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Monday, July 02, 2012

OT: NBA basketball July Thread 2012

I estimate that only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what the site is really about: Jim Furtado trolling his own site when he’s bored.

Tripon Posted: July 02, 2012 at 04:21 PM | 2487 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball

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   301. Joel W Posted: July 06, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4174663)
Brandon Roy seems like a player you have sit for the first 50 games and hope you can make the playoffs without him playing those 50 games. Then work him into shape and hope you make a playoff run with him at 80% of his old self.
   302. GregD Posted: July 06, 2012 at 02:37 PM (#4174778)
Is there some twitter rumor about Dwight Howard/Nets coming closer to fruition? Suddenly a buzz where I'm at in the city but can't figure out what, if anything, started it.
   303. Booey Posted: July 06, 2012 at 02:48 PM (#4174794)
Brandon Roy seems like a player you have sit for the first 50 games and hope you can make the playoffs without him playing those 50 games. Then work him into shape and hope you make a playoff run with him at 80% of his old self.


Minnesota is no lock to even make the playoffs, so they need to just play Roy whenever he's able and hope for the best.
   304. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 06, 2012 at 02:52 PM (#4174799)
302: Probably just James White fever. (to nyk)
   305. GregD Posted: July 06, 2012 at 02:54 PM (#4174803)
302: Probably just James White fever. (to nyk)
I'm wearing my "David Lee Bribed the Slovenian Judge" T-Shirt right now!
   306. Joel W Posted: July 06, 2012 at 03:29 PM (#4174830)
Nothing on Twitter that I have seen, but Woj has been silent for a few hours, and that is the scariest Woj.
   307. andrewberg Posted: July 06, 2012 at 03:51 PM (#4174853)
306- trying to find a way to show that the Roy and batum deals are proof that Kahn is wasteful, immoral, and has lost control of the team.
   308. The District Attorney Posted: July 06, 2012 at 04:05 PM (#4174861)
Probably just James White fever.
Roy screws up the Wolves' own "white fever", BTW.
   309. Jimmy P Posted: July 06, 2012 at 04:10 PM (#4174864)
306- trying to find a way to show that the Roy and batum deals are proof that Kahn is wasteful, immoral, and has lost control of the team.


The Batum deal is crazy. Zack Lowe pointed out that this new contract would pay him more than Josh Smith made last year. I just don't see how that's justifiable
   310. Joel W Posted: July 06, 2012 at 04:13 PM (#4174866)
With restricted free agents isn't it in the collective best interest of every team to offer the most that you think the player's current team will match? Obviously you don't want to get stuck holding the bag.
   311. Jimmy P Posted: July 06, 2012 at 04:17 PM (#4174871)
With restricted free agents isn't it in the collective best interest of every team to offer the most that you think the player's current team will match? Obviously you don't want to get stuck holding the bag.

Yes, but where's that line?

It's definitely in the rights holding team's best interest to wait and match any offer the guy receives instead of offering something else up.
   312. andrewberg Posted: July 06, 2012 at 04:28 PM (#4174874)
I think batum is worth less than $11m pa but I also think he can be the third best player on a 50+ win wolves team and that it will be hard to get someone as good at or below market a the team improves. Williams improving is the only obvious alternative.
   313. thok Posted: July 06, 2012 at 04:41 PM (#4174882)
Lowe hit on a key thing today, though: the issue with the Lakers, along with the obvious age and depth stuff, will probably be defense, not offense--assuming they do not get Howard.


Honestly, the best case scenario is that Bryant drops his usage to the 25-27 range (or possibly lower) and also decides use the extra energy he gets from not forcing the offense to shut down every wing in the league.

If that happens, the Lakers win the NBA title. I'm not convinced it will.
   314. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 06, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4174898)
Roy screws up the Wolves' own "white fever", BTW.

They just traded for Chase Budinger ... we could still see a Rubio-Ridnour-Budinger-Love-(Milicic/Pekovic/Miller) lineup out there sometimes.

And Robbie Hummel!
   315. rr Posted: July 06, 2012 at 05:51 PM (#4174924)
Honestly, the best case scenario is that Bryant drops his usage to the 25-27 range (or possibly lower) and also decides use the extra energy he gets from not forcing the offense to shut down every wing in the league.

If that happens, the Lakers win the NBA title. I'm not convinced it will.


Nah. This is the problem with Hater "analysis"--too much focus on Bryant, too much power handed to Bryant, ignoring the rest of the team, setting up success/failure scenarios based on personal perceptions of what Bryant is and what he should and should not be doing. That is the exact same thing McPherson did. You could just as easily say that "Bynum needs to expend more energy on D and tighten the Lakers' interior defense instead of worrying about how many touches he gets all the time" or "MWP needs to totally forget about ever getting any touches sharing a lineup with four all-stars and show up to camp in shape and stay out of trouble, since the team will struggle to get stops" or "Pau and Bynum need to do a better job of running the floor with their lead feet now that Nash is there" or "Kupchak and Buss need to make sure they acquire a couple of decent bench players and/or Brown needs to use and develop those players into decent 10-15 MPG guys, and/or use 1 or 2 of the Lakers' younger guys in the rotation, since the Lakers are too old to ride their starters as hard as they did last year and will need every bit of energy they have in the playoffs."

Also, Bryant will be 34 in August, and has an enormous amount of mileage on his legs, as well as damaged hands. Even if he wanted to, he couldn't be a serious shutdown defender anymore.

Bryant's issues as a player--sometimes forcing jumpers in ISO, and playing too much "centerfield" on defense and losing his man--do clearly at times negatively impact the Lakers. But it's OK if he shoots a lot, as long as he is getting mostly quality looks, and his game is just part of the larger picture of the team.
   316. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: July 06, 2012 at 06:02 PM (#4174932)
This is the problem with Hater "analysis"--too much focus on Bryant, too much power handed to Bryant, ignoring the rest of the team


This. As obnoxious as I sometimes find the capitalized Hater rhetorical move (mainly because it conflates all Kobe dislike with the worst of it), this is absolutely right. I think it's safe to say that the 2012-2013 Lakers will not have optimized usage rates, and I think it's safe to say that, barring injuries, they'll be extremely ####### good at winning basketball games.

I mean, even if this hypothetical Kobe totally negates Nash's playmaking ability by ballhogging, which is absurd, they just upgraded to a 50-40-90 shooter.
   317. nick swisher hygiene Posted: July 06, 2012 at 07:46 PM (#4175058)
thought experiment: let's just imagine we live in an alternate universe where the Lakers employ an aging-but-still-borderline-all-star-level wing player who shoots a little too much called "Bryant Kobee."

now, a 34-yr-old borderline-all-star wing player is a nice thing to have, even if he does shoot a little too much; but what would it take to get analysts to think the whole team's fate hinges on the psyche of one Bryant Kobee?
   318. rr Posted: July 06, 2012 at 07:58 PM (#4175086)
ESPNChrisPalmer chris palmer
Strange hearing Kobe say he's happy for someone else (LeBron) to win a title.


Reports are that Ray Allen is "torn" about signing in Miami or returning to Boston. Makes sense.
   319. thok Posted: July 06, 2012 at 07:58 PM (#4175088)
I mean, even if this hypothetical Kobe totally negates Nash's playmaking ability by ballhogging, which is absurd, they just upgraded to a 50-40-90 shooter.


Which means that without some sort of usage change, the Lakers make one more shot a game on average. That's not enough to move them to elite level on offense.

I figure the Lakers to be a 52-54 win team next year in any scenario. The problem is there are three teams in the league that are 55-60 win teams (OKC, SA, and Miami) and I don't see the Lakers at that level yet.

Edit: I'll add that I mostly don't care about Bryant's or Nash's ego in this scenario. I just believe that the Lakers are mostly topped out on offense, and their improvement has to come on the defensive side.
   320. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: July 06, 2012 at 08:37 PM (#4175136)
Allen would seem to make perfect sense for Miami, just in terms of fitting into the flow of their offense. Just stick him in the corner and have him drain the open threes LeBron creates with his drives.

Would Allen be a starter for the Heat or an over-qualified bench guy? I was trying to figure out how Allen as a starter for Miami would work. Chalmers-Allen-Wade in the back court as a three-guard lineup with LeBron at the four and Bosh at five? Wade and Allen as the starting back court with LeBron doing his "point forward or whatever the #### he wants because he's LeBron ####### James" thing?
   321. tshipman Posted: July 06, 2012 at 08:49 PM (#4175149)
The problem is there are three teams in the league that are 55-60 win teams (OKC, SA, and Miami) and I don't see the Lakers at that level yet.


I've been wrong about SA quite a few times, but I don't think you can just pencil them in at 55-60 wins. They're quite a bit older and Parker had a serious eye injury.

thought experiment: let's just imagine we live in an alternate universe where the Lakers employ an aging-but-still-borderline-all-star-level wing player who shoots a little too much called "Bryant Kobee."


Ugh. I hate people overrating Kobe, but "borderline all-star"? At worst, he's the 3rd best shooting guard in the league.
   322. rr Posted: July 06, 2012 at 08:54 PM (#4175152)
Don't know if people want to talk about Team USA, but a little buzz today about James playing some 5. Howard, Bosh, of course are not there.
   323. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 06, 2012 at 09:21 PM (#4175174)
Ugh. I hate people overrating Kobe, but "borderline all-star"? At worst, he's the 3rd best shooting guard in the league.
Last year, there was only two guards who:

- Total Rebound pct over 5
- Assist pct over 20
- Played 2000 minutes
- Scored more than 20 PPG

One of these talented, durable, productive guys was Russell Westbrook. You can guess who the other one is.
   324. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 06, 2012 at 10:02 PM (#4175210)
Ray Allen to the Heat.
   325. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 06, 2012 at 10:02 PM (#4175211)
Coke to the NJ.
   326. rr Posted: July 06, 2012 at 10:14 PM (#4175229)
Here is Lowe on the Lakers' offense:

They will be fascinating to watch on offense. The Lakers have four mammoth stars, and regardless of who the fifth starter is and how awkwardly some parts might mesh, this should be a top-five offense from the minute it takes the floor. The Lakers were an inconsistent offensive team last season, but they took off after the Ramon Sessions deal (how’s that look now, by the way?) and finished a strong 10th overall in points per possession. A finish outside the top five next season would mean that either one of those four stars suffered a long-term injury or that the players and coaching staff suffered a near-complete failure in integrating the roster.


For all the crap Sessions took, his regular-season numbers in LA were actually pretty good. But other than his 2012 3p shooting, which was probably an outlier, he is still not Nash in terms of shooting, passing, and handle.

Like I said, Bryant's USG probably needs to go down a bit, and I think he probably will do that. But the problem with the "One basket a game" thing is that basketball is not really linear. Bryant might have a 34 USG but with higher efficiency, due to the presence of Nash, doing things that Sessions could not do. That also goes for Bynum and Gasol. It might not work that way, of course, but Nash is a truly great offensive player. It seems unlikely that his presence will not improve the Lakers offense, no matter what kind of guy Bryant Kobee is.

As to the defense, they do need to improve, but that is more likely to come from adding a cheap guy who can D up a little on the wings, or from Bynum, than it is from Bryant.
   327. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 06, 2012 at 10:41 PM (#4175249)
Sessions:
Before the '11-12 regular season: 13-71, 18% from three
After (playoffs): 4-25, 16%
During: 43-97, 44%

As for a guy who can D on the wings - heck yeah you need a cheap D and 3s guy. Granted, they're not so cheap anymore if they're that good.
LAL's looking at Meeks, right? Pretty good at the threes and a plus defender, though not the kind of stopper you want - nor can you slide him to the three.
   328. rr Posted: July 06, 2012 at 11:13 PM (#4175279)
Ray Allen has joined Miami.
   329. rr Posted: July 07, 2012 at 12:35 AM (#4175301)
Larry Coon Tweeted that he heard some "buzz" about Howard, but thinks it's a "false alarm."
   330. rr Posted: July 07, 2012 at 01:10 AM (#4175308)
So, if the Howard deal goes through, here is ABC/ESPN's Dec 25 schedule:


Brooklyn at Orlando
Clippers vs. Lakers
Miami at Boston
Oklahoma City at San Antonio
   331. PJ Martinez Posted: July 07, 2012 at 01:15 AM (#4175310)
Brooklyn at New York, surely.
   332. rr Posted: July 07, 2012 at 02:32 AM (#4175320)
Brooklyn at New York, surely.


Yeah...depends on how many games they show. If Howard is traded, his first game back in ORL will be a big deal, so if that happens before Christmas, then it will probably be BKN at NY.

Sure is a lot of contradictory crap people say that they have heard about Howard: back is Ok; back is F'd. Trade imminent; trade not likely until Dec or Jan. ORL wants Bynum; ORL doesn't want Bynum. ORL ready to go ahead and do BKN deal; ORL doesn't like BKN deal. I have seen all of those in the last 72 hours or so. ORL fans must be really sick of the whole thing, and I am sure have been so for awhile.
   333. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: July 07, 2012 at 02:54 AM (#4175324)
Why Brooklyn at New York and not the other way around? Show off the new arena. Or are they worried there'll be too many Knicks fans there?
   334. rr Posted: July 07, 2012 at 02:57 AM (#4175325)
MSG is sort of a traditional site for Christmas games--there have been many there. But I am just guessing; for all I know one of the 12/25 games will be the Clippers at Brooklyn.
   335. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 07, 2012 at 08:18 AM (#4175340)
It just hit me that the Timberwolves are paying Roy 2 years 10 million. For whatever reason, I assumed it was a minimum contract deal. What the ####? Who were they bidding against? Why not just sign Courtney Lee instead? For that matter, why isn't Lee getting more attention?
   336. GregD Posted: July 07, 2012 at 01:05 PM (#4175531)
No real surprise but Deron says he was ready to sign with Dallas until the Joe Johnson trade happened. Daily News
"I was really close to going to Dallas," Williams said at Team USA training camp. "I actually thought that's where I was going to go. I had the meetings and it kind of changed my mind because once I got out of the meeting with Dallas and saw the way they way were going and the team they were putting out there and I saw that we just made a trade for Joe Johnson and I felt like that team for a longer time would be the better team.

"Joe got me over the hump," Williams continued. "I've never played with anybody like him, a guy on the wing that can get his own shot and also get me involved and is a great defender. We could one of the top backcourts in the NBA for sure."
   337. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: July 07, 2012 at 01:38 PM (#4175549)

Why Brooklyn at New York and not the other way around? Show off the new arena. Or are they worried there'll be too many Knicks fans there?
 


What Robinred said. Also, MSG is in the midst of a pretty massive renovation of its own. Think the mid-70's Yankee Stadium gut reno.
   338. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: July 07, 2012 at 02:14 PM (#4175579)
Apparently if howard doesnt get traded he is threatening legal action, how is that even possible?
   339. GregD Posted: July 07, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4175593)
Apparently if howard doesnt get traded he is threatening legal action, how is that even possible?
is that even legal?
   340. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 07, 2012 at 04:00 PM (#4175650)
Roy had other suitors, GSW for one. And, if 90% healthy, the deal's a steal. Also, he can create offense (as others have said upthread), Lee is more of an outlet type.

So, the deal is understandable to me, particular for a GM in a position where he ought to take a risk beyond asset collection - I don't think it's one I'd've done though.
   341. rr Posted: July 07, 2012 at 04:23 PM (#4175655)
Kahn may know something we don't, but I agree with NJ. I think I would rather have a younger guy with a cleaner health record, even if he has less basketball skill. I don't think Minnesota is at a point in terms of where they fit into the competitive ecology of the conference (yet--they have a good shot to get there if Rubio is eventually OK) where the Roy gamble works for them. I also don't like that it is two years; one year makes more sense to me with Roy. There is probably some type of buyout option, I suppose, but this is a guy whose career seemed to be over.
   342. AROM, Instagram Gangsta Posted: July 07, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4175660)
"Joe got me over the hump," Williams continued. "I've never played with anybody like him, a guy on the wing that can get his own shot and also get me involved and is a great defender. We could one of the top backcourts in the NBA for sure."

I think both Williams and Johnson are overrated. But I could be wrong. If they really are that good then the Nets should be a playoff team, maybe a 4-6 seed. We'll see.
   343. baudib Posted: July 07, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4175680)
Brandon Roy was on the way to becoming a special player, maybe on the level of a Drexler. There's also some evidence to support the fact that he was the best CLOSER in the game when he was healthy. It's unlikely he'll ever be the same, but it could be worth a gamble.

I think Pelton had some numbers that showed Nash wasn't terrible on defense as recently as a few years ago. So even if he's regressed, which he probably has, maybe he won't kill you on defense. He does look like a sieve to me though. Of course, he's still an efficient offensive player, one of the best of all time at his peak.

   344. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 07, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4175686)
I *think* yr 2 of the Roy deal is a t-opt
   345. rr Posted: July 07, 2012 at 07:05 PM (#4175727)
ESPN saying that Griffin, Harden, and Iguodala get the last three slots on the Olympic team:

1 Paul Williams Westbrook
2 Bryant Harden
3 James Durant Anthony Iguodala
4 Love Griffin
5 Chandler
   346. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 07, 2012 at 07:26 PM (#4175746)
Just one center? I'm sure either Love or Lebron could play there, but I'd like one more big rather than Harden.
   347. GregD Posted: July 07, 2012 at 07:28 PM (#4175749)
Iguodala
Why?
   348. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 07, 2012 at 07:36 PM (#4175759)
Roy had other suitors, GSW for one. And, if 90% healthy, the deal's a steal. Also, he can create offense (as others have said upthread), Lee is more of an outlet type.

Is there any reason whatsoever to believe it is medically possible for Brandon Roy to be even 50% healthy? Serious question. This is a guy who RETIRED. Whose injuries were so bad the Blazers gave up. The Blazers. Who had approximately 1 good game (1 quarter really) in his last year of playing before retiring...and you give him a 2 year deal...for 5 million a year. That is absolutely insane IMO.
   349. thok Posted: July 07, 2012 at 07:44 PM (#4175767)
Just one center? I'm sure either Love or Lebron could play there, but I'd like one more big rather than Harden.


Howard and Bosh are injured, and the next few choices aren't eligible to play for the US (Hibbert played for the Jamaican national team. Marc Gasol is Spanish. Joakim Noah is French.)

The US won the world championship mostly playing Lamar Odom at center (with some Kevin Love; Chandler didn't play much.) They'll be fine, even if they have to do weird things like play Lebron or Griffin at center.
   350. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: July 07, 2012 at 07:46 PM (#4175770)
I'll miss Basketball Jesus. The last 5 years was pretty awesome as a Celtics fan, which is 2 more years than I thought I'd be able to say that about.
   351. JJ1986 Posted: July 07, 2012 at 07:50 PM (#4175775)
the next few choices aren't eligible to play for the US


Bynum is.
   352. thok Posted: July 07, 2012 at 07:56 PM (#4175780)
   353. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 07, 2012 at 07:58 PM (#4175782)
The last 5 years was pretty awesome as a Celtics fan, which is 2 more years than I thought I'd be able to say that about.
What do Cs fans think about the reported rift between Ray and Ainge and between Ray and Rondo that ended up putting Allen in Miami?
   354. steagles Posted: July 07, 2012 at 08:03 PM (#4175785)
Iguodala
Why?
he's athletic, he's a hell of a defender, he can create shots for other players, and at least last season, he was a pretty solid 3P shooter. he's a nifty player to have around.

Just one center? I'm sure either Love or Lebron could play there, but I'd like one more big rather than Harden.
yeah, the roster construction is a bit of a question, but who else could they have brought in? bosh and howard are injured, and odom fell off a cliff. maybe it would be nice to have bynum or monroe or hibbert or jefferson, but none of those guys have experience playing for the national team, and of those names, only bynum is really a gamechanging type of talent.


i wonder how they plan on matching up against spain. pau and marc are a hell of a load on the inside for them, and chandler can only guard 1 gasol at a time.

this could be very interesting.
   355. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: July 07, 2012 at 08:11 PM (#4175790)
What do Cs fans think about the reported rift between Ray and Ainge and between Ray and Rondo that ended up putting Allen in Miami?


I can't speak as more than a fairly casual fan, so I don't have much more to say other than what I've read recently but it makes sense to me that there'd be friction in at least the former situation. Allen lost his starting role to Avery Bradley, which can never be fun as an aging HoF player. Whatever static there was between Rondo and Ray probably just made the deal easier. I guess on the radio that some people are taking this as Allen betraying Boston, but there's idiot sports radio fans everywhere. I wish him the best, and will try to forget that he's on the Heat because I'm not sure how I'm going to bring myself to root against him. I loved Allen since he was at Connecticut, his late career reprise with the Celtics was awesome and brought home a title, and I wish him the best.
   356. The District Attorney Posted: July 07, 2012 at 08:29 PM (#4175800)
It certainly narrows down the big man options just a tiny bit to have Howard, Bosh, Bynum, Aldridge and A. Davis all out. (They seem to have eliminated Odom just on the basis of being a flake.) Maybe Josh Smith... or how about Tim Duncan? Hell, you could make a case for some other old guys (Garnett, Pierce) too. There are surprisingly few "experienced players"/"familiar faces" on the squad other than Kobe Bryant, a preening ballhog who can only lead his teammates into the maw of doom.

Ray Allen should be fine if you just need him to stand there and shoot 3's as the Heat do, but for what the Celts require, they're much better off with Jason Terry. I can't see regretting Allen's departure for anything other than sentimental reasons.
   357. thok Posted: July 07, 2012 at 08:32 PM (#4175801)
i wonder how they plan on matching up against spain.


By forcing Jose Calderon to turn the ball over early and often. There aren't a lot of NBA caliber point guards outside of the US's roster.
   358. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 07, 2012 at 08:41 PM (#4175806)
There are surprisingly few "experienced players"/"familiar faces" on the squad other than Kobe Bryant, a preening ballhog who can only lead his teammates into the maw of doom.
So true. Besides five NBA titles and Olympic gold, what has that guy ever won?
   359. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: July 07, 2012 at 09:18 PM (#4175833)
So true. Besides five NBA titles and Olympic gold, what has that guy ever won?

A sexual assault trial.
   360. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 07, 2012 at 09:21 PM (#4175840)
Couldn't help yourself, could you.
   361. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 07, 2012 at 09:32 PM (#4175848)
I saw some comments regarding the value of Ryan Anderson on a Magic message board that were comical (maybe 6 million, read one) and got to wondering - who are the most underrated players in the league by their own fanbases?
   362. JJ1986 Posted: July 07, 2012 at 09:42 PM (#4175860)
I think Boozer is probably significantly underrated by a fanbase that wants him amnesty'd.
   363. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: July 07, 2012 at 09:51 PM (#4175870)
Couldn't help yourself, could you.

Neither could Kobe.
   364. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: July 07, 2012 at 10:47 PM (#4175918)
the reported rift between Ray and Ainge and between Ray and Rondo that ended up putting Allen in Miami


Honestly, I don't think you can really say that it was the rifts between Ray and the franchise that led to his decision: it just makes too much basketball sense on its own. It certainly seems that there are reasons Ray might feel some emotional gratification cutting ties with the Celtics, but his game fits perfectly with the Heat, and theirs with him. Remember how wide open Battier and Miller got all the dang time? He gets a chance to be Steve Kerr for a few seasons. And, while the Celtics match up better than most with the Heat, last season relied on a throwback season from KG, which becomes increasingly unlikely each season, while LeBron seems to have just hit his stride. Would anyone be surprised to see Ray get two more rings on this contract? That alone is reason enough, seems to me.

As a fan, though, it's a bit of a gut punch.
   365. kpelton Posted: July 07, 2012 at 11:18 PM (#4175937)
who are the most underrated players in the league by their own fanbases?

Iguodala?
   366. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 08, 2012 at 12:06 AM (#4175953)
Neither could Kobe.
He won the trial. #Winning.
   367. Tripon Posted: July 08, 2012 at 12:18 AM (#4175961)
Not to be pedantic, but Kobe won without it even going to trial.
   368. Booey Posted: July 08, 2012 at 01:06 AM (#4175970)
He won the trial. #Winning.


Wasn't the civil case settled out of court? If he ended up paying her, I'm not sure if that counts as winning...
   369. smileyy Posted: July 08, 2012 at 01:53 AM (#4175977)
We all lose for not hearing the Trinity explained in a court of law.
   370. Manny Coon Posted: July 08, 2012 at 02:26 AM (#4175981)
I think with the Olympic roster Griffin and Love will both end up being mostly centers, while Lebron and Durant get most of the minutes at PF.
   371. Tripon Posted: July 08, 2012 at 02:41 AM (#4175984)

Wasn't the civil case settled out of court? If he ended up paying her, I'm not sure if that counts as winning...


Kobe paid $5 million to his accuser to settle, and another $5 million to his wife. (In the form of a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery expensive diamond ring) to get her forgiveness. And he still ended up winning considering that he's playing basketball at a very high level instead of potentially serving jail time and being the next Mike Tyson.
   372. rr Posted: July 08, 2012 at 03:40 AM (#4175985)
who are the most underrated players in the league by their own fanbases?


This is obviously a subjective question, but a lot of Lakers fans give Pau too much crap and don't appreciate him. It was that way with Odom as well. My guess is that every fanbase has a guy like that.

As to the Team USA roster, Bynum is getting the same thing done to his knee that Bryant got done to his, and also Krzyzewski likes mobile big men for international play. As I said upthread, there is buzz about James playing some 5. Bryant mentioned this in an interview and I have seen it elsewhere.
   373. rr Posted: July 08, 2012 at 04:50 AM (#4175986)
pau and marc are a hell of a load on the inside for them, and chandler can only guard 1 gasol at a time.


Serge Ibaka plays for Spain as well. It is likely that 4 of OKC's five starters will play in the Gold Medal game
   374. thok Posted: July 08, 2012 at 07:27 AM (#4175993)
My guess is that every fanbase has a guy like that.


Isn't the technical name for that guy "Chris Bosh"?
   375. PJ Martinez Posted: July 08, 2012 at 10:03 AM (#4176023)
Rondo is that guy on the Celtics.* His scapegoat status finally faded over the last month or two of this past season and during the playoffs, since he was so frequently spectacular. But I wonder if it will return now that Ray Allen reportedly left in part because they couldn't get along.**

* At least among pretty smart diehard fans who spend a lot of time on the internet. Don't know what the more general mood among fans is or how he's treated on Boston sports radio.

** I suspect Miami's much greater odds at winning another championship, plus some assurances from Riley that they weren't going to sign him and then turn around and send him elsewhere, is what really sealed the deal. But the Rondo rift certainly could have been a factor.
   376. JJ1986 Posted: July 08, 2012 at 10:27 AM (#4176035)
Jeff Green is getting 4 years/$36 million. That seems like a contract that will be immediately regretted.
   377. PJ Martinez Posted: July 08, 2012 at 10:32 AM (#4176036)
I regret it, at least.

Meanwhile, Hollinger on Twitter: "Bulls apparently using taxpayer MLE on Hinrich, via @KCJHoop report, which is sign they likely keep Korver and may even match Asik." Seems like good news for Bulls fans, yes?
   378. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: July 08, 2012 at 10:44 AM (#4176039)
At least based upon my friends and family, Rondo is beloved. Dunno how that meshes with the overall sense of him.
   379. AROM, Instagram Gangsta Posted: July 08, 2012 at 11:42 AM (#4176062)
"Jeff Green is getting 4 years/$36 million. That seems like a contract that will be immediately regretted."

I really don't understand a world where Jeff Green's annual value is that close to Kevin Garnett's. Green should be paying 5 mil of that to Garnett to keep the universe in balance. Seems a lot of money to give to a guy who a) has serious medical questions b) is just sort of OK and c) it's hard to see him getting huge minutes with Bass resigned and Sullinger drafted.
   380. AROM, Instagram Gangsta Posted: July 08, 2012 at 11:44 AM (#4176063)
Rondo is highly regarded in my old city, Louisville. I have a friend who is his neighbor there. My friend has a small condo, Rondo has the building's penthouse.
   381. tshipman Posted: July 08, 2012 at 11:47 AM (#4176067)
"Jeff Green is getting 4 years/$36 million. That seems like a contract that will be immediately regretted."


That's only around 3 years and 34 million too much.
   382. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: July 08, 2012 at 11:48 AM (#4176069)
36 million for Jeff Green is crazy sauce. Is there an argument that he's even an average player? His agent must be amazing.
   383. PJ Martinez Posted: July 08, 2012 at 12:38 PM (#4176100)
Well, that figure is still merely from one source, though it's a source quoted pretty confidently in the Boston Herald. Take that for what it's worth.

I hope the actual $$$ is less, though it will still probably be more than people around here (including me) think is warranted. Green was a #5 pick seen (perhaps incorrectly) as a contributor to a good young team in OKC, where he spent a lot of time out of position (at the 4 instead of the 3). It's possible Ainge thinks he hasn't been great so far (which would be good, since he hasn't been) but that he will improve over the next couple years if used correctly. Can't say I see it, and I don't like my favorite team throwing that much money at hope, but it's what I'm clinging to at this point (along with the idea that maybe the Herald is overstating the $$$).
   384. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 08, 2012 at 12:45 PM (#4176103)
But even if it's possible that Jeff Green is a good player, I think we can be confident there were no bidders for him in the 3/20 range, let alone 4/40. If Ainge has Green correctly judged, even in the best-case scenario, he's failed at acquiring an undervalued asset because he's spending so damn much money over the guy's market value.
   385. PJ Martinez Posted: July 08, 2012 at 01:27 PM (#4176127)
I think we can be confident there were no bidders for him in the 3/20 range

Can we really be confident of that? Look at the deals being handed out this offseason. I'd be surprised if there weren't bidders for him in the 3/20 range.

You're right, of course, that he is in no way an "undervalued asset" -- whatever the final terms turn out to be (I still suspect 4/36 is overstating things), he will be getting paid at least his market value (and quite possibly more). The question really is whether he's an asset at all. There's a decent argument that he is not, not if he gets paid anything close to those numbers. I'm hoping that turns out to be wrong, but I'm not terribly optimistic.
   386. tshipman Posted: July 08, 2012 at 01:31 PM (#4176131)
But even if it's possible that Jeff Green is a good player, I think we can be confident there were no bidders for him in the 3/20 range, let alone 4/40. If Ainge has Green correctly judged, even in the best-case scenario, he's failed at acquiring an undervalued asset because he's spending so damn much money over the guy's market value.


Jeff Green is basically a worse version of Michael Beasley. Beasley got 3 years, 18 million. I think that anything more than two years, 10 million would be a big overpay for Jeff Green. I thought 3 years, 18 million was irrational for Beasley.

If I were offering him a deal, I would not go over what I think a 10th man should get--around 2 million.
   387. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 08, 2012 at 01:42 PM (#4176148)
I think 3/18 is reasonable for Beasley, given the promise he can still deliver on - but it's hard to put a good spin on his Minnesota time.
   388. The District Attorney Posted: July 08, 2012 at 02:25 PM (#4176171)
As a fan, though, it's a bit of a gut punch.
Apparently.
   389. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: July 08, 2012 at 02:41 PM (#4176177)
[388] Burning black people's clothing. Typical Boston.
   390. PJ Martinez Posted: July 08, 2012 at 02:48 PM (#4176183)
If I were offering him a deal, I would not go over what I think a 10th man should get--around 2 million.

Right. And then he would go elsewhere. Which would be fine with you, because you really don't think that highly of his services.

In general, though, when commenting on a deal, I think it makes more sense to consider it in context of who was available to the team in question (given their cap restrictions and so forth), what the team's goals in the upcoming season were, and what one might reasonably suspect a player might have gotten from other teams.

In the case of Green and the Celtics, if he really did get 4/36, then that seems like an "overpay" on that last score for starters. I think another team might very likely have given him, say, 3/20 or so, but much more than that seems unlikely.

It might also have been a mistake purely in terms of who was available to them. Green may never be more than a so-so bench player; this is a contract you only give to someone you think can be much more than that. Maybe they should have signed Marquis Daniels or Pietrus and waited a year or so for a real impact player to possibly become available.

But saying someone is "worth," say, 2 million dollars a year, doesn't seem that helpful to me out of context. Consider what guards and forwards with a few years in the league are actually getting this offseason: Beasley (3/18), Bass (3/20), Jamal Crawford (4/25), Batum (a promising but so far unspectacular player who put up 14 and 5 last year and is getting something in the 45-50 range), Roy (a player who retired not long ago and is getting 2/10), Fields (who will get 3/20 after an admittedly unusual series of events). These guys get paid. Saying you'd only sign so-and-so for way less than they are actually going to get paid by someone is a total abstraction.
   391. PJ Martinez Posted: July 08, 2012 at 03:05 PM (#4176186)
Also George Hill: 5/40, reportedly.
   392. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 08, 2012 at 03:56 PM (#4176198)
rumor! Ryan Anderson to NO for 4/36, while Gustavo Ayon (aka one of the best contracts in the NBA) goes to ORL
dumb question... if it's likely ORL wouldn't match - why give up that good of an asset?
also, i'm going to be the only person in the world asking that question.

Also, CJ Watson to be UFA.
   393. Spivey Posted: July 08, 2012 at 03:57 PM (#4176199)
Bass and George Hill are good players though and can play starter minutes at roughly league average productivity... Batum and Crawford can too. Green has never put up those kind of numbers. And he just had a major injury, which is also the big x-factor. He was always going to be able to get paid because of his superficial numbers, but after the injury he just had I didn't expect it to be this much, and from the team that had him. You can say guys are getting overpaid, but smart teams aren't making decisions like this in my opinion.
   394. Spivey Posted: July 08, 2012 at 03:58 PM (#4176200)
Ryan Anderson is getting Jeff Green money!? Edit: Anderson seems like a great fit for Boston actually.
   395. tshipman Posted: July 08, 2012 at 04:11 PM (#4176205)
But saying someone is "worth," say, 2 million dollars a year, doesn't seem that helpful to me out of context.


I totally agree with this, but ...

Consider what guards and forwards with a few years in the league are actually getting this offseason: Beasley (3/18), Bass (3/20), Jamal Crawford (4/25), Batum (a promising but so far unspectacular player who put up 14 and 5 last year and is getting something in the 45-50 range), Roy (a player who retired not long ago and is getting 2/10), Fields (who will get 3/20 after an admittedly unusual series of events). These guys get paid.


The fact is that Green is worse than all of those guys (except maybe Fields). Green's never had a year as good as Fields' rookie year, Bass's year last year, Crawford in 2009-2010 (admittedly in the rear-view), or Beasley's career besides last year. (Batum is loads better than Green and not really comparable.) The fact of the matter is that you could have had Beasley for 3/19 (probably).

What does Green do for you? He doesn't stretch the floor. He can't go get his own shot. He can't distribute. He's not a good rebounder. He's a mediocre defender. He's stretched at the 4 defensively. He had a big injury that made him miss the whole year last year. Frankly, I am quite surprised that he got more than Roy, let alone Beasley, let alone 36 million.
   396. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 08, 2012 at 04:40 PM (#4176216)
Update from Phoenix: No rumbles of any pending sign-and-trade w/the Hornets. As opposed to Gordon running his yap, it's been very quiet from the teams.
   397. PJ Martinez Posted: July 08, 2012 at 04:42 PM (#4176217)
Generally agree with both of you guys about Green. The injury doesn't really factor into it too much for me, though; unless I read otherwise, I'm assuming they're able to insure him, and this seems like a condition that could keep him off the court completely (with the insurance kicking in), but otherwise will not affect his play.

As for Anderson: Yes, he'd be a great fit for Boston (and is obviously worth that money far more than Green is, based on their careers to date), but of course he wouldn't have been available to them, because they're over the cap, and can only offer Green the big (too big) salary because he's one of theirs. This is why the Ray Allen thing hurt, even though it seemed like time for him to go -- because they can't turn around and make a similar offer to, say, O.J. Mayo.
   398. thok Posted: July 08, 2012 at 06:36 PM (#4176253)
It looks like the last spot in the Olympic tournament is being decided tomorrow, in a game between Nigeria and Dominican Republic. Nigeria has Ike Diogu and Al-Farouq Aminu, while Dominican Republic has Al Horford and Francisco Garcia (and for some reason, Calipari, Del Harris, and Rod Stickland as coaches.)
   399. Tripon Posted: July 08, 2012 at 06:48 PM (#4176260)
Calipari is there to recruit potential high school players, while Del Harris and Stickland are there for a paycheck.
   400. AROM, Instagram Gangsta Posted: July 08, 2012 at 07:17 PM (#4176273)
I'm assuming they're able to insure him, and this seems like a condition that could keep him off the court completely (with the insurance kicking in), but otherwise will not affect his play.


I would assume they can't insure him at this point, at least not for the same condition. Insurance companies can't make money operating like that, and they are usually pretty good at knowing how to make money.
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