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I think that still beats mine - Mike Dunleavy (Jr.), Jason Terry, Sherman Douglas. And Pete Myers.
in: bynum, richardson
out: iguodala, vucevic, harkless, future draft pick (which is kind of interesting, because i'm fairly sure that the sixers cannot trade any of their next 4 first round draft picks)
Lakers are clear favorites for the title now, IMO*. Pretty decent move for Denver, too, even if Iggy isn't a true #1 guy, he seems like a great fit on that team. I need to see Philly's roster now to know how I feel about them, but this feels like a good move for them, too.
Orlando though, geez.
*Kobe and Nash could both all of a sudden hit a wall and show their age/mileage, but I'm not betting on it. They match up wonderfully with the Heat, Thunder, etc.
If this report is right, what the hell is Orlando doing? It seems insane.
Who, as I've noted before, was in a U.S. history class I graded papers for back when I was a TA at Arizona State. I gave him something like a 37 on a final (I didn't get the impression that he was stupid, but rather that some sort of learning disability was involved); a few weeks later, IIRC, he decided to come out early. Surely that contributed to his decision.
Oh well ... welcome to LA, pouting locker-room cancer!
Keep pretending you have mixed feelings...:-)
starting lineup:
holiday (22)
turner (24)
wright (28)/young (27)/richardson (32)
young (24)/brown (30)/hawes (24)/allen (23)
bynum (25)
bench:
2 of nick young, jason richardson, dorrell wright, or (god help us) evan turner
3 of thaddeus young, kwame brown, spencer hawes, or lavoy allen
royal ivey (31)
maalik wayns (21)
arnett moultrie (22)
there's some good depth there, and for a team that was one of the youngest in the NBA last year, they've brought in some quality veterans, and the younger players on the team are now starting to grow into their primes.
i don't really think this is that good of a team, and bynum's impending free agency is a fairly large concern, but iguodala was also an impending free agent, and harkless and vucevic aren't really anything more than lottery tickets.
SG: Kobe Bryant
PF: Pau Gasol
C: Dwight Howard
You or I could play small forward for that team and it'd still be a title contender. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true. Please be true.
Come on Stern, time to work your magic again!
Sigh...
and while bynum isn't really a very good defender, lavoy allen is actually pretty stout at that end of the floor.
adn i also really, really like the combination of spencer hawes and thaddeus young coming off the bench. they played about 400 minutes together last season, and while there wasnt much difference in their on/off court numbers in terms of counting stats, thaddeus young shot 6% better from the floor with hawes on the floor, while hawes shot 8% better with young on the floor.
i'm not exactly sure how kwame brown fits into that, but considering the injury histories of each of bynum, hawes, and brown, i can't really think it's overkill to have all 3 on the roster.
oh, and i know this has been linked before, but now, with bynum joining kwame brown on the sixers, i feel it appropriate to post this:
Well, at least I've got that to console myself with after today's trade. Being from VT means you get used to not really having anybody noteworthy being from where you are.
Where in the NBA by-laws does it say that once a decade or so a Hall of Fame center has to get traded to the Lakers? I've spent the evening thinking uncharitable things about Howard and Nash's backs, Kobe's knee, and MWP's decision-making. On the other hand, I am excited to see how Iggy slots in with the Nuggets. If he gets to play a role on that team more like he does on the Team USA roster, it could be fun.
Mostly, though, I will join the "What was Orlando thinking?" crowd. (Several people on twitter have also pointed out that this means Orlando ditched a really good coach for no good reason.)
Between the Warriors with Nelson-Webber and the Jazz with Sloan-Williams, this wouldn't be the first time a player-coach feud resulted in the team losing both the player and the coach.
With guards blowing by Nash and Bryant on a regular basis it's nice to have the paint defended by Howard. Also great to see Howard copying his career path from the Shaq book - Magic/Lakers. Maybe he gets traded to the Heat within the week once he learns he can't coexist with Kobe...
And how is Orlando not getting rid of Hedo? Incredible. The Nets deal was miles better 6 months ago, a month ago, and this fall when it can happen again. Just crazy.
EDIT: Think about it: LA is giving up less than the original rumor yesterday (with Pau in the deal), and receiving more (in that they get to keep Pau and not pay Harrington for 3 years).
2nd: Germany, Serbia and France, with 14.
What ever Orlando's braintrust is drinking, I don't want it. Great for everybody else, though.
What are the odds of Denver using that cap space to get a better player than Iggy? Probably not much.
The Magic? All I can say is wow. I think I'd rather just make Dwight play out the season and leave as a free agent than get this return. From what I can find Harrington's contract is not guaranteed after 2012-13, so that's good.
It doesn't just apply to centers. The little known rule states that the Lakers are entitled to a new HOFer or two (including coaches) every 3-5 years.
1996/97 - Shaq
1999/00 - Phil
2003/04 - Malone, Payton
2007/08 - Gasol
2012/13 - Howard, Nash
Clockwork.
Payton and Malone were both past their primes in 2004, so the rule allowed the Lakers to get both to make up for it. The rule also allowed them to pick up two in 2012 since Stern almost violated it the year before by vetoing the Paul trade.
Well, I don't think he can really kick himself for Orlando not accepting a better deal from him. That's got to be incredibly frustrating.
Yeah, that's a pretty great deal for them. I kinda wonder who's going to start for them at the guard. Do they run the double PG lineup at the tip off? I have mixed feelings about this move for Denver, though, because they also just made their path to the finals that much harder.
So, how many wins for the Lakers in 2012-2013?
I'm putting it at 58 and a lot of "disappointment" articles. I am fairly unsure of how Pau/Howard play together and Howard is still out until December or so with the back injury.
They didn't have a shot at the Finals either way, so they made the right move by at least trying to improve their own team a bit, IMO.
I'll say 59. Kobe's Lakers have made the Finals 7 times, but only twice have they gone all gangbusters on the rest of the league during the regular season (2000, 2009). Usually they seem to coast a bit and settle in the 56-58 range and then turn it on in the playoffs. I'm guessing they still finish a game or so behind the Thunder for the #1 seed, but then beat them in the WCF and give Stern his wet dream fantasy Lakers/Heat Final.
Has that been confirmed?
Can't believe Iggy brought more back than Howard. This is almost an Otis Smith trade: the Magic gave up the best player, took a bad contract (possibly two) back, and didn't dump any. Good thing they fired SVG and extended Jameer.
Anthology of crotch shots on Grantland with an awesome Tweet from Julius Hodge.
right now, the sixers have evan turner, andrew bynum, nick young, and kwame brown. that is an amazing collection of unstable personalities.
add to that that the veteran core from the past years (iguodala, brand, williams) is now gone, and those guys (specifically bynum and turner) really are the leaders in the lockeroom now.
this could be amazingly entertaining. doubly so if they're actually good.
*edit* oh, and add to that the sixers have the NBA's token republican, spencer hawes.
No. In fact, it's not even a real rumor far as I can tell. Only people that seem to think that are Lakers fans, and no one here has sent me a single link that even implies him missing any time is possible and I haven't seen anything anywhere on it.
Yeah, that's a pretty great deal for them. I kinda wonder who's going to start for them at the guard. Do they run the double PG lineup at the tip off? I have mixed feelings about this move for Denver, though, because they also just made their path to the finals that much harder.
I think they just play Iggy/Gallo together at 2/3 and matchup defensively as necessry. Iggy can guard most 2's, IMO. Good point on them helping the Lakers though. I'd have to think they'd be happy with a series win with this team at this point though, maybe hope OKC/LA meet in the 2nd round so the Nugs can sneak into the WCF.
To be fair, they dumped Richardson (3yrs/$18mil) and Duhon (1yr,$3.25mil!). The only real bad contracts they still have is Hedo, and that's only one more season, and Big Baby. Unfortunately, they cancelled that out by taking Harrington back, even though he's only one more year guaranteed. On the other hand, they will have a ton of cap space next offseason, but no talent or picks worth that much.
It's just money.
Basketball reasons.
Well, the Magic pick is going to be pretty valuable. It's a pretty terrible roster.
They could make some moves. They'll have assets to move and room to take on big deals, but I think we've again seen the value of cap space this summer.
Do they have to be in exact order? Because I am having trouble telling if I should rank Shved ahead of or behind Kirilenko.
Stern looks like an idiot. First two offseasons after the lockout and the best two players on the market have been traded to desirable market teams. Yup, lockout was really worth it.
I agree - I don't think they did much to discourage this with the lockout. Outside of ending free agency, which isn't going to happen, it seems like there's only a couple of options:
Institute pretty strict rules on compensation for when teams lose players and gain players, similar to what MLB did. It wouldn't be perfect but if you lost a type "A" type free agent and got a number of lottery balls or a guaranteed pick in the 5-10 range, it'd help. Same for teams that sign guys like this - you sign 3 type A guys and you lose 3 first rounders. Granted, this will be a less effective deterrant because they'll be worth less when you're good. Nevertheless, late first rounders for a team like Miami is still an important way to build roster depth when you're already at the cap limit.
The second option, which is probably a lot easier, is just get rid of the max contract or adjust it to be much closer to a team's full salary cap.
LeBron James, MIA
Dwight Howard, LAL
Chris Paul, LAC
Kevin Durant, OKC
Dwyane Wade, MIA
Russell Westbrook, OKC
Kevin Love, MIN
Derrick Rose,CHI
Steve Nash, LAL
Andrew Bynum, PHI
Kobe Bryant, LAL
Lamarcus Aldridge, POR
Pau Gasol, LAL
Chris Bosh, MIA
Blake Griffin, LAC
Kevin Garnett, BOS
Kyrie Irving, CLE
Rajon Rondo, BOS
Tyson Chandler, NYK
Tim Duncan, SAS
Totals: 4 LAL, 3 MIA, 2 OKC, 2 LAC, 2 BOS, 1 MIN, 1 CHI, 1 PHI, 1 POR, 1 SAS, 1 NYK, 1 CLE
I find comments like this funny. Regardless of what the rhetoric was, the point of the lockout was more money in the owners pocket and they got that, so, yeah, it was worth it. YMMV.
Deron Williams, or was he left off on purpose?
I'd strike Irving for Dirk. I'd drop Bynum down into the tier below where you have him, and probably Love, too.
Deron Williams, or was he left off on purpose?
I think after last season it's justified
And yes, D-Will deserves to be there. And Irving isn't there yet. Not sure about Aldridge, either.
Kobe was traded to the Lakers in 1996 as well. For Divac as a draft-day trade.
Are the LAL more likely to amnesty World Peace or use him and Jamison as an O/D platoon at the 3 spot?
Yeah, I remembered that, but didn't include it because Bryant was a straight out of high school gamble when the Lakers traded an established player for him. Can't really complain about that.
Kobe BECAME a HOFer with the Lakers; the others were all already on a HOF pace before they ever donned the devils purple and gold.
At this point I think Dirk's better than Duncan, Griffin, and possibly Rondo.
Are the LAL more likely to amnesty World Peace or use him and Jamison as an O/D platoon at the 3 spot?
May as well keep him this season. There's no reason to get rid of him (World Peace). He's not proven to be a distraction, he does dirty work, and he's a warm body that plays at least NBA average. Next season his salary may save tax dollars, but let it ride this year.
Bismack Biyombo
Matt Carroll
Terry Driscoll
Jeff Green
John Long
Bob Tough
Mine is Larry Bird, so I guess there's a handful of possible dates up for grabs to top that.
I'd feel better about this if KG didn't act like KG.
Seeing the pick the Magic getting from the Nuggets can come from the Knicks, I almost tempted to try and trace back to picks to the original teams to see who else we can link to the deal.
---
I'd drop Bynum down into the tier below where you have him, and probably Love, too.
We all know how you feel about Love, but you seem to be the outlier still underrating him.
He has been the third or fourth best player on Team USA and has maybe the best per 40 minute numbers in the tournament. Pretending that he needs to prove something against better competition is old news.
---
Hey, remember when OKC should have dumped Perkins?
I mean, the Magic even got screwed on the pick protections (except for getting the Warriors' 2nd rounder over Denver's; Denver really came out of this deal unscathed). Geez. I'm surprised this deal even got done, considering all these complications. I guess they were just so worn down, they couldn't fight back/negotiate any further.
I guess it was like a real-life "Fish that Saved Pittsburgh", except with Gemini's instead of Pisces', and except for the fact the Hawks were pretty mediocre.
C - Tom McMillen (The Senator!)
F - Steve Hawes (Spencer's uncle)
F - Dan Roundfield (RIP)
G - Willie Burton
G - Sam Mack
6M - Mehmet Okur
I just want to see him on a winning team. I always am leery of guys that put up great numbers on bad teams. That's all. I like his game, I like watching him, and I like his interviews. Before I rank him in the top 10 players in the league, though, I want to see him elevate his team.
Is there a limit on how far in advance you can trade picks? I know you can't trade two in a row, but the Lakers are now out to 2017 on picks. I think it'd be really funny if they threw a 2022 pick into a trade.
So if he puts up the exact same numbers, you'll retroactively realize how good he's been? What if his numbers decline but the team still improves - does that help or hurt him?
Ugh, I hate it when superstars like Dwight Howard and Steve Nash and Jodie Meeks conspire to form super teams.
Depends if he learns the secret of winning. Then he'll get a few page footnote in TBOB and all will be forgiven. There will be 2 sexist jokes made in the footnote.
2 yrs 3 mil is a perfect contract for a player who might end up being useful and has some upside, which Meeks is overqualified for.
Seriously, if Jeff Green really more valuable than Meeks? Crawford isn't. It seems so random, obviously having a more famous name or more hype when you came out of college helps. Ronnie Brewer getting minimum compared to guys like Crawford or Landry Fields makes no sense either.
One guy I kind of like is Derrick Brown who was probably the best player on the Bobcats last year and was average on pretty much all the advanced metrics and he got his qualifying offered pulled and I don't even know if he'll get a guaranteed contract.
i've been clamoring for meeks all offseason (as a budget signing) - so i approve.
They might, but he does consistently well in all of them that I've seen (slightly below average in PER and WS, above average Roland (both +/- numbers and production numbers), well above average in crazy old WP), I just don't know how he could be systematically overrated by all of them. He seems to have a reputation as a pretty good defender and for being a tough hard worker, was a good college player and played even better once given more minutes last year. He's not a great three point shooter which I know a lot of teams are looking for but he a very efficient scorer otherwise. I just don't see how Jeff Green and Landry Fields could be worth so much more.
I like the Clippers and would have definitely preferred Meeks (and whole of other people) to Crawford. Especially for how much each ended up signing for.
When did I say he wasn't good?
Is it so wrong that I think a guy who's in the top 10 in the NBA should be on a winning team? If he's that good, shouldn't his team win more games? We make a big deal about how one guy can turn the tide, but when that argument doesn't work for a guy everyone likes we don't think it's true? Some guys put up great numbers on bad teams. It doesn't make them good, there's more to it than that.
There is such a thing as a supporting cast that is below average, or even replacement level.
KG was on a losing team his last couple years in Minny. Kobe was on a losing team in 2005. Even Jordan's Bulls had a losing record his first few seasons.
But now he's not even in the top 20 players in the league cuz the Nets suck? I don't know...
I think the Paul/Williams debate was kind of like the old Lebron/Melo debate where the one with better teammates had the comparison skewed in his favor and it has become obvious now the roles have been reversed. Williams is good, but he's really not at that level, the Jazz were a good deep team when they have Williams. Boozer, Millsap, Kirilenko, Korver, Brewer, Matthews or Harpring, Okur that is strong supporting cast, particularly compared to what Paul had to work with in New Orleans. That Jazz team looks constructed pretty similarly to last year's Bulls, who won even more games during the regular season.
It's wierd that Meeks has been such a target for Lakers fans, but he's a great signing for this team. Young, cheap, reasonably athletic, can shoot the 3 a little and more importantly provide Kobe some rest.
The more that I think how this is transpired for the Lakers, has any coach had as much pressure on them than Mike Brown for a single season? Spo was lucky that Lebron was the singular touchstone for the Heat, so he would have only gotten a small percentage of blame. But I feel that if this doesn't work, it's going to fall on Mike Brown a lot more than either Kobe or Howard. Brown has to deal with an older team and he's not good at minute allocation. He has what seems on paper, a close to perfect offensive team with 4 guys who could all average over 20 with great %'s, yet he loves to call plays and has no idea what his offensive philosophy is. If this team has a bad stretch at any point or one of the older guys gets injured, he is going to make D'Antoni's experience in NY at the end look mild by comparison.
Well, the Bulls look similar to the Jazz of a few years ago in part because they had some of the exact same players (Boozer, Korver, Brewer). But if Williams was overrated cuz of his supporting cast, isn't it quite possible that we may be doing the same thing with Rose and his similar cast?
(his supporting cast, not the one on his leg)
More objectively, his lack of range and playmaking ability are likely not fully accounted for in those metrics.
Granted, this is all conjecture on my part.
Still, I'd pick him up in a heartbeat for the price he's likely available for now.
***
The other thing with Meeks is defense. Scouting reports are at best mixed, but the numbers like him and he's looked solid when I've tuned in...
Manhy Coon said he thought that Bynum was better than Bryant. I don't agree. As I pointed out, Bynum and Gasol's efficiency cratered without Bryant, when they got more shots, although the team played well. Bynum is also very slow getting up and down the floor--Zach Lowe discussed this during the playoffs. He is also not very good at passing out of doubles. I think the three players were of more or less equal value to the team, with Gasol likely a close third. But Bynum has more faults as a player than just getting hurt (although he is obviously a very good player). Philadelphia is a good landing spot for him, and I think Simmons' armchair psychology about him and Turner is mostly just Simmons' Inner Celtic Fanboy on the job. Bynum has his issues, but the key for him will be the same one it always is: staying on the floor.
As to Howard's coming here, as I said, and the K Bros at ESPNLA said, "Defense." Howard's mobility will be needed with the rest of team being ancient, as noted.
And yes--the pressure on Mike Brown will be enormous. Basically, if the team doesn't win the title and retain Howard, he has failed cataclysmically, particularly since that scenario quite possibly puts Howard in Dallas alongside Chris Paul. I see the Lakers as co-favorites, along with Miami and OKC, for the title. Miami still has James. OKC still has Durant and Co. and the now-suddenly-important-again Perkins. The Lakers' starting lineup, other than Howard, will be one of the oldest in the history of the NBA, and I am not sure that Pau and Howard will click all that well.
That said, Nash/Bryant/Gasol/Howard is obviously an awesome core of talent, even with three of the guys being old and the other guy coming off a back injury.
RDF.
Guess we'll see. Don't get me wrong; I don't think Williams is as good as Paul (though I think he was close in 2008-2010), but I don't think the difference is so huge that Paul might be one of the top 5 players in the game and DWill isn't even top 20.
Not sure what this stands for, sorry...
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