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Monday, July 02, 2012

OT: NBA basketball July Thread 2012

I estimate that only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what the site is really about: Jim Furtado trolling his own site when he’s bored.

Tripon Posted: July 02, 2012 at 04:21 PM | 2487 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball

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   401. The District Attorney Posted: July 08, 2012 at 07:20 PM (#4176274)
Calipari is there to recruit potential high school players, while Del Harris and Stickland are there for a paycheck.
And to make 'em jump like Rod Strickland.
   402. Tripon Posted: July 08, 2012 at 07:26 PM (#4176280)
Is jumping like Rod Strickland a good thing? I don't remember him at all.
   403. cmd600 Posted: July 08, 2012 at 07:27 PM (#4176282)
Last year, there was only two guards who:

- Total Rebound pct over 5
- Assist pct over 20
- Played 2000 minutes
- Scored more than 20 PPG

One of these talented, durable, productive guys was Russell Westbrook. You can guess who the other one is.



I LOVE these kind of stats.

First, Monta Ellis made this list too.

Chris Paul missed this by 0.2 points per game. Deron Williams missed this by all of one minute. Tony Parker missed this by 1.2 points (even though he had a higher TS%) and 77 minutes. Still great company. Joe Johnson missed this by 1.2 points (again a higher TS% than Bryant) and 0.3 in assist rate. Brandon Jennings missed this by 0.9 points. Bryant is still a very good player, but the leaps we make to put him above the likes of Paul and Williams is astounding to me.
   404. The District Attorney Posted: July 08, 2012 at 07:37 PM (#4176293)
Is jumping like Rod Strickland a good thing?
Sure.
   405. robinred Posted: July 08, 2012 at 08:08 PM (#4176310)
As DK likes to post:

Rumor!

Bleacher Report is often just BS, but the new rumor there is Cleveland will get into a Howard/Brooklyn deal as the third team and it is "close." BR says that Ken Berger/CBS says that CLE wants Humphries. Also buzz that Bynum said he would not sign an extension in ORL. As people here, know, though, and as Deron Williams said directly last year and then went on to do, that doesn't really have to mean anything, since there are advantages from the player's POV to re-signing with the old team as an FA, rather than extending while under contract.
   406. JJ1986 Posted: July 08, 2012 at 08:13 PM (#4176317)
Is Humphries + Lopez enough salary to bring in Howard or would they need to ship out Wallace too?
   407. robinred Posted: July 08, 2012 at 08:39 PM (#4176372)
Lopez and Humphries are both FAs, so that deal if it happens would involve S/Ts.
   408. GregD Posted: July 08, 2012 at 08:43 PM (#4176382)
Is Humphries + Lopez enough salary to bring in Howard or would they need to ship out Wallace too?
THey can't move Wallace, can they? One rumor is 11 players total moving plus draft picks. Who knows?
   409. JJ1986 Posted: July 08, 2012 at 08:56 PM (#4176407)
Howard's salary is $19.5m. I think that means the Magic will need to acquire at least $14.5m in return for him. MarShon Brooks is $1.2m, so if they get a TPE for around $8m for Humphires, then Lopez should easily make at least $5.3m. If the Magic want to shed Turkoglu, then Wallace will need to be involved in some way.
   410. Zipperholes Posted: July 08, 2012 at 09:04 PM (#4176417)
Also buzz that Bynum said he would not sign an extension in ORL. As people here, know, though, and as Deron Williams said directly last year and then went on to do, that doesn't really have to mean anything, since there are advantages from the player's POV to re-signing with the old team as an FA, rather than extending while under contract.
Since this is also true of Howard, why don't they just do Howard for Bynum?
   411. robinred Posted: July 08, 2012 at 09:45 PM (#4176502)
I think the Anderson deal means that they are going with a BKN deal, likely a big three-way, with some picks. If you were going for Bynum in ORL, I think Anderson is the first guy you keep. Anderson and Bynum would be slow on D, but they would make a nice 4/5 combo on the offensive end and on the D glass.
   412. tshipman Posted: July 08, 2012 at 10:10 PM (#4176549)
Yeah, looks like ORL is going for the pupu platter return.

I take back everything bad I said about Billy King if this deal works out. Williams/Howard/Wallace/Johnson is a title contender for sure.
   413. Spivey Posted: July 08, 2012 at 10:11 PM (#4176552)
Looks like Orlando is going for total tear down if the rumors are true. 3 or 4 years ago when they appeared to have a ton of useful pieces around a happy Dwight Howard... they've made a lot of wrong decisions since then.
   414. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 08, 2012 at 10:38 PM (#4176594)
I know I'm likely mistaken in saying this, but I'll believe Howard to Brooklyn when I see it. For instance, why would Cleveland help with this deal - what possible enticement could go their way?

Incidentally, wouldn't a three team deal w/ HOU/LAL/ORL possibly make sense?

**

rumor! (this way, i'm not claiming stuff if it's untrue + it's easy to see that you can ignore the post if yer so inclined)
Memphis to keep Darrell Arthur, 2 yr deal w/ an option. $ worth 9-10m, per Chris Vernon, but I don't know if that's irrespective of the option or not, or who controls the third year.
   415. robinred Posted: July 08, 2012 at 10:44 PM (#4176597)
For instance, why would Cleveland help with this deal - what possible enticement could go their way?


Dan Gilbert can help put another team in the East that could possibly get in LeBron's way?
(I am 90% kidding--but not totally).
   416. I am going to be Frank Posted: July 08, 2012 at 10:53 PM (#4176608)
How similar is Jeff Green to Marvin Williams? For some reason I think of them as the same player. Combo forwards who were high draft picks out of good basketball schools who haven't developed into anything yet.

THey can't move Wallace, can they?


Since it wasn't part of a sign-and-trade I don't think they could trade him until well into the season.
   417. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: July 08, 2012 at 10:54 PM (#4176610)
At the moment, Gold Wife and I are watching the Iron Chef America episode with Glen Davis as a judge.
   418. Zipperholes Posted: July 08, 2012 at 11:11 PM (#4176628)
For instance, why would Cleveland help with this deal - what possible enticement could go their way?
Yeah. So Cleveland would be giving up a 1st rounder and getting Humphries in a S&T? The Nets have to let Humphries go. What's the advantage of the S&T for non-max players? If he gets more than he would under a FA contract, why wouldn't the Cavs just sign him as a FA for that amount? Sure, it's not a guarantee, but it's not like teams will be lining up to sign him. And supposedly they want him in order to "stockpile" draft picks. None of it makes sense to me.
   419. PJ Martinez Posted: July 08, 2012 at 11:18 PM (#4176637)
How similar is Jeff Green to Marvin Williams? For some reason I think of them as the same player. Combo forwards who were high draft picks out of good basketball schools who haven't developed into anything yet.


Yeah, I always associate them, too. Williams rebounds a little more, shoots a little less. But they're pretty similar. (And Williams, by the way, will make 8.3 million this season as part of a 5-year deal for 37.3 million -- in other words, something in the neighorhood of what Jeff Green has supposedly signed for.)
   420. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 08, 2012 at 11:46 PM (#4176666)
At the moment, Gold Wife and I are watching the Iron Chef America episode with Glen Davis as a judge.
Glen Davis is not only a judge of food, but also jury and executioner.
   421. Spivey Posted: July 08, 2012 at 11:50 PM (#4176669)
Just because Marvin Williams is badly overpaid doesn't mean Boston should overpay Green. Also, I really don't agree with the binary outlook of Greens health, regardless of insurance. He just missed a year because of a heart condition, and was normal athletic wise before the time off. I just think the trade is awful.
   422. tshipman Posted: July 09, 2012 at 12:25 AM (#4176693)
Marvin Williams was significantly better last year than Jeff Green has ever been. The 3p% from last year is probably not legit, though.

They're both mediocre defenders. Williams has better shooting percentages and gets to the line more. He's also a better rebounder and turns the ball over less.
   423. PJ Martinez Posted: July 09, 2012 at 01:15 AM (#4176707)
Just because Marvin Williams is badly overpaid doesn't mean Boston should overpay Green.

My point is that Boston can have Green, or not have Green, but if they want him, something like this is probably what he costs. You think Boston should just not sign him, and I tend to agree. But what he's about to get will probably not be far from the going rate for a player of his age and pedigree. And if they choose not to sign him, their options for other players to add for this season, when they're clearly trying to semi-contend again, are very limited.
   424. JJ1986 Posted: July 09, 2012 at 09:34 AM (#4176827)
For instance, why would Cleveland help with this deal - what possible enticement could go their way?


Now it's being reported as Humphries and a pick to Cleveland, which is the only way it makes sense.
   425. GregD Posted: July 09, 2012 at 09:58 AM (#4176849)
If Cleveland has to spend money, I guess taking a first rounder in exchange for having Humphries for one year is worth it.

Adrian Woj saying talks are a 3-team 14-player deal with possibility of a 4th team coming in to take MarShon Brooks for a draft pick the Nets can then send. Nets taking back at least one of the terrible contracts--Hedo or Richardson.
   426. AROM Posted: July 09, 2012 at 10:32 AM (#4176875)
Trade talk like this fascinates me. I know enough about basketball's rules to follow along, but I'm an amateur at the business end.

It seems impossible to me to think the Nets have enough assets to satisfy both the Magic to get Howard, and the Cavaliers for use of their salary space to sign a player. Especially with the Stepien rule restricting what draft picks they can deal. Then somebody has to convince Kris Humphries to play along - If he has other options it's hard to see him wanting to play in Cleveland just to make Dwight Howard happy.

My point is that Boston can have Green, or not have Green, but if they want him, something like this is probably what he costs.


That may be true, but it's something I don't understand. What he costs apparently is roughly the same as what other players who are much better than he is cost. I'd rather have one 37 year old Kevin Garnett than 4 prime Jeff Greens, even if the total cost was the same, yet Green is getting slightly more money, although over an extra year.

I'd rather overpay Ray Allen 4/36 than have Green, especially since with Sullinger and Bass on the team, another PF is not a pressing need.
   427. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 09, 2012 at 10:33 AM (#4176876)
Nets taking back at least one of the terrible contracts--Hedo or Richardson.


Is that possible while keeping Wallace, Johnson, and D-Will?
   428. JJ1986 Posted: July 09, 2012 at 10:49 AM (#4176888)
Is that possible while keeping Wallace, Johnson, and D-Will?


From my calculations: Richardson, probably. Turkoglu, impossible.
   429. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 09, 2012 at 10:50 AM (#4176889)
Is that possible while keeping Wallace, Johnson, and D-Will?

It appears so. But it's got to more likely be Richardson, since his deal is for less per year (it has 2 years and a PO left on it).

It seems impossible to me to think the Nets have enough assets to satisfy both the Magic to get Howard, and the Cavaliers for use of their salary space to sign a player.

I totally agree, and that's why this is so fascinating to see it play out.

---

I wasn't around, but the Lakers deal for Nash is great for them. So was the Hornets deal for Anderson, though I also wonder if they really had to give up Ayon to keep the Magic from matching; considering the return they're likely to get for Dwight why would they want this deal on their books?

---

Meanwhile, Hollinger on Twitter: "Bulls apparently using taxpayer MLE on Hinrich, via @KCJHoop report, which is sign they likely keep Korver and may even match Asik." Seems like good news for Bulls fans, yes?

It doesn't have to be the taxpayer MLE, but it is 2yr, $6mil. It could be part of the bigger MLE. And he's the only one to speculate this, so I would still be surprised to see the Bulls match on Asik. If they did what Hollinger is guessing here, that means the Bulls are pretty happy with Rose's rehab and must think he'll be back well before the playoffs and they can compete for the title. Otherwise, there's no way they're even considering paying the tax.

And it's a damn shame if they don't make a better effort to get Courtney Lee. Hell, they could probably work with the Rockets to make the Asik deal a S&T. It's also a shame if they've picked Hinrich over Lee.
   430. Joel W Posted: July 09, 2012 at 11:02 AM (#4176901)
I'm on record thinking the Jeff Green thing is disastrous, though I'll wait and see for the guaranteed years. If the 4th year is not guaranteed, then I don't much care, because the team didn't have any money to spend in the next three years anyway, and it's not my money.

To respond to 426 a little bit, and to try to think about what somebody like Danny sees, I think the argument would go like this: he's not a power forward. I think this is what Danny sees in him. He's a small forward who was miscast in Oklahoma City and then in Boston when he got there because of positional needs. Moreover, he didn't fit in Oklahoma City because he was a lesser version of their best player. He is a 3/4 who can space the floor with a solid mid-range jump shot, can knockdown threes sometimes (I find the trend in his career threes weird, will assume the truth is probably closer to his career percentage), and he's athletic. Jeff Green provides no value in terms of spacing when he's playing with Keivn Durant. Moreover, when he played in Oklahoma City, they got destroyed defensively because the fit wasn't right, and because Ibaka and Durant still weren't that good defensively.

In Boston, he'll have value. He'll be playing with Rondo who needs some guys who can actually get out and run with him. Maybe Rondo, Bradley, and Green can spend some time together on the court and actually take advantage of Rondo's speed. If he's just playing the 3 for 15-20 minutes a game, and the 4 for another 15/20, with the right players around him, he spreads the floor, defends the correct position and makes sense.

I don't buy it all, but I certainly by that he didn't make sense in OKC.
   431. Jimmy P Posted: July 09, 2012 at 11:05 AM (#4176904)
It seems impossible to me to think the Nets have enough assets to satisfy both the Magic to get Howard, and the Cavaliers for use of their salary space to sign a player.

Hollinger noted that the Cavs can sign Humphries to a 3-year deal, but only have one of them guaranteed. It becomes worth it for Cleveland if they get a first. Especially if they're able to flip Humphries for anything at the deadline.

It's also a lot hypocritical to protest the Chris Paul trade and then take part in the Dwight Howard one.
   432. billyshears Posted: July 09, 2012 at 11:09 AM (#4176907)
Now it's being reported as Humphries and a pick to Cleveland, which is the only way it makes sense.


Sort of. But how does that help the Nets get Howard? Cleveland would have to give something up that the Nets can give to Orlando. Why would they do that if they have the cap room to just sign him outright. The only way I can see Humphries as an asset is if a capped out team wants to sign him. Either Billy King is a mad genius or a complete imbecile. The fact that they had to revise the Teletovic contract to the taxpayer MLE after it had been agreed to when they realized using the non-taxpayer MLE would kill their chances at Howard leads me to believe the latter.
   433. Jimmy P Posted: July 09, 2012 at 11:22 AM (#4176916)
Sort of. But how does that help the Nets get Howard?

Because I'm pretty sure the Nets have to dump Humphries and more to take Howard and a bad contract back. But, I also think Orlando doesn't want Humphries because they're close to the cap.

I think Cleveland's just looking to get an extra pick somewhere for taking someone's trash for a year. Not a bad deal.
   434. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: July 09, 2012 at 11:46 AM (#4176946)
Sort of. But how does that help the Nets get Howard? Cleveland would have to give something up that the Nets can give to Orlando. Why would they do that if they have the cap room to just sign him outright. The only way I can see Humphries as an asset is if a capped out team wants to sign him. Either Billy King is a mad genius or a complete imbecile. The fact that they had to revise the Teletovic contract to the taxpayer MLE after it had been agreed to when they realized using the non-taxpayer MLE would kill their chances at Howard leads me to believe the latter.


It gives the Nets a TPE to absorb Howard (or Richardson/Turk) into.

EDIT: Coke to Jimmy.
   435. billyshears Posted: July 09, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4176960)
It gives the Nets a TPE to absorb Howard (or Richardson/Turk) into.


Thanks. The NBA salary cap is weird.
   436. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 09, 2012 at 12:01 PM (#4176965)
How much do u have to pay hump to make an effectively 1 yr deal worth his while?
   437. JJ1986 Posted: July 09, 2012 at 12:02 PM (#4176966)
The Nets right now have a $3m trade exception and are using it for Reggie Evans ($1.8m). Do they get to keep the rest of the exception or does the whole thing go away?
   438. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 09, 2012 at 12:05 PM (#4176973)
The Nets right now have a $3m trade exception and are using it for Reggie Evans ($1.8m). Do they get to keep the rest of the exception or does the whole thing go away?

I think they keep it. But it can't be combined with a Humphries TPE.
   439. Jimmy P Posted: July 09, 2012 at 12:06 PM (#4176974)
How much do u have to pay hump to make an effectively 1 yr deal worth his while?


Well, it'll be a 3 year, and I'd say $7-8 per year. Sound about right? I can't imagine paying him more than that, he's a one-trick pony.

I still have my doubts this happens. Any time you get these huge trades with multiple teams and lots of players, the probability goes way down. Still think Dwight is dealt very soon, just not sure it's going to be to the Nyets.

Also buzz that Bynum said he would not sign an extension in ORL

He did say he'd sign in Cleveland, though. WTF? The guy's an immature airhead, I bet he'd sign wherever he gets the most money which is why I think Orlando should take the chance.
   440. JJ1986 Posted: July 09, 2012 at 12:19 PM (#4176995)
Okay,

I just spent about half an hour working this out. It’s probably not right, but I’m trying to maximize the salary Brooklyn can take back. Theoretically, they could:

• Trade Marshon Brooks and the remainder of the TPE to Charlotte for BJ Mullens ($2.2m).
• S&T Humprhies to Cleveland for Luke Walton ($6.1m) and Boobie Gibson ($4.8m).
• S&T Gerald Green (anywhere) for a TPE ($3m? I can’t see him getting more).
• Trade Mullens, Walton, Gibson, the TPE and Lopez to Orlando for Howard ($19.5m) and Turkoglu ($11.8m). Lopez would need to sign for around $9m.
   441. jmurph Posted: July 09, 2012 at 12:21 PM (#4176999)
So where the hell do the Mavs go from here? Are they even a playoff team next year?
   442. Jimmy P Posted: July 09, 2012 at 12:24 PM (#4177009)
So where the hell do the Mavs go from here? Are they even a playoff team next year?


This is what I've been wondering. I can't believe they aren't a playoff team, but they have to be 7 or 8. They just don't have much. I have to think that the smartest move is to just sign one year deals, let this roll until next year, and see if you can then do a trade or free agent signing. It sure sucks for Dallas, and wasting a year of Dirk here at the end is bad, but I can't see them doing anything else.
   443. smileyy Posted: July 09, 2012 at 01:46 PM (#4177087)
So where the hell do the Mavs go from here?


That kind of strikes me as the fate of an older expensive ensemble team.
   444. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 09, 2012 at 02:13 PM (#4177124)
JJ,

I don't think [440] is likely, but it's a good guess as any I've seen. I don't see why Orlando is getting saddled with Gibson and Walton. You don't have any picks included, and there's going to be a bunch (and there's a lot of who has their picks left to deal). From everything we've seen, they're trying to get Humprhies for a non-asset (or future later pick worse than what they'd have to be giving the Cavs to be involved) so they have a larger TPE to take back a contract from Orlando.
   445. andrewberg Posted: July 09, 2012 at 02:24 PM (#4177135)
Been gone for a while, going to do some catching up.

Nash: Really good work by the Lakers. The complaints about offensive overlap are dumb and misguided. If the Lakers were excited about adding Sessions because he could get guys easier looks, then getting Nash is magnitudes better in the same way. Plus, he is going to be able to get Kobe and Pau the ball in positions where they can shoot without having to expend much energy. I think that is one of the things Rondo does for Pierce and KG, and I think it will similarly benefit LA. It also makes the team's bench almost irrelevant because you can run Nash/Pau PNRs for 15 minutes, then run Kobe/Bynum inside out isos for 15 minutes, and all four guys have ample rest. There will be perimeter defensive issues, but the Lakers struggling to guard PGs is a permanent fait accompli.

Jeff Green: I know I have defended Green on here many times because I went to school with him and spent some time with him, then went to law school with his fiance. He is an incredibly nice and humble guy. That does not make him worth that contract. I am less surprised by the AAV than the years. I think Joel did a good job outlining the upside a few posts ago, but he is going to have to take big steps forward to approach that. He was an outstanding defender in college and that has not shown itself in the pros. He also had a much better iso mid range game that we haven't seen (possibly due to playing with KD). I will hope for the best.

Howard: This whole thing seems crazy. It is hard for me to believe that this Nets deal is the best one on the table, even if it is just for one year of Howard.

Love: I guess Kevin Love said in an interview that he feels left out among Team USA guys because he hasn't made the playoffs. I couldn't tell how much of it was him lashing out and how much of it was just ####-stirring by the writer (Y!, but Spears, not Woj). Like I said before, if the team is still crappy 3 years from now, it is time to blow it up anyway. If the climb up to the bottom edge of the playoffs this year, they still have enough young guys to keep improving and be pretty competitive for the last couple years of his current contract. It's a shame that the star player is kind of unhappy, but I get it and I am glad that he is fiery.
   446. JJ1986 Posted: July 09, 2012 at 02:25 PM (#4177138)
I don't think [440] is likely, but it's a good guess as any I've seen. I don't see why Orlando is getting saddled with Gibson and Walton. You don't have any picks included, and there's going to be a bunch (and there's a lot of who has their picks left to deal). From everything we've seen, they're trying to get Humprhies for a non-asset (or future later pick worse than what they'd have to be giving the Cavs to be involved) so they have a larger TPE to take back a contract from Orlando.


I left picks out because I couldn't begin to guess at them. Humphries for a TPE gets you the actual value of his contract, but if you ship him for players you can get the actual value +$5 million (I think). Reports now are that it's Richardson, not Turkoglu, though, so there shouldn't by any complex machinations required.
   447. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 09, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4177141)
Per Wojoyahoo, here's the deal as of now:

In the proposed deal, Howard, Jason Richardson and Earl Clark would be sent to Brooklyn, and the Magic would receive the Nets' Brook Lopez, Damion James, Sheldon Williams, Cleveland's Luke Walton and three future first-round picks, sources said. Cleveland would receive Orlando's Quentin Richardson, Brooklyn's Sundiata Gaines, Kris Humphries (on a one-year guaranteed deal), a first-round pick and $3 million from the Nets. Brooklyn also would send Brooks to a fourth team to get them an additional first-round pick to send to the Magic.


Couldn't Cleveland use Brooks, and won't he have more value than a first round pick from the superNets?
   448. andrewberg Posted: July 09, 2012 at 02:30 PM (#4177144)
The newest rumor(!) has ORL getting 4 first rounders (3 from NJ directly, one from a 4th team who would get Brooks), Lopez, and expiring deals. Cleveland would still absorb Hump in exchange for yet another NJ first rounder. NJ would eat Richardson and Clark contracts.

Starting to sound less insane. Kind of depends on how useful that last 1st rounder would be.
   449. JJ1986 Posted: July 09, 2012 at 02:32 PM (#4177145)
NJ would eat Richardson and Clark contracts.


Isn't Clark a free agent? Why would anyone have to eat his contract?
   450. tshipman Posted: July 09, 2012 at 02:39 PM (#4177156)
I might be wrong, but wouldn't you rather have Bynum (and have to keep Turk) than the horrible pile of crap that ORL is getting?

Those picks from the Nets are going to be awful.
   451. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: July 09, 2012 at 02:39 PM (#4177157)
I don't know how NBA fans follow all the stuff that goes into trades. It all makes MLB's trading system look childishly simple and easy to understand.
   452. andrewberg Posted: July 09, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4177164)
Isn't Clark a free agent? Why would anyone have to eat his contract?


He opted in to his contract last week.

I might be wrong, but wouldn't you rather have Bynum (and have to keep Turk) than the horrible pile of crap that ORL is getting?

Those picks from the Nets are going to be awful.


I can only assume that they're scared that Bynum will leave at the end of the year. The only other benefit to this deal would be the mystery team pick. Would anyone with room sacrifice a lotto pick for Brooks?
   453. Joel W Posted: July 09, 2012 at 02:46 PM (#4177167)
Say Orlando gets Bynum, what are they next year? A 40-45 win team with lots of crappy contracts for years on end?
   454. Jimmy P Posted: July 09, 2012 at 02:51 PM (#4177171)
Say Orlando gets Bynum, what are they next year? A 40-45 win team with lots of crappy contracts for years on end?


I'd think less than that. They're losing their best players, and while Bynum's good, I don't think he's good enough to carry JJ Redick, Hedo, and Jameer Nelson to 40 wins.

What are they if they take this deal? A little less in the hole and playing the lottery for the next five years?
   455. Zipperholes Posted: July 09, 2012 at 02:54 PM (#4177173)

I can only assume that they're scared that Bynum will leave at the end of the year.
Then they get a bunch of cap space, which is what they'll have when all these scrubs leave. Obviously, they'll have Brook Lopez though.
   456. Zipperholes Posted: July 09, 2012 at 02:56 PM (#4177178)
How do S&Ts; work for non-max players? What's the advantage for the player?
   457. andrewberg Posted: July 09, 2012 at 02:57 PM (#4177180)
What are they if they take this deal? A little less in the hole and playing the lottery for the next five years?


It should really be 1-5 years because if they hit, they aren't really worried about it after that.

Maybe these low first rounders that teams are getting should really be viewed as chips to trade up. Cleveland never quite got there, but they were repeatedly close to moving up from 4 to 2 with the 24 pick. They ended up trading lower picks to move up to 17. I am not going to say they're great assets, but they're not quite junk.

   458. Spivey Posted: July 09, 2012 at 02:57 PM (#4177182)
Bynum basically said to Orlando, "don't trade for me". When a guy with 1 year left and what has appeared to be somewhat debatable effort says that, I would not want to trade for him. This deal does suck though. Is Lopez even a useful asset at the contract he's got? I guess there's value in not being Bobcat-bad.
   459. Booey Posted: July 09, 2012 at 03:05 PM (#4177192)
I might be wrong, but wouldn't you rather have Bynum (and have to keep Turk) than the horrible pile of crap that ORL is getting?


You just want the Lakers to get Howard. :-)

But yes, unless the Magic are convinced that Bynum won't stay, which he's already saying that he won't. If I were running Orlando, I think I'd rather have 1st round picks than a one year rental.
   460. robinred Posted: July 09, 2012 at 03:07 PM (#4177195)
Howard: I think the Howard to Brooklyn thing will happen in the next 2-3 days. With this many rumors, ISTM that it means it goes down. The problem with a possible Lakers deal is that the Lakers used their picks to get Nash. The Lakers shot to pull it off was to trade Gasol for help at the point and a PF (likely to Minnesota or Houston) and then trade Bynum and picks for Howard, with a third team getting in it to give ORL another player and/or to help the Lakers take a bad contract. Also, it is important to remember that this is Rob Hennigan, not Otis Smith, making the calls for ORL, although I think I would have kept Anderson. Ayon is probably pretty good, and he is cheap, but Anderson is young himself and has some very well-developed, specific, and useful skills. Finally, I don't know that I would call it hypocritical, but I do have to smirk about the fact that Dan Gilbert hated the idea of Howard and Chris Paul making the Lakers bad news for everybody for the next few seasons, but is now apparently going to help put Howard alongside Deron Williams and Joe Johnson in a big blingy market, in his team's conference, so the Cavs can pay Kris Humphries about 20M to play the 4 for them while they try to get a 6th-8th playoff spot over the next three years. It had better be a good draft pick.

Green: I am still not seeing it. What Ainge seems to think is that Green is a B+ version of 2010 Lamar Odom--a guy who does a bit of everything, and therefore gives you a lot of flexibility. But I don't see that Green really does anything well enough that you'd want to give him 4/36. 2/10 or so, probably.

Love: I don't see it as a big deal. He has always talked a lot, going back to UCLA days.

People saying that Minnesota is interested in Jordan Hill, pending the Batum thing. Due to a CBA rule, the Lakers can only pay Hill 3.6 or 3.8M, (not sure which, but it is right around there). All Lakers fans, including Buss and Kupchak, seem to want Hill back on the team, but they have that limitation, so we will see what happens.
   461. robinred Posted: July 09, 2012 at 03:13 PM (#4177206)
As to Bynum and the extension, like I said, and as the DW thing showed, that may not mean anything. Bynum says a lot of stuff, and he could get more signing with ORL (or whoever he was with) as a FA and the Kamenetzky Bros, who deal with Lakers players face-to-face and are pretty even-handed, say that their read on Bynum is that his "Do they have banks there?" one-liner actually is more or less what it is: Bynum will play for whoever offers the money, and is more or less indifferent to what team that is.

That said, reapeating myself but I think it matters, to me if you are going Bynum, you keep Anderson. If you are going Lopez and picks, you might say a guy like Ayon makes more sense.
   462. Zipperholes Posted: July 09, 2012 at 03:15 PM (#4177209)
Let's say the Magic trade Howard somewhere else. What does he do? It's not like the Nets can sign him. That doesn't mean the Magic shouldn't take the best offer, but it's a reason to play some hardball with him until he realizes he doesn't have all the leverage here. And also for other teams to be in on the bidding.
   463. AROM Posted: July 09, 2012 at 03:16 PM (#4177211)
There will be perimeter defensive issues, but the Lakers struggling to guard PGs is a permanent fait accompli.


Last time a good Laker team could guard a PG was probably back when Jerry West was playing. That's why they've only won 10 titles in those 40 years.

Those picks from the Nets are going to be awful.


They might get a good pick out of this. Since you can only trade picks every other year the last one might come after Dwight's Brooklyn time is over.
   464. JJ1986 Posted: July 09, 2012 at 03:21 PM (#4177220)
The Nets have Houston's 2013, so I assume it's that one plus their own 2013 and 2015.
   465. robinred Posted: July 09, 2012 at 03:24 PM (#4177226)
RicBucher Ric Bucher
Source confirms IndyStar report: Pacers matching Por offer, keeping Hibbert. One big man down, at least one more to go...
   466. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 09, 2012 at 03:28 PM (#4177235)
That said, repeating myself but I think it matters, to me if you are going Bynum, you keep Anderson. If you are going Lopez and picks, you might say a guy like Ayon makes more sense.

I agree *but* it sounds like Orlando may not have wanted Anderson at that price regardless.

Low firsts: Definitely not junk, but also not super exciting. The value difference b/w #6 and #25 in the draft is enormous.

***

Don't really need it right now, but... here's a few trivia questions, brought on by a off-site discussion of one-time All-Star, long time player Juwan Howard.

1) What players have the records for longest NBA career (19 seasons) and most regular season games played (1286), respectively, without an All-Star appearance^?
2) Conversely, who had the shortest career of any multiple All-Star, by games played (non-actives*, careers that began after '60 - to eliminate Maurice Stokes and (also) a few obscure dudes)?

^ Rod Strickland is 14th in the latter category, incidentally. This question is dominated by big men as you can get slow, but you don't tend to get small.
* if you include actives, it's Blake Griffin.
   467. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 09, 2012 at 03:29 PM (#4177237)
Let's say the Magic trade Howard somewhere else. What does he do? It's not like the Nets can sign him. That doesn't mean the Magic shouldn't take the best offer, but it's a reason to play some hardball with him until he realizes he doesn't have all the leverage here. And also for other teams to be in on the bidding.

Several of the rumors have mentioned that the Magic prefer Lopez to anything that the Rockets can offer. So far, Houston is really the only team that seems to be ok with renting Howard and ok with just hoping to keep him long term. At one point, GS was mentioned, but that was a while ago now. With all the drama the Magic have dealt with the past year, it makes sense there aren't a whole lot of other teams that are willing to take on a lame duck (and recovering) Howard. It also sounds like the Magic are tired of playing hardball with him and just want this whole thing over already, even if they're publicly saying they're going to be patient.

Had Rose not been injured, I could have imagined a scenario where the Bulls would be interested (say, they're 100% healthy but still got dominated by Miami in the ECF) and would try to convince him to stay, but be ok with cap space and what's left if he signed elsewhere after the season.
   468. AROM Posted: July 09, 2012 at 03:38 PM (#4177245)
Der K,

My guess on one of the non-allstars is Caldwell Jones. Probably for the years.

Shortest career: Drazen Petrovic?
   469. AROM Posted: July 09, 2012 at 03:42 PM (#4177248)
Nope. Jones made an all-star team (not sure if ABA counts), but doesn't match the years or games listed. And Petrovic was not an all-star.
   470. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 09, 2012 at 03:46 PM (#4177253)
Though Petrovic did make third team All-NBA once, which is more impressive.

I am counting ABA All-Star games, because I didn't specify NBA only in my search. Probably moot.
   471. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 09, 2012 at 03:52 PM (#4177255)
Novak re-signs with Knicks, 4yr/$15mil.
   472. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: July 09, 2012 at 03:59 PM (#4177268)
Non All-Stars: AC Green? Kevin Willis?

EDIT: Nope, both made one AS game.
   473. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:02 PM (#4177271)
Bill Walton seems like a logical choice for short multiple-AS career (looks like 468 games; he didn't play in one of the 2 AS games he was selected to if I'm reading this right).
   474. andrewberg Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:09 PM (#4177285)
Is Sam Perkins one of the longevity guys?

How do S&Ts; work for non-max players? What's the advantage for the player?


Not sure if anyone else addressed this question, but the purpose is for the team receiving the player to go over their cap exceptions and functionally pay the player as if they had his Bird rights. We just saw Ray Allen sign for $3m pa in MIA instead of taking 2/$12m in Boston. Both teams were over the cap. BOS could offer more because they had his Bird rights. If he wanted to go to MIA (and the teams theoretically were not rivals), BOS could have S&T'd him to MIA and got some middling asset in return.
   475. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:10 PM (#4177289)
Novak re-signs with Knicks, 4yr/$15mil.

Seems/feels like a pretty big commitment at first blush.
   476. robinred Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:13 PM (#4177295)
Four years seems like a lot for Novak.
   477. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:13 PM (#4177298)
2) played 415 games in 8 seasons, 4 time A-S (played in 3). # of berths greatly surprised me. That said, you've heard of him.
   478. Zipperholes Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:16 PM (#4177302)
Not sure if anyone else addressed this question, but the purpose is for the team receiving the player to go over their cap exceptions and functionally pay the player as if they had his Bird rights.
OK, thanks. But the Magic aren't over the cap, right?
   479. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:20 PM (#4177308)
Yao would be another guess but I'm pretty sure he had more than 4 AS.

MANY EDITS: selected each of his 8 years, 486 games. Ralph Sampson had 456 games and 4 AS. Micheal Ray Richardson made it to 556 games which is a lot more than I would have guessed. Brad Daugherty 548.
   480. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:21 PM (#4177314)
The Magic are well over the cap. But the sign and trades in the Howard deal aren't for their benefit; it's so a team like the Nets who are over the cap can take back a bad contract from the Magic and it's why there's a third team (Cleveland) that has cap space has to be involved (in order to create a trade exception for the Nets to use to absorb the other contracts).
   481. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:23 PM (#4177318)
chadfordinsider: Just going up on ESPN. Clipoers will be 4th team in D Howard deal. They would take back MarShon Brooks in return for a lottery protected 1st


Again, why don't the Cavs want him?
   482. smileyy Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:24 PM (#4177320)
I'm trying to get excited about this Howard Nets team, but its really not working.
   483. Jimmy P Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:28 PM (#4177323)
Primer Retweet from Hollinger:

Best move for Eastern rivals right now would be to offer Sundiata Gaines a three-year deal.
   484. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4177326)
Novak re-signs with Knicks, 4yr/$15mil.


I'm happy to have him back, and that fits in neatly with what looks like our window of opportunity... but that strikes me as an overpay. Regardless, I'd love for the Knicks to bring back Shawne Williams, provided he comes cheap. I think a bench with Novak and Williams could cause other teams fits.
   485. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4177327)
Here's the full deal from Ford, which is different than the Wojoyahoo one in 447:

According to sources the Nets would receive Howard, Jason Richardson, Chris Duhon and Earl Clark in the proposed deal. The Magic would get Brook Lopez in a sign-and-trade, Luke Walton, Damion James, Shelden Williams, Armon Johnson and three first-round picks -- two from the Nets and a lottery protected first from the Clippers. The Cavs would get Kris Humphries in a sign-and-trade, Quentin Richardson, Sundiata Gaines, a first round pick from the Nets and three million in cash. The Clippers would receive MarShon Brooks.
   486. Zipperholes Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4177328)
The Magic are well over the cap. But the sign and trades in the Howard deal aren't for their benefit; it's so a team like the Nets who are over the cap can take back a bad contract from the Magic and it's why there's a third team (Cleveland) that has cap space has to be involved (in order to create a trade exception for the Nets to use to absorb the other contracts).
Does that take into account the amnesty of Arenas? I guess what I'm asking is, would Orlando be able to sign Lopez as a FA? Also, when you say the acquiring team can "functionally pay the player as if they had his Bird rights", what does that mean for a non-max player? An extra year?
   487. smileyy Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:32 PM (#4177329)
Best move for Eastern rivals right now would be to offer Sundiata Gaines a three-year deal.


Because he's an RFA, and a signed offer sheet would completely *($# up the giant Howard S&T he needs to be a part of?

This offseason, I've become not-a-fan of, as they exist:
1. Restricted Free Agency
2. Bird Rights (to a lesser extent) -- the team losing a Bird Rights player needs something in compensation to fill the hole left behind. Basically, the C's could sign one particular Ray Allen like player (Ray Allen) for, say, 2/12. But if he doesn't take that offer, they can sign every other Ray Allen like player for only, say, 2/4. That bugs me.
   488. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:33 PM (#4177330)
I can tell you this, I'd rather have two Steve Novaks than one Jeff Green. Would rather have one Steve Novak actually. That's a fine price for a useful complementary piece and I don't really see him as the type of player likely to decline over 4 years.

I assume [483] is a joke referencing Toronto signing Fields.
   489. Zipperholes Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:33 PM (#4177332)
   490. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:34 PM (#4177333)
Does that take into account the amnesty of Arenas? I guess what I'm asking is, would Orlando be able to sign Lopez as a FA? Also, when you say the acquiring team can "functionally pay the player as if they had his Bird rights", what does that mean for a non-max player? An extra year?

Yes. No*. Yes.

*Well, yes, for the MLE, which might just be the smaller tax payer MLE of $3mil, and that would immediately be matched by the Nets immediately.
   491. JJ1986 Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:37 PM (#4177337)
I figured Brooks would go to a team bad enough to net a good pick. A protected first from the Clippers is more junk.
   492. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:37 PM (#4177339)
Humphries agent, Dan Fegan, is still trying to convince Humphries to settle for a deal that will be guaranteed for just one year. Fegan also represents Howard.


I gotta say, this is a massive conflict of interest. And I see no reason why Humpries should agree to a one year deal - in Cleveland - for anything less than a nice raise on the $8mil he made last year when he signed a 1 year deal.
   493. Jimmy P Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:39 PM (#4177341)
Again, why don't the Cavs want him?


Just drafted a guy that plays the same position?

The Cavs make some really puzzling moves. This would be one of those.
   494. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:42 PM (#4177343)
Again, why don't the Cavs want him?

Just drafted a guy that plays the same position?


I guess 6th man isn't really a position, but one of them would have to be the 7th man then.

In all seriousness, I agree with robin and whoever else has pointed out Dan Gilbert's BS by being involved in this. It's practically a middle finger to the Lakers.
   495. Zipperholes Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:44 PM (#4177346)
What would Humphries get on the open market? At least the MLE for 3 years, right?

And isn't Kris Humphries about as similar a player to Anderson Varejao as there is?
   496. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4177354)
What would Humphries get on the open market? At least the MLE for 3 years, right?

No idea, but I think it's funny that we live in a world where apparently no one cares to pick up Kris Humprhies and Jeff Green is sitting on 4 eyars and 36 million or whatever.

And isn't Kris Humphries about as similar a player to Anderson Varejao as there is?

I don't see the comp. To me, Humphries is a pure rebounder/putback guy whereas Varejao's value is in his defense.
   497. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4177357)
MarShon Brooks is just not that good, and he is 23 years old, it's not like he's some sort of uber-prospect. He's basically the same guy as Jordan Crawford and nobody is going nuts over him.
   498. Zipperholes Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:49 PM (#4177360)
I don't see the comp. To me, Humphries is a pure rebounder/putback guy whereas Varejao's value is in his defense.
OK, yeah. Guess I was focused too much on the rebounding.
   499. Conor Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4177362)
I try and read the Larry Coon FAQ as much as I can, but there are sometimes the trade rules confuse the hell out of me.

I understand the Nets want the trade exception from Cleveland to take back another player from Orlando, but how are they able to trade Humphries to the Cavs? They are over the cap, don't the salaries at least need to come close to matching?
   500. JJ1986 Posted: July 09, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4177363)
Cleveland was trying to move AV for a draft pick, so they might be tired of him.
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