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Thursday, April 03, 2014

OT: NBA Monthly Thread - April 2014

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about, which I forgot.

Have posts been building up inside you?

The District Attorney Posted: April 03, 2014 at 05:26 PM | 2387 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   2301. Publius Publicola Posted: June 01, 2014 at 09:47 PM (#4717060)
et there's selfish Russ Westbrook, playing in another WCF.


When Lowry and Dragic are paired up with the league's MVP, check back with me.
   2302. Publius Publicola Posted: June 01, 2014 at 09:54 PM (#4717064)
So what if he played 44 out of 53 minutes and the Thunder were +11 with him on the court?


Ha. Must have missed the other games by Westbrook:

Game 1: -13
Game 2: -34(!)
Game 3: +15
Game 4: +14
Game 5: -16
Game 6: +11

He was -23 for the series. And, of course, his team lost with the opposing team's star point guard on the bench the entire second half and overtime, when Westbrook tanked the season.

This is like shooting fish in a barrel.
   2303. Publius Publicola Posted: June 01, 2014 at 09:55 PM (#4717066)
Also, Ibaka is a freaking amazing player.


Two things:

1) he's very good. But he's not amazing.

2) if he's so amazing, why doesn't Westbrook get him the ball more?
   2304. smileyy Posted: June 01, 2014 at 09:55 PM (#4717067)
Kevin Durant and the Thunder were much better in the playoffs last year when not being dragged down by Russell Westbrook
   2305. Publius Publicola Posted: June 01, 2014 at 09:58 PM (#4717068)
Paul is obvious, Curry is arguable, but having watched these playoffs are you seriously going to argue that the Thunder would have been better off with Harden at the point than Westbrook?


Look at the numbers again and you tell me.
   2306. Publius Publicola Posted: June 01, 2014 at 10:03 PM (#4717072)
It seems like OKC is very sorely lacking a guy that can stand in the corner and drain open threes, dunnit?


Umm, there's this guy named Durant they have and... Also, Jackson made nearly 40%. Sefalosha made over 40% the prior 2 years. Don't know what happened to him this year. Hurt, sulking or frozen out? He's only 30 so it can't be age.
   2307. Publius Publicola Posted: June 01, 2014 at 10:04 PM (#4717073)
Kevin Durant and the Thunder were much better in the playoffs last year when not being dragged down by Russell Westbrook


Kevin Durant won the MVP this year when not being dragged down by Westbrook. The Thunder their longest winning streak of the year with Westbrook on injury reserve.

Who made it to the Western Conference Finals last year? The Spurs? Pshaw. The Thunder would have crushed the Spurs last year had they had Westbrook.

This is just sooo easy.
   2308. Amit Posted: June 01, 2014 at 10:04 PM (#4717074)
He was -23 for the series.
And that scrub Durant was -35 for the series! Reggie Jackson was at -31. Clearly the Thunder would be much better off without all three of them.
   2309. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: June 01, 2014 at 10:15 PM (#4717076)
Kevin Durant won the MVP this year when not being dragged down by Westbrook. The Thunder their longest winning streak of the year with Westbrook on injury reserve.


lulz

The Thunder had a .739 Win% with Westbrook playing versus .694 without.

Who made it to the Western Conference Finals last year? The Spurs? Pshaw. The Thunder would have crushed the Spurs last year had they had Westbrook.

This is just sooo easy.


Yep, lets just pretend that Ibaka didn't miss the first two games and that he played the last four clearly not at 100%. It's definitely Westbrook's fault they lost

   2310. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: June 01, 2014 at 10:20 PM (#4717079)
You would think Karl would be a good fit, right? The Thunder are already a great running team and their biggest weakness is poor spacing on offense.

I don't know how much I believe that you should give coaches credit/demerit for what happens in the playoffs, but if you do ... doesn't Karl look like a bad hire? He hasn't exactly covered himself in playoff success. Of course, there aren't really any guys available who have a great track record. SVG is in Detroit. Doc now looks to stay put with LAC. Phil is in New York, Spo's not going anywhere, and that about covers it. Maybe Larry Brown can come out of retirement again.

I think Karl is a great fit on paper, but I'm not sure that he puts you over the top. Probably the move I'd make if I were running things.


Yeah I'm not sure he puts them over the top either, but I think he'd make them even more fun and maybe a bit better than under Brooks.
   2311. Publius Publicola Posted: June 01, 2014 at 10:21 PM (#4717080)
Reggie Jackson was at -31.


Keep going.

Perkins was -12. Ibaka was +2.

On the other side of the ledger, Danny Green was +56. Tony Parker was + 16 (playing hurt).

Too easy.
   2312. Publius Publicola Posted: June 01, 2014 at 10:22 PM (#4717081)
Yep, lets just pretend that Ibaka didn't miss the first two games and that he played the last four clearly not at 100%.


Let's also pretend Westbrook's opposite number wasn't hurt either.

Too easy.

EDIT: Those +/- numbers in #2302 are amazingly schizophrenic.
   2313. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: June 01, 2014 at 10:35 PM (#4717086)
Let's also pretend Westbrook's opposite number wasn't hurt either.

Too easy.


Oh, one of the best PG in the NBA whom he thoroughly outplayed this series? And Parker wasn't hurt until game 4, and then not seriously until game 5.

The Spurs also have three elite players outside of Parker, plus one of the best coaches of all time.
   2314. Publius Publicola Posted: June 01, 2014 at 10:36 PM (#4717087)
Also, remember the regular season game when Durant lit up Lebron in his own joint for 33 and the Thunder won by 17?

Westbrook was out for that game.

But remember 3 weeks later when the Heat blowtorched the Thunder by 22 in OKC?

Westbrook was present for that one. Typical game for Westbrook. Shot poorly. Rebounded well. Got to the line and made his freebies. Turned the ball over too much.

Too, too easy.
   2315. theboyqueen Posted: June 01, 2014 at 10:40 PM (#4717092)
This is clearly not a rational matter for you, for whatever reason. I'm done with it.
   2316. Publius Publicola Posted: June 01, 2014 at 10:42 PM (#4717093)
Oh, one of the best PG in the NBA whom he thoroughly outplayed this series?


Umm, didn't you just read the +/- numbers? How on god's green earth do you interpret a +/- differential of 39 in Parker's favor as evidence that Westbrook outplayed him? That's kind of nutty. The only way is that, though you watched the games, you don't understand what you're looking at.

And Parker wasn't hurt until game 4, and then not seriously until game 5.


Wait. tony Parker wasn't seriously hurt until game 5, and yet the Spurs won both of those games.

Too easy. Too, too easy.
   2317. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: June 01, 2014 at 10:50 PM (#4717097)
Umm, didn't you just read the +/- numbers? How on god's green earth do you interpret a +/- differential of 39 in Parker's favor as evidence that Westbrook outplayed him? That's kind of nutty. The only way is that, though you watched the games, you don't understand what you're looking at.


Yes, the +/- numbers for 6 games clearly reflects only on Westbrook, not on the Thunder as a whole.

Just like Danny Green (+30, +24, -19, -8, +14, +15 for a total of +56) clearly outplayed Durant this series (-17, -26, +19, +14, -22, -3 for a total of -35).

Also since +/- is the only thing that matters, you must believe that Durant was worse than Westbrook since the Thunder had an even worse point differential with him on the floor this series.
   2318. steagles Posted: June 01, 2014 at 11:07 PM (#4717103)
thunder beiber had the best take on this so far w/ [2290]:
Critics say the same things about a guy like Westbrook that was said about Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan (so selfish!) before the criticism got buried under an avalanche of rings. We won't mention the criticisms of Lebron (afraid of the moment), KG (too UNselfish), or Dirk (weak-minded), but isn't in convenient how there's always a simple narrative — not the exactly amount of "team player" in them — for guys who don't win? Then these guys find themselves with better teammates and, BOOM! A ring! How strange.

The critics who spend the most time hammering home the "not a team player" critique are also the same guys who ignore the rest of the team when analyzing what actually happened.
westbrook (and durant/ibaka) has three things going against him: bad coach, bad role players and the team isn't experienced enough. the deeper you go into the playoffs, the more those things will hurt you.
   2319. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: June 01, 2014 at 11:13 PM (#4717106)
When Lowry and Dragic are paired up with the league's MVP, check back with me.
Can we check with Chris Paul? He had Griffin, Jordan, and the Sixth Man of the year, not to mention a ring-winning coach.

For a guy who talk incessantly about team play, you sure spend a lot of time insisting the rest of the team doesn't matter.
   2320. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 01, 2014 at 11:16 PM (#4717109)
Not to mention the fact OKC has had a hell of a time keeping their best players healthy at the same time. Getting destroyed in Games 1 and 2 without Ibaka put them in an impossible position against the Spurs.

I doubt Westbrook is quite good enough to be the best guy on a title team, but he damn well looks good enough to be the second-best guy on a title team. Some help and some health wouldn't go amiss. OKC would look awfully hard to beat to me if they had a corner-three guy and a big-time banger/rebounder. LeBron has those things; Durant doesn't. It seems likely that makes a difference.

A better coach will probably help, but the team still looks short on depth, doesn't it?
   2321. King Mekong Posted: June 01, 2014 at 11:23 PM (#4717115)
What exactly is your position vis a vis Westbrook Publius? You keep throwing up and knocking down different straw-men and ignoring evidence. I'd be happy to discuss whether Westbrook had a good series or not, but quoting +/- without context is not a good way to do that, especially when you ignore the initial qualifier where I said especially after Ibaka came back. That was a pretty big change for the Thunder that had cascading effects on their offense and defense in a way that effects series cumulative raw +/-.


edit: or what 2322 said, or 2295 - that was funny.
   2322. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 01, 2014 at 11:25 PM (#4717116)
800 posts of slinging +/- and the like around is the very image of using statistics the way a drunk uses a lamppost, for both Kevin and the legions who refuse to quit feeding the ####### troll already.
   2323. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: June 01, 2014 at 11:48 PM (#4717122)
Yeah, at this point, can we just all agree not to engage kevin?
   2324. rr Posted: June 01, 2014 at 11:51 PM (#4717123)
I have had this same conversation with Kevin, and occasionally with other guys here, about Kobe Bryant 5 or 6 different times, starting in 2007, and I always ended up where Hombre is: Basketball being a "team game" means, among other things, that all the guys on the team's individual talent, or lack of it, affects the team's results, as does the coach. Westbrook (like Bryant) shoots too much sometimes and he has his faults, but he is not the reason that OKC is not in the Finals, just like Bryant wasn't the reason that the Lakers didn't win anything between 2003 and 2009. OKC's problems are:

1. Too many guys with serious limitations on O getting heavy minutes--Sefolosha and Perkins being the main ones.
2. Brooks focuses too much on veteran grinder types, continuing to play Perkins, Fisher, and then also Butler, a lot.
3. Brooks does not appear to be a particularly creative coach on O. He seems to be an example of the Bill James thing about baseball managers--even a good one may no longer be the right guy when the team's needs change.

Also, yes, they lost to Memphis (when Westbrook was out), but look at the other teams that they have lost to: 2010 Lakers, 2011 Mavericks, 2012 Heat, and 2014 Spurs. So, they have come up short against two of the greatest coaches ever, and another outstanding coach in Carlisle. Spoelstra is certainly a good coach as well and may be some day known as a great one. They have lost to Kobe/Pau (with Artest brought in specifically to bother Durant and other big-time 3s) starting their drive to a B2B, Dirk and Co on a roll to the title, LeBron James driving for his first ring, and now Duncan and Co., excellent as always, looking for revenge against The Heatles. It doesn't take many flaws to come up short in that context, and of course 3 of those teams won the title, and the fourth very well might.

So, Presti needs to replace the super-old guys and get a floor spacer, and he needs to decide about Scott Brooks. The fact that Russell Westbrook is a score-first PG is not the problem.
   2325. RollingWave Posted: June 02, 2014 at 04:55 AM (#4717152)
The funny thing is that before this year Thabo WAS that floor spacer, and Derek Fisher actually hit enough 3s to justify being out there most of the time.

The only guy that literally can't do anything with the ball is probably Perkins, the rest of them at least have some track record of being able to hit open shots, and when you have KD and Westbrook it is inexplicable that you can't consistently get open shots.
   2326. RollingWave Posted: June 02, 2014 at 05:15 AM (#4717153)
As for Westbrook, I think he's a really damn good, if wild player, the problem is generally what we've been noting for a long time, that his ability doesn't compliment Durant particularly well.

Here's a fun thought, what if you swap Mike Conley with Russell Westbrook? that seems like a deal where both team might get better.

They really need to move on from Kendrick Perkins somehow though, it's not juts the total lack of offensive game, it's that even his defensive game isn't particularly good anymore. and his offense is beyond bad, it's so bad that Steven Adams, a guy who was drafted noting that he was exceptionally raw, easily out did him offensively.

Most ideally if they can get say.. Omer Asik, that would do them a ton of good, Asik's also quiet bad offensively, but at least he doesn't ask for the ball just to turn it over, and can stay on the court for more than 20 min.





   2327. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: June 02, 2014 at 07:42 AM (#4717162)
I have had this same conversation with Kevin, and occasionally with other guys here, about Kobe Bryant 5 or 6 different times, starting in 2007, and I always ended up where Hombre is: Basketball being a "team game" means, among other things, that all the guys on the team's individual talent, or lack of it, affects the team's results, as does the coach. Westbrook (like Bryant) shoots too much sometimes and he has his faults, but he is not the reason that OKC is not in the Finals, just like Bryant wasn't the reason that the Lakers didn't win anything between 2003 and 2009.

Sure, I would agree with that. But the flip side is also true, and you have to acknowledge that Kobe gets waaaay too much credit for the RINGZZZ the Lakers did win with him. Which isn't to say that he isn't a great player. The team game aspect cuts both ways. And if it is fair to excuse Bryant for the failures of the Lakers, then it is also fair to question who deserves credit for their successes.

Ultimately, I think he is kinda like Carmelo Anthony, with better coaching and teammates. Take away Phil, Shaq and Pau, and how many rings does Kobe get. I doubt any more than Anthony has now.
   2328. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: June 02, 2014 at 07:45 AM (#4717163)
Ultimately, I think he is kinda like Carmelo Anthony, with better coaching and teammates. Take away Phil, Shaq and Pau, and how many rings does Kobe get. I doubt any more than Anthony has now.

No.
   2329. Publius Publicola Posted: June 02, 2014 at 09:02 AM (#4717181)
Robin, hombre isn't saying that. I'm the one saying basketball is a team game, and it's the point guards responsibility to get people the ball in places where they feel comfortable and can do some damage. Hombre is saying the opposite of that. He's saying that if Westbrook gets his numbers, then he played fine and it's up to everyone else to get theirs somehow too.

BTW, the Kobe analogy only goes so far. First, Even if granted Kobe is a little too quick on the trigger, at least he makes his shots. Westbrook isn't anywhere near Kobe is as a shotmaker. Second, Kobe doesn't play the point, and so doesn't have the responsibility of primary setup man that Westbrook has.
   2330. theboyqueen Posted: June 02, 2014 at 09:42 AM (#4717203)
Sure, I would agree with that. But the flip side is also true, and you have to acknowledge that Kobe gets waaaay too much credit for the RINGZZZ the Lakers did win with him. Which isn't to say that he isn't a great player. The team game aspect cuts both ways. And if it is fair to excuse Bryant for the failures of the Lakers, then it is also fair to question who deserves credit for their successes.

Ultimately, I think he is kinda like Carmelo Anthony, with better coaching and teammates. Take away Phil, Shaq and Pau, and how many rings does Kobe get. I doubt any more than Anthony has now.


Carmelo has Phil now, and Shaq and Pau are probably available! Maybe Shaq can coach the Knicks.

The main thing I get out of your post is that Carmelo has been screwed by inept management his entire pro career.
   2331. theboyqueen Posted: June 02, 2014 at 09:49 AM (#4717204)
Seriously, the best team Carmelo has been on were the 2008-2009 Nuggets. The second best player on that team was a 32 year old Chauncey Billups. That team made it to the conference finals somehow, losing to the eventual champion Kobe/Pau Lakers.

Is a 32 year old Chauncey Billups the best player Carmelo has ever played with? That's pretty freaking sad.
   2332. JJ1986 Posted: June 02, 2014 at 09:52 AM (#4717206)
Is a 32 year old Chauncey Billups the best player Carmelo has ever played with? That's pretty freaking sad.


I think Tyson Chandler last year (2012-13) was at least as good. The problem was that team's third best player was JR Smith and 4th best was Ray Felton.
   2333. Publius Publicola Posted: June 02, 2014 at 10:00 AM (#4717213)
Is a 32 year old Chauncey Billups the best player Carmelo has ever played with? That's pretty freaking sad.



Well, he did choose to go to NY. He could have settled for less moolah like Lebron and KG and gone somewhere with better talent instead.
   2334. MikeOberly Posted: June 02, 2014 at 10:45 AM (#4717245)
Here's a fun thought, what if you swap Mike Conley with Russell Westbrook? that seems like a deal where both team might get better.


I have thought about that specific trade. First I think it'd make OKC better, but then I think 'no way'. Hard to say, Westbrook is so good, despite his flaws.
   2335. theboyqueen Posted: June 02, 2014 at 11:19 AM (#4717284)
I think Conley is a tremendous player. I am not convinced that trade makes OKC better but it probably makes Memphis worse (Westbrook is not a great pick and roll player, for whatever reason). Unless Scott Brooks has something to do with why the Thunder don't run PNR with Westbrook and Durant -- seems like that would be unstoppable, especially if Durant developed any kind of post game.

I wonder if Durant is strong enough to really be as effective as he could be. He's really a more of a 6'10", slashing two guard offensively. Maybe he can't set picks and play off the block because he's too skinny.

Westbrook reminds me most of a bigger, tougher Kevin Johnson.
   2336. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: June 02, 2014 at 11:22 AM (#4717289)
westbrook (and durant/ibaka) has three things going against him: bad coach, bad role players and the team isn't experienced enough. the deeper you go into the playoffs, the more those things will hurt you.

There's one more thing: the Western Conference. Swap OKC and Miami, and the Thunder are likely going to their 3rd straight Finals and possibly 4th straight. Then the talk is whether OKC has a chance to be the greatest dynasty in modern NBA history rather than whether Westbrook is a bum. Of course the Heat's extraordinarily good fortune is largely of their own making. When the top 2 players in a conference and another of its top 5 players team up, there's bound to be a bit of a void in competition, at least initially. Dwight Howard's injury and then exit, Derrick Rose's injuries, Chris Paul staying in the West when he demanded a trade, and the Pacers' internal collapse have just been the icing on the cake that allowed the East to remain the eyesore that it is today.
   2337. theboyqueen Posted: June 02, 2014 at 11:31 AM (#4717298)
Well, he did choose to go to NY. He could have settled for less moolah like Lebron and KG and gone somewhere with better talent instead.


Kevin Garnett? The Kevin Garnett who skipped college? The Kevin Garnett who has made $328,562,398 salary in his career, which is the most in NBA history by some measure? The Kevin Garnett who was TRADED to the Celtics and then TRADED to the Nets? When exactly did Kevin Garnett turn down any money to go to a place with "better talent"?

You are raving, man.
   2338. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: June 02, 2014 at 12:01 PM (#4717334)
I'm the one saying basketball is a team game, and it's the point guards responsibility to get people the ball in places where they feel comfortable and can do some damage.
That's only partially true. It's possible to set up Ray Allen to score a bunch of points. It is NOT possible to set up Thabo or Perkins to get a bunch of points.
Hombre is saying the opposite of that. He's saying that if Westbrook gets his numbers, then he played fine and it's up to everyone else to get theirs somehow too.
You reduce it to numbers, yet when other players get NO numbers it's still Westbrook's fault? It's a team game; that means everyone on the team has to contribute, if not offensively then otherwise. 16 offensive rebounds by the Spurs can't be blamed on Westbrook. The Thunders' leading rebounders were Durant (14), Westbrook (7) and Derek Fisher (6). Where were the Thunder big men? Where were the garbage put-back points? If basketball is such a team game, why would anyone insist on only looking at one man's contributions on one side of the ball? It's beyond bizarre.

Even if you only look at the offense, look at the offense. Nobody on San Antonio got more than 5 assists, and the Spurs' five guards combined for all of 11 — Westbrook had 8 all by himself. The Spurs offense is predicated on ball movement and shooters getting to their spots.

OKC doesn't do that. They don't ask guys to find their spots or the ball to be swung around so everyone can touch it. It's Westbrook and Durant, and three guys setting picks. They don't roll to the basket, they don't go find a spot, they don't look for the ball. They try and free the two stars up for 50+ a game, and then the rest get their points off loose balls, put backs, and the occasional open trey. In that system, Westbrook does everything he's asked to do, and he does it so well that he's been in three straight WCFs, with a Finals appearance mixed in.

If you wanna claim to talk team play, talk about the team: the personnel, the system, the three other guys on the floor who're just watching the show.
   2339. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: June 02, 2014 at 12:02 PM (#4717337)
Is a 32 year old Chauncey Billups the best player Carmelo has ever played with? That's pretty freaking sad.
32-year-old Allen Iverson was the best player Carmelo ever played with.
   2340. Publius Publicola Posted: June 02, 2014 at 12:09 PM (#4717345)
When exactly did Kevin Garnett turn down any money to go to a place with "better talent"?


What does skipping college have to do with agreeing to be traded to Boston (Garnett had a no-trade clause and could have turned down Boston if he wanted to go elsewhere)?

Then, to accomodate the salaries of Garnett, Pierce and Allen, Ainge had to sign Garnett to an less-than-market extension that allowed enough airspace to gather key role players.

C'mon, everyone knows this. Lebron did the same thing going to Miami. Cleveland was wiling to pay im more.
   2341. Publius Publicola Posted: June 02, 2014 at 12:12 PM (#4717350)
OKC doesn't do that.


Obviously.
   2342. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: June 02, 2014 at 12:15 PM (#4717353)
By design.
   2343. vagab0nd (no longer an outl13r) Posted: June 02, 2014 at 12:27 PM (#4717362)
Ultimately, I think he is kinda like Carmelo Anthony, with better coaching and teammates. Take away Phil, Shaq and Pau, and how many rings does Kobe get. I doubt any more than Anthony has now.

No.


I don't understand the "No." Kobe is a way better player than Melo - the difference in defense is massive as is the gap in their competitiveness. That said, if you take away those pieces, it's highly unlikely he has any rings. No one wins a ring without high quality teammates and coaching.
   2344. rr Posted: June 02, 2014 at 01:01 PM (#4717395)
and you have to acknowledge that Kobe gets waaaay too much credit for the RINGZZZ the Lakers did win with him.


This is just another way of saying, "I don't like him."

There is no way to objectively measure how much credit Bryant should get for the Lakers' titles while he was there, just as there is no objective way to measure whether he is "overrated." It depends on who you listen to. If you listen to the traditional MSM, he is overrated. If you listen to the saberish crowd, which now has multiple outlets and is a huge part of the conversation, he is arguably underrated, and the credit he does get is generally grudging--as your post demonstrates perfectly.

What has to be "acknowledged" is that Bryant is/was not as good as James and Jordan and about 15-20 other guys, and that at the same time he has had one of the greatest careers ever. In terms of the conversation, the emotion and overstatement is on both sides.
   2345. rr Posted: June 02, 2014 at 01:12 PM (#4717402)
Take away Phil, Shaq and Pau, and how many rings does Kobe get. I doubt any more than Anthony has now.

One more time:

Jordan never won without Pippen and Phil.
Shaq never won without Kobe and Phil, or Riley and Wade.
James has never won without Bosh and Wade, and didn't win with Mike Brown.
Bird never won without McHale and Parish, and had Archibald the first time and Dennis Johnson the other two times.
Kareem never won without Oscar or Magic.
Magic never won without Kareem.
Garnett only won when he had Allen, Pierce, and Rondo.

Duncan, Olajuwon, and Nowitzki have won titles without a true "#2" but that is unusual.

Teams win titles, not players.
   2346. Srul Itza Posted: June 02, 2014 at 01:43 PM (#4717428)
Duncan? So Robinson and Parker (and Ginobli) don't count?
   2347. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 02, 2014 at 01:54 PM (#4717445)
No matter how you feel Robinson/Parker/Ginobli compare to the platonic ideal of a #2, Duncan certainly has had Popovich for his whole career.
   2348. rr Posted: June 02, 2014 at 01:57 PM (#4717448)
I was talking about one Spurs team--2003. The "titles" came from the fact there were multiple examples. Robinson was still very good, but he was 37. His playoff PER was 17.7. He was more valuable than that--D--but he wasn't DAVID ROBINSON by then. Parker and Ginobili had playoff PERs of 11.9 and 15.0, respectively. Duncan, meanwhile, rolled up a 28.4 playoff PER and a .279 WS/48. It was probably the most impressive run of his career.

And like I said, those one-man runs usually involve unusual context--like hot shooting nights by bench guys. 2003 was the Steve Kerr bombs-away year. Kerr, also 37, played 46 minutes in the post-season, but he had that one game against Dallas. Kerr's playoff WS/48 was .331, and his TS% was .862. And, the team SA beat, New Jersey, was part of that period when the East had no Finals-caliber teams.

But it was still an historic performance by Duncan.
   2349. rr Posted: June 02, 2014 at 01:57 PM (#4717449)
And, yes, Duncan has never won without Popovich.
   2350. Manny Coon Posted: June 02, 2014 at 02:15 PM (#4717469)
What has to be "acknowledged" is that Bryant is/was not as good as James and Jordan and about 15-20 other guys, and that at the same time he has had one of the greatest careers ever. In terms of the conversation, the emotion and overstatement is on both sides.


Now that Kobe's career is winding down some, I think this is becoming the more standard thought with Kobe. If Kobe was overrated it was more mid-career and during his title runs where the MSM would often say things like "best since Jordan", "best in the NBA", "top 5 all time" stuff about Kobe, but that stuff has slowed down in more recent years, particularly as Kobe has faded some, Lebron has won some titles, Duncan keeps going strong and guys like Nowitzki and Garnett eventually winning titles.
   2351. tshipman Posted: June 02, 2014 at 02:18 PM (#4717472)
More interesting to me than an endless rehash of the Kobe wars:

Who is the guy who came closest to doing it all on their own? IOW, no real second banana.

I'm going to say Hakeem in 94.
The 94 team had Otis Thorpe as probably their second best player. He averaged 14 points and 11 boards per game in the regular season with decent efficiency. In the playoffs, that went down to 11 points and 10 boards.

In 95, Clyde came over at the trading deadline, and was probably their second best guy--certainly in the playoffs. That seems much more like a traditional sidekick pairing.

So yeah: Hakeem in 94. Not a super famous/successful coach (Rudy T never won anything outside of those two years). No sidekick worth mentioning. Played better in the playoffs. Everyone else needs to get on the Dream's level.
   2352. rr Posted: June 02, 2014 at 02:32 PM (#4717488)
I'm going to say Hakeem in 94.


Probably true. While it is not Olajuwon's fault, that was of course Jordan's sabbatical year. One-man runs are unusual.

The 2011 Dallas team shot very well in post-season, and Chandler was much more valuable to that team than was reflected in his PER.

but that stuff has slowed down in more recent years


The voices in the internet media have changed as well. There are now as many, if not more, ex-blogger/saberish guys at ESPNNBA and SI.com etc. as there are traditional MSM NBA generalists. Pelton, Lowe, Haberstroh, Arnovitz, Strauss, Golliver, Mahoney, Ziller, Paine, and Moore, plus Abbott of course, all write for national outlets. It is that general type of group that has always pushed back the hardest against Kobe GOAT narratives.

Where you will still probably hear it some is on talking head TV, where many traditional generalists still hold sway.





   2353. andrewberg Posted: June 02, 2014 at 03:07 PM (#4717513)
Here is a trade for OKC: [HOU-MIN-OKC trade
   2354. theboyqueen Posted: June 02, 2014 at 03:14 PM (#4717516)
Who is the guy who came closest to doing it all on their own? IOW, no real second banana.


In terms of win share disparity between 1 and 2, the "modern" answer to this is actually Dwyane Wade 05-06. The Jabbar Bucks and Chamberlain Sixers have a greater disparity but mainly because their numbers are so absurd.

As far as the Rockets, win shares seems to like Otis Thorpe quite a bit.

The best example all time seems to be the ABA New York Nets with Dr. J, who seems tremendously underrated to me.

Obviously if we include runners up we get all kinds of examples, including Lebron's Cavs.
   2355. theboyqueen Posted: June 02, 2014 at 03:24 PM (#4717526)
Carmelo seems like a throwback to guys like Adrian Dantley and Bernard King that were somewhat mysteriously unstoppable, although I think he is in the process of developing really nice old man skills and will remain an effective player for a long time. Last year was arguably his best year to date. And unlike those guys, his teams have consistently outperformed reasonable expectations of them, just looking at their rosters at the beginning of a season. My prediction is that he will win more titles than Kevin Durant when all is said and done.
   2356. theboyqueen Posted: June 02, 2014 at 03:29 PM (#4717528)
Here is a trade for OKC: [HOU-MIN-OKC trade


Rubio, Parsons, Durant, Ibaka, and Asik would be an incredible starting 5, in every way I can think of. That is a very interesting trade, though Westbrook sulking in Minnesota could get ugly. The Rockets with Kevin Love seem exactly the same as the Rockets now, somehow, especially with Kevin McHale "coaching".
   2357. rr Posted: June 02, 2014 at 03:32 PM (#4717530)
2353:

Quite the blockbuster. I think Love and Dwight Howard on the same squad would be bad news for the rest of the NBA.
   2358. andrewberg Posted: June 02, 2014 at 03:33 PM (#4717531)
Who is the guy who came closest to doing it all on their own? IOW, no real second banana.


94 Hakeem, like you said, did it and was almost on his own. 07 Lebron almost did it, and was totally on his own. Kind of complementary cases.

Rudy T never won anything outside of those two years


It sounds to me like you're underestimating the heart of a champion. NEVER underestimate the heart of a champion.
   2359. rr Posted: June 02, 2014 at 03:37 PM (#4717533)
07 Lebron almost did it


Sort of. But they were overmatched in the Finals, and the East was weak. That team was the last Eastern Champ before Garnett and Allen went to Boston. James' 2009 season, when he had a 31.7 PER and they went 66-16 with Mo Williams and Z as the next two guys, was more impressive IMO.
   2360. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: June 02, 2014 at 03:37 PM (#4717534)
It sounds to me like you're underestimating the heart of a champion. NEVER underestimate the heart of a champion.
I get that reference. +1
   2361. theboyqueen Posted: June 02, 2014 at 03:42 PM (#4717536)
Quite the blockbuster. I think Love and Dwight Howard on the same squad would be bad news for the rest of the NBA.


Why? I'm not seeing it.
   2362. andrewberg Posted: June 02, 2014 at 03:42 PM (#4717537)
My prediction is that he will win more titles than Kevin Durant when all is said and done.


Wait, you are still talking about Carmelo? The only possible way I can imagine that is if he goes the Ray Allen route, becomes a complementary player, and gets traded to a team with much better players than him for a swan song. I think the ship has sailed for him to be a contender for Finals MVP.
   2363. rr Posted: June 02, 2014 at 03:45 PM (#4717539)
Why? I'm not seeing it.

________________________________________

Neither is Love, apparently:

Minnesota Timberwolves forward Kevin Love (front row, far right) took in Sunday’s Red Sox game from the EMC Club at Fenway Park. Seated immediately to Love’s right is his agent, Jeff Schwartz, who also represents former Celtics star Paul Pierce.

At around 9 p.m. on Friday, Bill Fairweather received a surprising phone call from one of his employees at The Greatest Bar, of which he is co-owner.

A few minutes later, Fairweather raced from his home on the North Shore to the establishment located across the street from TD Garden, home of the Celtics.


Apparently, Kevin Love had just walked in, unannounced


link
   2364. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 02, 2014 at 03:46 PM (#4717540)
The Knicks' Phil Jackson has been fined $25k for tampering with OKC's Derek Fisher.
   2365. andrewberg Posted: June 02, 2014 at 03:47 PM (#4717542)
James' 2009 season, when he had a 31.7 PER and they went 66-16 with Mo Williams and Z as the next two guys, was more impressive IMO.


Agreed. That 07 season was the start of his ascent, but he was better in 09. I just went with 07 since he actually made the Finals. I suppose Iverson in 01 was another one-man team, but that was just on offense and they had a very good defensive squad around him.
   2366. theboyqueen Posted: June 02, 2014 at 03:47 PM (#4717543)
Wait, you are still talking about Carmelo? The only possible way I can imagine that is if he goes the Ray Allen route, becomes a complementary player, and gets traded to a team with much better players than him for a swan song. I think the ship has sailed for him to be a contender for Finals MVP.


Yes, that's what I mean. He will be a very effective role player (something like Vince Carter's current incarnation) for a long time. He's got old man skills (really good post up game, and long range shooting seems to improve every year). He will always be able to use his ass to make space (which Durant can't do). I definitely don't think he will ever be a finals MVP.
   2367. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: June 02, 2014 at 03:49 PM (#4717545)
I'm going to say Hakeem in 94.
Hakeem's Rockets in '94 and '95 found the best match-up for themselves. The Knicks' and Magic's great strength was in their centers, and Hakeem was better than Ewing and Shaq at that moment in time. (Hakeem was better than Ewing at every moment in time.) For the Knicks outside of Ewing, you had Oak, Starks, Greg Anthony and Anthony Mason, grinders all, nobody explosive. Orlando had Penny Hardaway, Ho Grant, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott, Donald Royal, scorers but no one outside of Grant with any real toughness. Houston's Thorpe, Maxwell, Horry, Smith, with Cassell off the bench, did a bit of everything. All three teams revolved around their center play, and with Hakeem winning his battles, it made life a lot easier for his guys, while their opponents struggled with the unusual situation of not having their center dominate the floor.

In terms of win share disparity between 1 and 2, the "modern" answer to this is actually Dwyane Wade 05-06.
How many Win Shares did the refs get?

I kid! (But seriously, how many?)
   2368. theboyqueen Posted: June 02, 2014 at 03:49 PM (#4717546)
Aside from the white guy thing, what would Love want with the Celtics?
   2369. andrewberg Posted: June 02, 2014 at 03:52 PM (#4717551)
Yes, that's what I mean. He will be a very effective role player (something like Vince Carter's current incarnation) for a long time. He's got old man skills (really good post up game, and long range shooting seems to improve every year). He will always be able to use his ass to make space (which Durant can't do). I definitely don't think he will ever be a finals MVP.


That's fair, but I would not go so far as to predict championships for any particular role player. They are completely dependent on their surroundings and who knows if they will end up in the right situation. I think the reasoning for why he will age pretty well is sound, though.
   2370. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: June 02, 2014 at 03:56 PM (#4717555)
Melo's next contract is going to be for $100-$130mil. If he's going to find himself as a role player on a good team, it's not going to be anytime soon. He'll be 35ish, give or take a year, when that deal is up. I'd take Durant as far more likely to win a title than Melo, even at huge odds (and thus, more titles, as he's also so much younger).
   2371. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 02, 2014 at 03:58 PM (#4717558)
Aside from the white guy thing, what would Love want with the Celtics?


My source on this is some fairly breathless Boston-area reporting, so take it with a laaaarge grain of salt, but Love apparently likes both the Celtics tradition (I know, I know) and Ainge's proven ability to build a winner in a hurry, as he is at least publicly talking about how winning immediately is his biggest priority. The C's don't have much at the moment beyond Rondo, who only has one more year, but they do have a lot of assets that you could see as giving Ainge, if you're inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, the tools to do something like what he did between 07 and 08.

I don't take the talk all that seriously, as it is obviously in Love's best interests to have the Celtics bidding his value up whether or not he likes them, but if he's going to get traded to a team with the assets to get him that isn't very good right now, Boston isn't the worst bet to get siginficantly better fairly quickly.
   2372. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: June 02, 2014 at 04:03 PM (#4717568)
Aside from the white guy thing, what would Love want with the Celtics?
I think Love is sick and tired of Wolves ownership talking about him and what he isn't. Love's probably still steaming over the whole "I don't think Kevin Love is a star because he hasn't led us to the playoffs" thing, or about how he didn't get that five-year contract extension he wanted back in 2012. Love knows who's got picks and trade chits, and he's probably enjoying being loved by ownership, even if its not his own. He clearly wasn't happy two years ago, he's not happy now, and I think he'll force a trade somewhere, somehow.

I don't take the talk all that seriously, as it is obviously in Love's best interests to have the Celtics bidding his value up whether or not he likes them
I didn't think of this, but you're probably dead right on that as well.
   2373. tshipman Posted: June 02, 2014 at 04:11 PM (#4717581)
It sounds to me like you're underestimating the heart of a champion. NEVER underestimate the heart of a champion.


I laughed.

In terms of win share disparity between 1 and 2, the "modern" answer to this is actually Dwyane Wade 05-06. The Jabbar Bucks and Chamberlain Sixers have a greater disparity but mainly because their numbers are so absurd.


I don't think Wade is a good fit for the purposes of the exercise. Shaq had a 24.4 PER. WS doesn't like Shaq that season for whatever reason (Maybe the FT%?), but I think most reasonable observers would say that a center who gets you 20 points and 9 boards a night efficiently qualifies as a second banana.
Also, Wade had Riley as the coach (after SVG got knifed) and that would further disqualify him.

Here is a trade for OKC: [HOU-MIN-OKC trade


Now that ... that would be a hell of a challenge trade. OKC doesn't get either of the two best players in the deal, but improves depth to a tremendous degree and has a funky small ball line-up of Asik/Parsons/Durant/Jackson/Rubio. I don't know if I could pull the trigger on that deal, but man ... that would be gutsy.
This, of course, means it would never happen.

The Knicks' Phil Jackson has been fined $25k for tampering with OKC's Derek Fisher.

I guess we know who their next coach will be.
   2374. Booey Posted: June 02, 2014 at 04:12 PM (#4717583)
Agreed. That 07 season was the start of his ascent, but he was better in 09. I just went with 07 since he actually made the Finals. I suppose Iverson in 01 was another one-man team, but that was just on offense and they had a very good defensive squad around him.


Both the 2001 Sixers and 2007 Cavs probably would've been 1st round losers in the brutal West, though, and maybe 2nd round losers in a more balanced, typical year. I don't think either was really anywhere near Finals caliber, but someone had to make it out of the East by default.

What about Dwight in '09? I think they were a better team than either the 2001 Sixers or 2007 Cavs. They kinda remind me of the '94 Rockets, actually.
   2375. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: June 02, 2014 at 04:21 PM (#4717602)
In terms of win share disparity between 1 and 2, the "modern" answer to this is actually Dwyane Wade 05-06.

How do you figure? To me it looks like 02-03 Duncan beats him whether you go by regular season or playoff win shares.
   2376. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: June 02, 2014 at 04:25 PM (#4717606)
What about Dwight in '09? I think they were a better team than either the 2001 Sixers or 2007 Cavs. They kinda remind me of the '94 Rockets, actually.


That was a great Finals--Courtney Lee misses a potential game-winning layup in Game 2, the Lakers win in OT. Dwight clanks two free throws, and Fisher nails the game-tying 3 in Game 4, the Lakers win in OT.

In fact the whole playoffs were pretty good that year, with Dwight vs LeBron in the ECF and the Lakers toppling a fun Nuggets team in the WCF.
   2377. Manny Coon Posted: June 02, 2014 at 04:28 PM (#4717609)
I don't think Wade is a good fit for the purposes of the exercise. Shaq had a 24.4 PER. WS doesn't like Shaq that season for whatever reason (Maybe the FT%?)


FTs, but also minutes and turnovers. His turnover rate got even worse in the playoffs that year. Pretty crazy he had a playoff ORTG of only 100, despite shooting 61% and being a very good offensive rebounder.

Even a few extra turnovers here and there can really knock down a player's efficiency, but a lot people just look just at shooting numbers when trying gauge a player's efficiency.
   2378. Publius Publicola Posted: June 02, 2014 at 04:41 PM (#4717617)
Who is the guy who came closest to doing it all on their own?


I'd say either Barry in '75 or Walton in '77.
   2379. Publius Publicola Posted: June 02, 2014 at 04:46 PM (#4717620)
Carmelo seems like a throwback to guys like Adrian Dantley and Bernard King that were somewhat mysteriously unstoppable, although I think he is in the process of developing really nice old man skills and will remain an effective player for a long time. Last year was arguably his best year to date. And unlike those guys, his teams have consistently outperformed reasonable expectations of them, just looking at their rosters at the beginning of a season. My prediction is that he will win more titles than Kevin Durant when all is said and done.


If Carmelo wins even one, I'll be shocked. And in case of the small chance he ever does, it'll be because he's been paired with a true superstar.
   2380. Publius Publicola Posted: June 02, 2014 at 04:48 PM (#4717623)
Aside from the white guy thing, what would Love want with the Celtics?


Great organization, great young coach, great fanbase, ton of talent influx in the next 3 years.
   2381. theboyqueen Posted: June 02, 2014 at 04:51 PM (#4717626)
How do you figure? To me it looks like 02-03 Duncan beats him whether you go by regular season or playoff win shares.


Yeah I totally missed that one.
   2382. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: June 02, 2014 at 04:54 PM (#4717631)
Love would be taking a step back going to Boston now. I, for one, don't think that would be something he'd be interested in. Sure, the East is easier, but the C's minus Love are much worse than the Wolves minus Love (not the mention the assets the C's would have to give up to get him). There's also no real ties for him there, so this just reads as wishcasting to me.
   2383. andrewberg Posted: June 02, 2014 at 04:57 PM (#4717634)
Love would be taking a step back going to Boston now. I, for one, don't think that would be something he'd be interested in. Sure, the East is easier, but the C's minus Love are much worse than the Wolves minus Love (not the mention the assets the C's would have to give up to get him). There's also no real ties for him there, so this just reads as wishcasting to me.


One of my good friends is convinced that the Wolves should trade Love for the Celtics pick this year and the Nets' future picks, then do everything necessary to draft Gordon and Gary Harris this year. He thinks that a lineup of Rubio, Harris, Brewer, Gordon, and Dieng would be impossible to score against and they'd still have Martin and Pek to carry the offensive load when needed. I'm not sure I agree with him about that lineup because there is zero shooting, but it is fun to think about.
   2384. theboyqueen Posted: June 02, 2014 at 04:58 PM (#4717635)
I think Love is sick and tired of Wolves ownership talking about him and what he isn't. Love's probably still steaming over the whole "I don't think Kevin Love is a star because he hasn't led us to the playoffs" thing, or about how he didn't get that five-year contract extension he wanted back in 2012. Love knows who's got picks and trade chits, and he's probably enjoying being loved by ownership, even if its not his own. He clearly wasn't happy two years ago, he's not happy now, and I think he'll force a trade somewhere, somehow.


I have no doubt he's sick of the Wolves, but going to the Celtics as opposed to Golden State or Houston or Chicago or whatever seems like a pointless gamble. At best the Celtics are championship caliber in what, 3 years?

Also as a Californian who had to live in Boston for a year, it is not a smart lifestyle move either. The weather sucks, the cops are racist, it's inexplicably expensive, and the people are mostly quite unfriendly (though perhaps its better for white guys).
   2385. theboyqueen Posted: June 02, 2014 at 05:01 PM (#4717639)
He thinks that a lineup of Rubio, Harris, Brewer, Gordon, and Dieng would be impossible to score against and they'd still have Martin and Pek to carry the offensive load when needed.


That sounds like an all-time horrific offense to me.
   2386. Juilin Sandar to Conkling Speedwell (Arjun) Posted: June 02, 2014 at 05:08 PM (#4717642)
Here is a trade for OKC: [HOU-MIN-OKC trade

This is a fascinating deal, andrewberg. Been trying to unpack it for a little while. Very interesting.
   2387. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 02, 2014 at 05:12 PM (#4717647)
The weather sucks, the cops are racist, it's inexplicably expensive, and the people are mostly quite unfriendly (though perhaps its better for white guys).

Not to be flip, but the weather one there sounds like the only issue that would be a problem for a white Celtic star like Love would be.
   2388. rr Posted: June 02, 2014 at 05:14 PM (#4717648)
Great organization, great young coach, great fanbase, ton of talent influx in the next 3 years.


--

Save the fanboy stuff for redsarmy.com.

The Barry and Walton points are legit, though.

   2389. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: June 02, 2014 at 05:21 PM (#4717652)
That was a great Finals--Courtney Lee misses a potential game-winning layup in Game 2, the Lakers win in OT. Dwight clanks two free throws, and Fisher nails the game-tying 3 in Game 4, the Lakers win in OT.

In fact the whole playoffs were pretty good that year, with Dwight vs LeBron in the ECF and the Lakers toppling a fun Nuggets team in the WCF.
Those playoffs gave birth to the on-going BTF NBA OT treads. It was sweeeeeeeet.
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