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Who would pair better with a superstar point like Chris Paul?
As to the better pair w/ Paul, I think you go Pippen. I've just been really unimpressed w/ Wade's value off the ball these playoffs.
EDIT II: I think there's a case for Wade if your best player is someone like Dwight Howard, who's not going to create his own shots at all, or even a large-bodied big man, like Shaq. I think even someone like Olajuwon, who had such nifty post moves, would be better complimented by Pippen.
Pippen's career high usage rate was 27.1%, during Jordan's full-year absence (it was 26.3% the following year). During the Bulls' six championship runs, his usage rates were 21.8, 24.6, 23.9, 24.4, 24.6, 24.4.
Wade's career low usage rate is 25.0%, in his rookie year. Since then, he's been over 30 every single year.
I think it's more that the Thunder can't hide him on anyone. He's going to have to guard a very high usage player that's extremely talented at getting fouled.
I don't think that's quite fair. Wade and James are both good to very good defenders, that rebound well for their positions, and generally have good court vision. LeBron already has usage in the low 30s. If Wade's usage went down, some would go to Bosh (not bad, but not necessarily better) but some would go to guys that have shown no ability to creat for themselves.
Well, he could guard Battier, but then who guards LeBron? Harden? Ibaka?
The Thunder have gotten really lucky (or had great strategy) with using Westbrook on Wade, but no one on the Thunder is a great match for LeBron. They've been going three guards, Durant and one big to close games out. The only choices for who can guard LeBron are Ibaka or Harden. Pick your poison.
I don't necessarily mean to imply Pippen is a better overall player than Wade (though that's an interesting discussion itself), just that he's a better complimentary player.
In the years they played together, Jordan and Pippen's usage rates combined to be in the high 50's. James and Wade's combine to the low 60's. Jordan's usages were a bit higher than James's and Wade's, of course.
I think the Bosh point might actually point to Pippen as being the choice. It's not like the Bulls had a third player as good as Bosh to get usage (I'd take him over Horace Grant and Tony Kukoc without too much thought); perhaps the Heat would be better off with a lower-usage player (and better overall rebounder, not just for his position), to get more out of Bosh.
It's certainly not an obvious call, especially considering James and Pippen are essentially the same player defensively.
Which is why it has to be Durant. He's the best defender that's physically most capable. Ibaka isn't a good on-ball defender, and he's not comfortable outside the lane. While Harden is strong, he's not near the size of Lebron and he'll get punished.
Durant's not the only one that's tired and played a short season. He's just going to have to adjust.
I think you have to give Pippen a lot more defensive credit than is traditionally done to get him to Wade's equal. Pippen might have the better overall career than Wade, but certainly not the same peak level.
Edit:
I agree with you, in case that wasn't clear.
I know. Just talking.
Sefolosha? I mean, they did close out the game with Sefolosha on the floor last night. Though he was doing a good job of flustering Wade.
Re fatigue: While everyone had a short season, this is the Thunder's first Finals, and the playoffs are grueling. I have no idea if this is actually a factor.
The same thing you do with everyone else that's on the floor when Durant, Westbrook and Harden are? Nothing.
Well, you're playing him or Fisher or Collison or Perkins. None of them do much on offense.
Again, depends on the other two - but I would for this Heat team for sure. Better D, better rebounder. They don't need a power forward who shoots jumpers as much as they need those things.
I've been pretty down on Bosh with the Heat overall -- though, its more down on the James+Wade+Bosh synergies. But Bosh was pretty big in the 4th quarter last night. To a previous question about Durant getting past James, I suspect some of it is funneling Durant into Bosh when possible. Bosh had a big block and a big strip/block on Durant as a help defender last night.
They did actually use Sefalosha--that lineup ran him out there as the third guard instead of Fisher. So yeah, you could do that.
Those linups would be:
C: Bosh
F: James
F: Battier
G: Wade
G: Chalmers
vs.
C: Perkins/Ibaka
F: Durant
F: Harden
G: Sefolosha
G: Westbrook
Like you mention, it does have the drawback of not actually generating more offense, which is typically why you go small. It also means you don't have any shotblocking, since Bosh pulls Ibaka out. I mean, it's not terrible, but I don't see that as a solution for guarding James for the 42+ minutes he's on the court.
---
More talk today about the Bulls and the luxury tax. The Bulls have worked out a couple top 10 picks, so considering they don't pick until last it's raised some eyebrows. The speculation has led to Luol Deng as the most likely to be traded. I think the Bulls could deal him and end up better in the long run, but if the motivation is the tax I think that positive outcome is unlikely.
Then in the 4th quarter, let's say Durant only has 1-2 PF, he can try to play D a little more aggressively while not having to worry on offense. The downside is that James smells blood and has an absolutely huge game, but it's hard to see how much more he can hurt the Thunder, he's getting to the rim pretty much at will anyway.
I'm not sure I'd take Grant over Bosh. I disagree especially with the bold part. It seems to me that, offensively, Lebron/Wade do need a big man who isn't in the lane, but is instead stretching the floor- not so much to make the long jumper, but to at least draw the shotblockers out of the paint. I also think Lebron and Wade are such good rebounders for their positions that they're not going to get killed by a slightly below average rebounder at the 4/5 spot.
That's a fair point. Grant had a pretty good jumper from 15 feet or so, though, didn't he? And again, you're actually getting some rim protection - Grant is the better defender and shot blocker of the two.
It's a big if, and mostly irrelevant, but I think OKC could very easily be up 3-0 right now if Durant didn't get in foul trouble the last 2 games.
Here is the rankings from 91 to 2000 in Defensive Win Shares. Pippen really was that good. He and Lebron, defensively, would be a remarkably scary 3/4 combination, in terms of ball-hawking and disrupting passing lanes. The Bulls won 55 games in their first season without Jordan. I'm sure this thread has had the Scottie over/under-rated argument a bunch of times, but I find the comparison to Wade quite interesting.
Of course, if Miami had not shot 1 for 26 from 3 to 23 feet last night, it could have been a blow out. A quarter of an inch the other way, and you would have missed completely, etc. etc.
Or a 2/3 combo. Both are/were quick enough to guard guards; look at how the Heat were able to close games defensively against the Bulls in the ECF last year.
Yeah, I mean, either of them could play well enough to start from positions 1-4. That combo would be interesting, seeing as how I see LeBron as a stronger Pippen with more scoring. Yet, their versatility probably wouldn't make them a bad overlap.
I have been impressed with the way Bosh has turned himself into basically a role player since joining the Heat. His stats have obviously suffered, but you only need to look at the Pacers series to see how much of an impact he makes on how Miami plays as a team.
I'm aware of that ranking. You have to have Pippen as *significantly better than that* to be Wade's equal at their respective peaks.
Yeah, that was really the game that OKC needed to win. Nothing was going down from the exterior for MIA and OKC was hitting a high percentage on tougher shots.
I don't think he's Wade's equal at Wade's peak. The interesting question is "Who makes a better second fiddle to the best player alive"? Wade's #1 skill is one that Lebron also possesses in the ability to create offense with the ball in his hands. Peak Wade could be the best player on a championship team. I don't think that was true of Pippen, but I wonder if peak Pippen just fit better with Lebron than near-peak Wade (who is still probably better than peak Pippen, but it gets closer).
Disagree. (Leaving work)
Pippen had 87 win shares from 91-98 seasons, Wade 85 from 05 to present. Pippen did play more - some due to better health, plus a touch to the lockout this year, so in WS/48, Wade comes out about 10% ahead. Wade also has the best two seasons between them. Point is, it's closer than you might think, inasmuch as you can trust an ubermetric for a sport like basketball.
I'd still take Wade if I'm making my first pick to start a team, but if I already have an elite scorer/ball dominator (e.g. Paul), I definitely want Pippen. As others have mentioned, Wade doesn't do a ton off the ball - he's a good rebounder for his position, I guess, but he doesn't give you much else (granting that he's an elite player when he does, of course). Pippen gives you a smorgasbord off the ball, in addition to 20 per game.
Depends on what you put around them - I'd amend that to say "it'd be easier to build a championship team starting with Wade than starting with Pippen".
If
the league didn't fix the Lakers/Blazers game 7the Blazers didn't choke against the Lakers, who would have been the best player on that championship team? Pip was past his prime, so that doesn't answer this question. That team might have been the other team besides the recent Pistons to win a title w/o a true superstar.*That call has taken on a life of its own around Chicago. Ask most Bulls fans, and you'd think the Bulls lost in the ECF and not the 2nd round. Or that the call was in the deciding game of the series.
That's pretty cherry picked. You picked Pippen's best 8 years (which was pretty much his whole productive career), while ignoring that Wade has only played 9 years. If you use best 5, best 3 or any number smaller than 8, Wade comes out ahead. If you look at any portion of Scottie's career outside of those years, Wade comes out ahead. And, the only reason why Scottie comes out ahead over your sample is that Wade got hurt.
Again, you have to have Pippen as significantly more valuable defensively than even that stat, which has him as being outrageously valuable, to have them as equals.
Edit:
Got to have been 'Sheed, doesn't it?
Double Edit: Win Shares says Steve Smith ... which was not what I remembered about that team.
PG- Jameer Nelson
Wing- Jared Dudley
Wing- Prime Pippen/Wade
Big- Brandon Bass
Big- Emeka Okafor
CJ Watson, Omri Casspi, Shelden Williams are your first three guys off the bench. If you had another average wing, say Wes Mathews, that team would probably finish pretty close to .500 if it was relatively healthy. So would it go deeper with Wade or with Pippen? I think I would say Wade- much easier shot creation in a typical offense, still solid defense. I think our perception of Wade is slightly skewed by recency because one of his worst stretches is fresh in our minds.
Probably a little underrated, at least by me. I had forgotten how good he was until I thought he was wildly out of place on that shootaround crew until I reviewed his career.
I do think this might be a more interesting comparison when Wade's career is done, especially if his future looks anything like these playoffs have for him (I tend to think it's an injury, but at his age and with his history who knows). I personally don't know how to define the offensive advantage for Wade and defensive advantage for Pippen into a total comparison; though I do *think* the defensive gap favors Pip by a bit - Pip was a lockdown defender at multiple positions and a great team defender and I think Wade gets too much defensive credit (especially individually) and his gambling hurts the Heat though he is still a plus team defender.
Of course - and this is not to criticize - I did chuckle a little when you accused him of cherry picking and then followed it up by trying to limit the sample comparison to fewer seasons. Wade's injuries do have to count though as he's not the most durable player.
Yeah, I was just doing that myself. Almost a hundred win shares ... 20 points, 4 boards and 4 assists a game at his peak ... played for the Hawks ... oh my God, Steve Smith is Joe Johnson.
edit:
I think that when you're talking about evaluating peak, you can't use 8 years for a guy who's been in the league for 9.
Or they could've just as easily lost in the Finals to the Pacers, who also could have been the other team with that distinction. Reggie was a big star and all, but he wasn't one of the top 5 players in the league or anything like almost every championship team seems to have.
Same here, and I went through the same thought process as tship before posing that question. Even though Smith is still on TV, he still completely is out of my radar now.
Underrated in Hollinger's opinion: Waiters, Quincy Miller, Terrence Jones
Overrated in Hollinger's opinion: Beal, Barnes, Lillaird, and Zeller
He's pretty much on board with Davis, MKG, Thomas Robinson, and Drummond in the top 5 in some fashion.
This is in addition to him totally bombing the NBA Combine makes Sullinger a very risky pick. And GMs hate risky picks. Today's the deadline for returning to school. Staying in school for another year could end up costing Sullinger millions.
I believe he's a good shot-blocker for his position, as well. But Pippen would have that all over him.
Still hasn't.
What size cape, Tyson?
Not I! I've harped on the fact that IND played Paul George at the 2 this year despite the fact that he's 6'10" and it's an extension of a fascination I've had since childhood with guys who seem the wrong size for their position. Because of this, Steve Smith the 6'8'' 2 guard was some I always obsessed over in my early NBA fandom. I would always trade for a Penny-Steve Smith backcourt on Live 95.
EDIT: Yeah, I was just doing that myself. Almost a hundred win shares ... 20 points, 4 boards and 4 assists a game at his peak ... played for the Hawks ... oh my God, Steve Smith is Joe Johnson.
Yeah.
I am a Syracuse fan but surprised to see Waiters #4 on the rater. Especially the comment about the "best small wing since Wade". I had made the Wade comp myself as a fan, but I wasn't sure I ever really meant it (Wade is obviously a ridiculous athlete) and you never know if you are overrating one of your own guys.
As has been discussed, at this point LeBron is pretty much playing like the greatest power forward of all time.
My sense was that was more of an issue of Steve Lavin's eligibility monster, no? (Also the fact that trying to win with all freshman is generally ineffective anywhere besides Lexington.)
LeBron 11-12 30.7/9.7/5.0
Barkley 92-93 26.6/13.6/4.3
Bird 86-87 27.0/10.0/7.2
Duncan 02-03 24.7/15.4/5.3
K.Malone 98-99 26.3/10.9/3.4
Just pointing out that it was actually reasonably close, not necessarily trying to prove Pippen > Wade.
LeBron 11-12 30.7/9.7/5.0
Barkley 92-93 26.6/13.6/4.3
Bird 86-87 27.0/10.0/7.2
Duncan 02-03 24.7/15.4/5.3
K.Malone 98-99 26.3/10.9/3.4
Bird went 26.7/9.9/6.7 over four consecutive seasons, making the Finals in each. /fanboy
Lebron is on his way (though not there yet) to being the greatest forward ever.
Ahem, channeling Bill Simmons, I think anytime you can lock down the assistant coach from a middling college program with no record of success, you have to do it.
I guess I'm mostly kidding; I obviously don't know anything about the guy.
No, but based on his tweet, George Karl really loved the move.
I think there's a little from column A, a little from column B. Pointer, Garrett, Harkless, and Harrison were the 4 main guys in that class, and they combined to miss 12 games (all Garrett). They also finished the year 6-14 from 12/31 onward, and that was after being ranked in the preseason. I would expect more than that.
The Heat playoff crowds look from here to be the worst I can recall in recent memory.
Some interesting tidbits:
1. Daly much preferred Robinson over Ewing.
2. When Stockton had an injury early on, Daly talked about replacing him, but Stockton fought against it. This brought up more Isiah talk. According to Jordan, the guy Daly wanted to replace him was Joe Dumars. But Daly knew Isiah would probably kill himself, so Daly just let it be.
3. Based on their matchups in practices, Barkley was outplaying Malone.
4. Larry Bird marveled at the things Jordan and Pippen did on defense. "If I played with Jordan, I could have had 15 steals a game."
5. The documentary and the book and everyone's stories seem to all agree on Jordan. All the stuff about playing cards until 5 a.m., shooting 36 holes of golf and then playing like a madman in the game were true.
6. Magic was obsessed with proving he was still the best player in the world. Jordan was obsessed with getting him to acknowledge it. As you might suspect, there was a lot of friendly trash-talking, a lot of dick-measuring. Stuff like Bird saying to Barkley, "Charles, you haven't won anything." A lot of talk about the greatest team ever. Jordan saying, "You haven't seen the greatest team ever. I'm going to win more rings than all of you."
Wait, how? Is it out yet? I thought it wasn't out until July?
So...you know someone or something?
So mysterious...
And he was right. But only because they picked Laettner over Robert Horry for token college guy.
Ibaka, on the other hand, can play a whole 22 minutes of defense. Which is all the floor time he can get.
Chuck: 11-12-17-16-17-13-12-14-9-11-11-9-9-7-2-0-0-0-0
Karl: 2- 7 -10-15-16-16-15-15-13-14-15-17-16-10-15-13-10-11-4
They should have been roughly even around the dream team time. Barkley had more of an immediate impact on the league, they were about equal for an early peak (87-92, ages 24-28). Then Malone has a second, late peak at the same time Barkley was winding his career down. Charles was older by 5 months. That's the value of staying in shape.
And neither could really have guarded the other - Barkley was too quick for Malone, Karl too big for Charles.
Barkley was undoubtedly a bigger star than Malone at the time. In large part, this was due to playing in a bigger market and being an incredible quote machine, the commercials, the controversies. But at the time there was a strong sense that Malone owed a great deal of his success to playing with Stockton. This became less of an issue after Barkley was matched with KJ.
Defense? Personally I never thought Barkley was any good at defense. He was incredibly athletic and a smart player and had great instincts. Impossibly quick for a guy his size/shape. Always in the right place at the right time. How else does a guy who's 6-4 (listed as 6-6) become a great rebounder? But I've read a lot of people say that Barkley was a very good defender. Meh, I don't know.
Defense was never really Chuck's cup o' tea anyway. Didn't he say something once along the lines of "They pay me to score and rebound. They'll have to pay me more if they want me to play defense."?
Or maybe my memory is off and that never happened.
Either way, I loved Charles. Probably my favorite non Jazz player of all time.
And it was a beatdown: Olajuwon 35-13-5 on 56% shooting, plus 4 blocks. Robinson 24-11-3 on only 45% shooting. Olajuwon's team won in 6 games and went on to the finals.
In 42 regular season matchups, Robinson's team won 32 times. Rebounds were even at 11. Olajuwon outscored David 22-20, but David shot much better (49% to 44%).
A lot more weight should be put on playoff numbers, because the regular season only exists to see which marginal team gets the right to lose in the first round. I'll bet more people watched (TV included) those 6 playoff games than the 42 regular season games. But I thought some context was needed.
I'd just call him 6-5. 6'4 3/4 is the supposed detailed measurement, and it rounds to 6-5. As for rebounding, his bulk explains most of it. He could easily establish position wherever he wanted. I don't know what his wingspan was but he seemed to have long arms, and also just by having broad shoulders his wingspan should be greater than that of a similar height skinny player.
His leaping ability surely helped some, but Charles could still rebound when he was old and lost much of his athleticism. He learned early on to just stick his big butt in the paint and get the space he wanted. One of his earliest teammates might have encouraged that - Moses Malone.
I remember hearing that a lot and thinking it was a stupid argument. Basketball is a team game; you're supposed to play to each others strengths. I think it's much more of a compliment than a criticism to say that they took full advantage of each others skills for mutual benefit better than almost any other pair of teammates in history.
Did Joe Montana/Steve Young and Jerry Rice ever get the same criticism? I didn't follow the NFL closely enough to notice.
Get your nose out the spreadsheets.
Sam Amick has a column explaining the mockery of the Bobcats hiring search. He thinks one of the main reasons for the hire was starting salary and that the organization isn't working as a team. Should be a fun draft night.
Nooooooo. No.
No.
He wasn't.
Report now is they might take Barnes, though I'd have to think they'd trade back to 4 or 5 for that.
Yes.
I think it's also that Olajuwon led a fairly pedestrian Rockets team to two titles, whereas Robinson never even made the Finals (hell, only made the WCF once) until he became second fiddle to Duncan.
Great as the Admiral was individually, the 90's Spurs were always one of the teams I hoped the Jazz would run into in the playoffs.
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