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Saturday, February 02, 2013

OT: NBA Monthly Thread - February 2013

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: abstinence and William Howard Taft.

The District Attorney Posted: February 02, 2013 at 11:56 AM | 1151 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   501. GregD Posted: February 14, 2013 at 12:25 AM (#4369289)
Clippers with 46. In the first quarter.
Really? [checks score online] Whoa
   502. NJ in DC Posted: February 14, 2013 at 12:41 AM (#4369295)
Chris Paul is so good.
   503. Ebessan Posted: February 14, 2013 at 12:45 AM (#4369297)
that may have been the most sixerest lost of all sixers losses this season.

They actually got to the line more than 10 times, though. Progress!
   504. NJ in DC Posted: February 14, 2013 at 01:38 AM (#4369310)
Donatas Motiejunas is giving HOU some quality minutes tonight. Really have to wonder why HOU hasn't placed more of an emphasis on playing their young guys this season.

EDIT: I guess almost the entire team is young, but what I mean is that I don't understand why guys like Motiejunas, Terrence Jones, etc. weren't given more rope.
   505. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: February 14, 2013 at 01:52 AM (#4369313)
EDIT: I guess almost the entire team is young, but what I mean is that I don't understand why guys like Motiejunas, Terrence Jones, etc. weren't given more rope.
i would guess that has a lot to do with marcus morris shooting 38% from beyond the arc, and greg smith shooting 63% from the field.

just for a bit of fun, the rockets have 6 players (harden, parsons, patterson, delfino, asik, and morris) who've played 1000 minutes and have a higher TS% than anyone on the sixers roster (thaddeus young leads the team at .533). oh, and on top of those 6, you can also add the aforementioned smith who's shooting 63% but in only ~600 minutes.


   506. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: February 14, 2013 at 11:38 AM (#4369497)
Clippers with 46. In the first quarter.

The Bulls/C's game had a score of 49-43 at the end of the 3rd quarter. Boston scored 40% of their points in the 4th quarter.

Remember though, last night was the last game for all these teams before the All Star break. Those usually lead to some ugly scores.

---

Man, Rose is doing everything he can to dampen my optimism for this Bulls season:

“I really don’t know,” Rose said when asked about his return to the court. “I’m feeling good, but like I said, if it’s where it’s taking a long time and I’m still not feeling right, I don’t mind missing this year.”

When asked about what would signal to him personally that he was ready to play again, Rose responded, “Being able to dunk. I can’t dunk. I know that if I can dunk off stride, I know I’ll be out there playing, but I can’t.”

   507. AROM Posted: February 14, 2013 at 12:12 PM (#4369523)
I feel for Derek. It's been almost 20 years since I was able to dunk.
   508. andrewberg Posted: February 14, 2013 at 12:52 PM (#4369557)
I feel for Derek. It's been almost 20 years since I was able to dunk.


At least it's a good excuse. "AROM, why don't you play pro basketball?" "I can't dunk. Once I can dunk off stride, I'll be out there playing again."
   509. smileyy Posted: February 14, 2013 at 01:02 PM (#4369563)
How many people in this thread could ever dunk on a 10' rim?

I was about an inch or two off in terms of vertical, and my hands are a little bit too small to palm a basketball. My best attempts with a women's ball were able to get the ball over the rim, but not down into the basket. That was my senior year of high school. I don't think I ever really tried again when I got a little more athletic playing ultimate frisbee in college. I may have been able to get a women's ball in at that point. I'd need even more inches with a men's ball to make up for not being able to palm it.
   510. GregD Posted: February 14, 2013 at 01:06 PM (#4369568)
How many people in this thread could ever dunk on a 10' rim? I was about 1" off in terms of vertical, and my hands are a little bit too small to palm a basketball. My best attempts with a women's ball were able to get the ball over the rim, but not down into the basket. That was my senior year of high school. I don't think I ever really tried again when I got a little more athletic playing ultimate frisbee in college.
+1 exactly. tennis ball, yes. women's ball kind of almost maybe with some blinking. men's ball never
   511. Famous Original Joe C Posted: February 14, 2013 at 01:19 PM (#4369575)
How many people in this thread could ever dunk on a 10' rim?


Ha, no, never close. 5-10, not a leaper.
   512. jmurph Posted: February 14, 2013 at 01:20 PM (#4369576)
Could only rattle them in in college, so I never really counted it because I couldn't put it down clean. My problem* was that I jumped better off my right leg, but couldn't hold the ball as well with my left hand. I did give myself some seriously inflamed cartilage one summer working on it, though!

*Well technically my problem is that I'm not athletic enough, I was just trying to be more specific.
   513. NJ in DC Posted: February 14, 2013 at 01:21 PM (#4369577)
How many people in this thread could ever dunk on a 10' rim?

5'8.5". On a good day I can tap the rim.
   514. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: February 14, 2013 at 01:31 PM (#4369582)
And there's basically never been public suspicion of it, either. It's the most personality-driven, most "traditionally athletic" major league sport, and nobody seems to think that there's something going on there?


I've never bought the "doping wouldn't help at all in the NBA" argument, mainly because it's a load of horseshit, but I've never been very worked up about it. The comparison of stats across generations is a huge part of baseball, and a decent contact hitter being able to add 10% distance to most hits changes their competitive profile profoundly; but basketball relies on skill, creativity and height as much as athleticism. Quite a bit more than it, as long as you clear the (admittedly high) bar of minimum necessary athleticism. No steroid has been yet invented that can give you a good handle or a good FT%, let alone good peripheral vision, geometric creativity, spatial awareness, disciplined shot selection, or footwork in the post.

There's a quote from Hakeem in that youtube video of Dwight's workoutswhere he explains that, at the NBA level, getting shots off is just a matter of using your physical tools to get space. That is, the defender covers much of the space available for a potential shot release; you have to use deception and whatever combination of height, wingspan, speed, jumping ability, strength and ball handling you have to get your actual release somewhere beyond that. Cheating can only improve a couple of those tools; you still have to solve another puzzle every possession. Or, more briefly: steroids are not a huge deal in basketball for the same reasons Anthony Randolph is not an All-Star.

My dunking history is almost exactly the same as smileyy's, except I did manage to dunk a few women's balls and once got enough grip on a brand new leather men's ball to dunk it (juuuust barely) a handful of times.
   515. andrewberg Posted: February 14, 2013 at 01:38 PM (#4369586)
I could dunk with no defense on a running start when I was in college. That is not much of an accomplishment since I am 6'4, but my ankle was shredded as a toddler, so I have always been a two foot jumper which doesn't help. I was also a vegetrarian then and weighed about 20 lbs less, so I have let go of the dream. I did put up one of my best performances in a lawyer league game last night.
   516. Booey Posted: February 14, 2013 at 01:49 PM (#4369598)
How many people in this thread could ever dunk on a 10' rim?

Not even remotely close. I've got long fingers for my height (5'11) so I can palm a ball, but even at my athletic peak in my 20's, before my knee ligaments started ripping every 5 years like clockwork and before I put on my 30's...insulation...jumping was never one of my skills.

My 6'1 brother used to be able to dunk it occasionally.
   517. Fourth True Outcome Posted: February 14, 2013 at 02:15 PM (#4369631)
[S]teroids are not a huge deal in basketball for the same reasons Anthony Randolph is not an All-Star.


I mostly agree with this, but think it ignores the issue of stamina/recovery. One of the big points you see in any of the (more honest) accounts of ex-doper cyclists is that PEDs raise your level of performance, but, arguably more invaluably, allow you to perform at that level day in and day out in a way your body couldn't bear without them. Everybody agrees that the NBA season is too long; I have no idea how pervasive the use is, but there are certainly drugs which would help guys bring it in the fourth quarter on the second night of a back-to-back, or in the playoffs after already logging 90 games that season.


Dunking-wise, I'm 6'2" but have never really been close. When I played ultimate fairly competitively in college I could just about touch rim, but I'm not really a leaper and don't have long arms, so dunking on a regulation rim has never been close to possible for me. (I also can't come close to palming a ball, but I'm not close to the point where that would be an issue.)
   518. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: February 14, 2013 at 02:21 PM (#4369646)
How many people in this thread could ever dunk on a 10' rim?
I'm 6 foot even, and in my "prime" I could grab the rim with one hand and just barely grab the rim with both hands. I've dunked a basketball exactly once, in college during IM league warmups, and could never repeat it. I just couldn't elevate enough to get my hand AND the basketball over the rim — my hands aren't big enough to grip the ball enough to control it.

That was nearly 20 years ago. I'm nowhere near the rim now.
   519. AROM Posted: February 14, 2013 at 03:11 PM (#4369714)
I'm 6'3 and have been since I started high school. Hands not quite good enough to palm. Sort of, give me a minute to spread my fingers and postion the ball, and I can palm it, but that doesn't work off the dribble. First threw one down at age 17. I played every day in HS, and very often in college. At my best I was able to control the ball into the rim without palming or dunk 2 handed. Could hit my wrist on the rim. I was really skinny then, 140-150 pounds at that height, and it helps to not bring any extra baggage when trying for a takeoff.

Now I can hit the rim with the tips of my fingers on a good day.

Even if I could dunk, I'd be so far from NBA level that it's hard to fathom. I was very fast, decent ballhandler and OK shooter playing pickup ball or against guys on the HS team. But I saw early on how vast the jumps were in the abilities at different levels.

I watched a guy in my HS, 6'10, who was the star of the team, ran the floor well, good leaper, looked very athletic for his size. He went on to play for Duke in the late 80's. No, it wasn't Christian Laettner. It was his backup, and at Duke he barely got to play. When he did he looked like the prototypical big man stiff for the NCAA. The jump from there to the NBA has to be just as great, where the guys sitting at the end of NBA benches were generally star players in NCAA division I.

   520. madvillain Posted: February 14, 2013 at 03:26 PM (#4369734)
Basketball was always my worst sport, I'm 5-10 (and that's stretching it) in shoes and at my peak athleticism senior year of HS, I could scrape the rim. I ran a 4.8 forty that year too. Boy, those were the days.

Moses: hard to believe what Rose says sometimes. I think he's talking specifically about going up off of one foot on that knee but he's a two footed leaper 90% of the time anyways. Dunno, I just want to see him on the court, 90% of D Rose is better than 100% of most guys.
   521. Yardape Posted: February 14, 2013 at 03:31 PM (#4369743)
I could never quite get to the rim, though I tried hard before leaving basketball for distance running. It wouldn't have mattered anyway, as I can't palm a ball.
   522. Spivey Posted: February 14, 2013 at 03:31 PM (#4369744)
5'10 and I don't know that I've ever touched the rim. I seem to remember always being a couple of inches short.
   523. Spivey Posted: February 14, 2013 at 03:33 PM (#4369746)
Moses: hard to believe what Rose says sometimes. I think he's talking specifically about going up off of one foot on that knee but he's a two footed leaper 90% of the time anyways. Dunno, I just want to see him on the court, 90% of D Rose is better than 100% of most guys.

Didn't he tear his ACL playing at 90%? At this point, I think they'd be crazy to rush him - if he gets rushed back and gets hurt again, you could be well on your way to seriously ####### up his career.
   524. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: February 14, 2013 at 03:37 PM (#4369755)
6-0, but blew up my knees as a 11-year old. At my post-injury peak, got halfway up the net. I was also slow, couldn't pass, dribble, or shoot. Probably my best sport. (sigh)

AROM, not Erik Meek - was it? (wait - now I forget if you are from California or Maryland.) If so, he was a NBA draftee, at least.
   525. GregD Posted: February 14, 2013 at 03:40 PM (#4369761)
I watched a guy in my HS, 6'10, who was the star of the team, ran the floor well, good leaper, looked very athletic for his size. He went on to play for Duke in the late 80's. No, it wasn't Christian Laettner. It was his backup, and at Duke he barely got to play. When he did he looked like the prototypical big man stiff for the NCAA. The jump from there to the NBA has to be just as great, where the guys sitting at the end of NBA benches were generally star players in NCAA division I.
It is truly amazing. A friend of mine shot with Kurt Rambis a few times and said Rambis would just stroke 20 footers and kill people in HORSE...and in the NBA his job was never to even consider taking a shot.

I helped coach a team that played against Marcus Camby in high school and he hit threes on 2 of the first 3 possessions...and averages 1 made 3-pointer a season in the NBA.

At every level the leaps are so large. A family member was a ridiculous high school scorer--broke 50 and is the top scorer in our county history, went to a low-level D1 school and started...as the defensive specialist whose job was to move the ball on the perimeter until someone else got open.
   526. Kurt Posted: February 14, 2013 at 03:50 PM (#4369779)
6'2", long arms, decent-sized hands (could sort-of-barely-sometimes palm the ball), no injury excuses...and I could never come close. Just hilariously bad jumping ability. At my peak I could touch the rim with my fingertips, maybe the first knuckle, but that's it.
   527. smileyy Posted: February 14, 2013 at 03:59 PM (#4369794)
So, googling around some forums (terribly inaccurate, I know) suggests that a 6' person will have a standing reach of around 8'. Figuring that you need to get your fingertips to 10'6" to dunk, that's another 30" of vert that's required to dunk. Every little inch of height below the shoulder helps a whole lot when it comes to dunking.

I was probably 6'2" in basketball shoes (6'0.5" barefoot), and probably getting a max vert reaching 10'3". I guess I'm a little impressed by my probable 20-24" vert at that point.
   528. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: February 14, 2013 at 04:23 PM (#4369813)
this is an actual, real life advertisement for the penn state-illinois basketball game.


now, the ad was sent in an email by illinois and the pic is of the coach and his son following illinois' win over #1 ranked indiana, but even so, i'm gonna say that it is not a great idea to kick that particular hornet's nest.
   529. GregD Posted: February 14, 2013 at 04:28 PM (#4369816)
now, the ad was sent in an email by illinois and the pic is of the coach and his son following illinois' win over #1 ranked indiana, but even so, i'm gonna say that it is not a great idea to kick that particular hornet's nest.
this is why you pay someone to look over your work and say, "i know why you think this is a good idea but it's actually a very very bad idea"
   530. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: February 14, 2013 at 04:29 PM (#4369818)
5-foot-7. I could barely touch the net.
   531. robinred Posted: February 14, 2013 at 04:37 PM (#4369822)
6' on the nose, could get rim consistently in my youth, but could never come close to actually throwing down. Played PG; sort of a HS version of Steve Blake (sad, I know).
   532. JC in DC Posted: February 14, 2013 at 04:50 PM (#4369833)
6' or 6'1", but with freakish length. Known for long, spidery arms and could get up pretty well. The best I could do, which peaked in graduate school, was dunk a woman's ball. I can still occasionally grab the rim if all is right: right shoes, feeling right, good floor, but otherwise, I miss grabbing the rim more often than not. I could only dunk jumping off my right leg and using my left hand. I lost the pinky on my left hand as a kid, so holding the ball was always the problem. The girl's ball was easy.

Did any of you ever measure your jumping ability? I can remember this contraption we had to jump and tap as high as we could. The highest I got (10th grade) was 26".



   533. Ebessan Posted: February 14, 2013 at 04:51 PM (#4369835)
Or, more briefly: steroids are not a huge deal in basketball for the same reasons Anthony Randolph is not an All-Star.

I don't really have an issue with decrying the usefulness of steroids, and I'm definitely a subscriber to the idea that a juiced ball was what was the most important thing in changing the offensive climate in baseball. So I don't particularly care about PED use in terms of how it has RUINED the game. (Believe me, I have other terrible theories to explain the changes in basketball that I don't like, like how the three-point line is what brought about the death of the "white gunner".)

But there's always, always the elephant of "intent" when discussing PED usage. It's about how these players are perceived, as the most extraordinary pure athletes in sports, yet steroids just don't come up as a root. Plus, the NBA has been )at least in my lifetime) the sport most marketed towards the youth market, because of the obviousness of the skills displayed and players on offer. If any sport should actually come under the scrutiny of its effect on THE CHILDREN!, shouldn't it be basketball? But there's nothing. It's just bizarre.
   534. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: February 14, 2013 at 04:53 PM (#4369837)
i don't think this has been mentioned here, but something interesting happened last night:

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Points
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 38387
2. Karl Malone* 36928
3. Michael Jordan* 32292
...
34. Vince Carter 21796
35. Larry Bird* 21791
   535. AROM Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:00 PM (#4369843)
At my best I probably had a 24-27 inch vertical, had to be around 30 inches in a running jump since I could get my wrist up to the rim. A few years ago the gym at work did a vertical contest. Mine was only around 20. The best anyone did out of maybe 100 guys was 27. Now compare that to Draft Express. Doubt you'll find many guys there under 30.

AROM, not Erik Meek - was it?


Nope. Clay Buckley. Not drafted by the NBA.
   536. jmurph Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:08 PM (#4369851)
i don't think this has been mentioned here, but something interesting happened last night:

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Points
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 38387
2. Karl Malone* 36928
3. Michael Jordan* 32292
...
34. Vince Carter 21796
35. Larry Bird* 21791


You shut your mouth when you're posting here STEAGLES!

Nah, what are you gonna do. Longevity, being the guy for a number of years on some bad teams (rather than being the guy among other great guys on some great teams), etc. Plus, let's be honest, Vince was a damn fine scorer for a few years there in Toronto. That Sixers/Raptors series with Iverson and Vince taking turns piling up points was good times.
   537. andrewberg Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:12 PM (#4369853)
34. Vince Carter 21796
35. Larry Bird* 21791


Yeah, Vince has scored a ton of points. Career point totals are not what people usually cite as evidence of Bird's greatness, and it's pretty much exhibit A for Carter, so I don't know if that proves much.

It is probably fair to say that he has become somewhat underrated for his career. He left Toronto on such bad terms and many never forgave him.
   538. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:15 PM (#4369859)
Ack! Buckley was my first thought (for some strange reason), but I remembered him being from Pennsylvania or Delaware or something.

I told a Celts fan about Vince this morning, then laughed at his sour reaction.

   539. robinred Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:16 PM (#4369860)
I would imagine that Simmons Tweeted about Carter and Bird.
   540. Booey Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:22 PM (#4369867)
34. Vince Carter 21796
35. Larry Bird* 21791


Should VC make the HOF? I'd like to say no, but he probably deserves it, right?

Edit: What about TMac?
   541. smileyy Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:31 PM (#4369873)
VC in a hypothetical NBA HOF makes for a very big hall, doesn't it?

I think this tells a good story of why VC shouldn't be in the HOF:

# of seasons with WS > .15*G Basically, the number of 12WS/82G seasons a player had. Vince's career says "High-volume NBA starter".

Edit: Am I setting too high of a bar there?
   542. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:32 PM (#4369874)
I can't even dunk in my (very) occasional basketball dreams, though at least a couple of times I've gotten a helluva lot closer than in real life (5'10ish, screwed up my left knee about the time I turned 13, small hands). I'm also slow, shoot much better (though not very well at all) from 3-point land than inside & can't dribble for crap ...

... but by god can I foul. I once scooped out an opponent's contact lens without actually touching his eye (which I guess wouldn't technically have been a foul).
   543. Yardape Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:38 PM (#4369879)
Should VC make the HOF? I'd like to say no, but he probably deserves it, right?


I would think so. He's not inner-circle, obviously, but I think he fits quite comfortably into the somewhat-lax standards of the HoF.
   544. Booey Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:40 PM (#4369882)
VC in a hypothetical NBA HOF makes for a very big hall, doesn't it?


The basketball HOF IS very big, and not even limited to NBA players.
   545. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:49 PM (#4369892)
The basketball HOF IS very big, and not even limited to NBA players.


Just for starting the February thread, The District Attorney is considered a pretty strong candidate for induction.
   546. nick swisher hygiene Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:53 PM (#4369899)
5'11" on the driver's license, smallish hands, generic wingspan, touched the rim ONCE.

but god damn it I TOUCHED that rim!

   547. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 14, 2013 at 06:03 PM (#4369917)
5'11" on the driver's license


I lived the lie for years -- decades -- that I was 5'11" 1/2. Not sure why I thought so ... or if I truly was, how I wound up at a bit less than 5'10" by last time at the doctor's office.

I know people shrink as they get older, but dammit I'm only in my early 50s.

*sigh*
   548. Spivey Posted: February 14, 2013 at 06:05 PM (#4369926)
TMac is much better than Vince Carter. TMac was a legit superstar for a few years there.

Edit: Stats don't totally back me up here, but McGrady did have a year where he led the league in WS/48. I'd still take his peak.
   549. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: February 14, 2013 at 06:31 PM (#4369948)
I had a front-row seat (literally) for T-Mac's time in Orlando, and his 2002-03 season was the best I had seen from any wing not named Jordan. He was AMAZING. Here's a great stat combo: For as much as T-Mac dominated the ball (Usage Rate of 35.2) that year, he almost never turned it over (career-low TOV% of 8.4).
   550. Booey Posted: February 14, 2013 at 06:34 PM (#4369949)
I lived the lie for years -- decades -- that I was 5'11" 1/2. Not sure why I thought so ... or if I truly was, how I wound up at a bit less than 5'10" by last time at the doctor's office.

From my experience 5'9" and 5'10" are generally the "suspicious" heights for men. I've met a lot of "5'9" men who are probably really around 5'7", and 5'8" and 5'9" men often say they're 5'10". I meet very few guys (unless it's really, really obvious) who will admit to being shorter than 5'9" (unless they're like 5'5" or 5'6", in which case they usually say 5'7").

Women are the opposite. My 5'11" or 6' sister always says she's 5'9".

And to bring all this back to basketball, I suspect many NBA heights aren't any more accurate.
   551. smileyy Posted: February 14, 2013 at 06:43 PM (#4369953)
I suspect many NBA heights aren't any more accurate.


DraftExpress, however, has a pretty extensive archive of pre-draft measurements. That'll give you a floor of a player's height (some players weren't done growing) for most players in the league.
   552. robinred Posted: February 14, 2013 at 08:29 PM (#4369999)
I may actually be 5'11 something now--I was measured at 6' years ago but that can change
over time.
   553. The District Attorney Posted: February 14, 2013 at 08:43 PM (#4370010)
Just for starting the February thread, The District Attorney is considered a pretty strong candidate for induction.
Bill James on his paysite was saying that Al McGuire wasn't a great coach, and in attempting to prove the quality of Marquette's program pre-McGuire, cited the fact that Tex Winter preceded him as coach and Winter is in the Hall of Fame. I was like, I'm not entirely sure why Tex Winter is in the Hall of Fame, but that is probably not a good argument...
   554. Booey Posted: February 14, 2013 at 09:23 PM (#4370043)
... but by god can I foul. I once scooped out an opponent's contact lens without actually touching his eye (which I guess wouldn't technically have been a foul).


That is indeed impressive. The best I ever did is cut someone's hand with my wedding ring while swiping for the ball.
   555. kpelton Posted: February 14, 2013 at 10:02 PM (#4370055)
5-9 -- legitimately -- and never have come close to the rim. However, I did teach myself to palm an NBA basketball. That's the upside of spending a lot of time waiting for players after practice next to the ball rack.
   556. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 14, 2013 at 10:26 PM (#4370061)
That is indeed impressive. The best I ever did is cut someone's hand with my wedding ring while swiping for the ball.


I'm still trying to figure out the physics of how the soles of both my shoes got blown out when I clotheslined a driving opponent. Served me right for playing so dirty, though.
   557. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: February 14, 2013 at 10:42 PM (#4370067)
I had that happen after a hard cut on a drive once. Think it's 'cause I had ###### shoes.

No MIA/OKC talk?
   558. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 14, 2013 at 10:42 PM (#4370068)
How many people in this thread could ever dunk on a 10' rim?


I am 5'3" (Yup, really short, like no kidding several standard deviations below normal), but it is a legit 5'3" (give or take a half inch). Go figure Mom and Dad both short (shorter than me even). And my kids will be taller than me, so there is some progress I guess. The oddest thing is for some reason people I know and work with often seem to forget how short I am, and I can tell when the suddenly are reminded of it.

And no never got close to the rim. Or the net. Or the top of that tall guys head. Such is life in Smallville.
   559. Into the Void Posted: February 14, 2013 at 10:53 PM (#4370074)
Good to see that we are back to the "Who's better, Kobe or Lebron?!" talk thanks to Jordan. Yes Michael, five beats one- and seven beats five, so Robert Horry is better than you.

   560. Spivey Posted: February 14, 2013 at 11:06 PM (#4370079)
No MIA/OKC talk?


LeBron James is out of his ####### mind right now. I'd enjoy if he didn't just stare down officials and storm off like a child every time a foul is called on him.

Westbrook is playing well.

I still think the difference between OKC and Miami is relatively small, but Miami can just out Thunder the Thunder.
   561. AROM Posted: February 14, 2013 at 11:26 PM (#4370086)
Tex Winter HOF:

All he really needed to make it was the triangle.
   562. Spivey Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:00 AM (#4370095)
LeBron James (and Kevin Durant, to a lesser extent) are really making greatness look so easy. Durant had a very inefficient start, and has been going absolutely crazy the second half, and has 40 points with a good TS%.

James has 39/12/7, does everything for Miami (on both ends) and is shooting 14/24 (likely to break his 60 fg% stretch).

They're both playing at such a level that they're really *never* having bad games.

Both LeBron and Durant have WS/48 above .300.

Duncan, Garnett, Shaq, Hakeem, and Kobe have no seasons at that level. Most of them don't even have a season close. Robinson's best is .296.

It's just one stat, but both of these guys are having historically great seasons. And it's really early to be saying this, but I'm going to say it - Durant looks well on track to be a better version of Larry Bird.
   563. Spivey Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:01 AM (#4370096)
The Lakers are losing 15-0? I guess I don't need to worry about staying up to watch this.
   564. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:01 AM (#4370097)
Clippers score the first 15 points of the game vs. the Lakers.
   565. Spivey Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:06 AM (#4370099)
LeBron has just been absolutely insane, a player at the top of his game. But I still do think Miami is a beatable team. LeBron has to be playing at the top of his game. If he has a poor shooting series, they're extremely vulnerable.
   566. bigboy1234 Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:06 AM (#4370100)
So turns out Lebron is still amazing.

And now we get the announcers being silly saying how Jamal Crawford should be in the all-star game and how others think so too. If you seriously think Jamal freaking Crawford should be on the Western conference all-star team you know nothing about basketball.
   567. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:41 AM (#4370109)
And now we get the announcers being idiots saying how Jamal Crawford should be in the all-star game and how others think so too. If you seriously think Jamal freaking Crawford should be on the Western conference all-star team you know nothing about basketball.
that had to have been chris webber.
LeBron has just been absolutely insane, a player at the top of his game. But I still do think Miami is a beatable team. LeBron has to be playing at the top of his game. If he has a poor shooting series, they're extremely vulnerable.
i've come to terms with the fact that the sixers are not likely to make the playoffs, and they really don't even deserve to, but if they get bynum back and he's healthy and they make a run after the all-star break and sneak into the playoffs and get matched against the heat in a 7 game series, they could do some damage.


the heat do have a gaping hole at center, and noone is more likely to expose that than a healthy bynum. and with the heat also lacking a conventional PG, jrue might be able thrive over that series, too. the sixers don't have anyone who can really match up with lebron or wade, but noone does. they do at least have lavoy allen who might be able to make himself a couple more million dollars by muscling up on chris bosh the same way he did against kevin garnett last year.


it'd be a hard fought series, but in the end, i'd say sixers in 5.
   568. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:53 AM (#4370113)
   569. bigboy1234 Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:55 AM (#4370115)
Wait, did you just say the Sixers would beat the Heat in 5 games?

Also, if Spo does the right thing (in my opinion) and starts giving Birdman ~25 minutes a game the Heat are going to get even better.
   570. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:56 AM (#4370116)
DAJ managed to shoot something worse than an airballed FT.
his feet are too narrow and he shotputted it.
   571. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:58 AM (#4370117)
Wait, did you just say the Sixers would beat the Heat in 5 games?
it's always good to see fresh faces in the NBA thread.
   572. Famous Original Joe C Posted: February 15, 2013 at 01:32 AM (#4370122)
Durant looks well on track to be a better version of Larry Bird


I don't think this is quite the right comparison. Bird was a MUCH better passer than Durant will ever be, as well as a better rebounder. Durant is the better scorer between the two of them, and a more efficient one at a much younger age (Bird didn't shoot 40% from 3 with 2+ attempts per game until his age 29 season), and certainly has a chance to have a much longer prime and better career as a whole, as long as he doesn't decide to do some paving at his mother's house in the offseason. Bird wasn't much of a 1-on-1 defender - I think Durant is certainly better there - but also did a great job filling passing lanes and breaking up fast breaks. I just don't see them as all that similar, though, other than the shooting percentages - I think they are both basically originals.

   573. PJ Martinez Posted: February 15, 2013 at 01:46 AM (#4370124)
Durant looks well on track to be a better version of Larry Bird.

Durant is young and an incredible player, but he will never be the passer Bird was or the rebounder Bird was. Durant's AST% has been on the upswing, but it's still well short of Bird's career number. (And just by the eye test, Bird was one of the best passers of our lifetimes, maybe *the* best from the forward spot, with LeBron the only obvious contender who comes to mind.)

As for rebounding, Bird's career TRB% is 14.5. Durant's never topped 11.8.

I'm not really sure how they compare at this early stage in Durant's career on the defensive end. By DRtg Bird started off much better than Durant did but Durant seems to be catching up (and his DRtg this year, 101, matches Bird's career number).

All of which is not to say that Durant will not prove the better player by the time his career his over, by the way. Just that they strike me as pretty different players. I've always thought the advanced metrics understate the value of Bird's all-around game, but I don't have anything to prove that and I'm super biased.
   574. Famous Original Joe C Posted: February 15, 2013 at 01:48 AM (#4370125)
PJ - I'll take a club soda with lime unless there's fountain coke available.

I've always thought the advanced metrics understate the value of Bird's all-around game, but I don't have anything to prove that and I'm super biased.


So do I and so am I.

   575. PJ Martinez Posted: February 15, 2013 at 01:53 AM (#4370126)
I prefer to think of #573 as the second draft of #572. Just filled out the details a bit.

You did mention the 3-point thing, though, which I didn't think of. Bird arrived just a touch too soon on that score. If his career started a decade later he probably would have taken far more advantage of the 3-point line; it just wasn't as much of a feature in anyone's offense when he started, IIRC.
   576. Famous Original Joe C Posted: February 15, 2013 at 01:59 AM (#4370128)
Ha, fair enough. And I agree on the three point thing - if 22 year old Larry Bird enters the NBA today he's probably shooting 5-6 threes per game from the start.
   577. RollingWave Posted: February 15, 2013 at 02:04 AM (#4370129)
Donatas Motiejunas is giving HOU some quality minutes tonight. Really have to wonder why HOU hasn't placed more of an emphasis on playing their young guys this season.

EDIT: I guess almost the entire team is young, but what I mean is that I don't understand why guys like Motiejunas, Terrence Jones, etc. weren't given more rope.


Well as you noted yourself, it's not like the Rockets are playing oldies in their stead, they're playing guys 1-2 years older.

The dig on Motiejunas seem to be that he's way too thin to stand a chance at center or power forward, he's quick and has a very good shot for a 7 footer, and seem to have pretty decent post moves too, but he's going to let a lot of big men plow right through him.

He's not going to be a conventional type player it seems, which seem to fit right in with the Rockets I guess, a team of 4.5 unconventional players. PFs that don't rebound, SFs that is tall and lanky, C that has no post move but good at every else, and two guards that are a bit of both PG and SG .

I honestly don't know why McHale don't try to experiment with a few more matchup though, like playing Greg Smith at 4 or something, or like you said, try to get Montiejunas and Jones into the game more. Jones seem to be closer to a conventional PF I'd think. But I guess they probably saw in practice that they'll get destroyed on post up or something. though I guess given Houston's position it is somewhat understandable to not experiement too much.

On the other hand, I also don't understand why Houston seem to be unable to pull a solid pick and roll to save their life when they have 2 guards who's best strength is driving to the hoop. The thing with Houston right now is that when they end up in a fixed half court set the odds of them scoring drops like a rock. they'll end up lobbing some shot (usually by Harden) while guarded by like 20 people and predictably comes no where close to hitting.





   578. Squash Posted: February 15, 2013 at 03:39 AM (#4370143)
LeBron is a beast right now. It seems like he's taken up the Harden strategy of only shooting 3s and at the rim, at least in this recent run. He would do well to keep going.

I'm 6'5" and used to be able to dunk like a ############. I could do 180s, I threw down a 360 in my prime. Dunking is pretty great.
   579. Spivey Posted: February 15, 2013 at 10:13 AM (#4370196)
Bird and Durant isn't a perfect comparison. I think mainly because of the passing. But Durant's getting a lot better at that, and his role in the offense has changed a bit with Harden gone. Also worth pointing out: Durant's age 23 and 24 seasons have almost identification AST% stats to Bird's 23 and 24 seasons.

I chalk up the rebounding difference mainly to Durant playing in a more athletic NBA. I think their defense is similar - at least based on what I hear from old timers about Bird. Both use their length to be better at defense than you'd expect (I think Durant's a legitimately good defender).

The scoring and shooting efficiently from all areas is the main thing.
   580. AROM Posted: February 15, 2013 at 10:32 AM (#4370204)
Both LeBron and Durant have WS/48 above .300.


Quite the elite list. Only seasons all time at that level:

Kareem (3)
Jordan (3)
Lebron
Wilt
   581. Spivey Posted: February 15, 2013 at 11:04 AM (#4370216)
Other LeBron and Durant stats:

LeBron is +18 on PER vs. Opponents (32.6 v 14.6)
Durant is +19.5 (30.8 v 11.3)
   582. NJ in DC Posted: February 15, 2013 at 11:41 AM (#4370239)
I’ve seen the idea expressed on some other boards that, to the extent LeBron is presently being overhyped (YMMV), it is in part because his peers, as far as superstar talent, aren’t as impressive as the superstars of the early aughts. Thoughts?
   583. Famous Original Joe C Posted: February 15, 2013 at 11:51 AM (#4370248)
aren’t as impressive as the superstars of the early aughts


Wait, what? Who? McGrady? Allen Iverson? Kobe and Shaq? Someone is seriously holding up the early aughts as a golden time for superstar talent? Spare me.
   584. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: February 15, 2013 at 11:56 AM (#4370250)
Ha, fair enough. And I agree on the three point thing - if 22 year old Larry Bird enters the NBA today he's probably shooting 5-6 threes per game from the start.

Yep, though not without cost (like less offensive rebounds).

I threw down a 360 in my prime.

I did that. Uh, on a 9' goal, maybe eight and a half. With one of those little balls. And barely.

I think the Rockets are doing a reasonable job with their frontcourt rotation. They've got a lot of interesting dudes and only so many minutes to go around, especially if they're worried about spacing. You could say Aldrich hasn't worked out, but he doesn't play much anyway and his size offers tactical value. I'm not a big Morris guy, but his 3pt% is in the high 30s - same for the starter Patterson.
To that end - remember how I talked up the Rockets' D league front court? One or two of Jones/Monte/Smith + Vernon Macklin + Tim Ohlbrecht + Hassan Whiteside? Wow. Seven big men have played for them and posted a PER for the season of at least 20.

Following is an edit:
I’ve seen the idea expressed on some other boards that, to the extent LeBron is presently being overhyped (YMMV), it is in part because his peers, as far as superstar talent, aren’t as impressive as the superstars of the early aughts. Thoughts?

I think they are mistaken.
Here's a follow-up statement/question: League quality is higher now than then (greater int'l presence, improved adaptation to rules like the three, etc..) and LeBron is farther ahead of the league than any of those dudes were in their day (the avg, not other stars). (If you want to say that LeBron has been overhyped *this week* due to a hot streak, I'd be more inclined to listen - but that's more a reaction to his being underhyped at other times.)
I don't know what the following means, but: I've never seen a player whose dominance was more self-evident.
   585. Spivey Posted: February 15, 2013 at 11:57 AM (#4370251)
I think the level of play is much higher now than it was in the early Aughts. Richard Jefferson was the 3rd best player on 2 time Finals team. I think generally the level of play gets higher all the time, but I think we are in particular in a golden age.

Chris Paul has a very good chance to go down as the best PG since Magic, maybe the best PG ever. Durant's a good chance to be better than any wing since Jordan (besides LeBron).

Howard, when healthy and motivated, is about as dominant as anyone non-Shaq division that was around back then.

Duncan, Garnett, Kobe and Nowitzki have all maintained extremely strong play during most of LeBron's prime. There are a ton of great point guards in the NBA right now. I don't see it, really.
   586. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:00 PM (#4370253)
I’ve seen the idea expressed on some other boards that, to the extent LeBron is presently being overhyped (YMMV), it is in part because his peers, as far as superstar talent, aren’t as impressive as the superstars of the early aughts. Thoughts?

Absurd. Take someone with LeBron's skillset and size, and he's going to dominate any era. In fact, he probably dominates more the further back you go. And as has been talked about here plenty, Durant really isn't that far behind him right now.
   587. jmurph Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:07 PM (#4370260)
Howard, when healthy and motivated, is about as dominant as anyone non-Shaq division that was around back then.


I'd only argue this point. Prime Howard isn't nearly as valuable as prime Duncan, Shaq, or Garnett, right?
   588. jmurph Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:09 PM (#4370261)
Generally, to the point, I think the late 90s/early 2000s was generally considered the worst stretch since the Magic/Bird era began, right?
   589. Booey Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:29 PM (#4370270)
I'd agree that the overall talent level is higher now than it was in the early 2000's. The early 2000's were pretty much the same as the 90's, where top teams had one or two superstars and not much else. Shaq and Kobe and...who? Duncan and Robinson and...who? The few deep all around teams (2000 Pacers and Blazers, 2002 Kings, etc) didn't win titles, so it didn't seem like many other front offices were trying to emulate them.

We're in the superfriends era now, where there's a lot more talent to go around and the top teams have a disproportionate amount of it.

And as has been pointed out, there was no shortage of great individual players during the bulk of LeBron's mid to late 2000's career. Guys like Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, and Howard were all still good enough to beat LeBron teams in the playoffs. And other guys like Kobe, Wade, and Paul just never got the chance.
   590. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:38 PM (#4370276)
Shaq and Kobe and...who?

For their first championship, the Lakers did have Glen Rice who was an excellent player. He made three AS teams and once averaged as much as 27 points per game.
   591. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:49 PM (#4370278)
Durant looks well on track to be a better version of Larry Bird.

I think he's more like a better version of Dominique Wilkins. He's Nique plus range and defensive discipline. Inside 20 feet both could get their shot off against anyone or get to the basket and finish with authority. Per 36 Nique averaged 25.2/6.8/2.5/1.3/0.6, while Durant has averaged 25.1/6.3/2.8/1.2/0.9. Durant is obviously better, largely because he's a much better pure shooter and a more effective defender. It's hard to compare them as distributors. Nique always shared the floor with Doc Rivers or Spud Webb, which kept his assists down and his turnover rate very low as well. Now that the Thunder don't have a ball-dominant backup pg or sg, the offense flows through Durant whenever he's on the court without Westbrook.

Both LeBron and Durant have WS/48 above .300.

Chris Paul is also knocking on the door at .297, after putting up .292, .284, and .278 in past years. His greatness continues to be somewhat overlooked. If Chris Paul had been drafted into the weak Eastern Conference to play alongside Josh Smith, Joe Johnson, Josh Childress, and Al Harrington, how differently would his career have played out? Would he have been to the Finals a couple times by now and be recognized as a top-5 all-time point guard? Would the Hawks have stunted his growth by having Joe Johnson act as the primary ballhandler, thereby preventing that young core from developing into a contender and depriving everyone of superstar CP3?

Side note: somehow the Clippers already have played 56 games, while the Heat and Knicks have played just 50. Seems like an unusually large disparity at the ASB, when I'd think the schedule-makers would want every team to be in roughly the same position.
   592. bigboy1234 Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:49 PM (#4370279)
Glen Rice was never excellent, was like above average and probably one of the more overrated players of his time. Also, more like an average player on that Lakers team, far far from a superstar.
   593. kpelton Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:58 PM (#4370283)
This method isn't perfect, but when Neil Paine took a look at measuring league quality, he found evidence that the early '00s were far worse than now:
http://www.basketballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=944

He expanded that in this year's book and found a peak of about '85-'88 before expansion diluted the talent pool.
   594. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: February 15, 2013 at 01:10 PM (#4370289)
Durant's game reminds me of McGrady - gets to the rack, shoots 3s, both have long, lean bodies. But Durant seems to give a crap, not to mention has the good fortune of far better teammates.
   595. NJ in DC Posted: February 15, 2013 at 01:15 PM (#4370293)
[594] McGrady was an amazing passer/ballhandler though. McGrady was like a supercharged Penny. Unfortunately, he had the same weakness.

Note: I did not check stats so forgive me if I am proven horrribly wrong.
   596. bigboy1234 Posted: February 15, 2013 at 01:24 PM (#4370296)
If you haven't already noticed, NBA.com has updated their statistical database quite nicely.

http://stats.nba.com/leaguePlayerGeneral.html
   597. NJ in DC Posted: February 15, 2013 at 01:34 PM (#4370298)
[593] Thanks for the link. It pretty much coincides with what I would subjectively think. The Celtics high ranking on the team list is a great feather in Garnett's All-Timer cap. By the way, how much autonomy do you and Tom have in deciding what you write for Per Diem (if you're allowed to share)?

Thanks to everyone else on the replies on the weak era question.
   598. andrewberg Posted: February 15, 2013 at 01:57 PM (#4370313)
I think people subconsciously do what Jordan did when he picked Kobe over Lebron when they say the early 00s were some sort of Golden Era. They look at Duncan, KG, Kobe, Kidd, Nash, Shaq and Dirk with their MVPs and/or rings and think of what an accomplished group it is. Meanwhile, Howard, Paul, Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Irving, Davis, Griffin, Love, Williams, Melo, Wall, and others (especially Rubio) could still get to that level of accomplishment. Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Parker, and Rose all have varying degrees of accolades already, and they will certainly be joined by some others in that group. I'm sure there will be some flameouts like McGrady who seem like they can reach higher heights but get derailed, but there are enough candidates that I am confident we will look back on this era as one full of transcendent stars.
   599. Spivey Posted: February 15, 2013 at 02:20 PM (#4370323)
Chris Paul is also knocking on the door at .297, after putting up .292, .284, and .278 in past years. His greatness continues to be somewhat overlooked. If Chris Paul had been drafted into the weak Eastern Conference to play alongside Josh Smith, Joe Johnson, Josh Childress, and Al Harrington, how differently would his career have played out? Would he have been to the Finals a couple times by now and be recognized as a top-5 all-time point guard? Would the Hawks have stunted his growth by having Joe Johnson act as the primary ballhandler, thereby preventing that young core from developing into a contender and depriving everyone of superstar CP3?


I'm so impressed by Chris Paul. I will say, as great as he is, and he is great - I thought he had a level of explosiveness in his early years he lost after his injury. He's still so smart, so good, and quite athletic. He has the best handles of any player I've ever seen. But Chris Paul in 07-08 was absolutely insane. I remember watching him extensively in their playoff series with the Spurs and thinking that he was literally unstoppable. His stats right now are just as good, so I may be off base. I think that is because he's improved non-athletic parts of his game though.
   600. Fourth True Outcome Posted: February 15, 2013 at 02:49 PM (#4370331)
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