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Monday, July 02, 2012

OT: NBA basketball July Thread 2012

I estimate that only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what the site is really about: Jim Furtado trolling his own site when he’s bored.

Tripon Posted: July 02, 2012 at 04:21 PM | 2487 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball

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   2401. Bitter Mouse Posted: September 25, 2012 at 08:32 PM (#4245712)
I am the thread leech. I don't think I know enough to rank the players (other than semi-randomly) nor enough to do the league. But I want them both to happen and folks to talk about it.

New handle of Bitter Leech?
   2402. Spivey Posted: September 25, 2012 at 09:08 PM (#4245742)
I don't understand how a lot of you guys are able to watch so much basketball. Between baseball, college football, and just the NBA playoffs (and random smatterings of soccer, playoff hockey, and college basketball) I feel like I'm walking a fine line as it is.
   2403. Booey Posted: September 25, 2012 at 09:55 PM (#4245777)
What, you have something against raptor-faced men?


Bosh looks like a giant catfish. Gasol is the tallest hobo I've ever seen.
   2404. smileyy Posted: September 25, 2012 at 10:00 PM (#4245782)
[2403] I've never heard Chris Bosh captured so accurately before.
   2405. rr Posted: September 25, 2012 at 10:23 PM (#4245797)
I am the thread leech. I don't think I know enough to rank the players (other than semi-randomly) nor enough to do the league. But I want them both to happen and folks to talk about it.


Maybe Modest Mouse would make a better handle.

I think you "know enough" to at least do a Top 20; those kinds of lists, except for certain issues (James #1 at the moment being one), are pretty subjective.

For example, I would have Kevin Garnett ahead of several guys who he is behind on the ESPN list, but while there is a lot of data to support Garnett's value on D, that judgment is also in many respects subjective on my part.
   2406. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: September 25, 2012 at 11:22 PM (#4245831)
I still think the ostrich is the best comp for Bosh.
   2407. rr Posted: September 25, 2012 at 11:23 PM (#4245834)
   2408. rr Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:21 AM (#4245880)
"My mission is to kill," Terry said at the team's annual golf tournament at The International. "Whoever that is, whether it's the Heat, whether it's the Lakers. Hopefully both. That's my mission and that's what I'm here to do.
   2409. jmurph Posted: September 26, 2012 at 08:46 AM (#4245966)
I signed up for the league -- I hope I don't have to miss the draft like I did last year. Really took away a lot of my motivation for participating. But I don't think I'll be in Las Vegas this time.


No one gets to complain about the draft last year- I was 10 minutes late and in that time the computer autodrafted Hedo ####### Turgoglu for me. And he didn't come cheap.
   2410. Booey Posted: September 26, 2012 at 11:20 AM (#4246146)
[2403] I've never heard Chris Bosh captured so accurately before.


If he suddenly sported fleshy barbs growing out the side of his face next season, I doubt I would even notice the difference. And if someone pointed it out, my response would probably be, "Hasn't he always had those?"

Good calls on the ostrich and Jar-Jar comps as well.

No one gets to complain about the draft last year- I was 10 minutes late and in that time the computer autodrafted Hedo ####### Turgoglu for me. And he didn't come cheap.


Sticking with the topic of hideous players...
   2411. Moses Taylor Posted: September 26, 2012 at 11:54 AM (#4246187)
I don't understand how a lot of you guys are able to watch so much basketball. Between baseball, college football, and just the NBA playoffs (and random smatterings of soccer, playoff hockey, and college basketball) I feel like I'm walking a fine line as it is.

It's hard, especially now with a kid. Luckily for me, it was easy to drop baseball this year - I think I watched less baseball this year than any other year in my life - and I'm not that big on college football (and have been turned off on it even further than what Ron Zook did to me). NFL gets every Sunday - and the rare Monday or Thursday if nothing else is going on. And then basketball - pro only, I'm also pretty much done with college too except for March - is top priority. I only watch soccer during the World Cup or if I haven't gotten out of bed yet on Saturday mornings and it's on. Hockey is good during commercial breaks/halftime of basketball games.
   2412. rr Posted: September 26, 2012 at 01:23 PM (#4246317)
And then basketball - pro only, I'm also pretty much done with college too except for March - is top priority


And all of us here are counting on you to keep it that way, mister.
   2413. Moses Taylor Posted: September 26, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4246409)
11 Dirk
12 Rondo
13 Bynum
14 Griffin
15 P Gasol


6 Kobe
7 K Love (Jimmy isn't happy about this)
8 D Wade
9 Westbrook
10 D Williams

That means the top 5 are, in some order, but most likely this one (or swap Durant and Howard): LeBron, Durant, Howard, Paul, Rose.
   2414. Jon T. Posted: September 26, 2012 at 03:01 PM (#4246433)
Moses - yes, I moved him down quite a bit because he's gonna miss at least some of the season and who knows how well he comes back. Otherwise I would have had him top 5.

   2415. smileyy Posted: September 26, 2012 at 04:01 PM (#4246487)
[2411] I'm going to have a hard time with the college basketball season this year too. Part of the reason is that Xavier is likely not going to be good. Which is somewhat connected to the my growing feeling that college sports as a justification unto themselves should exist anymore.
   2416. Bitter Mouse Posted: September 26, 2012 at 04:01 PM (#4246489)
That means the top 5 are


not the starting five of the 76ers? I call bias.

Seriously I am surprised Love is 7, but maybe I am wrong about his (lack of) defense.
   2417. Moses Taylor Posted: September 26, 2012 at 04:13 PM (#4246506)
Which is somewhat connected to the my growing feeling that college sports as a justification unto themselves should exist anymore.

Yes, same here.
   2418. steagles Posted: September 26, 2012 at 04:21 PM (#4246516)
not the starting five of the 76ers? I call bias.
top 3 sixers:

andrew bynum: 13
jrue holiday: 73
thaddeus young: 91

after that, you had hawes, turner, (nick) young, and richardson all come off the board as 4 of the 5 from 117-121


   2419. Chicago Joe Posted: September 26, 2012 at 05:06 PM (#4246566)
I'm also pretty much done with college too except for March


I think you'll have good reason to reengage this year.
   2420. Booey Posted: September 26, 2012 at 06:56 PM (#4246688)
This ESPN list loves their PG's, apparently. Rose (at least #5), Williams (#10), and Rondo (#12) are all about 5 spots higher than I would've ranked them. Probably even more for the latter two.
   2421. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: September 26, 2012 at 07:16 PM (#4246706)
Phx Mercury win the WNBA lottery.

Brittney Griner, come on down!
   2422. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 09:17 PM (#4246769)
This ESPN list loves their PG's, apparently. Rose (at least #5), Williams (#10), and Rondo (#12) are all about 5 spots higher than I would've ranked them. Probably even more for the latter two.

Feel like I'm agreeing with Booey a lot lately, but...yeah. I mean...Derrick Rose has risen (at least) 3 spots after tearing his ACL.
   2423. Booey Posted: September 26, 2012 at 11:56 PM (#4246859)
Derrick Rose has risen (at least) 3 spots after tearing his ACL.


That struck me as weird too. I think I'd tend to rate him a little more conservatively until we know when he's coming back and how close to full strength he'll be. These rankings are supposed to be for just the 2012-13 season, aren't they?
   2424. tshipman Posted: September 27, 2012 at 12:22 AM (#4246867)
Seriously I am surprised Love is 7, but maybe I am wrong about his (lack of) defense.


All of the other guys in the top 10 have been on playoff teams as the best member of the team. Not a perfect metric given how weak Minnesota has been, but I think that 7 is quite a bit too high.

Derrick Rose has risen (at least) 3 spots after tearing his ACL.

...
That struck me as weird too.


Probably an eyeballs thing. D-Rose brings eyeballs.

Underrated: probably Wade, actually. Certainly KG. Al Horford? Zach Randolph probably.

In general, that list has too many guards/wings and too few bigs.
   2425. smileyy Posted: September 27, 2012 at 12:38 AM (#4246877)
[2424] Guys who create their own shot make it easy to look good, though we've remarked extensively on the difficulty of building a team with a PF as the best player.
   2426. steagles Posted: September 27, 2012 at 12:56 AM (#4246880)
[2424] Guys who create their own shot make it easy to look good, though we've remarked extensively on the difficulty of building a team with a PF as the best player.
is that actually a thing? i know i talked about it in here a while back, but i didn't know that anyone else bought in.
   2427. smileyy Posted: September 27, 2012 at 01:14 AM (#4246882)
Every old discussion is new again :)
   2428. Moses Taylor Posted: September 27, 2012 at 02:06 PM (#4247297)
That means the top 5 are, in some order, but most likely this one (or swap Durant and Howard): LeBron, Durant, Howard, Paul, Rose.

And that is the order.
   2429. Moses Taylor Posted: September 27, 2012 at 06:10 PM (#4247588)
I think you'll have good reason to reengage this year.

Meh. Nothing against Groce or any of the players, but I don't see myself getting sucked back in. Today reinforces it.
   2430. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 27, 2012 at 08:09 PM (#4247652)
This Keyon Dooling interview about his retirement (but really all sorts of things) is Celtics-heavy for obvious reasons, but still a really fascinating read.
   2431. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: September 27, 2012 at 08:49 PM (#4247674)
Second the dooling recommendation
   2432. Moses Taylor Posted: September 28, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4248015)
Second the dooling recommendation

But his rating of players is a bit...skewed. Otherwise, yes, good read.
   2433. rr Posted: September 28, 2012 at 11:29 AM (#4248017)
but I think that 7 is quite a bit too high.


Maybe. Looking at the final list, I agree with the Top 4, and I think the only dispute there is Howard/Durant. Even with the back questions and all the bricks at the stripe, I personally would still take Howard #2 due to his D.


But I think after Paul, it gets pretty subjective in a hurry.
   2434. andrewberg Posted: September 28, 2012 at 12:03 PM (#4248046)
Maybe. Looking at the final list, I agree with the Top 4, and I think the only dispute there is Howard/Durant. Even with the back questions and all the bricks at the stripe, I personally would still take Howard #2 due to his D.


I think I'd put Wade ahead of Love for now. He has had injury issues, but I think the perception of him is skewed a bit more because he has taken a back seat to Lebron in terms of running the offense. He is still a phenomenal player. Even though his style does not make him a personal favorite, he is a better defender and creator than Love.

Other than that, I think he is pretty even with Westbrook, and I'd take him pretty easily over anyone else behind him. 26 and 13 still mean something, and it was only for a losing team once the mediocre lineu paroudn him suffered injuries and became a very poor lineup.
   2435. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: September 28, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4248050)
The Dooling article is a serious one and worth reading from that angle but I also laughed out loud at:

Rondo is my friend. I want my son to play ball like Rondo but shoot like me.
   2436. Booey Posted: September 28, 2012 at 01:06 PM (#4248095)
but I think that 7 is quite a bit too high.


That was my initial reaction as well, but after thinking about it some more it doesn't really seem too out of place. With Duncan, Dirk, and KG almost ready to start collecting social security checks, Love has got to be considered the best PF in the game by a pretty wide margin, right? That sounds like top 10, IMO.

I think I'd put Wade ahead of Love for now


Wade's a tough one for me to rank. He's still a great player, obviously, but last season he seemed to take a small step back from his previous seasons. And at 30, it doesn't seem too unlikely that he may simply be entering his decline phrase. It's pretty much a toss up for me as to who I'd rather have next season between Wade and Westbrook. And I'd probably take Love over either.
   2437. Tripon Posted: September 28, 2012 at 01:13 PM (#4248102)
Have you guys talked about the flopping fines the NBA wants to implement?
   2438. Famous Original Joe C Posted: September 28, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4248108)
Are we going to do a BBTF Rank or what? Where's that spreadsheet, NJ?
   2439. Jimmy P Posted: September 28, 2012 at 01:23 PM (#4248113)
John Wall will miss 8 weeks with a petalla injury. Ouch
   2440. andrewberg Posted: September 28, 2012 at 01:37 PM (#4248132)
Have you guys talked about the flopping fines the NBA wants to implement?


My suggestion for the flopping penalty is to chronicle the foul that the flopper was trying to sell, then have Ivan Johnson commit that actual foul to them after the game.
   2441. Moses Taylor Posted: September 28, 2012 at 02:20 PM (#4248188)
Have you guys talked about the flopping fines the NBA wants to implement?

I'm waiting to hear what it's actually going to be. The specifics aren't out yet. Even though they're saying nothing in game will change, it better be a point of emphasis to the officials to not reward flopping in game.

My suggestion for the flopping penalty is to chronicle the foul that the flopper was trying to sell, then have Ivan Johnson commit that actual foul to them after the game.

I like.

John Wall will miss 8 weeks with a petalla injury. Ouch

He's not a bust, but I've been disappointed in him. I argued on this very site at one point that coming out of college, he was a better prospect than Rose coming out of college. Rose took a leap I didn't expect (though I had hoped for it), and I've seen little out of Wall that predict that leap coming. Yes, that environment wasn't great for him, but I still thought there'd be more. I can't believe how much more I expect out of Irving now - who I didn't like at all coming out of college.
   2442. andrewberg Posted: September 28, 2012 at 02:37 PM (#4248210)
He's not a bust, but I've been disappointed in him. I argued on this very site at one point that coming out of college, he was a better prospect than Rose coming out of college. Rose took a leap I didn't expect (though I had hoped for it), and I've seen little out of Wall that predict that leap coming. Yes, that environment wasn't great for him, but I still thought there'd be more. I can't believe how much more I expect out of Irving now - who I didn't like at all coming out of college.


He is a good datapoint to demonstrate that there are no predetermined realities for players in the developmental chain. Sometimes we talk about what a player became as if it was a fait accompli, but a lot goes into the end result. Obviously, Kevin Durant was always more likely to achieve his potential than Hasheem Thabeet, but Wall and Rose are good examples of guys who were on reasonably similar trajectories up to a certain age, and have taken very different paths in the years immediately following that. Of course, Wall is going to have many opportunities to take more steps forward, but each side step or backward step makes that probability lower.
   2443. jmurph Posted: September 28, 2012 at 02:40 PM (#4248216)
My suggestion for dealing with flopping is to completely ignore it like we did before some random True Hoop blogger watched the World Cup and decided flopping was the greatest affront to humanity in the history of affrontery and brought that battle to the NBA and the media started whining about it all of the time.

Okay, that's a slight exaggeration, but I mostly don't see what the big deal is.
   2444. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: September 28, 2012 at 02:43 PM (#4248218)
He's not a bust, but I've been disappointed in him. I argued on this very site at one point that coming out of college, he was a better prospect than Rose coming out of college. Rose took a leap I didn't expect (though I had hoped for it), and I've seen little out of Wall that predict that leap coming. Yes, that environment wasn't great for him, but I still thought there'd be more. I can't believe how much more I expect out of Irving now - who I didn't like at all coming out of college.


Cosign. He'e easily young enough to take that step forward still, of course, and last year was better than it looked since offense was down everywhere (i.e. it doesn't represent a total stagnation from his rookie year). But he is looking like more of a top 10 PG than a top 5 one.

Do PGs peak later than other players? Intuitively I would think so since it's the most mental position (as opposed to athleticism) but I don't know if this is actually true.
   2445. Bitter Mouse Posted: September 28, 2012 at 03:09 PM (#4248243)
What I wonder is how much the environment of their respective teams influenced their development. In other words did being in Chicago help Rose and/or did the knucklehead factor hurt (and how much) Wall?

I suspect that is part (though maybe not all) the difference between them. Some of it is on them, but as a PG I have to think it is hard to develop into a superstar surrounded by idiots and knuckleheads.
   2446. Moses Taylor Posted: September 28, 2012 at 03:38 PM (#4248270)
I think there are guys that can succeed/develop in spite of their environment/teammates/coaching staff. That might be the type of thing that's harder for us fans/analysts to predict - personalities, drive, etc. From my observations of Rose his first couple of seasons, I didn't see it and I thought I saw that in Wall in college. There's a fine line there where we start projecting our opinions onto the player, and that's what I appear to have done.

Do PGs peak later than other players? Intuitively I would think so since it's the most mental position (as opposed to athleticism) but I don't know if this is actually true.

Billups is always the guy that's talked about peaking later. But the NBA has so many of these young great PGs that seem to be so good right away.
   2447. JuanGone..except1game Posted: September 28, 2012 at 04:05 PM (#4248289)
I think there are guys that can succeed/develop in spite of their environment/teammates/coaching staff. That might be the type of thing that's harder for us fans/analysts to predict - personalities, drive, etc. From my observations of Rose his first couple of seasons, I didn't see it and I thought I saw that in Wall in college. There's a fine line there where we start projecting our opinions onto the player, and that's what I appear to have done.


I think a comparable example to Wall is Westbrook. Russell plays the same type of hyper, reckless game but his situation has put certain boundries around him that Wall never has had. I think that if you switched their experiences, Westbrook might have fallen in the same traps without a winning atmosphere and teammates/coaches who have given him space but also reigned him in from some of his excessive tendancies.

Nature vs. Nurture is always difficult to entangle.
   2448. andrewberg Posted: September 28, 2012 at 04:13 PM (#4248294)
That might be the type of thing that's harder for us fans/analysts to predict - personalities, drive, etc


Unless you have Danny Ainge's magical brain analysis contraption.

I think you're exactly right, though. It's always a fine line when analysis stops and projection begins. We all do that.
   2449. rr Posted: September 28, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4248327)
I think I'd put Wade ahead of Love for now. He has had injury issues, but I think the perception of him is skewed a bit more because he has taken a back seat to Lebron in terms of running the offense. He is still a phenomenal player. Even though his style does not make him a personal favorite, he is a better defender and creator than Love.

Other than that, I think he is pretty even with Westbrook, and I'd take him pretty easily over anyone else behind him. 26 and 13 still mean something, and it was only for a losing team once the mediocre lineu paroudn him suffered injuries and became a very poor lineup.


I think there are several guys after the Top 4 that you can put in various orders and be making a reasonable argument. Love's DRTG was 104 last year, after having been at 108 or 109. Leaving aside how one feels about that metric, where Love goes depends on how one evaluates his D.
   2450. rr Posted: September 28, 2012 at 04:52 PM (#4248332)
These rankings are supposed to be for just the 2012-13 season, aren't they?


Yep.
   2451. Famous Original Joe C Posted: September 28, 2012 at 05:03 PM (#4248336)
Oh, rr, I did get your e-mail. I'm just terrible at getting back to people. Mea culpa.
   2452. kpelton Posted: September 28, 2012 at 05:08 PM (#4248346)
Do PGs peak later than other players? Intuitively I would think so since it's the most mental position (as opposed to athleticism) but I don't know if this is actually true.

When I studied this way back in 2004, I concluded yes:
http://web.archive.org/web/20060904021917/http://www.hoopsworld.com/cgi-bin/news/exec/view.cgi?archive=39&num=7358

However, I think it's reasonable to assume the rules reinterpretations during 2004-05 may have changed the development curve for point guards. I'm not sure we have enough data points since then to really make a firm declaration.
   2453. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: September 29, 2012 at 10:47 AM (#4248806)
   2454. Manny Coon Posted: September 29, 2012 at 11:37 AM (#4248825)
Love has got to be considered the best PF in the game by a pretty wide margin, right? That sounds like top 10, IMO.


I think Blake Griffin is close to Love. Griffin I think despite occasional lapses is a better defender than Love and their offensive efficiency was pretty similar last year, and Griffin could make huge gains there even if he just returns to his rookie at of FT%. Griffin I think is rated too low because people are more focused on his flaws than how good he is at the things he's really good at.

I think there are several guys after the Top 4 that you can put in various orders and be making a reasonable argument. Love's DRTG was 104 last year, after having been at 108 or 109. Leaving aside how one feels about that metric, where Love goes depends on how one evaluates his D.


I do think Love's defense has improved but individual drtg doesn't mean much, its just team defense modified by B/S/R numbers and most of Love's improvement in drtg came from better defense from the team, where much of the improvement likely came from Rubio. When Rubio got hurt and the team collapsed later in the season, it was much more their defense that went bad than their offense.
   2455. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: September 29, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4248917)
Not a huge gap, but I definitely have love over griffin.
Griffin takes a lot of plays off on d and love's ability to stretch the floor / not be part of hack a Blake type games has significant value.
   2456. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: September 29, 2012 at 09:26 PM (#4249061)
Are we going to do a BBTF Rank or what? Where's that spreadsheet, NJ?

Started doing a surveymonkey thing but then they it requested that I register and I gave up. If people are interested, I'll figure something out.

NBA2K13: Anybody interested in a PS3 Online Association?

Love-Griffin: Put me in the Love is better than Griffin and I don't have to think twice camp.

Very interested to see what Stern decides to do about flopping. So much of NBA refereeing is already subjective but this is going to take things to another level.

Knicks wrapped up the '02-'05 titles with their acquisition of Rasheed Wallace today.
   2457. Spivey Posted: September 29, 2012 at 09:32 PM (#4249063)
For just the next year, I'd take Garnett over Griffin, and I think he's pretty close to Love. I would take Love though, but it's close. There's a reason why nobody ever wants to play Boston in the playoffs, and Garnett is a HUGE part of that.
   2458. steagles Posted: September 29, 2012 at 11:29 PM (#4249115)
There's a reason why nobody ever wants to play Boston in the playoffs, and Garnett is a HUGE part of that.
i'm probably not very representative of the common fan, but i was praying to ####### ganesh that the sixers would get to take a run at boston in the playoffs the last two years.
   2459. thok Posted: September 30, 2012 at 11:06 AM (#4249239)
So any thoughts on Rasheed coming out of retirement for the Knicks? He'd probably be their second or third best defender, even at 38 (behind Chandler for sure and maybe behind Shumpert.)
   2460. rr Posted: September 30, 2012 at 01:36 PM (#4249301)

Grizzlies forward Darrell Arthur will be out up to six weeks after breaking the top of the fibula in his left leg preparing for training camp.
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/basketball/nba/09/26/darrell-arthur-grizzlies.ap/index.html#ixzz27yYQiw2o
   2461. rr Posted: September 30, 2012 at 03:17 PM (#4249350)
I agree with Spivey on Garnett. I think you can make a case for rating him very highly, even at this age.
   2462. rr Posted: September 30, 2012 at 03:30 PM (#4249359)
It is behind the paywall, so I won't give any other info/ratings but NBAPET at BaskPro has Minnesota winning 51 games.
   2463. tshipman Posted: September 30, 2012 at 07:09 PM (#4249465)
It is behind the paywall, so I won't give any other info/ratings but NBAPET at BaskPro has Minnesota winning 51 games.


I guess this is under the heading of, "God, their wings HAVE to be better this year, don't they?"

I am a bit skeptical as I thought they over-achieved in the start of the year and Rubio is pretty fragile. I will say nice things to Berg if they do, though.
   2464. Spivey Posted: September 30, 2012 at 08:57 PM (#4249545)
i'm probably not very representative of the common fan, but i was praying to ####### ganesh that the sixers would get to take a run at boston in the playoffs the last two years.


I mean no high seeded team. Boston plays a style, and they play it against good teams and teams like Philly. It makes it hard for them to embarrass poor teams, but also very hard to beat them 4 times.
   2465. andrewberg Posted: October 01, 2012 at 12:39 PM (#4249977)
I am a bit skeptical as I thought they over-achieved in the start of the year and Rubio is pretty fragile. I will say nice things to Berg if they do, though.


Not much to add at this point. We will need to see some games before we can substantiate any of these statistical projections. Media day is today and the preseason games are starting soon. Even then, until we see what Rubio is going to provide, we'll have to just kind of guess how competitive they'll be.

I guess that leaves the question of how good the team can be without Rubio in the lineup early in the year. That leaves Ridnour/Barea at PG, Roy/Kirilenko/Budinger/Shved on the wings, and Love/Pek/Williams/Stiemsma/Cunningham inside. Still, we have NO IDEA what to expect from Roy. If he's a league average SG with his own tendencies of running the PNR and creating solid scoring chances off the dribble, that's probably still close to a .500 team. If they can be around that mark without Rubio, I will be encouraged.
   2466. Moses Taylor Posted: October 01, 2012 at 01:33 PM (#4250043)
KBergCBS: Sixers announce Andrew Bynum will be held out of basketball activities for three weeks to maximize therapy on a right knee bone bruise.

Someone's already in mid-season form.
   2467. Moses Taylor Posted: October 01, 2012 at 02:11 PM (#4250076)
ESPNSteinLine
Bulls formally announce their training camp roster and, along with @kyrylofesenko, another familiar name appears: Marko Jaric


It's funny, but the Bulls, through their own stupidity when it comes to cap management, have hard capped themselves and can't take more than the 13 players under contract (that excludes Fesenko and Jaric) into the season with them. About a month in, they can sign one more player to the minimum. IOW, they don't have enough space to sign a full minimum contract until the season has passed enough that the pro-rated amount fits in. I guess technically Nate Robinson has a non-guaranteed deal, so they could cut him in favor of someone else. But with Rose's injury, I expect he makes the team over other depth needs.
   2468. andrewberg Posted: October 01, 2012 at 02:50 PM (#4250125)
If they're under the cap, they didn't use their exceptions, right?

If so, is there some reason they couldn't waive Robinson and sign him for slightly more such that it gets them to the cap and they have access to the minimum salary exceptions for teams over the cap?
   2469. Moses Taylor Posted: October 01, 2012 at 03:06 PM (#4250146)
If so, is there some reason they couldn't waive Robinson and sign him for slightly more such that it gets them to the cap and they have access to the minimum salary exceptions for teams over the cap?

No, they're not under the cap and they will pay the tax*; however, they are hard capped by their own doing and here's more than you wanted to know on why.

The salary numbers seem to have changed a little bit since that was written, but here's the key point:

The Bulls total roster charges are at $73,548,398, which leaves only $758,602 under the Luxury Tax Apron, a figure that the Bulls cannot (no exceptions, no nothing) go over all season. I'm pretty sure that once the season starts, contracts are prorated, so by some quick math it won't be until game #11 where the Bulls can add a minimum salaried player as a 14th roster spot. Obviously there's a bit more room later in the year with 10-day contracts and the possibility of waiving Robinson.


The 2 year vets minimum salary is $884,293. That's what Robinson, plus Zazr and Vlad-Rad, are all making, and what Jaric or Fes would be able to sign for at the minimum.

OTOH, Bulls did sign Thibs to a 4 year extension today. Only took all offseason for no other apparent reason that Reinsdorf's cheapness.

*Unless they make a trade of say, Rip's contract, without taking any salary back.
   2470. andrewberg Posted: October 01, 2012 at 03:53 PM (#4250196)
Thanks for the explanation. That's interesting.
   2471. rr Posted: October 01, 2012 at 04:41 PM (#4250261)
Only took all offseason for no other apparent reason that Reinsdorf's cheapness.

Bradford Doolittle, a Chicago fan, was pretty negative as well in a recent piece at BaskPro.

Abbott on Bynum and the procedure:

•Andrew Bynum will sit three weeks after getting the German knee procedure Kobe Bryant got last summer, and it's easy to get that "here we go again" feeling that has hung over both the Sixers and Bynum for years. For what it's worth, Bryant looked uncomfortable last summer at a Players Association press conference, when he was recovering from his own version of it. However, Bryant went on to have a remarkably spry season, given his position and age.
   2472. Moses Taylor Posted: October 01, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4250267)
•Andrew Bynum will sit three weeks after getting the German knee procedure Kobe Bryant got last summer, and it's easy to get that "here we go again" feeling that has hung over both the Sixers and Bynum for years. For what it's worth, Bryant looked uncomfortable last summer at a Players Association press conference, when he was recovering from his own version of it. However, Bryant went on to have a remarkably spry season, given his position and age.

I think you cut off the end of the last sentence: "and selfishness."
   2473. rr Posted: October 01, 2012 at 06:08 PM (#4250332)
"and selfishness."


Heh. Plenty of that is coming. With James' having quieted his critics, at least for now, and with Howard's having at last been traded, Bryant and the Lakers will be the most scrutinized player and team in the league from a media/blogosphere POV again this season.

Questions for Moses and other Chicago fans: are you down on Reinsdorf in a big way? Or is this just a bump in the road? Doolittle, as I said, was pretty negative.
   2474. andrewberg Posted: October 01, 2012 at 06:23 PM (#4250345)
I should probably already know this, but if I buy the digital BaskPro book, can I get a spreadsheet of the SCHOENE projections? If not, how do I acquire that?
   2475. kpelton Posted: October 01, 2012 at 06:28 PM (#4250348)
We've sold them separately. The book will include projections as of the time we go to print, but those won't be updated or give you the choice of 10-team/12-team league rankings.
   2476. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: October 01, 2012 at 06:34 PM (#4250352)
Over/under on combined games played by Nash and Grant Hill this season? I'll put it at 125.
   2477. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: October 01, 2012 at 08:16 PM (#4250459)
What % of xls buyers would you guess don't care about the fantasy stuff, Kevin? Just curious...

On a sort of related note, all of the Hollinger stuff is out now (ahead of schedule?)
   2478. kpelton Posted: October 02, 2012 at 12:14 AM (#4250632)
Good question. I only know if they email me to that effect (or post so here?), but I'd guess between 15-25 percent.
   2479. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: October 02, 2012 at 12:02 PM (#4251001)
Thanks, Kevin. (clearly, I'm one of those people)
   2480. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: October 05, 2012 at 06:35 PM (#4255621)
Celtics lost a close one to Fenerbahçe Ülker today in their first preseason game. Some takeaways:

Jeff Green looked amazing in the fourth, taking over in a lineup that surrounded him with rookies. The Celtics booth was comparing him to James Worthy, and while that's equal parts partisan hyperbole and preseason hype, he honestly looked the part. He made about 3 baskets in a row down the stretch driving hard to the right, elevating and finishing soft around FBU's center off the glass, along with some strong put-back dunks and jumpers. That said, while Fenerbahçe's bigs were very skilled, they weren't nearly NBA-caliber athletes. I wouldn't put much predictive value on this performance alone, but it was a great sign.

Jared Sullinger is a smart, smart player, with a nose for (especially offensive) rebounds. Great positioning, and really clean technique to get layups on the glass quickly despite his lack of size. He wasn't very useful guarding legit 7-footers one-on-one, but he looks like he'll be a rotation player all season and like he'll learn the NBA game quickly.

Darko was very, very physically large, and rebounded and passed well. He'll be among the better back-up bigs in the league; no more, but a big, big upgrade over injured Stiemsma and Ryan ####### Hollins. Fab Melo had some highlight blocks and some strong rebounds, but was a net negative. Lots of talent and nowhere near ready.

Courtney Lee shot terribly, but had a quick trigger on the break and ran hard. He, Green, and Rondo all seemed committed to busting their asses on the break, which is a lovely change of pace from the last several seasons.

The team as a whole had some pretty miserable pick and roll coverage-- Bo McCalebb looked like Derek Rose-- and lots of dumb turnovers.
   2481. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: October 05, 2012 at 06:54 PM (#4255667)
I realize that's way more detail than most folks here care about from a C's game that wasn't even against an NBA opponent, but I'm just excited to see NBA players on my TV again.
   2482. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: October 05, 2012 at 08:31 PM (#4256004)
Au contraire. Preseason ball is back!
   2483. Maxwn Posted: October 05, 2012 at 09:37 PM (#4256151)
After the way the Braves just got knocked out, I'm ready to get back to a sport with good clean honest officiating like the NBA.
   2484. Famous Original Joe C Posted: October 05, 2012 at 09:56 PM (#4256167)
Guys: New Thread
   2485. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: October 11, 2012 at 08:11 PM (#4264838)
D.J. Foster ?@fosterdj
Lamar Odom is in truly awful shape. That's much, much more disconcerting than anything else seen this preseason so far.


   2486. Quaker Posted: October 11, 2012 at 11:48 PM (#4265483)
New thread, homey.

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/newsstand/discussion/nba_monthly_thread_october_2012/ 
   2487. steagles Posted: October 25, 2012 at 02:38 PM (#4283141)
..
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