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They actually got to the line more than 10 times, though. Progress!
EDIT: I guess almost the entire team is young, but what I mean is that I don't understand why guys like Motiejunas, Terrence Jones, etc. weren't given more rope.
just for a bit of fun, the rockets have 6 players (harden, parsons, patterson, delfino, asik, and morris) who've played 1000 minutes and have a higher TS% than anyone on the sixers roster (thaddeus young leads the team at .533). oh, and on top of those 6, you can also add the aforementioned smith who's shooting 63% but in only ~600 minutes.
The Bulls/C's game had a score of 49-43 at the end of the 3rd quarter. Boston scored 40% of their points in the 4th quarter.
Remember though, last night was the last game for all these teams before the All Star break. Those usually lead to some ugly scores.
---
Man, Rose is doing everything he can to dampen my optimism for this Bulls season:
At least it's a good excuse. "AROM, why don't you play pro basketball?" "I can't dunk. Once I can dunk off stride, I'll be out there playing again."
I was about an inch or two off in terms of vertical, and my hands are a little bit too small to palm a basketball. My best attempts with a women's ball were able to get the ball over the rim, but not down into the basket. That was my senior year of high school. I don't think I ever really tried again when I got a little more athletic playing ultimate frisbee in college. I may have been able to get a women's ball in at that point. I'd need even more inches with a men's ball to make up for not being able to palm it.
Ha, no, never close. 5-10, not a leaper.
*Well technically my problem is that I'm not athletic enough, I was just trying to be more specific.
5'8.5". On a good day I can tap the rim.
I've never bought the "doping wouldn't help at all in the NBA" argument, mainly because it's a load of horseshit, but I've never been very worked up about it. The comparison of stats across generations is a huge part of baseball, and a decent contact hitter being able to add 10% distance to most hits changes their competitive profile profoundly; but basketball relies on skill, creativity and height as much as athleticism. Quite a bit more than it, as long as you clear the (admittedly high) bar of minimum necessary athleticism. No steroid has been yet invented that can give you a good handle or a good FT%, let alone good peripheral vision, geometric creativity, spatial awareness, disciplined shot selection, or footwork in the post.
There's a quote from Hakeem in that youtube video of Dwight's workoutswhere he explains that, at the NBA level, getting shots off is just a matter of using your physical tools to get space. That is, the defender covers much of the space available for a potential shot release; you have to use deception and whatever combination of height, wingspan, speed, jumping ability, strength and ball handling you have to get your actual release somewhere beyond that. Cheating can only improve a couple of those tools; you still have to solve another puzzle every possession. Or, more briefly: steroids are not a huge deal in basketball for the same reasons Anthony Randolph is not an All-Star.
My dunking history is almost exactly the same as smileyy's, except I did manage to dunk a few women's balls and once got enough grip on a brand new leather men's ball to dunk it (juuuust barely) a handful of times.
Not even remotely close. I've got long fingers for my height (5'11) so I can palm a ball, but even at my athletic peak in my 20's, before my knee ligaments started ripping every 5 years like clockwork and before I put on my 30's...insulation...jumping was never one of my skills.
My 6'1 brother used to be able to dunk it occasionally.
I mostly agree with this, but think it ignores the issue of stamina/recovery. One of the big points you see in any of the (more honest) accounts of ex-doper cyclists is that PEDs raise your level of performance, but, arguably more invaluably, allow you to perform at that level day in and day out in a way your body couldn't bear without them. Everybody agrees that the NBA season is too long; I have no idea how pervasive the use is, but there are certainly drugs which would help guys bring it in the fourth quarter on the second night of a back-to-back, or in the playoffs after already logging 90 games that season.
Dunking-wise, I'm 6'2" but have never really been close. When I played ultimate fairly competitively in college I could just about touch rim, but I'm not really a leaper and don't have long arms, so dunking on a regulation rim has never been close to possible for me. (I also can't come close to palming a ball, but I'm not close to the point where that would be an issue.)
That was nearly 20 years ago. I'm nowhere near the rim now.
Now I can hit the rim with the tips of my fingers on a good day.
Even if I could dunk, I'd be so far from NBA level that it's hard to fathom. I was very fast, decent ballhandler and OK shooter playing pickup ball or against guys on the HS team. But I saw early on how vast the jumps were in the abilities at different levels.
I watched a guy in my HS, 6'10, who was the star of the team, ran the floor well, good leaper, looked very athletic for his size. He went on to play for Duke in the late 80's. No, it wasn't Christian Laettner. It was his backup, and at Duke he barely got to play. When he did he looked like the prototypical big man stiff for the NCAA. The jump from there to the NBA has to be just as great, where the guys sitting at the end of NBA benches were generally star players in NCAA division I.
Moses: hard to believe what Rose says sometimes. I think he's talking specifically about going up off of one foot on that knee but he's a two footed leaper 90% of the time anyways. Dunno, I just want to see him on the court, 90% of D Rose is better than 100% of most guys.
Didn't he tear his ACL playing at 90%? At this point, I think they'd be crazy to rush him - if he gets rushed back and gets hurt again, you could be well on your way to seriously ####### up his career.
AROM, not Erik Meek - was it? (wait - now I forget if you are from California or Maryland.) If so, he was a NBA draftee, at least.
I helped coach a team that played against Marcus Camby in high school and he hit threes on 2 of the first 3 possessions...and averages 1 made 3-pointer a season in the NBA.
At every level the leaps are so large. A family member was a ridiculous high school scorer--broke 50 and is the top scorer in our county history, went to a low-level D1 school and started...as the defensive specialist whose job was to move the ball on the perimeter until someone else got open.
I was probably 6'2" in basketball shoes (6'0.5" barefoot), and probably getting a max vert reaching 10'3". I guess I'm a little impressed by my probable 20-24" vert at that point.
now, the ad was sent in an email by illinois and the pic is of the coach and his son following illinois' win over #1 ranked indiana, but even so, i'm gonna say that it is not a great idea to kick that particular hornet's nest.
Did any of you ever measure your jumping ability? I can remember this contraption we had to jump and tap as high as we could. The highest I got (10th grade) was 26".
I don't really have an issue with decrying the usefulness of steroids, and I'm definitely a subscriber to the idea that a juiced ball was what was the most important thing in changing the offensive climate in baseball. So I don't particularly care about PED use in terms of how it has RUINED the game. (Believe me, I have other terrible theories to explain the changes in basketball that I don't like, like how the three-point line is what brought about the death of the "white gunner".)
But there's always, always the elephant of "intent" when discussing PED usage. It's about how these players are perceived, as the most extraordinary pure athletes in sports, yet steroids just don't come up as a root. Plus, the NBA has been )at least in my lifetime) the sport most marketed towards the youth market, because of the obviousness of the skills displayed and players on offer. If any sport should actually come under the scrutiny of its effect on THE CHILDREN!, shouldn't it be basketball? But there's nothing. It's just bizarre.
Nope. Clay Buckley. Not drafted by the NBA.
You shut your mouth when you're posting here STEAGLES!
Nah, what are you gonna do. Longevity, being the guy for a number of years on some bad teams (rather than being the guy among other great guys on some great teams), etc. Plus, let's be honest, Vince was a damn fine scorer for a few years there in Toronto. That Sixers/Raptors series with Iverson and Vince taking turns piling up points was good times.
Yeah, Vince has scored a ton of points. Career point totals are not what people usually cite as evidence of Bird's greatness, and it's pretty much exhibit A for Carter, so I don't know if that proves much.
It is probably fair to say that he has become somewhat underrated for his career. He left Toronto on such bad terms and many never forgave him.
I told a Celts fan about Vince this morning, then laughed at his sour reaction.
Should VC make the HOF? I'd like to say no, but he probably deserves it, right?
Edit: What about TMac?
I think this tells a good story of why VC shouldn't be in the HOF:
# of seasons with WS > .15*G Basically, the number of 12WS/82G seasons a player had. Vince's career says "High-volume NBA starter".
Edit: Am I setting too high of a bar there?
... but by god can I foul. I once scooped out an opponent's contact lens without actually touching his eye (which I guess wouldn't technically have been a foul).
I would think so. He's not inner-circle, obviously, but I think he fits quite comfortably into the somewhat-lax standards of the HoF.
The basketball HOF IS very big, and not even limited to NBA players.
Just for starting the February thread, The District Attorney is considered a pretty strong candidate for induction.
but god damn it I TOUCHED that rim!
I lived the lie for years -- decades -- that I was 5'11" 1/2. Not sure why I thought so ... or if I truly was, how I wound up at a bit less than 5'10" by last time at the doctor's office.
I know people shrink as they get older, but dammit I'm only in my early 50s.
*sigh*
Edit: Stats don't totally back me up here, but McGrady did have a year where he led the league in WS/48. I'd still take his peak.
From my experience 5'9" and 5'10" are generally the "suspicious" heights for men. I've met a lot of "5'9" men who are probably really around 5'7", and 5'8" and 5'9" men often say they're 5'10". I meet very few guys (unless it's really, really obvious) who will admit to being shorter than 5'9" (unless they're like 5'5" or 5'6", in which case they usually say 5'7").
Women are the opposite. My 5'11" or 6' sister always says she's 5'9".
And to bring all this back to basketball, I suspect many NBA heights aren't any more accurate.
DraftExpress, however, has a pretty extensive archive of pre-draft measurements. That'll give you a floor of a player's height (some players weren't done growing) for most players in the league.
over time.
That is indeed impressive. The best I ever did is cut someone's hand with my wedding ring while swiping for the ball.
I'm still trying to figure out the physics of how the soles of both my shoes got blown out when I clotheslined a driving opponent. Served me right for playing so dirty, though.
No MIA/OKC talk?
I am 5'3" (Yup, really short, like no kidding several standard deviations below normal), but it is a legit 5'3" (give or take a half inch). Go figure Mom and Dad both short (shorter than me even). And my kids will be taller than me, so there is some progress I guess. The oddest thing is for some reason people I know and work with often seem to forget how short I am, and I can tell when the suddenly are reminded of it.
And no never got close to the rim. Or the net. Or the top of that tall guys head. Such is life in Smallville.
LeBron James is out of his ####### mind right now. I'd enjoy if he didn't just stare down officials and storm off like a child every time a foul is called on him.
Westbrook is playing well.
I still think the difference between OKC and Miami is relatively small, but Miami can just out Thunder the Thunder.
All he really needed to make it was the triangle.
James has 39/12/7, does everything for Miami (on both ends) and is shooting 14/24 (likely to break his 60 fg% stretch).
They're both playing at such a level that they're really *never* having bad games.
Both LeBron and Durant have WS/48 above .300.
Duncan, Garnett, Shaq, Hakeem, and Kobe have no seasons at that level. Most of them don't even have a season close. Robinson's best is .296.
It's just one stat, but both of these guys are having historically great seasons. And it's really early to be saying this, but I'm going to say it - Durant looks well on track to be a better version of Larry Bird.
And now we get the announcers being silly saying how Jamal Crawford should be in the all-star game and how others think so too. If you seriously think Jamal freaking Crawford should be on the Western conference all-star team you know nothing about basketball.
the heat do have a gaping hole at center, and noone is more likely to expose that than a healthy bynum. and with the heat also lacking a conventional PG, jrue might be able thrive over that series, too. the sixers don't have anyone who can really match up with lebron or wade, but noone does. they do at least have lavoy allen who might be able to make himself a couple more million dollars by muscling up on chris bosh the same way he did against kevin garnett last year.
it'd be a hard fought series, but in the end, i'd say sixers in 5.
Also, if Spo does the right thing (in my opinion) and starts giving Birdman ~25 minutes a game the Heat are going to get even better.
I don't think this is quite the right comparison. Bird was a MUCH better passer than Durant will ever be, as well as a better rebounder. Durant is the better scorer between the two of them, and a more efficient one at a much younger age (Bird didn't shoot 40% from 3 with 2+ attempts per game until his age 29 season), and certainly has a chance to have a much longer prime and better career as a whole, as long as he doesn't decide to do some paving at his mother's house in the offseason. Bird wasn't much of a 1-on-1 defender - I think Durant is certainly better there - but also did a great job filling passing lanes and breaking up fast breaks. I just don't see them as all that similar, though, other than the shooting percentages - I think they are both basically originals.
Durant is young and an incredible player, but he will never be the passer Bird was or the rebounder Bird was. Durant's AST% has been on the upswing, but it's still well short of Bird's career number. (And just by the eye test, Bird was one of the best passers of our lifetimes, maybe *the* best from the forward spot, with LeBron the only obvious contender who comes to mind.)
As for rebounding, Bird's career TRB% is 14.5. Durant's never topped 11.8.
I'm not really sure how they compare at this early stage in Durant's career on the defensive end. By DRtg Bird started off much better than Durant did but Durant seems to be catching up (and his DRtg this year, 101, matches Bird's career number).
All of which is not to say that Durant will not prove the better player by the time his career his over, by the way. Just that they strike me as pretty different players. I've always thought the advanced metrics understate the value of Bird's all-around game, but I don't have anything to prove that and I'm super biased.
So do I and so am I.
You did mention the 3-point thing, though, which I didn't think of. Bird arrived just a touch too soon on that score. If his career started a decade later he probably would have taken far more advantage of the 3-point line; it just wasn't as much of a feature in anyone's offense when he started, IIRC.
Well as you noted yourself, it's not like the Rockets are playing oldies in their stead, they're playing guys 1-2 years older.
The dig on Motiejunas seem to be that he's way too thin to stand a chance at center or power forward, he's quick and has a very good shot for a 7 footer, and seem to have pretty decent post moves too, but he's going to let a lot of big men plow right through him.
He's not going to be a conventional type player it seems, which seem to fit right in with the Rockets I guess, a team of 4.5 unconventional players. PFs that don't rebound, SFs that is tall and lanky, C that has no post move but good at every else, and two guards that are a bit of both PG and SG .
I honestly don't know why McHale don't try to experiment with a few more matchup though, like playing Greg Smith at 4 or something, or like you said, try to get Montiejunas and Jones into the game more. Jones seem to be closer to a conventional PF I'd think. But I guess they probably saw in practice that they'll get destroyed on post up or something. though I guess given Houston's position it is somewhat understandable to not experiement too much.
On the other hand, I also don't understand why Houston seem to be unable to pull a solid pick and roll to save their life when they have 2 guards who's best strength is driving to the hoop. The thing with Houston right now is that when they end up in a fixed half court set the odds of them scoring drops like a rock. they'll end up lobbing some shot (usually by Harden) while guarded by like 20 people and predictably comes no where close to hitting.
I'm 6'5" and used to be able to dunk like a ############. I could do 180s, I threw down a 360 in my prime. Dunking is pretty great.
I chalk up the rebounding difference mainly to Durant playing in a more athletic NBA. I think their defense is similar - at least based on what I hear from old timers about Bird. Both use their length to be better at defense than you'd expect (I think Durant's a legitimately good defender).
The scoring and shooting efficiently from all areas is the main thing.
Quite the elite list. Only seasons all time at that level:
Kareem (3)
Jordan (3)
Lebron
Wilt
LeBron is +18 on PER vs. Opponents (32.6 v 14.6)
Durant is +19.5 (30.8 v 11.3)
Wait, what? Who? McGrady? Allen Iverson? Kobe and Shaq? Someone is seriously holding up the early aughts as a golden time for superstar talent? Spare me.
Yep, though not without cost (like less offensive rebounds).
I did that. Uh, on a 9' goal, maybe eight and a half. With one of those little balls. And barely.
I think the Rockets are doing a reasonable job with their frontcourt rotation. They've got a lot of interesting dudes and only so many minutes to go around, especially if they're worried about spacing. You could say Aldrich hasn't worked out, but he doesn't play much anyway and his size offers tactical value. I'm not a big Morris guy, but his 3pt% is in the high 30s - same for the starter Patterson.
To that end - remember how I talked up the Rockets' D league front court? One or two of Jones/Monte/Smith + Vernon Macklin + Tim Ohlbrecht + Hassan Whiteside? Wow. Seven big men have played for them and posted a PER for the season of at least 20.
Following is an edit:
I think they are mistaken.
Here's a follow-up statement/question: League quality is higher now than then (greater int'l presence, improved adaptation to rules like the three, etc..) and LeBron is farther ahead of the league than any of those dudes were in their day (the avg, not other stars). (If you want to say that LeBron has been overhyped *this week* due to a hot streak, I'd be more inclined to listen - but that's more a reaction to his being underhyped at other times.)
I don't know what the following means, but: I've never seen a player whose dominance was more self-evident.
Chris Paul has a very good chance to go down as the best PG since Magic, maybe the best PG ever. Durant's a good chance to be better than any wing since Jordan (besides LeBron).
Howard, when healthy and motivated, is about as dominant as anyone non-Shaq division that was around back then.
Duncan, Garnett, Kobe and Nowitzki have all maintained extremely strong play during most of LeBron's prime. There are a ton of great point guards in the NBA right now. I don't see it, really.
Absurd. Take someone with LeBron's skillset and size, and he's going to dominate any era. In fact, he probably dominates more the further back you go. And as has been talked about here plenty, Durant really isn't that far behind him right now.
I'd only argue this point. Prime Howard isn't nearly as valuable as prime Duncan, Shaq, or Garnett, right?
We're in the superfriends era now, where there's a lot more talent to go around and the top teams have a disproportionate amount of it.
And as has been pointed out, there was no shortage of great individual players during the bulk of LeBron's mid to late 2000's career. Guys like Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, and Howard were all still good enough to beat LeBron teams in the playoffs. And other guys like Kobe, Wade, and Paul just never got the chance.
For their first championship, the Lakers did have Glen Rice who was an excellent player. He made three AS teams and once averaged as much as 27 points per game.
I think he's more like a better version of Dominique Wilkins. He's Nique plus range and defensive discipline. Inside 20 feet both could get their shot off against anyone or get to the basket and finish with authority. Per 36 Nique averaged 25.2/6.8/2.5/1.3/0.6, while Durant has averaged 25.1/6.3/2.8/1.2/0.9. Durant is obviously better, largely because he's a much better pure shooter and a more effective defender. It's hard to compare them as distributors. Nique always shared the floor with Doc Rivers or Spud Webb, which kept his assists down and his turnover rate very low as well. Now that the Thunder don't have a ball-dominant backup pg or sg, the offense flows through Durant whenever he's on the court without Westbrook.
Chris Paul is also knocking on the door at .297, after putting up .292, .284, and .278 in past years. His greatness continues to be somewhat overlooked. If Chris Paul had been drafted into the weak Eastern Conference to play alongside Josh Smith, Joe Johnson, Josh Childress, and Al Harrington, how differently would his career have played out? Would he have been to the Finals a couple times by now and be recognized as a top-5 all-time point guard? Would the Hawks have stunted his growth by having Joe Johnson act as the primary ballhandler, thereby preventing that young core from developing into a contender and depriving everyone of superstar CP3?
Side note: somehow the Clippers already have played 56 games, while the Heat and Knicks have played just 50. Seems like an unusually large disparity at the ASB, when I'd think the schedule-makers would want every team to be in roughly the same position.
http://www.basketballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=944
He expanded that in this year's book and found a peak of about '85-'88 before expansion diluted the talent pool.
Note: I did not check stats so forgive me if I am proven horrribly wrong.
http://stats.nba.com/leaguePlayerGeneral.html
Thanks to everyone else on the replies on the weak era question.
I'm so impressed by Chris Paul. I will say, as great as he is, and he is great - I thought he had a level of explosiveness in his early years he lost after his injury. He's still so smart, so good, and quite athletic. He has the best handles of any player I've ever seen. But Chris Paul in 07-08 was absolutely insane. I remember watching him extensively in their playoff series with the Spurs and thinking that he was literally unstoppable. His stats right now are just as good, so I may be off base. I think that is because he's improved non-athletic parts of his game though.
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