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Monday, July 02, 2012

OT: NBA basketball July Thread 2012

I estimate that only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what the site is really about: Jim Furtado trolling his own site when he’s bored.

Tripon Posted: July 02, 2012 at 04:21 PM | 2487 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball

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   1801. Kurt Posted: August 09, 2012 at 10:24 PM (#4204928)
My MLB birthday team may be one of the worst ever, but Greg Anthony, Bob Dandridge and Sasha Pavlovic are all NBA players I've heard of, at least.

I think that still beats mine - Mike Dunleavy (Jr.), Jason Terry, Sherman Douglas. And Pete Myers.
   1802. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: August 09, 2012 at 10:26 PM (#4204931)
Marc Stein ?@ESPNSteinLine

Source close to talks tells ESPN that trade call with league office has been scheduled for Friday morning to process four-team Dwight deal
i still really have no clue as to the specifics of player movement, but the sixers part of this seems to be:

in: bynum, richardson
out: iguodala, vucevic, harkless, future draft pick (which is kind of interesting, because i'm fairly sure that the sixers cannot trade any of their next 4 first round draft picks)
   1803. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: August 09, 2012 at 10:27 PM (#4204933)
A four-team trade that would send Dwight Howard to the Los Angeles Lakers is complete, multiple sources told ESPN on Thursday night.

A source with direct knowledge of the talks told ESPN.com's Marc Stein the Lakers will receive Howard, the Denver Nuggets will acquire Andre Iguodala, the 76ers will receive Andrew Bynum and Jason Richardson, and the Magic will get Arron Afflalo, Al Harrington, Nikola Vucevic and one protected future first-round pick from each of the other three teams.

In addition, the Magic will be getting other pieces, including 76ers No. 1 draft pick Moe Harkless, a source told Stein.


Lakers are clear favorites for the title now, IMO*. Pretty decent move for Denver, too, even if Iggy isn't a true #1 guy, he seems like a great fit on that team. I need to see Philly's roster now to know how I feel about them, but this feels like a good move for them, too.

Orlando though, geez.

*Kobe and Nash could both all of a sudden hit a wall and show their age/mileage, but I'm not betting on it. They match up wonderfully with the Heat, Thunder, etc.
   1804. Manny Coon Posted: August 09, 2012 at 10:28 PM (#4204934)
I guess all it took to get a deal done was for Orlando to accept absolutely nothing back.


If this report is right, what the hell is Orlando doing? It seems insane.
   1805. JJ1986 Posted: August 09, 2012 at 10:28 PM (#4204935)
So the Magic are getting Afflalo, Harrington, Harkless, Vucevic and three first round picks. And the only contract they're dumping is J-Rich. That's awful. Not one really valuable piece. I'd rather just have Al Horford than all of that.
   1806. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 09, 2012 at 10:30 PM (#4204940)
all but 2 of them were scrubs (Tom Chambers, Byron Scott)


Who, as I've noted before, was in a U.S. history class I graded papers for back when I was a TA at Arizona State. I gave him something like a 37 on a final (I didn't get the impression that he was stupid, but rather that some sort of learning disability was involved); a few weeks later, IIRC, he decided to come out early. Surely that contributed to his decision.
   1807. JJ1986 Posted: August 09, 2012 at 10:31 PM (#4204941)
I feel bad for Kwame Brown. He just signed to start and now he's relegated to the end of the bench.
   1808. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: August 09, 2012 at 10:33 PM (#4204943)
Worrying that Andrew Bynum will miss 90 games with an injury will be a nice change of pace from worrying that Elton Brand will miss 90 games with an injury.
   1809. tshipman Posted: August 09, 2012 at 10:38 PM (#4204949)
How is that deal better for Orlando than just Howard for Bynum straight up?

Oh well ... welcome to LA, pouting locker-room cancer!
   1810. andrewberg Posted: August 09, 2012 at 10:38 PM (#4204950)
I hate to be the guy who semi defend yet another seemingly uneven trade big man trade that secures the lakers' future, but we really have no idea what was on the table. Hard to believe Houston couldn't beat that though.
   1811. andrewberg Posted: August 09, 2012 at 10:40 PM (#4204951)
Tship- seriously, the team who is getting bynum gave up more, so even within this trade, Howard looks like the second most valuable big man.

Keep pretending you have mixed feelings...:-)
   1812. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: August 09, 2012 at 10:44 PM (#4204955)
I need to see Philly's roster now to know how I feel about them, but this feels like a good move for them, too.


starting lineup:
holiday (22)
turner (24)
wright (28)/young (27)/richardson (32)
young (24)/brown (30)/hawes (24)/allen (23)
bynum (25)

bench:
2 of nick young, jason richardson, dorrell wright, or (god help us) evan turner
3 of thaddeus young, kwame brown, spencer hawes, or lavoy allen
royal ivey (31)
maalik wayns (21)
arnett moultrie (22)


there's some good depth there, and for a team that was one of the youngest in the NBA last year, they've brought in some quality veterans, and the younger players on the team are now starting to grow into their primes.

i don't really think this is that good of a team, and bynum's impending free agency is a fairly large concern, but iguodala was also an impending free agent, and harkless and vucevic aren't really anything more than lottery tickets.

   1813. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 09, 2012 at 10:48 PM (#4204958)
My birthday team is pretty bad... considering it isn't actually an entire team. Before 2010, it contained one player. At present, the just-traded Vucevic is the all-time leading scorer among NBA players who share my day of entry to the world, with 283 points.
   1814. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 09, 2012 at 10:49 PM (#4204960)
PG: Steve Nash
SG: Kobe Bryant
PF: Pau Gasol
C: Dwight Howard

You or I could play small forward for that team and it'd still be a title contender. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true.
   1815. JJ1986 Posted: August 09, 2012 at 10:54 PM (#4204965)
I imagine the 6ers will start J-Rich at the 2 and Allen at the 4. They've always liked Young off the bench and they're gonna need Turner to get most of the backup PG minutes.
   1816. NJ in DC Posted: August 09, 2012 at 11:42 PM (#4204986)
####### Lakers.
   1817. Booey Posted: August 10, 2012 at 01:08 AM (#4205023)
I am shocked, SHOCKED! to see Howard end up on the Lakers. They never seem to be in the running for ANY big names...

Come on Stern, time to work your magic again!

Sigh...
   1818. Booey Posted: August 10, 2012 at 01:10 AM (#4205025)
And what the hell was Orlando thinking? They had to have been able to get something better than that in return, wouldn't you think? Does this free up some major cap room, or something?
   1819. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: August 10, 2012 at 01:38 AM (#4205027)
I imagine the 6ers will start J-Rich at the 2 and Allen at the 4. They've always liked Young off the bench and they're gonna need Turner to get most of the backup PG minutes.
thinking about it, i actually really like the combination of bynum and allen in the starting lineup. on offense, lavoy allen is capable of playing out in the mid-range, which opens up the paint for bynum, and he's also a really good passer, which could create some easy baskets for bynum down low, tic-tac-toe style.

and while bynum isn't really a very good defender, lavoy allen is actually pretty stout at that end of the floor.


adn i also really, really like the combination of spencer hawes and thaddeus young coming off the bench. they played about 400 minutes together last season, and while there wasnt much difference in their on/off court numbers in terms of counting stats, thaddeus young shot 6% better from the floor with hawes on the floor, while hawes shot 8% better with young on the floor.


i'm not exactly sure how kwame brown fits into that, but considering the injury histories of each of bynum, hawes, and brown, i can't really think it's overkill to have all 3 on the roster.



oh, and i know this has been linked before, but now, with bynum joining kwame brown on the sixers, i feel it appropriate to post this:

Here's what Brown had to say about the "young fella" [bynum] after the game:

"He's a grown man now," Brown said of his former Lakers teammate. "He's grown into his body well. He's a lot more physical than when he first came in."


Also:

"That was my young fella," Brown said. "I taught him everything he knows."


And finally:

"I'm one of the better defenders in the league and we played against each other every day in practice," Brown said. "I told him if you can score against me, you can score on anyone."

   1820. JuanGone..except1game Posted: August 10, 2012 at 01:40 AM (#4205028)
The snoopy dance that I've been doing for the last 2 hours has now made me dizzy. Great trade for the Lakers. Buss is going to be writing a big check in a few years, but this should be worth it. It's funny but the best fit for the new look Lakers are the 2 new guys. Steve is probably the best p'n'r PG in the league and I'd even put Howard above Shaq as a p'n'r big man. With Kobe on the wing and Pau in the weak side, that offense set (should Mike Brown choose not ruin it) will be devastating.
   1821. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 10, 2012 at 02:27 AM (#4205036)
Vermont is correct.


Well, at least I've got that to console myself with after today's trade. Being from VT means you get used to not really having anybody noteworthy being from where you are.

Where in the NBA by-laws does it say that once a decade or so a Hall of Fame center has to get traded to the Lakers? I've spent the evening thinking uncharitable things about Howard and Nash's backs, Kobe's knee, and MWP's decision-making. On the other hand, I am excited to see how Iggy slots in with the Nuggets. If he gets to play a role on that team more like he does on the Team USA roster, it could be fun.

Mostly, though, I will join the "What was Orlando thinking?" crowd. (Several people on twitter have also pointed out that this means Orlando ditched a really good coach for no good reason.)
   1822. thok Posted: August 10, 2012 at 06:30 AM (#4205052)
(Several people on twitter have also pointed out that this means Orlando ditched a really good coach for no good reason.)


Between the Warriors with Nelson-Webber and the Jazz with Sloan-Williams, this wouldn't be the first time a player-coach feud resulted in the team losing both the player and the coach.
   1823. Al Peterson Posted: August 10, 2012 at 08:18 AM (#4205070)
PG: Steve Nash
SG: Kobe Bryant
PF: Pau Gasol
C: Dwight Howard

You or I could play small forward for that team and it'd still be a title contender. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true.


With guards blowing by Nash and Bryant on a regular basis it's nice to have the paint defended by Howard. Also great to see Howard copying his career path from the Shaq book - Magic/Lakers. Maybe he gets traded to the Heat within the week once he learns he can't coexist with Kobe...
   1824. jmurph Posted: August 10, 2012 at 08:21 AM (#4205073)
Great moves by LA, Denver (how the hell are they turning Harrington and Afflalo into Iguodala), and Philly, and just a shocking move for Orlando. If Harrington (three more years!) is moving in a Dwight Howard/Andrew Bynum deal and doesn't end up on one of the teams receiving a star big man, there is something seriously wrong with the paperwork.

And how is Orlando not getting rid of Hedo? Incredible. The Nets deal was miles better 6 months ago, a month ago, and this fall when it can happen again. Just crazy.

EDIT: Think about it: LA is giving up less than the original rumor yesterday (with Pau in the deal), and receiving more (in that they get to keep Pau and not pay Harrington for 3 years).
   1825. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: August 10, 2012 at 08:27 AM (#4205075)
Denver (how the hell are they turning Harrington and Afflalo into Iguodala)
it's actually even better for them than that. iguodala has an ETO at the end of this year, which he'll likely exercise, which means that they will also shed a ton of cap room (~$15 million) going into this summer when there's a ton of talent available in free agency.
   1826. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: August 10, 2012 at 09:45 AM (#4205111)
Answer to the country question: Canada, which makes sense in retrospect.
2nd: Germany, Serbia and France, with 14.

What ever Orlando's braintrust is drinking, I don't want it. Great for everybody else, though.
   1827. Joel W Posted: August 10, 2012 at 09:57 AM (#4205128)
So are we all looking forward to Dwight Howard sulking his way to Miami in 2016 after winning 3 championships? That would really put him on the Shaq career path.
   1828. Joel W Posted: August 10, 2012 at 09:59 AM (#4205129)
Nuggets are going to run teams off the damn floor when they come to Denver. Iggy and Lawson are going to be really fun to watch together.
   1829. AROM Posted: August 10, 2012 at 10:17 AM (#4205152)
it's actually even better for them than that. iguodala has an ETO at the end of this year, which he'll likely exercise, which means that they will also shed a ton of cap room (~$15 million) going into this summer when there's a ton of talent available in free agency.


What are the odds of Denver using that cap space to get a better player than Iggy? Probably not much.
   1830. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: August 10, 2012 at 10:23 AM (#4205160)
Updated deal with a couple more pieces:

A source with direct knowledge of the talks told ESPN.com's Marc Stein the Lakers will receive Howard, the Denver Nuggets will acquire Andre Iguodala, the 76ers will receive Andrew Bynum and Jason Richardson, and the Magic will get Arron Afflalo, Al Harrington, Nikola Vucevic and one protected future first-round pick from each of the three teams.

The Lakers also will acquire Earl Clark and Chris Duhon, a source told ESPN The Magazine's Chris Broussard. Draft picks the Magic will receive are Nuggets (2014), 76ers (2015) and Lakers (2017).

In addition, the Magic will be getting other pieces, including 76ers No. 1 draft pick Moe Harkless, a source told Stein.
   1831. AROM Posted: August 10, 2012 at 10:23 AM (#4205162)
Obviously the Lakers win. I like the deal for Philly. Iggy is great but having an elite center was a bigger need for them. Denver is improved.

The Magic? All I can say is wow. I think I'd rather just make Dwight play out the season and leave as a free agent than get this return. From what I can find Harrington's contract is not guaranteed after 2012-13, so that's good.
   1832. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: August 10, 2012 at 10:26 AM (#4205163)
Anybody else thinking that Morey is kicking himself today for landing Asik -and- Lin?
   1833. Booey Posted: August 10, 2012 at 10:39 AM (#4205182)
Where in the NBA by-laws does it say that once a decade or so a Hall of Fame center has to get traded to the Lakers?


It doesn't just apply to centers. The little known rule states that the Lakers are entitled to a new HOFer or two (including coaches) every 3-5 years.

1996/97 - Shaq
1999/00 - Phil
2003/04 - Malone, Payton
2007/08 - Gasol
2012/13 - Howard, Nash

Clockwork.

Payton and Malone were both past their primes in 2004, so the rule allowed the Lakers to get both to make up for it. The rule also allowed them to pick up two in 2012 since Stern almost violated it the year before by vetoing the Paul trade.
   1834. tshipman Posted: August 10, 2012 at 10:45 AM (#4205188)
Anybody else thinking that Morey is kicking himself today for landing Asik -and- Lin?


Well, I don't think he can really kick himself for Orlando not accepting a better deal from him. That's got to be incredibly frustrating.

Denver (how the hell are they turning Harrington and Afflalo into Iguodala),


Yeah, that's a pretty great deal for them. I kinda wonder who's going to start for them at the guard. Do they run the double PG lineup at the tip off? I have mixed feelings about this move for Denver, though, because they also just made their path to the finals that much harder.



So, how many wins for the Lakers in 2012-2013?

I'm putting it at 58 and a lot of "disappointment" articles. I am fairly unsure of how Pau/Howard play together and Howard is still out until December or so with the back injury.
   1835. Booey Posted: August 10, 2012 at 11:02 AM (#4205208)
I have mixed feelings about this move for Denver, though, because they also just made their path to the finals that much harder.


They didn't have a shot at the Finals either way, so they made the right move by at least trying to improve their own team a bit, IMO.

So, how many wins for the Lakers in 2012-2013?


I'll say 59. Kobe's Lakers have made the Finals 7 times, but only twice have they gone all gangbusters on the rest of the league during the regular season (2000, 2009). Usually they seem to coast a bit and settle in the 56-58 range and then turn it on in the playoffs. I'm guessing they still finish a game or so behind the Thunder for the #1 seed, but then beat them in the WCF and give Stern his wet dream fantasy Lakers/Heat Final.
   1836. The District Attorney Posted: August 10, 2012 at 11:06 AM (#4205219)
I don't think [Morey] can really kick himself for Orlando not accepting a better deal from him. That's got to be incredibly frustrating.
John Hollinger @johnhollinger

Based on what I've been told Houston pretty clearly had a better offer -- including a guaranteed lotto pick. Frustrating day for Rox.
   1837. AROM Posted: August 10, 2012 at 11:17 AM (#4205230)
and Howard is still out until December or so with the back injury.


Has that been confirmed?
   1838. Jimmy P Posted: August 10, 2012 at 11:19 AM (#4205237)
Seriously, how do the Lakers get teams to continually take the worst possible trades? Everyone can lament how the Lakers get players, but the Lakers NEVER have cap space and always manage to acquire marquee guys. And, in doing so, they usually get the other team to accept a far worse deal than any other deal. The one for Gasol, Nash, and now Howard? Unreal.

Can't believe Iggy brought more back than Howard. This is almost an Otis Smith trade: the Magic gave up the best player, took a bad contract (possibly two) back, and didn't dump any. Good thing they fired SVG and extended Jameer.

Anthology of crotch shots on Grantland with an awesome Tweet from Julius Hodge.
   1839. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: August 10, 2012 at 11:21 AM (#4205242)
i think this is going to be one of the more interesting dynamics for this sixers team. from bill simmons' mailbag on grantland:
Fear No. 2: They're building around two of the league's moodiest and most enigmatic players (Bynum and Turner). That one worries me. You can get away with one enigma (see: Rondo, Rajon), but if you have two, suddenly there's a risk that they'll be hanging out and enabling each other's moodiness OR trying to out-enigma each other. Not saying it can't work … just saying it's a red flag.


right now, the sixers have evan turner, andrew bynum, nick young, and kwame brown. that is an amazing collection of unstable personalities.

add to that that the veteran core from the past years (iguodala, brand, williams) is now gone, and those guys (specifically bynum and turner) really are the leaders in the lockeroom now.


this could be amazingly entertaining. doubly so if they're actually good.


*edit* oh, and add to that the sixers have the NBA's token republican, spencer hawes.


   1840. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: August 10, 2012 at 11:22 AM (#4205243)
and Howard is still out until December or so with the back injury.

Has that been confirmed?


No. In fact, it's not even a real rumor far as I can tell. Only people that seem to think that are Lakers fans, and no one here has sent me a single link that even implies him missing any time is possible and I haven't seen anything anywhere on it.

Yeah, that's a pretty great deal for them. I kinda wonder who's going to start for them at the guard. Do they run the double PG lineup at the tip off? I have mixed feelings about this move for Denver, though, because they also just made their path to the finals that much harder.

I think they just play Iggy/Gallo together at 2/3 and matchup defensively as necessry. Iggy can guard most 2's, IMO. Good point on them helping the Lakers though. I'd have to think they'd be happy with a series win with this team at this point though, maybe hope OKC/LA meet in the 2nd round so the Nugs can sneak into the WCF.
   1841. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: August 10, 2012 at 11:25 AM (#4205251)
This is almost an Otis Smith trade: the Magic gave up the best player, took a bad contract (possibly two) back, and didn't dump any.

To be fair, they dumped Richardson (3yrs/$18mil) and Duhon (1yr,$3.25mil!). The only real bad contracts they still have is Hedo, and that's only one more season, and Big Baby. Unfortunately, they cancelled that out by taking Harrington back, even though he's only one more year guaranteed. On the other hand, they will have a ton of cap space next offseason, but no talent or picks worth that much.
   1842. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: August 10, 2012 at 11:28 AM (#4205255)
KBergCBS: Assuming Dwight re-signs, rough math for Lakers' guaranteed commitments for '13-'14, first year of super tax: $92M for six players.

KBergCBS: Based on $75M tax line, Lakers would owe $34.3M in tax for those six players at $92M alone. That's $126M for half a team.


It's just money.
   1843. andrewberg Posted: August 10, 2012 at 11:29 AM (#4205259)
Seriously, how do the Lakers get teams to continually take the worst possible trades?


Basketball reasons.
   1844. Jimmy P Posted: August 10, 2012 at 11:36 AM (#4205267)
On the other hand, they will have a ton of cap space next offseason, but no talent or picks worth that much.

Well, the Magic pick is going to be pretty valuable. It's a pretty terrible roster.

They could make some moves. They'll have assets to move and room to take on big deals, but I think we've again seen the value of cap space this summer.
   1845. NJ in DC Posted: August 10, 2012 at 11:39 AM (#4205273)
Fun exercise: 1. Rank the top 15 players in the NBA 2. Group them by team.
   1846. andrewberg Posted: August 10, 2012 at 11:43 AM (#4205278)
Fun exercise: 1. Rank the top 15 players in the NBA 2. Group them by team.


Do they have to be in exact order? Because I am having trouble telling if I should rank Shved ahead of or behind Kirilenko.
   1847. Jimmy P Posted: August 10, 2012 at 11:49 AM (#4205288)
Wasn't the lockout supposed to prevent this sort of thing?

Stern looks like an idiot. First two offseasons after the lockout and the best two players on the market have been traded to desirable market teams. Yup, lockout was really worth it.
   1848. Spivey Posted: August 10, 2012 at 12:22 PM (#4205319)
Re: 1847

I agree - I don't think they did much to discourage this with the lockout. Outside of ending free agency, which isn't going to happen, it seems like there's only a couple of options:

Institute pretty strict rules on compensation for when teams lose players and gain players, similar to what MLB did. It wouldn't be perfect but if you lost a type "A" type free agent and got a number of lottery balls or a guaranteed pick in the 5-10 range, it'd help. Same for teams that sign guys like this - you sign 3 type A guys and you lose 3 first rounders. Granted, this will be a less effective deterrant because they'll be worth less when you're good. Nevertheless, late first rounders for a team like Miami is still an important way to build roster depth when you're already at the cap limit.

The second option, which is probably a lot easier, is just get rid of the max contract or adjust it to be much closer to a team's full salary cap.
   1849. NJ in DC Posted: August 10, 2012 at 12:26 PM (#4205326)
My apologies if I forgot anyone since I did this quickly. I also went 20 deep.

LeBron James, MIA

Dwight Howard, LAL
Chris Paul, LAC
Kevin Durant, OKC

Dwyane Wade, MIA
Russell Westbrook, OKC
Kevin Love, MIN
Derrick Rose,CHI
Steve Nash, LAL
Andrew Bynum, PHI
Kobe Bryant, LAL

Lamarcus Aldridge, POR
Pau Gasol, LAL
Chris Bosh, MIA
Blake Griffin, LAC

Kevin Garnett, BOS
Kyrie Irving, CLE
Rajon Rondo, BOS
Tyson Chandler, NYK
Tim Duncan, SAS

Totals: 4 LAL, 3 MIA, 2 OKC, 2 LAC, 2 BOS, 1 MIN, 1 CHI, 1 PHI, 1 POR, 1 SAS, 1 NYK, 1 CLE
   1850. NJ in DC Posted: August 10, 2012 at 12:28 PM (#4205328)
Stern looks like an idiot. First two offseasons after the lockout and the best two players on the market have been traded to desirable market teams. Yup, lockout was really worth it.

I find comments like this funny. Regardless of what the rhetoric was, the point of the lockout was more money in the owners pocket and they got that, so, yeah, it was worth it. YMMV.
   1851. JJ1986 Posted: August 10, 2012 at 12:30 PM (#4205330)
My apologies if I forgot anyone since I did this quickly.


Deron Williams, or was he left off on purpose?
   1852. Jimmy P Posted: August 10, 2012 at 12:31 PM (#4205332)
My apologies if I forgot anyone since I did this quickly. I also went 20 deep.


I'd strike Irving for Dirk. I'd drop Bynum down into the tier below where you have him, and probably Love, too.

Deron Williams, or was he left off on purpose?


I think after last season it's justified
   1853. Booey Posted: August 10, 2012 at 12:33 PM (#4205333)
#1848 - Option 3: contract the Lakers and Heat. :)
   1854. Booey Posted: August 10, 2012 at 12:36 PM (#4205337)
Melo - Not much love for your namesake, eh? I agree that Anthony is overrated, but I'd still put him in the lower tier of the top 20. Maybe Amar'e too.

And yes, D-Will deserves to be there. And Irving isn't there yet. Not sure about Aldridge, either.
   1855. JJ1986 Posted: August 10, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4205339)
Update on the Howard trade. Everything will be alright for Orlando as they also add the missing piece - Josh McRoberts.
   1856. Spivey Posted: August 10, 2012 at 12:45 PM (#4205342)
I'd put Marc Gasol over Duncan, I think. I'd take off Irving, unless we were considering the next couple of years, in which case there'd be several things I'd change. I'd find a way to include Ginobili too.
   1857. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: August 10, 2012 at 12:56 PM (#4205348)
1996/97 - Shaq
1999/00 - Phil
2003/04 - Malone, Payton
2007/08 - Gasol
2012/13 - Howard, Nash

Clockwork.

Payton and Malone were both past their primes in 2004, so the rule allowed the Lakers to get both to make up for it. The rule also allowed them to pick up two in 2012 since Stern almost violated it the year before by vetoing the Paul trade.


Kobe was traded to the Lakers in 1996 as well. For Divac as a draft-day trade.
   1858. NJ in DC Posted: August 10, 2012 at 01:12 PM (#4205357)
Legitimately forgot Dirk, but I would put him in the melee for 21-25 with Melo, Parker, Ginobli, M. Gasol, Deron and maybe Harden too. Yes, I think Kyrie is that good. Point being, LAL is loaded and I’m excited for the season to start to see how this all unfolds.

Are the LAL more likely to amnesty World Peace or use him and Jamison as an O/D platoon at the 3 spot?
   1859. Booey Posted: August 10, 2012 at 01:19 PM (#4205361)
Kobe was traded to the Lakers in 1996 as well. For Divac as a draft-day trade.


Yeah, I remembered that, but didn't include it because Bryant was a straight out of high school gamble when the Lakers traded an established player for him. Can't really complain about that.

Kobe BECAME a HOFer with the Lakers; the others were all already on a HOF pace before they ever donned the devils purple and gold.
   1860. AROM Posted: August 10, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4205362)
If you amnesty Metta you can't spend that money elsewhere and get comparable value at this point. From every other move they seem to be more interested in winning a championship than saving $, so he has to stay.
   1861. Jimmy P Posted: August 10, 2012 at 01:26 PM (#4205366)
Legitimately forgot Dirk, but I would put him in the melee for 21-25 with Melo, Parker, Ginobli, M. Gasol, Deron and maybe Harden too

At this point I think Dirk's better than Duncan, Griffin, and possibly Rondo.

Are the LAL more likely to amnesty World Peace or use him and Jamison as an O/D platoon at the 3 spot?


May as well keep him this season. There's no reason to get rid of him (World Peace). He's not proven to be a distraction, he does dirty work, and he's a warm body that plays at least NBA average. Next season his salary may save tax dollars, but let it ride this year.
   1862. Jimmy P Posted: August 10, 2012 at 01:29 PM (#4205370)
And the best player with my birthday is Monty Williams. Yuck
   1863. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: August 10, 2012 at 01:46 PM (#4205380)
Some useful players on my b-day team. Bob Tough sounds like he would be the enforcer type, but he was listed at 6'0", 185. He's listed at G/F!

Bismack Biyombo
Matt Carroll
Terry Driscoll
Jeff Green
John Long
Bob Tough
   1864. jmurph Posted: August 10, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4205381)
And the best player with my birthday is Monty Williams. Yuck


Mine is Larry Bird, so I guess there's a handful of possible dates up for grabs to top that.
   1865. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: August 10, 2012 at 01:55 PM (#4205391)
I share a birthday with Kevin Garnett.

I'd feel better about this if KG didn't act like KG.
   1866. Joel W Posted: August 10, 2012 at 02:05 PM (#4205400)
Bradford Doolittle had a writeup for BPro/Insider that boiled down to "Lakers didn't actually get that much better with this trade." I think this is my biggest problem with projection models when dealing with transcendent players. Deal a guy with a 19 PER for a guy with a 15 PER and I think you'll get whatever the equivalent number of wins is. Take Dwight, between 2006 and 2011 led defenses that were never outside the top 6 in the league. If healthy, he'll be engaged next year, and I'd be shocked if their defense is worse than 6th in the league. On the flip side, you have Nash, for whom you can basically say the same thing. Last year he led a bunch of not much to the 9th best offense in the league. If I had to guess, the Lakers will be in the top 3 in offense and defense next year. I just don't think the projection system can capture the players who alter everything a team can do.
   1867. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: August 10, 2012 at 02:35 PM (#4205445)
The final deal:

-- Orlando sends Howard, Earl Clark and Chris Duhon to the Lakers and Jason Richardson to the 76ers.

-- L.A. sends Andrew Bynum to Philly, and Christian Eyenga, Josh McRoberts, a conditional 2017 first-round pick and a conditional 2015 second-round pick to Orlando.

-- Denver sends Al Harrington and Arron Afflalo to Orlando with a 2013 second-round pick and a 2014 first-round pick from the Nuggets or Knicks.

-- Philadelphia sends Andre Iguodala to Denver and Nikola Vucevic, Moe Harkless and a conditional first-round pick to Orlando. The Philly pick is lottery-protected in 2013 and '14, top-11 protected in '15 and top-8 protected in '16. If the Magic don't get the pick by '16, they get two second-round picks from the Sixers.


Seeing the pick the Magic getting from the Nuggets can come from the Knicks, I almost tempted to try and trace back to picks to the original teams to see who else we can link to the deal.

---

I'd drop Bynum down into the tier below where you have him, and probably Love, too.

We all know how you feel about Love, but you seem to be the outlier still underrating him.
   1868. andrewberg Posted: August 10, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4205457)
We all know how you feel about Love, but you seem to be the outlier still underrating him.


He has been the third or fourth best player on Team USA and has maybe the best per 40 minute numbers in the tournament. Pretending that he needs to prove something against better competition is old news.

---

Hey, remember when OKC should have dumped Perkins?
   1869. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: August 10, 2012 at 03:00 PM (#4205475)
More on the picks the Magic are getting:

KBergCBS: According to official breakdown of draft considerations to Orlando, the 2013 second-rounder from Denver is GSW's pick ...

KBergCBS: (cont.) the 2014 first from Denver is the least favorable between DEN and NYK picks.

KBergCBS: Philly first (after 2013 pick conveyed to MIA): lottery-protected in '15 and '16, top-11 protected in '17, top-8 protected in '18.

KBergCBS: If Philly pick not conveyed to Orlando by '18, it becomes secound-round picks in '18 and '19.

KBergCBS: Lakers' 2015 second-rounder is 31-40 protected. If not conveyed, pick disappears.

KBergCBS: Lakers' first (after PHX conditions satisfied) is 1-5 protected in '17. If not conveyed by '17, it becomes two seconds in '17 and '18.


I mean, the Magic even got screwed on the pick protections (except for getting the Warriors' 2nd rounder over Denver's; Denver really came out of this deal unscathed). Geez. I'm surprised this deal even got done, considering all these complications. I guess they were just so worn down, they couldn't fight back/negotiate any further.
   1870. The Mighty Quintana Posted: August 10, 2012 at 03:15 PM (#4205503)
My birthday team includes three guys born 3 years apart who played most of their careers in the same frontcourt together (the late 70's ATL Hawks).
I guess it was like a real-life "Fish that Saved Pittsburgh", except with Gemini's instead of Pisces', and except for the fact the Hawks were pretty mediocre.

C - Tom McMillen (The Senator!)
F - Steve Hawes (Spencer's uncle)
F - Dan Roundfield (RIP)
G - Willie Burton
G - Sam Mack
6M - Mehmet Okur
   1871. Jimmy P Posted: August 10, 2012 at 03:40 PM (#4205542)
He has been the third or fourth best player on Team USA and has maybe the best per 40 minute numbers in the tournament. Pretending that he needs to prove something against better competition is old news.

I just want to see him on a winning team. I always am leery of guys that put up great numbers on bad teams. That's all. I like his game, I like watching him, and I like his interviews. Before I rank him in the top 10 players in the league, though, I want to see him elevate his team.

Is there a limit on how far in advance you can trade picks? I know you can't trade two in a row, but the Lakers are now out to 2017 on picks. I think it'd be really funny if they threw a 2022 pick into a trade.
   1872. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: August 10, 2012 at 03:58 PM (#4205566)
I just want to see him on a winning team. I always am leery of guys that put up great numbers on bad teams. That's all. I like his game, I like watching him, and I like his interviews. Before I rank him in the top 10 players in the league, though, I want to see him elevate his team.

So if he puts up the exact same numbers, you'll retroactively realize how good he's been? What if his numbers decline but the team still improves - does that help or hurt him?
   1873. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: August 10, 2012 at 04:33 PM (#4205594)
Meeks to Lakers for 2 yrs, $3mil, 2nd year is a team option.
   1874. jmurph Posted: August 10, 2012 at 04:36 PM (#4205600)
Meeks to Lakers for 2 yrs, $3mil, 2nd year is a team option.


Ugh, I hate it when superstars like Dwight Howard and Steve Nash and Jodie Meeks conspire to form super teams.
   1875. jmurph Posted: August 10, 2012 at 04:37 PM (#4205601)
I kid, that's a decent signing.
   1876. andrewberg Posted: August 10, 2012 at 04:44 PM (#4205610)
Meeks is in a class of player who can get guaranteed contracts ranging from $1m to $30m with seemingly no rhyme or reason. Jamal Crawford just signed for $21m. Meeks signed for 3.
   1877. Spivey Posted: August 10, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4205616)
So if he puts up the exact same numbers, you'll retroactively realize how good he's been? What if his numbers decline but the team still improves - does that help or hurt him?


Depends if he learns the secret of winning. Then he'll get a few page footnote in TBOB and all will be forgiven. There will be 2 sexist jokes made in the footnote.
   1878. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: August 10, 2012 at 04:52 PM (#4205619)
I wonder what kind of reception Howard will get on the road next year.

2 yrs 3 mil is a perfect contract for a player who might end up being useful and has some upside, which Meeks is overqualified for.
   1879. Manny Coon Posted: August 10, 2012 at 04:54 PM (#4205622)
Meeks is in a class of player who can get guaranteed contracts ranging from $1m to $30m with seemingly no rhyme or reason. Jamal Crawford just signed for $21m. Meeks signed for 3.


Seriously, if Jeff Green really more valuable than Meeks? Crawford isn't. It seems so random, obviously having a more famous name or more hype when you came out of college helps. Ronnie Brewer getting minimum compared to guys like Crawford or Landry Fields makes no sense either.

One guy I kind of like is Derrick Brown who was probably the best player on the Bobcats last year and was average on pretty much all the advanced metrics and he got his qualifying offered pulled and I don't even know if he'll get a guaranteed contract.
   1880. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: August 10, 2012 at 04:58 PM (#4205626)
me too (derrick brown), though i think those metrics overrate him a bit.
i've been clamoring for meeks all offseason (as a budget signing) - so i approve.
   1881. Manny Coon Posted: August 10, 2012 at 05:14 PM (#4205641)
me too (derrick brown), though i think those metrics overrate him a bit.


They might, but he does consistently well in all of them that I've seen (slightly below average in PER and WS, above average Roland (both +/- numbers and production numbers), well above average in crazy old WP), I just don't know how he could be systematically overrated by all of them. He seems to have a reputation as a pretty good defender and for being a tough hard worker, was a good college player and played even better once given more minutes last year. He's not a great three point shooter which I know a lot of teams are looking for but he a very efficient scorer otherwise. I just don't see how Jeff Green and Landry Fields could be worth so much more.

I like the Clippers and would have definitely preferred Meeks (and whole of other people) to Crawford. Especially for how much each ended up signing for.
   1882. Jimmy P Posted: August 10, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4205644)
So if he puts up the exact same numbers, you'll retroactively realize how good he's been?

When did I say he wasn't good?

Is it so wrong that I think a guy who's in the top 10 in the NBA should be on a winning team? If he's that good, shouldn't his team win more games? We make a big deal about how one guy can turn the tide, but when that argument doesn't work for a guy everyone likes we don't think it's true? Some guys put up great numbers on bad teams. It doesn't make them good, there's more to it than that.
   1883. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 10, 2012 at 05:33 PM (#4205667)
Is it so wrong that I think a guy who's in the top 10 in the NBA should be on a winning team? If he's that good, shouldn't his team win more games?
There were a couple of seasons there where Elton Brand was clearly a top 10 player, but the Clippers couldn't get to 41 wins.
   1884. andrewberg Posted: August 10, 2012 at 05:41 PM (#4205676)
Is it so wrong that I think a guy who's in the top 10 in the NBA should be on a winning team? If he's that good, shouldn't his team win more games? We make a big deal about how one guy can turn the tide, but when that argument doesn't work for a guy everyone likes we don't think it's true? Some guys put up great numbers on bad teams. It doesn't make them good, there's more to it than that.


There is such a thing as a supporting cast that is below average, or even replacement level.
   1885. Booey Posted: August 10, 2012 at 06:28 PM (#4205730)
Is it so wrong that I think a guy who's in the top 10 in the NBA should be on a winning team? If he's that good, shouldn't his team win more games?


KG was on a losing team his last couple years in Minny. Kobe was on a losing team in 2005. Even Jordan's Bulls had a losing record his first few seasons.
   1886. Booey Posted: August 10, 2012 at 06:35 PM (#4205740)
I tend to think DWill has been underrated the last few years cuz of the losing team factor too. This was a guy who was the best player on a team that averaged 52 wins a year from 2007-2010 in a very tough conference and the debate of Williams vs Paul for the title of "best PG in the NBA" wasn't stupid at the time.

But now he's not even in the top 20 players in the league cuz the Nets suck? I don't know...
   1887. Manny Coon Posted: August 10, 2012 at 06:36 PM (#4205742)
How good would the Bobcats have been this past season any one of Kobe, Howard, Paul, Wade, Durant, Rose or whoever? I don't think they would have been anywhere close to .500 (I'm not counting Lebron, he was kind of miracle worker squeezing out wins in Cleveland)
   1888. Manny Coon Posted: August 10, 2012 at 06:42 PM (#4205746)
I tend to think DWill has been underrated the last few years cuz of the losing team factor too. This was a guy who was the best player on a team that averaged 52 wins a year from 2007-2010 in a very tough conference and the debate of Williams vs Paul for the title of "best PG in the NBA" wasn't stupid at the time.


I think the Paul/Williams debate was kind of like the old Lebron/Melo debate where the one with better teammates had the comparison skewed in his favor and it has become obvious now the roles have been reversed. Williams is good, but he's really not at that level, the Jazz were a good deep team when they have Williams. Boozer, Millsap, Kirilenko, Korver, Brewer, Matthews or Harpring, Okur that is strong supporting cast, particularly compared to what Paul had to work with in New Orleans. That Jazz team looks constructed pretty similarly to last year's Bulls, who won even more games during the regular season.
   1889. JuanGone..except1game Posted: August 10, 2012 at 06:51 PM (#4205749)
i've been clamoring for meeks all offseason (as a budget signing) - so i approve.


It's wierd that Meeks has been such a target for Lakers fans, but he's a great signing for this team. Young, cheap, reasonably athletic, can shoot the 3 a little and more importantly provide Kobe some rest.

The more that I think how this is transpired for the Lakers, has any coach had as much pressure on them than Mike Brown for a single season? Spo was lucky that Lebron was the singular touchstone for the Heat, so he would have only gotten a small percentage of blame. But I feel that if this doesn't work, it's going to fall on Mike Brown a lot more than either Kobe or Howard. Brown has to deal with an older team and he's not good at minute allocation. He has what seems on paper, a close to perfect offensive team with 4 guys who could all average over 20 with great %'s, yet he loves to call plays and has no idea what his offensive philosophy is. If this team has a bad stretch at any point or one of the older guys gets injured, he is going to make D'Antoni's experience in NY at the end look mild by comparison.
   1890. Booey Posted: August 10, 2012 at 06:57 PM (#4205756)
That Jazz team looks constructed pretty similarly to last year's Bulls, who won even more games during the regular season.


Well, the Bulls look similar to the Jazz of a few years ago in part because they had some of the exact same players (Boozer, Korver, Brewer). But if Williams was overrated cuz of his supporting cast, isn't it quite possible that we may be doing the same thing with Rose and his similar cast?

(his supporting cast, not the one on his leg)
   1891. The District Attorney Posted: August 10, 2012 at 07:01 PM (#4205762)
I tend to think DWill has been underrated the last few years cuz of the losing team factor too. This was a guy who was the best player on a team that averaged 52 wins a year from 2007-2010 in a very tough conference and the debate of Williams vs Paul for the title of "best PG in the NBA" wasn't stupid at the time.

But now he's not even in the top 20 players in the league cuz the Nets suck?
Well, the Nets are presumably about to not suck, so that should straighten it out, right?
   1892. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: August 10, 2012 at 07:11 PM (#4205775)
Subjectively, Brown is the kind of journeyman that seems to do well on bad teams - living off garbage baskets and good enough on defense that you'll attack the poor defensive options around him. Additionally, his plus minus is helped buy garbage time play.
More objectively, his lack of range and playmaking ability are likely not fully accounted for in those metrics.

Granted, this is all conjecture on my part.

Still, I'd pick him up in a heartbeat for the price he's likely available for now.

***

The other thing with Meeks is defense. Scouting reports are at best mixed, but the numbers like him and he's looked solid when I've tuned in...
   1893. robinred Posted: August 10, 2012 at 07:28 PM (#4205788)
Just got back from four days out of town with the GF. What are you guys talking about?
   1894. robinred Posted: August 10, 2012 at 07:55 PM (#4205808)
Couple of things:

Manhy Coon said he thought that Bynum was better than Bryant. I don't agree. As I pointed out, Bynum and Gasol's efficiency cratered without Bryant, when they got more shots, although the team played well. Bynum is also very slow getting up and down the floor--Zach Lowe discussed this during the playoffs. He is also not very good at passing out of doubles. I think the three players were of more or less equal value to the team, with Gasol likely a close third. But Bynum has more faults as a player than just getting hurt (although he is obviously a very good player). Philadelphia is a good landing spot for him, and I think Simmons' armchair psychology about him and Turner is mostly just Simmons' Inner Celtic Fanboy on the job. Bynum has his issues, but the key for him will be the same one it always is: staying on the floor.

As to Howard's coming here, as I said, and the K Bros at ESPNLA said, "Defense." Howard's mobility will be needed with the rest of team being ancient, as noted.

And yes--the pressure on Mike Brown will be enormous. Basically, if the team doesn't win the title and retain Howard, he has failed cataclysmically, particularly since that scenario quite possibly puts Howard in Dallas alongside Chris Paul. I see the Lakers as co-favorites, along with Miami and OKC, for the title. Miami still has James. OKC still has Durant and Co. and the now-suddenly-important-again Perkins. The Lakers' starting lineup, other than Howard, will be one of the oldest in the history of the NBA, and I am not sure that Pau and Howard will click all that well.

That said, Nash/Bryant/Gasol/Howard is obviously an awesome core of talent, even with three of the guys being old and the other guy coming off a back injury.
   1895. NJ in DC Posted: August 10, 2012 at 07:58 PM (#4205809)
I tend to think DWill has been underrated the last few years cuz of the losing team factor too. This was a guy who was the best player on a team that averaged 52 wins a year from 2007-2010 in a very tough conference and the debate of Williams vs Paul for the title of "best PG in the NBA" wasn't stupid at the time.

RDF.
   1896. robinred Posted: August 10, 2012 at 08:10 PM (#4205818)
That should be "Manny."
   1897. robinred Posted: August 10, 2012 at 08:21 PM (#4205820)
As to Orlando, I would say give Hennigan a little time and see what he does over the next 2-3 years, and what else this move leads to.
   1898. Booey Posted: August 10, 2012 at 08:30 PM (#4205824)
Well, the Nets are presumably about to not suck, so that should straighten it out, right?


Guess we'll see. Don't get me wrong; I don't think Williams is as good as Paul (though I think he was close in 2008-2010), but I don't think the difference is so huge that Paul might be one of the top 5 players in the game and DWill isn't even top 20.

RDF.


Not sure what this stands for, sorry...
   1899. robinred Posted: August 10, 2012 at 08:32 PM (#4205825)
Really Damn Funny.
   1900. andrewberg Posted: August 10, 2012 at 08:32 PM (#4205826)
Welcome back robin. I know we were all interested to hear who is on your birthday team.
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