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Thursday, April 03, 2014

OT: NBA Monthly Thread - April 2014

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about, which I forgot.

Have posts been building up inside you?

The District Attorney Posted: April 03, 2014 at 05:26 PM | 2387 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   1401. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: May 13, 2014 at 04:37 PM (#4706063)
As far as I know, he never bodyslammed ANYBODY in my house.


These are the sorts of questions you have to ask before entering escrow, Andrew.
   1402. sardonic Posted: May 13, 2014 at 04:42 PM (#4706066)
At this point I'm just imaging SVG channeling Al Pacino from Any Given Sunday in his press conference and gleefully shouting... "Full management control!!"
   1403. jmurph Posted: May 13, 2014 at 04:45 PM (#4706069)
Jennings and Smith will take years, if not decades, off of Stan Van's life.
   1404. It's a shame about Athletic Supporter Posted: May 13, 2014 at 05:33 PM (#4706106)
SVG- Detroit is a mess, but I wouldn't say it is an irredeemable mess. Sure, the roster is messed up by having their three good players be a PF, a C, and a PF/C. On the other hand, at least they have 3 good players!

I think it is basically a certainty that Drummond remains the C and they shop one of Smith or Monroe (S&T, I suppose, depending on timing). Monroe probably has more trade value, but he might also have more value to the team if they kept him. If SVG wants to do what he did in Orlando with 4 around 1, Smith does not fit in the Rashard Lewis spot. Then again, Drummond does not yet command a double in the low post, so maybe he uses a different offensive approach anyway. But let's just say that they can swap Monroe for a floor-spacing wing (someone like Ariza, for the sake of argument) and draft a developmental guard to eventually push Jennings (maybe Kyle Anderson). Then he goes into next year with Jennings, KCP, Ariza, Smith, Drummond with some young players with growth potential on the bench. If Drummond takes a step forward, that is probably immediately a better team than the bottom couple playoff teams in the East with some flexibility down the road.


I basically agree with this. Smith and Jennings are overpaid, especially for what they do in DET, but they shouldn't be so far above market value that they can't get out from under the contracts if they want to, especially in a world where lots of teams have cap space every year thanks to the shorter contracts from the new CBA. Monroe obviously has trade value if they want to go that route instead (letting him walk doesn't seem like that great an idea).

It seems like your playbook as incoming DET management is basically for Drummond to turn into a hopefully non-######### version of Dwight. The good thing about such a player is that he lends himself to a variety of possibilities for complementary pieces. Anyone who can shoot 3's is useful in that world, and you can afford to carry perimeter players with defensive issues. He probably won't get there, but even a gimped version of the Orlando blueprint should be able to make the playoffs in the East. Add some good coaching and a find or two in the draft or free agency and who knows.
   1405. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: May 13, 2014 at 05:48 PM (#4706111)
I basically agree with this. Smith and Jennings are overpaid, especially for what they do in DET, but they shouldn't be so far above market value that they can't get out from under the contracts if they want to, especially in a world where lots of teams have cap space every year thanks to the shorter contracts from the new CBA.

Smith might have the most untradeable contract* in the NBA right now. Jennings isn't far behind, but luckily is for a lot less. Sure, the shorter contracts help, but the next couple of years will be ugly.

*Obviously no contract is untradeable, but you usually get just as bad of one back.
   1406. It's a shame about Athletic Supporter Posted: May 13, 2014 at 06:42 PM (#4706133)
Wow, I didn't realize how bad he actually was last year, okay, yeah, that contract is pretty awful.
   1407. Srul Itza Posted: May 13, 2014 at 08:51 PM (#4706178)
The site I'm looking at says the Wizards have out-rebounded the Pacers 50-15.

That can't be right, can it?
   1408. JJ1986 Posted: May 13, 2014 at 08:55 PM (#4706180)
The Wizards have more offensive rebounds than the Pacers have rebounds.
   1409. RollingWave Posted: May 13, 2014 at 08:57 PM (#4706182)
Strangely, despite an god awful season, Smith's RAPM remains pretty good, and his pure +/- remains decent.

They need to let Monroe go at this point, hopefully through a sign and trade.
   1410. madvillain Posted: May 13, 2014 at 09:47 PM (#4706211)
Derrick Rose's injuries have completely altered the trajectory and narrative of Lebron's Miami teams. I cannot be convinced otherwise that a healthy Bulls team would not have knocked them off at least one of these years. Instead they go through an emasculated East fronted by decent by hardly elite outfits like the Pacers.

OKC has shot themselves in the foot as well with the Harden trade so that altered their course as well.

I dunno, it's just kinda pissing me off that in an alternate world were the atoms in Rose's ligaments are wound a little more sturdily Lebron might win 1 or 2 titles in Miami at most. Instead, it's looking like 3 at least, and that sucks.

Not that Lebron doesn't deserve it -- he does. It's that NBA fans have been deprived of a rivalry and a rightful challenger.

Strangely, despite an god awful season, Smith's RAPM remains pretty good, and his pure +/- remains decent.


Unlike most inefficient scorers, Smith has enough positives to his game to handily outweigh the negative. His career arc also is tragic, as with proper coaching and utilization he could have been so much more and contributed so much more to good teams. Detroit had no idea what they were doing trading for him. He's a PF and they had Monroe. Dumb.
   1411. Srul Itza Posted: May 13, 2014 at 10:18 PM (#4706233)
OKC has shot themselves in the foot as well with the Harden trade so that altered their course as well.


I find myself rooting for the Clippers, just because it keeps the Donald Sterling crap-storm more in the public eye.

Isn't about time for the part where he goes into some kind of "rehab" or 12-step program, to deal with his "problem"? And then leaves early, and declares himself "cured"?
   1412. RollingWave Posted: May 13, 2014 at 10:30 PM (#4706243)
One could muse on a theoretical 3 way of say... Asik to Boston , Green to Detroit and Smith to Houston type of trade, I'm guessing Morey won't pull the trigger like that because of Smith's contract liability, but from a need perspective it makes a lot of sense for everyone involved. Then the Rockets maybe flip Terrence Jones for wing help. (partly because as a backup 4/5 he's too undersized to cut it.)

Of course, going back to Houston, it is a funny that they ended up back with the Twin Tower lineup in the playoff, which then make you wonder why they abandoned it so soon in the first place, their handling of the Asik situation (aka both not being able to trade him nor really making him fit into the rotation.) basically sunk their season in the end.

   1413. King Mekong Posted: May 13, 2014 at 10:50 PM (#4706255)
1410 - let's not get ahead of ourselves. The West could potentially beat the Heat this year, and it's no lock that they get through Indy if Indy beats the Wiz (Indy took Mia to 7 last year).

Also looks like SVG to Detroit is official.

edit: also it's not like the Heat just walked over SAS last year, they looked like losers up until the last 30 secs of game 6. UGH.
   1414. It's a shame about Athletic Supporter Posted: May 13, 2014 at 10:59 PM (#4706260)
Unlike most inefficient scorers, Smith has enough positives to his game to handily outweigh the negative. His career arc also is tragic, as with proper coaching and utilization he could have been so much more and contributed so much more to good teams. Detroit had no idea what they were doing trading for him. He's a PF and they had Monroe. Dumb.


The East is big, man.
   1415. theboyqueen Posted: May 13, 2014 at 11:03 PM (#4706262)
The West could potentially beat the Heat this year, and it's no lock that they get through Indy if Indy beats the Wiz


I agree with the first part of this, but as to the second...come on, man.
   1416. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: May 13, 2014 at 11:04 PM (#4706264)
Indy will be a tough go for MIA. Matchups matter. Even when IND was playing arguably worse in the end of the regular season than they have in the playoffs they went to the final seconds with MIA.
   1417. It's a shame about Athletic Supporter Posted: May 13, 2014 at 11:24 PM (#4706275)
So who does GSW go after now that Kerr and SVG are off the market? From last page:

Golden St should go after George Karl.


This seems unlikely after Karl fingered Iguodala as Mark Jackson's mole after last year's playoffs.

Hollins has got to be up there, right?
   1418. VoodooR Posted: May 13, 2014 at 11:37 PM (#4706278)
Not that Lebron doesn't deserve it -- he does. It's that NBA fans have been deprived of a rivalry and a rightful challenger.


Bullsh!t. The Spurs were/are a plenty "rightful" rival.
   1419. Kurt Posted: May 13, 2014 at 11:40 PM (#4706279)
Wizards are now 5-1 on the road in the playoffs, and 1-3 at home.
   1420. It's a shame about Athletic Supporter Posted: May 13, 2014 at 11:41 PM (#4706281)
As Kerr mentions, 16th 4-point play in these playoffs as Crawford gets one. That seems like an awful lot.
   1421. theboyqueen Posted: May 13, 2014 at 11:49 PM (#4706287)
Even when IND was playing arguably worse in the end of the regular season than they have in the playoffs they went to the final seconds with MIA.


What did the Nets do against the Heat during the regular season?

Can we just pretend the Eastern Conference playoffs don't exist? Other than the Heat, none of these teams even belong in the playoffs.
   1422. rr Posted: May 14, 2014 at 12:00 AM (#4706296)
While I can understand the frustration of a Chicago fan, I am not a big proponent of analyzing anybody's legacy based on What-ifs. I think What-ifs should just be a "for fun" thing. All any team or player can do is beat who is front of them/him.

As to the Spurs, if they go 6 or 7 with Miami again, win or lose, then, yes, they will be remembered as the primary challenger to the The Heatles. But the Spurs didn't even make the Finals in either 2011 or 2012, so as of right now, IMO this part of NBA history, from the day of LeDecision to right this second revolves around one guy: LeBron James.
   1423. rr Posted: May 14, 2014 at 12:05 AM (#4706297)
ESPN saying that the Warriors are going after Kerr again now that SVG is headed for Detroit.
   1424. theboyqueen Posted: May 14, 2014 at 12:07 AM (#4706300)
What is the fascination with Kerr?
   1425. It's a shame about Athletic Supporter Posted: May 14, 2014 at 12:11 AM (#4706301)
Jamal Crawford has never even heard of a conscience.
   1426. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: May 14, 2014 at 12:25 AM (#4706311)
These last 11 seconds make it appear for all the world that this game has been fixed.
   1427. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: May 14, 2014 at 12:27 AM (#4706313)
These refs are an abomination.
   1428. Howling John Shade Posted: May 14, 2014 at 12:27 AM (#4706315)
Paul should have remembered that the hip push is the way to go on that shot.
   1429. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: May 14, 2014 at 12:29 AM (#4706317)
And of course Jackson hits Paul on the arm on the final play with no call. Of course.
   1430. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: May 14, 2014 at 12:30 AM (#4706319)
I flipped away with less than a minute to go and the Clippers up eight after corralling a missed free throw from Griffin. How in the world did Oklahoma City end up winning that one? I get the sense there were some questionable calls?
   1431. Howling John Shade Posted: May 14, 2014 at 12:30 AM (#4706321)
I'm not sure either of those were terrible calls. The ball obviously went off Reggie Jackson, so that's technically wrong. But Barnes also fouled him, so giving the Clippers the ball seems unfair. And on the Westbrook three, I can't swear to it but I think Paul may have hit his elbow as he was shooting.
   1432. It's a shame about Athletic Supporter Posted: May 14, 2014 at 12:30 AM (#4706322)
Scott Brooks is one lucky man.
   1433. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: May 14, 2014 at 12:30 AM (#4706323)
And no call on the Paul foul to end the game. Incredible. What a load of ####### ####.
   1434. Howling John Shade Posted: May 14, 2014 at 12:33 AM (#4706328)
But yeah, after those two calls, you probably should call the foul on Jackson on that last play.
   1435. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: May 14, 2014 at 12:33 AM (#4706329)
The refereeing was terrible, but I'm okay with it. I want this series to go 7.
   1436. It's a shame about Athletic Supporter Posted: May 14, 2014 at 12:40 AM (#4706338)
I hope the Spurs beat OKC in 3 games.
   1437. rr Posted: May 14, 2014 at 12:41 AM (#4706341)
That can't be right, can it?


Final count was 62-23. Washington deserves a lot of credit, although the media focus will be, "What is up with the Pacers?" After losing both at home, it would have been simple enough for the Wizards to phone it in. Obviously, they didn't.

The refereeing was terrible, but I'm okay with it. I want this series to go 7.


Some NBA conspiracy theorists posit that a particular team winning is not the goal of the fixes; rather, the goal is creating excitement and extending high-interest, high-revenue matchups--like OKC/LAC. I have never been a conspiracy-theory guy, in sports, politics, or anything else--but a lot of people want this to go 7.
   1438. AROM Posted: May 14, 2014 at 10:06 AM (#4706446)
The calls were totally one-sided, but Chris Paul lost the game for the Clippers. He's the best ball handler in the game but turned it over twice at the end. On the last play he may or may not have been fouled, hard to tell even after rewinding. But he didn't have a shot anyway, he was too deep into the paint with Ibaka right in front of him, too close to throw up one of those floaters.

It happens sometimes, Mariano Rivera can blow a save, whoever is the greatest NFL kicker can sometimes miss a 20 yard FG.
   1439. jmurph Posted: May 14, 2014 at 10:19 AM (#4706456)
Did everyone but me know that Goran Dragic has a brother named Zoran Dragic? Goran and Zoran? Why didn't anyone tell me?
   1440. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: May 14, 2014 at 10:47 AM (#4706483)
Agree with 1438.

I also want to say that Paul could not stay in front of Westbrook in the fourth quarter.
   1441. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: May 14, 2014 at 10:48 AM (#4706484)
While I can understand the frustration of a Chicago fan, I am not a big proponent of analyzing anybody's legacy based on What-ifs. I think What-ifs should just be a "for fun" thing. All any team or player can do is beat who is front of them/him.

As a Chicago fan, I totally agree.

As to the Spurs, if they go 6 or 7 with Miami again, win or lose, then, yes, they will be remembered as the primary challenger to the The Heatles. But the Spurs didn't even make the Finals in either 2011 or 2012, so as of right now, IMO this part of NBA history, from the day of LeDecision to right this second revolves around one guy: LeBron James.

Also, totally agree. The Spurs are not a rival for the Heat; it's hard to have a rival like that from another conference. Even if the Heat play the Spurs or Thunder this year, I wouldn't call them a rival yet (and even less so if the Heat win; if the Thunder/Spurs were to win and then meet the Heat for a 3rd time, we can talk rivalry*). But to go to madvillian's point, if Rose doesn't get hurt, we might be looking at a 4th straight Bulls/Heat ECF this season. Even without the injury, things perhaps play out differently, so it's not any sort of lock that they would have played all 4 years, but....

*For historical perspective, C's/Lakers definitely counts. I wouldn't count Bulls/Jazz, apologies to our Utah fans here.
   1442. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: May 14, 2014 at 10:50 AM (#4706488)
I also want to say that Paul could not stay in front of Westbrook in the fourth quarter.

Hasn't been able to stay in front of him all series. Westbrook is putting up a Rondo-esque 27/8/8 this postseason including 30/8/7 in this series on 53/41/87 shooting splits.
   1443. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: May 14, 2014 at 11:08 AM (#4706501)
I'm not sure either of those were terrible calls. The ball obviously went off Reggie Jackson, so that's technically wrong. But Barnes also fouled him, so giving the Clippers the ball seems unfair.

I totally disagree with this perspective. And do think it probably should have been a foul call (or I should say, it's almost always a foul call in that situation). I'm also not sure why Jackson wasn't passing there. But, maybe the refs were still right:

Rule 8 Section II - c of the NBA rulebook states:

If a player has his hand in contact with the ball and an opponent hits the hand causing the ball to go out-of-bounds, the team whose player had his hand on the ball will retain possession.


But that's isn't what the refs said though, so:

When the ball goes out of bounds, the ball was awarded to Oklahoma City. We go review the play. We saw two replays. The two replays we saw were from the overhead camera showing down, and the one from under the basket showing the same angle but from a different view. And from those two replays, it was inconclusive as to who the ball went out of bounds off of. When it's inconclusive, we have to go with the call that was on the floor.


So maybe they got it right for the wrong reason after still ####### it up?

And on the Westbrook three, I can't swear to it but I think Paul may have hit his elbow as he was shooting.

Agreed. You can't really see anything, but where the shot went makes it seem that Paul had to have made contact. Again though, why was Westbrook shooting that there?

I also agree they probably should have called a reach in foul on Jackson on Paul the last play before the turnover. I didn't watch the whole game (Blackhawks, you know), but twitter seemed to be on the refs even before that last minute.
   1444. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: May 14, 2014 at 11:11 AM (#4706506)
Westbrook is putting up a Rondo-esque 27/8/8 this postseason including 30/8/7 in this series on 53/41/87 shooting splits.

Ha.
   1445. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: May 14, 2014 at 11:14 AM (#4706510)
I also agree they probably should have called a reach in foul on Jackson on Paul the last play before the turnover. I didn't watch the whole game (Blackhawks, you know), but twitter seemed to be on the refs even before that last minute.

I don't pay as much attention to refs as others, but @haralabob and one other semi-famous internet basketball guy were on the refs before the game just noting that the lineup was bad. Then once OKC had taken 21 free throws with 9 minutes left in the second quarter people really started getting on them.
   1446. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: May 14, 2014 at 12:10 PM (#4706580)

Rule 8 Section II - c of the NBA rulebook states:

If a player has his hand in contact with the ball and an opponent hits the hand causing the ball to go out-of-bounds, the team whose player had his hand on the ball will retain possession.


This is really interesting because it means the refs made the correct call even though the reasoning was wrong.
   1447. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: May 14, 2014 at 12:26 PM (#4706592)
[1446] Barnes hits Jackson's left hand as Jackson is transferring the ball from his left to right hand to do a Eurostep. Jackson then loses control/bats the ball out with his right hand. It's hard for me to watch the replay and conclude that anyone but Jackson touched the ball last given the trajectory of the ball as it heads out of bounds.
   1448. AROM Posted: May 14, 2014 at 01:20 PM (#4706631)
Westbrook is putting up a Rondo-esque 27/8/8 this postseason including 30/8/7 in this series on 53/41/87 shooting splits.


Does Rajon Rondo have a brother who can shoot or something?
   1449. jmurph Posted: May 14, 2014 at 01:24 PM (#4706636)
Does Rajon Rondo have a brother who can shoot or something?


Zoran Rondo, presumably.

(But really I'm pretty sure that was a call-back to Kevin running down Westbrook prior to this series.)
   1450. AROM Posted: May 14, 2014 at 01:28 PM (#4706645)
Since Westbrook and Rondo were compared by playoff win shares/48 earlier, Westbrook is now ahead .139 to .131. Though Rondo is 2 years older, he hasn't played in the playoffs recently so in both cases we're looking at stats through age 25.

Westbrook's recent stat lines remind me most of Dwyane Wade, pre-Lebron.

What kind of comp can I make for Durant? Take the best attributes of Larry Bird and James Worthy, make him 2 inches taller, and I think you'd have it.
   1451. Howling John Shade Posted: May 14, 2014 at 01:41 PM (#4706660)
I'm not sure either of those were terrible calls. The ball obviously went off Reggie Jackson, so that's technically wrong. But Barnes also fouled him, so giving the Clippers the ball seems unfair.

I totally disagree with this perspective.
I just hate the fact that, as it stands, replay can be used to turn a slightly blown call (missed foul but gave ball to the fouled player's team) into a game-ending completely blown call. And I would rather the refs have leeway to slightly fudge that call on replay than have them be forced into making a technically correct but comprehensively unjust decision.

This is a somewhat common play and I think the judgement that goes through a ref's head if he doesn't see it perfectly is something like "he either got ball and it's off him, or it was a foul". But now, if it's near the end of the game, we've chosen to precisely correct only one part of that decision. That's going to repeatedly lead to bad results.
   1452. AROM Posted: May 14, 2014 at 01:54 PM (#4706678)
Agree 100% with 1451.
   1453. Publius Publicola Posted: May 14, 2014 at 02:14 PM (#4706701)
What kind of comp can I make for Durant? Take the best attributes of Larry Bird and James Worthy, make him 2 inches taller, and I think you'd have it.


I don't think Durant is as good as Bird. He doesn't rebound and pass nearly as well. Worthy is a better comp. Durant, is think, is clearly better than Worthy because of his ballhandling and shooting range.

Since Westbrook and Rondo were compared by playoff win shares/48 earlier, Westbrook is now ahead .139 to .131.


Here's the quote:

1147. jmurph Posted: May 05, 2014 at 03:49 PM (#4700565)

I've got Westbrook somewhere between wildly and dramatically better than Rondo.


The difference between a .139 and .131 is well within the error bars, and so it's easily understood they are about equal players (all you have to do is check the numbers), though players with very different skill sets. It's quite possible Westbrook is a better player and it would be more obvious if he wasn't playing out of position and his numbers would be better if he didn't have to play point. Westbrook has problems with turnovers. For instance, he has 120 turnover agains the Clippers, against only 9 steals and zero blocks. That's not a very good ratio. Not good at all.

With regard to Rondo, he really can't play anywhere except point and so is less versatile than Westbrook is.



   1454. Publius Publicola Posted: May 14, 2014 at 02:27 PM (#4706721)
Westbrook is putting up a Rondo-esque 27/8/8 this postseason including 30/8/7 in this series on 53/41/87 shooting splits.


Having more fun with small sample size:

Rondo against the eventual champion Heat in 2012:

21/7/11

Against the Sixers in 2012:

14/7/13(!)

Against the Hawks in 2012

17/6/12

Points vs. assists.

When the Thunder actually win something, we can talk some more about this.

   1455. jmurph Posted: May 14, 2014 at 02:36 PM (#4706735)
Westbrook has problems with turnovers.


There are stats for these types of things.

Rondo Career TOV%: 20.5
Westbrook Career TOV%: 15.5

Rondo Career Playoff TOV%: 16.0
Westbrook Career Playoff TOV%: 13.1
   1456. Spivey Posted: May 14, 2014 at 02:43 PM (#4706743)
Ignore list successfully updated.
   1457. Publius Publicola Posted: May 14, 2014 at 02:45 PM (#4706747)
What does TOV% mean?

Please explain.
   1458. Publius Publicola Posted: May 14, 2014 at 02:46 PM (#4706749)
Ignore list successfully updated.


Says the Bruins fan.
   1459. Booey Posted: May 14, 2014 at 02:46 PM (#4706750)
Westbrook has problems with turnovers. For instance, he has 120 turnover agains the Clippers,


I assume this is a typo? I haven't watched as much of the series as I would've liked, but I highly doubt Westbrook has been averaging 24 turnovers a game...
   1460. madvillain Posted: May 14, 2014 at 02:51 PM (#4706756)
Turnover Percentage (available since the 1977-78 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * TOV / (FGA + 0.44 * FTA + TOV). Turnover percentage is an estimate of turnovers per 100 plays.
   1461. Publius Publicola Posted: May 14, 2014 at 03:09 PM (#4706779)
I assume this is a typo?


Should be 20. Too late to correct.

Case in point. Early in last night's game, when things weren't going well for the Thunder, Westbrook dribbled the ball up quickly even though there was plenty of time on the clock, drifted to the right of the top of the key to draw the defense that way and then tried to throw the ball to Sefalosha for a 3 in the opposite corner with a two handed jump pass, a pass that Yao Ming couldn't have gotten to if he had a step ladder.

Deconstruction of why it was a such a bad turnover:

1. There was plenty of time left on the clock, so the situation didn't require a spectacular or desperation play like that.
2. He left his feet on the pass, which is a huge no-no that they teach you in middle school not to do. You only leave your feet with the ball if you intend to shoot it.
3. He threw it with two hands rather than one, requiring him to contort his body to the left rather than throw an easy hook pass that might have had a chance.
4. He threw it over the top of the entire Clipper defense, as long a pass in a halfcourt set as it is possible to throw.
5. There was a man wide open at the top of the key who I think but can't be positive of was Durant. so he converted a good play, drawing the defense away from the open man, into a horrible one, throwing the ball away without the chance the play could succeed.

Westbrook makes two or three of these plays a game, rushing and forcing plays that just aren't there, and that more veteran and savvy players don't make. And those two or three plays are the hair difference between being a championship team and being an also-ran. Barkley and some of the other guys were talking about this very thing on the halftime show, that if the Thunder hope to win and move on, they have to get more guys contributing than just Durant and Westbrook.

They got lucky last night with a combination of Clipper ####-ups and poor officiating. They can't continue to rely on luck, especially against a team like the Spurs who are good at getting a lot out of their secondary scorers and who don't ####-up in crunch time.

   1462. GordonShumway Posted: May 14, 2014 at 03:18 PM (#4706796)
I think Dirk would be a better comp for Durant than either Bird or Worthy.

Durant's about 6'11, Dirk's about 7'. They are both excellent scorers, and are historically great ball handlers and outside shooters for their height. Both are fair, but unexceptional rebounders for their height, and good but not great passers. Neither are known for their defense, although Durant's gotten a lot better.

Dirk is a bit taller, stronger, and I think a slightly better run-jump athlete. Durant's got longer arms and an edge in hand-eye coordination.

I think Durant's peak is better than Dirk's peak, but he's got a long way to go to match Dirk's career value given Dirk's lengthy run of consistent excellence.

Also, I'm late to the college b-ball discussion earlier, but Houston ('83, '84), St. John's ('85), and GATech ('04) have all made the final four before. Wake may have in the early 60s, but I'm not sure. So for now, looks like Wake wins.
   1463. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: May 14, 2014 at 04:23 PM (#4706847)
Despite the difference in aesthetics, Dirk/Durant is a good comparison, but Durant is a better scorer. KD has already won four scoring titles to zero for Dirk, and has bested Dirk's best PPG five times. [Granted, this may be the difference between and A and an A+]
   1464. AROM Posted: May 14, 2014 at 04:29 PM (#4706856)
Dirk is a bit taller, stronger, and I think a slightly better run-jump athlete.


Dirk is taller and stronger, but run-jump? I know he's old now, but I don't think Dirk was ever as fast as Durant. And I certainly don't remember any dunks where his head was level with the rim.
   1465. AROM Posted: May 14, 2014 at 04:35 PM (#4706865)
Yeah, he's not quite the passer Bird was. Still, he led the team with 445. He's a better passer than Dirk or Worthy, or just about any great from the past that he could reasonably be compared to.

Here's what I was thinking:

Shooting: Bird level
Ball-handling: Bird
Running, finishing on the break: Worthy
Passing: Bird-lite
   1466. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: May 14, 2014 at 04:48 PM (#4706885)
Dirk is taller and stronger, but run-jump? I know he's old now, but I don't think Dirk was ever as fast as Durant. And I certainly don't remember any dunks where his head was level with the rim.
I don't actually see Dirk and Durant as particular similar in terms of style of play. Durant is much more the open-court, perimeter gazelle while Dirk has much more of a mid-post game. Both can shoot from range. I like the Bird/Worthy comparison for Durant, though Durant really is unique in NBA history, a guy with a center's height who plays the game like a swingman on both sides of the ball.
   1467. GordonShumway Posted: May 14, 2014 at 04:56 PM (#4706892)
Dirk is taller and stronger, but run-jump? I know he's old now, but I don't think Dirk was ever as fast as Durant. And I certainly don't remember any dunks where his head was level with the rim.


Dirk was a remarkable athlete when he was younger. I think it's pretty close between young-Dirk and now-Durant, and can easily be convinced that Durant's the better run-jump athlete, especially because Youtube's blocked at work.

I don't actually see Dirk and Durant as particular similar in terms of style of play. Durant is much more the open-court, perimeter gazelle while Dirk has much more of a mid-post game. Both can shoot from range. I like the Bird/Worthy comparison for Durant, though Durant really is unique in NBA history, a guy with a center's height who plays the game like a swingman on both sides of the ball.


Agreed, Durant truly is unique and the style of his game is pretty different than Dirk's.

Dirk's the closest I could think of, in terms of a center-size guy who can shoot and handle the ball like a swingman. Also, their rebounding and passing is pretty similar, as is their defense- though again, Durant's definitely better at this point in his career.
   1468. andrewberg Posted: May 14, 2014 at 05:05 PM (#4706901)
The other guy who comes to mind as a guy who was a big SF who could shoot and do a little of everything is Bob Pettit. I have seen very limited video on him, and he played in a totally different environment. I guess what I am saying is that Durant is the black descendent of a white archetype.

Of course, his defensive profile is totally different than what we're describing.
   1469. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: May 14, 2014 at 05:11 PM (#4706907)
Dirk's the closest I could think of, in terms of a center-size guy who can shoot and handle the ball like a swingman. Also, their rebounding and passing is pretty similar, as is their defense- though again, Durant's definitely better at this point in his career.
Their numbers are certainly comparable, though how they get them is different.

Dirk, by the way, is 10th now all time in NBA scoring. A full healthy season should get him past Moses Malone for #7 all time, two more full good seasons gets him past Shaq to #6. Given his game at this point, it's not hard for me to see him hang around for four more years and playing pretty well every single one of those years, past the 30,000 point mark.

Larry Bird's the benchmark for big shooters. It is conceivable that by the time Dirk retires, he'll have 10,000 more points than Bird. Think about THAT for a few seconds.
   1470. andrewberg Posted: May 14, 2014 at 05:20 PM (#4706916)
It is funny because a couple of years ago, I ran through the similarities between Dirk and 80s Kareem in final statistics. The idea of Kareem, Dirk, and Durant all getting similar stats in completely different ways is pretty funny.
   1471. Publius Publicola Posted: May 14, 2014 at 05:50 PM (#4706933)
The other guy who comes to mind as a guy who was a big SF who could shoot and do a little of everything is Bob Pettit.


Dolph Schayes was a tall, skinny guy like Durant who could hit 90% of his FTs. Gervin is a tall skinny guy with ridiculously long arms like Durant who had a nice stroke and scored a lot. Here's his similars, thru 6 yrs:

Kevin Durant 18.9 16.1 12.2 12.0 7.9 2.3
Dirk Nowitzki 88.8 16.1 14.6 13.4 11.5 8.1 0.8
Karl Malone 85.6 15.9 15.5 15.2 10.1 6.9 1.9
Paul Arizin 84.1 16.0 13.7 12.3 12.2 8.7 7.7
Chuck Barkley 82.4 17.3 16.7 16.1 12.0 10.8 7.5
Tim Duncan 82.4 17.8 16.5 13.2 13.0 12.8 8.7
LeBron James 81.5 20.3 16.3 15.2 14.3 13.7 5.1
Elgin Baylor 80.6 14.8 14.4 11.5 9.8 7.9 7.2
Dolph Schayes 77.8 14.8 13.1 12.8 12.0 10.3 8.5
Connie Hawkins 77.3 17.9 11.3 10.2 9.6 8.6 7.5
Julius Erving 77.1 17.7 17.6 16.5 13.3 11.5 9.8

Erving, Hawkins and Schayes are the guys most built like Durant. All of them were slashers who tried to get to the rim.
   1472. cmd600 Posted: May 14, 2014 at 06:51 PM (#4706963)
Larry Bird's the benchmark for big shooters. It is conceivable that by the time Dirk retires, he'll have 10,000 more points than Bird. Think about THAT for a few seconds.


Sure, but Bird's career spanned from ages 23-35. Dirk started at age 20, and seemingly will have an age 36 (and beyond) season. On a per-minute basis, they're pretty much equal. All that tells us that is that Bird couldn't handle the minutes like Dirk can.
   1473. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: May 14, 2014 at 06:55 PM (#4706967)
On a per-minute basis, they're pretty much equal. All that tells us that is that Bird couldn't handle the minutes like Dirk can.
And that's my point. Peak vs. Career arguments abound on this site, but Dirk's one of those guys who has an enormous peak AND an enormous career arc.
   1474. cmd600 Posted: May 14, 2014 at 07:40 PM (#4706988)
And that's my point. Peak vs. Career arguments abound on this site, but Dirk's one of those guys who has an enormous peak AND an enormous career arc.


Then I misinterpreted your point. If you want to point out that Dirk is not getting nearly enough accolades, you'll get no argument from me.
   1475. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: May 14, 2014 at 08:23 PM (#4707010)
*For historical perspective, C's/Lakers definitely counts. I wouldn't count Bulls/Jazz, apologies to our Utah fans here.


FWIW, I never viewed the Jazz and Bulls as rivals either. Rockets, Spurs, and Lakers (though I don't know if the feeling is mutual in this case) yes, but the Bulls were just the better team that happened to beat them two straight years.

Also, Kerr chooses GSW.
Adrian Wojnarowski ?@WojYahooNBA 4m
Steve Kerr has agreed to a 5 year, approximately $25 million deal with Golden State, source tells Yahoo.
   1476. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: May 14, 2014 at 08:27 PM (#4707014)
In re Kerr:

Jim Dolan is like the B.O. in Seinfeld's car.
   1477. Howling John Shade Posted: May 14, 2014 at 08:44 PM (#4707021)
Guess we get to see how much Kerr learned from Popovich and Jackson. At least he's already friends with Lacob. Hopefully that lasts.
   1478. Booey Posted: May 14, 2014 at 09:16 PM (#4707029)
FWIW, I never viewed the Jazz and Bulls as rivals either. Rockets, Spurs, and Lakers (though I don't know if the feeling is mutual in this case) yes, but the Bulls were just the better team that happened to beat them two straight years.


I never thought of the Bulls as a true rival either. Like Moses said, the opposite conference thing kinda kills that idea since they're not competing with each other for division titles or playoff seeding every year. I'd add Portland and Seattle to your list of Jazz rivals; in the Stockton/Malone era, I'd actually rank both of them higher than the Lakers. The Lakers were the biggest rivals of the DWill/Boozer era, obviously.
   1479. Howling John Shade Posted: May 14, 2014 at 09:29 PM (#4707040)
Someone pointed out on twitter that this contract is worth about $10 million more than Kerr made in his entire NBA career as a player. It's also almost 3 times what they paid Mark Jackson.
   1480. Howling John Shade Posted: May 14, 2014 at 09:32 PM (#4707044)
We are seeing some epic comebacks/chokes in these playoffs.
   1481. RollingWave Posted: May 14, 2014 at 09:36 PM (#4707048)
Oh now this gets a bit interesting..
   1482. Howling John Shade Posted: May 14, 2014 at 09:38 PM (#4707050)
LOL. And we get the exact same scenario we had last night with Jackson/Barnes.

Edit: and the same call.
   1483. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: May 14, 2014 at 09:39 PM (#4707051)
This should be Brooklyn ball because LeBron slapped his hand as per the discussion we had earlier.

As per post 1443.
   1484. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: May 14, 2014 at 09:40 PM (#4707053)
Someone pointed out on twitter that this contract is worth about $10 million more than Kerr made in his entire NBA career as a player.

My first thought - that just can't be right. And yet, it is. $15.8 mil. Didn't hit the $1mil/yr mark until his 10th season, when he signed with the Spurs.

It's also almost 3 times what they paid Mark Jackson.

He should send Phil a nice thank you book.
   1485. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: May 14, 2014 at 09:43 PM (#4707055)
James really locked down Joe Johnson there.
   1486. King Mekong Posted: May 14, 2014 at 09:44 PM (#4707056)
Wow, Jason Kidd is terrible at ATOs and constructing an offense.
   1487. andrewberg Posted: May 14, 2014 at 10:07 PM (#4707069)
Not a good free agency omen if Phil can't lure someone who already admires him.

The reason you don't hire Kidd is that he might run isos into Lebron with the season on the line.
   1488. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: May 14, 2014 at 10:07 PM (#4707071)
My first thought - that just can't be right. And yet, it is. $15.8 mil. Didn't hit the $1mil/yr mark until his 10th season, when he signed with the Spurs.

Michael Jordan made a combined 60 million dollars in 1997 and 1998. Prior to that, he had made "only" 25 million dollars. Salaries in the NBA have exploded in the last 15 to 20 years.
   1489. Howling John Shade Posted: May 14, 2014 at 10:52 PM (#4707091)
Any chance the Knicks go for the other Jackson now? I would guess not since he seems like a poor fit with Phil, but the Knicks fans I know have very fond memories of him.
   1490. theboyqueen Posted: May 14, 2014 at 11:20 PM (#4707101)
I highly doubt Phil is looking for anything but a true disciple. Rambis, Fisher, Shaw, and Cleamons seem like the likely guys.

With Kerr out though, the other obvious Jackson/Popovich guy is none other than Dennis Rodman. Please make it happen!
   1491. tshipman Posted: May 14, 2014 at 11:26 PM (#4707102)
Steve Kerr has never actually been a coach, correct? He was a GM with Phoenix.

That seems like a potentially poor decision by the Warriors.
   1492. Spivey Posted: May 14, 2014 at 11:33 PM (#4707105)
I've got to give Ginobili credit. When he looks bad, he looks really bad.
   1493. Spivey Posted: May 14, 2014 at 11:41 PM (#4707111)
KAWHI!
   1494. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: May 14, 2014 at 11:47 PM (#4707114)
This is exactly what Aldridge/Thompson/etc were referring to as far as race/culture/good ol boys network playing an underlying role in the GSW fiasco:
"'I knew him through friends — and through golf, quite frankly,' Lacob said of Kerr."
   1495. Spivey Posted: May 14, 2014 at 11:56 PM (#4707118)
Patty Mills does a really good Tony Parker impersonation. Though I think they'll struggle to win another series without a healthy Parker, I wouldn't completely rule it out.
   1496. theboyqueen Posted: May 15, 2014 at 12:16 AM (#4707123)
This is exactly what Aldridge/Thompson/etc were referring to as far as race/culture/good ol boys network playing an underlying role in the GSW fiasco:
"'I knew him through friends — and through golf, quite frankly,' Lacob said of Kerr."


Compare this to Sterling who in a senile haze doesn't want his girlfriend to hang out with black people but trusts them enough to pay them tons of money to run his team.

I can't fault Kerr for any of this (he seems like a decent enough guy) but Lacob really seems like a pile of douche. As I suspect are most people with the money to own professional sports franchises.
   1497. rr Posted: May 15, 2014 at 12:26 AM (#4707131)
Lowe is a big SVG supporter:

The salary cap does not apply to head coaches, and there are only a half-dozen or so guys who really move the needle. If you can get one of them, you should do it, even if it’s pricey. Van Gundy is one of those guys.


link

Van Gundy is obviously a smart guy, but I think the piece may be a little too effusive about him.
   1498. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: May 15, 2014 at 07:54 AM (#4707173)
I can't fault Kerr for any of this (he seems like a decent enough guy) but Lacob really seems like a pile of douche

Probably, but unlike the last couple of knuckleheads, at least the team is good. I have no idea what to expect of Kerr and I'm skeptical of hype candidates but, hey, the last guy they tabbed from the broadcast booth worked out ok.
   1499. Publius Publicola Posted: May 15, 2014 at 09:08 AM (#4707209)
dunno, it's just kinda pissing me off that in an alternate world were the atoms in Rose's ligaments are wound a little more sturdily Lebron might win 1 or 2 titles in Miami at most. Instead, it's looking like 3 at least, and that sucks.


C'mon. Knee injuries happen, especially to skinny point guards who like to penetrate the lane and take high degree of difficulty shots while moving laterally in the air. And it doesn't help that he has a coach who thinks the human body is made of titanium steel.
   1500. Publius Publicola Posted: May 15, 2014 at 09:12 AM (#4707211)
Compare this to Sterling who in a senile haze doesn't want his girlfriend to hang out with black people but trusts them enough to pay them tons of money to run his team.


Sterling senile? Seems more like he's pulled a page from Chin Gigante's playbook. First it was cancer. Now it's late-onset dementia. What next, Middle East Respiratory Syndrome?
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