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Monday, July 02, 2012

OT: NBA basketball July Thread 2012

I estimate that only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what the site is really about: Jim Furtado trolling his own site when he’s bored.

Tripon Posted: July 02, 2012 at 04:21 PM | 2487 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball

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   1901. Booey Posted: August 10, 2012 at 08:37 PM (#4205829)
Just got back from four days out of town with the GF. What are you guys talking about?


Players who share the same birthday as us. :)

And I guess the Lakers picked up some guy named Howard, or something. Why everyone is making such a big deal out of Josh Howard is beyond me...
   1902. rr Posted: August 10, 2012 at 08:40 PM (#4205831)
Yes--about as "interested" as I am in what Simmons thinks about the Howard deal.

My Bday Team:

PG=PETE MARAVICH
SG=CLYDE DREXLER
SF=OMRI CASSPI
PF=CADILLAC ANDERSON
C=RASTKO CVETKOVICH

Top bench guys: Danny Green, Darrell Armstrong, Cory Alexander
   1903. thok Posted: August 10, 2012 at 08:40 PM (#4205832)
My birthday has Steve Francis, and basically nothing else. Or to put it another way, Donte Greene has played more minutes and has more win shares than the rest of the non-Francis players combined.
   1904. Booey Posted: August 10, 2012 at 08:41 PM (#4205833)
Really Damn Funny.


Nah, Melo. It wasn't that dumb a few years ago. Even Bill Simmons conceded in one of his articles at one point that they were essentially equal (and that was obviously hard for him since he'd said from the beginning that Paul would be clearly better. I'm sure he denies this concession now, of course). And Simmons knows everything. Just ask him.
   1905. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 10, 2012 at 08:53 PM (#4205838)
Simmons' comments on the Howard trade are up on Grantland. Nothing out of the ordinary, but he does make a really good point: The Dallas Mavericks were huge losers this off-season. At one point, we all expected Cuban the Genius to land Deron Williams and Howard and play them with Dirk for another championship run. Now, the Mavs are a fringe playoff team.
   1906. rr Posted: August 10, 2012 at 09:11 PM (#4205845)
Well, that is a good point, but as I have said several times, as has has been mentioned in numerous places on the net, Paul and Howard to Dallas is still in play on the big chessboard unless/until Howard actually extends with the Lakers. Simmons made a fatalistic comment assuming that he will, of course, and Howard has been living in LA while rehabbing. But we'll see.

   1907. Booey Posted: August 10, 2012 at 09:13 PM (#4205846)
From the Simmons mailbag:

Remember the Bridesmaids scene when they were trying on wedding dresses and everyone came down with violent diarrhea? Howard was all five bridesmaids and Orlando's fans were the wedding dresses.


THIS is why I still read Simmons. He's too biased to be a credible analyst, but he makes me laugh often enough to keep coming back.
   1908. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: August 10, 2012 at 09:24 PM (#4205857)
Nah, Melo. It wasn't that dumb a few years ago. Even Bill Simmons conceded in one of his articles at one point that they were essentially equal (and that was obviously hard for him since he'd said from the beginning that Paul would be clearly better. I'm sure he denies this concession now, of course). And Simmons knows everything. Just ask him.

Simmons is/was wrong. Deron Williams is an All-Star. Chris Paul is one of the very best PGs ever. YMMV.
   1909. Booey Posted: August 10, 2012 at 09:30 PM (#4205859)
1908 - In hindsight, yes. A few years back, not quite so obvious.
   1910. rr Posted: August 10, 2012 at 09:30 PM (#4205860)
should be "and has"--edit not working for me.
   1911. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: August 10, 2012 at 09:34 PM (#4205865)
1908 - In hindsight, yes. A few years back, not quite so obvious.

What does this even mean?
   1912. Booey Posted: August 10, 2012 at 09:46 PM (#4205871)
What does this even mean?


It means what I said earlier, that a few years back it wasn't quite as obvious as it is now that Paul is clearly better than Williams. In other words, it wasn't stupid at the time to compare them. It would be now, of course.
   1913. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: August 10, 2012 at 09:54 PM (#4205877)
[1912] That argument doesn't make sense to me because a few years back Paul was better than he is now. Right now he's probably a Top 5 guy, before he was a historically good surefire Top 3 guy. Deron Williams is a very good player, an All-Star, but I just don't think at any point he has ever been NEAR Chris Paul as a player. As someone else pointed out, it's the Melo-LeBron thing where two guys play the same position and are linked by a Draft, but the gap is enormous.
   1914. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: August 10, 2012 at 10:02 PM (#4205883)
Through 2010:

Paul/Williams
PER: 25.6/18.6
TS%: .570/.559
TRB%: 7.5/5.3
AST%: 46.8/41.6
STL%: 3.4/1.5
BLK%: .2/.5
TOV%: 13.2/16.6
ORtg: 121/114
DRtg: 105/109
WSper48: .233/.141

This is not at all close IMO.
   1915. Booey Posted: August 10, 2012 at 10:48 PM (#4205904)
Melo - Most of those numbers you cite are rate stats, which don't take into account durability, where Williams had a clear edge. Paul for example, missed 37 games in 2010, leaving DWill with a clearly more valuable season. I don't think it was that dumb for people at the time to pick Williams as being the better bet to stay healthy going forward, thus giving them a legit reason to think he may be the more valuable commodity of the two.

That said, upon further review, the numbers really are more one sided than I thought, so I'll concede the argument from a SABR standpoint. Maybe I did get a bit lazy and put too much stock into casual fan type of rankings that are heavily influenced by team success and head to head matchups (where the Jazz owned the Hornets). So good call on that one.

But DWill still leads Paul in playoff series wins 4-2. :)
   1916. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: August 10, 2012 at 10:48 PM (#4205905)
Deron's only argument centered on Paul being quite a bit less than healthy.
   1917. rr Posted: August 10, 2012 at 10:55 PM (#4205907)
That said, upon further review, the numbers really are more one sided than I thought, so I'll concede the argument from a SABR standpoint


Well-played. Paul's genius as a basketball player is not always easy to see. A really good example was Blake Griffin's famous dunk over Perkins last year. If you watch the whole play, what Paul does is truly impressive--but very subtle. He makes a lot of plays like that. Here is the you tube link; the announcers go apeshit but say nothing about Paul's pass:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbyOevVAYQI
   1918. rr Posted: August 10, 2012 at 10:56 PM (#4205908)
That link actually does not include about 5 additional seconds of Paul probing the D, but if you pay attention right at the beginning, you can see what he is doing.
   1919. GregD Posted: August 10, 2012 at 11:05 PM (#4205910)
Top this birthday team:
C Benoit Benjamin
PF/Twin Towers James Buddha Edwards
SF/also played C in his day Mel Hutchins
SG (really a SF) Byron Houston
PG Milt Williams (no idea if he was a PG or 2G, to be honest)

So I run 3 centers, and then pick from guys who played fewer than 220 games in their careers for the other spots. Gonna be some shot clock violations.
   1920. nick swisher hygiene Posted: August 10, 2012 at 11:32 PM (#4205920)

1919--you guys could take us, I think.

Birthday team starts out well with Agent Zero at the 2.
unfortunately, our next best player is Pearl Washington--Pearl!,
and things go rapidly further downhill from there, with some 7'0" stiff outta Wisconsin named Paul Grant (#20 pick in 1997 draft!?),and four little guards who got a cup of coffee in the 1940s/50s.

That's right, we go seven deep, #######!


what's the basketball idiom equivalent of "got a cup of coffee in the bigs"?

   1921. Manny Coon Posted: August 11, 2012 at 12:07 AM (#4205931)
My birthday team is terrible:

G-Arron Afflalo
G-Steve Harris
G-Fred Hoiberg
F-Ron Anderson
C-Paul Ruffner

bench
C-Mike Peplowski
G-Dominique Jones

No point guards, unless Micky Dillard and his 200 career minutes, with a PER of 7.0 was a point guard or I go with Mark Wade and his 123 career minutes and 4.9 PER. Most of Ruffner's came as backup a for the 71-72 Pittsburgh Condors.
   1922. rr Posted: August 11, 2012 at 12:20 AM (#4205936)
Howard's own words on his back:

"We'll see what the doctor says," Howard said. "I'm not going to rush it. My back is very serious. I'm going to take my time and make sure I get back 100%. I want to give everybody 100%."

Howard added doctors haven't offered any timetable.


So, he said he doesn't know whether he will be ready to play on 10/30.
   1923. thok Posted: August 11, 2012 at 01:08 AM (#4205967)
Just so everybody can see the gory details of my horrible birthday team

G-Steve Francis
G-Andre Barrett
G-Erick Barkley
F-Donte Green
F-Gary Plummer

Bench
That would require a sixth player.
   1924. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: August 11, 2012 at 02:23 AM (#4205990)
I think I might have the worst birthday team so far.

I have literally never heard of anyone on it. There are no double-digit scorers for their career, and no one who averaged 25 or more minutes a game. The assist leader -- granted this is all per game not per minute -- is someone named Emanual Davis, who apparently played 226 games over six seasons from 1997 to 2003, at a whopping 1.8 assists per game. The star of my team is center Otto Moore, who played 682 games from 1969 to 1977, shooting 45 percent from the field and 60 percent from the line -- nearly made it to 1000 points in a season a couple times. Not a bad player -- he did average a double-double twice -- but he's not gonna carry your team.

Then, a huge dropoff. Second place in games played is Dave Piontek, who played 413 meh games from 1957-1963. Then we have Reggie Slater (259 games between 1994-03, playing more than 30 games in a season twice) and Davis, and then Ernie Barrett who played 131 games over a 2 year career. And those five are all the guys with more than 26 games.

I'm sure some of you historian types have heard of these guys but it's pretty terrible.
   1925. andrewberg Posted: August 11, 2012 at 02:53 AM (#4205995)
Were you born on leap day?
   1926. Booey Posted: August 11, 2012 at 03:02 AM (#4205998)
I mentioned Cousy and Fisher earlier, but here's the best I can do with an entire birthday starting lineup:

F - Jarvis Hayes
F - Ime Udoka
C - Hot Rod Williams
PG - Bob Cousy
SG - Vinny Del Negro

With Fish coming off the bench to provide a timely flop or two whenever Bob gets too embarrassed to continue. Cous ain't gettin' many assists on this team...
   1927. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: August 11, 2012 at 10:15 AM (#4206059)
C - Slava Medvedenko
PF - Sean May
SF - Bill Bridges (no idea)
SG - Ben Gordon
PG - Rudy Fernandez

Kind of awful. Does anyone have a good birthday team? Hmmm, if you get Jordan you also get Gortat and Harrington, which is pretty solid. Shaq, Michael Finley and Sleepy Floyd also looks solid.
   1928. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: August 11, 2012 at 11:03 AM (#4206072)
I liked Reggie slater!

My team is real f/c heavy as well.
- George McGinnis was an ABA all star and my best player, even after downgrading for the weaker competition.
- Antoine Walker is also famous and a multiple A-S, but not particularly good at helping his teams win (never had even an above average season by WS/48, for example). After that... ugh.
- Bob Harrison, a 2 guard from the 50s who was once (bizarrely) an A-S but was otherwise a shooting specialist / rotation player without great shooting numbers. Future coach, though.
- Cornell Warner, backup 4/5 from the 70s
- Rafael Araujo, noted draft bust and awful backup 5
W/ 4 cup of coffee types on the bench.

Both Walker and McGinnis are high usage types who can pass well for their size - we'd need that, I guess.
   1929. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: August 11, 2012 at 11:04 AM (#4206073)
Dp
   1930. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: August 11, 2012 at 11:11 AM (#4206078)
I get Larry Bird for my birthday. The rest of the team is not so impressive except Zaslofsky is pretty decent.
C- Aaron Gray
PF- Al Thornton
SF- Bird
SG- Pat McFarland
PG- Max Zaslofsky
   1931. GregD Posted: August 11, 2012 at 11:47 AM (#4206107)
Does anyone have a good birthday team?
That is the question. I think we have proven that there just haven't been all that many really good basketball players. A team that has two pretty good guys is head and shoulders over the rest. How many legitimately pretty good baseball players have there been? 1500? More? But it seems like, with the shorter history and smaller starting units, there's only 500-600 pretty good basketball players, unless you get into 50s guys even many serious fans know nothing about.
   1932. thok Posted: August 11, 2012 at 12:05 PM (#4206131)
Were you born on leap day?


Strangely, February 29 isn't even the worse 29th. I'd take their three players (Chucky Brown, John Chaney, and Vonteego Cummings) over December 29th's three players (Bud Ogden, Ron Perry, and the hilariously named Chubby Cox) without thinking about it.
   1933. smileyy Posted: August 11, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4206140)
Dave Piontek isn't a nobody! He was one of Xavier's greats in the dark ages, before the start of their rise to national prominence.
   1934. tshipman Posted: August 11, 2012 at 12:24 PM (#4206141)
My list is pretty terrible.

The best guy on it is Chuck Williams. No one else even averaged 20 mpg.
   1935. thok Posted: August 11, 2012 at 12:24 PM (#4206142)
July 23rd has a bunch of surprisingly decent players: you'd play

PG Gary Payton
SG Brandon Roy
SF Gerald Wallace
PF Antoine Carr
C Elden Campbell

and actually have a team that could get a 4th or 5th seed the playoffs or maybe higher.
   1936. vagab0nd (no longer an outl13r) Posted: August 11, 2012 at 12:31 PM (#4206147)
After doing some searching: Pippen, McAdoo & Billups is the best I've found.

Kidd, Moses, Kyrie, Rich Kelley & Gordon Hayward is pretty solid as well.
   1937. GregD Posted: August 11, 2012 at 12:41 PM (#4206154)
July 23rd has a bunch of surprisingly decent players: you'd play

PG Gary Payton
SG Brandon Roy
SF Gerald Wallace
PF Antoine Carr
C Elden Campbell

and actually have a team that could get a 4th or 5th seed the playoffs or maybe higher.
If all were at their peaks, I think that team would be a 1 or 2 seed most years.
   1938. Booey Posted: August 11, 2012 at 12:59 PM (#4206168)
If all were at their peaks, I think that team would be a 1 or 2 seed most years.


Yeah. The 90's Sonics did finish at #1 a couple times with Payton in his prime leading the team and a supporting cast that wasn't any better than this one.
   1939. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: August 11, 2012 at 01:30 PM (#4206205)
My MLB birthday team may be one of the worst ever, but Greg Anthony, Bob Dandridge and Sasha Pavlovic are all NBA players I've heard of, at least.

I think that still beats mine - Mike Dunleavy (Jr.), Jason Terry, Sherman Douglas. And Pete Myers.


Oh, I meant my basketball team was relatively good, compared to my BASEBALL birthday team which is bad.
   1940. Tripon Posted: August 11, 2012 at 01:50 PM (#4206234)
There's 12 people born on my birthday (Jan. 27th) but the best player on the list looks like its Jack Haley. Man, that is one sorry team.
   1941. kpelton Posted: August 11, 2012 at 03:52 PM (#4206351)
Happened to notice while writing the Houston chapter that Royce White is a new addition to my birthday team. He and Ivan Johnson start in the frontcourt, with Kenny Satterfield and Terry Teagle in the backcourt and the Rifleman on the wing. No, not that Rifleman--the real one, Chuck Connors.

That's a whopping 8,929 career points, of which 7,982 come from Teagle.

However, the late David Halberstam will be chronicling my team's season, so we've got that going for us, which is nice.
   1942. Booey Posted: August 11, 2012 at 04:36 PM (#4206386)
Since most the birthday teams are, um, less than championship caliber, anyone up for trying our birth year teams? Unless you're afraid to reveal your age? :)

1979:

PF - Elton Brand
SF - Tracy McGrady
C - Mehmet Okur
SG - Michael Redd
PG - Baron Davis

Bench - Lamar Odom, Rashard Lewis, Corey Maggette, Hedo Turkoglu, Metta World Peace, Larry Hughes, Ricky Davis, Brendan Haywood, Andres Nocioni, John Salmons

Meh. Lots of Clippers. Good outside shooting, though. This would be a great NBA team, but I'm pretty sure it'd lose to many other birth year teams. Only 1 future HOFer (TMac), and not even an upper level one.



(BTW, I only looked up a few years, but I'm pretty sure anyone born in 1963 will win this competition hands down).
   1943. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: August 11, 2012 at 04:52 PM (#4206400)
Tracy McGrady is a HOFer?

Regular season:
7 seasons with more than 50 starts
6 times in top 10 of points scored
3 times in top 10 of win shares
1 time in top 10 of blocks
1 time in top 10 of steals
1 all-time great season (16.1 win shares, 2002-03)

Playoffs:
44 career playoff games. In 7 playoff appearances, his teams have lost in the first round 7 times.

Career: (remember, his career started at age 18)
#60 in points scored, all-time
#99 in steals, all-time
#97 in turnovers, all-time
#79 in win shares, all-time (97.3 win shares)
#120 in minutes played, all-time

All-NBA first team twice
All-NBA second team three times
All-NBA third team twice
   1944. I am going to be Frank Posted: August 11, 2012 at 05:05 PM (#4206416)
This has to be the worst. For some reason Billy Thompson rings a vague bell but this is it for December 1st:
James Hardy
Billy Kenville
Walter Simon
Billy Thompson
   1945. thok Posted: August 11, 2012 at 05:58 PM (#4206446)
This has to be the worst.


Still not as bad as December 29th.
   1946. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: August 11, 2012 at 06:05 PM (#4206449)
Oh, I meant my basketball team was relatively good, compared to my BASEBALL birthday team which is bad.

Heh, not meaning to hijack this thread with baseball talk, but the only player to share my exact birthday (i.e. same year as well) is Brad Nelson:

2008-2009 28G 28 AB 0R 2H 0HR 0RBI 0SB 3BB .071/.161/.143 .304OPS

There isn't often I can say this about a player, but: THAT COULD HAVE BEEN ME!

I got Hanley and VMart though, which is nice. Cody Ross looks like the only other guy with a shot at 1000 hits. Koosman starting, Lidge closing. Some deadball live arms, foremost Sam Leever, and a whole bunch of meh.

My basketball team is literally a bunch of guys I have never heard of (which doesn't say a whole lot). Nobody over 10 pts a game, nobody currently active.

   1947. Booey Posted: August 11, 2012 at 07:32 PM (#4206482)
Tracy McGrady is a HOFer?


I was a little hesitant to say that, but with 7 all star appearances and 2 scoring titles, he seems like the type that might make it after a lengthy wait. The basketball HOF is hard to predict, but there are lots of worse players in there.

And hey, he's the best I've got!
   1948. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 11, 2012 at 10:22 PM (#4206579)
Again, here is my birthday team. The three players on it (which I guess means I'm the point guard or something, which is bad) have combined for 18 career starts. The best player, by quite a bit, is Nikola Vucevic.
   1949. andrewberg Posted: August 11, 2012 at 10:39 PM (#4206586)
Team 1985-

Cp3
Montae Ellis
Luol deng
Lamarcus aldridge
Dwight Howard

Bench-
Josh smith
Marc gasol
Paul milsap
Al Jefferson
Noah, darko, humphries, bargnani, all of the bigs!

   1950. Conor Posted: August 11, 2012 at 10:49 PM (#4206592)
84 (my year) not too shabby either

Deron Williams
Brandon Roy
Melo
Lebron
Bosh

Igudola, Andrew Bogut, Kendrick Perkins, JJ Reddick off the bench.


Wow the 1963 team is pretty stacked. I guess they don't really have a great PG but I'm not sure it would matter.
   1951. thok Posted: August 11, 2012 at 11:01 PM (#4206602)
Team 1977 really wishes it could trade a guard for a center or power forward

PG Stephon Marbury
SG Vince Carter
SF Paul Pierce
PF Kenyon Martin
C Nazr Mohammed

Bench
Steve Francis
Peja Stojakovic
Jason Terry
Manu Ginobili
Some meh big men types to actually have backup power forwards and centers (pick 3 of Jeff Foster, James Posey, Tim Thomas, or Kenny Thomas)
   1952. andrewberg Posted: August 11, 2012 at 11:02 PM (#4206604)
34 has Russell, Baylor, twyman, heinsohn

43 could start bing, Goodrich, bradley, Cunningham, Silas with the van arsdales in reserve
   1953. andrewberg Posted: August 11, 2012 at 11:03 PM (#4206605)
Thok, 85 will trade you gasol and big al for Manu. Deal? The spurs especially want that trade.
   1954. Booey Posted: August 11, 2012 at 11:45 PM (#4206623)
In case no one here was born in '63, I imagine this would be the team to beat:

PF - Karl Malone
SF - Charles Barkley
C - Hakeem Olajuwon
SG - Michael Jordan
PG - Terry Porter

Bench - Chris Mullin, Joe Dumars, Charles Oakley, Jeff Hornacek, Detlef Schrempf, Xavier McDaniel, AC Green, Spud Webb, Gerald Wilkins, Johnny Dawkins

I thought I remembered Porter as being a SG, but he averaged over 9 assists a year at his peak, so I guess he was a point. And he'd probably get 20 a game on this team.

So that's 6 HOFers total, including the GOAT and 3 others that TBOB had ranked in the top 20 on the HOF pyramid. 2 HOFers on the BENCH, plus several other former all stars.

71 total all star appearances. Yowza.
   1955. GregD Posted: August 11, 2012 at 11:48 PM (#4206624)
Team 1971 is basically ass:

Eddie Jones at the wing
Rodney Rogers as a forward
Allen Houston at the 2
Penny Hardaway at point
Vin Baker as a soft center

Bruce Bowen, Brent Barry, Nick Van Exel, Bo Outlaw, Calbert Cheaney, Wes Person, Isaiah Rider, Eric Montross, and Big Georghe Muresan on the bench.

Boy Hurley is the team driver

Harold Miner enters the dunk contest

Cuonzo Martin can be the coach

I guess at their peak, this team could be a 4 seed? Maybe if Penny can really set up Houston and they can survive the beatings they'll take in the post, they could be a 3?
   1956. steagles Posted: August 12, 2012 at 12:13 AM (#4206633)
1988 looks pretty beastly:
PG: derrick rose -- russell westbrook
SG: eric gordon -- steph curry
SF: kevin durant -- danillo gallinari
PF: kevin love -- ryan anderson
C: javale mcgee -- deandre jordan
reserve:
jeff teague
chase budinger
nicholas batum
thaddeus young
brook lopez
evan turner
spencer hawes
landry fields


   1957. PJ Martinez Posted: August 12, 2012 at 10:42 AM (#4206706)
Those last couple calls against Marc Gasol (especially the one on Durant's shot) have been kind of crappy. Bummer to see him in foul trouble in a close game.
   1958. PJ Martinez Posted: August 12, 2012 at 10:46 AM (#4206709)
And that call on Navarro was terrible, and the ref was right there.
   1959. PJ Martinez Posted: August 12, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4206721)
Terrible shot by Kobe there, one possession after he hit a big three.

Pau Gasol has 13 points this quarter; the US has 14.
   1960. hokieneer Posted: August 12, 2012 at 11:34 AM (#4206724)
The refs are trying to ruin what should be a classic gold medal game.
   1961. PJ Martinez Posted: August 12, 2012 at 11:43 AM (#4206730)
Well, I think it's gotten a little better since the 2nd quarter, which was awful. But yeah, in general they've called it much too close.
   1962. hokieneer Posted: August 12, 2012 at 12:16 PM (#4206746)
Yeah it did get better as the game went on.

On a side: One thing I cannot stand is the blatant intentional foul after a turnover. I know the NBA has the clear-path rule, but I don't watch enough international ball to know if that rule is there. Though on a lot of those plays, the clear path rule wouldn't have been invoked. Spain was just throwing shoulders, knees, and arms immediately into Paul on any turnover or long rebound. Really screws up the flow of the game.
   1963. Manny Coon Posted: August 12, 2012 at 12:33 PM (#4206755)
The 1978 birth year team is good, although PG is a little weak, Kings Bibby was pretty good though.

Jermaine O'Neal/Jamaal Magloire
Dirk Nowitzki/Chris Anderson
Shawn Marion/Shane Battier/Stephen Jackson
Kobe/Richard Hamilton
Mike Bibby/Jamaal Tinsley

Pretty good balance of offense and defense. You could also do it with Marion as the backup PF and Battier starting at SF.
   1964. rr Posted: August 12, 2012 at 01:05 PM (#4206772)
Good Gold Medal game. Love played well; so did Pau, which I am always glad to see. Kobe was 5/10 and played OK although he played too many minutes to suit the ESPN guys, a few of whom called for him to be benched. Drew another line under James', Paul's and Durant's current status within the league. Too bad Rubio wasn't there. Calderon was 0/1 in 17 minutes, so Rubio might have made a difference today.
   1965. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 12, 2012 at 03:51 PM (#4206840)
The end of that Russia-Argentina was a great. A grinding last few minutes, but that Russian guard Alexi Schved was just great. AK47 was invisible in the game, but Russia managed a win anyways.
   1966. Spivey Posted: August 12, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4206880)
Spain played really well. None of the big-time US players had a clunker of a game, and Spain still kept it close. That 3 pointer LeBron hit was huge, and then Paul put an incredible cap on the game with a ridiculous drive on Gasol to put the United States up 11 with 45 seconds left.
   1967. Squash Posted: August 12, 2012 at 07:15 PM (#4206946)
Huh, my birthday team is actually all right, though a little (lot) soft on D. We could seriously Hack-A-Shaq opposing centers though. You could also slide Coleman to C, move Chambers to PF, start Jefferson and turn into the world's great defensive sinkhole but score a lot of points.

PG - Jimmy Rayl
SG - Ronnie Price
SF - Tom Chambers
PF - Derrick Coleman
C - Donald Sidle/Loren Woods/Jeremy Tyler
6th man - Richard Jefferson
   1968. mjs Posted: August 12, 2012 at 07:41 PM (#4206948)
Primarily a lurker, but had to come in to post my birthday team. Also, loving this thread.

PG - Ed Fleming or the immortal Angelo Musi
SG - Jon Barry
SF - Tracy Murray
PF - Kenny Thomas
C - Nate Thurmond
6th man - Nenad Krstic

Not exactly the Dream Team

   1969. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: August 12, 2012 at 08:58 PM (#4206969)
Great win, in a ragged yet entertaining street fight. Physical play, such as the overlooked turning point when LBJ raked Gasol across the face. (Pau got got good on that one. Bleeding, watery eyes...) Shitty refs. A coaching brainfart. There was lots of game to this game, so as entertainment... thumbs up.
   1970. steagles Posted: August 13, 2012 at 02:03 AM (#4207048)

having let thursday's trade sink in for a few days, i think i'm willing to say that the acquisitions of bynum and richardson add about 10 wins to my expectation for the sixers this coming season. that's not especially impressive considering the degree to which i was pessimistic about the coming season, due to the departures of lou williams and elton brand. adding 10 wins basically only takes my projection from 30-35 wins to 40-45.


i would absolutely love to say that this trade makes the sixers clear favorites to reach the eastern conference finals, but i just can't. that not to say that i think they're outrageously unlikely to get there, but rather that i just do not have enough confidence in jrue holiday and evan turner to expect that they will be good enough to be the primary ballhandlers on an elite team.


i came into last year expecting big breakouts from both holiday and turner, and while i still think such breakouts are possible, the lack of progress last season has me kind of bearish on their capability of being impact players from the start of this season.

i understand why they were held back, i understand that after the team's hot start last year, doug collins began pushing for better performance (which i think was, ironically, the main reason the team struggled so much in the 2nd half last year*1), and he started to really tighten the reigns on holiday and, especially, turner, while relying too heavily on lou williams*2 and andre iguodala to carry the offense.

anyway, looking forward, with bynum and turner, the sixers now have two of the best rebounders at their respective positions.

on defense, losing iguodala hurts, and losing brand hurts, but they haven't replaced those guys with invalids. kwame brown is a good defender. lavoy allen is a good defender. dorell wright is a good defender. evan turner is a good defender. and by adding bynum, they might actually have someone in the paint who can block a shot from the weakside.

and in addition, jrue holiday is still one of the absolute best on ball defenders in the NBA.

unless multiple players underachieve significantly, i can't imagine the sixers defense will drop out of the top 10 in D-rating.

and on offense, bynum really is the best center in the eastern conference right now, and he is arguably the most dominant offensive center in the world. his addition probably won't make this team a contender this year, but he is definitely good enough to be the best player on a championship caliber team.

and now, in addition to bynum, the sixers have jrue holiday (.377% 3P% over the last 3 years), nick young (.376), jason richardson (.388), and dorrell wright (.373) to rain down open 3s if bynum actually proves capable of passing out of double teams (i could be wrong, but i believe he turned the ball over 1 out of every 4 times he was double teamed this past season, so this is not exactly a given).


there should be a good offense here. admittedly, i am concerned about the insufficient replacements for iguodala and williams in terms of their ability to handle the ball, but between bynum's presence in the paint, the ability for the sixers wings to make 3s, and thaddeus young's and nick young's ability to come off the bench and get buckets, i think the potential is there for this to be a top 10 offense. and i don't mean that to read as "if everyone on the sixers roster plays to their absolute peak, this will be a top 10 offense", i mean that assuming reasonable years from the majority of players on the sixers roster, this will be a top 10 offense.


*1, when i say that, what i mean is that i think doug collins' insistence on tightening the team's rotation, by cutting turner's minutes and by scratching nik vucevic and lavoy allen for multiple games, really negatively impacted the team, in terms of both current performance and future development.

*2, also ironically, i thought lou williams was outstanding last year, and while i do think that doug collins relied too heavily on him to create offense, i also think that his departure this offseason will really hurt the production of the team's second unit.



overall, well, this trade was almost exactly what i've wanted for the last 2+ years. igoudala for bynum--that really is exactly what i've wanted done. and now it is. and now, it feels really great.

now, i'm just crossing my fingers his lower leg isn't amputated due to complications from offseason surgery.
   1971. JJ1986 Posted: August 13, 2012 at 11:08 AM (#4207187)
86 team is good, but lacks a real MVP level player:

1 - Rondo
2 - Lou Williams
3 - Rudy Gay
4 - Al Horford
5 - Roy Hibbert

Bench - Kyle Lowry, George Hill, Goran Dragic, Rodney Stuckey, Marvin Williams, Big Baby Davis, Omer Asik.

I thought LMA would show up, but I guess he was held back a year at some point in his life.
   1972. tshipman Posted: August 13, 2012 at 12:23 PM (#4207238)
overall, well, this trade was almost exactly what i've wanted for the last 2+ years. igoudala for bynum--that really is exactly what i've wanted done. and now it is. and now, it feels really great.


This should be pointed out--as good as the deal was for the Lakers (and maybe the Nuggets), it was also quite good for the Sixers. Really, the only team to lose here was the Magic. That's pretty extraordinary.

his addition probably won't make this team a contender this year, but he is definitely good enough to be the best player on a championship caliber team.


I think you have to squint pretty hard to get Bynum there. Bynum is much more Patrick Ewing than Hakeem Olajuwon, even in the best case scenario for him. I have been a Bynum fan for a long time, so I can't turn on the guy (although his douchiness is making it easier), but he has a few faults that he would need to improve on to take the next step. He is a poor passer out of doubles. He struggles guarding the PnR. He plays too deliberately at times in the post.

It's possible that he improves on those things, but I think the next year will be interesting for him. He's never had to face so many doubles as he will playing alongside Kwame or Lavoy Allen. Elton Brand would have been a great teammate for him, but that isn't going to happen now.
   1973. Booey Posted: August 13, 2012 at 02:40 PM (#4207343)
I think you have to squint pretty hard to get Bynum there. Bynum is much more Patrick Ewing than Hakeem Olajuwon, even in the best case scenario for him.


I'd imagine Sixers fans would be plenty happy if Bynum turned into Ewing. Ewing played D, and he was the best player on a contender that absolutely could have won the title in '93 or '94 with a little luck.
   1974. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 13, 2012 at 03:05 PM (#4207365)
john mitchell ?@JmitchInquirer

Source: Bynum to undergo precautionary non-invasive knee procedure early in Sept. in Germany.


Maybe he's just seeing Kobe's guy?
   1975. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 13, 2012 at 03:35 PM (#4207381)
Moving from the Wastern powerhouse 76ers to the Western Wolves, my boycott of Olympics BBall cost me one thing - the chance to view Shved(sp?) and AK47. What do people think they will be able to bring to the Wolves? Do people still think struggle for 8th seed (I think that was the consensus before), or are they higher or lower?

In my dreams Rubio comes back great, AK is interested and has a resurgence, and everyone else does there thing and they are a 5 or 6 seed. I don't see higher than that without other teams have plane crashes or something.
   1976. JuanGone..except1game Posted: August 13, 2012 at 03:40 PM (#4207386)
Maybe he's just seeing Kobe's guy?


It was reported earlier that he planned to do the "Kobe Germany treatment". Kobe should have charged broker commission for the amount of business he's brought in for this doctor.

In my dreams Rubio comes back great, AK is interested and has a resurgence, and everyone else does there thing and they are a 5 or 6 seed. I don't see higher than that without other teams have plane crashes or something.


I think that you probably shouldn't be too optimistic about AK47. He looked pretty slow and un-athletic out there. I think that the TWolves are going to regret that signing.
   1977. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: August 13, 2012 at 03:51 PM (#4207397)
Can anyone explain why Bill Simmons thinks the concept of "Germany" is so hilarious? In his last 794 basketball podcasts he always finds a way to say "Hey, that guy is injury-prone/aging. He should go to Germany like Kobe, right?" and expects the guest to laugh uproariously. Why is "Germany" different from any other innovative sports-medicine procedure?
   1978. JJ1986 Posted: August 13, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4207404)
Simmons probably thinks that since the Lakers didn't win the championship last year, Kobe's treatment was a failure. He thus thinks it's silly for others to be doing the same thing.
   1979. jmurph Posted: August 13, 2012 at 03:57 PM (#4207407)
I think the implication is that it's some kind of super sketchy treatment that is outside the bounds of what is legal in the US. It's really just because Kobe and ARod famously did it, I would guess.
   1980. JuanGone..except1game Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:04 PM (#4207416)
Can anyone explain why Bill Simmons thinks the concept of "Germany" is so hilarious?


Anything to do with the Lakers and especially Kobe is ripe for Simmons's personal brand of mockery. The man once wrote a column crushing Kobe the day after he won the NBA championship. Lakers fans are mostly used to his catty Lakers hate.
   1981. Manny Coon Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:35 PM (#4207451)
I think that you probably shouldn't be too optimistic about AK47. He looked pretty slow and un-athletic out there. I think that the TWolves are going to regret that signing.


No matter how he looked he was one of the most productive players in the tournament and his team had a good result. With CSKA last year he was basically the best player in Europe, he should be fine.

Shved should be better than the terrible wings they had last year, but he's going to be competing with Budinger, Roy, Kirilenko and to a lesser extent Barea and Ridnour for playing time. The Wolves are much better at SG/SF than last year. Assuming Rubio is healthy they have good chance at the 6th or 7th seed, if they were in the east, they could probably finish higher, the top of the west looks tough this year.
   1982. rr Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:38 PM (#4207454)
It's really just because Kobe and ARod famously did it, I would guess
.

Correct. If Kobe had gone to Morocco or Lithuania, Simmons would say the same kinds of things using that country as the joke. As to Bynum, yes, he is getting the same procedure done that Bryant had.

tshipman's hit on Bynum is pretty accurate; those issues, plus a lack of quickness getting both off and up and down the floor, are, along with the health and attitude concerns, Bynum's negatives.

Those things conceded, it was a sound move by Philadelphia. Bynum is arguably the second-best center in the NBA and is inarguably one of the top 4 or 5. The best guy is in the other conference and coming off back surgery. Bynum lacks the mobility to be a Chandler/Howard/Garnett level team defender, but he is long and gigantic, and protects the rim well. He has soft hands and a pretty good touch around the rim; he commands a lot of attention on D and is a passable FT shooter (.687 career).

I also like the 76ers as a situation for him. He is not expected to save an awful team, nor is he coming in as the last piece on a veteran team going on an all-out title run. The 76ers have a point guard and a wing player to work with him who are both young and pretty good, and the core of the team is more or less on his timeline. By all accounts, Bynum liked LA (especially the parking) but he grew up in the East, so transplanting to Philly probably does not bum him out. He is coming to a team that wants him, rather than being on a team that wanted to use him to get Dwight Howard. Doug Collins has his faults, but by most accounts, Bynum never respected Mike Brown and Collins definitely has more gravitas/cache than Brown does. So, it seems to me that the 76ers are set up well for Bynum to succeed.
   1983. AROM, Instagram Gangsta Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:39 PM (#4207455)
I'd imagine Sixers fans would be plenty happy if Bynum turned into Ewing. Ewing played D, and he was the best player on a contender that absolutely could have won the title in '93 or '94 with a little luck.


If I rank the top 2 centers of today and the top 2 from 1988, I know Olajuwon is #1 and Bynum is #4. I'm not sure between Howard and Ewing. Howard's the better rebounder. Ewing was the better scorer, had more of a post game and was not a liability at the free throw line. Ewing blocked a lot more shots - 5 straight years with more blocks than Howard's career high. Ewing blocked 327 one year, Howard's best was 231. Neither one passed the ball much.

A lot of the block difference is attributable to the game they are playing, centers don't normally block shots out at the 3 point line. So I'm not going to say Ewing was more of a defensive force than Howard, but he might have been, or at least equal. Ewing was an all-defense second teamer a few times, but never first team. Howard of course has that beat. But I don't think he would if his rivals included Olajuwon, Mark Eaton, and later David Robinson.

If Bynum = Ewing, then the 76ers are in for a very happy season, and hopefully more after an extension.
   1984. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:45 PM (#4207457)
I think that you probably shouldn't be too optimistic about AK47. He looked pretty slow and un-athletic out there.

I didn't see much of Russia, but that's in conflict with my observations.

As for Shved, I like the signing, but he's likely to be an inefficient (and erratic) shooter and not a great defender - he's ideally reserve material for now.
   1985. steagles Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4207460)
Moving from the Wastern powerhouse 76ers to the Western Wolves, my boycott of Olympics BBall cost me one thing - the chance to view Shved(sp?) and AK47. What do people think they will be able to bring to the Wolves? Do people still think struggle for 8th seed (I think that was the consensus before), or are they higher or lower?
shved looked really good, but it's not like he was going up against all-NBA defenders, or even average NBA defenders.
Can anyone explain why Bill Simmons thinks the concept of "Germany" is so hilarious? In his last 794 basketball podcasts he always finds a way to say "Hey, that guy is injury-prone/aging. He should go to Germany like Kobe, right?" and expects the guest to laugh uproariously. Why is "Germany" different from any other innovative sports-medicine procedure?
in fairness, these people are going to germany because the treatment isn't approved for use in the united states.

i think that's actually more of an indictment of us than it is a joke on them, but then again, at least our FDA never approved thalidomide to treat headaches in pregnant mothers (though, due to the lack of government oversight in the early 1960s, halidomide did actually enter the american marketplace as samples, resulting in hundreds to thousands of birth defects.
   1986. smileyy Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4207462)
I think the implication is that it's some kind of super sketchy treatment that is outside the bounds of what is legal in the US.


More the latter than the former. I don't think it would be legal in the US, but I'd call it "of dubious efficacy" rather than "super sketchy".
   1987. rr Posted: August 13, 2012 at 04:51 PM (#4207467)
As to Minnesota, as we discussed earlier, everything hinges on Roy and Rubio. Love is among the Top 15-20 guys in the league and is arguably even higher than that; Adelman is a good coach and Minnesota has several guys who will be competent performers. So, whether they can get as high as 5th or are more like 7th-10th depends on Roy and Rubio. As Mouse notes and as we said before, it is hard to picture them finishing ahead of OKC, LAL, SA or LAC, barring stuff like Howard's missing 60 games with his back and Paul's knee blowing out.

Aside: I think Minnesota will be the whitest NBA team that I can recall in recent years:

Love
Budinger
Kirilenko
Shved
Hummel
Pekovic
Stiemsma
Barea
Ridnour
Rubio
   1988. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: August 13, 2012 at 05:06 PM (#4207482)
Hummel's going overseas, but yeah.
   1989. tshipman Posted: August 13, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4207496)
If I rank the top 2 centers of today and the top 2 from 1988, I know Olajuwon is #1 and Bynum is #4. I'm not sure between Howard and Ewing. Howard's the better rebounder. Ewing was the better scorer, had more of a post game and was not a liability at the free throw line. Ewing blocked a lot more shots - 5 straight years with more blocks than Howard's career high. Ewing blocked 327 one year, Howard's best was 231. Neither one passed the ball much.


I think the game has changed too much for these kinds of comparisons. I look at footage of Ewing's game and I just think he looks so very, very slow. In addition, on the blocks, you have to control for the league environment. Everyone blocked more shots in 1988. The average team in 1988 had 442 blocked shots. In 2010-2011, that was down to 399.


If Bynum = Ewing, then the 76ers are in for a very happy season, and hopefully more after an extension.


My point was much more that Ewing was a more likely BCS for Bynum than someone who could carry a team to a championship almost by himself.
   1990. andrewberg Posted: August 13, 2012 at 05:27 PM (#4207499)
I'm just warning you guys right now, I could go full Steagles on the Wolves this year. I realized this when I read "Love is among the Top 15-20 guys in the league" and unconsciously scoffed.
   1991. rr Posted: August 13, 2012 at 05:40 PM (#4207513)
Here is what I actually said:

15-20 guys in the league and is arguably even higher than that;


So, if you want to scoff, at least quote the whole thing. Like I have said, I am not a fan of ordinal lists of players; I think tiers are far more informative. Whether a guy thinks Love is 7th or 14th or 11th on some list in his head or on his website is irrelevant to me.
   1992. steagles Posted: August 13, 2012 at 05:48 PM (#4207520)
I'm just warning you guys right now, I could go full Steagles on the Wolves this year. I realized this when I read "Love is among the Top 15-20 guys in the league" and unconsciously scoffed.
i'd strongly recommend it.

sports are so much more fun when you can make strangers hate your team solely because of your sickening enthusiasm for them.


If Bynum = Ewing, then the 76ers are in for a very happy season, and hopefully more after an extension.
i don't if it's fair to compare these two at this point. bynum just his 7th year in NBA as a 24 year old, where he averaged 18 and 12 on 56% shooting and put up a .183 WS/48. in ewing's 7th NBA season, he was 29 years old, and averaged 24 and 11, on 52% shooting from the floor and a .198 WS/48. however, in ewing's age 24 season, he averaged 21 and 9 while shooting 50% from the floor and putting up a .075 WS/48 (though, i'm not entirely sure how it's possible for that to be so low).

considering their vastly different backgrounds leading up to their age 25 seasons, i'm not sure it's possible to make an accurate comparison between the two, but if you just look at their age 24 seasons, i don't think it's entirely unfair to say bynum has that kind of ability.


as a 25 year old, patrick ewing scored 20 PPG, grabbed 8 RPG, had an assist, a steal, and 3 blocks, plus 3 turnovers, on 55/00/71 FG/3P/FT shooting.

that looks pretty similar to what i'm expecting from bynum. well, i'd probably commit seppuku if he only pulled down 8 rebounds per game, but otherwise, that's essentially what bynum should do, right?
   1993. kpelton Posted: August 13, 2012 at 06:30 PM (#4207547)
Writing the Timberwolves chapter today. Andrew's going to enjoy the book.
   1994. tshipman Posted: August 13, 2012 at 06:42 PM (#4207558)
Writing the Timberwolves chapter today. Andrew's going to enjoy the book.


Really, KP? I'm surprised you're high on the Wolves. I don't want to ask you to cannibalize your own material, but mind if I ask for the Cliffs' Notes of why you like them this year?

(I personally think of them as in the muddle for 7th through 10th in the West.)
   1995. kpelton Posted: August 13, 2012 at 06:47 PM (#4207564)
In short, I think people are forgetting they were in that muddle last year when healthy, and anybody would be a massive upgrade on the slop that occupied the wings last season. And AK, possibly Shved and maybe even Roy if healthy are better than anybody.
   1996. andrewberg Posted: August 13, 2012 at 06:57 PM (#4207572)
Robin- you're right. What you wrote was completely reasonable and even allows for the idea that he's top 10 or whatever. I was just relaying that I had an emotional response to it (like Steagles mentioned) and it was pretty fun.

Brradford Doolittle did a review of the Wolves offseason that said some of the same things Kevin just said. Bud will help too.
   1997. Booey Posted: August 13, 2012 at 07:01 PM (#4207575)
sports are so much more fun when you can make strangers hate your team solely because of your sickening enthusiasm for them.


Love it. And I agree completely. Since the MSM seems to think the NBA only consists of the 4-5 highest profile teams, I feel it's the right - no, RESPONSIBILITY - for fans of all the other teams to keep their boys relevant by name dropping them at every appropriate opportunity (and even some inappropriate ones)! :)

So go Jazz!
   1998. rr Posted: August 13, 2012 at 07:07 PM (#4207580)
In short, I think people are forgetting they were in that muddle last year when healthy,


Sure, but "when healthy" includes Rubio. Kirilenko, Budinger, and Shved will help even if Rubio and Roy don't do much, but I think that scenario puts Minnesota 7th or 8th. I see it like this as of now:

OKC
LAL
SA
LAC
DEN
MEM

I suppose you could make a case that Minnesota is better than Memphis or Denver, but I would be skeptical of that until we see Roy and Rubio on the floor doing the job and looking healthy. Utah and Dallas will probably be pretty decent as well.
   1999. steagles Posted: August 13, 2012 at 08:55 PM (#4207622)
I see it like this as of now:

OKC
LAL
SA
LAC
DEN
MEM
i don't know that memphis is going to be that good. i don't necessarily think they've peaked, but their entire core is locked up with big money extensions, and i can't help but think there'll be a loss of tension now that everyone is taken care of.

i also don't think denver is going to be all that great, either. i'm not convinced that iguodala is a great fit for them at the 2, and their corps of big men is pretty underwhelming. faried is pretty solid, but i don't think him and javale mcgee are very complimentary in terms of strengths and weaknesses. and beyond those two, they have kosta koufos, timofey mozgov, evan fournier, and anthony randolph. that doesn't scream "contender" to me, and it seems like a pretty significant downgrade from nene, chris anderson, and al harrington.

also, the clippers are led by chris paul, blake griffin, and grant hill, and all 3 have pretty significant health concerns coming into the season.

and the spurs are still very old, and they really are going to collapse one of these years.


i don't think it's really outrageous to think it's possible for the wolves to be better than any of those teams. i'd probably have it at 6:1 that the wolves finish ahead of san antonio or los angeles, and 3:1 that they finish ahead of denver or memphis.

pekovic could be really, really good, and rubio (defense and playmaking) and love (scoring and rebounding) each have two skills that are elite.

there really is a lot to like there.
   2000. rr Posted: August 13, 2012 at 09:20 PM (#4207632)
Flip



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