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Monday, July 02, 2012

OT: NBA basketball July Thread 2012

I estimate that only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what the site is really about: Jim Furtado trolling his own site when he’s bored.

Tripon Posted: July 02, 2012 at 04:21 PM | 2487 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball

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   2201. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: August 23, 2012 at 03:47 PM (#4216160)
Nah, there are a number of cities that could reasonably handle an NBA franchise. Oklahoma City is doing fine, for example. (Not to mention Seattle, if they got an arena.)

Tidewater's tv market would be smaller than all but three other NBA markets - OKC, Memphis and New Orleans. How marketable that team would be in Richmond, or the western part of the state, and so on - is questionable (whereas OKC will sell in Tulsa, etc...)
   2202. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 23, 2012 at 03:50 PM (#4216163)

Wouldn't St. Louis be even better?


St. Louis is already pretty rabid over a winter sports team, I don't know if they would support a second (or if they could - they'd be the second smallest metro with four major sports with only Denver being smaller). I've never seen much enthusiasm in St. Louis (or Baltimore for that matter) in landing a team. Seems like the cities that have made the most waves about landing a team are Seattle, KC, Vegas, Anaheim, and San Jose. But I guess VA Beach kinda came out of nowhere.
   2203. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: August 23, 2012 at 04:09 PM (#4216190)
Besides all the reasons why Virginia Beach doesn't make sense that have already been posted, just for hypotheticals, how would the conferences be re-aligned? It would be a good time to move the Grizzlies to the East, too.

The 2 furthest West teams left in the East appear to be Chicago and Milwaukee. I could see the Bucks being forced out West, but it might be harder to make the Bulls.
   2204. smileyy Posted: August 23, 2012 at 05:28 PM (#4216255)
I know Milwaukee switching from the AL to the NL isn't the same thing, but I'm amused by the notion of Milwaukee being a city that switches back and forth to keep regional balances.

I agree with you, I can't imagine the Bulls in the Western Conference. It also reminds me of the days that The Cubs were in the NL East, and the Cincinnati Reds were in the NL West.
   2205. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 23, 2012 at 05:56 PM (#4216268)
So could they bring back the Squires name or does someone own the rights to that?
   2206. King Mekong Posted: August 23, 2012 at 07:07 PM (#4216302)
Austin (49th largest TV market, 13th largest city, 33PSA) will never get an NBA team sadly.
   2207. TerpNats Posted: August 23, 2012 at 07:43 PM (#4216327)
Wouldn't Baltimore make more sense than VA?
Not unless there are concrete plans (pardon the pun) to build an arena (supposedly it would be constructed in the area of the Ravens' and Orioles' stadia). The current facility, formerly known as the Baltimore Civic Center, is 50 years old, was outmoded the day it opened (city officials insisted a stage be built for school commencements and such, which cut down on capacity and probably prevented Baltimore from getting an NHL team in the league's initial expansion of 1967). Baltimore would have a better arena had it bought the Capital Centre before it was razed and lugged the sections up I-95 to be reconstructed in town; that's how bad the Civic Center is (comparable to what RFK is now at the other end of the B-W Parkway). Anyway, does anyone know the status of a new Baltimore arena?
   2208. TerpNats Posted: August 23, 2012 at 07:45 PM (#4216330)
I can't imagine the Bulls in the Western Conference.
I believe they were in the NBA's Western Division/Conference for at least the first decade of the team's existence.
   2209. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: August 23, 2012 at 09:21 PM (#4216394)
Austin already has a pro team. (Plus, their d-league entry...)
   2210. robinred Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:38 AM (#4216460)
The Bulls were in fact in the West early on in their history; they actually played the Lakers in the 1972 playoffs.


The Hampton Roads Business Journal in Norfolk, Va., cited unnamed sources as saying Kings ownership and officials from Comcast and concert promoter Live Nation are supposed to descend on Virginia Beach on Tuesday to discuss a new stadium and relocation of the NBA franchise.

"We haven't talked to Virginia Beach," Joe Maloof told CBS13 in Sacramento.


http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8296570/sacramento-kings-deny-report-possible-move-virginia
   2211. robinred Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:41 AM (#4216462)
"Prokhorov told me back in December that he plans on attending a quarter of the regular-season games and 'all the playoff ones.' He also made sure that I heard him call Dolan 'that little man,'" writes the article's author, Will Leitch.

"The Nets frequently note that a minimum of 2,000 seats a game will cost $15 or less, at least for the first season (in the Barclays Center). Still, it's clear that the Nets did not move to Brooklyn to be Pepsi to Jim Dolan's Coke: They want to be Veuve Clicquot."


http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/8287836/brooklyn-nets-owner-mikhail-prokhorov-calls-new-york-knicks-owner-james-dolan-little-man
   2212. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: August 24, 2012 at 02:39 AM (#4216486)
just a quick update to the feud between evan turner and mark titus from a fan on another board:
Scored some free Diamond Club tickets tonight. Evan Turner was in front of me. He was with the Super Fan guy and the guy's grandkids. Guessing since Super Fan drops serious bank on the Sixers, his kids get to chill with Evan Turner for the night. ET was super nice to everyone. Said Titus is a ##### for calling him out in his book. Said Iggy is the coolest guy in the world. Said the Sixers are going to be naaaaasty. Very nice guy.
   2213. robinred Posted: August 24, 2012 at 02:45 AM (#4216489)
Zach Lowe on the Mavs, Cuban, and team-building in the salary cap era:

Look at all of the creative spending that Boston has done during the offseason to remain on the fringes of the title picture: the Terry signing, the Courtney Lee sign-and-trade, the splurging on Jeff Green, etc. None of it is really possible if the Celtics don’t strike gold with Rajon Rondo — the transitional centerpiece — late in the draft (with a huge assist from the Suns). The Spurs, of course, nailed two such draft picks to keep the Tim Duncan era afloat: Tony Parker late in the first round, and Manu Ginobili toward the end of the second round, the latter of which may constitute the best bang-for-the-buck pick in NBA history. The Lakers had one lottery pick in the Kobe Bryant era, and they nailed it by selecting Andrew Bynum at No. 10. Look what that hath wrought today.

This is where Dallas has failed, through no real fault of its own. When you’re picking in the 20s, the high-end expectation is to find role players. You pray you get a game-changer in there somewhere. The Mavericks appeared to have found two such second/third banana types in the late 20s in Roddy Beaubois and Josh Howard, but neither lived up to the billing of a transitional franchise stabilizer. (The Mavs eventually flipped Howard’s expiring deal to the Wizards for DeShawn Stevenson, Brendan Haywood and Caron Butler, all of whom played roles in the team’s title run).


http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2012/08/22/mark-cuban-dallas-mavericks/?sct=nba_bf2_a3
   2214. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: August 24, 2012 at 09:01 AM (#4216562)
That's a little unfair. Josh Howard was a 29th overall pick who made an All-Star team and posted a PER of 17.8 over his first 6 seasons, with plus defense and 36.6 WS (.137 WS/48). That's more than the high end expectation of finding a role player. No - not as good as Rondo/Ginobili, but that's an unfair standard.

That said, Dallas picks (so, not including guys dealt for right after the draft / including guys sent out right after ... a hugely important distinction) since Howard ('03 draft) have combined for zero point zero bb-ref Win Shares.
Their figures: Fazekas 0.8, J.Hamilton 0.3, Mullens -0.1, Alabi 0.0, Spanoulis -0.1, Ager -0.9; has not played: Ngombo, Nivins, S.Foster, Seibutis, Rakovic, Pinnock, Yuyang.
Last "Dallas draftee" to accrue a Win Share over their career, besides Howard, was Etan Thomas (12th overall, 14.9, '00 draft).
   2215. robinred Posted: August 24, 2012 at 09:21 AM (#4216575)
This is where Dallas has failed, through no real fault of its own.


Maybe Lowe should not have used the word "failed", but the piece as a whole was defending Cuban and Dallas. Cuban recently said some stuff hedging about wanting Deron Williams and then some other stuff about how he didn't see himself retiring Jason Kidd's jersey. That's OK, but Cuban's egotistical chattiness with media guys comes off a little differently when the enemy got Howard and Nash and Cuban got Kaman and Scola, and Cuban has been taking a little flack. Lowe was pointing out how hard it is to get guys like Ginobili, Rondo, etc. after the first few picks, among other things.

And, I mostly agree. I am snarky about Cuban, had reservations about the decision to let Chandler walk, but he is a very smart guy and has been a great owner. Things just didn't break Dallas' way this summer.

Finally, of course, the Howard saga is not over.
   2216. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: August 24, 2012 at 09:32 AM (#4216585)
I bet the Howard saga is almost over.
   2217. robinred Posted: August 24, 2012 at 09:43 AM (#4216597)
I bet the Howard saga is almost over.


People are assuming that, ("the Lakers always get what they want")and the fact that he dropped 20M on a Newport Beach mansion may indicate as much. But we'll see. Mike Brown isn't Gregg Popovich, Howard and Bryant may not hit it off what with Bryant's being evil and all, and Chris Paul has not extended with the Clippers. I really didn't think the Lakers would actually get Howard, so I may be wrong, but I am sticking to my idea that Howard and Paul want to hit FA together as a James/Wade style mini-conglomerate.

In the meantime, though, I already have tix to a couple of Lakers games and am looking forward to the season in a big way.
   2218. Booey Posted: August 24, 2012 at 10:57 AM (#4216655)
I may be wrong, but I am sticking to my idea that Howard and Paul want to hit FA together as a James/Wade style mini-conglomerate.

Isn't it possible that they do sign together - WITH the Lakers? Nash is still great and all, but he's also like 60 years old. He was a quick fix rather than a long term solution to the Lakers PG problems. I was mostly joking when I suggested earlier that Gasol could be used as the centerpiece of a reboot of the Paul to the Lakers trade, but wouldn't it make sense for real? A core of Howard/Paul could keep the Lakers in title contention even after Kobe retires.
   2219. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: August 24, 2012 at 11:10 AM (#4216671)
For me, it's simply: Dwight's not going to want to leave LA, as opposed to LA will get what they want (they've already gotten it).
As for Paul, the Clips can't trade him across town...
   2220. robinred Posted: August 24, 2012 at 11:21 AM (#4216681)
Isn't it possible that they do sign together - WITH the Lakers?


Seems very unlikely; I can't see Sterling doing that. Also, the fact that the Lakers have actually landed Howard without giving up Gasol makes LeVeto look even better to a lot of people who were already liking it.

(they've already gotten it).


This will be true if Howard signs an extension. Right now, it is half-true. And sure, Howard may decide he loves living the LakerStar life in LA. Or he may not like Brown and/or Kobe and look at the fact that all the other stars on the team are near the end of the line and look at other options. I would bet on the former, like most people would, but no one knows.

The Lakers will sell Howard the idea that they can make one, maybe two, real runs at it with him and the old-but-still-good guys, and then if they have him and cap space in 14/15, the reload will be quick.



   2221. andrewberg Posted: August 24, 2012 at 11:36 AM (#4216697)
That's more than the high end expectation of finding a role player. No - not as good as Rondo/Ginobili, but that's an unfair standard.


To echo what robin was saying, I think that's kind of the point. Cuban does not want to compare himself to average teams, he wants to compare himself to the elite- those teams have won 2 of the last 6 titles, and he won another. Howard has been well above average for a late first round pick, but above-average is not a champion.
   2222. robinred Posted: August 24, 2012 at 11:49 AM (#4216718)
Cuban does not want to compare himself to average teams, he wants to compare himself to the elite- those teams have won 2 of the last 6 titles, and he won another.


Right, and Lowe was also saying that it is really tough to pull off those types of picks, and implying that there is likely some good fortune involved along with astuteness. As Lowe pointed out, Ginobili, given how good he has been and where he was chosen, is arguably the greatest draft pick ever. Bynum is a different sort of case, but plenty of people, including Hollinger and many Lakerfans/media guys, were down on the pick when it was made and it is the only lottery pick the Lakers have had in the last 15 years. Not missing on it was huge.

The Mavs have done a great job for a long time, and Lowe's position is that the fact that they weren't able to pull off a pick like that to get a wingman for Nowitzki that they could have cost-controlled for awhile isn't necessarily a negative reflection on the org. Rondo, Bynum, Parker, and Ginobili were key pieces on the other recent title teams anchored by age 30+ stars.
   2223. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:03 PM (#4216817)
It honestly never occurred to me Howard would not resign with LAL until it was mentioned above. Says more about me than the situation I suppose.
   2224. Booey Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4216832)
Seems very unlikely; I can't see Sterling doing that


He'd rather lose him for nothing?

Then again, this is Donald Sterling we're talking about, so yeah, probably. The success and long term future of his team has never seemed to be anything more than a minor concern to him, IMO.
   2225. robinred Posted: August 24, 2012 at 02:26 PM (#4216929)
He'd rather lose him for nothing?


I think it would need to be another massive, three or four-way deal, with Gasol going somewhere, the Clippers getting young guys, etc. The Lakers have traded away pretty much all the picks they can, though, and Paul can't sign with the Lakers on his own. I see it as quite unlikely for a number of reasons, but then, one could say the same of the Lakers landing both Howard and Nash this off-season.
   2226. robinred Posted: August 24, 2012 at 02:37 PM (#4216940)
Says more about me than the situation I suppose.


Yes and no. I think most people figure that he will re-sign, based on the Lakers' history. But this situation is different than Wilt's, Kareem's or Shaq's, for a lot of reasons.
   2227. kpelton Posted: August 24, 2012 at 03:46 PM (#4216986)
Paul to the Lakers is a moot point. Starting next summer teams cannot make sign-and-trades that would put them over the luxury-tax apron. Had the rule been in place this summer, the Lakers would not have been able to add Nash.
   2228. robinred Posted: August 24, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4216988)
ESPN's Uni Watch rates the Top 25 unis in all four major US pro sports. Highest-rated NBA team is Boston at 10:

http://espn.go.com/espn/playbook/story/_/id/8295892/uni-watch-power-rankings-rates-nfl-mlb-nba-nhl-uniforms-1-122
   2229. andrewberg Posted: August 24, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4216991)
ESPN's Uni Watch rates the Top 25 unis in all four major US pro sports. Highest-rated NBA team is Boston at 10:


As a loyal listener, I feel like I have to point out that Dave Dameshek did this same project several weeks ago at nfl.com/shek. I think he also had Boston as the top NBA team and Cleveland right behind them.
   2230. andrewberg Posted: August 24, 2012 at 03:55 PM (#4216993)
Paul to the Lakers is a moot point. Starting next summer teams cannot make sign-and-trades that would put them over the luxury-tax apron. Had the rule been in place this summer, the Lakers would not have been able to add Nash.


Can they put themselves over the apron then make the trade, or is there just no S&Ting; if it results in taxage? That could create some odd incentives, if the Lakers intentionally signed someone to go over the tax just to preserve their right to S&T.
   2231. robinred Posted: August 24, 2012 at 04:01 PM (#4217000)
I thought that rule kicked in the year after next; I was thinking of the new tax penalties and thought they went together. Apparently not.

I always get a kick out of talking about/ranking sports uniforms.
   2232. andrewberg Posted: August 24, 2012 at 04:04 PM (#4217005)
I always get a kick out of talking about/ranking sports uniforms.


What are some of your favorites?

I think my favorite in any sport is the home Michigan football uniform. Also love the NY Rangers, USC football, UCLA basketball (not the stupid gold letter), St. Louis Cards, the old Knicks jerseys with orange and blue alternating piping. Many others.
   2233. kpelton Posted: August 24, 2012 at 04:13 PM (#4217014)
Can they put themselves over the apron then make the trade, or is there just no S&Ting; if it results in taxage?

Nope. No S&Ts; for teams above the apron; the wording there is to make it clear that you can't be under the tax, than make the trade and go above the tax apron.
   2234. Booey Posted: August 24, 2012 at 04:25 PM (#4217024)
Since I'm bored at work, here's their rankings of the NBA teams, with their overall ranking amongst all 122 teams in parenthesis:

1 - Celtics (10)
2 - Spurs (16)
3 - Lakers (18)
4 - Warriors (20)
5 - Jazz (22)
6 - Wizards (31)
7 - Thunder (37)
8 - Heat (40)
9 - Knicks (44)
10 - Blazers (48)
11 - Pistons (57)
12 - Pacers (61)
13 - Bulls (67)
14 - Sixers (70)
15 - Hornets (74)
16 - Suns (77)
17 - Grizzlies (78)
18 - Nuggets (84)
19 - Rockets (86)
20 - Hawks (89)
21 - Raptors (92)
22 - Bucks (96)
23 - Cavs (101)
24 - Mavs (105)
25 - Clippers (106)
26 - Bobcats (109): Look Bobcats fan(s), you finally beat somebody!
27 - Magic (111)
28 - TWolves (115)
29 - Nets (120)
30 - Kings (122): Dead last amongst all pro teams. Way to go, Sacto!
   2235. robinred Posted: August 24, 2012 at 04:26 PM (#4217026)
I think many people, even young guys like yourself, seem to like traditonal unis. My fave uni in sports is the UCLA road BB classic light blue, but I am biased since I went there. I am a traditionalist; I am not into alternates and all that stuff.

MLB: Tigers (I think the Tigers' home uni is one of the best in sports) Cardinals, Angels
NBA: Lakers (not the white home ones) Spurs, Suns home unis, Pistons, Celtics road unis
NFL: Cowboys, Chargers when they go light blue, Packers, Dolphins, Vikings. I also like the Cleveland Browns unis, in that they are sort of original in their basic ugliness and very traditional. And I think the Raiders uni is a classic, although as a (casual) Chargers fan I have to hate them.
NHL: I don't follow hockey at all, but the unis that seem cool to me are Detroit, Boston, and Chicago.

In the poll I linked, the Canadiens' uni is #1 overall. I gather that their CH is as iconic as the Yankees' NY or the Cowboys' star.

I feel strongly that the Padres need to bring back the brown and gold. It was ugly when I was a kid; I think it would be retrocool now.


   2236. robinred Posted: August 24, 2012 at 04:29 PM (#4217032)
Nope.


Stern wanted to make sure the deal stayed vetoed.
   2237. andrewberg Posted: August 24, 2012 at 05:00 PM (#4217064)
Vikings


I always hated that the Vikings jerseys and helmets don't match. Same is true for the blue in the Cowboys' helmets vs. numbers.
   2238. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: August 24, 2012 at 05:31 PM (#4217076)
I was going to rank the NBA uniforms but I was shaken by the realization that the Clippers and 76ers have basically been wearing the same thing for the last few years.

Also it's hard to tell apart all the teams that are blue and orange.
   2239. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: August 28, 2012 at 01:35 PM (#4220208)
Yet another article (ESPN Insider) talking about the Bulls' bad offseason. I don't disagree with much in here, but there also isn't much that wasn't said by Deeks, Blogabull, Dwyer, etc.

A small part of me - the part that includes the irrational fan part - wants to say that it sure seems like there's been some retroactive overrating of the Bulls bench players. It's hard to single out individual performances that drove the results (yes, Asik's defense, but that's still only 12 min or so a game). There was a lot of talk, here too, about the bench signings they made 2 years ago and whether or not they were the best choices. That's not to defend any of the individual signings this offseason (Hinrich specifically, since they are oddly enough paying for the name as much if not more as for the performance), but there might be something to be said for the coaching and the personnel department filling the holes with the right fits. So I do tend to think that it wouldn't be surprising if the Bulls yet again overachieved this regular season - I'm surely not predicting it, and it's not going to be enjoyable to watch even if they do win a lot. More than anything, it is good to see more and more people calling ######## on the Bulls flexibility plans, etc, while constantly failing to make any move of significance.

He also ends with this line:

Let's not forget that only Atlanta lost more games in the 10-year period after Michael Jordan left the Bulls, yet Chicago led the league in attendance.

The attendance part is true, but the part about the Hawks just didn't seem right to me. It's not - Bulls lost 540 games those 10 years and the Hawks 537 - but it's much closer than I expected. But there might be a team that lost more than the Bulls in that period, but I'm not sure of the easiest way to figure it out (I added the Bulls and Hawks totals manually). Charlotte wasn't around the whole time, so it's not them.
   2240. NJ in DC Posted: August 28, 2012 at 01:55 PM (#4220232)
I'm bored. Can we do a BBTF NBA Rank or something?
   2241. PJ Martinez Posted: August 28, 2012 at 06:44 PM (#4220619)
I second the motion in 2240. Maybe we should just create a September thread a few days early.
   2242. thok Posted: August 28, 2012 at 08:18 PM (#4220698)
It's not - Bulls lost 540 games those 10 years and the Hawks 537 - but it's much closer than I expected. But there might be a team that lost more than the Bulls in that period, but I'm not sure of the easiest way to figure it out (I added the Bulls and Hawks totals manually). Charlotte wasn't around the whole time, so it's not them.


When I do a combined season finder on the NBA from 1999 to 2008 at basketball reference, I get the claimed result. You seem to have done 11 straight years (at which point Atlanta and Chicago are 3rd and 4th, with the Clippers and Memphis at 555 losses and 554 losses respectively.)
   2243. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 28, 2012 at 08:28 PM (#4220704)
I'm bored. Can we do a BBTF NBA Rank or something?

Here's something. I tried this for baseball a while back, but it seems like a question better-suited for basketball. Three parts:

1. What is the best team you can make of players who never won a title? (Preferably leaving off guys who still have large chunks of their careers ahead of them – I don’t know if Durant would make the team anyway, but he’s not eligible.)

2. What is the worst team you can make of players who were arguably the best player on a team that won the title? (You can pick anyone for whom you think a reasonable argument exists, but no two players from the same team – so, Rasheed Wallace or Chauncey Billups from the ’04 Pistons, but not both. Try to avoid picking more than one guy from multi-year title winning groups as well.)

3. Which team is better?
   2244. JJ1986 Posted: August 28, 2012 at 08:34 PM (#4220710)
What is the worst team you can make of players who were arguably the best player on a team that won the title?


I'm not 100% sure, but other than Chauncey in '04, it looks like every team since 1979 was fronted by an inner circle guy.
   2245. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: August 28, 2012 at 09:05 PM (#4220726)
1. What is the best team you can make of players who never won a title? (Preferably leaving off guys who still have large chunks of their careers ahead of them – I don’t know if Durant would make the team anyway, but he’s not eligible.)

PG: mark price
SG: reggie miller
SF: dominique wilkins
PF: karl malone
C: dikembe mutombo
2. What is the worst team you can make of players who were arguably the best player on a team that won the title? (You can pick anyone for whom you think a reasonable argument exists, but no two players from the same team – so, Rasheed Wallace or Chauncey Billups from the ’04 Pistons, but not both. Try to avoid picking more than one guy from multi-year title winning groups as well.)

PG: chauncey billups (04)
SG: dwayne wade (06)
SF: paul pierce (08)
PF: pau gasol (09)
C: tim duncan (99)

   2246. PJ Martinez Posted: August 28, 2012 at 09:13 PM (#4220731)
In 2245, Team B would crush TEAM A, I think.

Edit: Can we put Barkley at small forward?
   2247. JJ1986 Posted: August 28, 2012 at 09:17 PM (#4220733)
Wade in 06 was one of the best seasons of all time.
   2248. NJ in DC Posted: August 28, 2012 at 09:18 PM (#4220734)
2245, Ewing has to be the C, no?
   2249. PJ Martinez Posted: August 28, 2012 at 09:21 PM (#4220739)
Yeah, so:

Stockton
Moncrief
Barkley
Malone
Ewing

Edit: Could be Miller or Gervin at SG instead. Not sure. Moncrief was the best of those defensively, right?
   2250. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: August 28, 2012 at 09:30 PM (#4220746)
the way i look at it, price and miller are two of the best shooters in NBA history, malone is one of the best scorers, wilkins is a prolific slasher, and mutombo is one of the best defensive players in history.

ewing, barkley, and stockton were some of the last cuts, alongside chris mullin, tracy mcgrady, and allen iverson

\
   2251. NJ in DC Posted: August 28, 2012 at 09:31 PM (#4220748)
Other nominees for the 2 guard spot: Mitch Richmond, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson.

EDIT: mutombo is one of the best defensive players in history.

Can't the same be said for Ewing and isn't he a much better offensive player?
   2252. PJ Martinez Posted: August 28, 2012 at 09:31 PM (#4220749)
The gulf between Barkley and Wilkins talent-wise overwhelms any question of "fit." I'd say the same is true of Ewing/Mutombo and Stockton/Price (and it's not like Stockton couldn't do a lot of Price did, too).
   2253. thok Posted: August 28, 2012 at 09:34 PM (#4220752)
B can be made worse: put Jack Sikma at center to represent the 79 Supersonics for example. (If you want to be cruel, take somebody off of the 1951 Rochester Royals.)

Also, Barkley might not make the team at small forward, since we should at least consider putting Elgin Baylor there instead.
   2254. PJ Martinez Posted: August 28, 2012 at 09:39 PM (#4220753)
Sikma seems like a good call. I wasn't following the league then, but eyeballing the numbers, he doesn't seem *totally* out of line as a "best on a balanced team" pick.

Also, yeah, Baylor. He was only 6'5", but I assume putting him at SG would be cheating?
   2255. JJ1986 Posted: August 28, 2012 at 09:42 PM (#4220754)
I really don't think Pierce counts as the best player on the 08 Celtics.
   2256. GregD Posted: August 28, 2012 at 09:43 PM (#4220756)
The gulf between Barkley and Wilkins talent-wise overwhelms any question of "fit." I'd say the same is true of Ewing/Mutombo and Stockton/Price (and it's not like Stockton couldn't do a lot of Price did, too).
Barkley, Ewing, and Stockton are 3 of my least-favorite 5 players of all time, but I cannot conceive any argument except The Natural throwing games scenario where one would pick Wilkins, Stockton, or Mutombo over them. If the criteria of "fit" leads you to take Price over Stockton, it's time to rethink who's fitting with whom.
   2257. Spivey Posted: August 28, 2012 at 10:42 PM (#4220794)
I have to agree with 2256. I think Ewing is very overrated, but the idea that Mutombo is better than Ewing is absurd.
   2258. Spivey Posted: August 28, 2012 at 10:50 PM (#4220800)
Duncan on the Spurs team that won the title over the Pistons is in the discussion for worst center/PF on an all-time great - at the very least it's worse than the 99 Duncan. You could also make a decent argument for Ginobili at SG that year, who would definitely take the crown over Wade 06 (if we're doing years, instead of general careers).
   2259. andrewberg Posted: August 29, 2012 at 12:35 AM (#4220847)
Payton is a better rival for Stockton than price.

Drexler maybe at SG?
   2260. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: August 29, 2012 at 01:14 AM (#4220871)
Payton is a better rival for Stockton than price.

Drexler maybe at SG?
payton won with miami in 06, and drexler won with houston in 94.


and i think mark price is just a very interesting player. 47/40/90 FG/3P/FT percentages, with 6+ assists per game (8 at his peak). i guess that's kind of a poor man's john stockton, but he was still a very respectable player at his peak.
   2261. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: August 29, 2012 at 01:29 AM (#4220874)
I think there's a pretty good argument for Dumars at SG on the title team. Isiah is generally considered the best player on the Pistons in 1989 and 1990, but Dumars won Finals MVP in 1989, and over those two seasons Dumars had 2 more Win Shares and trailed Isiah by 0.2 in PER.
   2262. andrewberg Posted: August 29, 2012 at 01:44 AM (#4220876)
payton won with miami in 06, and drexler won with houston in 94.


Oh, I was going by finals losers. Yeah, that's a sparse team after the jazz and Barkley.
   2263. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2012 at 08:13 AM (#4220918)
I almost want to throw in a "Best players to never win an MVP" team out there and see how they would do against the other two teams.
   2264. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: August 29, 2012 at 11:00 AM (#4221108)
   2265. Booey Posted: August 29, 2012 at 12:11 PM (#4221214)
No title team:

PF - Karl Malone
SF - Elgin Baylor
C - Patrick Ewing
SG - Reggie Miller
PG - John Stockton

Bench - Barkley, Nash, Mutombo, Wilkins, Gervin, Dantley, maybe Price as the 12th man. Anyone else?

Maybe we could move Miller to the bench and put Baylor at SG so Barkley could start at SF? Either way, this is a helluva team...

Edit: guess you could put Webber on the bench too
   2266. Booey Posted: August 29, 2012 at 12:12 PM (#4221215)
Yeah, that's a sparse team after the jazz and Barkley.


I don't think it's sparse at all.
   2267. Booey Posted: August 29, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4221232)
I'd squeeze Mullin onto the bench of my 2265 team over Price.

And I almost completely forgot the 2000's guys - Iverson, VC, McGrady. Probably cuz I hated all of those players...
   2268. andrewberg Posted: August 29, 2012 at 12:39 PM (#4221261)
I don't think it's sparse at all.


How would they do against 2nd best guys on title teams? Probably have to be more year-specific there

PG- Bob Cousy (several years), Oscar (71, kind of washed up by then), Walt Frazier (behind Willis I guess)
SG- Kobe (early 00s), Wade (12), Drexler
SF- Pippen, Dr. J, Hal Greer, Hondo (66, 68-69)
PF- Elvin Hayes (Unseld won 78 finals MVP), McHale, KG (arguably best in 08)
C- Kareem (80-onward, for the sake of simplicity), Chamberlain (72, assuming we agree West is #1 there), Cowens (74, 76), Shaq (06)

POOMA 3rd banana team:

PG- uhhh, Tom Gola? Tiny Archibald? Could I convince you that Jack Sikma was better than Gus Williams on the 79 Sonics?
SG- Sam Jones
SF-James Worthy/Bob Dandridge
PF- Dennis Rodman
C- Robert Parrish
   2269. Booey Posted: August 29, 2012 at 12:40 PM (#4221263)
I almost want to throw in a "Best players to never win an MVP" team out there and see how they would do against the other two teams.


No MVP team:

PF - McHale
SF - Baylor
C - Ewing
SG - Havlicek or Wade
PG - Stockton or Thomas

Bench - the other of Stock or Isiah and Hondo or Flash, Pippen, Drexler, take your pick from Miller, Wilkins, Gervin, Dantley, Pierce, Allen, GP, Mullin. Probably Parrish or Mutombo or Zo as the backup center. Hmmm...no backup PF's, so maybe replace someone with Webber or Pau Gasol.

Probably a bunch of other guys I missed.
   2270. andrewberg Posted: August 29, 2012 at 12:48 PM (#4221280)
I almost want to throw in a "Best players to never win an MVP" team out there and see how they would do against the other two teams.


PG- Chris Paul, or if you think he still has too many chances to count, Isiah Thomas or Jason Kidd
SG- West, Wade, Havlicek
SF- Baylor, Pippen
PF- (most of the great bigs have MVPs) McHale
C- Mikan! played before there were MVPs. Otherwise, Ewing vs. Dwight vs. Nate Thurmond

coke. I should've said Stockton too, and you could throw Neil Johnstone at PF under the Mikan loophole.
   2271. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: August 29, 2012 at 12:53 PM (#4221290)
[2268] Hal Greer was a SG all the way. Chet "The Jet" Walker was the SF on that 76ers team.
   2272. Booey Posted: August 29, 2012 at 12:55 PM (#4221295)
#2268 - The 2nd fiddle team would be a really good matchup against the no title team. The 3rd banana team would get crushed by either (and by the no MVP team).

I thought it was interesting that on the no MVP team it was hard to find all time great big men who never won an MVP. Seems great centers and PF's are more likely to win than guards and SF's.
   2273. Manny Coon Posted: August 29, 2012 at 12:58 PM (#4221302)

PG- uhhh, Tom Gola? Tiny Archibald? Could I convince you that Jack Sikma was better than Gus Williams on the 79 Sonics?


Tony Parker or Jason Kidd maybe?

KG (arguably best in 08)


What exactly is the argument for Pierce over Garnett that season? Pierce was good, but it looks like Garnett comes out easily ahead by almost every advanced metric and even subjectively his defensive impact was just huge that year to where it would seem to more than make up for whatever Pierce was better at as a scorer.
   2274. Booey Posted: August 29, 2012 at 12:58 PM (#4221303)
#2270 - I didn't include Paul or Dwight cuz I think they've still got a reasonable chance of winning one. Wade's window has closed, so he's there.

Did Jerry West really never win an MVP? Wow. Yeah, put him on my team in 2269 then. And maybe Kidd as yet another backup PG, but with Stockton, Thomas, and Payton already, I'm not sure you'd really need him.
   2275. andrewberg Posted: August 29, 2012 at 01:01 PM (#4221308)
Tony Parker or Jason Kidd maybe?


They both kind of sucked the years they won the title though, especially Kidd.

What exactly is the argument for Pierce over Garnett that season?


Basically Pierce winning Finals MVP. KG definitely had a better season.
   2276. andrewberg Posted: August 29, 2012 at 01:04 PM (#4221313)
The No-MVP team could be Stockton-West-Havlicek-McHale-Mikan. That team is almost as white as the Timberwolves.
   2277. Manny Coon Posted: August 29, 2012 at 01:11 PM (#4221318)
They both kind of sucked the years they won the title though, especially Kidd.


Parker was pretty good in 06-07, he's worse than I remember in 04-05 though. Kidd would have to be if you're doing some team building thing and value team management/leadership more than actual production (or live super crazy Wins Produced land), he's definitely a stretch though.


Could I convince you that Jack Sikma was better than Gus Williams on the 79 Sonics?


Even if Sikma is better, who else is better than Williams on that team? Johnson?
   2278. andrewberg Posted: August 29, 2012 at 01:33 PM (#4221346)
Even if Sikma is better, who else is better than Williams on that team? Johnson?


That would be the argument.
   2279. smileyy Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:57 PM (#4221466)
Tracy McGrady


IIRC, Peak McGrady is really damn good. The downside is, there was what that singular transcendent season of it. Hard to tell whether this sort of ranking is peak, career, or hybrid. I guess its kind of that HOF-esque mix of the two.
   2280. smileyy Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:58 PM (#4221467)
I really don't think Pierce counts as the best player on the 08 Celtics.


Well, the premise said "arguably". I could see making that argument. You'd be wrong, but you could make that argument.
   2281. Famous Original Joe C Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:43 PM (#4221629)
Hey all. Been awhile, been lurking but too busy with work to post much.
Enjoying this discussion of no title/no MVP teams.

Speaking of the "Worst best aplyers on a champ" team - how about Elvin Hays or Bobby Dandridge on the '78 Boulez? If Hayes, play him at PF with Gasol at C. If you prefer Dandridge, there's your shooting guard or small forward. Although, I'd also agree that Garnett was probably the best player on that Celtics team, even though Pierce was Finals MVP.

Zach Lowe is going to be writing for Grantland, according to Bill Simmons' Twitter.
   2282. Booey Posted: August 29, 2012 at 05:05 PM (#4221662)
Speaking of the "Worst best aplyers on a champ" team - how about Elvin Hays or Bobby Dandridge on the '78 Boulez? If Hayes, play him at PF with Gasol at C.


Too lazy to look up the numbers, but does Gasol really have a legit argument over Kobe to being the best player on the 2009 or 2010 Lakers?
   2283. robinred Posted: August 29, 2012 at 05:50 PM (#4221712)
Gasol was ahead of Bryant on WS48 both years and in PER in 2010. My personal opinion, having watched each team play about 50 times, is that Bryant was the best player on the 2009 team and that they were of roughly equal value to the 2010 team.
   2284. robinred Posted: August 29, 2012 at 05:52 PM (#4221713)
Lowe is a good call for Grantland, but it is funny that Simmons tabbed a Boston fan for what I presume will be his NBA stathead slot.
   2285. thok Posted: August 29, 2012 at 06:25 PM (#4221740)
The third banana teams is fairly strong at power forward, since you get both Bosh and peak Horace Grant to go with Rodman. Maurice Cheeks can play point guard (Philly 83)
   2286. Manny Coon Posted: August 29, 2012 at 06:54 PM (#4221764)
PG- Bob Cousy (several years), Oscar (71, kind of washed up by then), Walt Frazier (behind Willis I guess)
SG- Kobe (early 00s), Wade (12), Drexler
SF- Pippen, Dr. J, Hal Greer, Hondo (66, 68-69)
PF- Elvin Hayes (Unseld won 78 finals MVP), McHale, KG (arguably best in 08)
C- Kareem (80-onward, for the sake of simplicity), Chamberlain (72, assuming we agree West is #1 there), Cowens (74, 76), Shaq (06)


Whoever is second from the 99 Spurs probably goes here somewhere.
   2287. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: August 30, 2012 at 03:04 PM (#4222781)
it is funny that Simmons tabbed a Boston fan for what I presume will be his NBA stathead slot.


It's hilarious. Still, is there a better NBA stathead available? I really don't think so.
   2288. NJ in DC Posted: August 30, 2012 at 03:37 PM (#4222837)
FWIW, I regularly read Lowe's work and had no idea he was a Celtics fan.
   2289. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: August 31, 2012 at 02:48 PM (#4223860)
Asked if he'd ever listening to Stephen Jackson's music, Gregg Popovich said...
Jack used to try to give me some of his tapes, but, first of all I couldn’t even understand what was going on, and some of them you could even dance to, but once I started hearing what they were saying and everything I just gave them back.



   2290. robinred Posted: August 31, 2012 at 04:13 PM (#4223960)
I am a fan of Lowe's and have linked him here many times. He, Paine (also a Boston fan) and Pelton are probably my three favorite writers among that whole group. Lowe earned the gig with Simmons by doing good work.

But...I still think it's funny.
   2291. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: September 03, 2012 at 09:31 PM (#4225811)
this is the NBA thread, but since there's no viable NCAA basketball thread, does anyone have any thoughts on coack K turning in shabazz muhammad and UCLA for recruiting violations?
   2292. andrewberg Posted: September 04, 2012 at 12:31 AM (#4225917)
Link?
   2293. smileyy Posted: September 05, 2012 at 03:13 AM (#4226825)
I haven't heard the Coach K connection to it. But, uh, Corey Maggette springs to mind. Did Duke learn their lesson, or get better at the game?

Any Maryland basketball fans? Congrats on Dez Wells -- he'll be huge, though I wouldn't expect him to last for his remaining 3 years of eligibility.
   2294. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 05, 2012 at 08:01 PM (#4227712)
Primer Retweet:
Marc Stein:
Sources close to process say Nets confident of completing Blatche signing this week. @HowardBeckNYT reported that parties met over weekend
   2295. andrewberg Posted: September 05, 2012 at 10:10 PM (#4227777)
Does that negate all the good the nets have done this summer? Or just most of it?
   2296. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: September 05, 2012 at 11:39 PM (#4227857)
Does that negate all the good the nets have done this summer? Or just most of it?
the nets have done good? a pessimistic interpretation of their offseason would say that they traded for the worst contract in the NBA, and then chose to sign brook lopez and kris humphries to significant extensions instead of trading them to orlando for dwight howard.

Link?
i should have said "allegedly". but there does seem to be some smoke w/r/t someone on duke's staff turning shabazz in for recruiting violations after he pulled duke off his final list.
   2297. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: September 06, 2012 at 12:58 PM (#4228320)
WojYahooNBA: Brian Scalabrine has turned down coaching job with Bulls and will call games for Comcast Sports New England this season, he tells Y! Sports.


Glad that's finally settled.
   2298. andrewberg Posted: September 06, 2012 at 02:17 PM (#4228418)
Good interview with Nellie ahead of his HOF induction link
   2299. AROM Posted: September 06, 2012 at 02:53 PM (#4228475)
The 79 Sonics have a spot on this team:

PG: chauncey billups (04)
SG: dwayne wade (06)
SF: paul pierce (08)
PF: pau gasol (09)
C: tim duncan (99)


But I'm not sure where. Sikma is worse than Duncan, Williams is worse than Billups, and Johnson is worse than Wade. Pick one of them. Maybe Elvin Hayes or Wes Unseld (78) can make the team.
   2300. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: September 09, 2012 at 02:21 AM (#4230784)
national championship winning duke forward lance thomas is being sued for $100K in unpaid jewelry bills. if that has any blowback on duke's program, that'll be the third high profile rules violation in the last couple of weeks, after UNC's transcript issues, and UCLA's recruiting issues.

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