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Monday, July 02, 2012

OT: NBA basketball July Thread 2012

I estimate that only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what the site is really about: Jim Furtado trolling his own site when he’s bored.

Tripon Posted: July 02, 2012 at 04:21 PM | 2487 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball

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   101. billyshears Posted: July 03, 2012 at 02:51 PM (#4172374)
I guess I assumed it was one or the other. That's why I asked about where else would Lin go in my next post.


I think the Knicks goal is to sign both Nash and Lin. I know we're seeing all sorts of stories about how the Knicks could let Lin go if somebody signs him to a "poison pill" contract, but I don't see it. He's just too valuable on and off the court and the best thing I can say about the Knicks is that they haven't lost a player due to an unwillingness to spend money in forever.
   102. baudib Posted: July 03, 2012 at 02:52 PM (#4172377)
I'll second what Joel W said. I'm a Sixers fan who lived most of my life in New Jersey and never gave a rat's ass about the Nets. I've lived in New York for a few years now and don't give a rat's ass about the Knicks, although Linsanity was fun for a bit. But I'm going to buy Nets tickets, and probably root for them reasonably hard.

If they somehow pull Howard out of this hat, I think it'll be hysterical, and awesome. I don't think they can beat Miami and maybe not even Boston, but coming into Brooklyn and winning 50+ games is a pretty reasonable and worthy goal.

   103. Joel W Posted: July 03, 2012 at 02:55 PM (#4172380)
Celtics are claiming they also want Ray, but I don't see it. Avery Bradley + anybody is a great back court defensively. Regardless, the Celtics are exactly the sort of team that can cover for deficiencies of their perimeter players on the defensive end. To be honest, I hope the team goes in a slightly different direction offensively, and Terry is the sort of player who can help them do that. Namely, the Celtics need to be less concerned with pretty sets for open long-2s and 3s, and more concerned with getting to the hoop. I know Terry is an outside shooter, but he's not the same sort of guy that needs to run around a bunch of screens like Ray.
   104. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 03, 2012 at 02:55 PM (#4172384)
   105. rr Posted: July 03, 2012 at 02:57 PM (#4172389)
but for Orlando?


Well, as discussed, nothing in this scenario if Howard is still Howard after the back surgery (and I am skeptical about that--obviously he will play again and be good, but I will not be at all surprised if he is not quite what he was before--I know some people thimk the back injury was a wink/wink thing; I am assuming it is not) really "makes sense" for Orlando. The best option to me a good big guy, like Bynum, Lopez, or Horford, as many picks as possible, and seeing if the trading partner will and can take on Turkoglu.

   106. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: July 03, 2012 at 03:04 PM (#4172396)
Marc Stein is saying Terry's deal is 3yr, for the MLE. But that he's going to give Dallas a chance to match. He also says Lin will be meeting with the Rockets (not sure they can make another poison pill deal - or even one that would cause the Knicks to blink).
   107. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 03, 2012 at 03:05 PM (#4172398)
Not yet a done deal, but Jason Terry to BOS looks likely. Thoughts?

If they want a guy like him to be a sixth man, with Bradley starting, I like Terry better. Allen didn't like that role in Boston last year (though he'd obviously be coming off the bench in Miami), while Terry seems to relish it.

Reporting is that it's for 3 yr/$20 mil, which seems expensive.

That's INSANE. It's obviously a Nash ploy, but that's a TON of money for a guy who is, what, a 9th or 10th man, maybe?
   108. billyshears Posted: July 03, 2012 at 03:05 PM (#4172399)
I'll continue this last post in response to the Knicks folks: I think there is really not much chance of the Nets becoming the Islanders. People are really excited about the Nets in Brooklyn, they're everywhere. I'm a Celtics fan, and will always be one, but this is the first team I'll ever own season tickets for, and I know a bunch of people who bought them also, people who were diehard Knicks fans. They're not the Islanders and they're not New Jersey because 5 million people are a subway ride away, not a train out to Long Island. Brooklyn itself is in the top 5 most populous cities in the country. Also, the Nets are not owned by James Dolan. This has value. With Pokhorov I think people think they've made dumb moves, but it can't be worse than Dolan.

All in, I think becoming the Mets won't be particularly hard. Becoming the Jets is the real goal I think.


I guess it's just who you know, but I don't know one person who is terribly excited about the Nets coming to Brooklyn or one Knicks fan who is considering changing their allegience. I don't doubt that the Nets will attract their share of Brooklynites who want to express borough pride or transplants looking to bandwagon jump like baudib (not that this is a bad thing), but I just can't see them encroaching on the Knicks market unless they become really good, really quickly. If they don't, they're going to have to expand the pie in a significant way, which is a hard thing to do. I don't think they will be unsuccessful - the location is just too good. But I do think they end up as the clear #2 team in town, rather than #1A.

Also, I think you're dramatically underestimating how successful the Mets are as a franchise.
   109. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 03, 2012 at 03:09 PM (#4172406)
Also, I think you're dramatically underestimating how successful the Mets are as a franchise.

I don't think the Mets are a relevant comparison anyway. You had three teams in NYC for the longest time, two in the National League, and suddenly they were taken away, leaving a void for non-Yankee fans which the Mets were able to fill. They'd only be relevant as a comparison here if there had been a second NY NBA team since the 1960s that got taken away five years ago. Much closer to a Jets/Islanders scenario IMO.
   110. billyshears Posted: July 03, 2012 at 03:11 PM (#4172408)
That's INSANE. It's obviously a Nash ploy, but that's a TON of money for a guy who is, what, a 9th or 10th man, maybe?


Maybe they're assuming the Knicks will match. It's not as if the Knicks could use that money for somebody else. They either have Fields at that price, or they have a player making the minimum. If the Knicks continue to do what the Knicks so, they match.
   111. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 03, 2012 at 03:14 PM (#4172416)
Also, re:Terry/Celtics D - it's not as though Allen's D is anything special at this stage either.

And, totally agree with Joel in [103] - the Celtics need some different looks offensively next season rather than "several passes and screens to set up a 19 footer". Terry would give them a bit of that, and a bit of a different energy.
   112. I am going to be Frank Posted: July 03, 2012 at 03:18 PM (#4172420)
All they need is a bidding war between GS and Hou, who both need to trade for him sooner rather than later.


I know Houston is willing to trade for Howard without an extension in place, but would GS or anyone else? Howard has said he would only sign an extension with the Nets. Granted noone (including Howard) knows what he really wants but most NBA GM aren't willing to take that risk.

It's not that forced.


I would guess Orlando would keep Howard if they did not get a good enough offer but I would think they would want something rather than let him walk for nothing, even if its random young players on reasonable contracts and a bunch of draft picks.
   113. billyshears Posted: July 03, 2012 at 03:18 PM (#4172422)
I don't think the Mets are a relevant comparison anyway. You had three teams in NYC for the longest time, two in the National League, and suddenly they were taken away, leaving a void for non-Yankee fans which the Mets were able to fill. Frankly, the Mets were bound to be successful, they really didn't have to do much. They'd only be relevant as a comparison here if there had been a second NY NBA team since the 1960s that got taken away five years ago. Much closer to a Jets/Islanders scenario.


I generally agree with all this. I think the comparison to the Jets is instructive though. The Jets built a fanbase by pulling off the greatest upset in professional football history on the back of the most marketable star in the sport (and possibly in all of sports) at the time. Can the Nets do that? Also, I think football is sui generis in many ways.
   114. Jimmy P Posted: July 03, 2012 at 03:26 PM (#4172433)
I would guess Orlando would keep Howard if they did not get a good enough offer but I would think they would want something rather than let him walk for nothing, even if its random young players on reasonable contracts and a bunch of draft picks.

I think Orlando's looking for a combination of salary relief and youth. The New Jersey deal seems to offer neither. This is where Houston could swoop in and still make this happen. They have a bunch of young assets, they could probably absorb Hedo, and they'll take him.

That New Jersey deal is really garbage. An injury prone one way center, a bench wing, and 3 mid-20's draft picks! Wow!

The Lakers deal still happens if LA gives up Bynum.

At this point, Orlando's new GM needs to just stop talking to Dwight and make the deal. Dwight has no clue what he wants or what he's doing, just stop even talking with him.
   115. JoeHova Posted: July 03, 2012 at 03:28 PM (#4172436)
Landry Fields supposedly agreed to an offer sheet with Toronto, according to Marc Stein. Interesting move, I know some advanced stats love Fields. I assume Knicks will match, but they have a lot of decisions to make this summer.

edit: ugh, this got posted like 2 hours after I typed it, something was wrong with my browser.
   116. baudib Posted: July 03, 2012 at 03:29 PM (#4172438)
It'll be interesting to see if Manhattanies come into Brooklyn to watch the Nets for non-Knicks games. I think even as a small fish in a big pond, the Nets could be reasonably successful. I don't expect them to have the fan base the Mets or Jets do, at least not for a long time, but I don't think they need that.
   117. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 03, 2012 at 03:36 PM (#4172443)
Nobody responded to my Bynum v. Horford question, presumably out of kindness. I think I go Bynum too, but it's not super clear cut - given the difference in salaries.

Supposedly, LAL offered Bynum + Peace = Howard. There's got to be more to the offer than that - that's kind of insulting.
   118. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 03, 2012 at 03:39 PM (#4172444)
You know what I don't like about Jason Terry?

WS/48 by year, starting 2006-07: .182, .160, .140, .123, .100, .092

And he's 35 to start next season. Hmm.
   119. steagles Posted: July 03, 2012 at 03:41 PM (#4172446)
Brad Turner: Take Jamal Crawford off Clippers radar. He agreed to deal with Celtics, according to Yahoo Sports 1 minute ago
Chris Palmer: With Jason Terry coming to terms with Boston, Ray Allen's Miami visit just got a lot more interesting. 1 minute ago


that's a mistake, right? could the celtics really get crawford and terry?
   120. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 03, 2012 at 03:44 PM (#4172447)
he corrected it to terry (a signing i also didn't like)
   121. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 03, 2012 at 03:44 PM (#4172450)
that's a mistake, right? could the celtics really get crawford and terry?

Moreover, why would they? (if it were in fact true)
   122. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 03, 2012 at 03:49 PM (#4172452)
My $ is on Crawford going to LAC.
   123. Jimmy P Posted: July 03, 2012 at 03:49 PM (#4172453)
Supposedly, LAL offered Bynum + Peace = Howard. There's got to be more to the offer than that - that's kind of insulting.


I wouldn't take Peace. It'd have to be Bynum and Gasol.
   124. jmurph Posted: July 03, 2012 at 03:52 PM (#4172456)
I wouldn't take Peace. It'd have to be Bynum and Gasol.


Why would anyone give Orlando that much when everyone and their mother knows Howard has to be traded?
   125. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 03, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4172464)
To be the one to land him, the top bidder.
But, no, they wouldn't give that much.
   126. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 03, 2012 at 04:12 PM (#4172486)
Brooklyn gets Reggie Evans from LAC for a future 2nd rd pick in a s/t - Evans will sign for 3 yrs, 4.8 to 5m. (total not per season)
   127. JoeHova Posted: July 03, 2012 at 04:19 PM (#4172496)
Evans for a million and a half a year is a good move even though he's old. It's nice to have bench players who are at least good at one thing, rather than terrible all around.
   128. Joel W Posted: July 03, 2012 at 04:22 PM (#4172505)
Evans is a nice complement to Lopez.
   129. rr Posted: July 03, 2012 at 04:44 PM (#4172546)
It'd have to be Bynum and Gasol.


I wouldn't take MWP if I were Orlando, either, but Bynum and Gasol is almost certainly not happening. I doubt Buss/Kupchak would do that even if Howard agreed to an extension.
   130. Fourth True Outcome Posted: July 03, 2012 at 07:10 PM (#4172686)
Primer retweet @DeronWilliams:
Made a very tough decision today.... http://lockerz.com/s/222071318


The image is just the Nets logo. Woj reporting 5 years/100 million.
   131. Spivey Posted: July 03, 2012 at 07:18 PM (#4172696)
If the Nets sign Humphries to what he'd be expected to get and fill out the rest of their roster "normally", would they have room to offer Howard a max contract next year if he isn't already on the team?
   132. Jimmy P Posted: July 03, 2012 at 07:23 PM (#4172698)
If the Nets sign Humphries to what he'd be expected to get and fill out the rest of their roster "normally", would they have room to offer Howard a max contract next year if he isn't already on the team?

No. They can only get him via trade now.

If he truly wants/wanted to go to Brooklyn, he screwed up opting into his contract. That was a puzzling and idiotic move when he did it, and now looks even dumber.
   133. GregD Posted: July 03, 2012 at 07:36 PM (#4172704)
The image is just the Nets logo. Woj reporting 5 years/100 million.
Tip of cap to Billy King, then. The moves don't all make sense but losing Deron was obviously disaster,and if the moves helped convince him to stay, then they're worth doing.

I love how the comments are so bitter toward Deron.
   134. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 03, 2012 at 09:13 PM (#4172764)
news and notes:
ilyasova said to be strongly considering an offer from europe. while his big 11-12 was flukey, he's still a very nice player to have and a favorite of mine - i hope he stays (and suspect he will, though i'm not confident in that).
speaking of going to europe - vaya con dios rudy fernandez - we knew this day would come.
courtney lee now a ufa. that was a surprise.
rumor!: kidd likely to sign with nyk
rumor!: houston expected to offer lin $8m per for 3 or 4 years. reminder: they waived him, like, a few months ago.
   135. JuanGone..except1game Posted: July 03, 2012 at 10:16 PM (#4172792)
Mark Cuban's greediness might have really gotten him this time. He could have kept Chandler and had a chance to repeat but instead he went for gold (ie Deron/Dwight). He's got almost no chance at Howard now if Deron signs with the Nets and he's probably going to have to wait till next year to throw a max offer at Harden to improve that team.
   136. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 03, 2012 at 10:29 PM (#4172799)
Mark Cuban's greediness might have really gotten him this time.

I agree with everything you said, except how is that "Cuban's greediness"?
   137. rr Posted: July 03, 2012 at 10:58 PM (#4172806)
Speaking of Cuban, Lakers fans, and last off-season, Eric Gordon has signed a 4/58 offer sheet with Phoenix. Time for Stern to make his next basketball decision.
   138. tshipman Posted: July 03, 2012 at 11:55 PM (#4172826)
Nobody responded to my Bynum v. Horford question, presumably out of kindness. I think I go Bynum too, but it's not super clear cut - given the difference in salaries.


I like Horford. I think Bynum has higher upside.


Tip of cap to Billy King, then. The moves don't all make sense but losing Deron was obviously disaster,and if the moves helped convince him to stay, then they're worth doing.


Ugh. I don't know about that.
   139. rr Posted: July 04, 2012 at 12:33 AM (#4172847)
Nobody responded to my Bynum v. Horford question,


I don't think it matters all that much, from ORL's POV, and you can make an argument either way. Horford is good; Bynum is good. The only thing in it that I found fanboyish was when you talked about Horford's "intangibles." Bynum has his issues, but he played on 1 1/2 legs in 2010 during the playoffs and has worked through multiple lengthy rehabs to get to where he is. Lakers fans (and others) tend to forget that sometimes and focus on his negatives. Some of the stuff from last year looked bad, but I think it was partly Mike Brown's fault and neither the team nor Bynum himself underachieved. Horford seems to be a nicer guy than Bynum is, and Bynum has the history of dirty plays, and you can count that as part of the calculus if you want to, but I personally wouldn't. The problem with Bynum for me is simply whether his knee will hold up during a max deal.

As far as the Bynum/Peace offer being "insulting" one thing I have seen is that there is a lot of variation in how people see the gap between Bynum and Howard. There are those (including some Lakers fans) who think the Lakers should offer Bynum, Gasol and every draft pick they can until 2020 just for the chance to kiss Howard's ass for a year and beg him to stay. Others (mostly Lakers fans but not exclusively) seem to think that Orlando at this point should just trade Howard for Bynum and a pick or two.

If the Lakers included Metta in the offer, that was dumb, since ORL has no use for him. But given that

a) Howard says he wants out of Orlando
b) The Lakers are not the team he wants to go to
c) Howard is coming off back surgery
d) Bynum played the whole (short but intense) schedule without an injury last year

I don't see that the Lakers are necessarily well-served at this point by throwing whatever they can in addition to Bynum at a Howard deal. Also, the issue is structural, since the Lakers have no assets to trade other than Bynum, Gasol (and the ability to absorb a player with the TPE).

Maybe Hennigan will wind up taking the Brooklyn package. I should have seen that offer coming.
   140. rr Posted: July 04, 2012 at 12:43 AM (#4172860)
On another issue, now that Williams is out of the Dallas picture ISTM that Dallas is the logical place for Nash to go, and would also be a nice story.
   141. rr Posted: July 04, 2012 at 12:46 AM (#4172866)
On another issue, now that Williams is out of the Dallas picture ISTM that Dallas is the logical place for Nash to go, and would also be a nice story.
   142. tshipman Posted: July 04, 2012 at 12:51 AM (#4172874)
As far as the Bynum/Peace offer being "insulting" one thing I have seen is that there is a lot of variation in how people see the gap between Bynum and Howard.


I am a Laker fan, and I know that I'm probably biased, but I don't give Orlando anything more than Bynum and filler. No more than 1 first round pick, and that pick should be top 20 protected.

Why the hell would you offer anything more than that to Orlando? What are they going to do about it?
   143. rr Posted: July 04, 2012 at 01:26 AM (#4172905)
Why the hell would you offer anything more than that to Orlando?


I do not see this as an unreasonable position; I thought I made that clear. I have seen Lakers fans say they are OK renting Howard; they think if he is motivated he might push the team into the Finals and these people don't like Bynum and don't want to give him a max deal anyway. But in that scenario, you can't include Pau--either you keep him or use him to get a couple of guys to fill out the lineup so you can make your last try.

One problem with renting Howard is obvious: the back injury.

Zach Lowe's updated piece on today on the Howard situation (written mostly from the Orlando POV) is very good. Lowe is not enamored with the Brooklyn offer in terms of what Orlando is getting, but ISTM that with Howard on the record about one team now, Hennigan may not have much choice.
   144. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: July 04, 2012 at 01:30 AM (#4172906)
After thinking about it a bit more I'm actually pretty bullish on the Joe Johnson trade and on the future of the Nets even without Howard. Whenever you bring together a new set of players, there's a lot of uncertainty -- I think it's not reasonable to peg them for say 45 wins or any other specific total. Maybe the pieces will click well, Williams and Johnson will get into a groove, and they'll be a serious contender. Maybe it will be dysfunctional and they can't play together and they'll lose 50. Obviously at least one and probably both of them are going to have to change their playing style, which could result in more efficiency (as some have mentioned with regards to Johnson not having to be a primary creator), or more inefficiency. We just don't know yet -- we can guess of course but until 50 or so games in I think the jury has to be out on how successful the Nets will be. In any case, it will be a credible product for fans during the initial stages, with potential for a significant payoff if the team gels.
   145. JoeHova Posted: July 04, 2012 at 01:39 AM (#4172907)
Maybe the pieces will click well, Williams and Johnson will get into a groove, and they'll be a serious contender.

How would what you described coming to pass make the Nets a serious contender? I can see them being decent. But, how are they better than the recent Hawks, who were never close to being serious contenders?
   146. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: July 04, 2012 at 02:13 AM (#4172910)
How would what you described coming to pass make the Nets a serious contender? I can see them being decent. But, how are they better than the recent Hawks, who were never close to being serious contenders?


I think Deron may be undervalued -- it was just 2 years ago that he was generally (though certainly arguably) viewed as the 2nd best point guard in the game. Being the point guard of a shitty team is a black mark but I still think he's better now than the recent Hawks' best player, whoever you think it is.

The other thing is that even if they end up where the Hawks were it's not a total death knell. What was the difference between the 2009-2012 Hawks and the 2007-2010 Mavs? Both were capped-out teams that routinely made the playoffs but didn't make any noise at all once there. Dirk was better than the best Hawk for sure, but the Mavs were a much older team as well. Dallas made a shrewd trade to get Chandler and had a lucky/great playoff run and won a championship; who's to say that the Hawks couldn't have done the same with, hell, Deron Williams? Putting yourself in that position puts you one good acquisition away from being a real contender. That never happened with the Hawks (whether due to no opportunity or bad management) but it doesn't have to end up that way. There are some other scenarios too -- I'm not a MarShon Brooks fan at all but maybe he will turn into Jason Terry, maybe Lopez will emerge, maybe the Nets will find the next Jeremy Lin, maybe they pick up an Iguodala or someone in a salary dump and he's the missing piece, things can happen here.
   147. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: July 04, 2012 at 05:14 AM (#4172921)
I think Deron may be undervalued -- it was just 2 years ago that he was generally (though certainly arguably) viewed as the 2nd best point guard in the game.

Deron Williams has always been overrated because of the Chris Paul thing IMO.
   148. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 04, 2012 at 09:49 AM (#4172951)
Whether Bynum+Peace is insulting does depend on Howard's back. A healthy Howard is really, really good.

Horford's intangibles: I'll stand by that comment - it was meant as praise for Horford (who has long earned rave reviews in that dept), not as a knock on Bynum (who, as you likely recall, I've long liked). Just going over the checklist of things to consider, not a major point for me (particularly since a lot of the benefit of Horford's supposed tenacity and team play shows up in the box score). Bynum is, fairly unquestionably I think, the better player.

***

I've thought Deron overrated as well - but have underestimated him in the past and may be doing so now.
   149. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 04, 2012 at 10:07 AM (#4172957)
Deron was dealing with a hand and/or wrist injury just before the Jazz traded him, and since then his FG% has declined significantly. He had surgery April 2011, but I know wrist injuries in baseball have the reputation of taking a while to fully recover from. I don't know that his ongoing recovery was the problem this year, but I suspect it was at least partly responsible.
   150. kpelton Posted: July 04, 2012 at 10:42 AM (#4172973)
What was the difference between the 2009-2012 Hawks and the 2007-2010 Mavs? Both were capped-out teams that routinely made the playoffs but didn't make any noise at all once there.

From 2008-10 (I'm not counting the team that won 63 games), Dallas finished an average of 7.7 games per year back of the best record in the Western Conference. In 2009 the Lakers were clearly the best team in the West during the regular season, but otherwise Dallas was within a couple of games. From 2009-12, Atlanta finished an average of 13.8 games back of the best record in the East. That includes the 66-game season, where that margin shrunk a little artificially. Only once in four years (2010) were they within 10 games of the conference's best team.

The Hawks were never one break away from beating teams like Boston, Cleveland, Miami and Orlando; they just happened to be the best of a lesser tier. While regular-season benefits favors the Mavericks given their tendency to overachieve their point differential and the Lakers' tendency to pick it up the playoffs, Dallas was almost always in the mix, but in a much larger mix because the West was so much deeper.

I guess I could have saved a lot of math there and just said LeBron, Wade and Bosh (and, when healthy, Rose).
   151. The District Attorney Posted: July 04, 2012 at 11:57 AM (#4172996)
Not a Laker fan, and I think Orlando should be thrilled to get Bynum for Howard. It doesn't make any sense to keep Howard¹, and if you have to trade the best center, you might as well trade him for the second-best center. (Especially if that guy is also younger with perhaps some untapped talent remaining).

Also, what's the alternative?

Trading a Grade A player for a bunch of Grade C's? That's never wise.

Cashing Howard in for expiring contracts, and then hoping you can attract a star in the future to a team that has nothing? That's the (distasteful) position you can be forced into when you have no building blocks at all, but Bynum is 24 years old.

I suppose a deal centered around Horford could provide a decent alternative, but I think Bynum is better.

¹ Although of course it'll mean they fired Van Gundy for no reason, but that can't be helped now.
   152. Tripon Posted: July 04, 2012 at 12:01 PM (#4173000)
With the way the CBA is structured, you're never going to get 'full value' of your players. Right now, the Lakers offer is probably the best the Magic can do. Take it, build around Bynum and hope for the best.

And watch out for David Stern and his 'basketball' reasons.
   153. PJ Martinez Posted: July 04, 2012 at 12:04 PM (#4173004)
Steve Nash, meanwhile, and the Knicks are working with the Suns to complete a sign-and-trade deal that would bring Nash to New York. Indications are the Knicks are his top choice, but because a trade is complicated (and there is great hesitation to give up Iman Shumpert), the Raptors are in play. A lot of effort has been made, however, to get this done.
   154. PJ Martinez Posted: July 04, 2012 at 01:11 PM (#4173043)
@WojYahooNBA NY package would include Iman Shumpert, Toney Douglas and likely 3 low money players to get Nash salary needed to close gap on Toronto offer
   155. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 04, 2012 at 01:38 PM (#4173052)
Hmmm. With Gordon accepting the Suns' offer (NO still can match, but he doesn't want to stay), Phx's backcourt looks intriguing.
   156. Conor Posted: July 04, 2012 at 02:09 PM (#4173062)

re: Nash to Knicks
So you're saying the odds of that happening dropped from 100-1 to 150-1?


Will anyone give me some action on this?
   157. PJ Martinez Posted: July 04, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4173079)
Nash would almost certainly get the most out of his teammates on the offensive end, but man would Tyson Chandler have a lot to do on defense.
   158. steagles Posted: July 04, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4173146)
the sixers resigned spencer hawes for 2/13. i'm a bigger fan of his game than probably anyone else on the internet, so i'm not exactly upset by the move, but it does kind of create an issue w/r/t playing time. right now, there are 6 guys competing for 96 minutes, and with the veteranosity of hawes, brand, and young, i can't help but think they'll get their minutes at the expense of allen, vucevic, and moultrie.

and the combinations that these guys are used in could be a little problematic as well. allen and vucevic never really played extended minutes together last season, since collins didn't trust the two rookies to be on the floor together. and vucevic and hawes never really played extended minutes together, either.

it just seems to me like this season is setting up to be a lost year for at least a quarter of the roster. the logjam at forward seems to me to mean that there will be very little room for any individual player to separate himself from the rest of the crowd. and it's the same thing in the backcourt. if the sixers once again fail to trade iguodala, that again seems to me to mean that the development of holiday and turner will agian be stunted as they defer their ballhandling duties to the veteran.


i still just do not have a really positive feeling about this team's potential next year.
   159. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 04, 2012 at 05:58 PM (#4173154)
Gordon telling the Hornets they shouldn't bother matching Phoenix's offer sheet, what happens now? If NO throws a contract in front of Gordon anyway, he has no choice other than to sign, right? After all, isn't that the point of restricted free agency? But can the Suns help things along by offering some players* to the Hornets? But if Gordon is brought back, could he hold out?

* - If I'm the Hornets, I wait for the Suns-Knicks deal to go through, then ask for Shumpert and Jared Dudley.
   160. JoeHova Posted: July 04, 2012 at 06:24 PM (#4173160)
I think New Orleans will just match, counting on Gordon getting over whatever hurt feelings he has. And yes, if a restricted free agent signs with another team, he has no choice but to go back to his original team if they decide to match the offer. And he can't be signed-and-traded once he actually signs the offer sheet with another team. However, nobody can sign contracts until the 11th so the Suns and Hornets would have until then to work out a deal if that's what all 3 parties decide to do. If New Orleans does match a signed offer sheet, Gordon couldn't be traded to Phoenix for 1 year.
   161. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 04, 2012 at 06:41 PM (#4173164)
I agree.

Am surprised Teletovic reportedly will take miniMLE, though not as surprised as I was to hear he was getting the full five to begin with. I ridiculed some DH to BKN talk at work yesterday ... oops?
   162. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 04, 2012 at 07:57 PM (#4173189)
Phx sports jock guy tweeting that Nash to the Lakers for multiple picks is almost done.
   163. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 04, 2012 at 08:03 PM (#4173191)
I nearly spit out my food when I read this. I NEED THIS TO BE TRUE!
   164. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 04, 2012 at 08:20 PM (#4173195)
   165. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 04, 2012 at 08:35 PM (#4173198)
Apparently, the deal is done. Phoenix gets four picks and cash.
   166. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 04, 2012 at 08:37 PM (#4173199)
In the Nash sign-and-trade, the #Suns will get 2013 & 2015 first-round picks and 2013 & 2014 second-round picks.
That's from the Republic's writer.
   167. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 04, 2012 at 08:47 PM (#4173204)
It will be very hard to see Nash in purple and gold, but I don't think the Suns had any leverage. Not unless Sarver wanted to screw over the franchise's most popular player out of intra-division spite.
   168. JJ1986 Posted: July 04, 2012 at 08:47 PM (#4173205)
I thought it was a bad idea to give away Odom, but it looks like that's going to end up working out in a huge way.
   169. thok Posted: July 04, 2012 at 08:56 PM (#4173206)
I'm not convinced Nash helps the Lakers close the gap between themselves and SA/OK/MI, but he clearly doesn't hurt the Lakers. (I don't see what problems the Lakers had that Nash specifically helps them overcome, except maybe allowing them to shorten up Bryant's minutes in the regular season to keep him rested by having the occasional Nash-Sessions backcourt.)
   170. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 04, 2012 at 08:57 PM (#4173207)
Here's my answer:
Difficult as it is on some levels for the Suns to help the face of the franchise get to the Lakers -- especially after years of playoff battles with the Lakers in the Nash Era -- sources say Suns owner Robert Sarver finally agreed to the trade after yielding to a plea from Nash to send him to a destination where he could maintain the closest possible ties to his children and still chase the ring that has eluded him for 16 seasons.

The Lakers clinched the deal by surrendering the package of picks, but sources said that the Suns did decide to reward Nash for all the success he delivered over the past eight seasons.
That was Sarver's choice: Bone over Nash or trade him to LA. Not an enviable place to be.
   171. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 04, 2012 at 08:58 PM (#4173208)
According to the ESPN story I just posted, Sessions is gone.
   172. tshipman Posted: July 04, 2012 at 09:10 PM (#4173213)
Ugh. I have a serious sports hate-on for Steve Nash. Probably my least favorite NBA player.

BTW, near guarantee that Nash misses 30+ games next year.

Ugh ugh ugh, hate this deal.
   173. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 04, 2012 at 09:16 PM (#4173215)
Wonderful deal for LAL.
   174. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 04, 2012 at 09:22 PM (#4173216)
If the Lakers' med staff can't keep Nash healthy, then this deal gets ugly.
   175. Zipperholes Posted: July 04, 2012 at 09:23 PM (#4173217)
How would not doing the S&T with the Lakers be boning him over? A S&T with another team obviously requires Nash's participation. And the alternative, letting him hit FA, would allow him to freely sign with the Lakers if he wanted to.
   176. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 04, 2012 at 09:24 PM (#4173218)
Uh, Nash is a free agent. The S&T was necessary so Nash could get paid ($27MM over 3, reports say).
   177. Maxwn Posted: July 04, 2012 at 09:35 PM (#4173220)
That was Sarver's choice: Bone over Nash or trade him to LA. Not an enviable place to be.

I've got to say that I think all this hand-wringing about poor Sarver is absurd. Nash was a free agent. If he wanted to sign somewhere with cap space or sign for the MLE, he could do it and the Suns would get nothing. Instead, he asks Sarver to help him out and in exchange they'll make it worth his while. He gets four picks for nothing much more than being helpful. That's four more picks than he had any right to expect to get. Now good job by Sarver for playing up the tough decision angle to increase his haul, but nobody should feel sorry for him. He made out like a bandit in this deal.

And I think the "but it's the f-ing Lakers" thing is stupid too. The Suns are in the same position now that the Grizzlies were when they traded Pau. If this deal works perfectly for the Lakers and they win a championship or two with Nash, what do the Suns care? They aren't winning a championship in the next year or three with Jared Dudley and Marcin Gortat anyway. Making the Lakers better for the next couple of years is really not Phoenix's problem. They should be looking to the future, and in that vein, turning down free draft picks because #### the Lakers would have been one of the dumber things a team has done this offseason.
   178. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 04, 2012 at 09:40 PM (#4173223)
I've got to say that I think all this hand-wringing about poor Sarver is absurd. Nash was a free agent. If he wanted to sign somewhere with cap space or sign for the MLE, he could do it and the Suns would get nothing. Instead, he asks Sarver to help him out and in exchange they'll make it worth his while. He gets four picks for nothing much more than being helpful. That's four more picks than he had any right to expect to get. Now good job by Sarver for playing up the tough decision angle to increase his haul, but nobody should feel sorry for him. He made out like a bandit in this deal.
I completely agree... but I live in Phoenix, and if you don't think Sarver is being roasted over this - absolutely destroyed - you're not paying attention.
   179. thok Posted: July 04, 2012 at 09:46 PM (#4173224)
BTW, near guarantee that Nash misses 30+ games next year.


It's hard for me to imagine a situation where Nash has injury issues but hasn't had a significant age related decline. That's the real potential pitfall; the Lakers are paying for a 38 year old point guard who's four years older than anybody who will likely play for the Lakers next year.
   180. Maxwn Posted: July 04, 2012 at 09:46 PM (#4173225)
I completely agree... but I live in Phoenix, and if you don't think Sarver is being roasted over this - absolutely destroyed - you're not paying attention.

I'm sure he is, but if you're going to run a team to not get roasted by the fans, you might as well not even own a team.
   181. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 04, 2012 at 09:53 PM (#4173228)
The fans of the Phoenix sports scene are notable for a rather cold-eyed rationality* - but not with the Suns. They were our first pro team... and the Lakers are the Lakers. At least they're not the Spurs.

* - OK, fine, call it "front-running."
   182. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 04, 2012 at 10:10 PM (#4173236)
Not to be obvious, but this is all about the short run for LA.

You could make a non-insane argument that Nash was one of the top 15 players in the league last year*, who addresses several key Lakers weaknesses (outside shooting among them). No, he can't guard people (though neither did Sessions) and, yes, he's ancient and locked up for awhile - but you're already riding with Kobe, come what may.
As for health (and age aside), though it's hard to isolate the impact of the awesome by all accounts Suns' training staff - Nash hasn't missed double digit games in a season in any of his last eleven seasons.


* For example (though this is a stat, not an argument): the guys who posted better simple ratings than Nash last year were (excl. cup of coffee dudes): Dirk, Paul and Griffin, James and Wade, Durant and Harden, Howard and Anderson - that's 9. Ginobili as well, but he only played a quarter of his team's minutes on the season.

***

I think that's was cool of Sarver to reward Nash like that, better deals were likely on the table.
   183. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 04, 2012 at 10:14 PM (#4173239)
As for health (and age aside), though it's hard to isolate the impact of the awesome by all accounts Suns' training staff - Nash hasn't missed double digit games in a season in any of his last eleven seasons.
We're about to find out because Grant Hill may sign with LA now.
   184. rr Posted: July 04, 2012 at 10:16 PM (#4173241)
Aside: ESPN reporting that Nash was persuaded by a "determined push from Kobe Bryant."

It's risky, but I would have triggered on it. Agree with DK overall. Wish they could have kept the 1st in 2015.

Also, I am the opposite of shipman: I love Nash and look forward to rooting for him. I am guessing that they think this may make Howard look more favorably on LA (or maybe not).
   185. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 04, 2012 at 10:17 PM (#4173242)
Nash's statement:
For the last 8 seasons I’ve been blessed to play for a team and a city that has embraced me and that I have come to call home. This is a tough business and the only thing constant in life is change.

After talking with (owner) Robert (Sarver) and (president of basketball operations) Lon (Babby) we’ve agreed that it’s time for both of us to move in new directions. I approached them and asked if they would be willing to do a sign and trade deal with L.A. because it is very important to me to stay near my children and family.

They were very apprehensive and didn’t want to do it. Fortunately for me, they reconsidered. They saw that they were able to get assets for their team that will make them better, assets they would not have otherwise had and it made sense for them to do a deal that helps their team get better.

I couldn’t be more grateful to the organization and Robert in particular. I know how hard this was for him and that fact that he was able to help me and my family in this way … it means a lot and says a lot about his character. I will never forget this gesture. Above and beyond.

The Phoenix Suns are an amazing organization and fans should be excited about their future. I hope the Suns win a championship some day soon for all the amazing fans and wonderful people in the organization.
   186. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 04, 2012 at 10:20 PM (#4173245)
a "determined push from Kobe Bryant."

...
   187. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 04, 2012 at 10:22 PM (#4173248)
So you're saying the odds of that happening dropped from 100-1 to 150-1?


Will anyone give me some action on this?


Still interested?
   188. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 04, 2012 at 10:36 PM (#4173261)
rumor!: SuperBeas to PHO 3/18m.
   189. Maxwn Posted: July 04, 2012 at 10:38 PM (#4173264)
I think that's was cool of Sarver to reward Nash like that, better deals were likely on the table.

I think it was both the smart decision and a nice gesture on the part of the Suns, but I can't really agree with the second part. There might have been other teams willing to do a S&T for a better package, but the Suns can't control that. They only get to be in the deal at all if Nash decides to let them. If I'm Nash and Sarver rejects my personal request just because he doesn't want to do the deal with the Lakers, I'd be very tempted to say "Fine" and just cut the Suns out completely wherever I wound up going, Toronto, Dallas, wherever. There's a reason these S&T deals happen pretty much every time, including, lest we forget, in the Cleveland-Lebron-Miami debacle, and that reason is the sign-and-trading team has little-to-no leverage because they are not really giving up anything and everyone knows that it is better for them to get something rather than nothing. So I agree that is admirable of Sarver to take the heat from his fanbase and do this for Nash, but there's a very real sense in which he's getting four picks just to sign some paperwork.
   190. Paul D(uda) Posted: July 04, 2012 at 10:48 PM (#4173273)

For ##### sake. Why does Toronto even has a basketball team?

Jonas better be some kind of ####### miracle man.
   191. tshipman Posted: July 04, 2012 at 10:55 PM (#4173277)
a "determined push from Kobe Bryant."

...


?? Not sure what the ellipse is for. This is how team building works in the NBA--your star gets people on board.
   192. bobm Posted: July 04, 2012 at 10:58 PM (#4173282)
[189] There's a reason these S&T deals happen pretty much every time, including, lest we forget, in the Cleveland-Lebron-Miami debacle, and that reason is the sign-and-trading team has little-to-no leverage because they are not really giving up anything and everyone knows that it is better for them to get something rather than nothing. So I agree that is admirable of Sarver to take the heat from his fanbase and do this for Nash, but there's a very real sense in which he's getting four picks just to sign some paperwork.

It is frustrating as a fan to see free agent players and their old teams conspiring to rip off the new teams. You've got to be a pretty greedy #### to denude your new team of talent or picks and make it that much harder for the new team to win--I'm looking at you, Carmelo--just to add a sixth guaranteed year to your contract. The league likes it I guess because it helps to maintain competitive balance.
   193. bobm Posted: July 04, 2012 at 11:01 PM (#4173285)
[191]
a "determined push from Kobe Bryant."

...



?? Not sure what the ellipse is for. This is how team building works in the NBA--your star gets people on board.


By raping them? The ellipse is supposed to denote a double entendre, I think.
   194. tshipman Posted: July 04, 2012 at 11:14 PM (#4173297)
By raping them? The ellipse is supposed to denote a double entendre, I think.


Ah, got it.
   195. Zipperholes Posted: July 04, 2012 at 11:15 PM (#4173299)
I think it was both the smart decision and a nice gesture on the part of the Suns, but I can't really agree with the second part.
Concur with this. Nash might've said, "I'll do an S&T with the Lakers, but if you refuse, I'm walking." Sarver has no leverage. Now, Sarver could've called his bluff, and then where does Nash go? Toronto? Who else could pay him? Dallas? But the point is, Sarver really took the only deal he had.
   196. Maxwn Posted: July 04, 2012 at 11:18 PM (#4173302)
It is frustrating as a fan to see free agent players and their old teams conspiring to rip off the new teams. You've got to be a pretty greedy #### to denude your new team of talent or picks and make it that much harder for the new team to win--I'm looking at you, Carmelo--just to add a sixth guaranteed year to your contract. The league likes it I guess because it helps to maintain competitive balance.

This strikes me as a remarkably inaccurate description of what goes on in these deals. Every single party to a sign-and-trade deal can walk away if they want to. No one's getting ripped off. If the new team doesn't want to give stuff to the old team to make the S&T work, nobody's forcing them to. If they do, it's because they judge it to be worth the return.
   197. GregD Posted: July 04, 2012 at 11:33 PM (#4173309)
Odds on the Knicks matching the Fields offer?
   198. rr Posted: July 04, 2012 at 11:46 PM (#4173312)
Yeah, I left that there, figuring that Joe, a committed and intense KobeHater, (although he is usually smart enough not to talk about it much here, except for stuff like leaving ellipses) would get right on it.

But I also think that if it is true, it is worth noting for Bryantologists, given that Nash is many respects the anti-Kobe and serious BryantHaters,(like Joe, Abbott, Simmons, and Backlasher) often really love Steve Nash (as do many other people, of course).

I am assuming they let Sessions walk now; they don't need someone else in the backcourt who can't D up. This may open up a little daylight for Darius Morris, whose size might be useful as a third guard in cross matches and whose inexperience would, shall we say, be counterweighted by what is probably the oldest starting backcourt in NBA history.

Anyone unhappy with the Lakers getting Nash should have hope, though: Stern may just figure that Nash would make a really nice backup for Chris Paul.
   199. bobm Posted: July 04, 2012 at 11:52 PM (#4173315)
If the new team doesn't want to give stuff to the old team to make the S&T work, nobody's forcing them to.

One "mandate" thread is enough :)

If they do, it's because they judge it to be worth the return.

Why should the free agent have to participate in a trade to maximize his earnings? The old teams often end up with more "compensation" than they apparently have the leverage to justify. If the league wants to compensate the old teams, why not do so directly via added draft picks, etc?
   200. rr Posted: July 05, 2012 at 12:06 AM (#4173323)
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