fun to watch but they're effective when healthy (and they had the talent). The bigger issue here is I don't think they really have the talent - Melo isn't good enough, and Westbrook is having his worst season in a long time (a lot of this is shooting).


Yes. People make too much about "fit" also.

LeBron and Wade never really fit in Miami, and it never mattered.
   2075. Booey Posted: December 19, 2017 at 11:29 AM (#5594980)
Making the Finals and pushing the 73 win Warriors to within a minute of their playoff lives?


Conference Finals. And you're missing a year in between there. ;-)

Last season the Thunder were a 47 win 6th seed (with a pythag 4 or 5 games lower) and won just 1 playoff game.
   2076. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: December 19, 2017 at 11:42 AM (#5594989)
Ginobili: are there going to be arguments about whether he's a hall of famer? I'm going to miss that guy's game as much as anyone's.

If there were an NBA Hall of Fame, there would be arguments. But since it's purely a basketball Hall of Fame I expect he'll be an easy selection. The 2004 Olympics by themselves make him one of the most accomplished international players ever: gold medal, MVP, torched Team USA in the semifinals with 29 points on 9-13 fg, 7-8 ft. On top of that he's won the the Italian League while being MVP and Euroleague while being Finals MVP. Tack on a few more Olympic and FIBA medals, plus being the greatest player ever from South America / Latin America, leading the greatest national team ever from that region. I think he'd make the Hall of Fame based on international achievements alone.
   2077. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 19, 2017 at 11:50 AM (#5594995)
Hahaha. What in the actual ####.

This was about the Bulls storming back with a huge late run to beat the Embiidless Sixers. To make matters worse for the Sixers, there was a scoring change after the game that took away an assist and thus triple double from Simmons.

The way Mirotic is playing now was the best case fantasy/hope for him when he came over. Only 6 games, but he's shooting better, rebounding better, turning the ball over less, doing fewer slow head fakes, he's put on muscle. He still doesn't really have a future on this team, but the Cubs might get something decent for him come the trade deadline.

Of course, because it's the Bulls, the stupid postgame discussion was all about making a playoff run and that the push for a better draft pick is off.
   2078. jmurph Posted: December 19, 2017 at 12:27 PM (#5595028)
Last night was another entry in the "player that jmurph constantly downgrades torches his favorite team" games. Oladipo scored 12 in the final 2 minutes, 38 overall, and almost single-handedly beat the Celtics. Luckily Austin Croshere's younger brother threw a terrible pass rather than waiting to get fouled, and the Celtics pulled ahead for the win. Boston isn't really a very good defensive team right now, but Oladipo got whatever he wanted, he was impressive.
   2079. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: December 19, 2017 at 12:49 PM (#5595044)
Last season the Thunder were a 47 win 6th seed (with a pythag 4 or 5 games lower) and won just 1 playoff game.

This seems to be their path this year, too.

Oladipo seems for real, BTW. It would be easy to bash OKC about it but I will theorize the reason Oladipo has improved so much is BECAUSE OKC traded him. Maybe being traded again was a wake up call for him to really get into shape and start making the most of his career. Those before and after photos of his body they showed during the game against OKC were incredible.
   2080. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: December 19, 2017 at 01:28 PM (#5595069)
Oladipo wasn't nearly this good for Orlando, either--granting that Orlando was a messed up organization at that time.

That said...

For many decades, blowhard sports commentators have said and written innumerable versions of "the stats don't matter, the game is played by PEOPLE not ROBOTS, this guy is a great teammate and a winning player and this other guy who has great stats is a lousy teammate and a losing player!" And in response to that, more thoughtful fans and commentators have taken up the extreme opposite position, that there's no such thing as a guy who puts up great stats but makes his teammates worse.

But if you think back over the places you've worked over your lifetime, you definitely have known a few people who were very skilled but made everyone around them miserable with their attitude and their demands. There's no reason to think sports are different, and they are not.

I love watching Russell Westbrook play. I'm sure glad he's not my teammate and he doesn't play for a team I'm emotionally invested in. It's amazing how many otherwise sharp people just refuse to believe it's possible that his attitude and the way he plays makes his teammates worse.
   2081. maccoach57 Posted: December 19, 2017 at 01:46 PM (#5595080)
I'm not the only one who thinks that putting two jerseys in the rafters is a bit much, am I?


It is an appropriate gesture given Bryant's career. Nobody else played 20 straight years with the team and won multiple titles wearing two different
jerseys.

This universal love in for Kobe makes me a little uncomfortable, to be honest. I feel like there is a lot of pretending about the man in the NBA world. This isn't to start an argument but I just thought I'd put my queasiness on the record.


Yes, because no one was aware of how you felt about him before, since opposing fans here have always been so reticent about expressing feelings about him. As to the point, many of the players see him much differently, obviously, than a guy like you does, for a wide range of obvious reasons, and he has always been revered by many guys in the George/Durant/Green/Curry generation. You probably think "rapist" and they probably think "badass competitor and legend." If you are talking about the media, Bryant has always been good with the media, and obviously TNT/ESPN are part of the NBA's promotional machinery. Mostly, though, Bryant bought his way out of trouble, stayed out of further trouble, and he was great at what he did, and that is part of how super-privilege works, as we will probably see over the next few years with, say, Louis CK.


Same, and I hope so too.


Not a chance, in your case. You are as into him as his fans are, just in a different way.

   2082. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 19, 2017 at 01:51 PM (#5595081)
I love watching Russell Westbrook play. I'm sure glad he's not my teammate and he doesn't play for a team I'm emotionally invested in. It's amazing how many otherwise sharp people just refuse to believe it's possible that his attitude and the way he plays makes his teammates worse.


The Ringer did an article a week or so ago about this.. It wasn't to the depth I'd like, but it does seem pretty consistent that players who leave OKC (Durant aside, as he's a horse of a different color) either get better or aren't good enough to hang in the NBA period.

I don't think you even need to psychoanalyze Westbook's attitude to point to the issue, though. Oladipo and Sabonis both are doing well because they're better able to play to their strengths out from under RW's shadow. Oladipo gets to create with time on the shot clock, and Sabonis gets to play in the paint instead of being miscast as a stretch shooter. Westbrook is a ball-dominating player who stands around with his hands on his knees when he doesn't have the ball. If you're not a player that does well doing something quickly off of a pass or a kickout, I'm not sure how you'd do well next to him. It's his team and he's shown zero inclination to adjust his approach. I would hope another year or two of good stats, middling team wins, and an early playout exit will convince him that he needs to evolve, but we'll see. Until then, it's hard to imagine a player blossoming on OKC given how rigid the support roles around him seem to be by necessity.
   2083. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: December 19, 2017 at 02:18 PM (#5595090)
Yes, because no one was aware of how you felt about him before, since opposing fans here have always been so reticent about expressing feelings about him. As to the point, many of the players see him much differently, obviously, than a guy like you does, for a wide range of obvious reasons, and he has always been revered by many guys in the George/Durant/Green/Curry generation. You probably think "rapist" and they probably think "badass competitor and legend." If you are talking about the media, Bryant has always been good with the media, and obviously TNT/ESPN are part of the NBA's promotional machinery. Mostly, though, Bryant bought his way out of trouble, stayed out of further trouble, and he was great at what he did, and that is part of how super-privilege works, as we will probably see over the next few years with, say, Louis CK.

The internet never disappoints! You realize nothing you said there that is unknown to me. I realize how justice and privilege work in this country as well as our convenient habit of compartmentalizing inconvenient truths. I'm free to express my mild dissent regardless of how pointless it is. When STIGGLES, or whoever the hell he'll be in the future, looks back on this thread 10 years from now--if he has the time in between watching youtube clips of the 76ers 5th consecutive run to the Larry O'Brien trophy--he'll know that Shooty, and some of the good people in alt-Shooty said nay. Nay, friends, this was a bit too much for me but I didn't lose any sleep over it (well, technically I did because they were playing God's team and I can't help but wake up around 2 am to check the west coast scores when God's team is playing). Or, just as likely, President Kobe will have Shooty and some of the good people in alt-Shooty locked up.

I love watching Russell Westbrook play. I'm sure glad he's not my teammate and he doesn't play for a team I'm emotionally invested in. It's amazing how many otherwise sharp people just refuse to believe it's possible that his attitude and the way he plays makes his teammates worse.

At least Enes Kanter misses Russ. Also, I'm pretty sure you're Kevin O'Connor now...
   2084. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: December 19, 2017 at 02:28 PM (#5595103)
   2085. aberg Posted: December 19, 2017 at 02:32 PM (#5595106)
the Cubs might get something decent for him come the trade deadline.


It has been that kind of season for the Bulls.

Same, and I hope so too.


Not a chance, in your case. You are as into him as his fans are, just in a different way.


FWIW, I am not wired this way. I don't like when the Yankees are good, even if it is good for baseball. I don't want to have to go through a traditional powerhouse to get to a championship. I just want the things that make me unhappy to go away.

I love watching Russell Westbrook play. I'm sure glad he's not my teammate and he doesn't play for a team I'm emotionally invested in. It's amazing how many otherwise sharp people just refuse to believe it's possible that his attitude and the way he plays makes his teammates worse.


I'm open to the idea, but I don't think it's fair to definitively conclude one way or the other without any definitive proof. He did go to a finals and came within a game of another, so it's not like his teams are doomed to mediocrity no matter what.
   2086. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 19, 2017 at 02:54 PM (#5595125)
I'm open to the idea, but I don't think it's fair to definitively conclude one way or the other without any definitive proof. He did go to a finals and came within a game of another, so it's not like his teams are doomed to mediocrity no matter what.

That's true, but having a Kevin Durant makes up for a lot of a team's sins of inefficiency.
   2087. aberg Posted: December 19, 2017 at 03:13 PM (#5595136)
That's true, but having a Kevin Durant makes up for a lot of a team's sins of inefficiency.


Sure, but the weird psychoanalytic arguments about Westbrook often go beyond the advanced stats. If he was purely debilitating as a teammate (which isn't your point, but it's a common one nonetheless), then even KD wouldn't be able to overcome that abyss.
   2088. jmurph Posted: December 19, 2017 at 03:39 PM (#5595157)
Sure, but the weird psychoanalytic arguments about Westbrook often go beyond the advanced stats. If he was purely debilitating as a teammate (which isn't your point, but it's a common one nonetheless), then even KD wouldn't be able to overcome that abyss.

I don't think you have to do the psychoanalyzing to get there anyway, I just think it's really difficult to build a championship caliber team around an extremely ball-dominant (relatively) little guy. The list of teams that fit that description is practically non-existent. The first Heat title? Technically yes, but Wade had a little help from Shaq. The Gary Payton Sonics? And Payton's USG wasn't even in the same universe as Westbrook's last year. The Iverson Sixers are the go-to here, usually, but that team wasn't exactly a great one- 7th in SRS that season, expected W-L of 54-28. But sure, they did play in the Finals.

So then you're basically left with Curry, and all it took there was an essentially perfectly assembled roster including a two-way, 5 position defensive monster, an all-time great shooter totally content to be the 2nd or 3rd option, and several swiss-army knives off the bench.

Basically I think the odds are against Westbrook and OKC already, and then they (and mostly he) compound that with some questionable choices around style of play.
   2089. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: December 19, 2017 at 03:54 PM (#5595169)
compound that with some questionable choices around style of play.

I think the theory is that with Westbrook a coach isn't offered the choice of style of play. I don't know what to think of that because we're talking about a really small sample of coaches + Westbrook. We need to clone Westbrook and have him play for Pop or Kerr for a couple of years.
   2090. Tin Angel Posted: December 19, 2017 at 04:15 PM (#5595186)
I just think it's really difficult to build a championship caliber team around an extremely ball-dominant (relatively) little guy.


Kobe and Pau
   2091. Booey Posted: December 19, 2017 at 04:19 PM (#5595188)
Kobe and Pau


Isn't Kobe like 6'8"? He's not a little guy.

Jordan's closer to being a little guy than Kobe (and I still wouldn't classify him as such).
   2092. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 19, 2017 at 04:19 PM (#5595189)
I dislike Kobe the player and Kobe the person but I’m not interested in relitigating those arguments. Out of sight, finally out of mind.
Same, and I hope so too.
The man was the most physically charismatic player between Jordan and Lebron. He's won some stuff. He's scored more career points than Michael Jordan. He dropped 81 in a single game. You think we're going to ever stop talking about him? Not. A. Chance. And one of the most fulfillings reasons we're not is because of how much y'all hate his guts, so by all means, continue to insist on telling us how you don't wanna talk about it.
   2093. jmurph Posted: December 19, 2017 at 04:23 PM (#5595191)
The thing I'll always remember about Kobe's 81 point game is that I fell asleep with the TV on that night in my tiny studio apartment, woke up to the 2am or whatever SportsCenter showing a graphic of his stats for the night, and my initial understanding, for several minutes, was that they were discussing a really good stretch of games in which he scored 81 total points, and I was very unimpressed. I was like, "81 points over however many games, who cares?" Then I realized it was just the one game.
   2094. Tin Angel Posted: December 19, 2017 at 04:26 PM (#5595192)
Isn't Kobe like 6'8"? He's not a little guy.


6'6" but he mentioned Wade so I thought it was worth mentioning...
   2095. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 19, 2017 at 04:38 PM (#5595196)
Zachary Kram @zachkram 1h1 hour ago

The Rockets could shoot a 2-pointer on their next 774 shots and still have the highest 3-point rate in the league. They're not even 30 games into the season.
   2096. aberg Posted: December 19, 2017 at 04:53 PM (#5595202)
The Rockets could shoot a 2-pointer on their next 774 shots and still have the highest 3-point rate in the league. They're not even 30 games into the season.


Not sure why he mentions 30 games. What impact does that have on their 3pt rate?
   2097. Booey Posted: December 19, 2017 at 04:58 PM (#5595204)
6'6" but he mentioned Wade so I thought it was worth mentioning...


I might be thinking of young Kobe, who added a couple extra inches of afro...
   2098. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 19, 2017 at 05:11 PM (#5595214)
The way I've been thinking of Westbrook's style is that he in may ways came around twenty years too late. Can you imagine trying to stop him without today's help defenses? He's not as large as they were, certainly not 6'8" like Kobe, but he's very much in the MJ/Kobe mold otherwise (I guess I'm saying he's today's Iverson, which kind of fits given how polarizing he is), of a high-usage guy who wants to work with a screener and stationary shooters surrounding him. Which would work if those were still the rules, but in today's pace-and-space game I don't see how he could be the centerpiece of a great offense without either becoming a better distributor or being more willing to integrate into a system that takes the ball out of his hands and moves him without it. Whether AI, Kobe, or MJ could have adjusted to today's game, and I think we'd all bet they would, they wouldn't be as successful in today's NBA as they were in their heydays without changing their style of play.

If you buy that, and I think I do, Westbook is an interesting test case, but doomed to not get too deeply in the playoffs without something like a time-sharing arrangement like he had with Durant. Melo isn't good enough any more, and PG13 hasn't had the right role in their offense, whether or not that role can be figured out.
   2099. SteveF Posted: December 19, 2017 at 05:21 PM (#5595219)
Not sure why he mentions 30 games. What impact does that have on their 3pt rate?

The Rockets could shoot a 2-pointer on their next 774 shots

They amassed the 774 shot differential in just 30 games is why I'm guessing. I get the arithmetic doesn't quite work that way given denominators and such, but 774 isn't a rate stat.

I'm not trying to be argumentative nor am I saying you don't have a point, but I think that was the logic of mentioning 30 games.
   2100. aberg Posted: December 19, 2017 at 05:34 PM (#5595230)
They amassed the 774 shot differential in just 30 games is why I'm guessing. I get the arithmetic doesn't quite work that way given denominators and such, but 774 isn't a rate stat.

I'm not trying to be argumentative nor am I saying you don't have a point, but I think that was the logic of mentioning 30 games.


Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Clumsy way for him to explain it, but such is Twitter.
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