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Monday, July 02, 2012

OT: NBA basketball July Thread 2012

I estimate that only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what the site is really about: Jim Furtado trolling his own site when he’s bored.

Tripon Posted: July 02, 2012 at 04:21 PM | 2487 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball

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   801. Jimmy P Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:41 AM (#4180882)
Lots of talk here about Portland getting two firsts for Batum. They need to jump on that if it's true.

Added: The Portland soccer moms are of course up in arms about this. The announcers and media have pushed Batum as this superstar for so long that people are just blinded. Listening to them, you'd think he taught Scottie Pippen how to play D.

Also, the Blazers are bringing in two Euros (Claver and Freeland) that Pritchard drafted, and the media's also trying to make a competition between Nolan Smith and Lillard. Um, Nolan Smith sucks.
   802. tshipman Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:57 AM (#4180894)
I wish there were some way to short the Batum bubble. Two firsts??????? That is crazy talk.
   803. Raskolnikov Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:05 AM (#4180900)
But they're two mid-late 1sts. Essentially monopoly money. I'd take Batum if I were Minny.
   804. Booey Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:09 AM (#4180902)
It looks like no one here has taken the bait of the 1992 vs. 2012 Olympic basketball team argument.


I saw that and thought about posting it. Looking at the rosters I think the 1992 team is clearly better, with every member a HOFer except for Laettner. It was truly a team of all time greats, whereas the 2012 version is - as has already been noted - basically just a really good all star team; a few all time greats, and then several more players who are merely very good rather than great.

You're going to beat a team with a starting lineup of Jordan, Magic, Bird, Malone, and Robinson? With a second unit of Barkley, Pippen, Ewing, Stockton, and Drexler? Come on, man.

(feel free to substitute Bird for Pip in the starting lineup if you prefer more D)


   805. Jimmy P Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:19 AM (#4180907)
But they're two mid-late 1sts. Essentially monopoly money. I'd take Batum if I were Minny.


You're betting on Minnesota being pretty good, then. I think they'll make the playoffs, but I'm not putting big money on it. They are going to be without their starting PG for a good portion of the year. They're also going with shooting guards that are Brandon Roy and Chase Budinger. It's an upgrade, but it still isn't great.

Oh, and you have to pay Batum $11 million a year, too. That's a lot of money for your 4th best player.
   806. AROM Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:19 AM (#4180909)
1992 vs 2012 Dream teams:

It's very difficult to stop elite scorers, even if you have elite defenders, without double teaming. Since both teams will have elite scorers on the court, I don't think either team can stop the other. It might come down to who can do more of the scoring from 3, and the 2012 team has the advantage there.

These guys shoot a lot of 3's and are good at it: Durant, Harden, Iggy, Love, Paul. James shot 36% last year, that's not too bad either.

The 1992 team has just 3 guys who shoot a lot of 3's and were good at it: Bird, Mullin, Stockton.

1992 Team's advantage is at center - use Robinson and Ewing (plus Barkley/Malone) to get Chandler into foul trouble. When he sits, the 1992 team has an advantage they can press the way Kevin Garnett did through all the center-less matchups he faced this playoff run before Chris Bosh got back in the lineup.

Also, when Chandler is on the floor you have one player who doesn't command full defensive attention, allowing Robinson or Ewing to help elsewhere.

I think 1992 wins the majority for this reason, but the 2012 team would play tight games with them.
   807. AROM Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:25 AM (#4180919)
Part of the 3 point advantage is that while the rule went into effect in 1979-80, teams didn't really optimize it until about a decade later. Look at Larry Bird - He shot 40% at a decent volume his rookie year, but then stopped shooting it frequently for a few years before taking the shot again later in his career.

All of the 2012 guys grew up with the 3 pointer being a big part of the game. If the 1992 team had grown up around the 3 pointer, I'm pretty sure Magic, Drexler, Jordan, and Pippen would have been consistent threats from long range. Probably not Barkley though. He always shot too many from deep when he was much more efficient going inside. Magic did become a pretty good 3 point guy later in his career, as did Pippen. But Pippen was no threat from 3 in 1992.
   808. Booey Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:25 AM (#4180920)
The 1992 team has just 3 guys who shoot a lot of 3's and were good at it: Bird, Mullin, Stockton.


Jordan and Pippen could shoot 3's too, though maybe not yet by 1992 (too lazy to look it up, sorry).

Edit: Beat me to it, AROM
   809. kpelton Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:26 AM (#4180921)
Every sports talking head is not focusing on that Kobe said the 2012 team "could" beat the 1992 team.

I don't see any reason to criticize Kobe for being confident in his own team, but that doesn't seem to be an accurate description of his statement. Best I can tell, he finished by saying, "It'd be a tough one, but I think we'd pull it out." That's much more would than could.

It's mostly an excuse to discuss the hypothetical for the media, though.
   810. Jimmy P Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:34 AM (#4180927)
Have to hand it to Kobe. He sure knows how to use the media. There was nothing yesterday (there's a good amount today), and he got the press to talk about the Olympic team. Bravo.
   811. andrewberg Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:44 AM (#4180935)
You're betting on Minnesota being pretty good, then. I think they'll make the playoffs, but I'm not putting big money on it.


I think one of the picks offered was someone else's pick, maybe Houston or Memphis? I can't find that now. Either way, the only MN pick was supposedly 2015. It's a risk, but like I have said before, it's one I think a fairly desperate team can be justified to take.

They're also going with shooting guards that are Brandon Roy and Chase Budinger. It's an upgrade, but it still isn't great.


Don't underestimate Shved-sanity.
   812. JJ1986 Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:47 AM (#4180937)
A Memphis pick is worth even less than a Minnesota pick.
   813. rr Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:47 AM (#4180939)
Best I can tell, he finished by saying, "It'd be a tough one, but I think we'd pull it out." That's much more would than could.


Sure. He could have just said "No one knows" of course, which is true, but I don't think it is realistic to expect him to say, "They'd beat us." I mostly agree with Jimmy, adding that I would guess Bryant knew that Barkley Magic et al would get asked about it so he was just kind of poking the old guys, particularly with so many people talking about McCallum's book this week.

   814. andrewberg Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4180950)
A Memphis pick is worth even less than a Minnesota pick.


Exactly. The comment I was responding to was about the risk to the Wolves in trading future firsts.
   815. Maxwn Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:06 PM (#4180959)
How'd the T-Wolves get one of our picks? Through Houston? Was it in the Flynn deal?
   816. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:09 PM (#4180960)
I could go for shved talk myself. First impression: dragic meets Rudy Fernandez
(apparently, I can only use euro comps)

Min - half desperate team, half desperate GM
   817. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:13 PM (#4180964)
Re: Dream Team versus 2012 Rich Man's All Stars

ESPN ran some sort of stat based simulation that said the Dream Team won something like 53% of the time by an average margin of...1 point. It was somewhere on TrueHoop I believe.
   818. rr Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4180973)
Hennigan, the source said, based his plea on the fact that he was new to the organization and had not been party to the issues that drove Howard to make his trade request.

Team president Alex Martins, who also was on the call, the source said, made a similar plea to Howard last winter when Martins took control of basketball decisions over GM Otis Smith and coach Stan Van Gundy.

Howard was not willing to change his stance, the source said.

"I already heard that from the other guy on the phone," said Howard, according to the source.


http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8159324/dwight-howard-nixes-orlando-magic-gm-rob-hennigan-new-plea-source-says
   819. Jimmy P Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:25 PM (#4180977)
We'll see. But I don't think it makes much sense to rule out the one place Howard said he wants to go.


Howard pretty much can't go to the Nets until January now.

Howard got himself into this mess. I don't know what he was thinking opting-in. He'd be in Brooklyn by now if he hadn't done that.
   820. Raskolnikov Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:39 PM (#4180993)
I like Minny's team. Let's say they go with Pekovic-Love-Williams-Batum-Rubio, and all the breaks go the right way.

Pekovic - continues to develop - 15-10 guy, great at crashing the boards. Above-average to borderline-all star center.

Love - continues to develop - top 5 All-NBA guy, the franchise, 25ppg, 14 rpg. Crunch time scorer.

Williams - makes the leap - 3-pt sharpshooting small forward, great rebounder for his position, average defender.

Batum - continues to improve - 40% three point shooter, main perimeter defender. Decent all-around game.

Rubio - another jump in performance - Floor general, top 5 assist guy, above average defender. All-Star PG.


I think that's a championship contender.
   821. Tripon Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4180998)
Howard got himself into this mess. I don't know what he was thinking opting-in. He'd be in Brooklyn by now if he hadn't done that.


Well, Howard claims he was 'blackmailed' into it by the Magic's ownership. Howard seems to gravitate towards bad advice. Compare it to the Chris Paul trade rumors a year ago, Paul just said he wanted out, and he would have played anywhere for a year *and* he didn't mention that he wouldn't re-sign. Howard with his public "Trade me to the Nets" is just making everything else harder.
   822. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:43 PM (#4180999)
Think u need batum at the three and Williams as 6th man there
Best case scenario has a healthy Roy as the guy who can be a slasher - otherwise missing
   823. JJ1986 Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:46 PM (#4181003)
Well, Howard claims he was 'blackmailed' into it by the Magic's ownership.


I wonder how they blackmailed him. "Sign this contract or we'll trade you to the Bobcats."
   824. Raskolnikov Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:53 PM (#4181008)
Not that I like SVG. Basically, Howard publicly fired SVG, then publicly refused to play for him (depending on how one intreprets his actions). How many times has this happened in sports history?
   825. rr Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:57 PM (#4181010)
I am biased about it, but I think at this point that the Bynum (with extension)/HOU Howard/Lakers and picks/cap relief/Magic scenario makes some sense for all three teams.

Even if Howard walks, he could arguably be worth a rental, given where the Lakers are and what they need, and they could get some use out of Turkoglu or Richardson. Morey is smart, so I think it is safe to assume that he has a specific, multi-step plan he can put in place for trying to keep Howard, but in the end it will come down to Howard (and IMO Paul) making a choice, and Morey can't control that. Bynum has a couple of big negatives and maybe Houston doesn't really want him (Orlando doesn't appear to) but he is huge, coordinated, and can score down low, and guys like that are still tough to find and help a team a lot. And Howard, as great as he is, is coming off back surgery and has a couple of holes in his game himself.

As to Minnesota, I said last year that they have the pieces in place to get to the 50-win level if things work out, and I still think that is the case. I wouldn't project anything beyond that, however.
   826. Jimmy P Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:59 PM (#4181013)
Well, Howard claims he was 'blackmailed' into it by the Magic's ownership.


I believe it was Ziller at SB Nation who had a blow-by-blow on what happened leading up to the opt-in. The gist was that Howard's an idiot and is just now realizing he made a mistake.

I heard on the radio today that Howard and Williams wanted to play together and have been talking about it for 4 years, but now Williams is just ready to move on since Howard is so indecisive.
   827. JJ1986 Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:03 PM (#4181020)
Batum signed his offer sheet, so there won't be a S&T.
   828. Booey Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:06 PM (#4181026)
I like Minny's team. Let's say they go with Pekovic-Love-Williams-Batum-Rubio, and all the breaks go the right way.


I think that's a championship contender.


I'm not seeing it. If everything breaks the right way, I think they're a low seed that loses in the first round. If things don't fall into place perfectly, they're out of the playoff picture entirely. Basically, I see the Wolves as being in the exact same spot the Jazz are in.

Now, if Brandon Roy was at his 2008 form, then yes, I could see this team making some noise.
   829. Tripon Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:07 PM (#4181029)
I wonder how they blackmailed him. "Sign this contract or we'll trade you to the Bobcats."


From what I heard it was more like "Pick up your opt-in or we will trade you to a team that meets our trade demands." Worst case, he would have played for two and a half months with a playoff contender. Howard's just a frigging idiot.
   830. AROM Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:12 PM (#4181037)
Think u need batum at the three and Williams as 6th man there


Totally agree. Whether it's Roy or somebody else, they need a 2 guard in that lineup. Otherwise they will be out-quicked by 2's and 3's, with Love and Pekovic not good enough at protecting the rim to make up for it.
   831. Raskolnikov Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:21 PM (#4181050)
I think Batum can guard most 2's. Put him on the primary wing player, Rubio on the secondary wing player, and Williams on whoever is left. Anyway, I really like Minny's core - especially with Batum.
   832. Manny Coon Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:34 PM (#4181066)
I'm not seeing it. If everything breaks the right way, I think they're a low seed that loses in the first round. If things don't fall into place perfectly, they're out of the playoff picture entirely. Basically, I see the Wolves as being in the exact same spot the Jazz are in.


Up until Rubio got hurt they were already about as good as the Jazz this past season. Now they are replacing some of the worst wing players around (Beasley, Johnson, Tolliver, Webster, Ellington, were all dreadful last year) in the league with Batum (assuming they get him), Budinger and Roy, that is very pretty significant upgrade. I don't think they are top contender, but I think they up closer to Memphis than Utah. If Roy magically becomes peak Roy again, then maybe they are a contender, but I don't think that happens.
   833. Manny Coon Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:35 PM (#4181068)
Totally agree. Whether it's Roy or somebody else, they need a 2 guard in that lineup. Otherwise they will be out-quicked by 2's and 3's, with Love and Pekovic not good enough at protecting the rim to make up for it.


Budinger seems like the obvious choice there, if they want Williams off the bench and Roy isn't capable.

Or they could continue what they were doing last year with Rubio defending at SG and using Ridnour or Barea next to him.
   834. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:38 PM (#4181071)
Budinger does, I agree. Roy's best used as an off the bench spark (in the 80% recovery scenario) anyway. Or the Rubio at the two on D with an undersized dude at the other spot idea (this is where I like a Lou Williams type, presuming he can be bothered to help against the pick and roll).

Even if you like Batum at the two defensively, it doesn't make sense on offense.
   835. AROM Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:39 PM (#4181072)
I think Batum can guard most 2's. Put him on the primary wing player, Rubio on the secondary wing player, and Williams on whoever is left.


If Rubio guards a wing, who guards the PG?
   836. andrewberg Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:45 PM (#4181077)
Too late now. Batum is no longer a real option. Sounds like Mayo and Lee are realistic possibilities at the 2. Everyone talks about Mayo to Phoenix, but if Minnesota keeps cutting guys out of next year's cap AND follows through on trading one of Barea/Ridnour (since Shved's PG-in-a-pinch skills make one unnecessary), there could be enough money to make it tricky for the Suns.

I'm not even letting myself think about what the team would be like if Roy returns to previous levels, or close to it.

Rubio was a really, really good on-ball defender a year ago, and he's 6'4 with alien arms. He guarded some 2's last year and could probably do it more if necessary. Remember, he spent a lot of time playing next to Ridnour next year, who is immobile, small AND slow.
   837. andrewberg Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:48 PM (#4181080)
Up until Rubio got hurt they were already about as good as the Jazz this past season. Now they are replacing some of the worst wing players around (Beasley, Johnson, Tolliver, Webster, Ellington, were all dreadful last year) in the league with Batum (assuming they get him), Budinger and Roy, that is very pretty significant upgrade. I don't think they are top contender, but I think they up closer to Memphis than Utah. If Roy magically becomes peak Roy again, then maybe they are a contender, but I don't think that happens.


Love is significantly better than anyone on Utah.
   838. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:58 PM (#4181094)
since Shved's PG-in-a-pinch skills make one unnecessary
Doesn't diminish your point, but his numbers suggest that he could straight up play point, if you wanted (though I do consider him a two). I'm more worried about defense and shot selection.
   839. Jimmy P Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:59 PM (#4181095)
Batum is no longer a real option.

That's not necessarily true. They could still work a sign-and-trade, or Portland could just not match. I'm still not 100% sold that Portland is willing to pay $11 million a year for him.
   840. andrewberg Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:02 PM (#4181097)
Doesn't diminish your point, but his numbers suggest that he could straight up play point, if you wanted (though I do consider him a two). I'm more worried about defense and shot selection.


Yeah, I got the same impression from videos/scouting reports about his PG skills, just don't see the need with that team.

That's not necessarily true. They could still work a sign-and-trade, or Portland could just not match. I'm still not 100% sold that Portland is willing to pay $11 million a year for him.


Can't S&T once the offer sheet is signed, and if Portland wasn't going to match, they would have taken the 2 firsts offer.
   841. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:09 PM (#4181106)
just don't see the need with that team.

Agreed.

Can't S&T once the offer sheet is signed

Yup.

The Dream Team would clearly beat the current team, as the '12 version won't have any healthy big men on it (Blake got hurt today).


rumor!
Charlotte likely to sign Sessions today. Makes more sense to me than Augustin, as Sessions can better crossmatch with Kemba.
   842. Booey Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:10 PM (#4181107)
Up until Rubio got hurt they were already about as good as the Jazz this past season. Now they are replacing some of the worst wing players around (Beasley, Johnson, Tolliver, Webster, Ellington, were all dreadful last year) in the league with Batum (assuming they get him), Budinger and Roy, that is very pretty significant upgrade. I don't think they are top contender, but I think they up closer to Memphis than Utah. If Roy magically becomes peak Roy again, then maybe they are a contender, but I don't think that happens.


I don't know. The main thing Minny has over the Jazz is like Berg said, Love is easily better than anyone on Utah's roster. That said, people seem to be expecting Rubio and Batum to develop into more than what they currently are without acknowledging that Favors and Hayward have just as much potential to do the same.

Hope I'm wrong (about both teams), but even if they stay healthy, I don't see either as having a much higher ceiling than 45 wins or so and a 7th or 8th seed. Memphis looks clearly better than both, IMO.
   843. Tripon Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:13 PM (#4181114)
Blake Griffin hurt.

rotoworld per Source: Adrian Wojnarowski on Twitter
Blake Griffin suffered a knee injury during a Team USA scrimmage on Wednesday and will return to Los Angeles to be examined by team doctors.
There’s no flopping in Olympic scrimmages, so this appears to be a very real concern. More details should emerge in the near future, but as of now we don’t even know which knee is hurt. Adrian Wojnarowski is also reporting that Anthony Davis has been summoned to Vegas “immediately” to fill the void left by Griffin. Stay tuned.
Dammit, you guys are right.
   844. Raskolnikov Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:18 PM (#4181121)
I don't know. The main thing Minny has over the Jazz is like Berg said, Love is easily better than anyone on Utah's roster. That said, people seem to be expecting Rubio and Batum to develop into more than what they currently are without acknowledging that Favors and Hayward have just as much potential to do the same.


I like Utah too. Favors/Millsap look like a foundation to build on. I would trade Jefferson for help in the backcourt.
   845. andrewberg Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:23 PM (#4181127)
I like Utah too. Favors/Millsap look like a foundation to build on. I would trade Jefferson for help in the backcourt.


Yeah, I am very high on Favors. I think Utah has lots of room to improve. Ceiling is limited without a true star, and I think that is the potential difference between the teams. The second part of your statement is easier said than done.
   846. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:34 PM (#4181142)
Jerry Zgoda says Glen Taylor says the Batum offer sheet not yet presented to NBA (will at EOB) - stalling to work out a deal w/ POR.
   847. andrewberg Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:37 PM (#4181145)
Jerry Zgoda says Glen Taylor says the Batum offer sheet not yet presented to NBA (will at EOB) - stalling to work out a deal w/ POR.


At this point, I think the chances of getting a deal done are so diminishingly small that it might be more valuable to have the eventual flexibility of getting it done and moving on.
   848. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4181159)
Blake Griffin hurt.


Sports talk radio saying that Anthony Davis will be called on to replace Blake on the Olympic team.
   849. Booey Posted: July 12, 2012 at 03:02 PM (#4181186)
Sports talk radio saying that Anthony Davis will be called on to replace Blake on the Olympic team.


See, now the comparisons to the 1992 team will be even more fair with the 2012 squad having their own guy with no NBA experience to counterbalance Laettner...

The current team was short on bigs to begin with, but with Griffin gone, I'm thinking Malone/Barkley/Robinson/Ewing absolutely dominates them in the paint.
   850. AROM Posted: July 12, 2012 at 03:24 PM (#4181209)
The current team was short on bigs to begin with, but with Griffin gone, I'm thinking Malone/Barkley/Robinson/Ewing absolutely dominates them in the paint.


I don't think it changes much. Griffin doesn't exactly have a great defensive rep. Davis probably a better defender (only reason I say probably is youth/inexperience/need to add muscle, Davis in a few years will absolutely be a better defender than Griffin). Either way the 1992 team is going to dominate in the paint. And here I am talking like I've already got a time machine and can make this matchup happen.

Better question: Is Spain going to completely dominate the USA in the paint, with Ibaka and the Gasol brothers?
   851. Jimmy P Posted: July 12, 2012 at 03:35 PM (#4181217)
Better question: Is Spain going to completely dominate the USA in the paint, with Ibaka and the Gasol brothers?


Maybe, but who's bringing the ball up the floor? USA is just going to put so much pressure out on the wings that inlets won't be easy.

Plus, it's not like Ibaka's some huge bruising offensive player.
   852. Raskolnikov Posted: July 12, 2012 at 03:36 PM (#4181218)
I don't think it changes much. Griffin doesn't exactly have a great defensive rep. Davis probably a better defender (only reason I say probably is youth/inexperience/need to add muscle, Davis in a few years will absolutely be a better defender than Griffin). Either way the 1992 team is going to dominate in the paint. And here I am talking like I've already got a time machine and can make this matchup happen.

They could. But I don't think that's how it would play out. The '92 team's personality wasn't a post-op, in-the-paint team. It was a suffocating D, transition team.

I think it would have been Magic/Jordan/Pippen/Barkley/Robinson vs. Paul/Kobe/Durant/Lebron/Love.

I think both sides would have been freestyling - with the '92 team comfortably ahead with better team chemistry and execution.
   853. andrewberg Posted: July 12, 2012 at 03:44 PM (#4181224)
Better question: Is Spain going to completely dominate the USA in the paint, with Ibaka and the Gasol brothers?


I don't think so. Ibaka doesn't do much in the paint. Chandler is a really good defender, probably better than Marc is offensively. Pau has an advantage over Love, but he doesn't exploit Love's lack of lateral quickness.
   854. Joel W Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:02 PM (#4181238)
As if Lebron couldn't have guarded Barkley or Malone about as well as anybody could hope to.
   855. Jimmy P Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:15 PM (#4181243)
I think the more interesting question was what Barkley addressed: who on this team would've made the 1992. He said Lebron, Kobe, Durant. Isn't there a pretty solid argument for Chris Paul?
   856. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:24 PM (#4181246)
The Bobs withdrew their QO to DJ Augie.
   857. Joel W Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:26 PM (#4181248)
Chris Paul definitely. Injuries really affect the quality of this in my mind. Dwight and D-Wade would make this team feel a lot more competitive.
   858. andrewberg Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4181252)
I think the more interesting question was what Barkley addressed: who on this team would've made the 1992. He said Lebron, Kobe, Durant. Isn't there a pretty solid argument for Chris Paul?


Paul right now is better than Magic was in 1992, but he wouldn't have made the team for external reasons. That's the flaw in that experiment. Plus, who on this team wouldn't make it over Laettner?

Joel- And Rose.
   859. Jimmy P Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:33 PM (#4181253)
Injuries really affect the quality of this in my mind. Dwight and D-Wade would make this team feel a lot more competitive

And Rose.

So, you'd have Howard instead of Blake/Davis. Wade and Rose would probably replace Harden and Iguodala.

That'd be an awesome team.
   860. Yardape Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:33 PM (#4181254)
Isn't there a pretty solid argument for Chris Paul?


That was my first thought too. I mean, Magic and Stockton are good, but I think a healthy Paul probably ranks with them. I also think, in the hypothetical 92-12 matchup, watching Magic and Paul run the shows would be awesome. Paul would be at a huge size disadvantage, but I also struggle to see how Magic would guard Paul. Of course they might just cross-match.
   861. Joel W Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:39 PM (#4181258)
For comparison's sake, WS/48 in year of Olympics:

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI .274
2. David Robinson*-SAS .260
x. Magic Johnson (1991) .251
4. Karl Malone*-UTA .237
5. Clyde Drexler*-POR .223
6. John Stockton*-UTA .215
9. Charles Barkley*-PHI .205
11. Patrick Ewing*-NYK .198
12. Scottie Pippen*-CHI .192
xx. Chris Mullin .155
xx. Larry Bird .159

VS:

1. LeBron James-MIA .298
2. Chris Paul-LAC .278
3. Kevin Durant-OKC .230
4. James Harden-OKC .230
7. Kevin Love-MIN .223
8. Tyson Chandler-NYK .220
xx. Chris Bosh .165
xx. Kobe Bryant .132
xx. Carmelo Anthony .160
xx. Deron Williams .099 (ouch)
xx. Russell Westbrook .163





   862. JJ1986 Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:45 PM (#4181264)
I think the more interesting question was what Barkley addressed: who on this team would've made the 1992. He said Lebron, Kobe, Durant. Isn't there a pretty solid argument for Chris Paul?


If you combine both rosters, I'd probably take: Magic, Stockton, Paul, MJ, Pippen, Bird, Durant, Bron, Malone, Barkley, Ewing and the Admiral. I don't see room for Kobe.
   863. Jimmy P Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4181265)
If you combine both rosters, I'd probably take: Magic, Stockton, Paul, MJ, Pippen, Bird, Durant, Bron, Malone, Barkley, Ewing and the Admiral. I don't see room for Kobe.

If it's 1992 Bird, you can leave him and his walker at home.
   864. andrewberg Posted: July 12, 2012 at 04:54 PM (#4181268)
I'm going to dial it back to when the selections were being made, not who ended up filling the teams.

1. Magic
2. Paul
3. Stockton
4. Rose
5. Jordan
6. Kobe/Wade
7. Lebron
8. Pippen
9. Malone
10. Barkley
11. Robinson
12. Howard
   865. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:04 PM (#4181274)
1. Magic
2. Paul
3. Stockton
4. Rose
5. Jordan
6. Kobe/Wade
7. Lebron
8. Pippen
9. Malone
10. Barkley
11. Robinson
12. Howard


Why do I want Derrick Rose here when I could have Durant instead? I already have three point guards, and Rose isn't a great outside shooter. Durant is more suited to the international game than Rose as well, IMO.
   866. andrewberg Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:11 PM (#4181280)
Why do I want Derrick Rose here when I could have Durant instead? I already have three point guards, and Rose isn't a great outside shooter. Durant is more suited to the international game than Rose as well, IMO.


Good point. I missed Durant. I'd take him over Rose for sure. And maybe over Stockton.
   867. Booey Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:12 PM (#4181281)
1. Magic
2. Paul
3. Stockton
4. Rose
5. Jordan
6. Kobe/Wade
7. Lebron
8. Pippen
9. Malone
10. Barkley
11. Robinson
12. Howard


You'd go with 4 point guards? I like Rose, but I'm not sure he's in the Magic/Stockton/Paul class yet.

Also, is Howard really better than Ewing, or does he just look better by default cuz there aren't any other truly great centers of his era, whereas Ewing was somewhat overshadowed by Olajuwon and Robinson (and later Shaq)?

Edit: cokes and stuff. And if you're adding Durant, I'd dump Rose over Stockton with no hesitation whatsoever. You'd need passers more than another slasher.
   868. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:14 PM (#4181282)
If you combine both rosters, I'd probably take: Magic, Stockton, Paul, MJ, Pippen, Bird, Durant, Bron, Malone, Barkley, Ewing and the Admiral. I don't see room for Kobe.
Really?

PG: Magic, Stockton, Paul
SG: MJ
SF: Pippen, Bird, Durant, Lebron
PF: Malone, Barkley
C: Ewing, Robinson

I'd take Bryant over Stockton or Bird.
   869. Booey Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:17 PM (#4181284)
That's also not a very good 3-pt shooting team, so Stockton's superior outside shooting over Rose would come in handy.
   870. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4181285)
I'd take Bryant over Stockton or Bird.

Yeah, Kobe gets Bird spot if it's 1992. You love having Bird there as a top six all-time guy, but he was barely able to run at this point. Current Kobe is obviously better than last gasp Larry. Plus, Stockton can shoot. (cokes)

Can't believe I just typed that. Going to go take a shower.
   871. Booey Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:22 PM (#4181291)
Injuries really affect the quality of this in my mind. Dwight and D-Wade would make this team feel a lot more competitive

And Rose.


Again, do you really need 4 point guards? Rose, Paul, Williams, and Westbrook? Seems like overkill to me.
   872. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:22 PM (#4181293)
Don't feel bad, Joe. Bird loves Kobe, too.
   873. rr Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:28 PM (#4181298)
1. Magic
2. Paul
3. Stockton
4. Rose
5. Jordan
6. Kobe/Wade
7. Lebron
8. Pippen
9. Malone
10. Barkley
11. Robinson
12. Howard


How does this group stack up with Elton Brand/Lou Williams era 76ers?
   874. Booey Posted: July 12, 2012 at 05:34 PM (#4181302)
1. Magic
2. Paul
3. Stockton
4. Rose
5. Jordan
6. Kobe/Wade
7. Lebron
8. Pippen
9. Malone
10. Barkley
11. Robinson
12. Howard


So yeah, my final changes to this would be: dump Rose for Durant, change Kobe/Wade to just Kobe (2012 Wade isn't quite what he used to be), and probably replace Howard with Ewing (but only cuz Olajuwon isn't eligible).

Edit: 8 of 12 from the original Dream Team, even when you consider guys like Howard, Wade, and Rose, who aren't actually on the current team. Barkley made a good point.
   875. steagles Posted: July 12, 2012 at 06:32 PM (#4181323)
How does this group stack up with Elton Brand/Lou Williams era 76ers?
I don't know that they have enough offensive talent to score on the sixers' vaunted defense. and i think david robinson would have problems keeping up with spencer hawes on the defensive end of the floor.

really, the re-dream team would have to be considered underdogs. 35/65 in a 7 game series, and i think that's being generous.
   876. Jimmy P Posted: July 12, 2012 at 06:40 PM (#4181327)
Again, do you really need 4 point guards? Rose, Paul, Williams, and Westbrook? Seems like overkill to me.


Then Deron stays home.
   877. Booey Posted: July 12, 2012 at 07:09 PM (#4181340)
Again, do you really need 4 point guards? Rose, Paul, Williams, and Westbrook? Seems like overkill to me.


Then Deron stays home.


Yeah, he'd currently be the one I'd leave off too. If he can get back to his 2008-2010 level of play, then it becomes a more difficult decision.
   878. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 12, 2012 at 07:36 PM (#4181351)
Scola amnestied - HOU is going all in on this change business.

Conflicting reports on whether BRK wants to keep Hump - my thought is 'of course they do'.
   879. rr Posted: July 12, 2012 at 07:54 PM (#4181367)
Well-played, STEAGLES.

Daryl Morey: The Billy Beane of the NBA, a genius, or somewhere in between?
   880. Zipperholes Posted: July 12, 2012 at 08:19 PM (#4181380)
Is there a reason not to use the amnesty? Because I think the Pistons haven't used it yet, and they still have Villanueva at like 2 more yrs for $15.
   881. Tripon Posted: July 12, 2012 at 08:21 PM (#4181381)
You still have to pay for the player, and you can amnesty a contract whenever you want to. You shouldn't do it until you need to make a move at this point.
   882. Zipperholes Posted: July 12, 2012 at 08:23 PM (#4181382)
Thanks. So if you're under the cap, you should wait until you're ready to make a move that would put you over, otherwise it's pointless?
   883. Tripon Posted: July 12, 2012 at 08:28 PM (#4181385)
Pretty much.
   884. smileyy Posted: July 12, 2012 at 08:36 PM (#4181392)
What does the salary cap do that a sufficiently progressive luxury tax wouldn't do better?

Edit: ...and without all of this bizarro market distortion and swapping cape space instead of players
   885. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 12, 2012 at 09:05 PM (#4181405)
Imagine what Brooklyn would do with no cap
That said, I prefer progressive taxation too

Scola is essentially unclaimable via amnesty, due to technicality (same reason min darko bid is 2mil, nonguaranteed salary provision). Wonder where he goes as a FA?

Edit: darko min is actually 3.9m
   886. smileyy Posted: July 12, 2012 at 09:08 PM (#4181407)
Imagine what Brooklyn would do with no cap


What would they do that would be bad for the NBA? I mean, I think that all depends on the definition of "sufficiently progressive". I don't mind a team with a $150M payroll if they're paying e.g. $250M in luxury tax to the rest of the league.
   887. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 12, 2012 at 09:11 PM (#4181408)
I do
   888. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 12, 2012 at 09:36 PM (#4181421)
Correction on Scola - you can spread non guaranteed amount over the length of the contract, so min bid ~3.4m per for 3 yr
Think darko min is ~2m after all accordingly
   889. Tripon Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:40 PM (#4181479)
I think it would have been amusing to see the 2000's Knicks in an era of no salary cap, especially with Isiah Thomas as the GM. I think we would have seen the first billion dollar team. And I mean per year.
   890. Spivey Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:43 PM (#4181481)
The refs are letting the US team get physical on perimeter pressure, and when that is the case they can be absolutely suffocating.
   891. Spivey Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:45 PM (#4181483)
I watch Iguodala play for the US team and I can't help but think he's a poor man's Pippen that is being asked to do too much. I think he could legitimately be the 2nd best player on a contender, or the 3rd best player on a dynasty type team.
   892. JJ1986 Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:10 PM (#4181488)
Alex Kennedy:

As @EricPincus pointed out, the Rockets' official Twitter account just followed Dwight Howard, Jason Richardson, Glen Davis and Chris Duhon.
   893. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:11 PM (#4181489)
891 - yuuuuuuuup
   894. Tripon Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:31 PM (#4181495)
Blake Griffin has meniscus tear in left knee, to have surgery, will be ready for season, no Olympics, LA Times story:latimes.com/sports/sportsn…

— Brad Turner (@BA_Turner) July 13, 2012
   895. smileyy Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:41 PM (#4181499)
If only CP3 and Griffin could share their collective two mensicuses.
   896. andrewberg Posted: July 13, 2012 at 12:38 AM (#4181531)
Blake should get a new meniscus and give this old, damaged one to Roy.
   897. steagles Posted: July 13, 2012 at 12:59 AM (#4181539)
I watch Iguodala play for the US team and I can't help but think he's a poor man's Pippen that is being asked to do too much. I think he could legitimately be the 2nd best player on a contender, or the 3rd best player on a dynasty type team.
i had a similar revelation after watching him play with the national team in the 2010 world championships. he is just a completely different player when he's surrounded by similarly talented players.
   898. JC in DC Posted: July 13, 2012 at 07:39 AM (#4181582)
I think if I'm the Knicks, I'd rather have Scola at that price than Amare. That's impossible, right?

Re Dream Team v. the New Team: these comparisons are fun, but isn't it a bit unfair to the new guys to make the comparison rest on an older way of playing? That is, there's a lot of "who's going to guard the paint, who's gonna bang with Ewing, Robinson, etc?", but the reason there are so few guys now capable of doing that is the game is so different. It may be just as fair to ask, "How do you keep those guys on the floor against Durant, LBJ, Wade, etc.?" Was Brad Sellers still in the league?
   899. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 13, 2012 at 09:11 AM (#4181614)
898: Only possible if Scola slips through amnesty waivers - in which case he may go elsewhere. (And you'd still have Amar'e.)

iggy - but isn't that what we've been saying about him (in these threads) for years? Or, at least, a corollary of it - it's not that Iguodala's not really good, it's that people are looking for him to play "like a star player", whereas his virtues are in his ability to complement other players: great defense, great playmaking (relative to position), competent three point shooting, etc... - but not a classic scorer.

One issue I have with attempts like Joel's 861 (not criticizing you Joel) is that we're penalizing the present day dudes for playing in a league with a greater foreign presence. The Luis Scolas of the world were less likely to be in the league back then.
   900. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: July 13, 2012 at 09:23 AM (#4181617)
One issue I have with attempts like Joel's 861 (not criticizing you Joel) is that we're penalizing the present day dudes for playing in a league with a greater foreign presence. The Luis Scolas of the world were less likely to be in the league back then.


It must be era adjusted!
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