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Big win for DEN over OKC, but I didn't catch any of the game.
[501]
Well, he can't use his weird Frenkenstein-esque arms to coach it.
I also loved the Lebron tweets. He's right.
Bulls scored 12pts in the 2nd quarter and 13 in the 3rd. Somehow they exploded for 29 in the 4th with a Robinson/Bellinelli/Butler/Gibson/Boozer lineup. Forced to game into OT (it was their 3rd straight OT game), but ran out of gas and lost by 3. I wasn't very impressed by what I saw out of Memphis, but I couldn't exactly put my finger on one thing that was wrong.
Butler actually put up a pretty decent Deng impression, too: 48min (of course), 18pts, 8reb, 3ast, 3stl, 1TO and he held Gay to bad shooting night (6 of 19). Big story was that Thibs benched Noah for the last 25 minutes of the game - including subbing in Nazr Mohammed instead of Noah when Gibson fouled out. There really hasn't been anything explained since (Thibs doesn't say anything and Noah hasn't talked).
Bulls/Lakers tonight. Probably will be ugly to watch.
With Butlers play against Mem. I hope he plays more. Also get teague on the court a lot more I am sick of robinson
Teague isn't ready yet. It's painfully obvious when he's forced into games (like when he was subbing in for defense against Boston once Hinrich fouled out). I think he could develop into a decent player eventually, but he isn't helping them now. I understand how NateRob can be frustrating - but you gotta take the good with the bad.
With endorsement from the coach:
Thibs said Rose will likely get cleared for full contact practice this week.
That said, the Thunder got called for illegal picks on 2 of their last 3 possessions, allowing Denver to hang on.
The Nuggets played aggressive and played tough the entire game. It was a legit win, and with the fouls called as unbalanced as they were, they could have just have easily done it on the road.
Of course, means absolutely nothing for when they take the floor the next game.
Which teams have the cash and room to give him what he wants though? The new CBA basically makes it hard to get a player with Dwight's financial demands.
poor guy - this was his shot at being an all star (14.1/14.4/3.4 - career highs for each were last year (also in 25 games) 10.8/11.5/1.7)
He is better at it than many of his peers, so even if we live in a FT friendly era, it is still a strength.
yearly averages
kobe's 3rd in the league behind durant and lebron; last is austin rivers ... wow, has he been bad (per of 5.6 and he's not in there for his defense)
Memphis trades Speights to CLE for Leuer and Selby.
Marreese Speights, Josh Selby, Wayne Ellington and a future draft pick to the Cavs for Jon Leuer. (rotoworld)
Something that Bulls, Knicks, Lakers and Magic fans (if Magic fans existed) all agree on is that Duhon is pretty much awful to watch. He's not great, and he's not really terrible at any one thing, but he's also not really good at anything. I posted that after he took a 30ft 3 with 5 seconds left on the shot clock.
The Lakers are playing as well as can be expected, but the Bulls are on fire from the arc, and Kobe wasn't kidding about those dead legs.
Most of the made 3's were wide open. The Bulls don't get many open looks, which is why they make so few. The Lakers defense and defensive rotation was terrible (a lot of that was Howard last night). The fluke last night was Hinrich, but Nash was "defending" him and Hinrich kept easily shaking him.
Yikes.
i am no b-ball guy but from a distance i see some talent and a lot of grinders which in pro sports can make you .500 because most pro athletes don't give a full effort every game. if your team does that's an edge
BTW, I want to give some credit to Jimmy Butler here again. He played another great defensive game, 43 mins (Kobe played 42; I don't think Kobe was on the court at all w/o Butler hounding him). He's had good defensive stretches this year also against bigger guys like Melo and LeBron. I said before he should get more minutes, and he can play the 2, so he should play with Deng and not exclusively be his backup.
I was also amused that Steve Kerr fell into the "Hinrich looks like he should be a good shooter" trap.
I'm not a fan, and haven't been for a while. Boylan was an awful interim here in Chicago (and I wasn't a fan of Skiles by the end either). I've been one of the more vocal anti-fans of Jennings for a while; never really liked Ellis and think he's a terrible fit. I like Sanders, and there's some other acceptable but not necessarily noteworthy pieces. They have 2 other grindier teams in their division that are also more talented, but there's enough dreck in the East to stay around .500.
Seeing as how Philly keeps shooting themselves in Andrew Bynum's knee, it looks like that have a clearish path to make the playoffs. But they'll be lucky to win a game once there.
Others here like them more than me though.
he's a flawed player. how can he not be when he's maybe 5'9" in a game filled with people 6'7", etc
It sounds like that plus the prorated minimum salaries they will take on will keep them under the tax for the rest of the year, relevantly meaning that Gay is probably off the trade market until at least the summer. In that respect, it is a good trade. Even though I think Gay is probably a little overrated, they are better off keeping that starting 5 intact for a playoff run. On top of that, they don't disrupt their bench rotation all that much except for Ellington, on whom they probably sold high anyway. It isn't so much that this trade was brilliant, but it prevented them from doing something much more damaging.
boy he looks short in person. if he's 6 feet all i'm a hobbit
Harv, you should quit your day jobs and become a straight man.
The pick going to CLE has similar lottery protections to that of the HOU/TOR deal - it's a non-high lottery pick. Nice job Cleveland!
Besides, Brandon Jennings is an outlier - Jeremy Tyler might be considered more of a "success" story.
Put a different way - how does your idea benefit Olowokandi?
So far we've only seen Jennings and Tyler go that route. It's arguable both hurt their draft stock by doing that instead of college (both struggled adjusting to moving from HS to being a pro and to being in a foreign country). Also, your last couple sentences are a different argument/discussion and is from the perspective of NBA teams and not individuals. College weeds plenty of guys out too (Jereme Richmond, for one), and there are still plenty of busts that have come from overseas pro ball.
In theory, I do like the idea and wish it was tried more, but because I think the NCAA is a joke and not because I think it's "better". I think going into certain systems (like Calipari's) arguably helps players quite a bit (Davis would have gone #1 out of HS, too, but Rose wouldn't have).
Is Tyler a success? Wasn't he pretty high profile before he went (and not just because he went)? IOW, would he have gone higher if he stayed and went to say, UCLA or something, instead?
Maybe, but not for the reason he states. $525 million represents how much the new owners value a NBA team in a new arena in Seattle (and may be taking a lower expected ROI to bring a team back to their local market) in the new-CBA climate, not how much money the owners, as a whole, make. And of course, part of the lockout was the smaller market owners trying to claw some revenue out of the larger markets. Sure, Lebron and the players were collateral damage to that, but can he not recognize all the moving parts here, and not just lazily pick out the one that gives the union the best PR?
Huh...I guess he's improved a lot since he left Dayton.
Ok, to be fair, there's a big difference in choices when you're the #1 or #2 option in an offense, vs. the #4 or #5 option.
The previous offer for a new arena (by the OKC group, FWIW) asked for $300MM out of $530MM, with no repayment. The Schultz ownership group wanted to renovate KeyArena, and was willing to put up about $20MM out of the $220MM, again without specific repayment. There's no comparison to the current offer.
I think that's a feature, not a bug.
Per BB-Ref, he made $37.9mil in his career. If he busts out in Europe, he's unlikely to make 10% of that. So again, how does he benefit there?
Also, part of the owners' PR campaign during the lockout was that they could not not sustain growth in franchise value without a major overhaul of their salary expenditure structure. You point out a lot of appropriate caveats, but if franchise values are now exploding and owners were willfully keeping franchises out of the ideal markets before the lockout, then that calls into serious question whether they really risked losing value under the old system.
In other words, the owners said that the lockout was about their survival. This sale makes it look like it was purely about profit.
Right, its PR, which is why I responded as such to someone saying "he's right". He's not necessarily "right" (though, again, he may be), he's just toeing the union line.
He's not making the trip because he was injured in his argument with the executive. He's out 2-4 weeks with a bad back.
I love that I have no idea whether this is true or not.
I'm not sure if I should call Tyler a success or not. Probably would've gone higher under the old system, but he's had more of a an NBA career than I thought he would back in his BJ league days (that's a real thing, folks).
ESPN articles are saying merely that the Kings have been valued at $525 million - there's no mention of whether that means "the Kings in Seattle" or just "the Kings" (though I very much suspect the latter, given that the move to Seattle hasn't even been applied for or approved yet), but even so they're not getting a team with a new arena in Seattle. They're getting the Kings who are in Sacramento who as of this moment have no new arena in Seattle. They have to build the stadium (as Kevin details above, at $290 million), i.e. that $525 is pretty much entirely what they value the team alone at, plus some amount of relocation fees (does anyone have any idea what they are?). In short, it is indeed as LeBron says a pretty good time to own an NBA team.
There's an inherent problem with talking about "market value" of NBA teams because they change hands so infrequently, and it's not like there's an option to just start your own team. So supply and demand are pretty fluid, especially the supply of teams that are capable of moving the following season. If not the Kings, the Seattle ownership group would have to wait years to bring a team here, by which point the arena deal may no longer be viable. So they were willing to pay a significant premium for certainty.
That has struck me through this process, as well. After the initial reports of Hansen's deal trickled out and Sacramento started making a push to raise a "fair" counter-offer, my first idea was that Hansen better make the full price offer with no shortcuts if he wants a team in Seattle, because trifling over a small percentage of the total value could submarine deal with no alternative in sight.
Somewhere between incredibly favorable to Philly and the steal of the century. Now let me actually look at it.
EDIT: Even for you, this is a laugher.
Is this a premium though? They're just saying the new ownership group is paying the valuation of the team (whatever that means). I think you're probably right though as you and Andrew point out that the timing of the whole thing (they have to get the relocation papers in by March 1 as well) means they put aside the dickering and just agreed to buy the whole thing at retail price right out of the gate.
I'm also unsure why the Rockets seem to fear using their sub so much, most seem to be quite decent, for all the hate Tony Douglas gets he's actually quietly putting up a decent season , though Greg Smith's ability to almost foul out every game within 15 min is annoying. especially since he's per 36 min is actually a double double.
Also I'm not sure why Donatas Motiejunas and Terrance Jones get so few minutes when the team's power forward spot is obviously not in great shape. though I guess maybe it's because they don't shoot 3 balls.
Maybe the use of the term "valuation" is where we're getting signals mixed. The reason it's being used here is that the Seattle group is not buying the Kings outright; they're buying 65% of the team (the controlling amount owned by the Maloofs, who will apparently retain some small share, and another minority investor). So the amount they're actually paying (about $340MM) implies that the entire franchise is worth $525MM -- hence the valuation.
DEEEE-troit Basketball! EDIT - 4 games back! Catch the fever!
I don't watch Jennings much, but I do like him. I'd like to see the Bucks trade Ellis for a big man (Al Jefferson?).
We're clear on that - I'm questioning whether there is any premium involved. I don't see how from what's being reported that there is. If the valuation is $525 million, and the Seattle group is paying that number by percentage of the shares they're purchasing, where's the theoretical "moving to Seattle" premium? I don't see anything in there - from the data we have it looks like the Kings are worth $525 million flat out.
EDIT: To get even more specific, the Maloofs have a pretty big incentive to sell - they need money, as everyone knows. If they don't sell the franchise now and the March 1 deadline passes then the Kings can't relocate in 2013-14, yet their lease is up in Sacramento (right?). So they'd need to renegotiate with the city to play that season in Sacramento and possibly have to sign a multi-year lease, being stuck in Sacramento for the foreseeable future. Which of course doesn't work for the ownership team in Seattle and potentially other ownership groups. $525 is a pretty sweet valuation - it seems reasonable they'd sell for the market price if they could get it right now and not risk the downside of getting stuck with the team in Sacramento for the next few years. Both sides have an incentive for this to happen fast, which means meeting at a price they both can swallow and justify to themselves and their partners.
I came here to specifically post about the Pistons. I love Andre Drummond and Greg Monroe, especially Drummond. There's potential for a dominant frontcourt and that's a great thing to have.
Everyones top 3 MVP so far? I'm assuming everyone has it of some combination of Durant, Lebron, and CP3 as the top 3, and Duncan should be 4th.
That's $75 million -- one-sixth -- more than any NBA franchise has ever sold for before (Golden State last year), and while again there aren't a lot of data points, it seems unlikely that even in Seattle the Kings are worth that much more than the Warriors in the Bay.
I'd say no, which actually helps my original point. As a Warriors fan, Oakland's not that great of a market for the Warriors, which is why they're moving to SF - they don't get a ton of corporate sponsorship, which they will be getting after they move. Perhaps the Warriors were purchased with the understanding that they would be moved fairly swiftly to SF - likely so. Are the Kings worth $75 million more in Seattle in than the Warriors in San Francisco? I'd say no. Then what's changed between now and July 2010? The CBA. The Warriors may have been sold under the promise that the CBA would be amended, but that's discounted for cost certainty. The costs are certain now.
I'll amend my statement - I see what you mean about the Seattle bonus, if indeed that's how the valuations work (though it would be interesting to get confirmation of this). The Warriors sold as a terrible team in a poor city in a dilapidated stadium with a good escape route for $450 million in July 2010. The Kings are selling today as a terrible team in a poor city in a dilapidated stadium with a good escape route for $525 million (with some relocation fees included, so drop that number a little bit). The original question was essentially whether it was fair to say the sale of the Kings was a bullet point against the lockout, or whether it was more of a PR jab. I'd say yes, it is a valid point. There are other moving parts, but I'd guess those are largely swamped by the differences in the CBA.
I guess the money question would be what do we think the Kings would sell for to a group that would keep the team in Sacramento? Versus what would they have sold for in July 2010 to a group that would keep them in Sacramento? Discounting for inflation and such.
but he's a servicable backup shooting guard / 1-on-1 defensive guy. another example of someone being pushed into playing something they're not good at, instead of using what they are good at.
sort of the anti-earl weaver...
word around town is that skiles was just really negative the whole season and wehn ilyasova didn't come out of the gate hitting shots skiles cut back on his time and it became a cycle of frustration.
i don't know a d8mn thing but i would not be surprised if at some point we learn of a personal issue with skiles. he was in a bad mood all the time, was really harsh on different players and then went to management about being let go.
i hope whatever it is he manages to come out the other side ok. cause right now scott skiles is in a bad place for whatever reason
Bulls/Pistons tonight:
i don't know how someone looks at the effort jennings gives and doesn't at least appreciate how hard he's working
Sorry, there's nothing notable about his effort to me and I don't enjoy his game. That's on me though.
i don't know a d8mn thing but i would not be surprised if at some point we learn of a personal issue with skiles. he was in a bad mood all the time, was really harsh on different players and then went to management about being let go.
Yes, like DK says, that's Skiles for you. That's exactly what happened in Phoenix and Chicago.
Yeah, not expecting much out of Detroit tonight or really the playoffs. Schedule is getting tougher. If they win some of these games against playoff teams in the next week I'll start to get my hopes up, though.
Am I wrong to not be worked up that Drummond isn't playing more? Seems to be the thing to be that Pistons fans are angry about. Obviously when he's on the court he's making a huge impact, but he's 19 and I'm ok with them slowly increasing his minutes.
I think his shooting rates last year were/are a little unsustainable, too.
As for Jennings - he's a nice player and plays hard, though not abnormally so. But he seems to pout occassionally and expect more star calls than he gets (or should get). As far as playing hard goes, I'd actually give the nod to Ellis. I've been pretty impressed with his motor. Yeah, he doesn't deserve a max contract, but he shouldn't be blamed for that.
chris paul
russell westbrook
tony parker
kyle lowery (limited time)
kyrie irving
jose calderon
stephen curry
kemba walker
jrue holiday
rajon rondo
deron williams
brandon jennings
then i look at age. the only guys above younger than jennings are irving, walker and holiday. and my understanding is that irving is something of a prodigy
some of you guys sound like tough graders.
but i don't claim to know basketball
Sorry, but being in the top half (at the bottom) of starting PGs just isn't that impressive.
wasn't claiming he was uber awesome. and it would make sense that folks would take the others over jennings given that their play has been superior.
just reads like the kid can play. and has the chance to get even better if there is anything to aging curves
and if it's a golden age for point guards then in a different time jennings is perceived differently though i am not making that claim. just saying
boy he must have spit on your spats as you typically are not so negative on player
He's an above average player, and although my comments may read as negative towards him, they're not. We also talked a bit on this page about him choosing to go to Europe instead of college, and I wish it had gone better for him and that would have led to others trying to go that route too instead of the NCAA.
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