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Monday, July 02, 2012

OT: NBA basketball July Thread 2012

I estimate that only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what the site is really about: Jim Furtado trolling his own site when he’s bored.

Tripon Posted: July 02, 2012 at 04:21 PM | 2487 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball

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   1101. JC in DC Posted: July 15, 2012 at 11:13 PM (#4183469)
The money they don't pay Lin just goes into Dolan's pocket. They can't use that "saved" money to get better players. Unless they think they can get a better player for minimum, or unless Dolan suddenly has cash issues, they should in fact overpay players given their terrible cap situation. I'm not convinced they shouldn't have ridiculously overpaid Fields.


This is a strange argument. They should just keep the approach they've used so unsuccessfully since Isiah was running the team? Overpay the talent. This didn't work for them before. Why would I think it will work now?

I don't know how good Grunwald will be, but I'm trying to get a read on his approach. On the face of it, in my judgment, Lin doesn't merit this contract and the costs to the team. If this is a sign that Grunwald is trying to find better value, super. I grant that it may be a sign of nothing other than some Dolan grudge or whatever else. But I don't think not being willing to overpay for Lin is some disastrous moment for this team. I'm tired of watching the team get saddled with overpriced players.
   1102. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 15, 2012 at 11:24 PM (#4183476)
I'm not saying that they should or shouldn't keep Lin, but this is all easy to say when it's not your money.

1101 - I'm thinking this might be about grudge, above all. IF true,that's a very bad sign. But - who knows?
   1103. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 15, 2012 at 11:25 PM (#4183480)
Interesting pieces, but they're capped out and they might win less than 40 games. Not a fan of the Suns' offseason. If they were going to make these moves, why not try to hold on to Nash?
Honestly, I think the Suns are setting themselves up for a slo-mo rebuild. No cap-crippling contracts in either length or money, and most falls off the books after the 14-15 season. No stars on the roster but the players are affordable and talented, so contenders may want them for depth and patching holes. Meanwhile, they have 10 picks over the next three drafts.

Phoenix's FO had to start the rebuild somewhere, and I don't believe it's a bad start.
   1104. GregD Posted: July 15, 2012 at 11:49 PM (#4183492)
I don't know how good Grunwald will be, but I'm trying to get a read on his approach. On the face of it, in my judgment, Lin doesn't merit this contract and the costs to the team. If this is a sign that Grunwald is trying to find better value, super. I grant that it may be a sign of nothing other than some Dolan grudge or whatever else. But I don't think not being willing to overpay for Lin is some disastrous moment for this team. I'm tired of watching the team get saddled with overpriced players.
If we're judging talent by some abstract conception of its worth and assume GMs are playing to win the Blue Ribbon for best job matching real to abstract value, then sure.

But with the cap, the Knicks' RFAs are worth more to them than they are to other teams because the Knicks can only replace them with minimum players. And this will be true for all three years. So between now and then, are you better off with Lin on your team or with a minimum player? I say Lin.

Given that you won't have any salary flexibility until the big deals expire, and Lin's contract won't affect that flexibility either now or later, then what is the cost? The cost is solely the owners' money and the owner or GM's ego.

If you truly think that the Knicks would be better without Lin, then of course. But Lin's contract will not prevent them from making a single deal in the next 3 years. If you would sign Lin for 3 years, $20 million, then why no re-sign him for this deal? An abstract sense of his value is irrelevant under the circumstances.

So I don't think the analogy to the I Thomas years holds at all; IT was throwing huge money at free agents and that money directly affected the Knicks' future flexibility. This money doesn't.
   1105. The District Attorney Posted: July 15, 2012 at 11:53 PM (#4183497)
#1087: Not sure what you're questioning? I got that number from Sheridan Hoops.
If, for argument’s sake, the Knicks payroll was equal to the luxury tax threshold, adding an extra $15 million for Jeremy Lin’s salary would cost the Knicks a total of $43 million. They’d have to pay Lin’s salary, and the luxury tax payment for a team $15 million over the tax threshold—in 2014-2015—will be about $28 million.

Now, after adding Felton, retaining Lin becomes even more expensive.

If the Knicks match Lin’s offer and end up being $19 million above the luxury tax threshold because of it, they would owe $41.75 million in luxury tax penalties, and when you include Lin’s $15 million salary, his total cost could be about $57 million.
   1106. Raskolnikov Posted: July 16, 2012 at 12:35 AM (#4183514)
It's entertaining watching Dolan blow a enormous political and marketing opportunity for his franchise, but then he's always been a fool. And the Knicks have been a bumbling franchise for a long time now - was the JVG era the last time this organization has had a clue? I wonder what Stern is thinking, as Lin on the Knicks (or Nets or Lakers) would be a bonanza for the NBA.

Also think that passing on Lin is foolish for the Knicks on a basketball level - going with Felton/Chandler/Melo/Amare pretty much seals the Knicks as a 45 win and 7/8 seed, fringe playoff contender for the next few years. But I guess that's a step up from the Isiah era.
   1107. Mark S. is bored Posted: July 16, 2012 at 12:46 AM (#4183522)
Now, after adding Felton, retaining Lin becomes even more expensive.
So if getting Felton would make Lin even more expensive, why would they add Felton?
   1108. Tripon Posted: July 16, 2012 at 12:52 AM (#4183525)
So if getting Felton would make Lin even more expensive, why would they add Felton?


Because Mike Woodson has no idea how to add Lin to his offense. Which is basically Iso-Melo?
   1109. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 16, 2012 at 12:53 AM (#4183527)
It's entertaining watching Dolan blow a enormous political and marketing opportunity for his franchise, but then he's always been a fool. And the Knicks have been a bumbling franchise for a long time now - was the JVG era the last time this organization has had a clue? I wonder what Stern is thinking, as Lin on the Knicks (or Nets or Lakers) would be a bonanza for the NBA.

I really don't know about this. Here Knicks fans are victims of their own inability to punish the team by manifesting as empty seats. The Knicks sell out whether they win 60 games with Jeremy Lin or win 30 games with Johnny Flynn. The ones who benefit from sudden demand for Knicks tickets due to Linsanity are scalpers. And all the revenue from jerseys and whatnot gets split evenly between the teams, except for those actually sold at Madison Square Garden, if I mistake not. The Knicks aren't affected that much monetarily by the star power of their players. This should be a basketball decision.
   1110. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: July 16, 2012 at 12:55 AM (#4183528)
Im a little drunk but ill throw a question out there but maybe the bulls should aquire jujuan johnson to play the 5 he had solid defense in college maybe he could replace asiek(sp) please tell me why it wouldnt work, i.figured id throw it out there
   1111. PJ Martinez Posted: July 16, 2012 at 12:59 AM (#4183530)
Lin on the Knicks (or Nets or Lakers) would be a bonanza for the NBA.

Lin on the Knicks was a bonanza for the NBA. Because he was playing well and they were winning. But it's quite possible neither will continue to happen. He might play well or he might not. The team might play well or it might not.

If he doesn't play well, it's not a bonanza anymore. Even if he does play well and the team plays poorly, it's probably less of a bonanza that it was. Heck, it's almost certainly less of a bonanza no matter what, since a certain amount of that excitement stemmed from the novelty and unlikeliness of it all.

If Lin continues to succeed, he'll continue to be a very popular player, but that's not a sure thing. And unless he does even better and/or the team surpasses expectations, "Linsanity" is probably not coming back, not with the kind of crazy force it had before.
   1112. It's a shame about Athletic Supporter Posted: July 16, 2012 at 01:25 AM (#4183542)
Given that you won't have any salary flexibility until the big deals expire, and Lin's contract won't affect that flexibility either now or later, then what is the cost? The cost is solely the owners' money


Why does everyone always talk as if this is irrelevant? It's very strange to me. If Lin had been offered the max would the same argument apply? Hell, by this argument, the Knicks should have matched a max offer to say Landry Fields because whatever, it's not preventing the team from getting better and actually helping it (you could trade an expiring for some other better, more highly paid, longer-contract player).

We castigate (and rightfully so) the Yankees for putting together a soulless mercenary team by spending tons of money to buy everyone and then we castigate the Knicks for not doing the same?
   1113. bob gee Posted: July 16, 2012 at 06:52 AM (#4183567)
went on to realgm and wow - the knicks board is overflowing with a huge number of posts on this. i expected to see a split voice (some people saying "don't spend that kind of money on a 1/3 season player", some wanting him back, but a fair number killing the knicks for not signing him earlier). instead, there's a TON of people who sound like msg cheerleaders. some stuff i've read by multiple posters include:

- he's soft, didn't come back for the playoffs, won't do well in a tough city like nyc.
- he tricked the knicks by telling the rockets that nyk would match any offer.
- lin's time doesn't count (because he was here with d'antoni) but felton's last year doesn't count, only his time with the knicks - and it was 'better' than lin's.
- if lin is leaving, it's because dolan knows he will make more $ without him. (don't they remember dolan's track record of keeping loyal foot soldiers like isiah?)

it's probably got the rudest and most obnoxious posters of anyone on there and reads like the worst aspects of talk radio; i saw several posts which were reasonable analysis of why they should/shouldn't keep him and were greeted with a slew of GTFO.

i've got to remember NOT to go to the individual team boards.

   1114. rr Posted: July 16, 2012 at 07:25 AM (#4183576)
bob gee,

In case you don't know, KnickerBlogger, the ESPN True Hoop affiliate, often has pretty good discussions. There is some venting and some metastuff sometimes, as with any board, but overall it is usually worth checking out. There is often a lot of cynicism, but if you are rooting for James Dolan's team, that is quite understandable. I have not looked in on it to see what they are saying about the Lin brouhaha.
   1115. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 16, 2012 at 07:47 AM (#4183586)
james johnson to sac for a future 2nd
   1116. Conor Posted: July 16, 2012 at 07:59 AM (#4183590)
To me, as a Knicks fan, it seemed like their only chance to seriously contend for a title was if Lin was anywhere close to being the kind of player that he showed this season. There are plenty of caveats to that, and everyone probably has a different opinion on how likely that is to happen, but I think we can agree that it's not going to happen for Ray Felton, right?

I think the Knicks without Lin will be more than a 45 win fringe playoff contender. Th, ey had a pythag win% that works out to about 51 wins last year. That does include time with Lin, but Melo was hurt, Amare was hurt, Jr Smith didn't play the first month of the season, Novak barely played the first month or so of the season, they changed coaches, etc. I think 50 or so wins seems like a decent enough projection for the Knicks. And that's cool, it's been a long time since they won that many games, but after all the money they have wasted in the past, it's a little frustrating for them now to decide to play it "smart".
   1117. bob gee Posted: July 16, 2012 at 08:22 AM (#4183601)
robinred,
thanks for that lead. i can deal with the normal fanboy cheering and whining, but it was kind of nutty there.

just checked it out. so that's where hollinger is! can't believe i hadn't heard of it before, but i may have dismissed it out of hand because it's espn. i did that with grantland as well...

oh, chris broussard has sources telling him a broken clock is right twice a day.

1116: yup, exactly. lin might be great, might not. i thought the kidd acquisition was good for the knicks, as a backup in case lin collapsed or got injured. same with the 35 year old from somewhere else, a nice contingency plan.


for the rockets - i think the howard deal would make great sense for them. dwight would get tons of action on offense with pick-n-roll and garbage cleanups and i think morey can get the missing parts there (3 point shooter, athletic forward with good defense) that would complement lin and howard.
   1118. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 16, 2012 at 08:23 AM (#4183602)
To me, as a Knicks fan, it seemed like their only chance to seriously contend for a title was if Lin was anywhere close to being the kind of player that he showed this season.

Exactly. This is what it comes down to.

EDIT: As for the current temperature on Knickerblogger, some are for, some are against, but here's a post from the second most positive poster on the site, a guy who has supported pretty much every move regardless of the arguments everyone else wanted to make against them:

"The worst part for me is that these ####### ######## make me somehow feel like I’m the ####### loser here. Because I’m completely crushed by this ####. I haven’t been this depressed since an ACTUAL tragedy happened, and for what? For a basketball team that doesn’t give a #### about me? I spent 27 years worshipping this ####### team that won absolutely NOTHING. I loved this team more than every other team that I like combined. And for what? There is no hope. I’ve gotten upset when people like THCJ would point out the facts about this team because I didn’t want some ####### crushing my dreams. Now I can actually see that it wasn’t him doing it. It’s always been them, and it’s never going to stop. I don’t know how to root for another team, but I just don’t think I can root for this one anymore."
   1119. Conor Posted: July 16, 2012 at 08:41 AM (#4183609)
And even as someone who thinks they should match on Lin, I think the most likely scenario is that they guy turns out to be a decent enough player, a guy who should start for most teams, but not a star. But I know what Felton is.

Marc Berman on twitter

NBA scout told me last week Lin is no better than Felton and said most personnel guys agree. Felton was high on list when free agency began.


Is there some other Ray Felton I don't know about? Someone mentioned on Knickerblogger that he had a career true shooting% below 50, and I thought that couldn't have been right. But it is.
   1120. The District Attorney Posted: July 16, 2012 at 08:45 AM (#4183611)
he tricked the knicks by telling the rockets that nyk would match any offer.
THE TEAM'S COACH SAID THIS IN PUBLIC. Yeesh.
   1121. JC in DC Posted: July 16, 2012 at 09:00 AM (#4183619)
To me, as a Knicks fan, it seemed like their only chance to seriously contend for a title was if Lin was anywhere close to being the kind of player that he showed this season.

Exactly. This is what it comes down to.


If it does come down to this, then I'm on the other side. I don't think the Knicks have ANY chance to win the title (or "seriously contend") with Lin or Felton. They are just not nearly as good as Miami.
   1122. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 16, 2012 at 09:00 AM (#4183620)
bob,
Had you heard of Hollinger but not seen his work or did you follow him back in his alleyoop.com days? Just curious...

To me, as a Knicks fan, it seemed like their only chance to seriously contend for a title was if Lin was anywhere close to being the kind of player that he showed this season.

Frankly I don't think even that's enough to contend but, yes.
   1123. Conor Posted: July 16, 2012 at 09:03 AM (#4183623)
If it does come down to this, then I'm on the other side. I don't think the Knicks have ANY chance to win the title (or "seriously contend") with Lin or Felton. They are just not nearly as good as Miami.


The reality is that's probably the most likely scenario.

But one of the Prospectus guys (can't remember which) said he had the Knicks second in his projections for the East next year. (I assume this was with Lin, but I don't know for sure). It wasn't like the Knicks were clearly #2, but that's still pretty good. And you never know, maybe Wade gets old and Lebron has a playoff series where he is merely great instead of superhuman...

I need to stop tryign to talk myself into this
   1124. JC in DC Posted: July 16, 2012 at 09:41 AM (#4183653)
Way too optimistic, IMHO. I don't think they're better than Boston, even without Allen, and assuming Rose is back fully, no way they're better than Chicago.
   1125. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 16, 2012 at 09:56 AM (#4183665)
For those who seem to think it’s a good idea/defensible that the Knicks not match Lin…what would you have the team do instead to improve itself? Or, do you think the team as presently constructed is good enough?

But one of the Prospectus guys (can't remember which) said he had the Knicks second in his projections for the East next year. (I assume this was with Lin, but I don't know for sure). It wasn't like the Knicks were clearly #2, but that's still pretty good.

It was Doolittle.

Way too optimistic, IMHO. I don't think they're better than Boston, even without Allen, and assuming Rose is back fully, no way they're better than Chicago.

Chicago with a fully healthy Rose is obviously better, but that's not going to be the case for most of next year and the projections were about the standings, not the quality of the team at the end of the season.
   1126. Raskolnikov Posted: July 16, 2012 at 09:56 AM (#4183666)
Seems to meet that this is a matter of personnel foresight decision-making. They should have known that the tax in 3 years would be an issue, and tried to unload as much as possible beforehand and not take on anymore. Bringing in Kidd, Felton, and extending Novak seem foolish in hindsight in that it now impacts their ability to resign Lin.

It would have been annoying to see Dolan and the Knicks benefit from Lin anyway, since incompetence and greed should not be rewarded the way it did last year.


I really don't know about this. Here Knicks fans are victims of their own inability to punish the team by manifesting as empty seats. The Knicks sell out whether they win 60 games with Jeremy Lin or win 30 games with Johnny Flynn. The ones who benefit from sudden demand for Knicks tickets due to Linsanity are scalpers. And all the revenue from jerseys and whatnot gets split evenly between the teams, except for those actually sold at Madison Square Garden, if I mistake not. The Knicks aren't affected that much monetarily by the star power of their players. This should be a basketball decision.

If he doesn't play well, it's not a bonanza anymore. Even if he does play well and the team plays poorly, it's probably less of a bonanza that it was. Heck, it's almost certainly less of a bonanza no matter what, since a certain amount of that excitement stemmed from the novelty and unlikeliness of it all.



Possibly, but I think you're completely underestimating both the potential of the Asian-American marketing potential - which is somewhat untapped - and Asian marketing potential - which is enormous.

And to Crispix, this isn't about ticket sales and jersey sales. It's about branding and exposure. The Knicks will continue to be profitable - pretty much any NBA team in a large market will be. It's about the ability to generate a "Kobe" or "Jordan" like brand. The Linsanity phenomenon has that potential, which very few players in the NBA have.
   1127. Conor Posted: July 16, 2012 at 10:01 AM (#4183671)
Someone on Knickerblogger pointed out the Knicks could use the stretch provision on Lin, which would allow them to waive him after the second year and spread the remaining $15 million over three years, which severely limits the luxury tax hit.
   1128. AROM Posted: July 16, 2012 at 10:11 AM (#4183677)
Possibly, but I think you're completely underestimating both the potential of the Asian-American marketing potential - which is somewhat untapped - and Asian marketing potential - which is enormous.


But mostly irrelevant, if I understand the way the NBA does these things. If 1 billion people in China log on to NBA.com and buy a Lin Rockets jersey, the Knicks will see just as much money (1/30 of total) as they would from 1 billion Knicks Lin Jerseys.

For those who seem to think it’s a good idea/defensible that the Knicks not match Lin…what would you have the team do instead to improve itself? Or, do you think the team as presently constructed is good enough?


I'm pretty skeptical that the Knicks can seriously contend with the core they have right now, with or without Lin. Their fate was mostly sealed when they made a ton of cap room available, lost out on Lebron, and gave it to Stoudamire. The only way this team could contend right now is to convince the Magic that Amare + Chandler is a good return for Howard + Hedo or Richardson. If they want a serious contender then they have to do a serious rebuilding, not just sign the first overrated scorer who takes their max money as soon as they free it up.

   1129. billyshears Posted: July 16, 2012 at 10:15 AM (#4183681)
They should just keep the approach they've used so unsuccessfully since Isiah was running the team? Overpay the talent. This didn't work for them before. Why would I think it will work now?


Isiah's real problem was not that he kept taking on more money, but that he kept taking on more years. Almost every major deal he did extended the time period when the Knicks would be in cap hell. The Knicks were already in a straight-jacket when Isiah got there. Unlike Walsh, who figured out that the only thing the Knicks could do to win was get out of the straight-jacket, Isiah thought he could win in the straight-jacket, and didn't seem to ever care about getting out.

At this point, every major deal the Knicks have runs 3 more years. The Lin deal runs 3 years. The Knicks may be spending a lot of money at the moment, but in 3 years, they will be in the clear. This is one of the things that frustrate me about the criticism that the Knicks just throw money at the problem. Well, sort of, that ship sailed the minute the Knicks committed to Stat, Melo and Chandler. Now, the only significant way the Knicks can get better is to throw money at the problem. In this case, throwing money at the problem isn't a vice, it's a virtue.
   1130. bob gee Posted: July 16, 2012 at 10:16 AM (#4183682)
der k - i know of some of what hollinger's done (PER specifically), and if i hear his opinion on something, i'll usually give it some weight. i had read dean oliver's book way back when, but never knew of alley oop - i was strictly an r.s.bb'er back then.

   1131. billyshears Posted: July 16, 2012 at 10:18 AM (#4183685)
I don't think the Knicks have ANY chance to win the title (or "seriously contend") with Lin or Felton. They are just not nearly as good as Miami.


Ok. So what? Are the Knicks supposed to operate differently if they have no chance at winning the title, rather than a slim one? Should they just sign minimum salary players and wait it out for three years?
   1132. Conor Posted: July 16, 2012 at 10:23 AM (#4183689)
But mostly irrelevant, if I understand the way the NBA does these things. If 1 billion people in China log on to NBA.com and buy a Lin Rockets jersey, the Knicks will see just as much money (1/30 of total) as they would from 1 billion Knicks Lin Jerseys.


Yeah. And I'm guessing they wouldn;'t be able to negotiate their own TV deal with China either, or anything like that. I'm sure they could raise ticket prices though.

MSG stock is up 25% since Linsanity started. I wonder how much stock (terrible pun intended) you can put in that as something Lin contributed to. It closed at $29.32 on 2/3, before Lin took off, and went up $4 in less than 3 weeks. Lin must've had at least something to do with that. Whether or not that is sustainable is a different story.

But to me, the fact that they can use the stretch provision on Lin makes this whole thing a no brainer.
   1133. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: July 16, 2012 at 10:28 AM (#4183693)
Ok. So what? Are the Knicks supposed to operate differently if they have no chance at winning the title, rather than a slim one? Should they just sign minimum salary players and wait it out for three years?


The should trade Joe Johnson's Amare Stoudamire's contract to Brooklyn.
   1134. Joel W Posted: July 16, 2012 at 10:41 AM (#4183703)
Likewise, MSG is off 1.75% today, compared to the market being off .5% as a whole.
   1135. JC in DC Posted: July 16, 2012 at 10:43 AM (#4183705)
If the stretch thing is the case, then maybe do it. My point isn't so much what to do with Lin, but whether the decision they make on Lin is OHMYGOD evidence that the team is being run (more) poorly than in the past. I don't know what to make of the Grunwald era yet. He apparently was the guy on Chandler, right, a deal which nearly everyone thinks a good one. I don't mind the Felton in/Lin out one on basketball terms, b/c I don't think Lin is that much better to justify the costs (in both cases, I think they're a 3-4-5 team in the East).

I agree with AROM: we need major changes to be a serious contender. I want, like all Knicks fans here, I think, to be a serious contender. That's not happening next year, with or without Lin.
   1136. Conor Posted: July 16, 2012 at 10:49 AM (#4183711)
I think Grunwald has done a very good job since taking over.

but whether the decision they make on Lin is OHMYGOD evidence that the team is being run (more) poorly than in the past.



I don't think there is any way the team is being run more poorly than in the past. The Isiah era Knicks were probably the worst run team in the history of the league? (Or at least recent history).
   1137. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 16, 2012 at 11:06 AM (#4183725)
JC, I don't get how you don't see that literally the ONLY HARM of a Lin deal is less money in Dolan's pockets. It does not hurt the team's flexibility or ability to do anything else. There is NO REASON (other than money) not to do it and considering some of the #### the franchise has spent money on in the past it is absolutely asinine to choose THIS moment to suddenly say "wait a second, we're fiscally conservative."
   1138. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 16, 2012 at 11:11 AM (#4183728)
But mostly irrelevant, if I understand the way the NBA does these things. If 1 billion people in China log on to NBA.com and buy a Lin Rockets jersey, the Knicks will see just as much money (1/30 of total) as they would from 1 billion Knicks Lin Jerseys.

Marketing <> jerseys only. There's advertisements in the stadium, local television contracts (and in the case of MSG, I assume the Knicks own a piece of that so higher ratings equals higher ad revenue), and partnerships with local or in the case of Asia, non-local businesses. Stuff that smart business people - and no matter what we think of the Knicks basketball decisions, they are an extremely successful business - can and will take advantage of.

I'm in the camp of people saying the Knicks should match. Wasn't it BPro that did an article showing that people who had as good of a stretch as Lin had were usually not flukes? Even if he's not a max player, he's worth this non-max deal for all of the reasons listed above.
   1139. bob gee Posted: July 16, 2012 at 11:18 AM (#4183735)
lin's added value:

for those not in the nyc area, msg was playing their usual hardball with time warner cable. MSG was off of time warner, and they wanted a lot more money in their new contract. time warner wasn't giving in, and it looked like it would be a long holdout.

then linsanity happened. TWC started getting lots of complaints about not being able to watch the new sensation (lin). people were going to bars, friends' houses in other towns, streaming over the internet, etc. to get the knicks games. i had friends asking me about him since i had seen the games (including his disastrous celtics game)

time warner caved. and it mainly due to lin.

btw, anyone know if it's true that the knicks told lin to be quiet and not talk about how serious his injury was until playoff ticket sales were locked up? i heard that rumor a while back, never asked my usual contacts if it was true.


edit: i think time warner had a long, like year long, blackout of buffalo sabres games in that area? i don't remember the details.

   1140. The District Attorney Posted: July 16, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4183740)
Bringing in Kidd, Felton, and extending Novak seem foolish in hindsight in that it now impacts their ability to resign Lin.
The great part would be if the uproar now changes Dolan's mind, they do bring back Lin, and now they have three PG-only players and even more luxury tax liability. Regardless of whether they ultimately match Lin or not, why the HELL would you not just wait three more days on the Felton thing.

Someone on Knickerblogger pointed out the Knicks could use the stretch provision on Lin, which would allow them to waive him after the second year and spread the remaining $15 million over three years, which severely limits the luxury tax hit.
Faced with the choice of 1) losing Lin now, 2) giving him an insane balloon payment in three years, or 3) keeping him for two years and THEN losing him. I'm not at all sure that #3 isn't the worst of all of them. Who's that gonna make happy?
   1141. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 16, 2012 at 11:25 AM (#4183742)
Based on what I know of / have seen from Lin, they should match. But we shouldn't discount the possibility that they don't think he's that good.

EDIT: What Conor says about option 3.
   1142. Conor Posted: July 16, 2012 at 11:30 AM (#4183751)
Faced with the choice of 1) losing Lin now, 2) giving him an insane balloon payment in three years, or 3) keeping him for two years and THEN losing him. I'm not at all sure that #3 isn't the worst of all of them. Who's that gonna make happy?


If he's not that good and you don't want to take the huge luxury tax hit then you do that. If he's good, then you obviously keep him.
   1143. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 16, 2012 at 11:44 AM (#4183771)
Regardless of whether they ultimately match Lin or not, why the HELL would you not just wait three more days on the Felton thing.

When you have the opportunity to sign an out of shape, overweight PG who was never better than "solid" to begin with and was incredibly bad last year before he challenged the hometown fans of his last team to fight him in his apartment complex to a 3 year deal after trading away your 2nd round draft pick for this year and a future 2nd rounder as well as paying some of Jared Jeffries' outgoing salary...well, you jump at that.
   1144. tshipman Posted: July 16, 2012 at 11:55 AM (#4183781)
This page has been sort of interesting. At first, JC was convincing me: I'm not that big on Lin, and at some point you need to knock it off with these contracts. But NJ's points are also well taken: the sort of out there scenario that Lin improves on his performance from last year is the only real shot the Knicks have at being really good (at least ECF contenders).

I don't think the Knicks are title contenders with or without Lin, though, so that makes me a bit in the mushy middle with this. Is there value to the Knicks in winning 50 games for the first time in forever?


For those who seem to think it’s a good idea/defensible that the Knicks not match Lin…what would you have the team do instead to improve itself?


Go back in time and amnesty Stoudemire instead.
   1145. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 16, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4183804)
Is there value to the Knicks in winning 50 games for the first time in forever?

Yes, and not just because there's a new gunslinger in town.

Have we talked about how old the Knicks are getting? It was only a few years ago when they were the 7th youngest team in the league (by one measure), but now...
   1146. jmurph Posted: July 16, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4183822)
Awesomely, and perhaps predictably, Screamin A. is currently reporting that Dolan is having second thoughts about letting Lin go.
   1147. Conor Posted: July 16, 2012 at 12:35 PM (#4183840)
I don't think the Knicks are title contenders with or without Lin, though, so that makes me a bit in the mushy middle with this. Is there value to the Knicks in winning 50 games for the first time in forever?


I think there is, both to me as a fan, and to Dolan. I said before their only real chance to win a title is if Lin is something close to what he showed this year, and I understand that is very unlikely to happen, but as fans, you at least want to have hope, you know? The Knicks had been so awful for so long that I forgot how awesome it was to go to important Knicks games at the Garden. I've been to a bunch over the last year or so, and it's awesome. I went to one right in the middle of the Linsanity period; they killed the Kings and it was one of the more fun sporting events I have ever been to. Lin threw a bunch of alley oops in the first quarter and it was just the coolest thing ever. Deep down I know Miami is better, and i know that assuming Rose comes back and is healthy, Chicago will be better as well, but there is something to them at least being in the conversation.

Also, if I could be convinced passing on Lin is somehow going help the Knicks in the future that would be one thing. It would make it easier to swallow, but I don't see how that is the case.
   1148. Jimmy P Posted: July 16, 2012 at 12:39 PM (#4183850)
Deep down I know Miami is better, and i know that assuming Rose comes back and is healthy, Chicago will be better as well, but there is something to them at least being in the conversation.


True. But, if Rose isn't healthy this year and Wade and/or Bosh gets hurt, the East opens up.

   1149. billyshears Posted: July 16, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4183864)
Go back in time and amnesty Stoudemire instead.


Yeah, this. In an alternate universe, the Knicks don't amnesty Billups, miss out on Chandler and then sign Dwight Howard and Chris Paul/Deron Williams this offseason. That would clearly have been better.
   1150. JC in DC Posted: July 16, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4183865)
Alright: I'm convinced and will sign the authorization papers.
   1151. Manny Coon Posted: July 16, 2012 at 01:00 PM (#4183888)
The great part would be if the uproar now changes Dolan's mind, they do bring back Lin, and now they have three PG-only players and even more luxury tax liability.


Could Lin and Kidd play together? Kidd has the size to defend at SG, would Lin be any good in the type of role Barea or Terry played in Dallas?
   1152. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 16, 2012 at 01:00 PM (#4183889)
Not a surprise, 1146. In fact, I bet the outrage is enough to make the Knicks match.
   1153. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 16, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4183893)
Yeah, this. In an alternate universe, the Knicks don't amnesty Billups, miss out on Chandler and then sign Dwight Howard and Chris Paul/Deron Williams this offseason. That would clearly have been better.

And as I pointed out a million times, impossible unless both took significant pay cuts.
   1154. Conor Posted: July 16, 2012 at 01:09 PM (#4183901)
And as I pointed out a million times, impossible unless both took significant pay cuts.


I think the idea would've been to then amnesty Amare. It would've worked then, right? The only big salary guy they would've had was Melo; so they probably could've done it with slight pay cuts? I don't feel like totally working out all the math, but Melo is making $19 million this year. I'm not sure where the starting salaries for those guys would've been this off-season, but they probably could've gotten somewhere close.

Or I'm totally wrong
   1155. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 16, 2012 at 01:12 PM (#4183905)
True. But, if Rose isn't healthy this year and Wade and/or Bosh gets hurt, the East opens up.

So if they get very lucky with injuries, they have what, the 3rd or 4th best chance of making the Finals of the teams in the East?
   1156. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: July 16, 2012 at 01:12 PM (#4183906)
I went to one right in the middle of the Linsanity period; they killed the Kings and it was one of the more fun sporting events I have ever been to. Lin threw a bunch of alley oops in the first quarter and it was just the coolest thing ever.

Totally, right? I took my celtics-obsessed fiance to that game, her first game at MSG, after going to tons of big Celts game over the last few years when she lived in Boston. The whole time in Boston, I kept telling her, "they're right about the new building killing the atmosphere at Celtics games, because this is nothing like MSG, and this is the [Finals/ECF, etc...]"

And her position always was, you're a homer, the "new garden" is loud, etc etc.

Then she went to that Kings game and about 5 minutes in, she turns to me and says, and I quote, "this is ####### crazy."

Jeremy Lin did that for Knicks fans . . . against the shitty, good-for-nothing Kings.

There's no basketball reason to get rid of Lin, and he was the one fun thing about the Knicks in 10 goddamned years. If they let him walk, I'm done.

   1157. billyshears Posted: July 16, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4183907)
I think the idea would've been to then amnesty Amare. It would've worked then, right? The only big salary guy they would've had was Melo; so they probably could've done it with slight pay cuts? I don't feel like totally working out all the math, but Melo is making $19 million this year. I'm not sure where the starting salaries for those guys would've been this off-season, but they probably could've gotten somewhere close.


Yeah, this was my thought. In that scenario, I think they would have had to take less than max, but not much less than max. I'm also too lazy (and, all appearances to the contrary, busy) to do the math.
   1158. Conor Posted: July 16, 2012 at 01:18 PM (#4183916)
So if they get very lucky with injuries, they have what, the 3rd or 4th best chance of making the Finals of the teams in the East?


I'm sure I'm overrating them, since I'm a Knicks fan and probably a homer, but I think with Lin they would have about the third or fourth best chance of making the finals out of the east straight up. Miami is clearly better, and Chicago, with a healthy Rose is as well. But I see them as being right there with the other teams; so I guess Boston and Indy, right? (if Dwight ends up with the Nets at some point that will of course change it. Hawks will probably take a step back without Johnson. Am I forgetting anyone else?)

They will be a very old team, but they should have some decent depth, assuming Lin is back with them. And the downside is just Dolan spends some more of the money he hasn't really earned. This is the same guy who paid Larry Brown $40 million to NOT coach his team. So it doesn't bother me all that much.
   1159. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 16, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4183921)
I think the idea would've been to then amnesty Amare. It would've worked then, right? The only big salary guy they would've had was Melo; so they probably could've done it with slight pay cuts? I don't feel like totally working out all the math, but Melo is making $19 million this year. I'm not sure where the starting salaries for those guys would've been this off-season, but they probably could've gotten somewhere close.

No, they would have still needed to accept pay cuts. Howard is making $19.5 this year, Paul $17.8 (Williams too, I think) and Melo $20.5. The salary cap for next year is $58.004, which is just $200k more than those 3. Due to cap holds (nearly a million each for 9 roster spots), between the 2 of the new guys, they'd have to cut over $7mil off their salary in the first year*. And the rest of the roster would be only minimum guys (the various exceptions come into play depending on the order of signings, etc).

The reasons it worked for Miami and were never going to work anywhere else is because it was 3 guys at the same time (with 1 resigning) and the pay cut (minor, taken by Wade) cancelled out by the lack of state income tax.

*And considering the raises each year are max percentages, the total contract would be even lower. I'm too lazy to do that math, but it's easily over 8 figures for the life of the deal.
   1160. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 16, 2012 at 01:28 PM (#4183930)
Then she went to that Kings game and about 5 minutes in, she turns to me and says, and I quote, "this is ####### crazy."

Jeremy Lin did that for Knicks fans . . . against the shitty, good-for-nothing Kings.


That's not going to happen at any game this season, though.
   1161. JJ1986 Posted: July 16, 2012 at 01:29 PM (#4183931)
They wouldn't have been able to sign both of them outright, but couldn't they have done it by sending a bunch of assets to Orlando for Dwight? If you get Lin and Fields to agree to a S&T there it should have been possible.
   1162. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 16, 2012 at 01:33 PM (#4183940)
They wouldn't have been able to sign both of them outright, but couldn't they have done it by sending a bunch of assets to Orlando for Dwight? If you get Lin and Fields to agree to a S&T there it should have been possible.

That's why I said virtually impossible. That's a lot to hope for, with very few assets. And if nothing else, amnestying Amare may have an impact on other stars wanting to play there. Outside of him and Melo, it's not like guys are lining to play for the Knicks.

In this case, since both Howard and Paul/Williams would need the S&T to get their max deal, the old teams actually have some leverage, which has never really been the case before with a FA signing (I guess Nash to the Lakers this year is one, and that was still 2 first round picks).
   1163. Spivey Posted: July 16, 2012 at 01:35 PM (#4183941)
True. But, if Rose isn't healthy this year and Wade and/or Bosh gets hurt, the East opens up.

The playoffs have more randomness to them than people seem to think, too. Dallas won 2 years ago. Halfway into the Miami/Indiana series, people were seriously saying that Indiana was too balanced for Miami. Indiana was up in that series 3-2. There's no shame in building a team how Indiana did. I think improving is usually the right method of approach, and blowing up the team usually isn't. Though I don't think the Knicks can blow up their team anyways, so I agree with those arguing to match.

For the Knicks, what's Stoudemire's health look like? If he reverted to playing like he did when he started with the Knicks this is a team that could be dangerous.
   1164. Conor Posted: July 16, 2012 at 01:37 PM (#4183946)
I haven't really heard anything about Amare. He's had back issues the last 2 years now, which doesn't seem like a good sign. He was playing very well in the month or so before he got the back injury this year as well. He probably isn't as bad as he was for th e entirety of last season, but I'm not sure how good he will be
   1165. Jimmy P Posted: July 16, 2012 at 02:02 PM (#4183981)
Nate Silver's analysis of the Lin extension.

If you don't want to read, he says to keep Lin.
   1166. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 16, 2012 at 02:07 PM (#4183987)

The playoffs have more randomness to them than people seem to think, too. Dallas won 2 years ago. Halfway into the Miami/Indiana series, people were seriously saying that Indiana was too balanced for Miami. Indiana was up in that series 3-2. There's no shame in building a team how Indiana did. I think improving is usually the right method of approach, and blowing up the team usually isn't. Though I don't think the Knicks can blow up their team anyways, so I agree with those arguing to match.


Boston was up 3-2, not Indiana. and people get too caught up in what happens from game to game in playoff series, especially from the 2nd round onward. Every game gets magnified into a microcosm of why team X that just won is better than team Y who just lost. Then team Y wins the next game and the media narrative often completely changes. Never mind that the Heat won games 4-6 by an average of 17 points.

That Dallas team started the season 24-5 with everyone healthy and finished 31-11 to win 57 games, tying them for second in the West. They were 55-18 (a 62 win pace) when Dirk played. Just because we didn't take them as seriously as a contender as we should have doesn't mean they were "random". Using them as an example of how a team like the Knicks might luck into the Finals doesn't make a lot of sense to me. There's a big difference between a team like Dallas in 2011 and a team like the Knicks who are well below the top two in the East and likely a step behind at least two other teams as well.

I suppose stranger things have happened, but...
   1167. andrewberg Posted: July 16, 2012 at 02:08 PM (#4183989)
Indiana was up in that series 3-2.


Well, 2-1, but your point stands. Indiana was and is good. The other nice thing about building around a larger core is that losing one guy has a smaller effect.
   1168. The District Attorney Posted: July 16, 2012 at 02:25 PM (#4184015)
Nate "Duke" Silver:
As of late Monday morning, on the mere possibility that Lin might not be re-signed, MSG stock had lost about $50 million in market value — roughly as much as the salary and luxury tax that the Knicks would need to keep the dream alive for the next three years.
If you needed a burning bush or other sign from God...
   1169. jmurph Posted: July 16, 2012 at 02:43 PM (#4184049)
As of late Monday morning, on the mere possibility that Lin might not be re-signed, MSG stock had lost about $50 million in market value — roughly as much as the salary and luxury tax that the Knicks would need to keep the dream alive for the next three years.


I think the NJ/JC in DC discussion on how well the team is being run is going to be much more interesting in like 6 hours when it's announced that of course they're bringing Lin back, it was always their plan to match the offer sheet and have 3 point guards on the roster.
   1170. JC in DC Posted: July 16, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4184056)
I think the NJ/JC in DC discussion on how well the team is being run is going to be much more interesting in like 6 hours when it's announced that of course they're bringing Lin back, it was always their plan to match the offer sheet and have 3 point guards on the roster.


You can never have too many PGs!
   1171. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 16, 2012 at 02:54 PM (#4184061)
You can never have too many PGs!

JC is David Kahn, apparently.

   1172. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 16, 2012 at 03:06 PM (#4184073)
The Knicks are going to have 2 PGs on the court at all times (until Shumpert gets back), but Melo is going to be the primary ballhandler. Right?
   1173. Booey Posted: July 16, 2012 at 03:07 PM (#4184074)
And if nothing else, amnestying Amare may have an impact on other stars wanting to play there. Outside of him and Melo, it's not like guys are lining to play for the Knicks.


That's cuz they've been terrible for a decade and everyone knows they have some of the worst management in the league. To get players the caliber of Melo and Amar'e without even being good enough to entice them with the possibility of winning a ring has to speak something about their desireability. If they were an actual contender, I don't think they'd have too much trouble finding players that wanted to play for them.

If a decade plus of poor performance and bad management has dropped them to "only" the 5th or 6th most desireable location in the league rather than number 1 or 2, well, they should consider themselves lucky.

   1174. andrewberg Posted: July 16, 2012 at 03:14 PM (#4184084)
JC is David Kahn, apparently.


By my count, we're back up to 5! Rubio, Ridnour, Barea, Shved, Malcolm Lee. At least the last 3 are sort of combo guards.
   1175. Booey Posted: July 16, 2012 at 03:15 PM (#4184085)
The playoffs have more randomness to them than people seem to think, too. Dallas won 2 years ago.


I don't know. I've been watching the NBA for over 20 years and only two champs seem even somewhat "random" to me: the 2006 Heat and the 2011 Mavs (both got swept in the first round the following season). The 2004 Pistons felt kinda random at the time but obviously proved they weren't in subsequent seasons.

So yeah, I wouldn't count on another "random" champion happening anytime soon. And even the two mentioned above were both clearly better than the current Knicks.

   1176. AROM Posted: July 16, 2012 at 03:19 PM (#4184092)
It's not like they've collected a bunch of Bareas. Lin is 6'3 and Kidd is 6'4, so both can defend most shooting guards in the league. If Knicks match on Lin they can play any combination of their 3 PGs together.

I don't see them as an old team. Chandler and Amare will be 30, Carmelo 28, Smith 27, Lin 24, and Shumpert 22. Camby and Kidd are ancient, but they are just backups. The team would not look much different if either of them got hurt and wasn't able to play.

It will be interesting to see which team in the NY area is better this year. I'd predict NYK-BRO to battle for the 5-6 seeds. Miami is a clear #1 going in, with Chicago, Boston, and Indiana rounding out the first round HFA teams.

Sixers moves seem more latteral than any clear improvement or decline. They should still be in the playoffs. Last spot really depends on where Dwight ends up. If the Magic can't find a trade for him and decide to go for it they could conceivable be the #2 team. Or a trade for draft picks could knock them out of the playoffs entirely.

Atlanta seems like they are on the way down, but might hold on to #8. If they can get Dwight, that changes big time. Milwaukee will be in the hunt if neither of these teams is a contender. I like the direction of the Wizards, but they are still probably a year away from the playoffs.
   1177. AROM Posted: July 16, 2012 at 03:25 PM (#4184100)
I don't know. I've been watching the NBA for over 20 years and only two champs seem even somewhat "random" to me: the 2006 Heat and the 2011 Mavs (both got swept in the first round the following season). The 2004 Pistons felt kinda random at the time but obviously proved they weren't in subsequent seasons.


I was thinking back on how big a deal Pat Riley's repeat proclamation was in 1987. Nobody had done it since Bill Russell retired. Then after the Lakers, nothing but repeats and threepeats* for more than a decade. Lakers-Pistons-Bulls-Rockets-Bulls. Then came San Antonio, the bane of repeats. They couldn't stop Kobe-Shaq, but otherwise single-handedly prevented any repeat champion by not only not defending any of their 4 crowns, they stopped the Pistons from a repeat in 2005.

*Mr Riley, my check is in the mail.
   1178. andrewberg Posted: July 16, 2012 at 03:28 PM (#4184102)
a bunch of Bareas


Great fantasy team name.

Or 6' and under league team.
   1179. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 16, 2012 at 03:35 PM (#4184111)
That's cuz they've been terrible for a decade and everyone knows they have some of the worst management in the league. To get players the caliber of Melo and Amar'e without even being good enough to entice them with the possibility of winning a ring has to speak something about their desireability. If they were an actual contender, I don't think they'd have too much trouble finding players that wanted to play for them.

The point is that Knicks fans shouldn't pretend that they missed out on some sort of realistic scenario that would have gotten them their own big 3. It wasn't going to happen for many reasons.
   1180. Booey Posted: July 16, 2012 at 03:40 PM (#4184118)
Then came San Antonio, the bane of repeats. They couldn't stop Kobe-Shaq, but otherwise single-handedly prevented any repeat champion by not only not defending any of their 4 crowns, they stopped the Pistons from a repeat in 2005.


Yeah, the NBA loves their dynasties. But we've still seen a Lakers 3-peat and a Lakers repeat since the Spurs broke the trend in '99. And of course the Heat have a good shot at starting the trend back up next season.

MLB's last repeat was the Yankees from '98-'00. Before that it was the Blue Jays in '92-'93. It never happened in the '80's, though it was pretty common in the '70's (A's, Reds, Yanks).

I don't really follow the other sports much, but I assume the NFL's last repeat was the Pats, right? I have no idea about the NHL.
   1181. Booey Posted: July 16, 2012 at 03:41 PM (#4184119)
#1179- Gotcha. And true.
   1182. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 16, 2012 at 04:13 PM (#4184153)

This is a strange argument. They should just keep the approach they've used so unsuccessfully since Isiah was running the team? Overpay the talent. This didn't work for them before. Why would I think it will work now?


Not sure I'd refer to any of the guys Isiaah brought in as "talent."
   1183. starving to death with a full STEAGLES Posted: July 16, 2012 at 04:40 PM (#4184176)
Sixers moves seem more latteral than any clear improvement or decline. They should still be in the playoffs. Last spot really depends on where Dwight ends up. If the Magic can't find a trade for him and decide to go for it they could conceivable be the #2 team. Or a trade for draft picks could knock them out of the playoffs entirely.
i'd put my money on the sixers being in the mid-late lottery. lou williams and elton brand were the most consistent scorers for the team last year, and after losing them this offseason, they've replaced brand with kwame brown, and i guess they plan on giving lou williams minutes to nick young. they've also lost jodie meeks, and while he wasn't exactly good, and while they seem to have replaced him with nick young and dorell wright, that's not exactly a massive improvement.


i thought brand and lou were really good glue guys, and unless jrue holiday and/or evan turner take a great leap forward, i don't see the sixers breaking .500, and i'd probably put the over/under for them at 34 games.
   1184. smileyy Posted: July 16, 2012 at 04:52 PM (#4184187)
When "Nick Young" is listed under "Additions" in a team's offseason analysis, they're doing something wrong.
   1185. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 16, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4184201)
not to nitpick (okay, totally to nitpick), but i'm not sure how brand could be one of your two most consistent scorers. here's the points/36 min for the top 9 guys on philly last year.

player    fga  fg3pa  3pfta  ft%  pts 
Williams 16.7 .407 4.9 .362 6.2 .812 20.5 
Young___ 14.1 .507 0.1 .250 3.0 .771 16.6 
Holiday_ 13.7 .432 2.8 .380 2.0 .783 14.4 
Hawes___ 12.5 .489 0.5 .250 2.2 .727 13.9 
Brand___ 12.1 .494 0.0 .000 2.4 .733 13.7 
Turner__ 12.4 .446 1.0 .224 2.3 .676 12.8 
Iguodala 10.3 .454 3.1 .394 3.2 .617 12.6 
Vucevic_ 12.9 .450 0.4 .375 1.5 .529 12.5 
Meeks___ 10.2 .409 5.8 .365 1.9 .906 12.2 

Young would have to be #2, right? Or is your argument that he's too matchup dependent...

***

While I'm also not big on Nick Young, I can see why this team thought they needed a scorer - 'cause they do.
   1186. JJ1986 Posted: July 16, 2012 at 05:52 PM (#4184221)
Aaron Brooks to the Kings. I guess they don't want Tyreke Evans playing in the backcourt.
   1187. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 16, 2012 at 05:55 PM (#4184224)
The Kings, I mean, wow.
   1188. andrewberg Posted: July 16, 2012 at 06:10 PM (#4184235)
The Kings have one really good thing going for them- Boogie Cousins. Evans might be a second good thing, but the uncertainty means that whatever they build should play to Cousins' strengths. With that in mind, it seems counter-intuitive to have so many ball-stoppers. Evans is actually an ok distributor as a SF if his role doesn't change too drastically, but playing him next to Thomas, Brooks, and Cousins seems to minimize the talents of their best players. I guess the price is right, though.

The Kings have built an impressive lineage of shoot-first PGs from White Chocolate, through Bobby Jackson, Mike Bibby, Reke, Thomas, and now Brooks.
   1189. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 16, 2012 at 06:17 PM (#4184243)
The thing that surprised me about Brooks to the Kings is that they were willing to go with a second waterbug type.

I thought Evans was going to play the two this year.
   1190. Booey Posted: July 16, 2012 at 06:42 PM (#4184260)
The Kings have one really good thing going for them- Boogie Cousins.


Are you implying skepticism about The Jimmer's chances of becoming the next big NBA star?! ;-)
   1191. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 16, 2012 at 06:52 PM (#4184271)
Rick bonnell (Charlotte observer) hears that Jamison will go to LAL.
   1192. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 16, 2012 at 06:58 PM (#4184275)
   1193. andrewberg Posted: July 16, 2012 at 07:00 PM (#4184277)
It seems like one of Jamison's virtues is that he can maintain efficiency at a higher usage rate. Limiting him to a small role seems to take away that advantage. I guess he's still a large step up from McBob and Murph.
   1194. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: July 16, 2012 at 07:10 PM (#4184285)
The stupid Korver trade is finally done. It's just Korver to the Hawks for nothing, he goes into their TPE and the Bulls now have a $5mil TPE. Potentially dumb, but we have a year to find out. Saves the Bulls, I mean Jerry, $500K.
   1195. The District Attorney Posted: July 16, 2012 at 07:16 PM (#4184294)
   1196. rr Posted: July 16, 2012 at 07:44 PM (#4184326)
I have never been a Jamison fan, as I said when CLE got him as the "final piece." I can see the logic--floor spacing, and he can rotate with Gasol and Bynum. But it gives them another old guy with defensive issues, if they actually do it.

I think McRoberts may be able to cotribute something this year; IMO Nash will help him.
   1197. GregD Posted: July 16, 2012 at 09:29 PM (#4184389)
Watch out, NBA! The final piece to the puzzle!

Knicks add Chris Copeland
   1198. King Mekong Posted: July 17, 2012 at 12:06 AM (#4184503)
Mayo to Dallas
   1199. Tripon Posted: July 17, 2012 at 03:44 AM (#4184556)
The Knicks are going to pay Jason Kidd and Raymond Felton 20 million over three years. Why exactly is this better than Lin at 25 million?

Don't the Knicks have to pay the salary tax on Kidd and Felton just as much as any possible Lin contract?
   1200. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 17, 2012 at 06:50 AM (#4184568)
The Knicks are going to pay Jason Kidd and Raymond Felton 20 million over three years. Why exactly is this better than Lin at 25 million?

Kidd is a veteran who will provide leadership and mentoring to the Knicks' younger players. As for Felton, the Knicks are in win-now mode and they need a starting PG with playoff experience as opposed to someone untested like Lin.
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