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Wednesday, January 02, 2013

OT NBA Monthly Thread—January 2013

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: the fiscal cliff and Civil War generals.

baudib Posted: January 02, 2013 at 01:16 AM | 1049 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, off-topic

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   101. Famous Original Joe C Posted: January 05, 2013 at 12:54 PM (#4339639)
   102. Publius Publicola Posted: January 05, 2013 at 12:56 PM (#4339640)
I'll take KG's side this time, that didn't look intentional. Good quote though.


They gave him a flagrant 2 and watching the replay several times, I doubt if it was even a flagrant 1. The foul itself was fairly mundane, if hard, hacking down on the ball as the shooter was about to go up. That happens 10 times a game, at least. He did follow through with an elbow but it appeared that he was just trying to extricte his arm rather than hit Hansbrough with it. Very dubious call.
   103. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Posted: January 05, 2013 at 01:09 PM (#4339650)
What I remember mostly about Nelson and the post Nelson influenced years is that we've had guys who could rebound and score but they were superficial/not valuable because the scoring was low-percentage volume jumpshooting and the rebounding was all garbage defensive rebounding. Guys like Troy Murphy and Jamison come to mind, but Jamison was a pretty good offensive rebounder
Lasting image of NellieBall was bringing the ball up the court with less than a minute left down by two, hoisting up a three, miraculously getting the rebound, and hosting up another three. @$#*@*&&$#@&#@$))
   104. PJ Martinez Posted: January 05, 2013 at 10:28 PM (#4339851)
Signs of life from the Celtics: down 15 at the half in Atlanta, they started playing serious defense for the first time in a while and outscored the Hawks 33 to 9 in the third. Ended up winning by 8. Their first back-to-back wins in 3 weeks.
   105. baudib Posted: January 06, 2013 at 03:12 AM (#4339908)
Given the recent discussion, it's worth noting that Griffin had a pretty interesting game against the Warriors last night: 20 points in 30 mins, only 5 rebounds but 7 assists, 3 steals. David Lee had a very pedestrian night with 10/5, and the Clippers won by 26.
   106. RollingWave Posted: January 06, 2013 at 03:39 AM (#4339917)
Rockets have won 11 of their last 14, they really do look bad against the Thunder / Spurs though.

   107. robinred Posted: January 06, 2013 at 03:44 AM (#4339920)
Maybe a little bad blood brewing between the NBA's best California teams:

jadande J.A. Adande
Chris Paul is throwing lobs to DeAndre Jordan off the backboard and from halfcourt. Clippers are straight clowning the Warriors, 94-56 in 3Q



jadande J.A. Adande
Mark Jackson, on his glare toward Clipper bench "Just good old-fashioned, heavyweight championship staredown
,
   108. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: January 06, 2013 at 08:30 AM (#4339946)
Greivis Vasquez...who knew!?
   109. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Posted: January 06, 2013 at 12:06 PM (#4339988)
Warriors may have invited some of that during their beatdown of the Clips earlier this week.
   110. Publius Publicola Posted: January 06, 2013 at 12:23 PM (#4340001)
Lasting image of NellieBall was bringing the ball up the court with less than a minute left down by two, hoisting up a three, miraculously getting the rebound, and hosting up another three. @$#*@*&&$#@&#@$))


Agreed. Nelson never properly adapted to the rule change that brought in the 3. At first, it didn't matter than much because not that many of them were taken and Nelson had a fine decade in the eighties. But as the shooters got better and the 3 became an integral part of the NBA-style offense, he failed to make the proper adjustments.
   111. Publius Publicola Posted: January 06, 2013 at 12:25 PM (#4340003)
Signs of life from the Celtics: down 15 at the half in Atlanta, they started playing serious defense for the first time in a while and outscored the Hawks 33 to 9 in the third.


Two reasons: having Bradley back and Sullinger's adaptation to the league. With Sullinger's emergence, I can see them trading Green around the AS break.
   112. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: January 06, 2013 at 12:47 PM (#4340015)
With Sullinger's emergence, I can see them trading Green around the AS break.

I'm sure teams are lining up to take on that contract.
   113. Squash Posted: January 06, 2013 at 01:12 PM (#4340027)
Since the Warriors seem to be a topic du jour, how many wins do people see them ending up with? They're currently 22-11, which means to win 50 they'd have to go 28-21. I guess I can see them doing that, though I don't think they're as good as their record. I also expect the Lakers will get it together and make the playoffs, maybe even as a fairly decent seed.
   114. PJ Martinez Posted: January 06, 2013 at 02:54 PM (#4340089)
50 wins does not seem at all out of the question for Golden State. The wildcard is Bogut. David Lee said on Bill Simmons's podcast that he thinks Bogut will be back this season (FWIW). They're 12th in Def Rtg now; Bogut probably pushes them into the top 7 or 8 at least.

And yeah, I also think the Lakers will start reeling off wins at some point and make the playoffs, though first-round homecourt appears to be fading from view.

I suspect the only way Jeff Green would have positive trade value is if he helped salaries match in a larger deal. In that case, a team might feel almost good about adding a semi-versatile player still on the right side of his prime who is by all accounts a good clubhouse guy. Otherwise, though, he probably has negative trade value, thanks to that crazy contract.

Brandon Bass is getting paid a little less and is on a shorter contract, so he might be easier to deal. And he *might* be giving Boston even less than Jeff Green right now. It's fairly close, anyway.
   115. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: January 06, 2013 at 04:14 PM (#4340134)
In that case, a team might feel almost good about adding a semi-versatile player still on the right side of his prime who is by all accounts a good clubhouse guy

RDF.
   116. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 06, 2013 at 04:20 PM (#4340142)
50 wins does not seem at all out of the question for Golden State. The wildcard is Bogut. David Lee said on Bill Simmons's podcast that he thinks Bogut will be back this season (FWIW). They're 12th in Def Rtg now; Bogut probably pushes them into the top 7 or 8 at least.
All-Star talent looking for some durability, but his body won't hold up. Obviously, you could say that about a lot of guys, but it's always sad to see when it happens. I'd like to see Bogut and the Warriors do well. Run TMC was at its zenith (55 wins!) when I went to school up there, so I've always had a soft spot for that franchise, which is almost cruel coming from a Laker fan. Speaking of which...

And yeah, I also think the Lakers will start reeling off wins at some point and make the playoffs, though first-round homecourt appears to be fading from view.
Do people still think home court for the Lakers is still possible? It's not.

I suspect the only way Jeff Green would have positive trade value is if he helped salaries match in a larger deal.
It's sad to say, but a trade that involved Gasol and Green would help both the Lakers and Celtics, but Boston wouldn't be able to match Gasol's salary. It's particularly sad because that implies Green would help a team more than Gasol. Yuck.
   117. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: January 06, 2013 at 05:01 PM (#4340169)
It's sad to say, but a trade that involved Gasol and Green would help both the Lakers and Celtics, but Boston wouldn't be able to match Gasol's salary. It's particularly sad because that implies Green would help a team more than Gasol. Yuck.

Sounds like a challenge...

Well, Green and Bass can't be traded until 1/15 (so I can't confirm it with the trade machine), but I think Green/Bass/Lee for Gasol works (C's take on less than $400k in salary, perhaps the C's have to take a minimum body like Sacre back for roster space reasons). I see a few reasons for both teams to do that, but more reasons not to for each.
   118. PJ Martinez Posted: January 06, 2013 at 05:53 PM (#4340203)
The Celtics would do Green/Bass/Lee for Gasol in a cocaine heartbeat, but LA would wisely turn that down just as fast.
   119. Manny Coon Posted: January 06, 2013 at 06:12 PM (#4340223)
Given the recent discussion, it's worth noting that Griffin had a pretty interesting game against the Warriors last night: 20 points in 30 mins, only 5 rebounds but 7 assists, 3 steals. David Lee had a very pedestrian night with 10/5, and the Clippers won by 26.


Griffin destroyed Lee last night, especially in first quarter, where he outscored Lee 14-0 (and Warriors as a whole 14-12) and the Clippers jumped out to a 23 point lead, basically ending the game right there. Griffin didn't do as much rest of the way, but he didn't have to, it was basically 3 quarters of garbage time, the Warriors were down by 39 at couple points of the game.

Obviously Lee is usually better than this, just like Griffin is usually better than his performance earlier in the week (although Lee didn't have to play in Denver the night before like Griffin did before his rough game against Lee).
   120. smileyy Posted: January 06, 2013 at 07:13 PM (#4340256)
I remember when Brandon Bass was the good Glen Davis. I haven't watched him, but what's going on there? My quick diagnosis from the stats is that he's not getting to the line, which means he's probably taking worse shots.
   121. smileyy Posted: January 06, 2013 at 07:16 PM (#4340258)
I grew up with an affinity for Golden State, after they drafted Tyrone Hill. I was too young to analyze basketball critically then -- it seemed like Run TMC wasn't built for the playoffs?

Similarly, I think Billy Owens was the start of me hating soft, underperforming forwards from Syracuse.
   122. andrewberg Posted: January 06, 2013 at 07:26 PM (#4340263)
Bass signed a big contract and gained weight. He has notably poorer athleticism this year. He was never much of a slasher, but it is gone now. I hate to use such a simplistic explanation, but I think that covers it.
   123. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 06, 2013 at 08:21 PM (#4340313)
I grew up with an affinity for Golden State, after they drafted Tyrone Hill. I was too young to analyze basketball critically then -- it seemed like Run TMC wasn't built for the playoffs?... Similarly, I think Billy Owens was the start of me hating soft, underperforming forwards from Syracuse.
That was what everyone used to say, that Nelson needed a big man and if he ever got one they'd be unbeatable. Owens was supposed to be the guy who would give them an inside presence. Turns out not so much, but I remember being very, very excited during that first season he was there.

   124. puck Posted: January 06, 2013 at 08:51 PM (#4340340)
I remember Billy Owens as one of the "next Magic Johnson" types rather than an inside presence.
   125. smileyy Posted: January 06, 2013 at 08:58 PM (#4340344)
Yeah -- Owens was a big wing forward, IIRC. Kind of a classic pro tweener -- couldn't play down low, couldn't play on the wing.

My childhood fantasies revolved around Sam Perkins landing on the Warriors.
   126. smileyy Posted: January 06, 2013 at 09:02 PM (#4340347)
From the "Can I have this career over?" department, what would Billy Owens career look like if he came along 5-10 years later, when big men were starting to shoot 3-pointers? [edit: throughout their entire development]
   127. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 06, 2013 at 09:07 PM (#4340352)
Yeah -- Owens was a big wing forward, IIRC. Kind of a classic pro tweener -- couldn't play down low, couldn't play on the wing.
I think they saw him as the player Chris Webber would become. And of course, they went and got Webber, won 50 games, and then opened up a whole new chapter of pain by forcing a trade out of town. Assuming they make the playoffs this season (a safe assumption), the current Warriors will be just the second GSW team to do so since Webber left town.
   128. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: January 06, 2013 at 10:04 PM (#4340373)
Well, Green and Bass can't be traded until 1/15 (so I can't confirm it with the trade machine), but I think Green/Bass/Lee for Gasol works (C's take on less than $400k in salary, perhaps the C's have to take a minimum body like Sacre back for roster space reasons). I see a few reasons for both teams to do that, but more reasons not to for each.
with all of the lakers trade talk, and with the sixers sucking, how does this one sound to everybody? the sixers are really giving up a lot (too much?), but i think they're getting pretty solid value back.


thoughts?
   129. RollingWave Posted: January 06, 2013 at 10:20 PM (#4340384)
Speaking of the Warrior, I'm a bit surprised that Chris Mullin is a HOFer... I remember that he was a good player and all, but HOF? though maybe that's because he's one of those white guy that hits a ton of 3s and not the highlight reel dunk kind of guy.

Admitted I'm a much more casual basketball fan than baseball, looking it up, Mullin 's WS is on the lowish end of the HOF but actually wasn't undeserving, wow (and it's really only on the low end because the 90s saw a crazy awesome collection of players)



The western conference is very intriguing this year, as of today Wolf / Jazz / Laker / Mavs are all on the outside looking in, you'd figure at least half of them would make a run at it before all is said and done.

At this point, Clipper / Spurs / Thunder are essentially locks, and Warriors / Grizzly should be too baring catastrophic 2nd half. the 6/7/8 at this point is Rockets / Portland / Denver, all rather exciting young teams (especially Portland and Houston, as is the Wolfs). it's going to be mighty interesting to see how that plays out.

Still, if Mullin's low 90s WS is a bar for the HOF, but I don't see how some of the active player either around or probably would be around that when all's said and done would make it...
   130. smileyy Posted: January 06, 2013 at 10:20 PM (#4340385)
Can you clarify whether a player being a top-5 player in the league merely by being in the Sixers starting lineup carries over after they're traded? Or do they become mortal again, with the incoming player taking their place as All-NBA?

I think that has a lot of impact on any Sixers trade analysis.
   131. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: January 06, 2013 at 10:23 PM (#4340387)
Can you clarify whether a player being a top-5 player in the league merely by being in the Sixers starting lineup carries over after they're traded? Or do they become mortal again, with the incoming player taking their place as All-NBA?

I think that has a lot of impact on any Sixers trade analysis.
that's actually not as much of an issue as you'd think because the only sixers starters in this trade are lavoy allen and jason richardson.
   132. smileyy Posted: January 06, 2013 at 10:31 PM (#4340394)
[129] Mullin has a lot of narrative going for him. NYC / Big East star. The most mediagenic of Run-TMC -- (?) there's probably some of my own childhood institutional racism here. Dream Team'er, thoughh e strikes me as the weakest of the at-large pool of pro-Olympians*, but someone has to be, and I'm not sure Reggie Miller would be a huge step up.

Anyway, looking at his career on bb-ref, I see a durable, high-minute, efficient medium-volume scorer. Also, his career at St. John's factors into the Basketball Hall of Fame.

*I'm positing that there was no way to leave Bird or Magic off the roster.
   133. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 06, 2013 at 10:37 PM (#4340398)
with all of the lakers trade talk, and with the sixers sucking, how does this one sound to everybody? the sixers are really giving up a lot (too much?), but i think they're getting pretty solid value back.
Wait just a second... the Sixers are getting Kobe Bryant and Kevin Love and Ricky Rubio and getting rid of Andrew Bynum, and you think they're getting pretty solid value back? The Wolves are going to trade Love and Rubio for Bynum? The Lakers are going to trade Kobe for a bunch of guys who, put together, aren't the player Kobe is?

Yeah, that trade isn't going to work.
   134. smileyy Posted: January 06, 2013 at 10:40 PM (#4340403)
I think that trade was dripping with some sort of blend of sarcasm and STEAGLESasm.
   135. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: January 06, 2013 at 10:41 PM (#4340405)
The Lakers are going to trade Kobe for a bunch of guys who, put together, aren't the player Kobe is?
well, that's just not true. if you put all of the guys the lakers are getting together, their PER is double what kobe's is.

that actually seems like the exact opposite of what you're saying.
   136. The District Attorney Posted: January 06, 2013 at 10:41 PM (#4340406)
My childhood fantasies revolved around Sam Perkins landing on the Warriors.
Mine revolved around Lynda Carter. I say I win.
   137. smileyy Posted: January 06, 2013 at 10:44 PM (#4340409)
Lynda Carter can't protect the rim or participate in a unique fast-paced offense. I mean, I'm sure Nellie floated an Alton Lister for Lynda Carter trade, but its probably best that it didn't go through.
   138. Squash Posted: January 06, 2013 at 10:56 PM (#4340419)
There was always a lot of "what if" talk about Nellie getting a center, but even if he got one outside of an all-time stud he probably wouldn't have known what to do with him. His system, as noted above, just wasn't meant to work with a center who needed touches. What he really needed was a guy like Ben Wallace, hyper athletic and fast who could run, block shots, rebound, and play great D, but would be happy with 7 shots a game. The problem being that there is an extreme shortage of Ben Wallaces.

Billy Owens was seen as an athletic power forward when he came into the league but what he turned out to be was a small forward. That stymied him early in his career when he was put down on the blocks but couldn't hang there. Then later in his career when teams moved him outside his feet were too slow to play on the perimeter, particularly on defense. Owen's primary problem was that he either needed to be a little taller or a little faster. 6'6"-6'9" can be a real no-man's land in the NBA unless you're blessed with extreme quickness.
   139. smileyy Posted: January 06, 2013 at 10:59 PM (#4340423)
6'6"-6'9" can be a real no-man's land in the NBA unless you're blessed with extreme quickness.


I feel like a lot of roads to NCAA titles and Final Fours are paved with these guys.
   140. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 06, 2013 at 11:06 PM (#4340429)
Lynda Carter can't
There's nothing Lynda Carter can't do. She's goddamned Wonder Woman! Besides, who can think about basketball when she's around? For guys around my age (40), her running around in a once-piece pretty much defined womanly perfection for us.
   141. baudib Posted: January 06, 2013 at 11:39 PM (#4340445)
-- Concur on Lynda Carter. Also Erin Gray.

-- Mullin would be in the HOF if he never played in the NBA.

-- Do we have a handle on exactly how good James Harden is yet? It's no surprise that he is having a great year, but with the Rockets playing the highest pace in the league, I guess there is some air in his numbers that need to be accounted for. One thing's for sure, he has a lot of games where he just wrecks teams by drawing 6+ fouls a game and going 14 for 15 at the line.

   142. PJ Martinez Posted: January 06, 2013 at 11:58 PM (#4340451)
I remember when Brandon Bass was the good Glen Davis. I haven't watched him, but what's going on there? My quick diagnosis from the stats is that he's not getting to the line, which means he's probably taking worse shots.


You're right that he's not getting to the line as much. But it's not like he got to the line a ton before. He's really looked like a mess this year, and it's a bit of a mystery as to why. He went from being the good Glen Davis to being the bad Glen Davis kind of suddenly.
   143. RollingWave Posted: January 06, 2013 at 11:59 PM (#4340452)
I think in the case of the Rockets and Harden it's an example of a system that works great for the team / player . Rockets play a fast pace yeah but their limited presence down low makes it much more logical for them to play this way, Asik's number is also inflated to some extend if you think of it this way, because a. they're other forwards can't rebound for shite, and b. because they do such a large spread offense that it ends up drawing the opposing team out so much which gives Asik a lot of room to work both in scoring and rebounds.

Speaking of Run-TMC, the current Rocket system is alot like that no? though Asik would have been the big man Nelson probably needed. He's not the most ideal Ben Wallace type obviously, but he can create a good enough presence on his own with most of his team spread out helps a lot.



   144. Booey Posted: January 07, 2013 at 12:29 AM (#4340466)
with all of the lakers trade talk, and with the sixers sucking, how does this one sound to everybody? the sixers are really giving up a lot (too much?), but i think they're getting pretty solid value back.

I think the Hollinger analysis pretty much sums it up:

Lakers - lose 11 wins
Wolves - lose 21 wins
Sixers - gain 19 wins


Yeah, I'm not seeing the upside for two of the three teams...
   145. GregD Posted: January 07, 2013 at 12:31 AM (#4340467)
-- Mullin would be in the HOF if he never played in the NBA.
That feels right to me though I've given up on understanding the Basketball Hall of Fame. Nor have I figured out what to do with the Collegiate Basketball Hall of Fame. Mullin is in both. Christian Laettner is only in Kansas City, so maybe it's right to say that Mullin needed some NBA supplement to get to Springfield.
   146. baudib Posted: January 07, 2013 at 01:07 AM (#4340492)
The fact that Mullin was player of the year over Ewing kind of states how big, how important he was in college hoops. He and Ewing basically put the Big East on the map. Those games were titanic.

I guess it's fair to say that you have to do about as much as Bill Bradley as a pro to get in with that type of college career. Mullin clearly is above that line. I think he's probably a decent HOFer on his own NBA merits. Laettner probably deserves to be in as well.
   147. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: January 07, 2013 at 01:48 AM (#4340524)
asik's rebounding % isn't that different than what he posted last year (less orb, more drb, bit more total reb)
   148. tshipman Posted: January 07, 2013 at 01:59 AM (#4340527)
I think in the case of the Rockets and Harden it's an example of a system that works great for the team / player . Rockets play a fast pace yeah but their limited presence down low makes it much more logical for them to play this way, Asik's number is also inflated to some extend if you think of it this way, because a. they're other forwards can't rebound for shite, and b. because they do such a large spread offense that it ends up drawing the opposing team out so much which gives Asik a lot of room to work both in scoring and rebounds.


This is funny to me because by advance metrics (outside of PER), Harden is playing worse than he was last year. To me, this points out the flaws in basketball advance statistics. To other people, maybe not so much.
   149. RollingWave Posted: January 07, 2013 at 06:47 AM (#4340561)
so what's wrong with the Lakers now? Nash is back, Howard.. if he isn't healthy then the stats certainly aren't showing much (seeing that he had a wooping 26 rebound today). Kobe is still largely Kobe, and I really don't get what's all the fuss with Gasol. Artest...errr Worldpeace is a flawed player but as a role player in this sort of rotation he seems fine... so what's up? is it the second team getting beat too badly?

I mean if they're going to make the playoffs, they really should stop losing at home to one of the most likely team they can knock off ... (aka Denver)
   150. thok Posted: January 07, 2013 at 09:06 AM (#4340578)
The one plausible what-if for the TMC Warriors getting a center is if they do the Billy Owens for Mitch Richmond trade before the draft (so they pick up the third pick rather than Owens), then draft Dikembe Mutumbo instead of Billy Owens.

Of course, I don't think Nelson would have had a clue of how to make Dikembe/Hardaway/Mullin work.
   151. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: January 07, 2013 at 10:09 AM (#4340599)
Attended Griz-Suns last night. Me and a few dozen others. (Official attendance: 13,197.)

Good gravy, the Suns' offense is terrible. ONE fast-break point. And when your leading scorer is P.J. Tucker (17 pts), something is badly awry.
   152. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: January 07, 2013 at 11:46 AM (#4340657)
   153. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 07, 2013 at 11:54 AM (#4340669)
Chris Mullen had a funny looking haircut.
   154. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: January 07, 2013 at 11:58 AM (#4340675)
with all of the lakers trade talk, and with the sixers sucking, how does this one sound to everybody? the sixers are really giving up a lot (too much?), but i think they're getting pretty solid value back.

I'm shocked that trade is legal. I mean, best interests of the game and all, but it's amazing the salaries work out. Con I think you didn't consider, steagles: you're giving up 2 centers and only getting 1 back.

asik's rebounding % isn't that different than what he posted last year (less orb, more drb, bit more total reb)

What's impressed me most about Asik this year is his conditioning. It's amazing he's playing that many minutes, in that up tempo system. He was limited on the Bulls mostly because of Noah, but he also usually looked totally gassed every time he came out and didn't look like he could play another minute.
   155. tshipman Posted: January 07, 2013 at 12:17 PM (#4340696)
Save Gasol.


Gasol bears some responsibility for his absolutely drag-ass play. Not to rag on you, NJ, but there's this weird idea that Gasol is some kind of hostage. He's just slow and looks old right now. He is absolutely one of the biggest problems for the Lakers. They thought going in to the season that he'd be a positive for them, but he's been their worst starter.

I'd absolutely dump him for nothing to get out from under his contract.
   156. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 07, 2013 at 12:18 PM (#4340698)
OK I admit it, the Wolves are really and truly cursed. Even when they build a team the right way ... sigh. Time to start cruising the NBA Draft 2013 sites.
   157. Manny Coon Posted: January 07, 2013 at 12:20 PM (#4340701)
Looking at the by position splits as 82games, it looks like Pau Gasol has a PER of over 27 at center this year, but only 13 at PF. He's always been better at center (they won both their championships with Bynum injured and Gasol playing mostly at center next to Odom), but playing next to Howard seems to be a particularly bad fit for him.

This might not be as big a deal if Howard was actually playing like a superstar, but he's been playing worse than Gasol or Bynum have at center the last several years, while at the same time forcing Gasol into a sub-optimal role. Of course if you listen to Howard complain to the press, everything is Kobe's fault. The Laker's organization is in a tough spot though, because if they try to change their approach to Howard or the role he plays, he likely pouts and leaves once his contract is up, leaving them with nothing to build their team around longer term.
   158. andrewberg Posted: January 07, 2013 at 12:37 PM (#4340727)
What's impressed me most about Asik this year is his conditioning. It's amazing he's playing that many minutes, in that up tempo system. He was limited on the Bulls mostly because of Noah, but he also usually looked totally gassed every time he came out and didn't look like he could play another minute.


It is possible that he was just killing himself knowing that he was only getting a certain number of minutes in Chicago. His block numbers are way down this year (2.8% after 5.0 and 4.3 the last two years) and while some of that is due to increased focus on the DREB, it is also possible that he is patrolling the whole interior and re-jumping less, partially due to the defensive system and partially due to his own pacing.

OK I admit it, the Wolves are really and truly cursed. Even when they build a team the right way ... sigh. Time to start cruising the NBA Draft 2013 sites.


It hurts to even think about the Wolves right now. The worst part is that the fans are turning against Love. These are probably the same people who were blaming Joe Mauer for getting paid too much. What is wrong with people who stay in Minnesota?
   159. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: January 07, 2013 at 12:59 PM (#4340762)
I'd absolutely dump him for nothing to get out from under his contract.

Thoughts on the proposal in 117?

It is possible that he was just killing himself knowing that he was only getting a certain number of minutes in Chicago. His block numbers are way down this year (2.8% after 5.0 and 4.3 the last two years) and while some of that is due to increased focus on the DREB, it is also possible that he is patrolling the whole interior and re-jumping less, partially due to the defensive system and partially due to his own pacing.

I'm sure that's part of it.
   160. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: January 07, 2013 at 01:05 PM (#4340766)
His block numbers are way down this year (2.8% after 5.0 and 4.3 the last two years) and while some of that is due to increased focus on the DREB, it is also possible that he is patrolling the whole interior and re-jumping less, partially due to the defensive system and partially due to his own pacing.

Agreed.

You know, I like him and all, but Sullinger isn't playing that well in Boston. He's avoiding mistakes (aside from a high foul rate and shooting too many jumpers), but not really making things happen and he's having significant problems on defense. You could credibly argue that Green, for one, has outperformed him.
   161. Famous Original Joe C Posted: January 07, 2013 at 01:12 PM (#4340773)
Re: Gasol - he's shooting 27% (!) from 3 to 9 feet out this year, plus 30% from 10-15 feet (He was at 43 and 41%, respectively, last year). He's also taking more shots from 16-23 feet (30% this year vs. 24% last). Now, I know that doesn't give us all the context (for instance, how much of that is because of Howard, or plantar fascitis, or whatever?), and it's not even the midway point of the season - but yikes.

Re: [117]/STEAGLES trade proposal - can't believe how many of you jumped on that bait. Nice work, STEAGS.
   162. Jimmy P Posted: January 07, 2013 at 01:16 PM (#4340776)
Thoughts on the proposal in 117?


Jeff Green may be one of the hardest guys in the league to trade right now
   163. Famous Original Joe C Posted: January 07, 2013 at 01:19 PM (#4340778)
You know, I like him and all, but Sullinger isn't playing that well in Boston. He's avoiding mistakes (aside from a high foul rate and shooting too many jumpers), but not really making things happen and he's having significant problems on defense. You could credibly argue that Green, for one, has outperformed him.


I generally agree - but he has done one thing you overlook here - he's a very good offensive rebounder. He's top 20 in the NBA in OReb%, and by far the best on the Celtics (admittedly a low bar). Yeah, he gets his shot blocked at the rim a lot, and he's still a work in progress on D, but he's well on his way to being a useful rotation guy on a good team and I expect him to improve his D and shot selection in the 2nd half as he becomes more comfortable.

   164. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: January 07, 2013 at 01:20 PM (#4340779)
Joe, I don't think anyone took it seriously, come on. We've all seen him post before.

evan turner ?@thekidet
Bynum just had the nerves to criticize RGIII's choice of hairstyle in his post game media last night. Lol @jrue_holiday and I are amazed


Ha!
   165. Famous Original Joe C Posted: January 07, 2013 at 01:23 PM (#4340781)
By the way, Moses - I got the comment # wrong in my post [161] - meant to be [128] - wasn't referring to your post 117. As for being "fooled" [133] and [144] had me wondering, though maybe I'm the one misreading this time. :-)
   166. Famous Original Joe C Posted: January 07, 2013 at 01:24 PM (#4340784)
Jeff Green may be one of the hardest guys in the league to trade right now


Talk about a lose/lose trade.
   167. andrewberg Posted: January 07, 2013 at 01:29 PM (#4340796)
Re: Gasol - he's shooting 27% (!) from 3 to 9 feet out this year, plus 30% from 10-15 feet (He was at 43 and 41%, respectively, last year). He's also taking more shots from 16-23 feet (30% this year vs. 24% last). Now, I know that doesn't give us all the context (for instance, how much of that is because of Howard, or plantar fascitis, or whatever?), and it's not even the midway point of the season - but yikes.


If the question is whether he is slumping or declining, ISTM that midrange jumpers would not be the first thing to go.
   168. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 07, 2013 at 01:43 PM (#4340813)
It hurts to even think about the Wolves right now. The worst part is that the fans are turning against Love. These are probably the same people who were blaming Joe Mauer for getting paid too much. What is wrong with people who stay in Minnesota?


I got nothing. It is odd. Maybe you can blame talk radio (which for some reason has decided the unholy trinity are Joe Mauer, kevin Love, and Percy Harvin - because blaming great players is how all franchises excel), but talk radio is odious everywhere.

The Gophers BBall team is pretty darn good, so we have that.
   169. smileyy Posted: January 07, 2013 at 02:04 PM (#4340830)
You know, I like him and all, but Sullinger isn't playing that well in Boston. He's avoiding mistakes (aside from a high foul rate and shooting too many jumpers), but not really making things happen


You have to get rid of these guys before they become fan favorites for "playing hard" and "playing the right way", etc.
   170. Booey Posted: January 07, 2013 at 02:09 PM (#4340835)
Chris Mullen had a funny looking haircut.


Chris Mullin was just a funny looking guy, period.
   171. Booey Posted: January 07, 2013 at 02:24 PM (#4340858)
As for being "fooled" [133] and [144] had me wondering, though maybe I'm the one misreading this time. :-)


I didn't think it was a serious trade suggestion. I still thought it was interesting to post the projected results though just to show how completely one sided it was. Like Moses said, mainly I was just surprised that a trade proposal that two of the three teams would laugh hysterically at actually worked.
   172. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: January 07, 2013 at 02:25 PM (#4340860)
The Gophers BBall team is pretty darn good, so we have that.

Haven't seen them play yet. But they sound like a matchup nightmare for the Illini (due to their size). Big game Wed night in Champaign, I guess.
   173. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: January 07, 2013 at 02:27 PM (#4340865)
During Rose's rehab, KC Johnson has consistently played the role of wet blanket* during the Rose rehab process. So to see him write this today is notable, IMO:

Specific information regarding Derrick Rose’s rehabilitation from left knee surgery has been scarce.

But from the smiles emanating from Rose and management lately, it’s clear the franchise centerpiece remains on target to return at some point in the coming weeks.


snip

The only specific timeline given came shortly after the May 12 surgery, when team physician Brian Cole said Rose would return in eight to 12 months. Saturday marks eight months.


*He also plays this role when it comes to FA and other contract decisions. Almost like the guy the org uses to gets everyone's hopes down. This is not a criticism, btw, just how I read him.
   174. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: January 07, 2013 at 02:51 PM (#4340890)
I didn't think it was a serious trade suggestion. I still thought it was interesting to post the projected results though just to show how completely one sided it was. Like Moses said, mainly I was just surprised that a trade proposal that two of the three teams would laugh hysterically at actually worked.
I'm shocked that trade is legal. I mean, best interests of the game and all, but it's amazing the salaries work out. Con I think you didn't consider, steagles: you're giving up 2 centers and only getting 1 back.
good points.

do you think this one is any better?
   175. smileyy Posted: January 07, 2013 at 02:54 PM (#4340896)
I'm impressed by a net -22 win trade.
   176. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: January 07, 2013 at 03:06 PM (#4340918)
I'm impressed by a net -22 win trade.
if that's the standard, how about this one?

MIA: -14 wins
OKC: -24
LAL: -8
PHI: +3
   177. andrewberg Posted: January 07, 2013 at 03:15 PM (#4340930)
STEAGLES, here's another good one for you: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=a45ub6h

And here's a -25 win trade for Miami: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bgbckfu
   178. andrewberg Posted: January 07, 2013 at 03:21 PM (#4340936)
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bl26bvy

The trade machine is broken if it things Sacramento gains only 3 wins by trading Salmons and Garcia for Westbrook.
   179. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: January 07, 2013 at 03:22 PM (#4340938)
STEAGLES, here's another good one for you: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=a45ub6h
that one's just not realistic at all. at least the trades i've proposed have logically made sense for all teams involved.
   180. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: January 07, 2013 at 03:27 PM (#4340949)
From the NY Daily News:

People who have seen Derrick Rose work out insist he's almost ready to start playing. The Bulls still aren't saying when the 2011 MVP will be activated for game duty. And like everything else out in Chicago, the front office and coaching staff can't agree on when he'll take the court.
   181. madvillain Posted: January 07, 2013 at 03:31 PM (#4340962)
*He also plays this role when it comes to FA and other contract decisions. Almost like the guy the org uses to gets everyone's hopes down. This is not a criticism, btw, just how I read him.


It's unfortunate that most of what KC writes is taken as the bible by many self-loathing Bulls fans. The guy is a Bull's management stooge and why anyone would trust anything GarPax tell them is beyond me.

Rose will come back after 9 or so months. Why this is such a debate is beyond me. It's the recovery table and Rose is on the table.

People who have seen Derrick Rose work out insist he's almost ready to start playing. The Bulls still aren't saying when the 2011 MVP will be activated for game duty. And like everything else out in Chicago, the front office and coaching staff can't agree on when he'll take the court.


Who is "management" in this quote? Likely an anonymous mid-level staffer. I would be shocked if GarPax and the coach they just signed to an extenstion aren't on the same page about the franchise player. Thibs is a bit of a nutter, but he's not Shanahan level nutter.

I ####### hope not.
   182. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: January 07, 2013 at 03:46 PM (#4340998)
It's unfortunate that most of what KC writes is taken as the bible by many self-loathing Bulls fans. The guy is a Bull's management stooge and why anyone would trust anything GarPax tell them is beyond me.

Slow your roll. The reason I posted it because he's the mainstream writer face of the Bulls. If he's saying it, then it's what management is saying. So I'm saying this is what GarPax thinks, and that's news because they've said *nothing* of note until this.

Rose will come back after 9 or so months. Why this is such a debate is beyond me. It's the recovery table and Rose is on the table.

It's a debate because no one has said anything. You may be right, but you have no way of knowing that.

I would be shocked if GarPax and the coach they just signed to an extenstion aren't on the same page about the franchise player. Thibs is a bit of a nutter, but he's not Shanahan level nutter.

I would hope so too, but it took them how long to sign him again? There's no reason to think they're of the same mind here; ####, I bet they're going to have to be on Thibs hard if Rose has a minutes limit. As for the last point, did you miss the discussion on Rose's constant injuries last season and him rushing back every time? Not to say Thibs was wrong, but he also was criticized for Rose's ACL injury (I disagree with that, btw, but it at least came from something). Also, this happened. I know you tuned out after Rose's injury, but this also happened last season (and he didn't play for *months* afterwards). So yeah, quite frankly, I do worry about how Thibs will treat him when he comes back. (Not to mention all the minutes Deng and Noah have been playing that I've been posting about non-stop.)
   183. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: January 07, 2013 at 03:46 PM (#4341001)
And welcome back, btw.
   184. GregD Posted: January 07, 2013 at 04:19 PM (#4341052)
MIA: -14 wins
OKC: -24
LAL: -8
PHI: +3
Why don't the win numbers add up to zero?
   185. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 07, 2013 at 04:23 PM (#4341057)
so what's wrong with the Lakers now? Nash is back, Howard.. if he isn't healthy then the stats certainly aren't showing much (seeing that he had a wooping 26 rebound today). Kobe is still largely Kobe, and I really don't get what's all the fuss with Gasol. Artest...errr Worldpeace is a flawed player but as a role player in this sort of rotation he seems fine... so what's up? is it the second team getting beat too badly?
It's just not working. They don't have the players to run the plan, and now guys are getting frustrated. It's hard to see Howard wanting to re-up in LA. They're not winning this year, they possibly won't even make the playoffs this year.

It's time to start shopping Dwight Howard. Yep.
   186. smileyy Posted: January 07, 2013 at 04:25 PM (#4341062)
Positional overlap has to drive some of that.
   187. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: January 07, 2013 at 04:35 PM (#4341076)
It's time to start shopping Dwight Howard. Yep.

Ken Berger ?@KBergCBS
MRI reveals that Dwight Howard has a torn labrum in his right shoulder and is out indefinitely, Lakers announce.
   188. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: January 07, 2013 at 04:37 PM (#4341080)
Ken Berger ?@KBergCBS
Also, Paul Gasol has a concussion and also is out indefinitely, the Lakers say.
   189. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: January 07, 2013 at 04:37 PM (#4341081)
And Gasol has a concussion. This is getting to Red Sox 2011 levels of schadenfreude for me.
   190. Famous Original Joe C Posted: January 07, 2013 at 04:39 PM (#4341084)
Pau is also out indefinitely with a concussion, according to Marc Stein.
   191. Famous Original Joe C Posted: January 07, 2013 at 04:41 PM (#4341086)
Not that any of us were excited about getting that news out there or anything.
   192. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: January 07, 2013 at 04:43 PM (#4341090)
Ken Berger ?@KBergCBS
Jordan Hill will have his injured right hip examined by Lakers doctor Steve Lombardo later today. Apparently, there was an long wait.


Expecting to read that Steve Nash needs a limb amputated.
   193. robinred Posted: January 07, 2013 at 04:45 PM (#4341098)
Have fun with this, boys.
   194. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: January 07, 2013 at 04:50 PM (#4341105)
Ken Berger ?@KBergCBS
Jordan Hill will have his injured right hip examined by Lakers doctor Steve Lombardo later today. Apparently, there was an long wait.


Expecting to read that Steve Nash needs a limb amputated.


Kobe - head transplant, DTD. No games missed.
   195. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: January 07, 2013 at 04:50 PM (#4341106)
RT @netw3rk Praying for the LA area kids losing their innocence as their parents are forced to explain "missing the playoffs" to them.
   196. Famous Original Joe C Posted: January 07, 2013 at 04:51 PM (#4341107)
Have fun with this, boys.


I can high five elsewhere than here.

Kobe winning the scoring title suddenly looks like a thing, though.
   197. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: January 07, 2013 at 04:52 PM (#4341108)
I was honestly hoping for a LAL-MIA Finals matchup and this about ends any thoughts of that.
   198. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: January 07, 2013 at 05:04 PM (#4341133)
Gotta love Kobe.

I was honestly hoping for a LAL-MIA Finals matchup and this about ends any thoughts of that.

Until they're actually eliminated from the playoffs, I will not write off this Lakers roster.
   199. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: January 07, 2013 at 05:35 PM (#4341164)
Ken Berger ?@KBergCBS
Rajon Rondo has been suspended one game for making contact with a game official and failing to cooperate with a league investigation.


What, is this the 3rd time Rondo has been suspended for that (one was the ball, right)? How does that still only warrant 1 game (or less, if you consider the other part too)?
   200. Fourth True Outcome Posted: January 07, 2013 at 05:48 PM (#4341181)
Is this for him lightly bumping an official he was walking upcourt next to after a call he didn't like the other night? If this is from the play I thought, it seems likely that it's a suspension only because it's Rondo.

Edit: To be clear, I'm not saying he doesn't deserve the suspension, given the rules and his past. Just that I suspect another player without such a past/rep might have gotten some leeway in the situation.
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