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Wednesday, October 11, 2017

OT - NBA 2017-2018 Tip-off Thread

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, some of whom still care about baseball playoffs, but all of whom agree the Celtics gave up too much for Irving.

Here’s the thread’s top 50 players ranking.

Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 11, 2017 at 11:21 AM | 3977 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   2701. jmurph Posted: January 19, 2018 at 12:26 PM (#5609487)
Yeah, agree with all of this. I feel like Batum is a classic "this guy is better on a good team" player (like Boris Diaw, there's a rule we have to compare French players to each other I think). But 3/76 after this year... man. I actually even liked this signing a bit when it happened, you need these players on good teams, Batum was pretty good on a 48-34 team after they traded for him, and Charlotte isn't exactly a prime FA destination. Looks pretty terrible now though. Good thing I'm not an NBA GM.

In fairness to you, I think a lot of teams would have done that deal at the time.
   2702. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: January 19, 2018 at 12:31 PM (#5609491)
If Hornets are tanking and going to suck anyway, why would they reduce the assets they'll get for Kemba by attaching Batum? It would seem likely they won't be pushing the tax anyway and moving other deals could presumably get them close to the minimum?
   2703. Just TFTIO Posted: January 19, 2018 at 01:27 PM (#5609561)
No one should take on Batum.

I would be happy with him on the Wolves.
   2704. tshipman Posted: January 19, 2018 at 02:29 PM (#5609646)
Who says no?

Charlotte: Tony Parker (with a *wink* *wink* buyout agreement in place), Patty Mills, Rudy Gay
San Antonio: Nic Batum, Kemba Walker
   2705. jmurph Posted: January 19, 2018 at 02:46 PM (#5609667)
Wait Kemba is under contract for next year? I thought he had an opt-out or was a straight free agent. Hmm, I think they need something real back, in that case. $12 million for him next year is incredibly cheap.
   2706. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: January 19, 2018 at 04:58 PM (#5609803)
Potential Kemba destinations:

3. Philadelphia--this would drastically improve this team. Would the Sixers ever say f-it and just offer Markelle Fultz straight up? Would the Bobcats accept?

no, the sixers would not do that.
no, the bobcats would not accept.

something like this might get within spitting distance, though:
PHI: kemba, thabo, ekpe udoh
CHO: rubio, saric, amir johnson, joe johnson, jerryd bayless
UTA: nic batum, cody zeller, tj mcconnell


the sixers would need to ante up at least one more high value asset, but even after trading for fultz they should still be able to pull something like this off...assuming UTA would be happy to eat batum to save the embarrassment of trying to sign more free agents and being laughed at and hung up on.
   2707. tshipman Posted: January 19, 2018 at 05:27 PM (#5609829)
Why is Utah agreeing to that? They're taking on money and getting worse.

For that matter, why is Charlotte? Cody Zeller isn't overpaid, and they shouldn't need to take on Jerryd Bayless.

If Utah is willing to take on Batum, they'll keep Kemba, too.
   2708. aberg Posted: January 19, 2018 at 05:31 PM (#5609832)
I know this wouldn't happen in season (and probably not at all), but wouldn't this trade be better for both teams?

MEM: IT, Love, Tristan, Nets pick
CLE: Conley, Gasol
   2709. JJ1986 Posted: January 19, 2018 at 05:35 PM (#5609836)
I'm a Cody Zeller fan but I don't think the Jazz would want their Rudy Gobert insurance to be someone who is hurt all the time.
   2710. aberg Posted: January 19, 2018 at 05:38 PM (#5609839)
I would be happy with him on the Wolves.


I like Batum as a player, but with that money on the books, they'd go way over the tax trying to re-sign KAT and Butler.
   2711. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: January 19, 2018 at 05:39 PM (#5609840)
Potential Kemba destinations:

1. New York Knicks--I dunno, they can put together a package the easiest, but does Kemba even make them a playoff team? Probably not this year, maybe next year. Also, why sell on Frank? I think he's going to be good.
2. Pacers--I like this trade. They have their own first, right? So it could be their first, plus Cory Joseph or Darren Collison (although Collison has been sneaky good).
3. Philadelphia--this would drastically improve this team. Would the Sixers ever say f-it and just offer Markelle Fultz straight up? Would the Bobcats accept?
4. Detroit--probably the best spot for Kemba. Van Gundy and Clifford are very similar coaches and Kemba's a straight upgrade over Reggie Jackson. Probably won't happen.
5. Spurs--Spurs never make deals like this, but it would make sense for all parties.
6. Nuggets--Nuggets are in the 9 spot and probably need to make the playoffs for their GM to keep his job. They have a bunch of interesting guys they could package, but I question the fit a bit because Jokic needs the ball so much.
7. Utah--Are the Jazz buyers? Probably not.
8. Dallas--not sure if the Mavs are buyers, but would allow a talent upgrade. Carlisle likes to play 2 pgs, so he and Dennis Smith Jr could fit.

NYK: ntilikina is shooting worse than lonzo ball.
IND: i don't think joseph or collison moves the needle in any kind of rebuild. maybe if there's a 3rd team.
DET: would be an easier sell if ellenson, johnson or kennard were playing better.
SAS: i like anderson, mills and bertans, plus they have some stashes in europe.
DEN: they're #1 on my list. they can get it done without touching jokic, harris or millsap. they can build a package around murray, they have the contracts to swap for batum, and while it may screw up their fit, i see that as a good thing since their fit isn't winning games.
UTA: they won't be able to resign kemba, so they shouldn't be in the market for him.
DAL: if they're not sending smith, they don't have a lot to offer.
   2712. tshipman Posted: January 19, 2018 at 05:44 PM (#5609841)
I know this wouldn't happen in season (and probably not at all), but wouldn't this trade be better for both teams?


Gasol is not good on defense these days. I doubt that changes on Cleveland.

Is Conley going to play this year?
The note on his BBREF page is not promising:

Player Injury (Achilles): Conley is sidelined due to left Achilles soreness and will miss an unknown period of time. (Updated Tuesday, November 14, 2017)
   2713. aberg Posted: January 19, 2018 at 05:49 PM (#5609845)
Is Conley going to play this year?


I have him and Kawai in fantasy basketball this year, so I am well-versed in mysterious injury updates. From what I can tell, Conley has been doing some drills and scrimmaging, but hasn't set a timetable for return. If he's scrimmaging, it would surprise me if he was out for another month, let alone the season. Of course, setbacks can happen and I also don't know what I'm talking about.
   2714. tshipman Posted: January 19, 2018 at 05:50 PM (#5609847)
Haha what?

Shams Charania‏Verified account
@ShamsCharania

Sources: In effort to bolster backcourt, Cleveland emerges as interested suitor for Sacramento's George Hill.
   2715. aberg Posted: January 19, 2018 at 05:51 PM (#5609849)
ellenson


What is going on with Ellenson? He was a blue chip HS player, did well in his one year at Marquette, and had a lot of hype going into the draft. And yet, he just hasn't played in Detroit. He 146 minutes last year and 119 minutes this year. Wouldn't you want to at least get an idea of what you have?
   2716. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: January 19, 2018 at 05:52 PM (#5609850)
Why is Utah agreeing to that? They're taking on money and getting worse.

For that matter, why is Charlotte? Cody Zeller isn't overpaid, and they shouldn't need to take on Jerryd Bayless.

If Utah is willing to take on Batum, they'll keep Kemba, too.

CHA: zeller plays the same position as marvin williams and kaminski, plus they'll also have saric in this scenario. bayless is nothing.
UTA: what else are they giving up? rubio doesn't get it done. rubio and hood probably doesn't get it done. rubio, hood and favors? i'd guess the answer would still be no, but i could be wrong.
as for what they get out of this specific deal, they turn two 30+ year old role players, an expiring contract and a PG they don't want into a cheaper, better and younger PG, a solid replacement for favors/backup for gobert and a veteran wing who's decent and versatile, if also overpaid.
I know this wouldn't happen in season (and probably not at all), but wouldn't this trade be better for both teams?

MEM: IT, Love, Tristan, Nets pick
CLE: Conley, Gasol
gasol has slowed down a lot. he's not worth much more than a mid-#1.
conley is already 30 and he's currently injured.

   2717. aberg Posted: January 19, 2018 at 05:56 PM (#5609851)
Sources: In effort to bolster backcourt, Cleveland emerges as interested suitor for Sacramento's George Hill.


Assuming Rose doesn't come back and they don't want play Calderon? Or maybe they're trying to make sure Smith/Shumpert don't have to play? A big part of Cleveland's problem is that some of the role players who used to range from good to very good (Smith, Crowder, Shumpert, Korver) have been horrific. Smith is 2nd on the team in minutes and has a 7.5 PER.
   2718. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: January 19, 2018 at 05:57 PM (#5609852)
Haha what?
he'd be a good get for them. he can play on- or off-ball, he's a good defender and he spreads the floor. they could get him for shumpert and crowder.
   2719. tshipman Posted: January 19, 2018 at 06:03 PM (#5609854)
he'd be a good get for them. he can play on- or off-ball, he's a good defender and he spreads the floor. they could get him for shumpert and crowder.


He's not been a good defender on the Kings. He's an on-off minus on the KINGS. They're better with him off the court, mostly because the defense is so godawful with him out there.

Assuming Rose doesn't come back and they don't want play Calderon? Or maybe they're trying to make sure Smith/Shumpert don't have to play? A big part of Cleveland's problem is that some of the role players who used to range from good to very good (Smith, Crowder, Shumpert, Korver) have been horrific. Smith is 2nd on the team in minutes and has a 7.5 PER.


Yeah, I think the plan is to play Hill at the 2. However, while JR has been awful, Hill has been, too!
   2720. Laser Man Posted: January 19, 2018 at 06:14 PM (#5609857)
Assuming Rose doesn't come back and they don't want play Calderon?
Rose played yesterday and had 9 pts/3 rebs/1 asst/1 blk in 13 minutes.
   2721. aberg Posted: January 19, 2018 at 06:17 PM (#5609858)
He's not been a good defender on the Kings. He's an on-off minus on the KINGS. They're better with him off the court, mostly because the defense is so godawful with him out there.


Remember before the year how there was some positive momentum for the Kings? Hield closed out last year so well and Skal was showing potential. Hill, Vince, and Randolph both looked like useful vets to help teach the young guys with their on-court performance. Lots of people felt like they nailed the draft by getting Fox.

Now? They're 30th in offense and 29th in defense. Hield and Skal are playing worse than they did late last year. They're trying to find places to trade the vets. Fox has been bad (it's ok, he's only 20) and Giles is having a Process year.

In retrospect, the failure should not be surprising. The fact that we didn't see the failure coming is the surprise. Poor Kings.
   2722. aberg Posted: January 19, 2018 at 06:19 PM (#5609859)
Rose played yesterday and had 9 pts/3 rebs/1 asst/1 blk in 13 minutes.


Well look at that!

Not be by overly cynical, but I guess they'll just have to wait until his next injury in 1-2 weeks.
   2723. JJ1986 Posted: January 19, 2018 at 06:39 PM (#5609866)
I think Hill for just Shumpert and Frye helps the Cavs while only costing them money, but I wouldn't throw in any assets.
   2724. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: January 19, 2018 at 08:11 PM (#5609893)
What is going on with Ellenson? He was a blue chip HS player, did well in his one year at Marquette, and had a lot of hype going into the draft. And yet, he just hasn't played in Detroit. He 146 minutes last year and 119 minutes this year. Wouldn't you want to at least get an idea of what you have?


Detroit lurker chiming in, but think SVG just fears bad defense over anything. Plus, Anthony Tolliver has been pretty good (playing bench minutes limits this, but he's 21st on ESPN's PF RPM list).

He talked up Ellenson a ton in preseason, though, which surprised me. Then for him not to play is also a bit surprising after the happy talk. He has said that he doesn't want him to really play any center yet, which also limits his minutes.
   2725. Manny Coon Posted: January 19, 2018 at 10:13 PM (#5609929)
This combines a Walker trade with the rumors that Lebron wants DeAndre Jordan.

Trade machine, who says no:

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yaypcxsr

or one that doesn't involve Love or Lou

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y87zqvtg
   2726. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: January 19, 2018 at 10:22 PM (#5609932)
Washington is running out Wall/Beal/Oubre/Porter/Morris down the stretch. It's working.
   2727. PJ Martinez Posted: January 19, 2018 at 10:33 PM (#5609937)
Marc Stein, on Twitter: "There is a growing belief in league personnel circles that Utah could move swingman Rodney Hood before the Feb. 8 trade deadline ... with multiple teams expressing interest." (Zach Lowe says he's heard the same.)
   2728. stevegamer Posted: January 19, 2018 at 10:59 PM (#5609946)
3. Philadelphia--this would drastically improve this team. Would the Sixers ever say f-it and just offer Markelle Fultz straight up? Would the Bobcats accept?


I'd be willing to do that as the 76ers, but I'd prefer this:
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y876ynag

Fultz/Bayless for Walker/Stone; Stone is essentially just to make the salaries work, but he's a backup combo guard with some money owed for next year. Bayless isn't terrible, but he's very redundant if they get Walker. I don't consider Fultz redundant, as he's not playing right now, and Ithink he still has value, but it's down due to the injury. If he comes back and plays decently, that might facilitate this swap.
   2729. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: January 20, 2018 at 12:46 AM (#5609975)
Marc Stein, on Twitter: "There is a growing belief in league personnel circles that Utah could move swingman Rodney Hood before the Feb. 8 trade deadline ... with multiple teams expressing interest." (Zach Lowe says he's heard the same.)


Not really surprising. I think he could be really useful in something like a C.J. Miles role, and he can still get into the paint in isolation and shoot over smaller defenders pretty well. But he simply doesn't have the athleticism or handle to get to the line, he's not much of a playmaker, and is adequate as a defender. If any teams rate him higher than that the Jazz should try and get something decent from someone who wants to be able to match any offers.
   2730. JJ1986 Posted: January 20, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5610031)
If you're Cleveland and willing to take on Hill's 18-19 salary, why not try to get Wes Matthews instead?
   2731. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: January 20, 2018 at 01:17 PM (#5610047)
Hill was actually really good last year I would much rather bet on Hill playing well for a contender than Matthews.
   2732. tshipman Posted: January 20, 2018 at 02:38 PM (#5610095)
I for sure would rather have Rodney Hood than George Hill or Wes Matthews.
   2733. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: January 20, 2018 at 03:16 PM (#5610119)
Team Pythag Actual Diff |
|------+--------+--------+------|
GSW  36-10  37-9   | +1   |
TOR  34-10  31-13  | -3   |
HOU  33-10  31-12  | -2   |
BOS  32-14  34-12  | +2   |
OKC  29-16  25-20  | -4   |
SAN  30-17  30-17  |      |
MIN  30-17  29-18  | -1   |
WAS  26-20  26-20  |      |
POR  24-21  24-21  |      |
LAC  23-21  23-21  |      |
CLE  23-21  27-17  | +4   |
IND  24-22  24-22  |      |
PHI  22-19  21-20  | -1   |
DEN  24-22  23-23  | -1   |
DET  22-22  22-22  |      |
NOP  22-22  23-21  | +1   |
CHA  21-22  18-25  | -3   |
MIA  21-24  26-19  | +5   |
NYK  22-24  21-25  | -1   |
MIL  20-24  23-21  | +3   |
UTA  21-24  18-27  | -3   |
DAL  19-26  15-30  | -4   |
MEM  18-26  16-28  | -2   |
BKN  18-28  17-29  | -1   |
LAL  16-29  16-29  |      |
ATL  15-29  13-31  | -2   |
ORL  14-31  13-32  | -1   |
CHI  13-32  17-28  | +4   |
PHO  12-34  17-29  | +5   |
SAC  8-37   13-32  | +5   

source

That cluster of overperforming teams at the bottom of the standings is interesting. Is that just a coincidence*? Other teams playing down to the competition or resting players for easy matchups? Does pythag just handle really bad teams worse?

* It is probably just a coincidence.
   2734. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: January 20, 2018 at 05:29 PM (#5610196)
I for sure would rather have Rodney Hood than George Hill or Wes Matthews.


Sure. Hood should have positive trade value while the others have significant negative trade value. I'm not really sure what's a fair deal for Hood but I've seen guys like Fournier mentioned if Magic are trying to get out of his contract. Or something where the Jazz end up with Mirotic, Hood goes elsewhere, and a 1st round pick goes to the Bulls.
   2735. JC in DC Posted: January 20, 2018 at 06:16 PM (#5610219)
LBJ was just terrible today, as were most of his teammates, as they got wiped out by OKC. It's almost like the Cavs are sulking their way into moving guys. I think if I were GM I'd be very tempted NOT to go for it, but resign myself to LBJ's departure and begin selling assets for the future. Perhaps that's insane for obvious reasons (I'm not paying close attention to Cleveland), but I really see no way that he returns next year, and I wouldn't be duped into going for a last, almost certainly futile attempt against GS. I guess the only hope would be try to add guys and get a 2nd title at the expense of the future, hoping someone on GS gets hurt, but can you plan on that?
   2736. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: January 20, 2018 at 07:00 PM (#5610247)
Sure. Hood should have positive trade value while the others have significant negative trade value. I'm not really sure what's a fair deal for Hood but I've seen guys like Fournier mentioned if Magic are trying to get out of his contract. Or something where the Jazz end up with Mirotic, Hood goes elsewhere, and a 1st round pick goes to the Bulls.
hood's worth a late #1. that's about the going rate for any decent rotation player who comes with a decent contract.

LBJ was just terrible today, as were most of his teammates, as they got wiped out by OKC. It's almost like the Cavs are sulking their way into moving guys. I think if I were GM I'd be very tempted NOT to go for it, but resign myself to LBJ's departure and begin selling assets for the future. Perhaps that's insane for obvious reasons (I'm not paying close attention to Cleveland), but I really see no way that he returns next year, and I wouldn't be duped into going for a last, almost certainly futile attempt against GS. I guess the only hope would be try to add guys and get a 2nd title at the expense of the future, hoping someone on GS gets hurt, but can you plan on that?

the only "use it or lose it" assets they have are isaiah thomas and lebron. they can trade love, thompson, korver and crowder this summer, if it comes to that.
   2737. greenback slays lewks Posted: January 20, 2018 at 07:39 PM (#5610265)
Is Trae Young highly regarded? He takes enough shots that I half-expect Rany Jazayerli and Keith Woolner to write an article accusing Lon Kruger of being the next Dusty Baker.
   2738. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: January 20, 2018 at 07:43 PM (#5610271)
hood's worth a late #1. that's about the going rate for any decent rotation player who comes with a decent contract.


Yeah, that sounds about right. They probably won't find someone as good as Hood with that pick, but there's also a decent chance some team will offer Hood more than they should/would match.
   2739. PJ Martinez Posted: January 20, 2018 at 08:38 PM (#5610280)
Is Trae Young highly regarded?

He's generally expected go between no. 5 and no. 10 in the draft, I believe, maybe higher.

hood's worth a late #1.

If that's the case, shouldn't Cleveland trade their own first for him?
   2740. tshipman Posted: January 20, 2018 at 08:45 PM (#5610283)
LBJ was just terrible today, as were most of his teammates, as they got wiped out by OKC. It's almost like the Cavs are sulking their way into moving guys. I think if I were GM I'd be very tempted NOT to go for it, but resign myself to LBJ's departure and begin selling assets for the future. Perhaps that's insane for obvious reasons (I'm not paying close attention to Cleveland), but I really see no way that he returns next year, and I wouldn't be duped into going for a last, almost certainly futile attempt against GS. I guess the only hope would be try to add guys and get a 2nd title at the expense of the future, hoping someone on GS gets hurt, but can you plan on that?


My views on Cleveland haven't changed since the start of the year: they're old, awful on defense, and look to be headed to a playoffs flame-out.

I think when your roster is this bad from 3-9, you're not going to be saved by one or two trades. Like, say they shore up the 2 guard spot by trading for Rodney Hood. Their bench will still be awful.

Cleveland has had one of the easiest schedules in the league, and they have only outscored their opponents by 10 points all season. They won't blow it up, but they probably should.
   2741. JC in DC Posted: January 20, 2018 at 09:01 PM (#5610288)
Did you see the game? Frustration abounded. That locker room looks about to blow.
   2742. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 20, 2018 at 09:02 PM (#5610289)
The Lakers won at home against the Pacers today, their first win without Lonzo Ball. They shot 2-14 from the free throw line.

C'mon, man. really?
   2743. JJ1986 Posted: January 20, 2018 at 09:02 PM (#5610290)
Is Jaw Crowder just bad now? Injured? A terrible fit?
   2744. JC in DC Posted: January 20, 2018 at 09:42 PM (#5610296)
I don't know about Crowder, but the team defends so terribly that any interior defender will look bad, running from place to place. Their defense is awful. And they have no length, no young athleticism. Crowder compounds that problem. They don't need another thick legged 6'8" or so guy.
   2745. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: January 20, 2018 at 10:52 PM (#5610312)
Is Jaw Crowder just bad now? Injured? A terrible fit?

never. trade. with. danny. ainge.


trade machine: who says no?

CLE: dwight howard, nic batum, marvin williams
CHA: jr smith, tristian thompson, trevor booker, channing frye, cedi osman
PHI: jae crowder, derrick rose
   2746. sardonic Posted: January 20, 2018 at 11:02 PM (#5610315)
The Cavs don't look anywhere close to where they were the past couple seasons. If they were in the West I probably wouldn't pick them to even make the conference finals. That said, who is going to beat them in the East? Toronto? This is where Hayward's injury really looms large. Vegas has the Cavs at roughly even money to win the East. Feels about right.

The Ws looking like they ran out of gas at the end of the 4th against Houston, playing in the last game of a 5 game road trip. Only 17 points in the 4th. Still, that looks like it'd be a fun matchup in the playoffs.
   2747. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: January 20, 2018 at 11:06 PM (#5610316)
or alternatively...trade machine: who says no?

CHA: tristian thompson, iman shumpert, channing frye, cedi osman
CLE: dwight howard, nic batum
   2748. tshipman Posted: January 21, 2018 at 12:12 AM (#5610332)
LeBron on whether or not Ty Lue might be fired:

I would hope not, but really don’t know. I don’t know what’s going to happen with our team. I have no idea what conversations have been going on. I’ve been trying to stay as laser-sharp as I can to keep my guys ready to go out & play


Yikes.

***

Good win for Houston at home.
   2749. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: January 21, 2018 at 12:22 AM (#5610335)
The Cavs don't look anywhere close to where they were the past couple seasons. If they were in the West I probably wouldn't pick them to even make the conference finals. That said, who is going to beat them in the East? Toronto? This is where Hayward's injury really looms large. Vegas has the Cavs at roughly even money to win the East. Feels about right.
according to BKref, the sixers are the 3rd most likely team to win the east. they also have cleveland as a coin flip to get to the finals.
   2750. maccoach57 Posted: January 21, 2018 at 01:21 AM (#5610339)
Maybe James should just be a player-coach for Cleveland.
   2751. Just TFTIO Posted: January 21, 2018 at 11:37 AM (#5610381)
Nice game last night in Minnesota. I do think that people are sleeping a little on the Barneys; they look really well positioned to take advantage of the Cleveland dumpster fire.
   2752. JC in DC Posted: January 21, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5610384)
I assume tship's post means LBJ is the player coach.
   2753. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: January 21, 2018 at 12:09 PM (#5610391)
this might shock some of you, but i'm gonna talk about the sixers for a few minutes (conveniently, this is also the midpoint of their season):

the sixers are #4 in D rating
the sixers are #1 in net rebounds per 100 possessions
the sixers are #3 in assists per 100 possesssions
the sixers are last...by a mile...in turnover percentage
the sixers are 29th in FTAs per 100 possessions
the sixers have played the toughest schedule in the league
the sixers have won 7 of their last 8
the sixers are currently the 6 seed in the east.


in terms of expectations from before the season:
embiid - i'm greedy, so i'd actually say he's short of what i was hoping he'd be. he's not enough of a threat when he's not the focus of the offense. that's nitpicking, but if he gets a few more offensive rebounds, a few more made 3s off the catch, a few more dunks/layups out of the pick and roll, his offensive efficiency should take another jump. his defense is also a step or two down from the elite level i was hoping to see from him.

simmons - again, i'm greedy, so i'd say he falls just short of my expectations. i think he does too much probing when he's trying to create offense and he'd benefit if he just put his shoulder down and attacked the rim off the dribble more often. isolation sets aren't sexy, but it'd help stem the sixers turnover issues if simmons could take over a few possessions at a time.

saric - he's made some big improvements over last year, and he's already a very useful point forward. his shooting percentages are up, his turnover rate is down, his defense is better and he's crashing the offensive glass after a slow start. his usage% and TS% went from 17% and 48% in his first 17 games to 21% and 59% in his last 24 (while averaging 16, 7 and 3 on 47/36/90 shooting). he's putting up the same raw numbers as last year after embiid went down (18, 7 and 3 in 30 games), but he's doing it with lower usage (21% v. 28%) and better efficiency (59% TS v. 54% TS). if he can bump his usage back up to ~25% without losing efficiency and continue to improve defensively, that's an all-star level role player.

i will probably add more later.
   2754. Paul d mobile Posted: January 21, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5610411)
Speaking Of The barneys, yesterday was their last road game against a western conference opponent. They're also one of the teams with the fewest home games played to date, so I think it's possible that they keep winning at their current pace
   2755. PJ Martinez Posted: January 21, 2018 at 01:55 PM (#5610417)
the sixers have played the toughest schedule in the league

What's the best place to see these rankings? Is there any site that incorporates rest, etc., and not just opponent winning percentage? (The Sixers, who are indeed playing really well, have played the fewest games in the league, if I'm not mistaken.)
   2756. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: January 21, 2018 at 08:16 PM (#5610658)
Pistons :( :( :(

Maybe next decade they'll win a playoff game.
   2757. jmurph Posted: January 22, 2018 at 11:05 AM (#5610838)
embiid - i'm greedy, so i'd actually say he's short of what i was hoping he'd be. he's not enough of a threat when he's not the focus of the offense. that's nitpicking, but if he gets a few more offensive rebounds, a few more made 3s off the catch, a few more dunks/layups out of the pick and roll, his offensive efficiency should take another jump. his defense is also a step or two down from the elite level i was hoping to see from him.

When the Celtics play the Sixers I'm very happy when Embiid is taking long 2s and 3s. He's practically unstoppable in the paint and should be shooting way, way fewer jumpers.


simmons - again, i'm greedy, so i'd say he falls just short of my expectations.

I give you full credit for being so high on him this year when most of the rest of us were not. But things have really settled down over the last half of his games (err that's unclear, I mean 1st quarter of their season vs 2nd quarter of their season), and I think a lot of that has to do with everyone knowing he's not a credible threat to shoot. He's still a physical force but that is going to have to improve to reach his ceiling.
   2758. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: January 22, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5610880)
What's the best place to see these rankings? Is there any site that incorporates rest, etc., and not just opponent winning percentage? (The Sixers, who are indeed playing really well, have played the fewest games in the league, if I'm not mistaken.)
i was going by bkref, but this may be more in line with what you're looking for.
When the Celtics play the Sixers I'm very happy when Embiid is taking long 2s and 3s. He's practically unstoppable in the paint and should be shooting way, way fewer jumpers.

embiid playing at the 3P line has two main advantages: 1, it's easier on his body to take jump shots than it is to battle for position against desperate goons. and 2, it pulls his defender away from the rim, allowing simmons and saric to play out of the post and opening up the paint for cutters and dribble penetration.
I give you full credit for being so high on him this year when most of the rest of us were not. But things have really settled down over the last half of his games (err that's unclear, I mean 1st quarter of their season vs 2nd quarter of their season), and I think a lot of that has to do with everyone knowing he's not a credible threat to shoot. He's still a physical force but that is going to have to improve to reach his ceiling.
he missed a game in late november, so using that as the before/after split, he averaged 18/9/8, 25% usage, 17% turnover%, 53% true shooting in his first 17 games and 15/7/7, 23% usage, 22% turnover%, 53% true shooting in his most recent 24.

the sharp increase in turnovers stands out, but the rest of it is pretty comparable.
   2759. jmurph Posted: January 22, 2018 at 12:06 PM (#5610887)
Simmons games 1-21: 105 Ortg, 102 Drtg, 16.4 game score, 2.6 +/-, 17.9 ppg
Simmons games 22-41: 99 Ortg, 104 Drtg, 12.6 game score, -0.8 +/-, 15.2 ppg

I'm not saying it's a super dramatic downturn, I just think the offense has taken a hit.
   2760. tshipman Posted: January 22, 2018 at 12:16 PM (#5610893)
i was going by bkref, but this may be more in line with what you're looking for.


Eh, not really, IMO.

Strength of opponent is treated as a constant, when really, we should be adjusting for other factors as well. Road/Road B2Bs, for instance, particularly with a one time zone difference, are notably harder for a team to win in.

The most infamous example of the "schedule loss" is the game in Utah or Denver the day after playing in Los Angeles. You have players who are more tired already, playing at altitude, and with one hour of jet lag.

No one really accounts for this because there's this polite fiction in the NBA that teams try to win all games.
   2761. jmurph Posted: January 22, 2018 at 01:25 PM (#5610992)
I don't know what the context for this is- if it's Windhorst editorializing or reporting what he's heard (or if there's even a difference between those two things!)- but this is pretty weak:
ESPN Cleveland‏ @ESPNCleveland
Windy: "Right now, Isaiah is killing this team."
   2762. tshipman Posted: January 22, 2018 at 01:56 PM (#5611044)
I don't know what the context for this is- if it's Windhorst editorializing or reporting what he's heard (or if there's even a difference between those two things!)- but this is pretty weak:


It's Windhorst getting a narrative out there for the benefit of a source.

Although, I will say, it is fairly true. Isaiah is -19 in terms of +/- (Worse than Derrick Rose!).
   2763. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: January 22, 2018 at 02:05 PM (#5611050)
From way back in 2733:

CHI | 13-32 | 17-28 | +4 |


I can't speak for any of the other teams, but the Bulls have been 2 completely different teams this season. That 3-20 start when they were getting outscored by 10+ game, and the 15-8 they've been since then when they really should be closer to .500 (+20 total in those 23 games). So they seemed to be pretty unlucky (and legit terrible) early on, but have been lucky since enough so to more than make up for the bad luck early on.

They're probably a .500ish team in reality, but started so bad they may never actually get to .500 and they'll end up looking like they overperformed.
   2764. jmurph Posted: January 22, 2018 at 02:12 PM (#5611056)
It's Windhorst getting a narrative out there for the benefit of a source.

Although, I will say, it is fairly true. Isaiah is -19 in terms of +/- (Worse than Derrick Rose!).

Agree with your interpretation, and it's worth naming the source as LeBron or LeBron's people. So that's interesting information.

And yeah, he's obviously not been good yet (3-4 in games he's played since his debut, though they're also 0-2 in games he hasn't played since that time). I just think it's weak to blame this on the guy who just started playing, when they were already really unimpressive without him.
   2765. tshipman Posted: January 22, 2018 at 02:21 PM (#5611067)

Agree with your interpretation, and it's worth naming the source as LeBron or LeBron's people. So that's interesting information.



Actually, I don't think that's true. McMenamin is LeBron's guy. Windhorst is probably carrying water for Ty Lue or the front office.

And yeah, he's obviously not been good yet (3-4 in games he's played since his debut, though they're also 0-2 in games he hasn't played since that time). I just think it's weak to blame this on the guy who just started playing, when they were already really unimpressive without him.


Of course it's ridiculous to blame Isaiah. Isaiah didn't sign JR Smith and Shumpert to those deals, decide to not practice all year and not give a #### about defense. The Cavs problems have been evident for quite some time.

I know we all agree on this, but I did want to be fair and give Isaiah's actual stats.
   2766. jmurph Posted: January 22, 2018 at 02:25 PM (#5611070)
Actually, I don't think that's true. McMenamin is LeBron's guy. Windhorst is probably carrying water for Ty Lue or the front office.

He's covered him from Akron to Cleveland to Miami to Cleveland. I think it's fair to say they're both tied to LeBron.
   2767. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: January 22, 2018 at 02:56 PM (#5611094)
Of course it's ridiculous to blame Isaiah. Isaiah didn't sign JR Smith and Shumpert to those deals, decide to not practice all year and not give a #### about defense. The Cavs problems have been evident for quite some time.


Speaking of not practicing, I wonder if this is a big part of Crowder's problems? Maybe he is a system guy who needs to know his role, which Stevens was able to give him. AFAIK he's been healthy this year and even if you didn't expect him to match his Boston production this season is just strange.
   2768. jmurph Posted: January 22, 2018 at 03:22 PM (#5611140)
Speaking of not practicing, I wonder if this is a big part of Crowder's problems? Maybe he is a system guy who needs to know his role, which Stevens was able to give him. AFAIK he's been healthy this year and even if you didn't expect him to match his Boston production this season is just strange.

I've done this too so I'm not pointing fingers, but I'm just not sure how to parse all of the individual performances on Cleveland. I just think it's a mediocre team that also employs the best player on the planet. If LeBron is replaced by some middling SF, like Middleton or Gay or someone like that, this is a team that's probably battling for the 8th seed. Using BBRef's stats, two guys have been above average (LeBron and Love). 5 above replacement (VORP- and three of those are at 0.1, 0.1, and 0.3).
   2769. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: January 22, 2018 at 03:45 PM (#5611178)
I just think it's a mediocre team that also employs the best player on the planet. If LeBron is replaced by some middling SF, like Middleton or Gay or someone like that, this is a team that's probably battling for the 8th seed.


They also look like a bunch of guys who don't really have much in the playbook beyond "let LeBron create something" who are also frustrated with only having "let LeBron create something"; I suspect that in that scenario, several of the players would be performing a bit better. Not enough better to change the big picture, though: I just don't see a good defensive lineup in that roster that can also score. Great offensive lineups, sure, but history doesn't have a lot of examples of that workingh come playoff time without much better defense.
   2770. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: January 22, 2018 at 03:52 PM (#5611188)
Also, from poking around the pythag rankings, here are teams ordered by how much they're over/underperforming their expected record, based on efficiency differential:
MIA 5.1  |
CLE 4.2  |
SAC 3.9  |
PHX 3.6  |
BOS 3.5  |
MIL 3.3  |
CHI 2.1  |
SAS 1.7  |
POR 0.9  |
GSW 0.6  |
LAC 0.4  |
DET 0.3  |
MIN 0.2  |
WAS | -0.4 |
IND | -0.4 |
NYK | -0.5 |
PHI | -0.6 |
DEN | -0.6 |
TOR | -0.7 |
NOP | -1   |
HOU | -1.1 |
BKN | -1.3 |
ORL | -1.5 |
ATL | -1.7 |
LAL | -1.8 |
MEM | -2.4 |
UTA | -2.6 |
OKC | -2.8 |
CHA | -3.5 |
DAL | -5.3 

Source. Grabbed the numbers a couple days ago and forgot to post, so this snapshot is slightly out of date.
   2771. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: January 22, 2018 at 04:01 PM (#5611196)
Adrian Wojnarowski‏ @wojespn
Milwaukee has fired coach Jason Kidd, league sources tell ESPN.


Nobody had Kidd in the Wacky Predictions Pool either.
   2772. tshipman Posted: January 22, 2018 at 04:12 PM (#5611204)
Adrian Wojnarowski‏ @wojespn
Milwaukee has fired coach Jason Kidd, league sources tell ESPN.


Something tells me that the Bucks aren't going to get rooked any more.
   2773. aberg Posted: January 22, 2018 at 04:12 PM (#5611205)
Adrian Wojnarowski‏ @wojespn
Milwaukee has fired coach Jason Kidd, league sources tell ESPN.


Nobody had Kidd in the Wacky Predictions Pool either.


When I look at the standings, they are the team that seems furthest below where I think they should be. They are constantly out of position defensively and a lot of that goes back to Kidd. Bledsoe, Giannis, Middleton, Snell, Henson, Delly, and Brogdon are all solid defenders. They don't need to get that creative. They could probably win 45-50 games with a very straightforward approach.
   2774. JC in DC Posted: January 22, 2018 at 04:22 PM (#5611222)
I hear what you're saying, aberg, but OTOH, this is a very young team, with a very young star, and they seem quite prone to ups and downs to me. The issue, imo, is who they've got lined up to replace him. I'm no Kidd apologist, but I think he's not horrible. This has a good chance to backfire, I guess I'm saying. (You guys probably get the impression I'm a status quo guy, given my defense of Fizdale. I don't think Kidd is as good as Fizdale, but I do think status quo, in season, gets benefit of the doubt.)
   2775. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: January 22, 2018 at 04:30 PM (#5611232)
I've done this too so I'm not pointing fingers, but I'm just not sure how to parse all of the individual performances on Cleveland. I just think it's a mediocre team that also employs the best player on the planet. If LeBron is replaced by some middling SF, like Middleton or Gay or someone like that, this is a team that's probably battling for the 8th seed. Using BBRef's stats, two guys have been above average (LeBron and Love). 5 above replacement (VORP- and three of those are at 0.1, 0.1, and 0.3).


Crowder's performance is interesting enough to try to parse though, IMO. At his age, presumed health, and recent seasons you'd expect a much better performance and for his skillset to be a great fit next to Lebron. Instead his numbers are almost all below career averages (not just his last really good years in Boston). It very well could just be a random bad performance or something about Cleveland's team, but I'm also curious if it's bad fit on this style of team or that Ainge knew he was basically fool's gold. Players like Rose, Smith, Shumpert, etc. sucking aren't really that similar to me.
   2776. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: January 22, 2018 at 04:31 PM (#5611233)
has anyone brought up calipari, because if not, i'd like to be the first. if he can deliver cousins (and maybe a julius randle or a tyreke evans) this summer, that would vault MIL to the top of the conference.
   2777. aberg Posted: January 22, 2018 at 04:32 PM (#5611234)
I do think status quo, in season, gets benefit of the doubt


Yeah, I certainly don't think that's a crazy point of view. Another way of looking at is that "in season status quo" is probably the more risk averse approach, and Kidd as a coach is highly risk preferring. I get that the upheaval/new system issue is different from the contents of the system itself. At the same time, there's a healthy dose of riskiness in keeping Kidd, too- more so than there would be for someone like Fiz.
   2778. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: January 22, 2018 at 04:33 PM (#5611236)
I'm shocked the Bucks actually pulled the trigger. I wonder if there's something else going on there.
   2779. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: January 22, 2018 at 04:36 PM (#5611242)
I hear what you're saying, aberg, but OTOH, this is a very young team, with a very young star, and they seem quite prone to ups and downs to me. The issue, imo, is who they've got lined up to replace him. I'm no Kidd apologist, but I think he's not horrible. This has a good chance to backfire, I guess I'm saying. (You guys probably get the impression I'm a status quo guy, given my defense of Fizdale. I don't think Kidd is as good as Fizdale, but I do think status quo, in season, gets benefit of the doubt.)
i think there's a good chance kidd was the worst coach in the league. MIL has a terrible defense despite very good defensive personnel, and their offensive system is mostly just iso-giannis.

getting a real coach in there could pay huge dividends.
   2780. Tin Angel Posted: January 22, 2018 at 04:50 PM (#5611254)
Scott Skiles could make a triumphant return to Milwaukee.
   2781. aberg Posted: January 22, 2018 at 04:58 PM (#5611259)
Jay Larranaga, Ettore Messina, and James Borrego are potentially interesting assistants. In addition to Fizdale, you could do worse than Brian Shaw or McHale.
   2782. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: January 22, 2018 at 05:00 PM (#5611262)
For that matter, I bet David Blatt would do better the second time around.
   2783. PJ Martinez Posted: January 22, 2018 at 05:02 PM (#5611265)
"So @dannyLeroux and I were recording our first Stitcher Premium pod ranking coaches. Spent 15 mins on why Kidd ranked #30. Finish recording, check Twitter, and boom."
   2784. . . . . . . Posted: January 22, 2018 at 05:02 PM (#5611266)
Jay Larranaga

If he's half the coach his old man is, that'd be a hell of a hire for anyone.
   2785. JC in DC Posted: January 22, 2018 at 05:07 PM (#5611270)
Is the younger Larranaga Coach 4?
   2786. JJ1986 Posted: January 22, 2018 at 05:40 PM (#5611289)
has anyone brought up calipari, because if not, i'd like to be the first. if he can deliver cousins (and maybe a julius randle or a tyreke evans) this summer, that would vault MIL to the top of the conference.
Is he going to come with $40 million in capspace?
   2787. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: January 22, 2018 at 05:41 PM (#5611293)
I've only heard folks around the Celtics say glowing things about Jay Larranaga as a coach and a guy, but I think the best reason to give him a head coaching position is to give his insane, piercing crazy eyes a higher profile. I swear to god, that man never blinks.
   2788. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: January 22, 2018 at 05:52 PM (#5611309)
Is he going to come with $40 million in capspace?

no, but a sign and trade is feasible. MIL has the contracts and the assets to pull it off if cousins wants to go there and NOP isn't in a position to turn down free assets.
   2789. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: January 22, 2018 at 05:59 PM (#5611316)
So is this Cavs swoon different from the prior ones? It seems like every year the LeBrons underachieve in the regular season, but the East is just so bad at the top that it's hard to tell whether they care. I suppose one difference is that they're barely winning any games convincingly. In past years the LeBrons have won 25-30 games by double figures even while their overall record is less impressive than projected. To this point they have just 7 double-digit wins, tied for 10th-most in the East.

The second major difference is that they've been bad even with LeBron on the court. In prior years they've been at least +7 per 100 possessions with LeBron, while struggling otherwise; this year they're -1 with LeBron and outscoring opponents with their bench. Much of that stems from IT and Rose playing the vast majority of their woeful minutes with LeBron, plus the fact that there's really been no dropoff from spots 3 to 12 on the roster. I still think that either IT will figure it out or the Cavs will swing a trade so they're still the favorite when the playoffs roll around.

And yet I remain hopeful that one of the other top handful of teams in the East will make a big move to change the dynamic. Here's an idea I'll throw out there, in the proud Stiggles tradition:

PHI: Tyreke Evans, Marvin Williams, Dillon Brooks
MEM: Dario Saric, Justin Anderson, Jerryd Bayless
CHA: Richaun Holmes, Brandan Wright
[Trade Machine link]

Sixers get 3 guys who are great outside shooters, can switch on D, and don't turn the ball over. They need to fix the turnover problem to win in the playoffs--the gap between Philly and #29 in TOV% is the same as the gap between #29 and #7--and Simmons and Embiid need as much space as they can get. An interesting question is whether the Sixers should make a run at Kemba or go for the more attainable Tyreke to fill that coveted shot-creator plus floor-spacer role. I like Tyreke's fit a little bit better because it allows the Sixers to stay big on D. In my mind Saric is the odd man out of the Sixers' core. They have so much frontcourt playmaking as it is. His skills feel more redundant there than elsewhere.

Memphis gets the deal's best asset in Saric. Maybe he can provide for Memphis what they sought from a mythical healthy Chandler Parsons.

Charlotte saves a bunch of money both short- and long-term. Richaun Holmes remains a nice value as an explosive young big, and a rebuilding team doesn't need a 31-year-old 3&D guy owed almost $30M over the next 2 years.

   2790. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: January 22, 2018 at 06:47 PM (#5611334)
Here's an idea I'll throw out there, in the proud Stiggles tradition:

PHI: Tyreke Evans, Marvin Williams, Dillon Brooks
MEM: Dario Saric, Justin Anderson, Jerryd Bayless
CHA: Richaun Holmes, Brandan Wright
[Trade Machine link]

Sixers get 3 guys who are great outside shooters, can switch on D, and don't turn the ball over. They need to fix the turnover problem to win in the playoffs--the gap between Philly and #29 in TOV% is the same as the gap between #29 and #7--and Simmons and Embiid need as much space as they can get. An interesting question is whether the Sixers should make a run at Kemba or go for the more attainable Tyreke to fill that coveted shot-creator plus floor-spacer role. I like Tyreke's fit a little bit better because it allows the Sixers to stay big on D. In my mind Saric is the odd man out of the Sixers' core. They have so much frontcourt playmaking as it is. His skills feel more redundant there than elsewhere.

Memphis gets the deal's best asset in Saric. Maybe he can provide for Memphis what they sought from a mythical healthy Chandler Parsons.

Charlotte saves a bunch of money both short- and long-term. Richaun Holmes remains a nice value as an explosive young big, and a rebuilding team doesn't need a 31-year-old 3&D guy owed almost $30M over the next 2 years.

i'd be happy with that. it's not without some issues (tyreke evans is from philly and there may be some issues with him coming back; getting out from marvin williams' contract could be an unnecessary hiccup when the sixers push to sign lebron this summer; resigning tyreke is likely to be a mistake; i'm not sure that's enough value to justify parting with saric), but i've always been a tyreke fan, marvin williams is a good fit and brooks is another decent young shooting guard for the sixers to toss into the meatgrinder (along with fultz, anderson, luwawu, korkmaz, james young and many future draft picks).


i disagree about saric being an odd man out, though. i don't see him being limited by the success of embiid and simmons because he has a skillset that can thrive alongside them.
   2791. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: January 22, 2018 at 08:39 PM (#5611377)
i don't see him being limited by the success of embiid and simmons because he has a skillset that can thrive alongside them.


I was going to talk some trash about his 3pt% vis how those two need spacing, but he's up to 36%, putting him squarely in the 50th percentile. Given that his FT% is sitting just shy of 89%, I'm willing to project him as a good floor spacer going forward.
   2792. tshipman Posted: January 22, 2018 at 08:42 PM (#5611381)
Why would Memphis ever do that deal, where they pick up dead money like Jerryd Bayless when they can just deal Tyreke for a first?

Dario Saric is worth less than random first round pick. He's 24 and a below average starter.
   2793. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: January 22, 2018 at 08:53 PM (#5611386)
Dario Saric is worth less than random first round pick. He's 24 and a below average starter.


Serious question: how many second-year bigs are above average starters?
   2794. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: January 22, 2018 at 09:39 PM (#5611423)
Why would Memphis ever do that deal, where they pick up dead money like Jerryd Bayless when they can just deal Tyreke for a first?
MEM is going to draft in the top 5 both this year and next, so whether or not they have bayless's contract on the books means nothing to them.
I was going to talk some trash about his 3pt% vis how those two need spacing, but he's up to 36%, putting him squarely in the 50th percentile. Given that his FT% is sitting just shy of 89%, I'm willing to project him as a good floor spacer going forward.

saric shot 50/40/90 his last year in europe, and i think there's a good chance he'll get close to that level at some point in his NBA career.

one odd thing about saric is that he takes very few corner 3s, and he's not very good at making them. both of those things should be relatively easy to improve and doing so would boost his efficiency nicely.
Dario Saric is worth less than random first round pick. He's 24 and a below average starter.

24 is an oversell; the NBA lists his official age at 23 and he's 23 for another 3 months.
bkref has his BPM at +.8, with positive contributions both offensively and defensively.
he's still not playing close to his potential in terms of usage, efficiency or defense.

   2795. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: January 22, 2018 at 09:55 PM (#5611435)
Confession time. I love this Bulls team. Probably the most fun team since the dynasty. The Thibs Bulls were much much better, but never this much pure fun.
   2796. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: January 22, 2018 at 09:59 PM (#5611438)
Confession time. I love this Bulls team. Probably the most fun team since the dynasty. The Thibs Bulls were much much better, but never this much pure fun.
#processing
   2797. SteveF Posted: January 22, 2018 at 10:03 PM (#5611439)
he's still not playing close to his potential in terms of usage, efficiency or defense.

Then why do you keep trying to trade him all the damn time?
   2798. tshipman Posted: January 22, 2018 at 10:07 PM (#5611441)

Serious question: how many second-year bigs are above average starters?


Very few! but it doesn't matter. Dario Saric is 24 and has roughly a zero percent chance to be a star in this league.

A random first round pick, even if it comes in the 20's, has a shot to pick up a star. Kyle Kuzma this year, Clint Capela a few years ago.
   2799. JC in DC Posted: January 22, 2018 at 10:17 PM (#5611443)
The Windhurst stuff on Thomas just seems so mean-spirited, planted, and BS. The Cavs are frustrated with him? After 7 games? I'm no fan of the Bilbo Thomas, but he's not their problem.
   2800. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: January 22, 2018 at 10:20 PM (#5611444)
Since my post, bulls have blown their 16 point lead.
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