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Monday, July 02, 2012

OT: NBA basketball July Thread 2012

I estimate that only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what the site is really about: Jim Furtado trolling his own site when he’s bored.

Tripon Posted: July 02, 2012 at 04:21 PM | 2487 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball

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   1301. PJ Martinez Posted: July 18, 2012 at 08:59 AM (#4185835)
"That was a haahd foul!!!"
   1302. AROM Posted: July 18, 2012 at 09:43 AM (#4185868)
So... if you're an under the cap team (and I say this generically, obviously actual rosters make a big difference here), do you look at:


Blatche - No way. I'd rather hold a tryout for overlooked, undrafted college guys looking to prove themselves than consider this guy for 14th man. Bad attitude, out of shape - he's got to prove he still wants to be a player before I give him a chance. Let him play in a minor league or overseas to prove that.

Anderson - I like his game, but I need to be convinced he's innocent of the charges.

There are plenty of other end of the bench options.
   1303. Spivey Posted: July 18, 2012 at 09:47 AM (#4185872)
I like Birdman's game, so if I was confident his personal stuff wasn't an issue I'd want him.
   1304. jmurph Posted: July 18, 2012 at 09:50 AM (#4185877)
* Blatche? - requires a three year deal, for at least the minimum.


I'm generally not huge on intangibles, but this guy really seems like he's not worth whatever basketball you're going to get out of him. Let him prove it somewhere else for 2-3 years before giving him another chance. If that means you miss out on a bargain, so be it.
   1305. JJ1986 Posted: July 18, 2012 at 09:53 AM (#4185880)
Since my fiance is such a big Celts fan, this is an easy call for me. I'm already looking forward to the mellifluous tones of Tommy Heinsohn filling my apartment this fall.


My girlfriend is a Celtics fan, but I don't think I could ever choose to root for a team featuring Paul Pierce.

I'll pick the Nuggets and maybe watch the Rockets depending on how their roster looks in October.
   1306. JC in DC Posted: July 18, 2012 at 10:23 AM (#4185904)
My loyalty is to the Knicks, and not Jeremy Lin, or Anthony, or Gallinari, or Bernard King (though this last one is pretty close to a competitor). I'll continue to root for NY and hope (against hope?) that Grunwald knows what he's doing. That this wasn't a Dolan-driven decision, and that we get a rebound from Felton that makes him a good value and good contributor to NY's success this year.

   1307. Booey Posted: July 18, 2012 at 10:29 AM (#4185909)
I’m a transplanted New Yorker and have been living in Los Angeles since 1998. I love it here; I love Los Angeles more than any city in the world. I’m proud to say I’m converting to Laker fandom. I look forward to getting to know you all and to falling in love with the Purple and Gold!


Knicks fans are so deprived that they're actually selling their souls now for a taste of success? ;-)
   1308. billyshears Posted: July 18, 2012 at 10:37 AM (#4185917)
Not the Lakers. Sith Lords get the cool costumes and all that, but have some pride. Real fans cheer for loser teams (says the Wolves fan).


Well, two things:

1. I took the Magic/Lakers side of the Bird-Magic, Celtics-Lakers rivalry in the 80s, and that stuck a bit.
2. In the 1996 draft, I was begging for the Knicks to package 2 of their 3 first round picks (17, 18 and 21) to move up to take Kobe or Nash. I've always rooted for Kobe and Nash so as to prove myself right. Now that they're both on the same team, seems like an easy fit. But the Knicks ended up with John Wallace, Walter McCarty and Dontae Jones, so that worked out almost as well.
   1309. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 18, 2012 at 10:45 AM (#4185925)
Knicks fans are so deprived that they're actually selling their souls now for a taste of success? ;-)

Knicks fans have souls? ;-)
   1310. JC in DC Posted: July 18, 2012 at 10:50 AM (#4185929)
Knicks fans have souls? ;-)


Our Faustian bargain got us Ewing. Didn't quite work out as well as we'd hoped.
   1311. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 18, 2012 at 10:55 AM (#4185945)
Serious question: is it fair to equate the Knicks with the Cubs? There are differences, but...

***

I likely don't tab Dray either, but it'd be a defensible move for somebody. I don't thinkhe's *that* bad a guy.
As for Andersen - I'd need a PI on the case or something first. Otherwise, I prefer him to, say, Camby.
   1312. billyshears Posted: July 18, 2012 at 10:59 AM (#4185949)
My loyalty is to the Knicks, and not Jeremy Lin, or Anthony, or Gallinari, or Bernard King (though this last one is pretty close to a competitor). I'll continue to root for NY and hope (against hope?) that Grunwald knows what he's doing. That this wasn't a Dolan-driven decision, and that we get a rebound from Felton that makes him a good value and good contributor to NY's success this year.


I hear you. I doubt I'll be able to quit the Knicks forever. But the following things happened, in order, this offseason:

1. The Knicks refused to offer Lin the max, telling him he should set the market by getting offers from other teams.
2. The Knicks signed Novak, Kidd and Camby to deals that cost about $9 mil in 2014-2015.
3. The Knicks stated they would "absolutely" match the terms of Lin's reported offer sheet, which would pay him $10 mil in 2014-2015.
4. Jeremy Lin signed an offer sheet (that differed from the reported offer sheet), which would pay him $15 mil in 2014-2015
5. The Knicks traded for Raymond Felton and agreed to pay him around $4 mil in 2014-205.
6. The Knicks didn't match Lin's offer.

Basically, the Knicks were completely prepared to commit to $19 mil in 2014-2015 for Lin, Novak, Kidd, and Camby. Is the marginal difference between $19 mil and $24 mil for those guys in 2014-2015 really just a bridge too far? I mean, they did commit to $13 mil in 2014-2015 for Felton, Novak, Kidd and Camby.

If they really thought Felton was better, that's fine, but why not try to trade Lin in that case? Would a Lin, Chandler, Shumpert, draft picks offer have been enough to get Howard? I'm not sure, but I think it gets you in the conversation.

The fact that they never once tried to trade Lin (by all reports) and that they were "absolutely" prepared to spend almost as much in 2014-2015 as they would have actually had to spend to keep Lin tells me that they were caught completely off guard by the actual offer sheet and that this was Dolan acting out in spite. I just can't support a team that is so comfortable giving their fans the finger for no particularly good reason.
   1313. JJ1986 Posted: July 18, 2012 at 10:59 AM (#4185951)
Serious question: is it fair to equate the Knicks with the Cubs? There are differences, but...


I think the Orioles are a closer match. Great success 40 years ago. Some success in the 1990s. Didn't fail because of budgets, but because of horrible talent evaluation.
   1314. Joel W Posted: July 18, 2012 at 11:01 AM (#4185959)
@1311,

I tweeted this the other day, but I think the Knicks, Cubs, and Maple Leafs are basically the same. Rabid fans that make it easy for the team's management to do their job poorly. I was trying to think of the same for football.
   1315. JJ1986 Posted: July 18, 2012 at 11:02 AM (#4185962)
I was trying to think of the same for football.


Skins
   1316. JC in DC Posted: July 18, 2012 at 11:03 AM (#4185963)
Billy: In all honesty, I don't know. But this decision is not the deal-breaker for me.

And, I don't know which recent horrible team to compare NY to, but it's unfortunate that's what it's come to. I do have to say that as a Raiders fan, I keep thinking of Dolan as Al Davis, evil version, that is, the Al Davis minus the football genius and success. Davis obliged us and died. Can we hope for the same from Dolan?
   1317. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 18, 2012 at 11:07 AM (#4185970)
And, I don't know which recent horrible team to compare NY to, but it's unfortunate that's what it's come to. I do have to say that as a Raiders fan, I keep thinking of Dolan as Al Davis, evil version, that is, the Al Davis minus the football genius and success. Davis obliged us and died. Can we hope for the same from Dolan?

There was a point on Sunday when I found myself googling Dolan to figure out how old he was so I could guesstimate how long he had left to live. I felt a little ashamed and went to Knickerblogger to confess this and saw that another poster went a step further and added/subtracted years from Dolan's life expectancy based on his lifestyle, wealth, etc. According to that guy 26 more years is reasonable.
   1318. Conor Posted: July 18, 2012 at 11:13 AM (#4185973)
There was a point on Sunday when I found myself googling Dolan to figure out how old he was so I could guesstimate how long he had left to live. I felt a little ashamed and went to Knickerblogger to confess this and saw that another poster went a step further and added/subtracted years from Dolan's life expectancy based on his lifestyle, wealth, etc. According to that guy 26 more years is reasonable.


Haha I saw this; it was both great and terrifying.

I think trading Lin may have been tough, right? The most the Knicks could offer was what, like 4/24? So maybe Lin would have preferred to just sign the offer sheet and get the same $24 million in 3 years.
   1319. Raskolnikov Posted: July 18, 2012 at 11:21 AM (#4185990)
I'm happy for Jeremy Lin. I think that the Houston situation right now is the best one possible for him - he's the main star, and he'll have every opportunity to show everyone whether he is a legit star or not.

In NY, you would have had Melo and his jealousy, Woodson knuckling under external politics, Amare and his declining (yet ball-demanding) skills, JR Smith and his chucking ways, and most importantly, Dolan and his pettiness.

The only drawback is that Houston isn't the biggest media market. But it's big enough, and in 3 years, I'm hoping that Lin gets to LA, the Bay Area, or back to Brooklyn.

I think Lin/NY has every bit of drama potential as Lebron/Cleveland.
   1320. AROM Posted: July 18, 2012 at 11:21 AM (#4185992)
Would a Lin, Chandler, Shumpert, draft picks offer have been enough to get Howard? I'm not sure, but I think it gets you in the conversation.


Don't think that's remotely close, partly because I don't think the Knicks have draft picks to offer.
   1321. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 18, 2012 at 11:26 AM (#4186000)
I think trading Lin may have been tough, right? The most the Knicks could offer was what, like 4/24? So maybe Lin would have preferred to just sign the offer sheet and get the same $24 million in 3 years.

The key would be that you’re telling HOU, hey, we know you want this guy so we’re going to a.) guarantee that you get him and b.) get him to you for cheaper than you would get him by trying to sign him outright. So, even if Lin would reject 4/24, you’re getting out ahead of the market and cutting off opportunities for him to be offered more than the 4/24.
   1322. AROM Posted: July 18, 2012 at 11:27 AM (#4186003)
Best I can tell, the next first round pick the Knicks can trade is the 2016 pick. And that one is partially tied up, as the Nuggets have the right to swap first rounders with Knicks that year.
   1323. andrewberg Posted: July 18, 2012 at 11:33 AM (#4186012)
I look forward to getting to know you all and to falling in love with the Purple and Gold!


Either this person is a hopeless narcissist or s/he will find that the lack of long-term emotional investment in the new team will make the winning almost meaningless. Joining a successful fan base makes it even worse.

   1324. JuanGone..except1game Posted: July 18, 2012 at 11:36 AM (#4186022)
Either this person is a hopeless narcissist or s/he will find that the lack of long-term emotional investment in the new team will make the winning almost meaningless. Joining a successful fan base makes it even worse.


Tell that to the additonal millions of Heat fans who've been fans since 2010!
   1325. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 18, 2012 at 11:36 AM (#4186023)
I don't think a sign and trade was a realistic possibility (since NYK couldn't sign and trade him for terms that he should be willing to accept) - it was either keep him or let him go. (Now, you could sign him and trade him in a year or more ... risky, but potentially a high reward strategy.)

I see no way that the Knicks could land Howard.
   1326. andrewberg Posted: July 18, 2012 at 11:42 AM (#4186027)
According to that guy 26 more years is reasonable.


Oh come on. Obviously the Knicks should have matched the offer sheet, but there are 20 other teams who don't have a realistic hope of winning a title in the next 10 years (probably longer). I would gladly trade circumstances with you. I'm not sure the Lin screw-up would have cracked the top 3 of dumb things the Wolves have done in the last 15 years (Joe Smith deal, adding a non-protected pick with Sam Cassell to acquire Marko Jaric, the return for Garnett, drafting Ndudi Ebi, everything that went into the Flynn draft, and on and on).

It sucks, but the sky isn't falling.
   1327. billyshears Posted: July 18, 2012 at 11:54 AM (#4186040)
I don't think a sign and trade was a realistic possibility (since NYK couldn't sign and trade him for terms that he should be willing to accept) - it was either keep him or let him go. (Now, you could sign him and trade him in a year or more ... risky, but potentially a high reward strategy.)


Yeah, I was trying to work my way through this. I'm not so sure. The first offer sheet that Lin reportedly accepted was 3 yrs/$20 mil with a team option for the 4th year. I think a guaranteed 4 yr/$24 mil deal is about as about as good a deal as that. The deal was revised only after the Knicks publicly made it clear that this was an underbid.
   1328. JuanGone..except1game Posted: July 18, 2012 at 11:55 AM (#4186042)
Oh come on. Obviously the Knicks should have matched the offer sheet, but there are 20 other teams who don't have a realistic hope of winning a title in the next 10 years (probably longer). I would gladly trade circumstances with you. I'm not sure the Lin screw-up would have cracked the top 3 of dumb things the Wolves have done in the last 15 years (Joe Smith deal, adding a non-protected pick with Sam Cassell to acquire Marko Jaric, the return for Garnett, drafting Ndudi Ebi, everything that went into the Flynn draft, and on and on).

It sucks, but the sky isn't falling.


I'm in the same category. I was on the Lin bandwagon, I like Lin but the consternation of non-Knicks fans is waaaayy out of proportion. Hell, I was apoplectic over the Lakers not resigning Trevor Ariza, so I get why Knicks fans are going a little crazy, but its the outsiders that I don't understand. I get that some people hate NYers/Knicks fans (I'm not and never have been either for the record), but everyone rushing to jump on the Knicks neck is getting to be a little much. It isn't like they traded Kareem for Jr. Bridgeman and spar parts.
   1329. JC in DC Posted: July 18, 2012 at 11:57 AM (#4186047)
Oh come on. Obviously the Knicks should have matched the offer sheet, but there are 20 other teams who don't have a realistic hope of winning a title in the next 10 years (probably longer). I would gladly trade circumstances with you. I'm not sure the Lin screw-up would have cracked the top 3 of dumb things the Wolves have done in the last 15 years (Joe Smith deal, adding a non-protected pick with Sam Cassell to acquire Marko Jaric, the return for Garnett, drafting Ndudi Ebi, everything that went into the Flynn draft, and on and on).

It sucks, but the sky isn't falling.


Uh, no offense, but we're talking about New York here, not Minnesota. We have a birthright to excellence.
   1330. billyshears Posted: July 18, 2012 at 12:02 PM (#4186055)
Don't think that's remotely close, partly because I don't think the Knicks have draft picks to offer.


Other than Bynum, Chandler is the best player the Magic would have been offered in any deal. What Lin is and isn't has been discussed ad nauseum, but at the very least, the Magic can sell him to their fans as an icon. I think that matters, especially when trading a superstar. The lack of picks is a problem, but I don't think a Chandler, Lin, Shumpert deal is so light that it needs to been buffed up with a bunch of picks.
   1331. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 18, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4186066)
3 yrs/$20 mil with a team option for the 4th year. I think a guaranteed 4 yr/$24 mil deal is about as about as good a deal as that.

I don't, but I also thought 3/20 came in low, so...

1330: Ummmmm, no. How were they going to trade Lin to Orlando (short of a 4/24 style s-n-t)? How excited should the Magic be about an injured Shumpert? What about the ability to absorb Orlando's bad contracts? That phone call doesn't last two minutes.
   1332. billyshears Posted: July 18, 2012 at 12:13 PM (#4186071)
Hell, I was apoplectic over the Lakers not resigning Trevor Ariza, so I get why Knicks fans are going a little crazy, but its the outsiders that I don't understand. I get that some people hate NYers/Knicks fans (I'm not and never have been either for the record), but everyone rushing to jump on the Knicks neck is getting to be a little much. It isn't like they traded Kareem for Jr. Bridgeman and spar parts.


I can only speak as a Knicks fan, but after living and dying with the Knicks through the 80s and 90s, there have only been 2 occasions since 1999 when I have taken joy in being a Knicks fan. The first was in the 2010-2011 season before the Carmelo deal, when the Knicks were playing fun, reasonably successful basketball with a bunch of young guys and others who really seemed like they cared/wanted to be here. The Carmelo deal basically killed that. The second time was during the Jeremy Lin era. Now that's over. I don't think I'm terribly unique among Knicks fans in feeling this way. I'm taking this so hard because it seems to me like the Knicks are doing all they can to rid the team of youth, fun, energy and hope, or everything that I think is fun about being a sports fan.

By the way, I know that I'm posting excessively on this. I apologize. I'm taking this much harder than a grown adult should, and this is my therapy.
   1333. billyshears Posted: July 18, 2012 at 12:22 PM (#4186081)
I don't, but I also thought 3/20 came in low, so...


Well, the team option was $10 mil, so it could be a 4 yr/$30 mil deal. The 4 yr/$24 mil deal has less $6 mil less upside for the player in year 4, but also $4 mil less downside in year 4. I think 3 years down the road, that's a fair trade-off of upside for security.
   1334. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 18, 2012 at 12:22 PM (#4186085)
Tried to post, but it got lost. Andrewberg, the point isn't that this is the dumbest thing the Knicks have ever done. There are too many options for that. This is just the straw that broke the camel's back for a lot of people. Literally every other option the Knicks could have taken would have resulted in some benefit to the team...except this one. And they chose this one.
   1335. andrewberg Posted: July 18, 2012 at 12:23 PM (#4186088)
Uh, no offense, but we're talking about New York here, not Minnesota. We have a birthright to excellence.


Good point :) I don't have time to argue, I have a busy day full of talking myself into Courtney Lee.
   1336. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 18, 2012 at 12:24 PM (#4186089)
You negative nellies will be singing a different tune when Feltonmania runs wild this winter.
   1337. JC in DC Posted: July 18, 2012 at 12:28 PM (#4186092)
It's not going to be Feltonmania. While Lin is looking mediocre in Huse-town, the Garden'll be rocking to Prigionity.
   1338. Raskolnikov Posted: July 18, 2012 at 12:32 PM (#4186099)
I don't see where Lin is similar to Ariza. Isn't a story like Lin, albeit played out to nauseam, why many fans love sports? It was a confluence of so many things breaking right - and this is where New York gets egocentric - and right in the center of the world. ESPN, the garden chanting MVP, bringing the Knicks' season back from the dead, Lebron vs. Lin, the underdog Harvard/Asian/Rudy angle, etc. I would say that Lin on a general interest level is far closer to Kareem than Ariza.

Only Dolan could miss out on such an opportunity.
   1339. rr Posted: July 18, 2012 at 12:40 PM (#4186108)

Either this person is a hopeless narcissist or s/he will find that the lack of long-term emotional investment in the new team will make the winning almost meaningless. Joining a successful fan base makes it even worse.


Fandom is a very subjective and personal thing and doesn't necessarily correlate with how well one is adjusted to life in general. The poster said that he has lived in LA since 1998, and really likes it there, so I don't think it is all that strange, and I expect that a lot of people saying these things will feel differently once they actually see the Knicks play again (Dolan doesn't suit up) although some won't.

Looking over KnickerBlogger last night, I saw that other people were saying somewhat similar things: one guy had transplanted from NY to SF and was planning to "adopt" the Warriors; another guy had connections to NOLA (I think had come to NY from there) and was talking about Ryan Anderson and Anthony Davis and having a "new favorite team." I think you may be overreacting to the "EWWW!!! LakersCooties!!!!" factor here.

   1340. JC in DC Posted: July 18, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4186111)
don't see where Lin is similar to Ariza. Isn't a story like Lin, albeit played out to nauseam, why many fans love sports? It was a confluence of so many things breaking right - and this is where New York gets egocentric - and right in the center of the world. ESPN, the garden chanting MVP, bringing the Knicks' season back from the dead, Lebron vs. Lin, the underdog Harvard/Asian/Rudy angle, etc. I would say that Lin on a general interest level is far closer to Kareem than Ariza.

Only Dolan could miss out on such an opportunity.


That was a moment. Moments by definition don't last. At this point the question reduces to basketball decisions (bracketing the issue of his Asian marketing). Is Lin at that cost superior to Felton at his cost? Lin at that contract was going to be facing the high expectations of "Linsanity!" which are almost by definition unrepeatable. The NY press would promote every clunker game of his (which he will have) as signs that Dolan overpaid, placed marketing over bball or whatever. I'm not saying or predicting that Lin would've failed, nor am I overlooking that by shipping him off you guarantee the death of "Linsanity!" and had you kept him, you left that an open possibility (even if I think it extraordinarily unlikely).

In sum, I think this is a defensible basketball decision. I do worry, however, given the suggestions of some, that this was driven by non-basketball concerns.
   1341. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: July 18, 2012 at 12:51 PM (#4186125)
Why should any Knicks fan give Dolan the benefit of the doubt? #### him.

Meanwhile, sorry if I'm reposting this but The Onion has it right:

Jeremy Lin's Departure Teaches Knicks Fans Important Lesson About Getting Excited By The Knicks
   1342. Raskolnikov Posted: July 18, 2012 at 12:54 PM (#4186130)
It was a several week stretch. Whether this can last is something that no one knows. But that was the fun of that Linsanity stretch - where we all were asking ourselves "when is this going to end?"

You can probably tell that I don't think this is going to end yet, and that it will be fun if Lin can rise to this challenge. If so, the first time Houston comes to the Garden will be a crazy night.
   1343. andrewberg Posted: July 18, 2012 at 12:58 PM (#4186136)
one guy had transplanted from NY to SF and was planning to "adopt" the Warriors; another guy had connections to NOLA (I think had come to NY from there) and was talking about Ryan Anderson and Anthony Davis and having a "new favorite team." I think you may be overreacting to the "EWWW!!! LakersCooties!!!!" factor here.


I am speaking from personal experience. I never much liked the Vikings growing up, but they were "my team" because they were the closest. When I left for college, I completely stopped following them and intentionally did not adopt another team during that time. When I moved to Philadelphia after college, I adopted the Eagles, thinking that they were tortured enough that I wasn't bandwagon-jumping, and that enough time had passed that I could really throw myself in with no second thoughts. Strangely enough, I have grown to hate the Vikings intensely, and the Eagles remain my favorite team 5 years after leaving Philadelphia, but I just don't care as much about football because I don't the emotional ties that I do to other, less successful teams.

You're right that a big part of it is personal and subjective, but I think that a near universal part about what makes sports so important to people who really care about is that they reach back as institutions and tie us to things that we otherwise pull away from. I still talk about the Twins with my dad and my friends from elementary school, but a lot of our other overlapping interests have diverged. Having that shared experience builds a community. Moreover, sharing failures and losses is a part of that institutional community that reinforces the desirability of eventually winning. I know from personal experience that skipping over the communal part and the failure part have devalued the whole institution for me.

Edit- and the reason I say that this other person was a narcissist is that if s/he really thinks the experience is repeatable without building a community or investing oneself emotionally, then that person is essentially saying "this experience is important because I am now involved in it. Team X did not evoke emotions from me before but now they do because I say so."
   1344. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 18, 2012 at 01:21 PM (#4186167)
I'm sorry, but sound basketball decisions don't result in Rayson Kilton as your starting PG.
   1345. rr Posted: July 18, 2012 at 01:30 PM (#4186176)
In sum, I think this is a defensible basketball decision


It is hard to defend, but I agree in the sense that we can't see the future and like I said, this is a chess board. Lakers fans were 98% opposed to trading Lamar Odom to Dallas to open up the TPE and were screaming for Jim Buss' Chris-Griffinish head on a platter. Seven months later, Odom cratered in Dallas, and the TPE was used to absorb Steve Nash's contract. And it is not over yet: Odom is now a Clipper, and maybe he comes back strong and plays a role in the Clippers beating the Lakers and making the WCF this year while Nash's back trouble and age, along with being away from Aaron Nelson's innovative training regime,takes his game down. Or maybe Nash sparks the Lakers to the Finals. No one knows.

That conceded, Felton is 27, is not that good, and seems unlikely to improve. The Knicks have added several very old players to fill out the bench and are tied to massive deals with Anthony, Stoudemire, and Chandler. Leaving Linsanity and jersey sales out of it, Lin, along with Shumpert, was one guy the Knicks had who seemingly had a chance to get better and he is already pretty good. And now he is gone.

Having that shared experience builds a community.


Well, the individual in question, based on the post, has, again, lived in LA for 14 years and feels part of that "community", and as I have said, the Lakers are one of the few things that unifies the vast odd conglomeration of places known as "Los Angeles." Success, as well as failure, can "build communities." Also, the Lakers don't win the title every year, and losing sucks for Lakers' fans too, although the context is different than the Wolves losing.

You moved to Philadelphia and became an Eagles fan and are now therefore rooting for a guy who tortured and killed dogs and did prison time for it. I am obviously not judging that (I of course, as I have been reminded many times on this thread, root for a rapist) but I think it is questionable to make judgments about people based on how they approach sports fandom.





   1346. andrewberg Posted: July 18, 2012 at 01:40 PM (#4186195)
Well, the individual in question, based on the post, has, again, lived in LA for 14 years and feels part of that "community", and as I have said, the Lakers are one of the few things that unifies the vast odd conglomeration of places known as "Los Angeles." Success, as well as failure, can "build communities." Also, the Lakers don't win the title every year, and losing sucks for Lakers' fans too, although the context is different than the Wolves losing.


Yeah, I agree with you for the most part. I think I am also responding to some of the Knicks/Nets stuff that has popped up on Grantland and elsewhere this week. I'm not saying "don't switch allegiances" or "don't cheer for different teams." I am saying that people should go in recognizing that when they give up an allegiance to a team they have followed since childhood, those deep roots don't automatically carry over and the new experience will be very different.
   1347. Booey Posted: July 18, 2012 at 01:54 PM (#4186220)
Also, the Lakers don't win the title every year, and losing sucks for Lakers' fans too, although the context is different than the Wolves losing.


Losing sucks for everybody, but as a fan of a team that's never won the big one, I assume it would be a little easier to deal with if my team had also won several times. Didn't 2009-2010 help ease the pain of 2008 even a little bit? I tend to think 1998 would have been a lot less painful for me if my boys had won in 1997. But I guess I'll never know for sure.
   1348. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 18, 2012 at 02:09 PM (#4186255)
I read this as being in reference to the Nets; now that they signed Hump and Lopez they can't deal either until Dec 15, so any Nets trade for Dwight would have to wait until then.

No, the original post was in regards to the Lakers and they shouldn't trade for Dwight since he's injured and won't play until December. Since no one can verify it, I'm going to assume it's BS.

Lopez can't be dealt until Jan 15th because of how much his new contract is for; Humphries can be traded on Dec 15th.

---

How much faith do the Knicks fans here place in the report on some of the reasons Dolan made the decision?
   1349. Conor Posted: July 18, 2012 at 02:19 PM (#4186270)
Ok, then I guess i was wrong. Forgot about Lopez not being able to be moved until Jan 15. I may have had that confused with something I was reading about Lin and when he could've been dealt to Houston until Jan 15 or something. Max guys can't be moved until Jan 15 or something like that? Didn't know that.

How much faith do the Knicks fans here place in the report on some of the reasons Dolan made the decision?


I believe it 100%. Even the financial hit could've been lessened if it turned out Lin was a bust if they used the stretch (or they could';ve used it on Amare if Lin turned out to be pretty good). So I totally believe it, and it's pretty depressing.
   1350. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: July 18, 2012 at 02:32 PM (#4186287)
I'm not sure the Lin screw-up would have cracked the top 3 of dumb things the Wolves have done in the last 15 years (Joe Smith deal, adding a non-protected pick with Sam Cassell to acquire Marko Jaric, the return for Garnett, drafting Ndudi Ebi, everything that went into the Flynn draft, and on and on).


It's not the stupidity. It's what it represents - the pettitness, the politics, the disgusting nature of Jim Dolan and the whole organization. I don't want those people representing me in any way - even as mannequins for the laundry that ties me to others with my shared background - and I don't want to give that man my money. #### Jim Dolan, and #### the Knicks. And #### Carmelo Anthony too, that fat, talent-wasting, nasty ####.
   1351. billyshears Posted: July 18, 2012 at 02:34 PM (#4186290)
How were they going to trade Lin to Orlando (short of a 4/24 style s-n-t)? How excited should the Magic be about an injured Shumpert? What about the ability to absorb Orlando's bad contracts? That phone call doesn't last two minutes.


I agree the S&T hinges on Lin signing the 4/24 deal (we can disagree on the likelihood of that). I guess the deal comes down to what you think about Lin. I understand that media coverage does not equal trade value, but Jeremy Lin has been on the front page of ESPN for 4 days straight now, and the top 2 stories in the sidebar are about him. I have to think (and I could be wrong), that acquiring a player with that kind of Q rating would have significant value to Orlando.
   1352. Booey Posted: July 18, 2012 at 02:38 PM (#4186299)
So how do you REALLY feel, 'zop? Your opinions were vague and not entirely clear in post 1350...
   1353. Tripon Posted: July 18, 2012 at 03:45 PM (#4186378)
The decision was both financial and emotional since Garden chairman James Dolan was upset over Lin restructuring his deal with Houston last week to include a third year salary of $14.9 million. Dolan, according to sources, felt he was deceived by the 23-year-old Lin.
"Much love and thankfulness to the Knicks and New York for your support this past year," Lin said on Twitter. "Easily the best year of my life. #ForeverGrateful."
Of course, team officials privately felt that Lin's actions over the past few weeks were anything but grateful. They were upset that he hired a publicist without their consent and were livid that the second-year point guard out of Harvard went back to the Rockets for more money. [...]


Let me get this straight. The Knicks are upset that a guy with a major in Fiance, went to Harvard and by all accounts a pretty smart guy hired a publicist and apparently knew how free agency works, at least better than the Knicks did.

Its just the Knicks management thought they could roll over this guy like he was a kid straight out of high school with no higher education.
   1354. JJ1986 Posted: July 18, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4186381)
They were upset that he hired a publicist without their consent


What the ############# #### #### ass #### #### ####?
   1355. andrewberg Posted: July 18, 2012 at 04:03 PM (#4186400)
   1356. JC in DC Posted: July 18, 2012 at 04:16 PM (#4186411)
Dolan's screenname is Johnny Pnumunee?
   1357. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 18, 2012 at 04:24 PM (#4186420)
rumor!: Jamison to LAL for the minimum. I'm surprised - until a day or two ago, I thought he'd go for more money / close to home.

Publicist: Really?
   1358. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: July 18, 2012 at 04:26 PM (#4186423)
Its just the Knicks management thought they could roll over this guy like he was a kid straight out of high school with no higher education.


No, it's that Jim Dolan is self-conscious for being the dumb one in his family and lashes out at anyone and anything that points out his lack of intelligence. It's impossible to overstate how brilliant Charles Dolan is and how nasty, dumb and brutish Jim Dolan is.
   1359. JuanGone..except1game Posted: July 18, 2012 at 04:43 PM (#4186442)
Let me get this straight. The Knicks are upset that a guy with a major in Fiance, went to Harvard and by all accounts a pretty smart guy hired a publicist and apparently knew how free agency works, at least better than the Knicks did.


Maybe I'm way off on this. But it appears that there was obviously a deal on the table that Lin agreed to with the Rockets, then Lin went back (this is where I could be wrong) asked for increased offer that wasn't on the total amount of the contract but on just the final year which coincides with the financial cliff that the Knicks would be going off. It appears that this contract which was restructured affected the Knicks potential to match more than Lin's actual overall pay-day when you consider tvom.

Why is it that Lin's getting a pass for obviously wanting out of town (Not that there's anything wrong with escaping Dolan)? I'm just perplexed that Lin's getting sympathy as if he's done something noble. I really don't think he's done anything wrong, but I just don't get the overral reaction to this.
   1360. JJ1986 Posted: July 18, 2012 at 04:49 PM (#4186449)
then Lin went back (this is where I could be wrong) asked for increased offer that wasn't on the total amount of the contract but on just the final year which coincides with the financial cliff that the Knicks would be going off.


I don't think there was any other way to increase the offer.
   1361. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 18, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4186451)
Does it make a difference if HOU went to Lin or if Lin went to HOU with the increased offer? I initially heard it as the former... and no 'formal' offer was on the table yet, moratorium on that and all.

Either way, I don't think Lin wanted out of town, nor does it matter much to me if he did or not.

Lin getting sympathy? I don't think that's what going on - you're not Frank Isola, are you?

***

1360: Yup - first two years were already maxed out, the other option was to add a fourth year.
   1362. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 18, 2012 at 04:55 PM (#4186454)
Scenario A:

Lin: Hey Mr. Morey, I know you’ve already offered me a pretty nice contract based on 26 games of Linsanity last year, but I don’t think your offer is good enough and I’d like you to raise it.

Morey: Sure, let’s go ahead and change your offer.

Scenario B:

Morey: *makes offer to Lin, reads newspaper/watches tv/listens to radio where Knicks make a big to do about matching any offer up to a billion dollars and decides that if he wants this guy he’d probably make the most poisony poison pill offer he can*

One of these seems far more plausible to me than the other, YMMV.
   1363. Jimmy P Posted: July 18, 2012 at 04:56 PM (#4186456)
Why is it that Lin's getting a pass for obviously wanting out of town (Not that there's anything wrong with escaping Dolan)?

Why does he need a free pass? He was a free agent, restricted sure, but still a free agent. He has every right to work with a team that wants him to make sure that happens. If he and the GM are smart enough to make that happen, more power to them.

Dwight Howard should take notes.
   1364. Fourth True Outcome Posted: July 18, 2012 at 05:07 PM (#4186465)
Why is it that Lin's getting a pass for obviously wanting out of town (Not that there's anything wrong with escaping Dolan)?


Is this even the case? He has said publicly that he would have preferred New York, and he didn't really do anything that obviously belies that. He signed an offer sheet with the Rockets, but the Knicks told him to test the market and that they'd match everything. I'm not sure how he should/could have run his free agency differently, unless you think he shouldn't have signed the only offer in front of him because it was too much money. (Is there a player in the league who would do that?)
   1365. JuanGone..except1game Posted: July 18, 2012 at 05:09 PM (#4186466)
Lin getting sympathy? I don't think that's what going on - you're not Frank Isola, are you?


Who is that? Hopefully not a Dolan whose name you've changed to protect the innocent. Claiming that I'm Zeke would have been funnier.

Why does he need a free pass? He was a free agent, restricted sure, but still a free agent. He has every right to work with a team that wants him to make sure that happens. If he and the GM are smart enough to make that happen, more power to them.


That point was more about people taking his comments this afternoon at face value. "Honestly, I preferred New York," Lin told Sports Illustrated. "But my main goal in free agency was to go to a team that had plans for me and wanted me. I wanted to have fun playing basketball. ... Now I'm definitely relieved.". It's fine for him to leave, but it was obvious to everyone (and I'd guess including his agent), that the offer from the Rockets meant bye-bye New York. The comments about plans and fun were just a little to self-serving. At least he didn't go full Neagle.
   1366. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 18, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4186473)
It's fine for him to leave, but it was obvious to everyone (and I'd guess including his agent), that the offer from the Rockets meant bye-bye New York. The comments about plans and fun were just a little to self-serving. At least he didn't go full Neagle.

Everyone? No. In fact, that's part of the reason most of the Knicks fans here are upset. Everyone assumed they'd match *no matter what*. The idea that he signed a deal that he thought the Knicks wouldn't match is clearly the story the Knicks want to get out there and it makes no sense.
   1367. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 18, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4186474)
On the other hand, the rumors are starting to swing the other way on the Bulls and Asik. Now the rumors are the Bulls *won't* match. And the Bulls are supposedly interested in Darko as a replacement. I really can't get worked up too much either way about the Bulls matching or not, they're already taken the cheap way out this offseason so either way makes sense.

I do think it would be a little funny/"ironic"/what have you if the Rockets get both Lin and Asik and that ends up costing them a shot at Dwight Howard.

BTW, the Rockets and Asik still haven't signed the offer sheet. That's ridiculous.
   1368. Maxwn Posted: July 18, 2012 at 05:22 PM (#4186476)
It's fine for him to leave, but it was obvious to everyone (and I'd guess including his agent), that the offer from the Rockets meant bye-bye New York.

This is just wrong. The entire last week has consisted of most of the basketball world being incredulous about the rumors that the Knicks were going to let him go. It was not obvious that the Rockets offer meant he was gone until the Knicks actually pulled the trigger.

Edit: Coke to Moses.
   1369. JuanGone..except1game Posted: July 18, 2012 at 05:30 PM (#4186484)
This is just wrong. The entire last week has consisted of most of the basketball world being incredulous about the rumors that the Knicks were going to let him go. It was not obvious that the Rockets offer meant he was gone until the Knicks actually pulled the trigger.


Maybe from fans, but the Knicks went from just about guaranteeing that they would match to skeptical from the minute this rumour went out. Do you think that Rockets went back to the table to just spite the Knicks? Are you forgetting that the Knicks actually tried to physically avoid this offer, as if they were trying to avoid a subpeona? I think you guys are being blinded by your Dolan hate. The "basketball world" has a lot less information about Dolan's appetite for that contract than Lin's agent would.
   1370. Jimmy P Posted: July 18, 2012 at 05:34 PM (#4186487)
Funny Primer retweet from Ben Golliver (Blazers Edge)

I kid you not a Brinks truck just pulled up at Olshey's Batum press conference LMAO Twitpic
   1371. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 18, 2012 at 05:39 PM (#4186493)
Isola = ny daily news, stance is like yours

Ronnie price may go to portland
   1372. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 18, 2012 at 05:44 PM (#4186495)
@Jonathan_Feigen: The Rockets have waived Jon Leuer, Jerome Jordan. When they clear waivers, Rockets will sign Omer Asik to offer sheet.


Some team really should claim Leuer. 2nd round pick, productive. Cheap.
   1373. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 18, 2012 at 05:48 PM (#4186499)
Maybe from fans, but the Knicks went from just about guaranteeing that they would match to skeptical from the minute this rumour went out. Do you think that Rockets went back to the table to just spite the Knicks?

The quote, that NJ used above, was the Knicks would match anything up to "a billion dollars". The rumor of them not matching is what surprised everyone, because everyone assumed the Knicks would match. Go back through this thread if you'd like, for both fan comments and rumors/tweets/stories about the whole situation.*

Spite? They wanted to sign him, this isn't a spite signing.

*Unless we're just talking past each other and you're only referring to the time frame since the rumor broke of the Knicks not matching (Sunday, I want to say), but the offer didn't change since then.
   1374. JC in DC Posted: July 18, 2012 at 05:49 PM (#4186502)


Some team really should claim Leuer. 2nd round pick, productive. Cheap.


NY. That'll teach the Rockets!
   1375. JuanGone..except1game Posted: July 18, 2012 at 05:52 PM (#4186505)
Isola = ny daily news, stance is like yours


If you say that he's something like the the NY version of Mariotti, I might consider self-harm.
   1376. Maxwn Posted: July 18, 2012 at 05:54 PM (#4186506)
I think you guys are being blinded by your Dolan hate.

Man, I am a Grizzlies fan. I have no feelings about James Dolan whatsoever. The Knicks all but guaranteed they would match, told Lin to go get an offer, then he did. After that is when the Knicks started to get cold feet. Your initial comment seemed to indicate that Lin should have known that accepting the Rockets offer would mean he was gone from NY. I haven't seen anything that points towards that being true. Everything you mentioned with them dodging the offer sheet happened after he agreed to it. I don't think the Rockets did it to spite the Knicks, I think they did it to maximize their chances of getting Lin. But there was no indication that those chances were very high until the last couple of days. To suggest that Lin knew he was choosing to leave when he signed that offer sheet strikes me as BS.

Edit: I cede all further responses on this topic to Moses, as he is beating me to basically everything I'm trying to say.
   1377. kpelton Posted: July 18, 2012 at 05:57 PM (#4186508)
While I will grant that this quote never came directly for them, "match any offer up to $1 billion" doesn't exactly leave a lot of wiggle room for him getting $5 million more ...
   1378. JC in DC Posted: July 18, 2012 at 06:01 PM (#4186510)
To suggest that Lin knew he was choosing to leave when he signed that offer sheet strikes me as BS.


I agree, but it may have been a miscalculation. Houston did it to "maximize" their chances of getting Lin, your term, which means they decreased the chances NY would match. If Lin wanted to play in NY, he needed to consider that, no? OTOH, I don't know what else a FA should do in his situation. Do you really turn down an offer for more money? Does the players association even allow that?

Can we please stop talking about Lin as a Harvard student, as though he's some smarty who gamed the Knicks or the system b/c he played Ivy League ball? I find that silly and borderline idiotic. He's smart enough to be guided by agents and publicists looking out for his best interests.
   1379. Maxwn Posted: July 18, 2012 at 06:02 PM (#4186512)
While I will grant that this quote never came directly for them, "match any offer up to $1 billion" doesn't exactly leave a lot of wiggle room for him getting $5 million more ...

What did come directly from them is their head coach saying that Lin would "absolutely" be back.
   1380. Jimmy P Posted: July 18, 2012 at 06:03 PM (#4186514)
He's smart enough to be guided by agents and publicists looking out for his best interests.

That's more of a credit to him being a Harvard student than the negotiations.
   1381. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: July 18, 2012 at 06:08 PM (#4186516)
Do you really turn down an offer for more money?


More to the point, do you turn down literally the only formal offer you get from the entire league? Jeremy Lin had one contract sitting on his table, and he signed it. Not sure how exactly one would go about criticizing that move.
   1382. Maxwn Posted: July 18, 2012 at 06:08 PM (#4186518)
If Lin wanted to play in NY, he needed to consider that, no?

Given the "up to a billion" story and the Woodson comments, if he had considered it, it seems to me he would have concluded that it didn't affect anything and taken the money. Turns out that was an incorrect reading of the Knicks, but that is their fault and not his.
   1383. Maxwn Posted: July 18, 2012 at 06:11 PM (#4186520)
More to the point, do you turn down literally the only formal offer you get from the entire league? Let's not lose sight of that. Jeremy Lin had exactly one contract sitting on his table, and he signed it.

This is a pretty good point, but it is not totally accurate. For a team to have matching rights on a RFA, they have to extend a qualifying offer that he has the right to accept. Given Lin's previous contract situation, I suspect his QO would have been very low, but he did have it on the table.

Edit: I'm not totally sure if this accurate, but one site says his QO would have been $850k.
   1384. JuanGone..except1game Posted: July 18, 2012 at 06:14 PM (#4186521)
More to the point, do you turn down literally the only formal offer you get from the entire league? Jeremy Lin had one contract sitting on his table, and he signed it. Not sure how exactly one would go about criticizing that move.


That doesn't really comport with reality, if he did want to go back to NY. There's too much to this to know for sure what happenned during these negotiations, but it wouldn't be unheard of for his agent to reach out to the Knicks for a counter-offer before signing. Again, IT WAS OK FOR HIM TO LEAVE. I just don't buy the spin that he wanted to go back once the Rockets showed that they were going to make it rain.
   1385. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: July 18, 2012 at 06:17 PM (#4186524)
[1383] Good point. I had totally forgotten about the QO.
   1386. JJ1986 Posted: July 18, 2012 at 06:17 PM (#4186525)
He thought the Knicks would match anything. If that was the case, he obviously should have gotten as much from the Rockets as possible.
   1387. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 18, 2012 at 06:21 PM (#4186527)
I think you guys are being blinded by your Dolan hate.

Man, I am a Grizzlies fan.


And I'm a Bulls fan. I'm enjoying the hell out of this.

If Lin wanted to play in NY, he needed to consider that, no? OTOH, I don't know what else a FA should do in his situation.

This is pretty much SOP for RFAs. The Knicks don't want to bid against themselves (or the Bulls with Asik, or the Blazers with Batum, etc) so the team tells the player to go get an offer. I can't remember many cases where a RFA get an offer from their current team and just signed it (max extensions or QO excepted). But yes, you have a point that Lin did agree to an offer than was much more favorable to Houston than NY, but it's not a coincidence that was the offer that was going to pay him the most money.

That doesn't really comport with reality, if he did want to go back to NY. There's too much to this to know for sure what happenned during these negotiations, but it wouldn't be unheard of for his agent to reach out to the Knicks for a counter-offer before signing.

Actually, that's exactly what reality is since the Knicks couldn't offer him this deal - they could only match it. The best deal the Knicks could offer was the 4yr/$24mil deal mentioned above (and I'm not even 100% on that, they maybe could have only offered 2 years for a lot less). So no, a counter offer really wasn't an option here.
   1388. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 18, 2012 at 06:22 PM (#4186529)
ESPNSteinLine: Just going up online and via SportsCenter: Sources say Raptors in serious talks to sign free-agent PG John Lucas III away from Bulls


Uh...ok. Who cares?
   1389. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 18, 2012 at 06:22 PM (#4186530)
And I'm a Bulls fan. I'm enjoying the hell out of this.
Suns fan. And this is awesome.
   1390. billyshears Posted: July 18, 2012 at 06:36 PM (#4186536)
Can we please stop talking about Lin as a Harvard student, as though he's some smarty who gamed the Knicks or the system b/c he played Ivy League ball? I find that silly and borderline idiotic. He's smart enough to be guided by agents and publicists looking out for his best interests.


Amen. Mostly because this ignores the extraordinary ability of Ivy League schools to find athletic morons who manage to barely clear the severely degraded standards Ivy League schools maintain for athletes.
   1391. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 18, 2012 at 06:48 PM (#4186542)
If you say that he's something like the the NY version of Mariotti, I might consider self-harm.

Wouldn't know. :)
He's part of hoopshype.com's twitter aggregator - only thing I know about him was his prominent mention in a 2007 article about the Knicks war on reporters (he had least favored status). That - and that he's the guy in the media who seems to mostly closely take your stance, without my researching.

I should defer to Moses on Lin as well. Although...

Uh...ok. Who cares?

Spoken like someone who doesn't bookmark websites that update summer league rosters. Or thought about being in a D-League fantasy venture. Or spends a healthy amount of time offline.
   1392. andrewberg Posted: July 18, 2012 at 07:00 PM (#4186549)
Some team really should claim Leuer. 2nd round pick, productive. Cheap.


Wolves beat writer speculated that he might be interested in MN (he's from MN). For the price, I'd rather have him as a reserve stretch 4 than Tolliver.

He thought the Knicks would match anything. If that was the case, he obviously should have gotten as much from the Rockets as possible.


Cosign.
   1393. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 18, 2012 at 07:22 PM (#4186560)
Dan L ?@KnicksFanBlog: Since James Dolan took over, the Knicks have more losses than any other franchise in the NBA.

Is this true?
   1394. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 18, 2012 at 07:23 PM (#4186561)
Beautiful analysis on where rebounds go.
   1395. Raskolnikov Posted: July 18, 2012 at 07:56 PM (#4186596)

That doesn't really comport with reality, if he did want to go back to NY. There's too much to this to know for sure what happenned during these negotiations, but it wouldn't be unheard of for his agent to reach out to the Knicks for a counter-offer before signing.


I don't know about other people, but in my experience and from talking to others who have gone through job negotiations, that is a classic negotiating "no-no." As in, showing your hand like that pretty much compromises any leverage you have, and doesn't make you any more appealing to any side.


Again, IT WAS OK FOR HIM TO LEAVE. I just don't buy the spin that he wanted to go back once the Rockets showed that they were going to make it rain.


At this point, you're basically interpreting motivation, just like the rest of us. I think that Lin was genuine in his interest to stay in NY, and I don't think it was spin.
   1396. Raskolnikov Posted: July 18, 2012 at 08:03 PM (#4186603)
I agree, but it may have been a miscalculation. Houston did it to "maximize" their chances of getting Lin, your term, which means they decreased the chances NY would match. If Lin wanted to play in NY, he needed to consider that, no? OTOH, I don't know what else a FA should do in his situation. Do you really turn down an offer for more money? Does the players association even allow that?

Lin could have considered that, but really, there were no other rational moves. It's game theory - if the Knicks knew that Lin wanted to stay so badly that he would take less money, then why offer anything that would get them into luxury tax area, or any offer that wouldn't be massively on the Knicks' side. That's how negotiations usually work.
   1397. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 18, 2012 at 08:07 PM (#4186605)
Spoken like someone who doesn't bookmark websites that update summer league rosters. Or thought about being in a D-League fantasy venture. Or spends a healthy amount of time offline.

Oh, for the sake of completeness and knowing where everyone is, I care. But it's more continuing with my theme of disparaging JL3 every chance I get and because it's being reported by Stein as a significant FA signing and not an end of bench filler move that it really is.
   1398. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 18, 2012 at 10:01 PM (#4186703)
you know, his ws/48 and per/simple_rating were pretty good this year...
... which is exhibit a) on why you don't just look at the uber stats and move on. :)
(that and to beware of small sample sizes)

price deal may be for 2 yrs w/ a p-opt in yr 2
nazr mohammed might be brooklyn bound
   1399. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 18, 2012 at 11:37 PM (#4186766)
Denver gives McGee something like 4/44
   1400. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 18, 2012 at 11:52 PM (#4186770)
that and to beware of small sample sizes

Pun inferred.

Rumor: Vlad radmonovic to the Bulls.
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