Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Saturday, February 02, 2013

OT: NBA Monthly Thread - February 2013

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: abstinence and William Howard Taft.

The District Attorney Posted: February 02, 2013 at 10:56 AM | 1151 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 7 of 12 pages ‹ First  < 5 6 7 8 9 >  Last ›
   601. Fourth True Outcome Posted: February 15, 2013 at 01:51 PM (#4370333)
They look at Duncan, KG, Kobe, Kidd, Nash, Shaq and Dirk with their MVPs and/or rings and think of what an accomplished group it is. Meanwhile, Howard, Paul, Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Irving, Davis, Griffin, Love, Williams, Melo, Wall, and others (especially Rubio) could still get to that level of accomplishment.


What do people think Rubio's ceiling is these days? I have barely watched him this season, other than the occasional staggering pass highlight, but his shooting numbers look terrible, which IIRC was the big concern about him coming over. What are the chances he ends up a stud, and how do they compare to the chances he never really puts it together?
   602. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: February 15, 2013 at 01:52 PM (#4370334)
If Chris Paul had been drafted into the weak Eastern Conference to play alongside Josh Smith, Joe Johnson, Josh Childress, and Al Harrington

< cries >
   603. andrewberg Posted: February 15, 2013 at 02:46 PM (#4370352)
What do people think Rubio's ceiling is these days? I have barely watched him this season, other than the occasional staggering pass highlight, but his shooting numbers look terrible, which IIRC was the big concern about him coming over. What are the chances he ends up a stud, and how do they compare to the chances he never really puts it together?


I posted about him on the last page. His shooting numbers this year are dragged down by the first games he played when he was far from his normal self. Since the minutes restriction was lifted, he's about 42-43% from the field, which I think is an acceptable level for him. He's also averaging almost 9 assists and under 3 turnovers. I do not think he is all the way back yet because his defense remains below his standard, but his midrange shot is improved and he appears to be finishing much better at the rim over the last couple of weeks (he has developed that quick release layup to get under shotblockers that Parker uses and has gone to the reverse more often). I doubt he will ever be a huge superstar, but if he keeps playing how he has over the last 10 games and increases his minutes next year, we're looking at 15-10 with good defense. That's a borderline All-Star in most eras, even if he's stuck behind Westbrook, Paul, Parker (and maybe Lillard, Curry, Lawson) in a stacked conference.
   604. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: February 15, 2013 at 03:47 PM (#4370383)
Heh. Simmons wrote a Ewing Theory column on Rondo.
   605. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: February 15, 2013 at 06:50 PM (#4370481)
IIRC a lot of people here vouch for The Basketball Jones podcast, but the few times I've listened to it they always say a few too many monumentally...puzzling...things. One of the guys is making a J.R. Smith All-Star/6th Man case in today's podcast...
   606. Famous Original Joe C Posted: February 15, 2013 at 07:27 PM (#4370491)
It seems like he's taken up the Harden strategy of only shooting 3s and at the rim, at least in this recent run. He would do well to keep going.


Also known as the "NBA Jam" strategy.
   607. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: February 15, 2013 at 07:35 PM (#4370497)
Lengthy (but pretty compelling) Jordan piece:
JORDAN PLAYS his new favorite trivia game, asking which current players could be nearly as successful in his era. "Our era," he says over and over again, calling modern players soft, coddled and ill-prepared for the highest level of the game. This is personal to him, since he'll be compared to this generation, and since he has to build a franchise with this generation's players.

"I'll give you a hint," he says. "I can only come up with four."

He lists them: LeBron, Kobe, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki...
When someone on TV compares LeBron to Oscar Robertson, Jordan fumes. He rolls his eyes, stretches his neck, frustrated. "It's absolutely … " he says, catching himself. "The point is, no one is critiquing the personnel that he's playing against. Their knowledge of how to play the game … that's not a fair comparison. That's not right … Could LeBron be successful in our era? Yes. Would he be as successful? No."

"I study him," he says.

When LeBron goes right, he usually drives; when he goes left, he usually shoots a jumper. It has to do with his mechanics and how he loads the ball for release. "So if I have to guard him," Jordan says, "I'm gonna push him left so nine times out of 10, he's gonna shoot a jump shot. If he goes right, he's going to the hole and I can't stop him. So I ain't letting him go right."

For the rest of the game, when LeBron gets the ball and starts his move, Jordan will call out some variation of "drive" or "shoot." It's not just LeBron. He sees fouls the officials miss, and the replays prove him right. When someone shoots, he knows immediately whether it's going in. He calls out what guys are going to do before they do it, more plugged into the flow of the game than some of the players on the court. He's answering texts, buried in his phone, when the play-by-play guy announces a LeBron jump shot. Without looking up, Jordan says, "Left?"

   608. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: February 15, 2013 at 08:20 PM (#4370513)
I briefly watched the celebrity game, but turned the channel after seeing Arne Duncan standing open in the right corner, unsuccessfully calling for the ball.
   609. smileyy Posted: February 15, 2013 at 08:30 PM (#4370516)
It seems like he's taken up the Harden strategy of only shooting 3s and at the rim, at least in this recent run. He would do well to keep going.

Also known as the "NBA Jam" strategy.


Also known as "College Basketball", except with made shots.
   610. smileyy Posted: February 15, 2013 at 08:34 PM (#4370518)
Am I alone in thinking that LeBron -- transported as is -- would have even bigger mismatches than he does now, due to his combination of size, speed and quickness?

I would love to see LeBron play against Pippen and Jordan. And I'd love to see what he'd do in the fast-paced earlier eras.
   611. Squash Posted: February 15, 2013 at 08:37 PM (#4370521)
Jordan's awesome, but he's wishcasting there. Players are significantly tougher now due to the emphasis on defense and the expansion of the talent pool. Look at the highlights from Jordan's early career and all the white stiffs with moustaches he's dunking over. Those guys are all gone now, or playing 6 minutes a game in garbage time. LeBron in a faster-paced, all offense/little defense fastbreak 80s setting? He would have killed people. Or in the 90s, when there were only a handful of true offensive stars and the game started to favor big guys who were bulked up? Likewise. LeBron would be a superstar in any era, as would Jordan, as would Kobe, as would all the major major talents.
   612. The District Attorney Posted: February 15, 2013 at 09:10 PM (#4370532)
So, Jordan is a terrible talent evaluator. As we knew.
   613. madvillain Posted: February 15, 2013 at 09:22 PM (#4370537)
@611 -- that's true, but the flip side is that the paint was often packed with a a couple of those "white stiffs" whose job it was to stand near the basket and be tall. With the advent of the "stretch 4" and the "euro style" there is more spacing in the modern game then when Jordan played. Furthermore, those "white stiffs" were often told to take hard fouls and enforce the "no fly zone" with Jordan and others.

I think that it's basically a wash. Whatever advantages Lebron has with the modern spacing and lack of physicality are offset by the talent of the perimeter defenders he goes against on a nightly basis. Any advantage Jordan had by playing against a weaker talent pool is offset by the fact that that pool was more singularly dedicated (and had less rules to abide by wrt to physicality) to stopping him and his ilk.

Right now I think it's basically Jordan and Lebron for GOAT 1a and 1b. But to pass Jordan, Lebron is going to need another 5 years at around this level and a couple more championships. People forget that Jordan once averaged 33/8/8 on a .614 TS%. That's insane. It's also insane that Lebron this season has a chance to match that 88/89 season of Jordan with one of his own.

Never thought I'd see a player as good as Mike in our lifetime, Lebron is that good however.
   614. PJ Martinez Posted: February 15, 2013 at 09:30 PM (#4370541)
Heh. Simmons wrote a Ewing Theory column on Rondo.

Including a line-by-line breakdown of the original column, with the original in bold and his comments in roman. Self-indulgent? Sure, but I got a kick out of this:

Dave introduced me to the Ewing Theory three years ago, and we've been tinkering with it like Voltaire and Thoreau ever since.

I gotta be honest — I don't know who those two guys are.

"Voltaire and Thoreau"? I think Simmons isn't kidding when he says he doesn't know who they are.
   615. Manny Coon Posted: February 15, 2013 at 10:07 PM (#4370548)
["I'll give you a hint," he says. "I can only come up with four."

He lists them: LeBron, Kobe, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki...


No Adam Morrison or Kwame Brown?
   616. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: February 15, 2013 at 10:10 PM (#4370549)
This may be reductive, but I took mj's remarks as your standard back in my day schtick with an extra helping of legacy protection.
   617. Squash Posted: February 15, 2013 at 10:20 PM (#4370551)
@611 -- that's true, but the flip side is that the paint was often packed with a a couple of those "white stiffs" whose job it was to stand near the basket and be tall. With the advent of the "stretch 4" and the "euro style" there is more spacing in the modern game then when Jordan played. Furthermore, those "white stiffs" were often told to take hard fouls and enforce the "no fly zone" with Jordan and others.

As an aside, I'd much rather try to dunk on a 7'1" white stiff standing flat footed under the basket than some hyper athletic 6'9" guy coming at me from the side, but that's neither here nor there. I imagine we can all agree that Jordan and LeBron both would dunk on a lot of people whatever era they played in. I agree that to be counted as Jordan's equal LeBron needs another 5-6 years at this level and 2-3 more championships. I just think the notion that LeBron would be anything less than an absolute stud in the 80s is silly.
   618. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: February 15, 2013 at 10:20 PM (#4370552)
"Voltaire and Thoreau"? I think Simmons isn't kidding when he says he doesn't know who they are.

Wasn't he an English major at Holy Cross? He knows, he's pandering to his base.

===

Howard for Rondo?

===

Am I alone in thinking that LeBron -- transported as is -- would have even bigger mismatches than he does now, due to his combination of size, speed and quickness?

No. Me on the last page, for one.
   619. rr Posted: February 15, 2013 at 10:24 PM (#4370554)
This may be reductive, but I took mj's remarks as your standard back in my day schtick with an extra helping of legacy protection.


Sure--that was actually more or less the subtext angle of the piece. Jordan turning 50, and James playing at a level such that people are starting to have the conversation. Jordan knows that, and based on what we know of Jordan, he is probably pissed off that he can't get out there and play against James. So he watches James and "studies" him.

As to the conversation, I am never all that comfortable with cross-era comps, for a variety of reasons, one being that I think players, even great ones, are products of their time in more ways than we think about. If Jordan had been born in 1983, rather than 1963, IMO the Jordan we would be watching today would be more ripped than the Jordan of 1993 and would adjust his game to the game of 2013. Same for an imaginary James born in 1964 rather than 1984. James is obviously playing at a peak that is right there with Jordan, but I also want to see what James does from ages 28-33.
   620. Squash Posted: February 15, 2013 at 10:34 PM (#4370556)
If Jordan had been born in 1983, rather than 1963, IMO the Jordan we would be watching today would be more ripped than the Jordan of 1993 and would adjust his game to the game of 2013. Same for an imaginary James born in 1964 rather than 1984.

I agree, and I think that's an adjustment we all pretty much make in our heads (or at least I would hope). Jordan didn't spend his entire career as a skinny toothpick though, he bulked up pretty well in the 90s along with everybody else.
   621. Spivey Posted: February 15, 2013 at 10:40 PM (#4370558)
Looks like the guy that lost to Jordan was Kidd-Gilchrist. Honestly, that doesn't really shock me. Of course, I'm sure Jordan prepped for this game by studying him. And I think MKG was an awful #2 pick.
   622. rr Posted: February 15, 2013 at 10:49 PM (#4370559)
Jordan didn't spend his entire career as a skinny toothpick though, he bulked up pretty well in the 90s along with everybody else
.

Sure, but there have been advances in training etc, since then. Jordan had a personal trainer traveling with him late in his career, and he would be doing all kinds of extra stuff now, and an imaginary James playing in 1988 wouldn't have access to some of those advances. So, I think it is better, if people want to make these kinds of comps, to look at how the guy stacked up relative to the league he played in, the numbers he put up thereof, and other things, like versatility.

And, as I have said, I always like breaking the question down into scenarios, with each guy in his actual era:

If you could have either of them at age 20 to start a franchise, who would you take?
If you had a generic hypothetical 41-41 team, with an average player at each position, and you could replace one of those players with Jordan, 1989, or James, 2013, that is the only player move you can make barring injury, and if you don't get to at least the conference finals, you have to listen to me and Hombre debate Henry Abbott and Bill Simmons for two hours, who do you take?



   623. PJ Martinez Posted: February 15, 2013 at 10:54 PM (#4370561)
But Voltaire and Thoreau? How does it make any sense to pair those two? They spoke different languages in different centuries and are not really known for tinkering as far as I can recall. I mean, Thoreau fiddled with his sentences, I guess, but...

Understatement of Trade Deadline Season, Respectable News Sites Division: "There are at least two significant impediments to a Howard-Rondo deal."
   624. smileyy Posted: February 15, 2013 at 11:55 PM (#4370574)
rr -

Whew. Wow. Those are tough to decide.
   625. Squash Posted: February 16, 2013 at 01:54 AM (#4370596)
If you had a generic hypothetical 41-41 team, with an average player at each position, and you could replace one of those players with Jordan, 1989, or James, 2013, that is the only player move you can make barring injury, and if you don't get to at least the conference finals, you have to listen to me and Hombre debate Henry Abbott and Bill Simmons for two hours, who do you take?

Dammit, now you've thrown an emotional monkey wrench into the whole thing. I'm frozen and can't decide.

One thing that's interesting in the LeBron/Jordan thing is that, in the theoretical matchup between the two, the two wouldn't actually match up. LeBron guards Pippen on that team most likely, and vice versa. DWade would be the guy following Jordan around. Pippen would probably match up pretty favorably on LeBron, those kind of guys seem to give him the most trouble.
   626. Famous Original Joe C Posted: February 16, 2013 at 09:14 AM (#4370627)
If you had a generic hypothetical 41-41 team, with an average player at each position, and you could replace one of those players with Jordan, 1989, or James, 2013, that is the only player move you can make barring injury, and if you don't get to at least the conference finals, you have to listen to me and Hombre debate Henry Abbott and Bill Simmons for two hours, who do you take?


If it's Jordan, 1989, give me Lebron. He's more flexible on the defensive end, I can play different combinations of guys with him. Then again - Michael. Oh, man, real tough call. And god forbid my Lebron + average guys run into Jordan's team in the second round after I snubbed him :-)

By the way, as long as it was in person and not on the internet, I'd be highly entertained by the four of you debating. Two hours might be a bit much though.

Pippen would probably match up pretty favorably on LeBron, those kind of guys seem to give him the most trouble.


I know what you're getting at here, and you're right, I think, but my first reaction here was just to snark, "oh, really, that's who gives him trouble? All-time great defenders at his position?"

   627. Spivey Posted: February 16, 2013 at 09:25 AM (#4370628)
I know what you're getting at here, and you're right, I think, but my first reaction here was just to snark, "oh, really, that's who gives him trouble? All-time great defenders at his position?"


Me too. It'd be interesting to see of LeBron could take Pippen to the block. It'd be a fun matchup for sure. I could also see LeBron cross guarding Jordan, because Wade would be a little undersized there. It'd be awesome, for sure.
   628. PJ Martinez Posted: February 16, 2013 at 09:35 AM (#4370631)
Woj says the Celtics and Clippers are in regular contact about a trade of Garnett for Bledsoe and Jordan. Here's the key paragraph, I think:

The Clippers had expressed reluctance to several teams about parting with Bledsoe until they were certain that Chris Paul would re-sign this summer to a long-term deal, sources said. The organization has become increasingly confident that Paul will stay, but every franchise decision is made within the context of how it will impact Paul, and how he feels about it.

Woj also says there are "differing factions within the Celtics and Clippers on the prudence of the deal," which makes sense. It's been very fun to watch Garnett and Pierce turn back the clock over the last eight games, so at the moment I wouldn't feel terrible about Ainge not doing this. But if it really is Bledsoe *and* Jordan, he probably should. And then he should really deal Pierce, too, who has said he doesn't want to stick around for a rebuilding period.

I was feeling a lot less sentimental two weeks ago.
   629. The District Attorney Posted: February 16, 2013 at 09:49 AM (#4370635)
Woj says the Celtics and Clippers are in regular contact about a trade of Garnett for Bledsoe and Jordan.
Seriously?? Oshkosh b'gosh, do the Celts need to do that.

Although I wonder, which probably-not-gonna-happen deal would Celts fans rather do, Bledsoe/Jordan for KG, or Rondo for Howard... or, I suppose, both.
   630. PJ Martinez Posted: February 16, 2013 at 10:55 AM (#4370653)
Although I wonder, which probably-not-gonna-happen deal would Celts fans rather do, Bledsoe/Jordan for KG, or Rondo for Howard... or, I suppose, both.

Maybe this is obvious, but I think the KG/Bledsoe/Jordan one is actually a real thing being discussed, while Rondo/Howard strikes me as something maybe assistant GM's batted around or something.

If the Clippers actually went for that, I would expect Rondo to get dealt in the offseason, in addition to Pierce getting dealt sooner than that. The Celtics would look different in a hurry.

Edit: Oh, and as for the purely hypothetical which I'd rather, Rondo/Howard would be a fun way to go for it one more time with Pierce/Garnett, which I almost kind of prefer at this point -- except, and this may sound stupid, I really, really don't like Howard, and wouldn't particularly look forward to rooting for him. Also I doubt he'd stay in Boston, so. Long-term, the KG deal almost certainly makes more sense.

I assume the majority of Celtics fans would get more exciting about trading an injured star for a less injured and even bigger star than trading an all-time great for two young guys who are pretty good, at least given the little burst of possibly false hope the last 8 games have provided.
   631. RollingWave Posted: February 16, 2013 at 12:22 PM (#4370702)
Looks like the guy that lost to Jordan was Kidd-Gilchrist. Honestly, that doesn't really shock me. Of course, I'm sure Jordan prepped for this game by studying him. And I think MKG was an awful #2 pick.


Has there been a GOOD Bobcat pick in the Jordan era? it may be just me but it seem that if i just draw a name out of box fill with generally agreed upon top 10-20 guys I would have ended up with better results than Jordan's pick in the Bobcats no?

   632. The Buddy Biancalana Hit Counter Posted: February 16, 2013 at 01:29 PM (#4370720)
Looks like the guy that lost to Jordan was Kidd-Gilchrist. Honestly, that doesn't really shock me. Of course, I'm sure Jordan prepped for this game by studying him. And I think MKG was an awful #2 pick.

Really? Drummond clearly should have gone #2 and Lillard's been better than MKG so far, but he's also three years older and far from a sure thing to have a better career than MKG. If MKG was an awful #2 pick, then so would've been Beal and Barnes. Waiters and Thomas Robinson would've both been worse than awful.
   633. The District Attorney Posted: February 16, 2013 at 02:42 PM (#4370751)
   634. andrewberg Posted: February 16, 2013 at 03:15 PM (#4370766)
Given the recent rumors, how about Bargnani to Charlotte, Gordon to Brooklyn, and Humphries and/or Brooks to Toronto?
   635. Maxwn Posted: February 16, 2013 at 03:47 PM (#4370785)
This is a really good Grantland profile on Marc Gasol.

Grantland on Marc Gasol
   636. PJ Martinez Posted: February 16, 2013 at 04:27 PM (#4370800)
Has Deandre Jordan become overrated? He makes a lot of money, for one thing, and though he's young, at 24 he's probably already into his prime. His FG% is high but he barely shoots. His minutes have actually gone down this year in part because I gather he doesn't close out games much (which, I gather, is partly because his free throw shooting is an abomination).

Am I missing something? Or is it that people think he could significantly improve over the next few years?
   637. Manny Coon Posted: February 16, 2013 at 05:29 PM (#4370816)
Has Deandre Jordan become overrated? He makes a lot of money, for one thing, and though he's young, at 24 he's probably already into his prime. His FG% is high but he barely shoots. His minutes have actually gone down this year in part because I gather he doesn't close out games much (which, I gather, is partly because his free throw shooting is an abomination).

Am I missing something? Or is it that people think he could significantly improve over the next few years?


Jordan is fine as he is, he rebounds, blocks shots and scores at a very high percentage. He's a good supporting player, about a league average starting center getting paid about the going rate for that when you consider his age and durability. His poor FT% shooting is probably part of why he doesn't play at the end of games, but I also think he gets singled too often by VDN for mistakes everyone on the team makes and it's not like Odom or Turiaf can make FTs or don't mistakes either.

I've heard the VDN is willing to trade Bledsoe/Jordan for Garnett, but front office isn't. I don't think VDN fully appreciates what Jordan and Bledsoe do, which is part of why he doesn't play either as much as he probably should. There is no reason not to give Bledsoe some minutes at SG over Willie Green and for Jordan's minutes to be down this year despite the dreck on the bench behind him. I don't think VDN really appreciates rebounders, team defenders or good all around players all that much. The Clippers are doing well despite VDN largely because Paul and Griffin are so good, not because anything VDN is doing.
   638. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: February 16, 2013 at 05:44 PM (#4370817)
woj says hunter is out as head of the players' assoc
   639. PJ Martinez Posted: February 16, 2013 at 05:49 PM (#4370818)
@WojYahooNBA Says one official in NBPA meeting: "LeBron really stepped up, led the charge. His voice was heard. It was great, and it was important."

He is *really* doing it all this year.
   640. thok Posted: February 16, 2013 at 07:27 PM (#4370847)
Basketball Hall of Fame finalists of 2013

Five people from various committees (ABA, Early African American, Veteran, International, Contributor) already elected

I should make a longer comment, but the non-Payton NBA finalists just feel very borderline, and the men college coaches all have warts and there's the general mixing of all types of basketball.

Oh, and good call on putting Oscar Schmidt in from the International Committee.
   641. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: February 16, 2013 at 07:49 PM (#4370851)
i'm amazed that schmidt wasn't already in; flabbergasted

that hof just seems so .... ridiculous.
   642. GregD Posted: February 16, 2013 at 07:54 PM (#4370853)
I should make a longer comment, but the non-Payton NBA finalists just feel very borderline, and the men college coaches all have warts and there's the general mixing of all types of basketball.
I can't find my footing enough to say where the border is for the Basketball HOF. Bernard King was certainly a famous and feared player--the Jim Rice I'd guess of the bunch. Someone who might not deserve to get in but might anyway.

I would have guessed Maurice Cheeks was in already. But advanced stats don't love him. I don't know what that makes him. Steals and assists are important categories, not like batting average. Add that to being central to a genuinely great team? I'd vote him 2nd after Payton.

I wouldn't be in a rush to honor Hardaway or Richmond.

I assume Dawn Staley will be picked, no?

Coaches are hard; at some level Guy Lewis and Tarkanian and Pitino all obviously belong in the Hall of Fame.
   643. JJ1986 Posted: February 16, 2013 at 08:47 PM (#4370858)
It would be nice of the announcers to even bother to name the WNBA players in the Shooting Stars.
   644. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: February 16, 2013 at 09:11 PM (#4370860)
Radio call talked about all of them!
   645. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: February 16, 2013 at 09:44 PM (#4370866)
I thought Bonner was going to blow out the scoreboard early on.
   646. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: February 16, 2013 at 10:00 PM (#4370875)
I hate that I'm so much more educated about the abilities of the competitors in the 3 point contest than people who are actually paid to do this.
   647. JJ1986 Posted: February 16, 2013 at 10:07 PM (#4370878)
I did not know that Fallout Boy was still a thing.
   648. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: February 16, 2013 at 10:10 PM (#4370879)
Let's never have musical performances again, please.
   649. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: February 16, 2013 at 10:27 PM (#4370883)
I feel bad for those who bought tickets for this. I mean really paying to watch a 3pt contest and all that contrived bs
   650. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: February 16, 2013 at 10:31 PM (#4370886)
James White was robbed.
   651. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: February 16, 2013 at 10:44 PM (#4370892)
This is painful.
   652. thok Posted: February 16, 2013 at 10:59 PM (#4370894)
I wouldn't be in a rush to honor Hardaway or Richmond.


Hardaway strikes me a slightly better pick than Richmond, both because Hardaway had more post TMC success (being the point guard for some good Heat teams) and because he's responsible for popularizing the crossover dribble.
   653. starving to death with a full STEAGLES Posted: February 16, 2013 at 11:02 PM (#4370898)
Hardaway strikes me a slightly better pick than Richmond, both because Hardaway had more post TMC success (being the point guard for some good Heat teams) and because he's responsible for popularizing the crossover dribble.
don't forget the possibility that he'll be introduced by lil penny.
   654. JJ1986 Posted: February 16, 2013 at 11:03 PM (#4370900)
Making a dunk on your 5th+ attempt just isn't very impressive however good the dunk itself is. They should reduce it to 2 attempts at most.
   655. Kurt Posted: February 16, 2013 at 11:14 PM (#4370903)
don't forget the possibility that he'll be introduced by lil penny.

I'd be hoping for George Takei.
   656. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: February 16, 2013 at 11:15 PM (#4370904)
The NBA just set a record for size of trophy relative to importance of feat.
   657. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: February 16, 2013 at 11:23 PM (#4370907)
Evans dunking over a painting of himself dunking over a painting of himself might be the best NBA thing ever.
   658. The District Attorney Posted: February 17, 2013 at 12:02 AM (#4370914)
Five people from various committees (ABA, Early African American, Veteran, International, Contributor) already elected
The deputy commissioner? Seriously? Bullshit.

In theory, if asked to compare the baseball and basketball Halls of Fame, I much prefer the more expansive and freewheeling definitions of the Basketball Hall. But the advantage the baseball Hall does have is that it's much easier to figure out who to vote for when the only question* is "value as a player on an American major league team." And the problem of too much subjectivity seems to have swamped the Basketball HOF, unfortunately.

* Barring the recent PED stuff, natch.
   659. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: February 17, 2013 at 12:41 AM (#4370918)
something tells me that Hunter wont have a leg to stand on in court when it comes to his firing. I will enjoy seeing him lose legal battle after legal battle.

really hire your family of related firms and think it wont go noticed? you must be dumber the 10 dogs...(or tommy lasorda)
   660. Booey Posted: February 17, 2013 at 12:32 PM (#4371014)
Millsap for Eric Bledsoe being discussed?

I'm way too sentimental when it comes to my favorite players (Millsap is the longest tenured Jazzman and the last remnant of the 2007-2010 playoff teams), but I think I'd do this. Mainly cuz we desperately need a PG and we have two bigs coming off the bench that deserve more PT and could match Paul's production.
   661. PJ Martinez Posted: February 17, 2013 at 12:53 PM (#4371024)
Millsap for Bledsoe strikes me as a no-brainer for the Jazz. I wouldn't be crazy about it if I was a Clippers fan, though.
   662. Booey Posted: February 17, 2013 at 01:34 PM (#4371038)
I wouldn't be crazy about it if I was a Clippers fan, though.


I think it would be a good deal for them in the short term. If they're going all out to win a championship now (and possibly convince CP3 to stay in the meantime), it makes sense. With Paul (and Billups, if he ever plays), Bledsoe isn't really crucial to their success.
   663. thok Posted: February 17, 2013 at 01:42 PM (#4371040)
Why do all of these Bledsoe trades involve the Clippers getting a power forward back?
   664. PJ Martinez Posted: February 17, 2013 at 02:00 PM (#4371045)
Well, Garnett has played as much or more at center this season than power forward, and as a director of the defense and a jump shooter on offense he would fit easily next to Griffin.

But I take your point when it comes to Millsap.
   665. andrewberg Posted: February 17, 2013 at 02:46 PM (#4371064)
The only times when putting Millsap next to Griffin could create a problem for the Clippers are when the opposing center is too good offensively for Blake to handle. How often will that happen? (honest question, I haven't seen him anchor the defense enough to judge)
   666. Manny Coon Posted: February 17, 2013 at 04:04 PM (#4371090)
The only times when putting Millsap next to Griffin could create a problem for the Clippers are when the opposing center is too good offensively for Blake to handle. How often will that happen? (honest question, I haven't seen him anchor the defense enough to judge)


The much bigger problem is interior help defense, Griffin is fine as a man to man defender and defends the pick and roll ok, but his arms are kind of short and he doesn't provide the presence in the paint that Garnett or DeAndre Jordan or even Lamar Odom or Turiaf do. Griffin blocks about half as many shots as Eric Bledsoe.
   667. Spivey Posted: February 17, 2013 at 04:11 PM (#4371094)
The only times when putting Millsap next to Griffin could create a problem for the Clippers are when the opposing center is too good offensively for Blake to handle. How often will that happen? (honest question, I haven't seen him anchor the defense enough to judge)


I don't know. A center's defense is much more being able to cover the entire team than playing Samuel Dalembert straight up. With Millsap and Griffin, you're not getting much of that.

I still don't hate the deal for them, since they have Crawford coming off the bench. But they really should have another guard if they make this trade. Bledsoe is a great trade chip - a guy on his rookie contract that's probably a better than average starter, is young, versatile, athletic, and has room for improvement as a result.
   668. The Buddy Biancalana Hit Counter Posted: February 17, 2013 at 04:14 PM (#4371095)
The much bigger problem is interior help defense, Griffin is fine as a man to man defender and defends the pick and roll ok, but his arms are kind of short and he doesn't provide the presence in the paint that Garnett or DeAndre Jordan or even Lamar Odom or Turiaf do. Griffin blocks about half as many shots as Eric Bledsoe.

I don't stay up to watch a ton of west coast games anymore but, to my occasional eye, Griffin has made a recognizable effort to become an acceptable defender. Given the year he missed plus Kelvin Sampson coaching him from fear, directing Griffin that staying out of foul trouble was a greater priority than playing good defense, he's on the right track. Not entirely dissimilar to Durant (though Durant has superior physical attributes for a defender than Griffin), who got similar coaching from Rick Barnes during his year at Texas but has turned himself into a good defensive player.
   669. Tripon Posted: February 17, 2013 at 04:14 PM (#4371096)
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I miss Andrew Bynum. Dwight Howard is just a whiney #######, at least with Bynum he fit the team better, and knew he wasn't going to win against full on raging ####### Kobe and would acquiescence enough to not cause issues. Even if Bynum was also an immature punk.
   670. rr Posted: February 17, 2013 at 04:16 PM (#4371098)
I assume that the Clippers would use Millsap some at the 3 if they made that deal. Millsap is good, but I wouldn't do that if I were LAC. I would do it ASAP if I were Utah.

I would trigger on the Garnett thing if I were the Clippers, although the asking price is high. But supposedly Garnett does not want to leave Boston.
   671. Booey Posted: February 17, 2013 at 06:14 PM (#4371129)
Millsap might not be as valuable to many teams as Bledsoe, but he could very well be more valuable to the Clippers. They don't really need Bledsoe.

Obviously they'd be better off getting KG, but it doesn't sound like he's going anywhere.
   672. Spivey Posted: February 17, 2013 at 07:40 PM (#4371147)
Millsap might not be as valuable to many teams as Bledsoe, but he could very well be more valuable to the Clippers. They don't really need Bledsoe.


It seems like part of this is people talking about Billups. But he played very few minutes last year and basically none this year. So you're in a situation where you'd have no backup PG, and you're losing some other important guard minutes too. Bledsoe has played about 50% of the team's minutes, and with Jordan and Griffin in front of Millsap, I don't see Millsap's minutes being much different.
   673. Booey Posted: February 17, 2013 at 08:02 PM (#4371149)
with Jordan and Griffin in front of Millsap, I don't see Millsap's minutes being much different.

Would Jordan definitely be ahead of Millsap in the rotation?
   674. Spivey Posted: February 17, 2013 at 09:09 PM (#4371161)
Would Jordan definitely be ahead of Millsap in the rotation?


Without a doubt, just from a protecting the rim perspective (though there'd likely be some Millsap/Griffin front court minutes). What you could also argue is that he would take some of Odom's and Caron Butler's minutes. Which are pretty available minutes, as it goes. I just see the minutes only slightly increasing, and the level of play staying the same. And the contract is much worse. This is to say nothing bad about Millsap. He's a good player, one of my favorite players, and he doesn't have a bad contract. I'd just want some sort of guard to get back in this deal - Bledsoe is a pretty valuable chip. Again, just my opinion but I don't buy the idea that Bledsoe isn't really valuable for the Clippers.

Would this even be a doable deal, or would someone else have to be in it? I don't know who has trade exceptions, but the salaries don't seem to match.
   675. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: February 17, 2013 at 09:10 PM (#4371162)
Are we sure Chris Bosh isn't letting his brother Joel get some run tonight?
Fun game so far. Sager went shopping at the Marvel Comics Superstore before the game.
   676. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: February 17, 2013 at 09:23 PM (#4371163)
As much as I love Millsap, I would do this deal from the Jazz' perspective. However, doesn't a deal centered around Jefferson for Bledsoe make much more sense for the Clippers? We've already talked about VDN not trusting Jordan late in games, so I'm sure he wouldn't mind having Jefferson at C, and I don't think Jordan would even have to lose many minutes since Jefferson could take almost all of Turiaf, Hollins, and Odom's minutes.
   677. Manny Coon Posted: February 17, 2013 at 09:53 PM (#4371174)
Millsap might not be as valuable to many teams as Bledsoe, but he could very well be more valuable to the Clippers. They don't really need Bledsoe.


They probably need Millsap even less, especially if he's being brought in as a backup, if they want someone to be a star backup player it might as well be Bledsoe and keep whatever other rotation player would need to be included to make the trade work as well. It's not like Bledsoe isn't playing, his production is very important to them this year, he's a big reason they are the best team in the league at forcing turnovers and their defense is much better this year, even if VDN is too dense not play him more (Bledsoe has a 25 PER at SG this year, that is a little better than Willie Green).

Millsap's contract is expiring as well and with Griffin's extension starting next year, if Millsap wants a raise it could cause some ugly cap/tax issues.

As much as I love Millsap, I would do this deal from the Jazz' perspective. However, doesn't a deal centered around Jefferson for Bledsoe make much more sense for the Clippers? We've already talked about VDN not trusting Jordan late in games, so I'm sure he wouldn't mind having Jefferson at C, and I don't think Jordan would even have to lose many minutes since Jefferson could take almost all of Turiaf, Hollins, and Odom's minutes.


I'm sure VDN would like it, but I think the Clippers front office values Bledsoe more than VDN. Jefferson is another guy who doesn't fit with Griffin, probably even more than Millsap. He's bigger, but still a weak defender and he's a much less efficient scorer than Griffin that needs to take a ton of shots and space close the basket, that would be better given to Griffin. Jefferson would also require multiple other players to be included to match salaries and he's also expiring which could be an issue.

Bledsoe is good for how little he is paid, even if he's only playing 20 minutes, he's still a great value this year and next,so it doesn't make sense to trade him unless it's for someone like Garnett who is an obvious upgrade to one of their starters. He'd be even more valuable with a better coach.
   678. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: February 17, 2013 at 09:53 PM (#4371175)
DK: nothing says All Star game to me more than Bosh getting clowned and shooting air balls.
   679. It's a shame about Athletic Supporter Posted: February 17, 2013 at 10:37 PM (#4371186)
This sideline interview with Dwight is like the most awkward thing ever.
   680. thok Posted: February 17, 2013 at 10:39 PM (#4371187)
It's hard to see the Clippers picking up somebody who's obviously useful for them for Bledsoe. Maybe Paul George (but I don't know why the Pacers would make that trade.) Maybe a random Dallas Maverick (but I'm not sure which one.)

Honestly, thinking about it, I see the logic behind a Garnett pickup (and Paul Pierce wouldn't be a bad fit for them either), but obviously that ship has mostly flown.
   681. JuanGone..except1game Posted: February 17, 2013 at 10:50 PM (#4371190)
Are we sure Chris Bosh isn't letting his brother Joel get some run tonight?


Seriously, I can remember a bunch of great performances in all Star games but not bad ones. Chris Bosh has been so bad that its going to be memorable.
   682. bigboy1234 Posted: February 17, 2013 at 11:05 PM (#4371196)
I can't be the only one who caught Reggie saying his darkhorse in the East is Memphis, right?
   683. JuanGone..except1game Posted: February 17, 2013 at 11:16 PM (#4371199)
I can't be the only one who caught Reggie saying his darkhorse in the East is Memphis, right?


Nope, caught that too. Worse thing about All Star games is his neverending blather.

Kobe's putting in work on the defensive end right now with Lebron.
   684. Ebessan Posted: February 17, 2013 at 11:28 PM (#4371204)
CP3's line: 20 points, 15 assists, no boards. That's such a perfectly cartoonish ASG statline.
   685. It's a shame about Athletic Supporter Posted: February 17, 2013 at 11:29 PM (#4371205)
Kobe's putting in work on the defensive end right now with Lebron.


I loved this.
   686. andrewberg Posted: February 17, 2013 at 11:29 PM (#4371206)
Who wins Bledsoe plus filler for granger?
   687. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: February 17, 2013 at 11:34 PM (#4371209)
Who wins Bledsoe plus filler for granger?

Oh, I like this suggestion for both teams.

Maybe Paul George

Ha. Puh-leaze.
   688. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: February 17, 2013 at 11:53 PM (#4371213)
I'm sure VDN would like it, but I think the Clippers front office values Bledsoe more than VDN. Jefferson is another guy who doesn't fit with Griffin, probably even more than Millsap. He's bigger, but still a weak defender and he's a much less efficient scorer than Griffin that needs to take a ton of shots and space close the basket, that would be better given to Griffin. Jefferson would also require multiple other players to be included to match salaries and he's also expiring which could be an issue.


I disagree that he's a worse fit for Griffin/Clippers than Millsap. Jefferson has actually developed a good mid-range/long 2 jump shot (42%, which is above average, on 5.6FGA compared to 33% on 2.8FGA for Millsap). He shoots more often from 3-9 feet than Millsap (3.5FGAA to 1.9FGA) but a bit less at the basket. Deandre Jordan, FWIW, shoots about 75% of his shots from within 3 feet of the basket. If Griffin can thrive with him, he should be even better off with Jefferson. Furthermore, Jefferson, if he is allowed to go one on one in the post, is a beast. On a team with Griffin and Paul, teams won't be able to double Jefferson often, otherwise Griffin and the Clippers' shooters will destroy them.

I also think that Griffin and Jefferson both playing in position will be stronger defensively than Millsap and Griffin, since Paul would either be at the 3 or Griffin would be at the 5. That's not saying much, but again, this all assumes the Clippers are interested in Millsap for Bledsoe.

But now that I say all this, your point about salary is right on. I thought he and Millsap were much closer together in salary, but Jefferson makes $15M and Millsap only $8.6M. Even throwing in Odom and the Clippers' trade exceptions with Bledsoe, the Clippers would still have to shed another $2.5M.
   689. andrewberg Posted: February 17, 2013 at 11:54 PM (#4371214)
This Version works.
   690. Maxwn Posted: February 18, 2013 at 12:11 AM (#4371216)
I can't be the only one who caught Reggie saying his darkhorse in the East is Memphis, right?

I probably think as much of Memphis's chances in the playoffs as anybody does, but I'll admit I'll be pretty surprised if they win the East.
   691. PJ Martinez Posted: February 18, 2013 at 01:12 AM (#4371220)
Is Al Jefferson still one of the worst defensive centers in the league?
   692. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: February 18, 2013 at 02:09 AM (#4371226)
How about a 3-team deal where the Clippers get Gortat and Dudley, the Jazz get Bledsoe, Butler, and Jermaine O'Neal, and the Suns get Al Jefferson and Alec Burks?

Gortat would split time with Jordan and finish games, while Dudley's a younger, cheaper, and better version of Butler. Utah's upgrade to Bledsoe at pg is much larger than the downgrade from Jefferson to extended minutes for Favors and Kanter plus O'Neal, and they'd also save money this year (even if the Clippers sent them Willie Green to stay under the tax). The Suns would blow up a bad team by adding talent and getting younger. If they can't re-sign Jefferson, they'd have cap room available for someone else. Also, since the Jazz have an extra 1st round pick from the Warriors, they could send it over to Phoenix to sweeten the deal in exchange for a couple of the Suns' three 2nd rounders.
   693. starving to death with a full STEAGLES Posted: February 18, 2013 at 04:38 AM (#4371234)
I probably think as much of Memphis's chances in the playoffs as anybody does, but I'll admit I'll be pretty surprised if they win the East.
hater.

if you were a true diehard fan like i am, you'd believe in your team regardless of those pesky little things like whether they actually play a given sport, or are in a given league, or have a certain set of genitalia. as far as i'm concerned, the sixers are overwhelming favorites to win the daytona 500, the stanley cup, the kentucky derby, the CBA, the KHL, the XFL, the WNBA and the hollywood upstairs medical college's intramural modern pentathalon (though, incidentally, i still think they'd be 3:1 underdogs against john cena at wrestlemania).



i mean, really, you gotta support the team.
   694. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: February 18, 2013 at 10:15 AM (#4371285)
Miller also credited Wright Thompson's Grantland Jordan piece to the Bleacher Report, which made me laugh when I heard it (as did the Memphis bit). TNT has since apologized.
   695. thok Posted: February 18, 2013 at 11:20 AM (#4371327)
RIP Jerry Buss. It's too bad his final team had to be so dysfunctional.
   696. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: February 18, 2013 at 11:33 AM (#4371336)
I think it's more that this team is so awful, it literally killed him. Sigh. RIP, Dr. Buss.
   697. JC in DC Posted: February 18, 2013 at 12:16 PM (#4371354)
I think it's more that this team is so awful, it literally killed him. Sigh. RIP, Dr. Buss.


How on earth has Dolan managed to stay alive, then?
   698. Tripon Posted: February 18, 2013 at 12:19 PM (#4371357)
Because Dolan feeds on Knicks fans pain.
   699. smileyy Posted: February 18, 2013 at 12:30 PM (#4371360)
I know Steve Nash never liked the Lakers. But to join the team just to kill the owner with disappointment...*ouch* that's cold.
   700. Manny Coon Posted: February 18, 2013 at 12:56 PM (#4371370)
Who wins Bledsoe plus filler for granger?

Oh, I like this suggestion for both teams.


Probably thhe Pacers because Granger's contract is kind of ugly and health track record isn't great and the Pacers seem to be doing fine without him.

The Clippers I'm sure would like to a get a guy like Granger for Bledsoe, but some many good but great wings have outrageous contracts these days (guys like Granger, Gay, Iguodala).


I disagree that he's a worse fit for Griffin/Clippers than Millsap. Jefferson has actually developed a good mid-range/long 2 jump shot (42%, which is above average, on 5.6FGA compared to 33% on 2.8FGA for Millsap). He shoots more often from 3-9 feet than Millsap (3.5FGAA to 1.9FGA) but a bit less at the basket. Deandre Jordan, FWIW, shoots about 75% of his shots from within 3 feet of the basket. If Griffin can thrive with him, he should be even better off with Jefferson. Furthermore, Jefferson, if he is allowed to go one on one in the post, is a beast. On a team with Griffin and Paul, teams won't be able to double Jefferson often, otherwise Griffin and the Clippers' shooters will destroy them.


I just don't see the Clippers as needing a high volume, low efficiency scorer. Griffin has a TS% of .574 with a higher usage than Jefferson, Jefferson is only at 52%, almost any play run for Jefferson would be better run for Griffin. Even Jamal Crawford can chuck shots more efficiently than Jefferson if they need a scorer when Griffin isn't playing. If Jefferson was as good an offensive rebounder as he is a defensive rebounder he'd more interesting, but as is, he's a worse offensive rebounder than Millsap and much worse than Jordan. He may be better for the Clipper than Millsap, but not when his contract is considered, but neither would probably help the Clipper too much, when you consider what they would need to give up. If Hayward came in the deal with Millsap, it would be a little more interesting though.
Page 7 of 12 pages ‹ First  < 5 6 7 8 9 >  Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Infinite Joost (Voxter)
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOT: Politics - December 2014: Baseball & Politics Collide in New Thriller
(5216 - 4:56am, Dec 22)
Last: You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR)

NewsblogRuben Amaro Jr. says it would be best if Phillies move on from Ryan Howard
(47 - 3:26am, Dec 22)
Last:     Hey Gurl

NewsblogA Salute to Sy Berger, From a Card-Carrying Fan - NYTimes.com
(5 - 3:26am, Dec 22)
Last: vortex of dissipation

NewsblogThe 2015 HOF Ballot Collecting Gizmo!
(179 - 3:25am, Dec 22)
Last: PreservedFish

NewsblogThe right — and wrong — way for Mets to get Tulowitzki | New York Post
(14 - 1:01am, Dec 22)
Last: PreservedFish

NewsblogOT: NFL/NHL thread
(9270 - 12:29am, Dec 22)
Last: Ray (RDP)

Hall of Merit2015 Hall of Merit Ballot
(96 - 11:51pm, Dec 21)
Last: Rob_Wood

NewsblogDetermining Hall vote is no easy task | New York Post
(29 - 11:40pm, Dec 21)
Last: SoSHially Unacceptable

NewsblogJUNICHI TAZAWA & CULTURE OF DENIAL
(4 - 11:37pm, Dec 21)
Last: Steve Parris, Je t'aime

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread - December 2014
(776 - 11:33pm, Dec 21)
Last: The District Attorney

NewsblogMarty Noble's HOF Ballot
(45 - 11:32pm, Dec 21)
Last: bobm

NewsblogThe Yankees’ plan in case A-Rod can’t play at all
(25 - 10:12pm, Dec 21)
Last: Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site

NewsblogOT: Soccer December 2014
(344 - 9:50pm, Dec 21)
Last: Mefisto

Hall of MeritHerman Long
(11 - 9:22pm, Dec 21)
Last: Joey Numbaz (Scruff)

NewsblogThe Jeff Jacobs HOF Ballot: Keep The Voting Serious And Fair
(55 - 9:14pm, Dec 21)
Last: Ron J

Page rendered in 0.7597 seconds
48 querie(s) executed