They are over the cap, don't the salaries at least need to come close to matching?

Cleveland is not over the cap. They can take on about $5.5m more than they send out.

I understand the Nets want the trade exception from Cleveland to take back another player from Orlando, but how are they able to trade Humphries to the Cavs? They are over the cap, don't the salaries at least need to come close to matching?

The Cavs have cap space, so they can just absorb the contract. The matching stuff doesn't matter. Since the Nets aren't getting anything back in return, they get the exception that's equal to Humphries contract. This trade is not actually 1 big trade, it's probably technically 4 or 5 smaller ones, which means each individual trade has to meet the salary matching rules exception for the one with Humphries that is creating the TPE. On paper, there are probably some players that are being traded multiple times in the deal.

It's the same way the Lakers were able to "sign" Steve Nash. They had an exception from trading Odom for nothing last year (into the Mavs open cap space/pre-existing exception - I don't remember which, probably the latter from S&T Chandler to the Knicks), so they dealt just picks for Nash and his salary for the first year equals the exception amount (Odom's contract value from last season).

I don't see the comp. To me, Humphries is a pure rebounder/putback guy whereas Varejao's value is in his defense.


I think he's more like Millsap was early on.

MarShon Brooks is just not that good, and he is 23 years old, it's not like he's some sort of uber-prospect. He's basically the same guy as Jordan Crawford and nobody is going nuts over him.

He's better than that. He's a guy who can get his shot off just about anyone. He's tall and long, which makes him a bit more versatile and some hope that he can be at least passable on D.

He's better than that. He's a guy who can get his shot off just about anyone. He's tall and long, which makes him a bit more versatile and some hope that he can be at least passable on D.

And more importantly, he's still cheap and more valuable than a future 20ish overall pick.

No idea, but I think it's funny that we live in a world where apparently no one cares to pick up Kris Humprhies and Jeff Green is sitting on 4 eyars and 36 million or whatever.

Kardashians destroyed his value apparently.

The Cavs have cap space, so they can just absorb the contract. The matching stuff doesn't matter. Since the Nets aren't getting anything back in return, they get the exception that's equal to Humphries contract. This trade is not actually 1 big trade, it's probably technically 4 or 5 smaller ones, which means each individual trade has to meet the salary matching rules exception for the one with Humphries that is creating the TPE. On paper, there are probably some players that are being traded multiple times in the deal.

Ok, I wasn't totally clear on this. I get that 2 teams that are under the cap can trade freely with each other; I wasn't totally clear on what happens when just one of the teams is under the cap. So basically as long as one of the teams is under the cap (and will remain under the cap after the completion of the trade) then teams can pretty much trade freely?

Any trade which leaves the team over the salary cap requires an exception -- even if the team is moving downward in salary

That's from Larry Coon. Which confuses me a little. I understand that when this trade is completed, the Nets will have the exception from Cleveland that allows them to take on another player from Orlando, but what is the exception that allowed them to send Humphries to Cleveland in the first place? Or are they one and the same?

2) played 415 games in 8 seasons, 4 time A-S (played in 3). # of berths greatly surprised me. That said, you've heard of him.

Penny Hardaway?

Edit- asked and answered.

But if he doesn't take that offer, they can sign every other Ray Allen like player for only, say, 2/4. That bugs me.

That's a feature to me, not a bug. The point of Bird Rights is to foster continuity and allow teams to keep their group together.

Ok, I wasn't totally clear on this. I get that 2 teams that are under the cap can trade freely with each other; I wasn't totally clear on what happens when just one of the teams is under the cap. So basically as long as one of the teams is under the cap (and will remain under the cap after the completion of the trade) then teams can pretty much trade freely?

The capped out team can't take money back freely, only the under-cap team can.

The capped out team can't take money back freely, only the under-cap team can.

Right. So as long as the under cap team takes back an amount that keeps them under the cap, they can send back a conditional second round pick or something to complete the trade?

Hints
1-years) played for 8 teams, won 3 rings. 7 footer, good scorer. 3rd round pick!
1-games) played for 4 teams, no rings. #4 pick in draft, unusually good outside shooter for a big man
2) better known for post-playing career, #1 overall pick (!). Has been discussed in this thread before.

Right. So as long as the under cap team takes back an amount that keeps them under the cap, they can send back a conditional second round pick or something to complete the trade?

Exactly.

You know, I just have to think that 1 year of Dwight Howard's basketball playing and the right to call Dwight Howard's bluff on his willingness to give up $30 mill or so is worth more than this.

You know, I just have to think that 1 year of Dwight Howard's basketball playing and the right to call Dwight Howard's bluff on his willingness to give up $30 mill or so is worth more than this.

If I'm Orlando, I'd have rather had Houston's 3 draft picks than Brook Lopez and clearing Jason Richardson. If you're not getting much, you at least need to move Hedo.

You know, I just have to think that 1 year of Dwight Howard's basketball playing and the right to call Dwight Howard's bluff on his willingness to give up $30 mill or so is worth more than this.

I agree. If you wait until New Jersey is out of the picture, he'll likely change his tune in a hurry.

2) Doug Collins?

The Pacers are going to match on Hibbert. The Blazers are going to hope that Meyers Leonard is not a typical Blazers center.

Joers Przybard.

Gilbert: If he does have ulterior motives (and he may not, obviously) I would guess that he also likes the idea of putting up a roadblock in front of James. Howard in BKN probably makes it tougher for both the Lakers and the Heat to make the Finals.

Hollinger just tweeted that the Heat need to get Jason Collins on the phone as soon as Howard is traded.

Hollinger just tweeted that the Heat need to get Jason Collins on the phone as soon as Howard is traded.

That is actually an excellent point.

@WojYahooNBA:

Marcus Camby has reached agreement on a deal with the Knicks, league sources tell Y! Sports.

Houston and New York agreed on a sign-and-trade deal sending Douglas, Harrelson, Jordan to Rockets for picks, sources said.

The Rockets will get the Knicks' second round picks in 2014 and 2015, source tells Y! The Knicks will pay Toney Douglas' salary in Houston.

Pelton's right!

Danny green stays w SA for 3/12.

Kyrie Irving is fast becoming one of my favorite players. Wow.

Marcus Camby has reached agreement on a deal with the Knicks, league sources tell Y! Sports.

Very glad (and surprised) he's not going to Miami. Didn't he say he wanted to start? Maybe Miami didn't want to start him, and so in that case he preferred New York City?

The Spurs needed to keep Danny Green. He's pretty integral to their team. Good get. Now onto Diaw and hopefully Lorbek. Would love to see something like Anderson, Neal, Bonner and Blair moved for Varejao. Seems like that might work for both teams.

The Spurs needed to keep Danny Green. He's pretty integral to their team.

He played 8 minutes in an elimination game. He's not that integral.

Would love to see something like Anderson, Neal, Bonner and Blair moved for Varejao. Seems like that might work for both teams.

That would be a great deal for the Spurs.

Also, is it me or do the Hornets have a pretty good nucleus with Davis, Rivers, Gordon and Anderson? Seems like a team that could contend if things break correctly over the next three years. What's their starting lineup right now? Rivers, Gordon, Aminu/Henry, Anderson, Davis? Maybe they use Jack and bring Rivers off the Bench..

edit: If I get league pass I might make them one of my teams...

529 - Less than 8 minutes, but I don't think that speaks to his value to the team. He pooped the bed against the Thunder (shot 4/23 from 3), but had a good postseason outside of that series. He's also someone the spurs like to crossmatch on point guards (like Chris Paul) to great effect.

You know, I just have to think that 1 year of Dwight Howard's basketball playing and the right to call Dwight Howard's bluff on his willingness to give up $30 mill or so is worth more than this.

The problem with the $30 million is that it's not really $30 million - it's more like $10 or so, spread out over 5 years, because the biggest chunk of that $30 million (say $18-20m) is the 6th year of the contract. Injuries exist and all, but a guy like Dwight Howard isn't worried THAT much that his 5 year deal is going to end and no one's going to want to sign him. The whole thing is kind of reverse logic - the 5th year / 6th year part only applies to very top players since they're the only ones who can get those kinds of deals, yet they're the ones who are least likely to require the protection of an extra guaranteed year. Someone's taking them regardless. Catastrophic injuries are a factor but they're rare, and nobody thinks they're getting hurt anyway. If his skills somehow diminish but he can still play, well then he's getting $10 million (at least) in that prospective year 6 from whatever new contract he signs - risking the 8 million or 10 million he would have gotten guaranteed for that year if he signed with his original team, discounted from 5 years of having to wait for it, is probably considered a pretty fair tradeoff for the chance that nothing really changes and he gets to sign another fat contract when his current 5-year deal is up. Lots of people aren't risk averse, particularly young people, particularly young people who pretty much been able to do whatever they wanted for their entire lives. Plus the team he (currently) wants to play for would now hold his Bird rights, so he can get paid through the nose by the team he always wanted to play for. Howard is 26 - at the end of his prospective 5-year deal he'll be 31. He'll get another big deal after this one unless if lightning strikes, in which case he probably figures he's screwed anyway.

Basically I just don't see it as a huge deterrent. Apparently the teams agree, since no one wants to be the guy holding the bag when a superstar's contract is up - they know he's out of there. If the financial incentive were that great teams like Orlando would be doing exactly the above: sit back and say F you, turn down the money, we dare you. They clearly don't mind saying F you when they think they have the upper hand, as the last CBA negotiations showed. But they didn't push for real team-building adjustments to the system, even though that was the emotional cover. All they really wanted was to take back as much money as possible.

And you've got S&Ts;, which muddy up the whole process even further. For all the sturm and drang, LeBron didn't sign a free agent contract two years ago - it was a sign and trade. These restrictions are fairly toothless. That's why these players pretty much always end up on the team they want.

Also, is it me or do the Hornets have a pretty good nucleus with Davis, Rivers, Gordon and Anderson? Seems like a team that could contend if things break correctly over the next three years.

If you're talking about contending for the 8th seed, then yes, I agree. If you mean for a championship, then no, I'm not seeing it. You're not beating any of the superfriends type contenders with that lineup.

532 - Would the Nets really be able to offer near max next year? That doesn't seem like it would be possible. It seems like there's a much bigger than $30 million difference.

I don't know that I agree the Neal/Blair deal makes sense for Varejao. It seems like we're talking about a lot of the Spurs vaunted depth for a guy who basically hasn't done anything the last 2 seasons.

How good do folks here think a Howard-Williams-Johnson Nets team is? Definite title contender? Maybe not "better" than MIA but able to take advantage of matchup problems at the 1/5?

I would say definite title contender, and yes, those matchup problems would make MIA/BK contests very interesting. Williams would instantly be the best teammate Howard's ever had, and unless I'm forgetting someone, Joe Johnson might be the second-best.

How good do folks here think a Howard-Williams-Johnson Nets team is? Definite title contender? Maybe not "better" than MIA but able to take advantage of matchup problems at the 1/5?

Any team with a motivated Dwight Howard and a decent supporting cast is a fringe title contender. The Nets would have better than a decent supporting cast.

Power Forwards on the Rockets:

Luis Scola
Patrick Patterson
Marcus Morris
Greg Smith
Royce White
Terrence Jones
Jon Leuer
Jon Brockman
Josh Harellson

Other Rockets:

G Toney Douglas
G Shaun Livingston
SG Jeremy Lamb
SF Gary Forbes
SF Chandler Parsons
C Jerome Jordan

Odd way to build a team.

The Rockets will get the Knicks' second round picks in 2014 and 2015, source tells Y! The Knicks will pay Toney Douglas' salary in Houston.

The Knicks are really saving money on their college scouting staff. And on travel to the NBA draft

The Knicks are really saving money on their college scouting staff. And on travel to the NBA draft

Yeah, I told a friend of mine the upside is that I don't have to watch college basketball or the draft for at least the next 3-4 years.

Any guesses on the 2 guard, NJ? They've got the $3 million exception, right?

Williams isn't a match up problem for the heat. They have three guys who can guard him and at least Lebron to switch off on pnrs, plus he's not a special defender. Howard, however...

The hornets are interesting but they really need a pg. Davis, especially, will be especially dangerous as a roller until his offensive game fills out.

Sort of interesting notion picked up from a Celtics fan board: If you're Ainge, do you spend any time and energy trying to help Houston put together a more attractive package for Dwight? Contending for Boston is already an uphill battle, of course, but it still appears to be the goal for next season at least, and possibly the next two or three seasons. Obviously Howard in Brooklyn would make that even harder. The Boston FO is reportedly already talking (or will be soon) to the Houston FO about Courtney Lee. The Celtics are a bit thin at power forward. Adding that all up together, is there anything Ainge can do to get Howard to Houston and out of the Eastern Conference?

How good do folks here think a Howard-Williams-Johnson Nets team is? Definite title contender? Maybe not "better" than MIA but able to take advantage of matchup problems at the 1/5?

55 wins at least, top 2 or 3 seed in the East depending on how well Chicago recovers. Howard had a Finals appearance and an ECF appearance in back to back 59 win seasons without a sidekick anywhere near the caliber of Williams. Williams and the Jazz averaged 52 wins a year in a loaded conference from 2007-2010 without another player anywhere near the caliber of Howard.

Throw in Johnson, Wallace, and whoever, and that would be a title contender for sure, I'd think.

Any guesses on the 2 guard, NJ? They've got the $3 million exception, right?

Shumpert (once he's back). Until then...it looks like all eggs are in the J.R. Smith, please take our 2.8 mil offer. Haven't really heard much about them addressing their needs at the position, which is weird considering it's a glaring weakness (that and the lack of 3 point shooting outside of Novak).

Let's not trash those Orlando teams so badly. Turk and Lewis were much better then, and svg maximized the hell out of the lineup.

Shumpert (once he's back). Until then...it looks like all eggs are in the J.R. Smith, please take our 2.8 mil offer. Haven't really heard much about them addressing their needs at the position, which is weird considering it's a glaring weakness (that and the lack of 3 point shooting outside of Novak).

Like a lot of teams, Courtney Lee would seem to be a fit.

How good do folks here think a Howard-Williams-Johnson Nets team is? Definite title contender? Maybe not "better" than MIA but able to take advantage of matchup problems at the 1/5?

It's weird because it's a completely new core, so it's really hard to evaluate them. Was Howard playing possum last year? What about Williams? Will Joe Johnson play better when he doesn't dominate the ball so much?

I think I would conservatively peg them at 55-60 wins, acknowledging that their upside is possibly greater than 65, and their downside is about 50.

Last clues on #1 - answers tomorrow.

19 season guy was known for his facial hair and demeanor - nickname reflected both. I remember him as part of a rough crowd, Pelton ought to know him for another reason...

Most games guy also had a nickname reflecting his mannerisms and look - despite lack of nba titles had success in college and Olympics, helped by a considerably more famous teammate. Arguably the career leader in 3s made by a center in the playoffs, depending on who you call a four or a five.

I'd rather see Chandler-Camby-Melo start and Amare come off the bench. Not much out there in terms of 2 guards, and I can't stand Smith.

I don't agree that this Brooklyn team is substantially better than the Orlando prime teams. Also, 65 wins seems like a really high ceiling. I also think Howard is a reasonably easy guy to find a 10th man stopper for. At the end of the day LeBron is better than Howard, Wade is better than Williams, and Bosh is better than JJ. And none of those are super close. Still very impressive what they look capable of putting together.

Der, I think someone guessed him already, but Perkins?

Oh ####, sorry Andrew - never saw that!
Yeah, Perkins is the most games guy.

Ric Bucher saying the Hornets and Suns will work out a s-and-t for Gordon. Trade bait includes the likes of Kendall Marshall, Keef Morris, Jared Dudley and 1st-round picks (Suns now have five over 2013-15). I've also heard Robin Lopez is a possibility, although that may involve a separate s-and-t.

A Suns backcourt of Dragic-Gordon? Color me intrigued.

Also, 65 wins seems like a really high ceiling. I also think Howard is a reasonably easy guy to find a 10th man stopper for. At the end of the day LeBron is better than Howard, Wade is better than Williams, and Bosh is better than JJ. And none of those are super close.

Almost nobody wins 65 games, so I'm with you there. Disagree that it's "reasonably easy" to find a 10th man who stops Howard. If that were true, he wouldn't have averaged 20 and 14 with nearly 60% shooting over the last five years. (Edit: Plus his primary value is on defense, so having a "stopper" hardly neutralizes him.) And I actually think Joe Johnson alongside Howard and Williams might be just as good as Chris Bosh alongside Wade and LeBron. (The former could become more efficient and might get better looks, the latter's talents have not generally been maximized on the Heat.) Also I wonder if Wade breaks down again.

All that said I'd certainly rate the Heat as the clear favorites with the Nets as their foremost challengers. *If* this deal actually goes down.

Johnson has had more health problems than any of miami's big 3 and has not been nearly as effective for several years. There's also a huge gap between wade and Williams (also not the picture of health). If the nearest match is the one between your guy and the best player alive, you start at a disadvantage. Granted, there might be some better synergy in bk.

Not sure what the phrase "not nearly as effective for several years" means with regard to Joe Johnson. He's put up roughly the same solid if unspectacular numbers since he was 24. And he's played 82, 79, 76, 72, and 60 (out of 66) games over the last five seasons. He played just 57 games six seasons ago, sure; he also played 82 games the year before that.

Williams has missed some games the last couple seasons I'll grant you, though he hardly missed any before that and from what I know is healthy now. Wade, meanwhile, had knee surgery today. Chris Bosh missed a bunch of the playoffs. Both are (wisely) sitting out of the Olympics.

Howard's back is obviously a big question mark, but then he is the youngest of all six.

And it may come down, as you suggest, to fit -- and also depth. Also, just to reiterate: I do expect Miami to be better.

If the nearest match is the one between your guy and the best player alive, you start at a disadvantage. Granted, there might be some better synergy in bk.

Isn't this the biggest deal? I mean, the NBA isn't Fantasy.

Just as a thought experiment, let's compare Brooklyn Nets to LeBron's Cav's teams:

Brooklyn vs. 2009 Cavaliers (best regular season team):

PG: Deron vs. Mo--Clear advantage Brooklyn in the battle of the Williams. I put this as a 3 win advantage to Deron.
SG: Joe Johnson vs. Delonte West--Slight advantage Brooklyn. I put this at around a 1 win advantage to Joe.
SF: Gerald Wallace vs. LeBron James--Gaping chasm for the Cavs. 13 win advantage to LeBron and the Cavs.
PF: Andy Varejao vs. ... ??? Random Euro Dude? Shawne Williams? Shelden Williams? Not sure here. Varaejao was good, and I have no clue on the Euro, but the other guys are bad. I'm going to say 4 wins to the Cavs.
C: Dwight Howard vs. Zydrunas Ilgauskas--Huge gap here favoring the Nets. The big Z was pretty bad that year. I'm assuming Howard bounces back to peak form, so I'm scoring this as a 8 win advantage for the Nets.

By this completely scientific math, this puts the Nets at 61 wins.

Power Forwards on the Rockets:

Luis Scola
Patrick Patterson
Marcus Morris
Greg Smith
Royce White
Terrence Jones
Jon Leuer
Jon Brockman
Josh Harellson

Three players from the same school playing the same position on the same NBA team has to be some sort of record.

532 - Would the Nets really be able to offer near max next year? That doesn't seem like it would be possible. It seems like there's a much bigger than $30 million difference.

Not next year - think about it year by year. According to an old Truehoop article (numbers may be slightly different) Howard can either sign with Orlando for 5/109 or elsewhere for 4/81. Looks like a $30 million difference - but it's almost entirely because of the extra year. It's really actually a 5 year contract at an average of $22m per or 4 year contract at $20m per. If you're a scrub at the end of the bench or a sixth man, yeah, you want that extra guaranteed year, because who knows what's going to happen. Who knows if you can get another contract when this one's up. Howard doesn't have that problem - he's going to get another contract, another huge one, when whatever contract he signs this year or next summer is up. So worrying about the 5th guaranteed year isn't a huge problem for him. He's going to get paid, and it's going to be at least the $22m he would have gotten guaranteed in this contract or more. And when you look at that per ($22 million a year with a team he doesn't want to be on, or $20 million a year for a team he does want to be on), the difference isn't really THAT great, and when you factor in the marketing advantages of playing in New York, the chance to win a championship, the chance to be cool and surrounded by a bunch other great players, that $2 million a year starts to look smaller and smaller. Throwing in marketing, Howard might actually earn more with the Nets per year than he would with Orlando, even starting in that $2 million hole. Or damn close. Howard's going to earn several hundred million dollars over the course of his career - what's two million a year for a few years against all those other advantages, and the possibility of earning as much or more anyway?

Then after four years he's a free agent again. He'll be 30. Right in line for another huge contract. Except now his Bird rights are held by the Nets, the team he wanted to play for. He can re-sign with them for 5 years or do whatever he wants. Howard's a stud. And he's tall. Look at Camby. Made of glass but he's still getting paid. Mutombo got contracts until he was going up and down the floor with a walking stick. Howard's going to get contracts until he doesn't want to play any more.

The risk factor is catastrophic injury, but a lot of these guys don't think that way, and anyway the risk of catastrophic injury is very small. And even so Brandon Roy is still getting contracts. Greg Oden got a $6.8 million tender when he was ALREADY out for the year with a major injury, his third or fourth or twentieth. Either way, the much greater likelihood is that Howard simply plays out the deal and then signs another massive one when it's up. Double either way, we're only talking about one guaranteed year in a bridge contract anyway.

The risk just isn't really that great and more importantly, the money isn't really that different. The teams don't really have any leverage and they know it - that's why nobody wants to hold Howard at the end of his deal because the chances are very, very good he'll simply walk. Unless he's extremely risk-averse, it makes all the sense in the world for him to. The per year isn't that different and when you're a stud you can afford to think that way. At least once. Which is all Howard has to do.

Took me a second to figure out what you were referencing with the most years guy, but now I'm almost certain I have it. I'll give others a chance to guess.

[558] Assuming I'm not missing something huge here...if Howard is traded to NotTheNets there's no way he can leave your team for the Nets unless he wants to sign for way under market due to the Nets cap situation.

Ric Bucher saying the Hornets and Suns will work out a s-and-t for Gordon.

Wow, that's very interesting. I think that's probably the right move for the Hornets- has Gordon really done enough to merit that deal? Then again, the Paul trade now amounts to... what again? A pick? That should add more fuel to Lakers fans fire.

19 season guy was known for his facial hair and demeanor - nickname reflected both. I remember him as part of a rough crowd, Pelton ought to know him for another reason...

James Edwards?

Just as a thought experiment, let's compare Brooklyn Nets to LeBron's Cav's teams:

I'm sure you know this, but the Cav's 2009 roster is not the kind of roster that normally gets you 66 wins. I'm still not sure how they did that. It wasn't crazy luck - their pythag was 65-17. Lebron had a great year, but then again he has a great year every year. I think their 2010 roster was better, a team that won 61 games, and both Lebron Miami teams were much better, which won less often than that in the regular season.

Do the same kind of analysis for the 86 Celtics and you'd probably have to conclude they win 84 games or something.

Nicely done, Chicago Joe.

Nicely done, Chicago Joe.

Facial hair + rough crowd. Pelton went to UWash?

How 'bout most points scored without ever making an All-Star Game?

Houston and New York agreed on a sign-and-trade deal sending Douglas, Harrelson, Jordan to Rockets for picks, sources said.

I think Harrelson can play a bit, but Douglas is worthless and James Jordan doesn't exist. Overall, I approve.

I think Harrelson can play a bit, but Douglas is worthless and James Jordan doesn't exist. Overall, I approve.

DWTDWTF was useless last year, but he was solid the prior 2 seasons. At some point, his struggles became mental and I think he's a good buy low candidate for HOU. Especially considering we will be paying his contract. Speaking of which, does anyone know if NYK paying Douglas' contract means that they can't use the 3 mil annual exception, or whatever it is, to buy a draft pick?

I'd rather see Chandler-Camby-Melo start and Amare come off the bench. Not much out there in terms of 2 guards, and I can't stand Smith.

Exactly how crazy would a Chandler, Camby, Amare, Melo and Lin lineup be? Melo and Amare would get killed off the dribble on defense, but Chandler and Camby could cover for them pretty well. On the flip side, Melo and Amare at the 2 and 3 would create significant matchup issues for the other team on the offensive end. It also should be an outstaning rebounding lineup. Probably doesn't work, but I'd like to see them give it a shot.

Pelton is pro-Seattle in general.
Edwards was an adjunct member of the Bad Boys w/ the Pistons and often sported a Fu Manchu. Nickname Buddha.

As for most points, I learned that one in looking up the other dudes, so I'll have to recuse myself.

***

rumor!
SA keeps Diaw for something like 2/9m, yr 2 a p-opt.

Exactly how crazy would a Chandler, Camby, Amare, Melo and Lin lineup be? Melo and Amare would get killed off the dribble on defense, but Chandler and Camby could cover for them pretty well. On the flip side, Melo and Amare at the 2 and 3 would create significant matchup issues for the other team on the offensive end. It also should be an outstaning rebounding lineup. Probably doesn't work, but I'd like to see them give it a shot.

What about maximizing the time Lin and Amare have with each other since they're so good at the p&r by putting them on the second team. Put Kidd on the first team. He seems a better match for Melo.

Exactly how crazy would a Chandler, Camby, Amare, Melo and Lin lineup be? Melo and Amare would get killed off the dribble on defense, but Chandler and Camby could cover for them pretty well. On the flip side, Melo and Amare at the 2 and 3 would create significant matchup issues for the other team on the offensive end. It also should be an outstaning rebounding lineup. Probably doesn't work, but I'd like to see them give it a shot.

That is a pretty crazy lineup. Conservatively speaking, that lineup would give up the most PPG in the NBA and lead the league in turnovers.

I wouldn't want to see that lineup, but I would think that just by having Camby and Chandler protecting the rim and rebounding, they probably wouldn't allow the most points per game in the league. But Melo guarding 2's and Amare 3's would be frightening. And you're probably right on the TO.

Atlantic Division should be pretty tough next year; especially if the Nets land Dwight.

I think that's probably the right move for the Hornets- has Gordon really done enough to merit that deal? Then again, the Paul trade now amounts to... what again? A pick? That should add more fuel to Lakers fans fire.

Well, it's the #10 last year (Austin Rivers), Aminu, and whatever they'd get in a sign-and-trade for Gordon. If I'm the Hornets, I trade Gordon. I've been very down on him (one of the only ones here) partly because I'm biased against him from college, but partly because he hasn't shown the ability to stay healthy and his reputation is built off one half-season. I just don't think that's a max player.

That being said, I can't say what the Suns are offering intrigues me. I think Marshall's too slow, Dudley's ok (can't remember his contract), and Morris could be decent. I guess I'd take one of them and two firsts.

I just don't think that's a max player.

Totally agree. I'm not down on him, I think he's good, but not every good player is worth max money. I hate the idea of being stuck in mediocrity while also being capped out, though in the funny world of the NBA that can sometime work out - having a matching salary to trade for an actual great player.

I think NOH is doing the right thing here - you don't want Gordon at that rate, but at least get something out of the sign & trade.

I wouldn't want to see that lineup, but I would think that just by having Camby and Chandler protecting the rim and rebounding, they probably wouldn't allow the most points per game in the league. But Melo guarding 2's and Amare 3's would be frightening. And you're probably right on the TO.

Yeah, I think turnovers is where that lineup gets killed. Just trap the hell out of Lin, who's turnover prone anyway, and Melo is the only other guy who can dribble the ball at all.

If I'm the Hornets, I trade Gordon. I've been very down on him (one of the only ones here) partly because I'm biased against him from college, but partly because he hasn't shown the ability to stay healthy and his reputation is built off one half-season. I just don't think that's a max player.

I agree with this. I would go hard for Marshall and Morris. Morris can get minutes backing up Anderson and whatever defensive concerns you have about Marshall should be somewhat eased by Anthony Davis protecting the rim. Offensively, giving Marshall the keys to the offense just makes far more sense to me than trying to convert Rivers into a 1. Marshall-Rivers-Aminu(?)-Anderson-Davis would definitely get me to shell out League Pass money.

EDIT: Got confused by teams.

Not sure what the phrase "not nearly as effective for several years" means with regard to Joe Johnson.

Johnson's career PER is 16.4. Last 3 years- 19.3, 16.4, 18.4. Career WS/48 is .097. Last 3 years- .14, .08, .145.
Bosh's career PER is 20.8. Last 3 years- 25 (25! Johnson never approached that as the go-to guy), 19.4, 18.9. Career WS/48 is .161, last 3- .182, .177, .165.

In other words, at his BEST Johnson is not as good as Bosh. When I mentioned health, I thought he missed more games in 11, but I guess he just played and played poorly. That still counts as a point against him. I think you will find similar distinctions at each level: Lebron is a cut above Howard, Wade is a cut above Williams (with the potential caveat that Wade's age might bring him down). If you start out with each guy clearly better than the comparison, you need A LOT of synergies to even it out, and it's not like BK has a lot of great supporting players to make up the gap through supporting cast.

That being said, I can't say what the Suns are offering intrigues me. I think Marshall's too slow, Dudley's ok (can't remember his contract), and Morris could be decent. I guess I'd take one of them and two firsts.

Agree, that sounds like a better trade. And even though there's upside, it's not like Dragic, Gordon, Gortat guarantee you 50 wins a year to devalue the picks.

The 4 can get minutes backing up Anderson and whatever defensive concerns you have about Marshall should be somewhat eased by Anthony Davis protecting the rim. Offensively, giving Marshall the keys to the offense just makes far more sense to me than trying to convert Rivers into a 1.

That lineup verges on putting Davis in Tyson Chandler mode from year 1. Somebody should be able at least annoy other perimeter players. Still, I would probably do the same thing.

What about maximizing the time Lin and Amare have with each other since they're so good at the p&r by putting them on the second team. Put Kidd on the first team. He seems a better match for Melo.

Unless Amare turns back the clock, I don't see why the team should try to cater to his strengths. He's still good enough to be a 2nd or 3rd weapon, but doesn't bring enough to the table outside of his scoring.

The Knicks should try to fit their offense around Melo and Lin, and their defense around Chandler, Shumpert, and Camby.

Figure out what to do with Amare and Smith as the season progresses.

I don't know if anyone brought this up here, but ESPN is now saying that the second year of Roy's contract is only partially guaranteed.

I think how Roy looks next year will be the true test of the Orthokine treatment. If he looks even 90% of himself, every team should get an Orthokine specialist.

I don't know if anyone brought this up here, but ESPN is now saying that the second year of Roy's contract is only partially guaranteed.

I think you were on hiatus at the time this deal went down but I thought it was awful and was hoping to get your perspective on it as a MIN fan. My bad if you covered this elsewhere.

That lineup verges on putting Davis in Tyson Chandler mode from year 1. Somebody should be able at least annoy other perimeter players. Still, I would probably do the same thing.

Hey, being a bad lottery team for 2-3 years isn't the worst strategy in the world.

Agree, that sounds like a better trade. And even though there's upside, it's not like Dragic, Gordon, Gortat guarantee you 50 wins a year to devalue the picks.

True. I think it sounds like the Hawks of the past 5 years or so.

I don't know if anyone brought this up here, but ESPN is now saying that the second year of Roy's contract is only partially guaranteed.


I've heard here that Minnesota's offer to Batum is going to be a full max deal. I guess people are really expecting him to blossom out of McMillan's offense.

Raja Bell is going to be cut free soon. I think he wants to sign with Miami, but he could definitely help a New Orleans team that looks like that.

I think you were on hiatus at the time this deal went down but I thought it was awful and was hoping to get your perspective on it as a MIN fan. My bad if you covered this elsewhere.

I've heard here that Minnesota's offer to Batum is going to be a full max deal. I guess people are really expecting him to blossom out of McMillan's offense.

I think I posted a sentence or so about these guys on my phone, but it probably warrants more than that.

There is an element of excitement with Roy. The last time the Wolves brought in a guy as talented as him through a trade or free agency was probably when the acquired Cassell and Sprewell before the 2004 season. On the other hand, I didn't take him seriously when he said he was coming back, I looked down on all of the teams that were courting him (except Indy, who seemingly had a low-risk 20 min role for him). When the Wolves actually signed him, I felt obligated to try to be more optimistic, but I just don't see enough chance of success to get emotionally invested. It is literally like buying a lottery ticket- you start daydreaming about what would happen if it paid off, knowing full well that it is not going to pay off. As for fit, I think he would be best served to run the second unit. The backup PGs (Ridnour and Barea) are both solid shooters and neither creates as well as Roy off the dribble. You don't want him compromising Rubio, but he can still provide offensive value with a less-stellar second unit.

Overpaying Batum makes more sense to me. His growth has not been great so far, but he is still young and has an opportunity to develop further. Paying him $11-$12m to do what he has done so far would be a gross overpay, but he would probably still be the team's third best player and would be playing a position that has been a huge weakness for several years. On top of that, I would rather overpay him than spend that money on a combination of Courtney Lee, Greg Stiemsma, and Jordan Hill. Even though those guys are fine, none of them are going to radically change the team in the way that Batum could if he takes a step forward. Given that he is a standstill shooter/slasher, playing in a regimented offense with Andre Miller then Ray Felton is naturally going to suppress his offense. Plus, Adelman loves having a sharpshooter as an outlet in his offense (Peja, Martin).

I am assuming Portland matches, and if they do, that other combo of guys will work fine to keep them team moving in the right direction, but it really narrows the opportunity to add a difference maker to Derrick Williams developing as a three or trading Derrick Williams for someone who fits.

Agree, that sounds like a better trade. And even though there's upside, it's not like Dragic, Gordon, Gortat guarantee you 50 wins a year to devalue the picks.

I doubt they are a playoff team next year. Beyond that, who knows? Things can change very quickly in the NBA.

The west playoffs, for next year:

Favorite: OKC

Strong contenders: Spurs, Lakers, Clippers

Good teams: Memphis, Denver, Utah

After that I think Minnesota has a strong chance to move up into the playoffs. Dallas might hang on, but I could see them falling apart too. I don't expect major improvement from Portland, GS, or Sac. Houston is headed to the lottery. Phoenix could surprise but I would not put money on it.

New Orleans will be an exciting up and coming team filled with potential, but I don't see a playoff spot any time soon. Most rookies just don't play all that well. My guess is Davis will be good, but nowhere near as good as he'll be a few years from now. Austin Rivers will be terrible as a rookie. I'm as sure about that as anything in the NBA. He'll shoot under 37%, turn the ball over too much, and get burned on defense. He might turn into a good player down the road, but next year is going to be a learning experience for him. NOH will probably play him anyway, because they want to develop him, but playing Rivers as a rookie is not going to help you get into the playoffs.

I am assuming Portland matches, and if they do, that other combo of guys will work fine to keep them team moving in the right direction, but it really narrows the opportunity to add a difference maker to Derrick Williams developing as a three or trading Derrick Williams for someone who fits.

I wish the Blazers would take the Derrick Williams move. I know that the previous regime was dead-set on Aldridge as a 4, and a 4 only. Which means there isn't really a fit for Williams. I'd much rather see them run a lineup of LA-Williams-Matthews-Lillard-??? than have a big oaf out there. Maybe Olshey brings some change, but I don't think so.

Big money deals to guys like Batum are what kill you cap wise. Max deal for a guy who's, at best, the third best starter on a contender and a non-All Star? Ouch.

After that I think Minnesota has a strong chance to move up into the playoffs.

No Rubio for half the season is really going to drag them down, though. It's too bad.

Raja Bell is going to be cut free soon. I think he wants to sign with Miami, but he could definitely help a New Orleans team that looks like that.

Raja Bell can't help anyone at this point in his career. He was 10 shades of useless the last 2 years for the Jazz.

[558] Assuming I'm not missing something huge here...if Howard is traded to NotTheNets there's no way he can leave your team for the Nets unless he wants to sign for way under market due to the Nets cap situation.

If the Nets can't land Howard this summer it would seem to be very possible they can figure out a way to have cap space next summer, especially if they're willing to muddle along this year knowing they'll get Howard next. Either way the Net are just an example - Howard wants to play for them now, but who knows in the summer of 2013 given his waffling. The point is that the financial incentives for a superstar between staying with the team that has your Bird rights and going to a new team aren't really that great, especially not in the long run, and that's why nobody wants to be holding disgruntled superstars at the end of their contracts because they know they'll walk. Howard, Carmelo, LeBron was willing to walk, Williams was apparently going to walk, etc.

Agree, that sounds like a better trade. And even though there's upside, it's not like Dragic, Gordon, Gortat guarantee you 50 wins a year to devalue the picks.

True. I think it sounds like the Hawks of the past 5 years or so.

No way. That hugely underrates the Hawks and overrates the Suns. I'm also down on Gordon, so if we go through the same big 3 exercise as the Heat/Nets one above, all 3 Suns are a step or more behind the Hawks top 3 the last 5 years or so. I think I agree with AROM's breakdown on the West next season.

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Nothing really new on the Bulls yet that we didn't know. The Bulls might be trying to trade Watson and Brewer, but I think teams know they'll just be FAs in a week anyway (although both would be useful on their current 1 year deals to many teams, but there are still plenty of useful players available for cheap).

it would seem to be very possible they can figure out a way to have cap space next summer

Not trying to be difficult, but...how? I would think having the Joe Johnson, Deron Williams and Gerald Wallace contracts along with applicable cap holds makes signing Howard impossible. And since NJ is the only team Howard has said/indicated he would extend with/wants to go, doesn't it take some of the risk out of the move to know that he can't go there? I guess what I'm saying is that I get your point, generally, but I'm not sure it applies to the DH12 risk calculus because of NJ's cap situation and Howard's apparent demands/interests.

If the Nets can't land Howard this summer it would seem to be very possible they can figure out a way to have cap space next summer, especially if they're willing to muddle along this year knowing they'll get Howard next.

No, actually it seems virtually impossible considering the moves they've made this summer. None of the big money guys are eligible for amnesty, and just between Wallace, Williams and Johnson they're almost at the cap (about $50mil between the 3 of them). It seems highly unlikely anyone would trade for either Johnson or Wallace - and definitely not just for cap space and they're not going to give Williams away. So, no, there's practically zero chance they'll have any chance of having any cap space next year.

[558] Assuming I'm not missing something huge here...if Howard is traded to NotTheNets there's no way he can leave your team for the Nets unless he wants to sign for way under market due to the Nets cap situation.

Yes, this is the big deal. And I'm surprised more people aren't calling this bluff. Although to be fair, I suppose there could be concern that he whines, signs his max contract, but keeps acting like he did this last year by telling you that you need to then trade him for what is presumably the corpse of Wallace and/or Joe Johnson and subverting the team.

I'm sure you know this, but the Cav's 2009 roster is not the kind of roster that normally gets you 66 wins. I'm still not sure how they did that. It wasn't crazy luck - their pythag was 65-17. Lebron had a great year, but then again he has a great year every year. I think their 2010 roster was better, a team that won 61 games, and both Lebron Miami teams were much better, which won less often than that in the regular season.

That team will get historically beaten up, much like the prime-Orlando teams of the same period because they "didn't have a second banana". Just for that Cleveland team, though, pretty much everyone who got even decent minutes (besides Jawad Williams) was slightly below average or better 82games. They were an incredibly deep team, and had some guys playing over their heads (is Jamarrio Moon in the NBA anymore?). That was also arguably LeBron's best or second best regular season ever. A bench of average players is going to outplay most benches, and a starting lineup of average-ish players around the best player in the world is going to outplay most starting units.

No way. That hugely underrates the Hawks and overrates the Suns.

True, but I was thinking in more of a "just hanging around the middle" type of result than being as good record wise. Really, what kind of end result do the Suns think they're getting? That's a 6 seed if things break right.

I've been very down on him (one of the only ones here) partly because I'm biased against him from college

IDKWTI.

Purdue guy.

That should add more fuel to Lakers fans fire.

Well, The Veto is sort of a political thing for a lot us, me included, so it will be a "talking point." But as I have said a few times, the issue for me about it isn't whether NO came out better off basketball-wise, and never was. I just personally believe that there was deep conflict of interest embedded in the situation, and I don't buy Stern's assurances that it was a "frozen moment in time" and he "thought only about the Hornets." Gilbert's email and Cuban's mouthing off about it while he was planning to try to get Howard and Williams/Paul for his team just add to that.

Cuban is obviously a very smart businessman, a great NBA owner, and is good for the league. Still, I am glad he has, to this point at least, struck out completely on his attempts to get Williams, Paul, Howard and Nash.

WojYahooNBA: Cleveland is out as a third-team trade partner in a possible Orlando-Brooklyn deal for Dwight Howard, sources tell Y! Sports.

He also says if they're going to make a trade, it'll most likely be a direct trade between Orl and Bkn now. Wonder which of the 50 variables was the one that killed the big 4 team deal.

Wonder which of the 50 variables was the one that killed the big 4 team deal.

I would guess Humphries had no intention of taking a 1-year deal and that's all Cleveland wanted him for.

Another factor behind Gordon's desire to play in Phoenix: His brother is on ASU's hoops team after transferring from Liberty.