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Wednesday, October 11, 2017

OT - NBA 2017-2018 Tip-off Thread

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, some of whom still care about baseball playoffs, but all of whom agree the Celtics gave up too much for Irving.

Here’s the thread’s top 50 players ranking.

Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 11, 2017 at 11:21 AM | 1410 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   401. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 20, 2017 at 07:17 PM (#5559267)
Rudy Gobert could guard Embiid. DeAndre could maybe give it a go. Giannis might be able to slow him down some, at least until he fouled out early in the second quarter.

That's about it, really.
   402. PJ Martinez Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:03 PM (#5559276)
The league has gone a bit overboard with these shuffle-step traveling calls -- the ones they make when the ballhandler moves his feet slightly before dribbling. I thought they were already calling those plenty, but then were some reason it was made a "point of emphasis" this year. Why? Did anyone think failure to call that was hurting the game?
   403. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:04 PM (#5559277)
The league has gone a bit overboard with these shuffle-step traveling calls
Was this brought on by the Tatum traveling call? I thought it was very obvious.
   404. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:15 PM (#5559282)
Okay, I admit it. Simmons-Embiid-Saric is a very impressive group.
   405. PJ Martinez Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:16 PM (#5559284)
I wasn't crazy about that call, but more generally I've seen a bunch of those calls the first few games, and I just think: why? Why is a thing the league is worried about?
   406. tshipman Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:25 PM (#5559287)
I wasn't crazy about that call, but more generally I've seen a bunch of those calls the first few games, and I just think: why? Why is a thing the league is worried about?


1. The foot shuffle drives traditionalists crazy.
2. There's no real benefit to players to do it, it's just sloppiness (and perhaps crucially, they're not calling it on LeBron).
3. The NBA is close to an all-time peak in terms of popularity and wants to make its product look as good as possible.
   407. PJ Martinez Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:31 PM (#5559291)
3. The NBA is close to an all-time peak in terms of popularity and wants to make its product look as good as possible.

By interrupting the flow of the game to whistle a foul that most casual fans wouldn't even notice?

My guess is a combination of #1 plus some people are worried ballhandlers on the perimeter have too much of an advantage in the post-hand-checking era.
   408. tshipman Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:51 PM (#5559297)
By interrupting the flow of the game to whistle a foul that most casual fans wouldn't even notice?


They start off the season with the whistles, hope that guys adjust, and then stop calling it midway through the season.

At least that's been the pattern so far.
   409. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: October 20, 2017 at 08:51 PM (#5559298)
Rudy Gobert could guard Embiid. DeAndre could maybe give it a go. Giannis might be able to slow him down some, at least until he fouled out early in the second quarter.

That's about it, really.

when he's on, there's noone who can take away everything that embiid does. 7'2, range out past 25 feet, great hands, great feet, cromulent ball fondling. the best you can do is hope he stays on the perimeter and has trouble making shots. even then, he draws rim protection out of the paint and he's still an impact player on defense.

Was this brought on by the Tatum traveling call? I thought it was very obvious.
the traveling call on saric was egregiously awful.
Okay, I admit it. Simmons-Embiid-Saric is a very impressive group.
it's amusing how fultz is such an afterthought.
   410. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:00 PM (#5559304)
the traveling call on saric was egregiously awful.
Agree to disagree.
it's amusing how fultz is such an afterthought.
That's Fultz's own fault.
   411. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:08 PM (#5559316)
Agree to disagree.
i don't know if you're watching the sixers feed, but they showed a baseline shot and he never picked up his pivot. it wasn't a travel.
That's Fultz's own fault.
i don't disagree, but if he were on any other team, it wouldn't be so easy to look past him.
   412. PJ Martinez Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:12 PM (#5559319)
I disliked both the Tatum and the Saric travel calls.

Fultz had a nice spin move and dish to Embiid, but otherwise hasn't really made a mark on this game.
   413. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:36 PM (#5559330)
When do the Sixers start losing on purpose again?
   414. RJ in TO Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:40 PM (#5559335)
Cromulent ball fondling?
   415. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:49 PM (#5559354)
When do the Sixers start losing on purpose again?
give em until february.

this start is not gonna be pretty. the sixers are @TOR tomorrow night, then @DET, then HOU/@DAL/@HOU. 1-6, 0-7 are distinct possibilities.
   416. MHS Posted: October 20, 2017 at 09:56 PM (#5559357)
This is a game Philly should have won. This Celtics team is very undermanned right now and 3rd game in 4 days.

For stiggles sanity I hope it isn’t an indictment of things to come.
   417. CFBF Rides The Zombie Ice Dragon Posted: October 20, 2017 at 10:53 PM (#5559417)
Stiggles is sane?
   418. tshipman Posted: October 20, 2017 at 11:03 PM (#5559425)
Really enjoy Doris Burke as the color analyst on the Friday night ESPN game.
   419. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: October 20, 2017 at 11:58 PM (#5559458)
21 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists for Lonzo Ball tonight (through 3). I like it!
   420. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: October 21, 2017 at 12:18 AM (#5559464)
Suns gonna give up a lot of points this year, huh?
   421. cmd600 Posted: October 21, 2017 at 12:35 AM (#5559466)
21 points


On 27 shots, and the worst plus/minus of the Lakers starters. That's Irvingesque.
   422. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: October 21, 2017 at 12:40 AM (#5559467)
Honestly, how good could Milwaukee be? Right now, are they the team in the East most likely to knock off the Cavs?
   423. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: October 21, 2017 at 12:43 AM (#5559468)
29 points / 11 boards / 9 assists for Ball. 12 of 26 from the field (4 of 9 from 3).

Day. Um.
   424. MHS Posted: October 21, 2017 at 12:46 AM (#5559470)
422.. that might be right.
   425. cmd600 Posted: October 21, 2017 at 12:54 AM (#5559471)
The Wizards are the number two team in the East. Though I wouldn't be surprised if the Bucks find themselves with an impressive record. They also might be in a good position to add a piece through a trade if one becomes available.
   426. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: October 21, 2017 at 12:56 AM (#5559472)
Honestly, how good could Milwaukee be? Right now, are they the team in the East most likely to knock off the Cavs?
didn't they just lose to CLE by 20?

the only way to beat cleveland is to outscore them, and i think the only team in the east who has a chance to do that is WAS. they'd need wall to play out of his mind and beal and porter to go nuclear, so it's not likely, but i think they have the best shot until the sixers can mature.
This is a game Philly should have won. This Celtics team is very undermanned right now and 3rd game in 4 days.

For stiggles sanity I hope it isn’t an indictment of things to come.
it was the free throws again. it's just two games (and the refs tonight were terrible), but the sixers have given up 32 and 38 free throws against BOS and WAS, and only taken 16 and 19. a good place to start would be to stop fouling the damn jumpshooters.

it would also help if embiid played well and if the defense could play a complete game and if they could stop turning the damn ball over.
   427. cmd600 Posted: October 21, 2017 at 01:53 AM (#5559477)
didn't they just lose to CLE by 20?


When the Cavs hit >40% of their threes, very few teams can keep up. Maybe only Golden State.
   428. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 21, 2017 at 08:43 AM (#5559491)
Milwaukee's fatal problem, as pertains to being a genuine contender, can be neatly summarized in seven words: Matthew Dellavedova plays 25 minutes a game.

They're one more good backcourt player away. I thought they should have tried hard to get Ricky Rubio; no idea if they tried.
   429. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: October 21, 2017 at 10:23 AM (#5559501)
They need another above-average guard, no doubt, but Rubio can't shoot well enough to work optimally alongside Giannis. I love the guy but the fit just isn't there.

The Bucks' main problem is that any smart offense will pick them apart and get open 3s. They have a lot of individual plus defenders (Giannis, Middleton, Snell, Brogdon and Maker) but their scheme hasn't worked for two seasons and I haven't seen Kidd make any adjustments. It looks great at times when the opponent is more iso-heavy (like Wednesday against Kyrie) or when the open 3s don't go down, but I just don't think it's a strategy that can work consistently against good teams.
   430. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: October 21, 2017 at 10:40 AM (#5559508)
Spike Eskin‏ @SpikeEskin
Couple things to remember about Kyrie Irving the PG. Lebron

* made Mo Williams an all star
* got Delly paid
* won 2 rings with Chalmers
   431. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 21, 2017 at 11:10 AM (#5559510)
I 100% could be wrong about this, but I think Milwaukee needs a new and better coach to take the next step, too. Kidd's not bad, and maybe he deserves credit for working with Brogdon. But he's not an impact coach, especially when it comes to defensive scheme, and I don't think there's much reason at this point to think he's going to develop into one.
   432. tshipman Posted: October 21, 2017 at 01:12 PM (#5559536)
Re: Milwaukee:

They play a unique style of defense in a copycat league, so they look bad when it doesn't work. Not sure how they'd look in a Thibodeau-style ICE system.

RE: Coaches more generally:

Phoenix needs to fire Earl Watson. Booker is learning bad habits, and the team is atrocious.
   433. maccoach57 Posted: October 21, 2017 at 03:57 PM (#5559571)
he's not an impact coach,


When SVG took over in Detroit, Lowe said of coaches that that there are only about a "half-dozen guys who move the needle"--and that SVG was one of them. Has not really happened in Detroit, arguably.

As I have said a few times, I think the impact of coaching in the NBA is generally overstated, not because these guys don't know what they are doing, but because most of them do know what they are doing. So I think the edges gained among them by schemes etc. are usually small. Popovich is an exception; there are probably a few others. But the NBA is a talent league not a coaching league.

People made a huge deal out of replacing Byron Scott with Luke Walton and between that and Kobe Bryant finally hanging it up, I thought the Lakers would move up a few spots in DRTG. Didn't happen, and given the enormous amount of shitt that Scott took (much but not all of it warranted), I think that is a pretty good example.

Guys like Budenholzer, Vogel, Joerger and obviously Carlisle and Spoelstra know they are doing, but I just don't think it matters all that much unless they have the horses. YMMV.

So, if GA and the other key guys on Milwaukee respect Kidd and play hard for him, I would be much more focused on roster upgrades than on their defensive schemes.
   434. PJ Martinez Posted: October 21, 2017 at 04:04 PM (#5559575)
430: I'm a Kyrie skeptic, but that is a very silly take. Irving was a consensus No. 1 pick who put up a 21.4 PER at age 19. He is almost certainly overrated on a national level, but that was going to happen with or without LeBron, given his pedigree and his flashy scoring -- and his numbers didn't really improve much when LeBron joined him in Cleveland. LeBron makes role players look good, but really no previously established star (Wade, Bosh, Love) has ever put up better numbers with LeBron than they were putting up before (whatever improvement Irving has made seems age-related -- and also, thus far, a little underwhelming, given where he started from).

Insofar as playing with LeBron made it possible for people to describe Irving as a "winner" and a "champion," sure, he's benefitted from that. But he's been a star, in terms of reputation, since he stepped onto an NBA court.

And to second 433: Minnesota's poor defensive play since Thibs arrived supports that general thesis as well.
   435. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 21, 2017 at 04:21 PM (#5559577)
Kyrie's value is mostly tied up in one thing: that against practically any defense in the NBA, late in the game when you really really need two points, you can give him the ball and there's an excellent chance he'll get you the two (or three!) points.

Not very many players in the NBA are that caliber of scorer. Gordon Hayward isn't. Isaiah Thomas was last year, but there was no confident expectation he'd continue to be at that level going forward for very long (and as it turned out, with the severe hip injury last year might well have been it for him as an elite scorer). And I think it's a skill that plays up in the playoffs.
   436. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: October 21, 2017 at 06:51 PM (#5559639)
Kyrie's value is mostly tied up in one thing: that against practically any defense in the NBA, late in the game when you really really need two points, you can give him the ball and there's an excellent chance he'll get you the two (or three!) points. [SNIP] And I think it's a skill that plays up in the playoffs.
I would argue that it's a skill that plays up in every game of basketball, on every level. I'm not saying you should just have one guy try and do everything, but having one guy who you can point at the basket like a guided missile really opens things up for the other four guys on the floor. A great volume scorer is the single deadliest weapon a basketball team can have. Kyrie's not quite elite in that way, and a lot of that has to do with size, but he's not far off, either.
   437. tshipman Posted: October 21, 2017 at 08:20 PM (#5559709)
I would argue that it's a skill that plays up in every game of basketball, on every level. I'm not saying you should just have one guy try and do everything, but having one guy who you can point at the basket like a guided missile really opens things up for the other four guys on the floor. A great volume scorer is the single deadliest weapon a basketball team can have. Kyrie's not quite elite in that way, and a lot of that has to do with size, but he's not far off, either.


Well, maybe, right?

I mean, this was the reason why elite bigs were historically the most valuable guys on the court. Wilt/Kareem/Shaq were both efficient and high volume. So you could dump it into Kareem every time down the court for 1.05 PPP, basically. That meant you were almost certain to have a good offense. They also typically would be great rebounders, which would mean were you more likely to have a good defense, too.

I would argue that this basically didn't change until they removed the illegal defense rules. Even in the Jordan era, big men were favored. Jordan succeeded despite this, which is why people call him the GOAT. However, Jordan also benefited from the rules at this time because Jordan realized that guards could also go into the post for high volume scoring.

However, with the weak side zone, it's much, much harder to use high volume bigs. The removal of the handcheck stuff incentivized PnR, so now you have to be able to contest on the perimeter. You also have to deal with way more double-teams. This also affects wings and guards, of course.

So now the most valuable players are those who can exist in a motion offense system and can shoot the three. LeBron of course is a motion offense all on his own, and is so talented that the rules don't apply to him. But every other player is better in a motion offense with spacing and shooting. I'm not sure that getting off a 45% shot no matter what is as valuable as it used to be. Certainly now, it's more valuable to be able to get off a 3per off the dribble. Even if you only make 33% of your OTD 3's, you score at a higher rate than a 45% post player.

   438. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: October 21, 2017 at 09:17 PM (#5559768)
A great volume scorer is the single deadliest weapon a basketball team can have. Kyrie's not quite elite in that way, and a lot of that has to do with size, but he's not far off, either.

Never thought this day would come where I'm defending Kyrie, but...in what way(s) is he NOT an elite volume scorer?
   439. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: October 21, 2017 at 09:55 PM (#5559820)
No post game. That's what I mean by his size being a factor. In this day an age when even big men possess more varied skills, I would argue that a truly elite scorer has a wider repertoire of offensive options. I'm sure people will disagree; I'm okay with that.
   440. jmurph Posted: October 21, 2017 at 10:05 PM (#5559833)
Lot of weird scores out there tonight. Magic up 27 in Cleveland, obviously. LeBron currently -31! Also, why is he still in?

   441. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: October 21, 2017 at 11:07 PM (#5559935)
If Giannis could shoot at all he would be far and away the best player in the NBA. As is he might be that anyway.
   442. PJ Martinez Posted: October 21, 2017 at 11:38 PM (#5559997)
Averaging 38, 10, and 5 through three games.
   443. smileyy Posted: October 21, 2017 at 11:54 PM (#5560012)
Giannis!
   444. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: October 22, 2017 at 12:07 AM (#5560020)
Lot of weird scores out there tonight. Magic up 27 in Cleveland, obviously.

Second game of a back to back, with the first game being a road game. Schedule probably played some role in the loss.

Golden State lost as well. Surprising.
   445. stevegamer Posted: October 22, 2017 at 01:16 AM (#5560035)
430: I'm a Kyrie skeptic, but that is a very silly take.


It's a Spike Eskin take, which is a hot take from a not overly bright guy who got his job in sports radio through nepotism. The family is notorious for overestimating their knowledge & skills.

I've been in a fantasy basketball league with one of them in the late 1980's (not Spike) well before that sort of thing became anything remotely like a phenomenon. It's was a prize from a sports radio call-in show, and the only one of us who didn't win their way in, was of course, the Eskin relative.
   446. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: October 22, 2017 at 01:50 AM (#5560040)
(Note: I'm an extremely casual fan)

This Tobias Harris fella on the Pistons....is he a guy I should know? I'm watching his highlight clips, and he seems to have the silkiest jump shot this side of Stephen Curry, but he can also throw down huge dunks and shake defenders out of their shoes. Is he really a star, or is this the sort of thing where everyone will look great when you cut all their missed shots out of the video?
   447. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: October 22, 2017 at 01:58 AM (#5560041)
Suns fans expected to lose a lot this season. #TheTimeline and all that.

But they did didn't expect to lose a lot this badly.
   448. puck Posted: October 22, 2017 at 02:11 AM (#5560042)
Did not watch as I had the ALCS on, but weird stat line for Jokic. 0 pts on 0-3 shooting, 7 assists, 9 rebounds.
   449. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: October 22, 2017 at 07:53 AM (#5560049)
This Tobias Harris fella on the Pistons....is he a guy I should know? I'm watching his highlight clips, and he seems to have the silkiest jump shot this side of Stephen Curry, but he can also throw down huge dunks and shake defenders out of their shoes. Is he really a star, or is this the sort of thing where everyone will look great when you cut all their missed shots out of the video?


OMG a Pistons comment.

Tobias can do a little of everything on offense. Post up smaller guys, drive by bigger guys, etc. Last year, he put up 57% true shooting on like 22% usage. That doesn't sound exciting but I was pretty impressed because the rest of the roster crashed and burned and he somehow improved.

We'll see if he can be more than that, but he's still young-ish and has improved every year. His jumper looks better this year, which would be amazing and could take him from good-ish to great-ish, but it's real early and could just be sample size. Also up to the Pistons if they want to give him the ball or not, and also not sure if he can handle higher usage. He only took 10 shots against the Wizards on Friday, but then seemed to become the focus again last night.

Oh, and other Pistons note, Andre Drummond went 16-20 on FT in preseason, and is 6-6 so far. I don't get it.
   450. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: October 22, 2017 at 09:34 AM (#5560060)
I'm probably Harris' biggest fan. Pretty sure I compared him to Melo on this thread when it was his draft year. Really excited with the way he's started the year because I think he's a guy that, for whatever reason, people have tended to focus on his shortcomings rather than what he can do.

EDIT: The Drummond FT improvement is startling. Looks like he's sped everything up to remove all thinking (limit the mental piece of his troubles).
   451. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: October 22, 2017 at 12:26 PM (#5560107)
Kyle Neubeck @KyleNeubeck
The fact that Fultz didn't even consider shooting this would have boggled my mind if you showed it to me 6 months ago. pic.twitter.com/Y3JQ12Zn5T
   452. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 22, 2017 at 05:49 PM (#5560182)
Eric Bledsoe ✔ @EBled2
I Dont wanna be here


I dunno, maybe he was stuck in a long line at the DMV?

John Gambadoro ✔ @Gambo987
Hearing that Suns owner Robert Sarver is going to meet with Earl Watson today.


...oh.
   453. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 22, 2017 at 05:57 PM (#5560185)
And about the same moment I posted that, Woj reported Watson's gone.

Phoenix is a badly dysfunctional organization that unfortunately seems to be in the Can't Fire The Owner bin.
   454. tshipman Posted: October 22, 2017 at 07:11 PM (#5560198)
YES! I win the fire the coach question.
   455. jmurph Posted: October 22, 2017 at 09:20 PM (#5560221)
I don't know if Earl Watson is a good coach but I'm pretty sure the Suns don't either. This is a team that hasn't made the playoffs since 2009-10, and doesn't look likely to end that streak anytime soon. It's odd to me that they aren't placed among New York, Brooklyn, Orlando, Sacramento, and the other terribly run franchises, because they're right there.
   456. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 22, 2017 at 09:30 PM (#5560223)
Is ownership an active cancer in Orlando the way it is in Phoenix, New York and Sacramento?

Someone tweeted, I think in jest or half-jest, that Sarver probably waited until after the season started to fire Watson so he'd have an excuse to promote an assistant and thus pay as little as possible for his next head coach. It wouldn't surprise me at all if that were actually true.

Next step for the Suns: Giving Eric Bledsoe away. You just know they're going to #### this up. Who's going to cash in on the freebie? The Clippers? The Cavs?
   457. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: October 22, 2017 at 09:31 PM (#5560224)
Hell of an ending for MIN-OKC. Did not watch the entire game, but Wiggins looked good in the the part of the fourth that I saw. Looked like he was doing a much better job creating off the dribble and reading defenses.
   458. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 22, 2017 at 09:34 PM (#5560226)
Andrew Wiggins would instantly be a star if he would do one thing, just one thing: STOP JACKING MIDRANGE JUMPERS. Just stop, dude! Go to the hoop, shoot the open three, pass out if they double you. That's all you have to do! Wiggins shoots a ton, of course, but he has to lead the league in chucking contested 19 footers with 16 seconds left on the shot clock.

If he could somehow be convinced to give a #### on defense he could be a superduperstar, but that's probably too much to wish for.
   459. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: October 22, 2017 at 09:41 PM (#5560227)
[458] That turnaround with under 2 left was particularly awful.
   460. TFTIO sings Medieval Agrarian History Posted: October 22, 2017 at 09:50 PM (#5560229)
Looks like I picked a crappy night to do work instead of watching the Wolves.
   461. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: October 22, 2017 at 10:32 PM (#5560230)
I'm glad I've moved from Arizona and no longer feel the need to care about the Suns.
   462. jmurph Posted: October 23, 2017 at 10:13 AM (#5560302)
Looking at tonight's schedule, Washington at Denver looks like it should be fun. Raptors-Spurs should be good, too, though I'm not sure I'd use the word "fun" to describe either team.
   463. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 23, 2017 at 11:36 AM (#5560334)
Looks like I picked a crappy night to do work instead of watching the Wolves.


Just watched the recap on NBA TV. What a game.
   464. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: October 23, 2017 at 11:41 AM (#5560341)
lonzo ball: 13, 9 and 9
ben simmons: 16, 10 and 6
mark l fultz: 7, 2, 1

   465. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:06 PM (#5560360)
It's probably too early for many trades, but some contending teams should be thinking about trading for Robin Lopez, no?

EDIT: Markkanen 15, 10, and 0
   466. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:57 PM (#5560400)
Next step for the Suns: Giving Eric Bledsoe away. You just know they're going to #### this up. Who's going to cash in on the freebie? The Clippers? The Cavs?

I'd like to see him on the Bucks. Who says no to this trade (Jabari Parker, Greg Monroe, and Delly for Bledsoe, Tyson Chandler, and Troy Daniels)? Jabari's still young with upside, Monroe's on an expiring contract & won't mind putting up numbers on a bad team this year, and Delly is Delly. Tyson Chandler and Troy Daniels are guys the Suns would likely give away for free but who can be useful on a winning team.
   467. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:10 PM (#5560417)
YES! I win the fire the coach question.


And you were the only one to pick Watson out of 15. Nice work!
   468. JJ1986 Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:46 PM (#5560440)
I think the Bucks probably value Parker higher than that. I'd guess their offer would be younger guys (Maybe Brown or Wilson), salary (Delly, Teletovic, probably not Henson) and draft picks. I like that fit, or Bledsoe back to the Clippers or maybe Denver.
   469. jmurph Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:55 PM (#5560447)
mark l fultz: 7, 2, 1

This Fultz thing is the most bizarre NBA subplot I can remember, at least related to actual basketball. What the hell is going on? I don't think I buy the injury thing- if he were hurt, surely he wouldn't be playing? He's obviously not contributing in any positive way as is, so that would make no sense. I've literally never heard of "well, just totally change your shooting style temporarily while things heal" as a viable strategy for anything.
   470. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:58 PM (#5560450)
Hot take, Fultz is 19, injury prone, immature, and the downside of the one-and-done rule is that it's possible Fultz just had his career year last year. (And missed almost half of it hurt.)

I'm curious what his trade value is. How much would Philly have to add to get Bledsoe for him?
   471. jmurph Posted: October 23, 2017 at 02:05 PM (#5560454)
I've only seen Fultz play briefly in the summer league and briefly in the preseason and regular season NBA games, so I don't even really have an opinion of his value or abilities. I just don't understand what is happening and am wondering if he has the yips, frankly, rather than the injury story that we're hearing. Because that just makes no sense at all, unless Philadelphia is absolutely incompetent.
   472. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 23, 2017 at 02:16 PM (#5560457)
There is no way Fultz's trade value has slipped that far yet.
   473. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 23, 2017 at 02:29 PM (#5560465)
ABC15 Sports @abc15sports 20m20 minutes ago

McDonough RE: Bledsoe's tweet: "He said he was at a hair salon... I didn't believe that to be true. He won't be with us going forward."


Also, the Suns will not be getting an equivalent return in this deal.
   474. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: October 23, 2017 at 02:29 PM (#5560466)
Chris Haynes @ChrisBHaynes
ESPN Sources: Eric Bledsoe met with team this morning before shootaround and he was sent home. He will not play tonight against Sacramento.

Sources: Suns engaged in trade talks w/ several teams on Bledsoe. Phoenix soliciting offers with expectation he’s on move elsewhere. https://t.co/mj4raCATlp
— Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn) October 23, 2017
   475. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:06 PM (#5560482)
Sorry, I thought it would be obvious I was just tweaking STIGGLES there.
   476. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:10 PM (#5560487)
I think the Bucks probably value Parker higher than that.


I'm not sure about that. Jabari and Middleton are pretty similar players, right? Especially with Hayward's injury, I could see them cutting bait on an injured guy and taking a shot at a Top-4 seed this year. If they can get a good player with Jabari as the centerpiece, they should do it.
   477. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:40 PM (#5560508)
lonzo ball: 13, 9 and 9
ben simmons: 16, 10 and 6
mark l fultz: 7, 2, 1


Jayson Tatum: 15, 8, and 0


I have to say, while I still would have preferred Ball, Tatum has exceeded my expectations so far.
   478. jmurph Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:51 PM (#5560518)
Tatum has exceeded my expectations so far.

Yeah, granting that we still know barely anything about these guys, I've seen enough that I can imagine him being a pretty consistent scorer as he develops. I don't know if it's good or bad that he's being thrown right into it, but it's definitely happening.
   479. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: October 23, 2017 at 04:00 PM (#5560531)
I'm not sure about that. Jabari and Middleton are pretty similar players, right?

No. Jabari is a 3-4 tweener that scores at a high rate with solid efficiency and doesn't do much else.

Middleton is more of a jack of all trades, but a pretty traditional SG. Good shooter, good defender, good passer from the SG position. And not quite as prolific a scorer as Jabari is/could be.
   480. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: October 23, 2017 at 04:05 PM (#5560533)
Man, just imagine how bad the Suns will be *without* Bledsoe. The Suns look likely to do their part to make sure the 3 worst teams have less combined wins than Golden State.
   481. jmurph Posted: October 23, 2017 at 04:15 PM (#5560547)
Michael Scotto of Basketball Insiders (Twitter link) hears that the Knicks have indeed contacted the Suns about a Bledsoe deal and Phoenix wants No. 8 overall pick Frank Ntilikina and Willy Hernangomez in exchange for the veteran point guard.

(from Hoops Rumors)

I can't imagine Phoenix has any kind of leverage to get that kind of return.
   482. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 23, 2017 at 04:24 PM (#5560554)
No. Jabari is a 3-4 tweener that scores at a high rate with solid efficiency and doesn't do much else.


Looking at their shot charts, Jabari is much more of an inside-the-arc player than Middleton, too (only 12% of shots from deep, about 1/3 for Middleton). Nate Duncan mentioned Jabari's skill as an off-the-ball cutter. But if I'm Milwaukee, I would definitely trade him for a Bledsoe-level player.
   483. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: October 23, 2017 at 06:23 PM (#5560670)
I can't imagine Phoenix has any kind of leverage to get that kind of return.


I'm just assuming that every team in the league has incriminating Weinstein-like evidence on Dolan at this point.
   484. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: October 23, 2017 at 07:53 PM (#5560688)
it's about damn time.
   485. Tin Angel Posted: October 23, 2017 at 08:27 PM (#5560694)
I always get Eric Bledsoe confused with Eric Gordon.
   486. Jtsports01 Posted: October 23, 2017 at 09:28 PM (#5560706)
Simmons defense was pretty impressive from what I saw tonight
   487. Nero Wolfe, Indeed Posted: October 23, 2017 at 09:28 PM (#5560707)
What exactly is it about Eric Bledsoe that would make anyone want him, other than perhaps a backup PG? Just looking at his stats; this should be no one's idea of a player worth any type of 1st round pick.
   488. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: October 23, 2017 at 09:32 PM (#5560709)
sixers took care of business. wasn't easy and wasn't pretty, but they got it done. embiid put up 30 on 11/15 shooting; simmons put up 21, 12 and 10; noone else did much offensively, but the team rebounded well, held DET to 39% from the field and kept them away from the FT line.


   489. PJ Martinez Posted: October 23, 2017 at 09:57 PM (#5560713)
Zach Lowe on Twitter: "Ben Simmons is reeeeaaallllly good, even beyond the obvious stuff. Under control on defense, good balance/footwork when engaged."
   490. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: October 23, 2017 at 10:10 PM (#5560716)
I've always been a big Bledsoe fan. I feel like he's pretty firmly entrenched in the 10-15 group of best NBA PGs. That's worth something.
   491. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: October 23, 2017 at 10:51 PM (#5560731)
The Bucks should probably trade Jabari-- he plays the same positions as their two best players*, isn't nearly as good as them, and is about to get expensive-- but they probably won't. If they do, I don't think Bledsoe's enough of an upgrade for them to include him.

*Khris is better at the 3 these days, he seems to have lost a little speed after coming back from the hamstring tear.
   492. tshipman Posted: October 23, 2017 at 11:08 PM (#5560734)
I've always been a big Bledsoe fan. I feel like he's pretty firmly entrenched in the 10-15 group of best NBA PGs. That's worth something.


This. At least when he gave a crap, Bledsoe was a good 2 way player, which is pretty rare at PG. Any team that gets him will have to figure out if this mess in Phoenix has broken him, but there's real upside.

Jabari for Bledsoe is a good buy-low deal for both teams. Could also see a deal with the Nuggets around Mudiay.
   493. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: October 23, 2017 at 11:34 PM (#5560739)
Zach Lowe on Twitter: "Ben Simmons is reeeeaaallllly good, even beyond the obvious stuff. Under control on defense, good balance/footwork when engaged."

something else to keep an eye on: simmons is already defending 1-5. he mostly stays at PF, but he started tonight's 2nd half at PG and he's played some 5 in lineups without a big.

he's not going to be a draymond or kawhi caliber defender, but his positional versatility can allow the sixers to dictate who defends him on the other end of the floor. hopefully the sixers will be more willing to use that as a weapon than every team that's had lebron.
   494. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: October 24, 2017 at 12:16 AM (#5560745)
Jabari is tough because the team has really marketed him a lot, but I'm not sure he's a great fit with their current starting lineup. Now, that said he flashed good shooting potential in college and I think can develop a good NBA 3 shot. They also really need scoring, and he gives them that - when he's healthy. That said, he's another injury or just a weak start from really having no value. And I don't know that you really know what you're getting with him yet.

I also am a Bledsoe fan as he does a bit of a lot of things, has a skillset that can play off a ball dominant wing (which many of the best teams have). And I agree with NJ - a solid starting PG doesn't seem like much if you're a team with a top PG, but I'll tell you this as a Spurs fan. I'd ####### love for them to have Bledsoe. I'm skeptical there's any kind of deal there to be worked out, but guys that can hold their own at PG are really valuable if you don't have one. Like a QB, really.

It does seem like he may have stagnated some, but there's not much talent around him. Man, like 3-4 years ago when they had him, Dragic, the Morris twins, they really seemed to have a lot of young talent and a bunch of flexibility. It fell apart in about the worst way imaginable.
   495. tshipman Posted: October 24, 2017 at 12:25 AM (#5560747)
Jabari is tough because the team has really marketed him a lot, but I'm not sure he's a great fit with their current starting lineup.


I'm just not sure Jabari is a good player. He reminds me a lot of Wiggins. Like, are either of them really good players in today's NBA? They don't fit as the ball handler, roll man OR spacer. They're not good defenders on the interior or the perimeter.

They can score 2s at a reasonable, but not amazing rate ... like what is the theory of how these guys are one of the top three guys on a championship team?
   496. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: October 24, 2017 at 12:29 AM (#5560748)
SUNS WIN!
   497. JC in DC Posted: October 24, 2017 at 07:24 AM (#5560764)
Embiid might be the best thing to happen to the NBA since sliced (corn)bread (Maxwell).
   498. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: October 24, 2017 at 08:19 AM (#5560768)
[495] Jabari has a pretty clear route to Top 3 on a championship team by being an elite stretch 4. And Wiggins can get there if/when he starts defending and if he continues to make some gains on offense. No guarantee that any of these things happen, but as disappointing as these guys may have been thus far (Whether for injury or performance) there path seems clear/possible to me.

[497] Yes.
   499. TFTIO sings Medieval Agrarian History Posted: October 24, 2017 at 08:43 AM (#5560775)
[497] Yes, but. I have my heart in my throat every time I watch him because I'm terrified that his foot is going to explode all over the court.
   500. TFTIO sings Medieval Agrarian History Posted: October 24, 2017 at 08:48 AM (#5560778)
[497] Although, also, Giannis.
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