Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Wednesday, January 02, 2013

OT NBA Monthly Thread—January 2013

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: the fiscal cliff and Civil War generals.

baudib Posted: January 02, 2013 at 01:16 AM | 1049 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, off-topic

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 7 of 11 pages ‹ First  < 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 > 
   601. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:09 PM (#4353276)
moses

ok
   602. andrewberg Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:43 PM (#4353324)
What are these insane trade rumors with Howard going to NJ, Kevin Love going to LAL, and Lopez going to Minnesota? Has Love's stock fallen that much that the Wolves would be happy to exchange him for Lopez? That seems way off to me.


Those rumors started with the Nets. Unless the Wolves had already traded Pekovic, that trade would be even dumber than it looks on its face. I will say that the problem with Lopez is health, not performance. His return to form and ability to stay in the lineup has been what has made the Nets good this year, and it is where I was most wrong in projecting them.
   603. Manny Coon Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:44 PM (#4353327)
so i go to basketball reference and pull up per which sounds like a reasonable stat and list the point guards in descending order

chris paul
russell westbrook
tony parker
kyle lowery (limited time)
kyrie irving
jose calderon
stephen curry
kemba walker
jrue holiday
rajon rondo
deron williams
brandon jennings


This list seems incomplete, Eric Bledsoe, Ramon Sessions and John Wall are all higher as well. Wall and Bledsoe are both younger than Jennings.
   604. andrewberg Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:49 PM (#4353339)
This list seems incomplete, Eric Bledsoe, Ramon Sessions and John Wall are all higher as well. Wall and Bledsoe are both younger than Jennings.


I hate to be so predictable, but I'd at least consider Rubio.

Mike Conley belongs on that list, too. I'd take him above Jennings and I like Jennings.

Not sure I agree with your assessment of Kemba, Moses. He has made strides this year and seems to be starting to understand where he can get his shot. He has a chance to have a Jason Terry career, although I concede your point about his defense.
   605. Squash Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:52 PM (#4353347)
Those rumors started with the Nets.

That sounds right. Does that trade really work for anyone other than the Nets? Love doesn't seem like the player the Lakers need at all, particularly with D'Antoni in the fold, and what's the compelling reason why Minnesota would prefer Lopez over Love, unless if they're firing an extreme advance shot about Love leaving. (Though I agree Lopez seems to have greatly improved this year - given Love's injury woes and the fact that he's just not a great shooter, I think they're a lot closer in value than people think.)
   606. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:55 PM (#4353348)
####, yes, add Rubio and Conley ahead of Jennings. Bledsoe could be, but I would still like to see more out of him. I would not consider Sessions ahead of Jennings.

I was a little quick to dismiss Kemba. I hadn't realized he'd been *that* good this year. He's definitely been better than Jennings offensively. So now I don't know who'd I'd prefer between the 2 of them.
   607. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 23, 2013 at 01:11 PM (#4353365)
list courtesy of basketball reference website. there were guys with much fewer minutes listed who i did not include

and i went by designation of point guard. maybe site had some players listed incorrecly
   608. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 23, 2013 at 01:12 PM (#4353367)
or i read incorrectly
   609. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 23, 2013 at 01:26 PM (#4353378)
No, you read fine. Just the limitations of picking one stat.

Rubio was hurt (coming back from an ACL), so he hasn't played all season and hasn't been great yet. Conley's PER is a little lower than Jennings, but the main reason Jennings is higher is because of usage (Jennings plays 3 more minutes a game and shoots/scores more) and PER doesn't include defense (IMO, Conley is better). Overrating usage is one of the main criticisms of PER.

Wall was also hurt, so his minutes are lower. Bledsoe backs up Paul, so he's obviously not playing as much.
   610. Manny Coon Posted: January 23, 2013 at 01:28 PM (#4353382)
####, yes, add Rubio and Conley ahead of Jennings. Bledsoe could be, but I would still like to see more out of him. I would not consider Sessions ahead of Jennings.

I was a little quick to dismiss Kemba. I hadn't realized he'd been *that* good this year. He's definitely been better than Jennings offensively. So now I don't know who'd I'd prefer between the 2 of them.


By ahead on my comment I meant purely by PER. As for who I'd take over Jennings, I agree no to Sessions, but yes to Conley. Rubio has been poor this year, but was better last year, mostly because his defense. Bledsoe's minutes have been limited because of Paul, but he might be best defensive PG in the league, his block/steal/rebound numbers are insane for a guy his size, pretty much completely unprecedented in the history of the NBA and he's a good defender beyond those stats as well.

Kemba seems more a like a small SG, but he's been good this year.

Jennings is pretty good though, he's young and he's improved since coming into the league. Just a lot of good PGs right now.
   611. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 23, 2013 at 01:28 PM (#4353383)
Damian Lillard is another interesting one. It's his rookie year, but he's been really good so far.
   612. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 23, 2013 at 01:30 PM (#4353385)
Kemba seems more a like a small SG, but he's been good this year.

That was my initial thought as well, but his AST rate is actually higher than Jennings this year (both guys are higher than Irving).
   613. smileyy Posted: January 23, 2013 at 01:48 PM (#4353403)
So, uh, which starting PGs would get traded for Jennings in a heartbeat?
   614. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 23, 2013 at 01:51 PM (#4353412)
Love doesn't seem like the player the Lakers need at all, particularly with D'Antoni in the fold
He actually does. A long-range threat who also boards and is a good passer, in a system that de-emphasizes defense? That's got D'Antoni all over it. The thing with Love is that his skill set is good for so many teams, including Minny. There's no reason why they'd even consider trading Love right now.
(Though I agree Lopez seems to have greatly improved this year - given Love's injury woes and the fact that he's just not a great shooter, I think they're a lot closer in value than people think.)
I don't trust Lopez. You can't question his offensive value, but I don't trust his health, I don't trust his rebounding, and I don't trust his defense. You need pretty great perimeter defensive players to make up for defensive weakness at center contend for championships, and it's the rare team that has that.
   615. andrewberg Posted: January 23, 2013 at 01:52 PM (#4353414)
So, uh, which starting PGs would get traded for Jennings in a heartbeat?


Going just off of talent (not contract or a team's scheme), I'd say: Chalmers, Jameer Nelson, Jeff Teague/Devin Harris, Ray Felton (probably), Brandin Knight, possibly George Hill, possibly Jeremy Lin, Darren Collison, Greivis Vasquez (probably), Mo Williams, Isaiah Thomas, possibly Dragic.

We forgot to mention Lawson on the list of guys who are better than him.
   616. andrewberg Posted: January 23, 2013 at 01:53 PM (#4353415)
I don't trust Lopez. You can't question his offensive value, but I don't trust his health, I don't trust his rebounding, and I don't trust his defense. You need pretty great perimeter defensive players to make up for defensive weakness at center contend for championships, and it's the rare team that has that.


Yes, he is playing better, but trading for him now would be an archetypal "buy high" mistake.
   617. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: January 23, 2013 at 02:18 PM (#4353439)
You think getting Lopez now is buying high?
   618. andrewberg Posted: January 23, 2013 at 02:22 PM (#4353445)
You think getting Lopez now is buying high?


In terms of on-court value, for sure. He hasn't played this well and remained healthy this long in, what, four years?
   619. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: January 23, 2013 at 02:35 PM (#4353454)
I'd argue that this is definitely his best year, but he's only 24 and not doing anything that seemed out of his skillset.
   620. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 23, 2013 at 02:36 PM (#4353458)
The point guard discussion makes it pretty clear we are in a good time for the PG. Jennings is a fine PG and no one is saying he isn't, but wow are there a bunch of as good and better PG out there. I love PG play, so I am a happy BBall fan. If only I had time to watch more games.
   621. smileyy Posted: January 23, 2013 at 02:39 PM (#4353463)
Greivis Vasquez


Wow. I didn't know he had a starting PG job. Yikes.
   622. smileyy Posted: January 23, 2013 at 02:40 PM (#4353464)
The point guard discussion makes it pretty clear we are in a good time for the PG. Jennings is a fine PG and no one is saying he isn't, but wow are there a bunch of as good and better PG out there.


This is what I find interesting -- he's very talented, but its looking like he's a below median starter. I'm not sure what it means to have overall league talent at that high of a level...other than that being a very good thing for the NBA.
   623. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: January 23, 2013 at 02:41 PM (#4353465)
GV's having a very nice, albeit erratic, season. They'd take Jennings in a heartbeat.

I'm not sure what it means to have overall league talent at that high of a level...other than that being a very good thing for the NBA.

I think it means, in part, that the job on offense has gotten easier (in the absolute sense) - what with no handchecking and all. Mind you, what matters is relative performance - right?
   624. andrewberg Posted: January 23, 2013 at 02:42 PM (#4353468)
I'd argue that this is definitely his best year, but he's only 24 and not doing anything that seemed out of his skillset.


I am more concerned about his health, but you make a good point that his age is a big factor in his favor.

Forbes released its franchise valuations today. the average team is worth 30% more than it was a year ago as the lockout was coming to an end.
   625. Famous Original Joe C Posted: January 23, 2013 at 02:43 PM (#4353469)
The main problem the Bucks have is they have two guards who take the bulk of their shots and are inefficient scorers. It's basically like having two Iverson-lites in your backcourt - when those guys are both on, they are a blast to watch, but it makes it very hard to construct a team around them that will win. They are also very thin - Marquis Daniels has started 16 games this season! I like Dunleavy in his role, at least. Sanders D helps somewhat, and it goes a long way to making their defense as good as it is without a guard who can, well, guard.

As for Jennings' future - again, he's another in this class of Tyreke Evans type guys who need the ball in their hands to succeed but aren't consistent or efficient enough scorers for their teams to be successful with them in that role. Jennings has to go one of three ways - he has to figure out a way to score more efficiently (his 3P% imporvement this year not withstanding, hard to see that happening), or he needs to develop better playmaking skills (seems even less likely), OR, ideally, on a contender, he's a guy who comes off the bench for instant offense. He gives you 24 points in 30 minutes on the nights he's on, but when he's not, you don't have to give him 30 minutes. He also needs (ideally) to be paired with a taller guard who is better defensively - so, not Monta Ellis, basically.

Basically, if he's your starting point guard, I think your team is going to be limited unless you have just the right other pieces around him.

I was also surprised at how well Kemba was doing this year. Wow. But Moses is right - that guy will never be a good defender in the NBA.

Finally, I would also consider trading for Brook Lopez right now as buying high.
   626. andrewberg Posted: January 23, 2013 at 02:44 PM (#4353471)
This is what I find interesting -- he's very talented, but its looking like he's a below median starter. I'm not sure what it means to have overall league talent at that high of a level...other than that being a very good thing for the NBA.


I think he is right around the middle. He scores a lot, so he looks superficially better than he really is. His biggest weakness is defense, which is a perpetually underrated part of the game. Is he better than an average starting PG from a prior era? If so, is it by a bigger margin than the average starter at another position compared to that of the corresponding era? I don't know, maybe, but the usual red flags about misperceiving a player are very present with him.

Again, feel like I should say that I like Jennings.
   627. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 23, 2013 at 03:01 PM (#4353477)
OR, ideally, on a contender, he's a guy who comes off the bench for instant offense. He gives you 24 points in 30 minutes on the nights he's on, but when he's not, you don't have to give him 30 minutes. He also needs (ideally) to be paired with a taller guard who is better defensively - so, not Monta Ellis, basically.

You're describing Jamal Crawford, but smaller. I think he could excel in that role.

Forbes released its franchise valuations today. the average team is worth 30% more than it was a year ago as the lockout was coming to an end.

Link. Knicks and Lakers over $1 billion. Knicks $83mil in profit by their calcs. Teams in the red: Portland, Philly ($0.8mil), Memphis, Minny, Hawks ($19mil - the high), Charlotte and Milwaukee ($0.5mil).
   628. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 23, 2013 at 03:03 PM (#4353478)
The average operating income (earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization) for the league’s 30 teams during the lockout-shortened 2011-12 season was $11.9 million, the most since Forbes began tracking the finances of NBA teams in 1998.

The NBA’s record profitability last season was a function of the new CBA and player costs (owners’ biggest expense) being slashed 20% due to the 66-game season. Yet revenues only fell 7% as teams were locked into long-term media and sponsorship deals that in many cases did not require teams to refund any money from lost games.


Wow.
   629. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: January 23, 2013 at 03:26 PM (#4353489)
Greivis Vasquez



Wow. I didn't know he had a starting PG job. Yikes.


3rd in the league in assists this year! He was a hell of a college player-a big guard and a fierce competitor.
   630. steagles Posted: January 23, 2013 at 04:06 PM (#4353528)
Forbes released its franchise valuations today. the average team is worth 30% more than it was a year ago as the lockout was coming to an end.
the sixers were just sold about a year and a half ago, and if they sold the team again right now, they'd make ~$130 million in profit.

   631. Famous Original Joe C Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:14 PM (#4353602)
You're describing Jamal Crawford, but smaller. I think he could excel in that role.

Exactly, Moses. Or Nate Robinson for the '10 Celtics. Or JR Smith, ideally.
   632. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:59 PM (#4353665)
Greivis Vasquez
I like Vasques a lot. He's not the athlete a bunch of the other aforementioned guards are, but he's smart, he doesn't get rattled, and he can hit an open 3. I don't know that you can contend for a title with him as your starting PG, but you can certainly be respectable with him.
   633. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 23, 2013 at 11:06 PM (#4353799)
Lakers getting blown out in Memphis, and now even the refs don't respect them. Has there ever been a team that's fallen so short of expectations? I can't think of one.
   634. bob gee Posted: January 23, 2013 at 11:17 PM (#4353801)
mchale - awful coaching again, running harden into the ground when the team's down 20 most of the 4th quarter. and stopped the passing/picking in the 2nd half.

didn't watch the lakers game - how bad was howard's injury? it would be pretty funny if orlando winds up the winner in that deal from last year.
   635. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 23, 2013 at 11:29 PM (#4353806)
Crazy ending to Bulls/Pistons game. Bulls down 17 in the 3rd, come all the way back. Tied game under 10 seconds left, Bellinelli takes a bad jumper from about 20 feet on the baseline, way short. Noah somehow saves the rebound - looks like he was trying to hit it off a Piston - right to Bellinelli for a layup and 1. I have no idea how Noah didn't land out or how he kept the ball from hitting the ground. Tough loss for the Pistons.

Jimmy Butler with another good game - 46!!!min, 18pts, 9reb, 4ast, only 1 TO (and a steal and block).

I was impressed with what I saw of Drummond - raw, but great rebounder already and moves well for someone his size.
   636. RollingWave Posted: January 23, 2013 at 11:44 PM (#4353811)
mchale - awful coaching again, running harden into the ground when the team's down 20 most of the 4th quarter. and stopped the passing/picking in the 2nd half.


They need to stop putting Harden in so much that's for sure. he turned it over 7 times this game, meanwhile, in a rare game where both Patterson and Morris actually played pretty well, they decided to keep both's playing time down while Parson couldn't hit any shots .

Also, Greg Smith actually DIDN't run into foul trouble this game but they kept Asik in basically 3/4 of the game, why?

I guess McHale's main concern is that Harden doesn't technically have a backup? who the F cares? just put in Lin + Douglas or Beverly or Delfino, most of the team is sort of the multi purpose type anyway.

They need to have a better plan B / C for their half court set, right now it's.... pass it to Harden and everyone waits for the corner 3 95% of the time (and it's not like they have several Ray Allens out there)
   637. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: January 24, 2013 at 12:08 AM (#4353816)
because asik is the key to their defense?
   638. PJ Martinez Posted: January 24, 2013 at 12:45 AM (#4353823)
   639. robinred Posted: January 24, 2013 at 03:32 AM (#4353843)
I have been deliberately staying off the thread, and, obviously, the Lakers have a massive, gunky web of interrelated problems. But with almost everybody, including even the players now, it seems, focused on the Goetterdammerung aspects of the narrative, I have one basic point that I want to make. The main tangible, specific issue is still the perimeter defense. Memphis is #2 in the NBA in DRTG; Chicago is #4, so the fact that the Lakers couldn’t score that much against them is not that surprising, but these are teams that you can actually beat scoring 80-90. Both of them are below average in ORTG (19th and 20th) and have at times struggled mightily to score. Memphis lost 82-81 to Indiana at home on Monday; Chicago barely beat Detroit 85-82 tonight at home.

But against the Lakers, Kirk Hinrich, Marco Belinelli, Nate Robinson, Mike Conley, Jerryd Bayless, and Troy Wroten all had good-to-very good-to great games. Belinelli and Robinson are good bench scorers, Bayless is OK as backup 1, and Conley is a pretty good starting 1. But none of them is as good as the Lakers made each of them look, and both Chicago and Memphis each sailed past their usual ORTGs playing the Lakers.

This draws a line under three things:

1. As noted ad nauseum in many quarters, D’Antoni’s poor coaching, both in terms of the D and arguably WRT usage of Meeks.
2. Kupchak’s inability to provide the Lakers with decent backup perimeter players. Whether Meeks is more of a D’Antoni or a Kupchak problem is debatable, but either way, Meeks has not been as helpful as I had hoped he would be.
3. That as cool as it sounded, having what I and others noted in preseason is “the oldest starting backcourt in NBA history” comes with a real downside, particularly when your starting 3 is 33, and and your best bigs are a slow 32-year-old and a guy with a bad shoulder and a bad back.

There is more to it--OREBs, TOs. But I think it starts with perimeter D.
   640. Into the Void Posted: January 24, 2013 at 04:06 AM (#4353846)
But against the Lakers, Kirk Hinrich, Marco Belinelli, Nate Robinson, Mike Conley, Jerryd Bayless, and Troy Wroten all had good-to-very good-to great games. Belinelli and Robinson are good bench scorers, Bayless is OK as backup 1, and Conley is a pretty good starting 1. But none of them is as good as the Lakers made each of them look, and both Chicago and Memphis each sailed past their usual ORTGs playing the Lakers.

This draws a line under three things:

1. As noted ad nauseum in many quarters, D’Antoni’s poor coaching, both in terms of the D and arguably WRT usage of Meeks.
2. Kupchak’s inability to provide the Lakers with decent backup perimeter players. Whether Meeks is more of a D’Antoni or a Kupchak problem is debatable, but either way, Meeks has not been as helpful as I had hoped he would be.
3. That as cool as it sounded, having what I and others noted in preseason is “the oldest starting backcourt in NBA history” comes with a real downside, particularly when your starting 3 is 33, and and your best bigs are a slow 32-year-old and a guy with a bad shoulder and a bad back.


One of the most interesting things to me about the Lakers season so far is how much Nash is let off the hook- he isn't even mentioned by name in this post. Instead, #1 is D'Antoni's poor coaching of the defense...as if 2-3 guys that are terrible on defense are somehow terrible as a result of his coaching. I mean, Hinrich (who is LONG GONE) had a career game with Nash guarding him...yet it's D'Antoni's fault. No Laker's fan wants to discuss Kobe's defense either...it's all D'Antoni and Howard's fault.
   641. robinred Posted: January 24, 2013 at 04:23 AM (#4353847)
One of the most interesting things to me about the Lakers season so far is how much Nash is let off the hook- he isn't even mentioned by name in this post. Instead, #1 is D'Antoni's poor coaching of the defense...as if 2-3 guys that are terrible on defense are somehow terrible as a result of his coaching. I mean, Hinrich (who is LONG GONE) had a career game with Nash guarding him...yet it's D'Antoni's fault. No Laker's fan wants to discuss Kobe's defense either...it's all D'Antoni and Howard's fault.


That as cool as it sounded, having what I and others noted in preseason is “the oldest starting backcourt in NBA history”

Who exactly did you think I was talking about in that sentence? Further, I mentioned, by name, every opposing backcourt player on Memphis and Chicago who torched the Lakers, starting with Hinrich. I kind of figured that people would make the connection.

Also, I have specifically talked about Kobe's D here on the thread more than once, I linked to and endorsed a Zach Lowe piece calling out Kobe on his D, and as to the fans, the guys who run the SB Nation and True Hoop Lakers blogs both ran lengthy pieces, with video, specifically talking about how bad Kobe's defense has been. On the Lakers blog I hang out at, people talk about Kobe's D, along with all the other problems, pretty much every day.

   642. robinred Posted: January 24, 2013 at 04:34 AM (#4353852)
Finally, of course, the entire post was about perimeter D--and had nothing to do with Howard.

A lot of Lakers fans are of course pissed off at Howard, and to some extent rightly so. My point, however, was that I think perimeter D is the worst of all the problems--which obviously means Kobe and Nash, among others. People are mad at D'Antoni because he seems to be making the team's weaknesses worse (and because he is not Phil).
   643. thok Posted: January 24, 2013 at 07:25 AM (#4353863)
Forbes released its franchise valuations today. the average team is worth 30% more than it was a year ago as the lockout was coming to an end.


To be fair, the Dow/Nasdaq/S&P 500 have all had similar increases during the last year (especially if you go September-September; a 15-20% increase is basically the norm for that time period.) A lot of the change may just be the economy getting better.

Edit: I'm sort of impressed that the Warriors have improved enough that beating two of the Western powers back to back doesn't even merit a comment.
   644. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: January 24, 2013 at 08:00 AM (#4353867)
Edit: I'm sort of impressed that the Warriors have improved enough that beating two of the Western powers back to back doesn't even merit a comment.

Something I was wondering while watching last night's NBAtv doubleheader, which team deserves to be taken more seriously, Warriors or Nuggets and why? At this point, it's clear that LAC, SAS and OKC are the class of the WC with MEM-GSW-DEN a level below (I suppose some might have MEM on a middle tier by themselves) so how do people sort it out?
   645. bob gee Posted: January 24, 2013 at 08:10 AM (#4353870)
636 - i didn't mind smith not playing so much because asik was the only way to (somewhat) keep denver's bigs off the board. i also didn't mind parsons so much, since houston's got four players with significant upside (parsons, lin, harden, asik) and don't mind them playing through bad games, if they're playing 28-32 minutes each.

only problem is that mchale is quicker on lin than larussa with a platoon situation, and asik often doesn't get to play through his bad games. and everything else you said is spot-on.

about the dow/stock valuations - part of that also is because the fed rates / interest rates are so low. when times don't look terrible and rates are low, money travels to anything that looks like it might be a decent investment.

kobe wasn't looking good on defense the past couple years; what i'd see is someone who could pump it up for a couple plays and play really good defense, but mainly looked as if he was either saving himself (for offense) or just was getting older. no idea which, but kobe the-all-world defender is long gone.

and no fan of d'antoni (i think he's only marginally better than mchale) but the lakers bench roster (as stated above) is awful. you've got an old starting unit (when gasol was starting), and you know that they're going to need quality backups OR good youthful sparkplugs, and have neither. chris duhon? jamison and meeks should be the lower end of what they get off the bench, not the higher end. kobe can't run 38 every night, and nash shouldn't be running more than 30.

   646. JC in DC Posted: January 24, 2013 at 10:09 AM (#4353914)
I agree with robin about the Lakers D. I saw a comment yesterday from Pau where he said basically the same thing: their single biggest problem is their defense. Sure, the talent is old or sucky, so that makes it hard to play D. But the blame for D'Antoni rests on at least two common complaints: they're not slowing the game down to help relieve some pressure on their D, and he's not making situational adjustments that might help the defense. To put it another way: were the Lakers playing better defense under Brown than they are now?

I remain a huge Pau fan. I just don't know how you run this guy's psyche and game into the ground the way LA seems to have done. He is going to help you win/get better, even limited as he is now. He is not the problem. I'd kinda like to see Dwight out for 6 games while they play Pau at C and see what happens.

I also feel for D'Antoni a bit. His interviews read more and more like every other coach. The humor is straining under the weight of unmet expectations, I guess.
   647. Jimmy P Posted: January 24, 2013 at 12:39 PM (#4354051)
1. As noted ad nauseum in many quarters, D’Antoni’s poor coaching, both in terms of the D and arguably WRT usage of Meeks.


ESPN's really pushing the narrative that D'Antoni is the reason for everything, and if Phil were around this team would challenge OKC. Because what the Lakers need now is another huge ego that's more concerned with his money and off court issues while only working part time.

What's really amusing is every analyst and coach they bring on says the same thing: The D is terrible, Dwight and Nash are hurt, they haven't played together enough and D'Antoni needs to adjust.
   648. Jimmy P Posted: January 24, 2013 at 12:55 PM (#4354068)
A basketball observation not related to the NBA. NCAA ball is horrible to watch. Too many teams are winning without hitting 60. If you can't score 60 with a shot clock and 3's, you don't deserve a W.
   649. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 24, 2013 at 01:28 PM (#4354092)
I think it's useful to point out that everyone expected that the Nash-Bryant combo would not be good defensively. Not only that, but the Lakers were only a mediocre defensive team last year with an aging Pau and MWP (Def Rtg: 104.4, 13th of 30) and the entire point of bringing in Howard was to have his all-world defense make up for the overall team defensive slide. Obviously, Howard's health has affected his defense, but his attitude has been rightfully criticized. I'd like to see the Lakers trade him. He's a Hall-of-Fame level player when he's healthy, but damn, he's just too hard to root for. Coming from someone who roots for Kobe Bryant, that's saying a lot.
   650. robinred Posted: January 24, 2013 at 01:32 PM (#4354098)
ESPN's really pushing the narrative that D'Antoni is the reason for everything, and if Phil were around this team would challenge OKC
--

Some fans are falling back on that as well, and it is obviously wrong. People, me included, overrated this roster. This team was based on the premise that the Core Four could play at recent levels and play well together; they have not been up to it, either mentally or physically, and that has exposed the rest of the team. A lot of that is not MDA's fault.

But at the same time, JC is correct. I backed the Pringles hire, but I specifically said, in more or less these words both here and and at a Lakers blog, that "I think D'Antoni will be smart enough to make some adjustments." I think he has kind of tried to do that, but I really haven't seen enough of it. The pace is too fast; the D is bad in large part due to athletic limitations, but also has execution and intensity problems. Some of that has to fall on the coach.

In Phoenix, MDA had Golden Retriever Nash and four greyhounds. Here, he has an older Nash and a Doberman, an Afghan, a Pit bull, and a Mastiff with a bad shoulder, as well as several shelter mutts. He needs to run the kennel diffently.
   651. robinred Posted: January 24, 2013 at 01:37 PM (#4354105)
I think it's useful to point out that everyone expected that the Nash-Bryant combo would not be good defensively
--

Correct. This is an organizational failure; Lakers fans are arguing about who is to blame, but it's everybody. Buss and Kupchak did a poor job of planning/adding around the flaws of the stars (conceding the limits of the money after the stars get paid) and the laundry list of potential interconnected questions from preseason (age/health/depth/D/coaching/personality conflicts) that could drag the team down have in fact done so, albeit in a more dramatic fashion than almost anyone anticipated.
   652. andrewberg Posted: January 24, 2013 at 01:40 PM (#4354109)
This team was based on the premise that the Core Four could play at recent levels and play well together


Asking a 41-year old Mariano Rivera to not only come back from knee surgery, but to change sports and anchor a defense is too much to expect.
   653. steagles Posted: January 24, 2013 at 01:52 PM (#4354118)
Coming from someone who roots for Kobe Bryant, that's saying a lot.
not as much as you'd think, but akin's axiom insists that i end this post right here.
   654. cmd600 Posted: January 24, 2013 at 01:53 PM (#4354120)
Too many teams are winning without hitting 60. If you can't score 60 with a shot clock and 3's, you don't deserve a W.


You seem to be suggesting that they are trying to hit 60, but can't. They aren't trying. It just makes too much sense for some teams that can't get top talent to take the air out of the ball, run the shot clock down, jack up a bunch of 3s and hope enough fall, and scramble back on defense to slow down the opponent if they don't fall. The longer shot clock, shorter three point line and ability to stick a big guy in the paint all night make the game a lot different. Sure, I get that you're saying you don't like that, but it's a very different game, not just bad-NBA.
   655. Jimmy P Posted: January 24, 2013 at 02:31 PM (#4354170)
I think it's useful to point out that everyone expected that the Nash-Bryant combo would not be good defensively


But they did expect Dwight to be good. And while he's better than his teammates, he's not the old Dwight Howard.
   656. Manny Coon Posted: January 24, 2013 at 02:58 PM (#4354224)
But they did expect Dwight to be good. And while he's better than his teammates, he's not the old Dwight Howard.


I think people looked at Howard did in his best seasons in Orlando, where they were consistently one of the best defensive teams in league, despite giving big minutes to guys like Turkoglu, Rafer Alston Rashard Lewis, Jason Williams, Jameer Nelson, JJ Reddick, aging Vince Carter and assumed that Howard would be able to cover for Nash and Kobe the same way he covered for those guys, but Howard just isn't the same caliber of defender since his injury.
   657. smileyy Posted: January 24, 2013 at 03:27 PM (#4354259)
So, if Dwight Howard never recovers from back surgery and is done...wow, that was a really awful one-year extension he signed last year, huh?
   658. smileyy Posted: January 24, 2013 at 03:30 PM (#4354261)
NCAA Men's Basketball would be improved with a 30s shot clock.
   659. steagles Posted: January 24, 2013 at 03:30 PM (#4354263)
Howard just isn't the same caliber of defender since his injury.
he's less than a year away from surgery, so i think it's a bit unfair to assume he'll never recover to his previous capabilities.

this whole situation is actually pretty odd. he had the surgery before the end of last season, but comments at the time made it seem as if the situation wasn't that serious and that he only did it because he didn't want to play for orlando. then, as a result of the surgery, it was assumed that he'd miss a few months at the start of this season, but he was in the lineup the first week. and now, while he's playing, he's not playing at his previously established level of dominance.


and going back to that trade (howard to LA, bynum to philly, iguodala to denver, "stuff" to orlando) it really seems to buck against the history of the NBA to think that orlando actually got the best end of that deal, and that they still have 3 first round picks coming to them.
   660. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: January 24, 2013 at 03:32 PM (#4354265)
So, if Dwight Howard never recovers from back surgery and is done...wow, that was a really awful one-year extension he signed last year, huh?


I'm not so sure about that. Do you really think nobody is going to give him max money this offseason?
   661. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: January 24, 2013 at 03:46 PM (#4354281)
Edit: I'm sort of impressed that the Warriors have improved enough that beating two of the Western powers back to back doesn't even merit a comment.


ESPN sure seems to think so as they ran 3 stories on the Lakers before even getting to the Warriors/OKC game coming out of the break last night.
   662. cmd600 Posted: January 24, 2013 at 04:05 PM (#4354295)
NCAA Men's Basketball would be improved with a 30s shot clock.


Agree, and I'm not sure how much else they can/should do. If you move the 3 point line back and crack down on zone defenses, you pretty much turn the game into a race for schools to recruit future NBA PGs. A guy like Trey Burke, who is going to be only a mid 1st round pick, can already dominate the current game, even with little room to operate. You change more than the shot clock and you are only going to turn it into bad-NBA, and eliminate a lot of respectable schools ability to contend.
   663. Spivey Posted: January 24, 2013 at 04:06 PM (#4354297)
I definitely think that people are writing off Howard too early. I don't know the specifics but it sure seems like he's been rushed back, and some of the criticism he gets doesn't seem to properly acknowledge that fact.

Also, as a Mike Brown defender - that early run without Nash doesn't look so bad now.
   664. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: January 24, 2013 at 04:13 PM (#4354304)
Don't know if it's been mentioned here, but congrats to Kevin on getting the FT ESPN gig!
   665. andrewberg Posted: January 24, 2013 at 04:24 PM (#4354313)
You change more than the shot clock and you are only going to turn it into bad-NBA, and eliminate a lot of respectable schools ability to contend.


The shot clock bothers me more than anything. 35 seconds is enough time to let a team run their offensive set, have the defense totally shut it down, then reset to do the whole thing over again. People can disagree, but I find that grating.
   666. Fourth True Outcome Posted: January 24, 2013 at 04:27 PM (#4354315)

The shot clock bothers me more than anything. 35 seconds is enough time to let a team run their offensive set, have the defense totally shut it down, then reset to do the whole thing over again. People can disagree, but I find that grating.


I totally agree. I have no specific issue with the skill gap between NCAA and NBA, but I find it infuriating to watch a team kill 20 seconds trying something that doesn't work at all, and still have more than enough time left in the shot clock to run a whole separate set.
   667. Manny Coon Posted: January 24, 2013 at 04:27 PM (#4354316)
he's less than a year away from surgery, so i think it's a bit unfair to assume he'll never recover to his previous capabilities.


Saying he's struggling this year isn't saying his career is over. I do think he's more a high risk/high reward player going forward than sure thing superstar though, but his upside still going to be well worth the risk for most teams. He's going to max contract from someone this off season no matter what.
   668. steagles Posted: January 24, 2013 at 04:41 PM (#4354328)
Don't know if it's been mentioned here, but congrats to Kevin on getting the FT ESPN gig!
jesus, they're really scraping the bottom of the barrel there. wasn't he banned from this site about a dozen times before it finally stuck?
   669. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: January 24, 2013 at 04:45 PM (#4354334)
okay STEAGLES, that made me snort...

Congrats, Pelton! So, I figured that you had to leave the Pacers and Storm, didn't know about BbPro 'til your tweet. What does this mean for the future of the annual & SCHOENE projections?
   670. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: January 24, 2013 at 05:32 PM (#4354366)
I may be the only Suns fan out there who isn't freaking out about the team's record and/or turmoil. We're rebuilding - we should want to lose.
   671. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: January 24, 2013 at 05:33 PM (#4354368)
The shot clock bothers me more than anything. 35 seconds is enough time to let a team run their offensive set, have the defense totally shut it down, then reset to do the whole thing over again. People can disagree, but I find that grating.
I totally agree. I have no specific issue with the skill gap between NCAA and NBA, but I find it infuriating to watch a team kill 20 seconds trying something that doesn't work at all, and still have more than enough time left in the shot clock to run a whole separate set.
Absolute concurrence.
   672. Famous Original Joe C Posted: January 24, 2013 at 06:21 PM (#4354410)
Congrats and good luck with the new gig, kpelton!
   673. Jimmy P Posted: January 24, 2013 at 06:30 PM (#4354419)
I'm not so sure about that. Do you really think nobody is going to give him max money this offseason?


Someone will give him max money.

NCAA Men's Basketball would be improved with a 30s shot clock.


I'd think about going down to 25.

Agree, and I'm not sure how much else they can/should do.

Call the bullshit that happens in the paint. It's way too rough, too much fouling. Call the handchecking on the perimeter. Pat Riley ball caught on, and it never went away. That's on the refs.
   674. smileyy Posted: January 24, 2013 at 06:46 PM (#4354425)
As I harp about whenever it comes up, I'd also eliminate the charge call when the defender slides under the jumping shooter, or when the shooter jumps and lands into a planted defender. You're not made of glass; you made his shot harder; you don't need a reward.
   675. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: January 24, 2013 at 06:55 PM (#4354430)
Don't know if it's been mentioned here, but congrats to Kevin on getting the FT ESPN gig!


Yeah, congrats Kevin! I am especially happy since right after I signed up for Insider, Hollinger left for the Grizzlies. It will be nice having Kevin replace him.
   676. cmd600 Posted: January 24, 2013 at 07:01 PM (#4354435)
Call the ######## that happens in the paint.


Sure, absolutely, enforce the rules as they are written. I'm just thinking about changes to the actual rulebook.

Though I think the powers that be don't mind it too much as it helps prevent that race for the PG i described above. You start to call handchecking tight and the teams with the top 5 or so PGs are going to be in the bonus mighty quick. The vast majority of college perimeter players won't be able to prevent Burke (just because I mentioned him above) from going for 25 and 10.
   677. madvillain Posted: January 24, 2013 at 07:14 PM (#4354446)
Andre Drummond is really good. Why Frank didn't play him more last night puzzles me and it might have cost the Pistons a win. Have we talked about Jimmy Butler yet? In Deng's steed he's averaging 40+ minutes a game and is doing a helluva impersonation of Deng himself -- defensive stopper (as much as any perimeter player is these days), rebounds well for his position, and can make open shots. Not a creator but when Rose comes back they won't need that much. Nate Rob did a great job of finding Butler in the corner for his huge 3 that helped put Detroit on ice.

Frankly I haven't followed the Bulls that closely up until about the last two weeks. I can't say I'm shocked what Thibs is getting out of that bunch, but I am sorta shocked. On paper there is no way this bunch (sans rose) is anywhere near last year's. But there they are playing just about the same as they did last year without Rose. I don't want to digress this into a tangent about Reinsorf, but sometimes when you have to get creative as a GM due to money GarPax has shown ability to do it. Bellinelli? Nate Rob? Jimmy Butler as the 30th pick? Just more guys to plug into Thib's system. Butler could be good enough to where Deng gets traded as an expiring. That would be a huge bonus for a team with perenial luxury tax issues.

Also, the have Mirotic coming over perhaps in 2014. This team could be setup for a 5-7 year run if Rose can stay healthy. Knock on freaking wood.
   678. madvillain Posted: January 24, 2013 at 07:16 PM (#4354448)

A basketball observation not related to the NBA. NCAA ball is horrible to watch. Too many teams are winning without hitting 60. If you can't score 60 with a shot clock and 3's, you don't deserve a W.


Watch Michigan play they have 3-5 future NBA players on the roster and they have the best offense in college ball on a PPP basis. In Beilein's system with that many studs it's a joy to watch.
   679. andrewberg Posted: January 24, 2013 at 07:20 PM (#4354454)
Congratulations Kevin. It is a big month for Seattle basketball. Now I am going to need to come up with a way to steal your press passes next year.
   680. Jimmy P Posted: January 24, 2013 at 07:30 PM (#4354462)
Watch Michigan play they have 3-5 future NBA players on the roster and they have the best offense in college ball on a PPP basis. In Beilein's system with that many studs it's a joy to watch.


I will. They play my boys in about 30 minutes (though, I'll be watching it well after it ends due to work and child responsibilities).
   681. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: January 24, 2013 at 08:07 PM (#4354481)
some of the a-s reserve picks have leaked out - incl. jrue and paul george for the east.
   682. steagles Posted: January 24, 2013 at 08:21 PM (#4354490)
some of the a-s reserve picks have leaked out - incl. jrue and paul george for the east.
outstanding if true. now what he needs to do is get really close to a couple of the younger players so he can pull a dwyane wade and bring 3 of them here to philly one of these years.
   683. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 24, 2013 at 08:49 PM (#4354499)
East reserves: Bosh, Chandler, Deng, George, Holiday, Irving and Noah.

West: Aldridge, Duncan, Harden, Lee, Parker, Randolph and Westbrook.

I'm surprised Harden didn't make it. Otherwise, I guess it looks good to me, but I don't know. Glad Noah and Deng made it though.

Joakim Noah ?@JoakimNoah
I can't believe it... This has been a long journey. I want to thank all my teammates and my mother for dealing with all my shitiness.
   684. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 24, 2013 at 08:50 PM (#4354500)
Have we talked about Jimmy Butler yet?

Just look for my posts, including this page.
   685. steagles Posted: January 24, 2013 at 09:11 PM (#4354506)
I'm surprised Harden didn't make it.
huh?
   686. Spivey Posted: January 24, 2013 at 09:29 PM (#4354517)
Moses, you listed Harden. If he didn't make it, and Parker did, then I strongly disagree with that.
   687. thok Posted: January 24, 2013 at 09:35 PM (#4354522)
Lee,


Yay Warriors! (Our last All-Star rep was Sprewell.) I'm glad at least one of Lee/Curry made it.
   688. Spivey Posted: January 24, 2013 at 10:17 PM (#4354568)
It's really amazing that Mark Jackson could be such a bad announcer and such a good coach. Well, maybe it's not, but he really said some stupid stuff. I do really think the main thing a coach can do is motivate and teach effort, and he seems to be good at that.
   689. Booey Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:11 AM (#4354631)
I was hoping Jefferson would make a token AS appearance, but there's a lot of tough competition for bigs in the West. Not sure who they'd have left off instead; maybe Aldridge if they considered records more than stats, but LaMarcus does have clearly better numbers and the Blazers really aren't that far behind the Jazz anyway. And besides, if they went off records, Marc Gasol probably would've deserved a spot ahead of Al too.

Ah well.
   690. Maxwn Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:15 AM (#4354637)
I've been kind of out of touch lately, but I thought I'd drop back in for the obligatory fanboy ######## and say that I am irritated that Marc Gasol didn't make the all-star team.
   691. Booey Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:59 AM (#4354658)
#690 - Who would you have left off though? Aldridge? The Warriors have a good enough record that they deserved at least one All Star. Lee was a good call.
   692. tshipman Posted: January 25, 2013 at 01:26 AM (#4354663)
The one saving grace in this awful season for me has been my talking up of Andre Drummond.

Do I get to take a victory lap on that one yet? Who was on the other side of that one, besides everyone else?
   693. Squash Posted: January 25, 2013 at 03:21 AM (#4354689)
Call the handchecking on the perimeter. Pat Riley ball caught on, and it never went away. That's on the refs.

I've never understood why the handchecking was so terrible, yet jamming an elbow into someone's back was ruled to be kosher.
   694. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 25, 2013 at 10:27 AM (#4354762)
Moses, you listed Harden. If he didn't make it, and Parker did, then I strongly disagree with that.

Whoops. Yes, I did. I don't know what I was thinking, maybe I meant Gasol. Not sure now. Oh well.
   695. Famous Original Joe C Posted: January 25, 2013 at 11:00 AM (#4354779)
Can someone explain to me what Luol Deng, he of the 15.2 PER, is doing on the All-Star team? I get why no Pierce - don't need three guys from a 20-22 team. Was David West planning a vacation that weekend or something? Is the East really that at the on the wing?

Doesn't quite show up because of their good start, but the Bobcats are now 3-27 in their last 30.
   696. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:17 PM (#4354858)
Who was on the other side of that one, besides everyone else?

I remember saying that I wouldn't draft him at 4 - that he had the chance to be pretty good, but that he wasn't worth the risk.
   697. Jimmy P Posted: January 25, 2013 at 01:18 PM (#4354939)
I remember saying that I wouldn't draft him at 4 - that he had the chance to be pretty good, but that he wasn't worth the risk.


I didn't want to touch him. I just don't like the motivation questions that some guys have.

Kevin, is Per Diem your gig now?
   698. andrewberg Posted: January 25, 2013 at 01:21 PM (#4354943)
Deng has built a defensive reputation as one of the very best perimeter players in the league, so I am sure that helps his chances in cases like these. Add to that the fact that he plays tons of minutes (valuable), has inflated counting stats because of that (less so), and gets the rub of Thibs's defensive system, and I can see how he would look like a star. Plus, he gets the inertia vote from last year.

Drummond has certainly been better than I expected. I drafted him in my deep fantasy league and have been thrilled. I would wait to bathe in glory on him, though, because he needs to produce in more than 20 MPG or he is more Amir Johnson than Dikembe Mutombo.
   699. steagles Posted: January 25, 2013 at 01:26 PM (#4354948)
Who was on the other side of that one, besides everyone else?
i was. his FG% is up from 54% to 61%. his TRB% is up from 15% to 21%. his AST rate is up, his TOV rate is down, and his O-rating has gone from 103 to 119.

quite frankly (yeah, i think i'm gonna steal that for a while), if he was this good last year at uconn, he'd have been the #1 overall pick.
   700. Jimmy P Posted: January 25, 2013 at 01:26 PM (#4354949)
Plus, he gets the inertia vote from last year.

This, the Bulls record, and Derrick Rose's absence are his qualifications.

Page 7 of 11 pages ‹ First  < 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 > 

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
aleskel
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogNo-hitter! Four Phillies pitchers combine to blank the Braves
(14 - 7:40am, Sep 02)
Last: Yellow Tango

NewsblogPhoto of the day: Bill Murray, indy league ticket-taker
(104 - 7:38am, Sep 02)
Last: zonk

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 9-2-2014
(4 - 7:32am, Sep 02)
Last: Eric J can SABER all he wants to

NewsblogOT: Politics, September, 2014: ESPN honors Daily Worker sports editor Lester Rodney
(32 - 7:30am, Sep 02)
Last: BrianBrianson

NewsblogHBT: Jorge Soler with an extra-base hit in each of his first five games
(3 - 7:26am, Sep 02)
Last: zonk

NewsblogRobothal: Changed [Manny] Ramirez enjoyed helping Cubs prospects grow
(14 - 6:41am, Sep 02)
Last: Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class

NewsblogTrevor Hoffman's Hall of Fame induction seems inevitable
(8 - 5:50am, Sep 02)
Last: Bourbon Samurai in Asia

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread - September 2014
(6 - 2:36am, Sep 02)
Last: RollingWave

NewsblogNitkowski: Wanted: Major League manager...sort of.
(8 - 2:07am, Sep 02)
Last: Robert in Manhattan Beach

NewsblogOMNICHATTER 9-1-2014
(40 - 2:01am, Sep 02)
Last: MNB

NewsblogAstros Fire Bo Porter
(57 - 1:54am, Sep 02)
Last: base ball chick

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1957 Ballot
(10 - 1:12am, Sep 02)
Last: Moeball

NewsblogRon Roenicke rips into home-plate umpire
(17 - 12:18am, Sep 02)
Last: Bunny Vincennes

NewsblogBlue Jays Acquire Mayberry Jr.
(7 - 12:10am, Sep 02)
Last: Infinite Joost (Voxter)

NewsblogAthletics Acquire Adam Dunn
(43 - 11:46pm, Sep 01)
Last: Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66)

Page rendered in 1.0753 seconds
53 querie(s) executed