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Friday, June 01, 2012

OT: NBA Monthly Thread, June 2012

I estimate that only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what the site is really about: overwrought, acrimonious discussions about having where to put the site’s overwrought, acrimonious discussions.

Famous Original Joe C Posted: June 01, 2012 at 09:58 AM | 2704 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   601. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: June 06, 2012 at 12:59 PM (#4149834)

I could not disagree more. Bring back KG, period. The man is playing out of his mind, and I see no reason why he couldn't continue to do so for 2-4 years, barring injury.


But that's a huge caveat. I think it's quite likely KG gets banged up or injured next season, let alone sometime in the next 2-4 years. If you could freeze him in carbonite and thaw him for the playoffs, sure. And he's going to want to be paid like a star, so his salary won't decrease in line with his performance.

They're doing it despite Pierce not being 100%, despite Allen being limited with bone spurs, and despite not having at least one big man they planned to have and Avery Bradley. You don't think they could be this good next year if KG comes back, Ray comes back or is replaced by Bradley and a backup, and they get a big who's better than Stiemsma to push him into Ryan Hollins' minutes?


They had the good fortune that Rose and Noah were injured. They've benefited from the Bosh injury. Allen, Pierce and Garnett are far more likely to be hobbled next season than those three.

I see this season as a sort of 'stars aligning' postseason -- even if you can point to Bradley's injury or Pierce's sprained MCL, taken as a whole I think the outcome has been as favorable as one could expect. If Chicago is healthy, they don't make it this far. Heck, they almost didn't make it this far.
   602. Spivey Posted: June 06, 2012 at 01:13 PM (#4149857)
The Orlando/Miami trade I can't imagine would happen. I like the deal for Miami, but you risk alienating LeBron (he came here to play with those guys specifically), Riley (he was involved in setting up this circus), and the fan base (this is the smallest issue, since winning cures all). It makes a lot of sense for Orlando unless they have reason to think that Howard wants to stick around now that they fired one of the best coaches in basketball for him.
   603. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 06, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4149859)
Does the run this year change the legacy of KG at all? I believe he is as good as Duncan (maybe a bit less peak, but 6000 more minutes played and I think he looks like he has a bit more in the tank), but clearly the Ringzzz say Duncan is better.
   604. madvillain Posted: June 06, 2012 at 01:16 PM (#4149862)
Hard to believe a healthy Chicago wouldn't have beat either one of these teams. Yea, I'm still bitter.

Anyways, go Boston, it's the lesser of two evils.
   605. Yardape Posted: June 06, 2012 at 01:22 PM (#4149867)
Hard to believe a healthy Chicago wouldn't have beat either one of these teams. Yea, I'm still bitter.


You may be bitter, but I think you're right.
   606. Spivey Posted: June 06, 2012 at 01:23 PM (#4149870)
Does the run this year change the legacy of KG at all? I believe he is as good as Duncan (maybe a bit less peak, but 6000 more minutes played and I think he looks like he has a bit more in the tank), but clearly the Ringzzz say Duncan is better.

You know, it's funny that he's a lynchpin on this veteran, great 4th quarter team. I was thinking earlier today "Hmmm, I remember when people were saying Garnett would disappear and didn't want to take big shots in the 4th." (Edit: I realize there was some truth to that at the time) I think the next few years matter as far as how they're evaluated because Duncan's playing at a fringe all-star level and Garnett's playing like a top 5 big man. Which is to say, the run isn't over yet and I'm not sure it's change much for me (other than erased/made up for some of his rep as not being good in the playoffs). Another title for him or Duncan will change the legacy and comparisons.
   607. Spivey Posted: June 06, 2012 at 01:26 PM (#4149876)
It is hard to believe a completely healthy Chicago team (which basically never existed all season) wouldn't be able to beat a not healthy Miami team, that's true.
   608. Eddo Posted: June 06, 2012 at 01:32 PM (#4149883)
The Orlando/Miami trade I can't imagine would happen. I like the deal for Miami, but you risk alienating LeBron (he came here to play with those guys specifically), Riley (he was involved in setting up this circus), and the fan base (this is the smallest issue, since winning cures all). It makes a lot of sense for Orlando unless they have reason to think that Howard wants to stick around now that they fired one of the best coaches in basketball for him.

Oh, of course it wouldn't happen. A huge reason (the reason?) James is on the Heat right now is because Wade and Bosh are on the Heat, too.
   609. JJ1986 Posted: June 06, 2012 at 01:33 PM (#4149884)
I think a smaller trade make more sense. Wade and Haslem for Howard and Richardson if that works.
   610. smileyy Posted: June 06, 2012 at 01:33 PM (#4149886)
But, Pippen didn't dominate the ball, or need to.


Well, Pippen also played point guard most of the time, and didn't play an offense that turned him into nothing more than a spot-up shooter in the corner when Jordan wanted to iso. Of course, when Jordan wanted to iso, he did it from the high post, rather than outside the 3 point line.

Does anyone else still feel like LeBron plays the wrong game?

I certainly agree that Wade's style and skills are not a complement to LeBron's in the 4th quarter.
   611. JuanGone..except1game Posted: June 06, 2012 at 01:50 PM (#4149903)
I think the next few years matter as far as how they're evaluated because Duncan's playing at a fringe all-star level and Garnett's playing like a top 5 big man.


I started writing something similar about Duncan yesterday, but more as it relates to Kobe. The last 5 years of Duncan's career despite some great effeciency numbers may end without a lot of success. If he loses this year, that will be 5 years without being in the Finals on a team with an all-time great coach, one HOF and a non-terrible rest of his team. While his career success has been declining in stature, Kobe and Garnett are winding down with a lot of success while both playing more career minutes than Duncan and with "cherry's on top" of their careers. It may be unfortunate, but I do think that Duncan's legacy despite 4 rings will likely be eclipsed by both of them if Garnett pulls this off.
   612. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 06, 2012 at 01:50 PM (#4149906)
I wouldn't run iso for Wade unless I got LBJ's signoff. The offense runs through LBJ every possession and he decides. And if I'm LBJ, I let Wade run iso in the first 2-3 quarters, defer to him, see how it's going, and make 4th quarter decisions accordingly. That's how this team needs to be structured and coached.

   613. AROM Posted: June 06, 2012 at 01:55 PM (#4149915)
I think the next few years matter as far as how they're evaluated because Duncan's playing at a fringe all-star level and Garnett's playing like a top 5 big man.


Not much difference on the season. Duncan 28 minutes, 15 pts, 9 reb, 1.5 blocks, 49% shooting. Garnett 31 minutes, 16 pts, 8 reb, 1.0 blocks, 50% shooting. They were born a month apart in 1976.

Duncan's had a pretty good playoff run himself. Not to take anything away from Garnett, but if Duncan had the matchups Garnett has faced this playoff run, he'd be making them look silly.

Atlanta had to start the series with 3rd stringer Collins. That might have been the toughest matchup for him - Collins is at least a good post defender and if he were on Miami you wouldn't see all the silly lobs, but Collins is a zero offensive threat so he allowed Garnett to play help defense when needed. Philly has a 7 footer in Hawes, but one who is too slow and too lacking in verticality to do anything. Brand was toasty on defense, Lavoy Allen gave the best effort but he's only 6'9. Now Miami runs 6'9 Anthony and 6'8 Haslem out there, combined with poor defensive intensity on Miami's part, and you get an epidemic of lobs.

Again, I'm not denying Garnett has played great for this playoff run. But he's had more mismatch opportunities that a 6'11, 230 pound big man (or whatever his dimensions are) probably hasn't had in my lifetime. It's as if he went back to the 1960's and was lucky enough to avoid Russell and Chamberlain. OK, forget that thought. In the 60's to avoid Wilt and Russell, but still play 3 series he'd likely have to face somebody out of Walt Bellamy (6-11), Nate Thurmond (6-11), or Willis Reed (6-9 and strong). That's tougher competition than Garnett has faced, though I'm sure they are much better than what he would have seen in the 50's.
   614. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 06, 2012 at 02:01 PM (#4149925)
He did this against Indiana a week ago, when Miami's back was against the wall. He did it against Boston in the ECF last year. He did it against Orlando a few years back. He did it in the most memorable close of my adult life against Detroit 5 years back. Be clear about it - you expect him to dominate every playoff series en route to a title.
Robin/Hombre- I now fully understand how you feel when we psychoanalyze Kobe.

Ditto, man, ditto. You guys are probably laughing your asses off reading through this.


Maybe a little. I'm glad that others have picked up on my criticism of James' disappearance/the Heat ignoring him in the 4th. I wrote on the previous page that (again) he's the best player in the world, and he's been spectacular over and over again at the end of games. So why wasn't he in the game last night? His stat line looks great, and he WAS great for the first 40 minutes, but anyone who watched the game will tell you that he simply wasn't impactful for the last 8 minutes of the game. Wade and Spoelstra deserve plenty of blame for this, but you have to start with James for not trying to involved more.

I think the Heat would be a better team with a non-Wade wing that was less of an alpha. Less skill overlap would be good too, but I really think the two alphas thing is the biggest issue, especially because Spo doesn't seem capable of bring Wade in line, if he's even trying.

"As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time." James knows who's on the floor with him, he knows what he's working with. Roster construction and Bosh's injury being what they are, it makes it more important for James to be involved.
   615. AROM Posted: June 06, 2012 at 02:02 PM (#4149929)
That being said, I'd put both Garnett and Duncan still among the top 5 centers, maybe not on future expectation but what they did this season. Call them the 3-4 after Howard and Bynum. Number 5 is somebody among Chandler, Noah, a Gasol, or Hibbert.
   616. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 06, 2012 at 02:05 PM (#4149931)
Again, I'm not denying Garnett has played great for this playoff run. But he's had more mismatch opportunities that a 6'11, 230 pound big man (or whatever his dimensions are) probably hasn't had in my lifetime.
I was going to say this. Garnett's shown what a Hall of Famer looks like when he gets three weeks worth of easy match-ups and plenty of days off. The Celtics haven't owned the paint so completely since Bill Russell retired. What's more important is that he's shown up and pressed his advantage. He's been a monster presence in this series.
   617. AROM Posted: June 06, 2012 at 02:05 PM (#4149932)
Miami would be best off with a brain transplant. Let Wade be the alpha dog in Lebron's body, and let Lebron play the sidekick in Wade's still ridiculously talented, but sub-Lebron body.
   618. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: June 06, 2012 at 02:10 PM (#4149939)
It's weird to say this(*), but it just might be true. It's why Moses's Bosh/Wade for Howard/Anderson/Richardson/Reddick idea is so intriguing (to me, at least).

(*) EDIT: Weird to say that a team might be better off without a current top-five player.


Well, in my scenario they're getting another top 5 guy back. I think in a vacuum, the Heat prefer/would be better of with Howard, so the bigger issue/harder part to swallow is the other pieces of the trade. That, and the non-basketball reasons to not make the deal.
   619. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 06, 2012 at 02:15 PM (#4149949)
I think it's safe to say that, should the Heat not make it past the Celtics, their offseason should be as fascinating as the noise around it is annoying.
   620. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: June 06, 2012 at 02:16 PM (#4149951)
They had the good fortune that Rose and Noah were injured. They've benefited from the Bosh injury. Allen, Pierce and Garnett are far more likely to be hobbled next season than those three.

Well, Rose is probably missing all of next season and even if he's back at the end of the year/playoffs, he's not going to be 100% until the 2013 season. Otherwise, I agree with your larger point.

Does the run this year change the legacy of KG at all? I believe he is as good as Duncan (maybe a bit less peak, but 6000 more minutes played and I think he looks like he has a bit more in the tank), but clearly the Ringzzz say Duncan is better.

A part of me would love to see the 2 of them match up in the Finals to settle it.

"Hmmm, I remember when people were saying Garnett would disappear and didn't want to take big shots in the 4th."

You can remember 6 days ago?
   621. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: June 06, 2012 at 02:17 PM (#4149956)
I can't see the Magic giving up Anderson, Richardson and Reddick and Dwight while keeping Turkoglu. Otis Smith is gone, guys.
   622. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: June 06, 2012 at 02:36 PM (#4149977)
Yeah, and DeVos is still alive so he's not going to want to rebuild. Getting Wade/Bosh is a helluva lot better than anything anyone else can offer. In fact, I see no hold ups from the Orlando side at all. Nelson/Wade/Turkoglu/Bosh/whatever is still a good team, maybe even better than the Magic were this year.
   623. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 06, 2012 at 02:49 PM (#4149990)
A part of me would love to see the 2 of them match up in the Finals to settle it.


Especially because they have such different personalities and don't seem to like each other much (who really knows though). That would be very fun. Of course I don't think there is a bad potential finals match up.
   624. Booey Posted: June 06, 2012 at 02:49 PM (#4149992)
It is hard to believe a completely healthy Chicago team (which basically never existed all season) wouldn't be able to beat a not healthy Miami team, that's true.


Agreed. It seems unfair to grant Chicago a healthy Rose and Noah and not do the same with Miami and Bosh, which is likely a huge part of why they're facing elimination in the first place.

I don't think it's a given at all that the Bulls at full strength would have beaten the Heat at full strength.
   625. AROM Posted: June 06, 2012 at 02:52 PM (#4149993)
The Orlando/Miami trade I can't imagine would happen. I like the deal for Miami, but you risk alienating LeBron (he came here to play with those guys specifically), Riley (he was involved in setting up this circus), and the fan base (this is the smallest issue, since winning cures all).


Riley is presumably the man who would pull the trigger on the trade, so I wouldn't worry about him alienating himself. If Lebron doesn't like it then you've got 2 years to win your championship before he can do an early termination of the deal. If they lose to the Celtics as expected and a Howard deal is possible, it's probably a good idea to try something different. It will make it harder for me to root for them. I'm rooting for the Heat because of 1) Sixers are out (Lakers/Sixers my 2 favorite teams) 2) Wade 3) Anyone playing the Celtics is worth rooting for and 4) Lebron.
   626. AROM Posted: June 06, 2012 at 02:57 PM (#4149996)
But that's a huge caveat. I think it's quite likely KG gets banged up or injured next season, let alone sometime in the next 2-4 years. If you could freeze him in carbonite and thaw him for the playoffs, sure. And he's going to want to be paid like a star, so his salary won't decrease in line with his performance.


I really hope Danny Ainge thinks this way. Don't think it's got much of a chance, but I could root for Garnett if he were wearing the right uniform. Amnesty Brand, sign Garnett, and keep much of the team intact. Gives the Sixers an inside option, and pairing Garnett and Iguodala on D brings up the possibility of a basketball shutout.
   627. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: June 06, 2012 at 02:57 PM (#4149997)
Also, Anderson is a free agent, and the Magic can't trade him unless they resign him. Besides, the salaries work without him, so why would they give up their best young piece? Assuming they resign him, he's a great trade piece to help fill out the team around the Wade/Bosh core, or you could use him with Bosh for a super skilled smallish lineup. Still, this is the thing I can't get past. I think you're overrating Miami's leverage here, and underrating Orlando's. Dwight is the best player in any deal not involving LeBron.
   628. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 06, 2012 at 03:00 PM (#4150002)
Especially because they have such different personalities and don't seem to like each other much (who really knows though). That would be very fun. Of course I don't think there is a bad potential finals match up.
From the SI Vault:
5 His Buddy KG
Just kidding, as this might count in his favor. In fact, Duncan hates Kevin Garnett. Hates him the way liberals hate Sean Hannity. This information comes from very reliable sources, who talk about how KG has made a career of trying to punk Duncan, baiting him and slapping him and whispering really weird smack into his ear. They talk about how funny this is, because the worst thing you can do as an opponent is piss off Duncan. Then, as Malik Rose says, "he f------ destroys you." Duncan's lifetime numbers versus Garnett's teams, by the way: 19.4 points per game, 11.6 boards and a 44--17 record, including the postseason.

Duncan is diplomatic about the topic. Asked if perhaps all those years battling Garnett have softened his feelings for the man, led to a Magic-Larry type of kinship, Duncan leans back on the couch in his hotel room and grins. There is a pause. A longer pause. Finally he says, "Define kinship."
   629. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 06, 2012 at 03:32 PM (#4150038)
Duncan is diplomatic about the topic. Asked if perhaps all those years battling Garnett have softened his feelings for the man, led to a Magic-Larry type of kinship, Duncan leans back on the couch in his hotel room and grins. There is a pause. A longer pause. Finally he says, "Define kinship."

Primey.
   630. rr Posted: June 06, 2012 at 03:32 PM (#4150039)
The public's expectations are irrelevant. He doesn't have to be "the best player on the floor." He has to be whatever is required to be successful, in his opinion and that of his team.


Well, "successful" in the context of this team means "winning the championship." They still might, but last night they took a huge step backwards away from that goal. And they didn't win it last year, either. Also, note that I said "fairly or unfairly." You can think it's unfair if you want, but that is just an assertion.

andrew,

In a way, this all comes down to something that occurred to me that this can be summarized in a phrase that I made up AFAIK but sounds like a Simmonsism:

LeBron needs to be a little more like Kobe, and Kobe needs to be a little more like LeBron.

Note that I haven't said anything about James' mindset and I made a point of mentioning all the other factors involved here. But, even with all the bandwidth I have burned being Kobe's defense attorney, I have also always said "He shoots too much sometimes." In the context of what he has done for the franchise and what he brings to the table, the attention paid to his flaws is IMO disproportionate and often motivated by open (Dwyer, Ziller, Moore, Simmons) or conceal-it (Abbott) personal animus.

That is also, obviously, true of James, perhaps to an even greater degree than it is of Bryant. But that doesn't mean that no one should ever criticize anything James does, or that looing at his 4th quarter work in the context of the team makes one into Bill Plaschke. Miami lost a huge, huge game last night. James didn't play very well late in the game. We can talk about that, just like we can talk about Kobe going 2/10 in the 4th quarter of the OKC game.

   631. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 06, 2012 at 03:53 PM (#4150060)
LeBron needs to be a little more like Kobe, and Kobe needs to be a little more like LeBron.

Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant would Keyser Soze their immediate families before they'd stand by passively while their teammates pissed away big playoff games. I say this as a big fan of LeBron James who I like better than either.
   632. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: June 06, 2012 at 03:56 PM (#4150064)
Also, Anderson is a free agent, and the Magic can't trade him unless they resign him. Besides, the salaries work without him, so why would they give up their best young piece? Assuming they resign him, he's a great trade piece to help fill out the team around the Wade/Bosh core, or you could use him with Bosh for a super skilled smallish lineup. Still, this is the thing I can't get past. I think you're overrating Miami's leverage here, and underrating Orlando's. Dwight is the best player in any deal not involving LeBron.

What leverage does Orlando have? They can lose Howard for nothing after the season or trade him to the Nets for a total garbage package (they could also accept another deal from a team that hasn't been discussed, but I don't see one that approaches that in both value and name/ticket sales impact - I'm open to ideas, but I don't see the Lakers moving Gasol and Bynum for him/similar package). Yeah, in a world where Howard has a long term deal, I see the Magic with more leverage, but unless we're making just a Howard for Wade or Bosh deal the Magic have to throw more talent in the deal.

Anderson is not a UFA, he's a RFA but qualifies for the QO; the Heat would have to add another contract back to even out the salaries (Anthony or Battier perhaps, I was also trying to help lessen the tax burden for Orlando some). How is your deal better for Miami - why would they want anything to do with Turkoglu (look how lopsided the trade machine sees your deal, for instance)?
   633. AROM Posted: June 06, 2012 at 03:58 PM (#4150070)
They talk about how funny this is, because the worst thing you can do as an opponent is piss off Duncan. Then, as Malik Rose says, "he f------ destroys you." Duncan's lifetime numbers versus Garnett's teams, by the way: 19.4 points per game, 11.6 boards and a 44--17 record, including the postseason.


I think that bit was posted in the last thread, but a very funny use of statistical support. Duncan's a guy with career averages of 20.3/11.3 (about the same in playoffs) on a team that's won 67 percent of regular season games since he was drafted.

So either angering him doesn't matter, or Tim Duncan secretly hates everyone.
   634. jmurph Posted: June 06, 2012 at 04:03 PM (#4150077)
I think that bit was posted in the last thread, but a very funny use of statistical support. Duncan's a guy with career averages of 20.3/11.3 (about the same in playoffs) on a team that's won 67 percent of regular season games since he was drafted.


Good call. 19.4/11.6 didn't seem worthy of posting to back up that anecdote (I mean the SI writer, not the primate who posted it).
   635. Zipperholes Posted: June 06, 2012 at 04:03 PM (#4150078)
Well, "successful" in the context of this team means "winning the championship." They still might, but last night they took a huge step backwards away from that goal. And they didn't win it last year, either. Also, note that I said "fairly or unfairly." You can think it's unfair if you want, but that is just an assertion.


Right, they lost, but (I inferred) you were saying his performance should be evaluated on whether he's the best player on the floor. Not just that the public will do that.
   636. Booey Posted: June 06, 2012 at 04:08 PM (#4150084)
So either angering him doesn't matter, or Tim Duncan secretly hates everyone.


Tim Duncan doesn't get angry. Or happy. Or sad. The only emotion that's capable of breaking through his force field of indifference is eye bulging surprise.
   637. JC in DC Posted: June 06, 2012 at 04:10 PM (#4150087)

Well, "successful" in the context of this team means "winning the championship." They still might, but last night they took a huge step backwards away from that goal. And they didn't win it last year, either. Also, note that I said "fairly or unfairly." You can think it's unfair if you want, but that is just an assertion.

andrew,

In a way, this all comes down to something that occurred to me that this can be summarized in a phrase that I made up AFAIK but sounds like a Simmonsism:

LeBron needs to be a little more like Kobe, and Kobe needs to be a little more like LeBron.

Note that I haven't said anything about James' mindset and I made a point of mentioning all the other factors involved here. But, even with all the bandwidth I have burned being Kobe's defense attorney, I have also always said "He shoots too much sometimes." In the context of what he has done for the franchise and what he brings to the table, the attention paid to his flaws is IMO disproportionate and often motivated by open (Dwyer, Ziller, Moore, Simmons) or conceal-it (Abbott) personal animus.

That is also, obviously, true of James, perhaps to an even greater degree than it is of Bryant. But that doesn't mean that no one should ever criticize anything James does, or that looing at his 4th quarter work in the context of the team makes one into Bill Plaschke. Miami lost a huge, huge game last night. James didn't play very well late in the game. We can talk about that, just like we can talk about Kobe going 2/10 in the 4th quarter of the OKC game.


I agree. For whatever reason, I find it fascinating. And, watching him on a nearly daily basis, I have to admit I'm a convert. The guy is just an amazing collection of skills in the best basketball body I have ever seen. I have little doubt that he couldn't do whatever he wanted to do (say, lead the league in rebounding). He's incredible.
   638. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: June 06, 2012 at 04:26 PM (#4150101)
Of course I don't think there is a bad potential finals match up.

I think if OKC ends up playing Boston, the Thunder will run them right off the floor in no more than five games, maybe even a four game sweep.
   639. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: June 06, 2012 at 04:29 PM (#4150104)
Why is everyone talking about the Heat's 4th quarter offense last night as if it was their downfall? That was their most effective quarter offensively since maybe game 2. LeBron was hot in the first half and shouldered the load but cold in the second half, so Wade tried to take over in the 4th and did so pretty well. As rr said, the optics of LeBron being passive are bad for his legacy, but that's not why the Heat lost.

The Heat lost because, for the last 15 minutes, they couldn't get a stop to save their lives. The Celtics scored 40 points in the final 15 minutes of the game (including only 4 points due to intentional fouls late, which can sometimes distort the numbers). After Wade went to the bench late in the 3rd, the Heat were outscored 11-0 to end the quarter, with Stiemsma, Dooling, and Pietrus scoring 8 of those 11 points. Boston's offense consistently outhustled Miami's defense late in the game, leading to transition scores and open looks. I think team-wide lethargic defense, which certainly included LeBron but was not by any means limited to him, is much more to blame for the loss than any passivity on offense.


This is a good point. I brought up the transition defense earlier, and JVG harped on it during the game last night. The Heat got a little lucky, if you will, that Allen missed 3 3's down the stretch (then again, the C's did get the 2 from Pietrus and the dagger from Pierce, so maybe not).

Also, in all this discussion about LeBron's passivity, we're ignoring that Boston did a good job with ball denial. While there were some plays he appeared to have taken off, the C's also helped keep the ball away from him once he gave it up. We talked several games ago about the strategy of letting LeBron get his and making everyone else beat them; in that sense, last night's 4th quarter was a success for them.
   640. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: June 06, 2012 at 04:30 PM (#4150105)
I think if OKC ends up playing Boston, the Thunder will run them right off the floor in no more than five games, maybe even a four game sweep.

This is also true of the Spurs; the Spurs size will overwhelm Boston and they'd really miss Bradley against the Parker/Ginobli pick and rolls. But I also think both OKC/SA would make relatively quick work of the current Heat.
   641. Famous Original Joe C Posted: June 06, 2012 at 04:39 PM (#4150114)

This is also true of the Spurs; the Spurs size will overwhelm Boston and they'd really miss Bradley against the Parker/Ginobli pick and rolls. But I also think both OKC/SA would make relatively quick work of the current Heat.


Probably, but there isn't one of you who thought they'd win more than one game (if that) from the Heat, either. I certainly wouldn't pick them if they made the Finals, but I'm done picking against them.
   642. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 06, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4150121)
I'm done picking against them.

I'm with this. I think they're a clear underdog in either matchup, but they've demonstrated time and again that their greatest weapon is their defense's ability to take away another team's easy options and ugly up the game. The Spurs and Thunder are great offensive teams, but I think the Celtics, should they make the finals, are going to successfully make life hard for either squad.
   643. rr Posted: June 06, 2012 at 05:03 PM (#4150133)
, but there isn't one of you who thought they'd win more than one game (if that) from the Heat, either


Slow down, fireball.

Baudib specifically said it would go 6 if Bosh couldn't play.

I actually said I thought that Boston had a pretty good shot if Bosh didn't go, although I never picked a specific number of games and still thought Miami would win. But Miami just isn't that great without Bosh, as we have seen, and nothing surprised me about this series until the 15-1 run at the end of the 3rd last night. It is understandable that Boston fans would rather focus on Garnett's greatness as opposed to Bosh's absence/partial presence.



Right, they lost, but (I inferred) you were saying his performance should be evaluated on whether he's the best player on the floor. Not just that the public will do that.


Well, how he should be evaluated is a YMMV thing, obviously. But given the number of MVP trophies on his shelf, his comments at the pep rally, and his physical gifts, title or bust and kick ass in the 4th or bust is exactly how many, many people will evaluate him.

The point about the D and ball denial is a good one. Miami lost this game as a group, but IMO James was part of the problem late in the game and it is OK to say that, no matter how great he is.
   644. Famous Original Joe C Posted: June 06, 2012 at 05:08 PM (#4150135)
Slow down, fireball.

Baudib specifically said it would go 6 if Bosh couldn't play.


Fair enough. I remember a lot of posts intimating it would be a sweep - heck, I thought they'd only last five.

Also, Fireball?
   645. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 06, 2012 at 05:09 PM (#4150136)
Probably, but there isn't one of you who thought they'd win more than one game (if that) from the Heat, either.
That's not true. I, for one, said that I'd be surprised if the Celtics DIDN'T make it to the Finals after Bosh went down, Simmon's crazy fantasy coming true, etc.
   646. andrewberg Posted: June 06, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4150148)
Maybe I'm missing the point, but I'm asking a question about why the strategy changes in the 4th. Is that speculative or silly? I'm interested in it.


I don't want to jump too far back, but I was poking at the people who were making psychological judgments, not those talkign about the play calling in the fourth quarter.

ie-

this is clearly God's judgment of that whole "South Beach" crowd

And that raises questions about his heart.

At the one point it looked to me like he didn't want to take that shot

LBJ is the best player on the team but he doesn't want to run the show.

LBJ's not in that class, and doesn't want to be.

They need someone to control the flow of the game; neither LBJ nor Wade are willing or capable.

People here are generally intelligent and thoughtful. For some reason, when we talk about James, a lot of people jump on the cliche bandwagon and talk about what he "wants," what he's "willing" to do, or what is in his "heart." Making assertions that are unknown and unknowable to us is not constructive dialogue. That's why I went with those old Radiohead lyrics from the robot reciting self-help platitudes- we have entered the territory of robotically citing something that sounds like analysis, but is not and cannot be.
   647. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: June 06, 2012 at 05:22 PM (#4150150)
Right, they lost, but (I inferred) you were saying his performance should be evaluated on whether he's the best player on the floor.

Why shouldn't this be part of the analysis? He's the best player in the league.
   648. Famous Original Joe C Posted: June 06, 2012 at 05:23 PM (#4150151)
baudib Posted: May 27, 2012 at 11:50 PM (#4141517)

I would have picked the Spurs in 6 and Heat in 4 BTW.


Not to pick on baudib - I didn't see this coming either.



   649. Famous Original Joe C Posted: June 06, 2012 at 05:23 PM (#4150152)
That's not true. I, for one, said that I'd be surprised if the Celtics DIDN'T make it to the Finals after Bosh went down, Simmon's crazy fantasy coming true, etc.

You did, that's fair.
   650. rr Posted: June 06, 2012 at 05:32 PM (#4150162)
Also, Fireball?


It's an old expression that my grandfather in the south used to use when the kids got out of hand and overly fired up. I always thought it was funny in a dopey way.

This may piss some people off, but having read the comments, I think it's relevant. Dan LeBatard, who covers the Heat and deals with the players face-to-face, has said several times that James acts like Wade's "little brother." LeBatard noted that James always walks a little behind Wade (I have actually seen this--one example was when they were walking in the tunnel making fun of Nowitzki's cold during the Finals last year) and also says that when both of them are at the podium, James will often look to Wade before answering, or let Wade answer first. Wade is the older of the two, and seems to be far more sophisticated and manipulative, based on what little we can see. Given how the offense is running at times late, it is possible that that dynamic, if LeBatard is right, is bleeding over into the actual games.

This is obviously Simmons territory, and I don't feel all that comfortable here. But my view of Simmons' psychology stuff is that while he gives it FAR too much emphasis analytically, there is also at times a kernel of truth in it. Given how this team was formed, this may be one of those times.

As to the points about energy/stops, that would seem to suggest that fatigue may be an issue. Seems counterintuitive to a degree.
   651. andrewberg Posted: June 06, 2012 at 05:33 PM (#4150164)
This is a good point. I brought up the transition defense earlier, and JVG harped on it during the game last night. The Heat got a little lucky, if you will, that Allen missed 3 3's down the stretch (then again, the C's did get the 2 from Pietrus and the dagger from Pierce, so maybe not).


That stood out to me more than anything. There were plays were Boston got the ball up the court quickly, but not like a fast break, then made a pass or two, and there were still only two guys set on defense. Battier and Haslem, who have great reputations, were loafing back down the court. Wade got back slower than anyone.
   652. rr Posted: June 06, 2012 at 05:37 PM (#4150167)
Not to pick on baudib - I didn't see this coming either.


Fair enough, but I am pretty sure he also said at some point that Bosh being out meant it would go 6, rather than 5. Maybe that was someone else--but I know someone did specifically say that.
   653. Zipperholes Posted: June 06, 2012 at 05:37 PM (#4150168)
Why shouldn't this be part of the analysis? He's the best player in the league.
Because his play should stand on its own merits, not what against his reputation or against anyone's expectations. Did he play well? Why? Why not? What are his strengths on the court? What are his weaknesses? What role did he play in his team being successful or not? That's it.
   654. Joel W Posted: June 06, 2012 at 05:41 PM (#4150170)
Good call. 19.4/11.6 didn't seem worthy of posting to back up that anecdote (I mean the SI writer, not the primate who posted it).
Against Kevin Garnett, I think it's a hell of a line.

As to the Lebron needs a little more Kobe in him point of view, I really liked Joe Posnanski earlier today. I bristle at the Lebron shies away in the clutch stuff, and I have been rooting for him because I want him to get the monkey off his back (I'm a Celtics fan, but this series has been oddly conflicted for me because of that fact, I've honestly never experienced anything like it in my sports fandom), and yet, I keep thinking there might be something to it. http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2012/06/lebron-talk.html

I think to play at that level, to be at that level, an athlete has to go to a pretty dark place. It isn’t just athletes. I think it’s a place great writers go, great performers, great composers, great scientists, great doctors, great lawyers and so on. I’ve never been there myself, but I imagine it to be a place where nothing else matters, where no one else matters, where there is one overpowering goal and that goal drives every action, ever move, every inspiration. I think it’s a place Michael Jordan loved going -- a place he desperately misses going now that he spends his days tearing tags off the back of underwear and building the worst team in NBA history. I think Tiger Woods loves going to that place. Kobe Bryant. Joe Montana. Tom Brady. Mark Messier. I know Roger Clemens loved going there.

LeBron? Obviously, I’m making this all up as I go along but … no, I don’t think so. I think LeBron loves playing basketball for the fun of it. You know when LeBron looks happiest? When his team is up by 20 and he can pass the ball behind his back. I don’t mean that as a knock -- well, OK, maybe I do -- but did you see the joy he felt at the end of Game 1 of this series when the Heat were destroying the Celtics? This, I believe, was why he came to Miami to play with D-Wade and Chris Bosh in the sun -- to destroy teams and have some fun doing it.
   655. andrewberg Posted: June 06, 2012 at 06:01 PM (#4150175)
LeBron? Obviously, I’m making this all up as I go along but … no, I don’t think so. I think LeBron loves playing basketball for the fun of it. You know when LeBron looks happiest? When his team is up by 20 and he can pass the ball behind his back.


Well, yes. Winning is more fun than losing. That isn't revelatory.

I'd also say that there are plenty of successful athletes who ARE affable, decent people and enjoy playing the game. Arnold Palmer, Manny Pacquiao, Mariano Rivera, Magic Johnson, Brett Favre. Those aren't people who "enjoy" going to a "dark place" professionally, at least as far as we could ever know. I think it is likely that there are psychological factors in common in many highly successful athletes (and other professions, as he notes). I just think our ability to measure those factors, combined with the diminishingly small sample that we can analyze prevents us from reaching any meaningful conclusions. Besides, none of us are psychologists, so we might as well be judging them based on skull shape.

Edit: I realize that could be read to say that Brett Favre is a decent person. That's obviously not my intent.
   656. rr Posted: June 06, 2012 at 06:04 PM (#4150178)
And here it is:

baudib Posted: May 14, 2012 at 06:26 PM (#4131349) ... If Bosh doesn't play, it means Miami beats Boston in 6 instead of 4-5. 903.
   657. baudib Posted: June 06, 2012 at 06:11 PM (#4150180)
LeBron is a choker.
   658. rr Posted: June 06, 2012 at 06:13 PM (#4150181)
As to the Lebron needs a little more Kobe in him point of view


I am not at all sure that I believe that. But I think a lot of people do, and I am not sure I don't. Either way, I think Miami needs to run the O through James as much as possible when the money is on the table in the playoffs.
   659. Zipperholes Posted: June 06, 2012 at 06:42 PM (#4150191)
I just think our ability to measure those factors, combined with the diminishingly small sample that we can analyze prevents us from reaching any meaningful conclusions. Besides, none of us are psychologists, so we might as well be judging them based on skull shape.
We want to be able to explain what we see. We want it to make sense. Very few people have the knowledge required to analyze what actually wins basketball games at the NBA level. So we look to the things we think have some experience with, and that we think we are able to explain. Almost everyone has played competitive sports at some level, and is aware of the psychological aspects of competitive sports. We've all been there, even if at a very low level. We don't know when the Heat should be using an elbow pick-and-roll to high-low when Pierce is on Wade on the left wing. But we know what competitive drive means, we know what having guts means, we know what selfishness and leadership mean. Pointing to these things, and convincing ourselves that they are what really matter, helps us explain something that we're otherwise not able to. And the game now makes sense to us.

Of course, this itself is psychoanalysis.
   660. andrewberg Posted: June 06, 2012 at 06:48 PM (#4150195)
We don't know when the Heat should be using an elbow pick-and-roll to high-low when Pierce is on Wade on the left wing. But we know what competitive drive means, we know what having guts means, we know what selfishness and leadership mean


That is an interesting post, but I actually think the X's and O's of a basketball game are significantly less complicated than human psychology. I also tend to think that we are more expert in the former. In fact, I think we are so wildly deficient in knowledge about psychology that we often don't realize how wrong we are when we talk about it. ("We" being the people on this board- including myself, but even PHD psychologists will tell you that there is a lot more that they don't know than what they do know)
   661. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 06, 2012 at 07:02 PM (#4150203)
As to the Lebron needs a little more Kobe in him point of view

I am not at all sure that I believe that. But I think a lot of people do
Too many people had a little more Kobe in them was what got Kobe divorced in the first place. I kid because I love.

I don’t mean that as a knock -- well, OK, maybe I do -- but did you see the joy he felt at the end of Game 1 of this series when the Heat were destroying the Celtics? This, I believe, was why he came to Miami to play with D-Wade and Chris Bosh in the sun -- to destroy teams and have some fun doing it.
This is a criticism that's been around since last season, that these Heat are bullies, frontrunners, and teams that stand up to the Heat expose tragic weaknesses. Since Miami got to the Finals last year, I'm not sure how true that is.

I DO think, putting my subjective psych hat on, that it's a combination of all the things we've discussed. Wade has carried a team to a title, he is older, he was in Miami first, and James differs a little. Lebron had been spectacular the first 40 minutes (28 points, 12 boards when he hit that basket with 8:10 left), he was gassed, Boston was pounding him, and Wade wanted the ball. Spo either wasn't running things through him, or he was and they didn't execute. Boston was executing and hitting their shots. The rest of the Heat were terrible, and frustration was setting in.

Perhaps one or several of these factors might not have changed things, but the combination of everything may have. I refuse to believe he's a choker — he's been too clutch too often for anyone to seriously believe that — but James needs to be more than what he was.
   662. Zipperholes Posted: June 06, 2012 at 07:08 PM (#4150206)
That is an interesting post, but I actually think the X's and O's of a basketball game are significantly less complicated than human psychology. I also tend to think that we are more expert in the former. In fact, I think we are so wildly deficient in knowledge about psychology that we often don't realize how wrong we are when we talk about it. ("We" being the people on this board- including myself, but even PHD psychologists will tell you that there is a lot more that they don't know than what they do know)
Yeah, my post was about "us" meaning people who watch basketball. I know some people here are very knowledgeable about the Xs and Os of basketball, particularly vs. the average basketball fan.

And I agree with you about not really knowing much about psychology. But don't you think that we think we know a lot? I mean, it seems so easy.
   663. andrewberg Posted: June 06, 2012 at 07:22 PM (#4150224)
But don't you think that we think we know a lot? I mean, it seems so easy.


Heh. Yeah, exactly.
   664. rr Posted: June 06, 2012 at 07:25 PM (#4150225)
http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2012/06/04/lebron-james/?sct=nba_bf2_a8

Lowe does video breakdown of James from G4:



Nine years into James’ career, we’re still getting a handle on whether he is “clutch.” We’ve seen him play enough big games that we can probably draw some conclusions:

• He melted down in the 2011 NBA Finals, and badly. He did not want the ball very often and was mostly content to float around the perimeter. It was ugly and strange, and it was also distinct from LeBron’s more run-of-the-mill “clutch” failures — the same sort that Wade suffered on Sunday.

• He will go through bouts of clear and obvious tentativeness, possessions on which he passes too readily. But he is such a clever passer that those passes will often be productive in ways even seasoned viewers will miss on first watch, as some dishes were in Game 4. We saw this as well during Miami’s Game 2 loss against the Pacers. He is never going to be an unconscious “crunch-time” gunner on the level of Wade or Kobe Bryant. Sometimes his team will be better for that, and sometimes it will be worse for it.
   665. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 06, 2012 at 07:33 PM (#4150233)
But don't you think that we think we know a lot?

This. I think the human brain also likes to avoid attributing things to random chance when it can avoid it. If Pietrus misses those three pointers in the 4th, that swings the game, and we're all having a very different conversation. Same thing if the Heat shoot 35% from beyond the arc instead of 27%. In addition to psychoanalyzing beyond what is possible/reasonable, I think we also often read game events as the result of player skill/mindset/execution, rather than those things shot through with a healthy dose of good old-fashioned probability/random chance.

I don't know how such a thing can or should change our postgame analysis, but I do think we [not here but generally] are blinder to it than we realize.

Edit: I mean, Kendrick Perkins and Ibaka swung that OKC/Spurs game via their shooting. Perk and Ibaka!
   666. booond Posted: June 06, 2012 at 07:36 PM (#4150236)
Lebron needs to win for other people, not for Lebron. Kobe, MJ, Bird win for themselves, not others. It's a different set of wiring.
   667. andrewberg Posted: June 06, 2012 at 07:42 PM (#4150241)
Edit: I mean, Kendrick Perkins and Ibaka swung that OKC/Spurs game via their shooting. Perk and Ibaka!


It's because their mothers breastfed them, but only after they cried for a few minutes. Therefore, they simultaneously learned self-efficacy and deferred gratification, which gave them the confidence to know that that they could win the game and the perspective to feel comfortable in the possibility that life would go on without it.

Isn't that obvious to anyone who WATCHEZZ SPORTZZ???
   668. JC in DC Posted: June 06, 2012 at 07:47 PM (#4150246)
That's obviously not my intent.


How would you know? You're obviously a borderline personality.
   669. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: June 06, 2012 at 08:26 PM (#4150270)
What leverage does Orlando have?
Leverage is relative. The Heat can't offer Dwight a reasonable contract on the open market-- if they want him, it has to be via trade, and that means they are at the mercy of any demands the Magic care to make. I don't think it's unreasonable for the Magic to judge that Wade and Bosh with an underwhelming support cast and Turkoglu albatrossing their cap space cannot really contend*. If you were acting Heat GM and were given explicit assurances that no deal would be accepted unless a) Turkoglu left also and b) Reddick, Nelson, Anderson stayed, would you pull the trigger?

* FWIW, my take is that that team would be a solid playoff team, but not a true contender. About on par with the Pacers, but with less room for internal growth.
   670. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 06, 2012 at 08:32 PM (#4150281)
I think you have it somewhat backwards. The Heat have no reason they have to blow up the Big 3. Certainly no reason to jettison two of them for Dwight and Turkoglu. The Magic are under the gun with Dwight. They can't resign him before free agency, and the weakness of their team around him prevents him resigning then from being realistic. Is there a better offer out there than Wade and Bosh for those pieces? It depends, especially on how they value moving Hedo with Dwight and keeping Anderson. But in this scenario I don't really see what leverage Orlando has, beyond not doing the deal and getting screwed, unless there's a great deal for Dwight out there that we haven't heard about.
   671. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: June 06, 2012 at 08:50 PM (#4150307)
There are 28 other teams, all of whom would love to have Dwight in the middle. I'm not saying Dwight's impending free agency doesn't undermine the Magic's position: it obviously does, badly. In any two party situation, they're totally effed. But this is not that, and so they are only sort of effed. Off the top of my head, they can try to get an offer centered on Bynum and use that as leverage against the Heat; Daryl Morey will work feverishly trying to get a competitive package together; there has been internet speculation (which is all this is, after all. I don't know of any actual or even "actual" NBA sources saying a word to link the Heat and Magic.) about a Blake Griffin-centered package, too. There are all manner of possibilities, but I am not a GM and do not particularly want to go down speculative rabbit holes.

Look: my initial point was simply that I would be shocked if the Magic traded Dwight without including Hedo in the package. I think that given the sheer value of Dwight and the multilateral nature of NBA trade talks, they can swing that much.
   672. PJ Martinez Posted: June 06, 2012 at 08:54 PM (#4150310)
I also think the Knicks could make a killer offer for Howard if they're so inclined.

But just for the sake of argument: Who says no to Wade for Howard straight up? (Trade Machine says the salaries work.) That seems like a decent deal for both teams.
   673. Joel W Posted: June 06, 2012 at 09:36 PM (#4150364)
Does anybody know where to find team "close late" statistics, rather than individuals? I want to do a bit of research, and I thought it was available online but I can't seem to find it.
   674. smileyy Posted: June 06, 2012 at 09:43 PM (#4150369)
Who says no to Wade for Howard straight up? (Trade Machine says the salaries work.) That seems like a decent deal for both teams.


Well, the Heat are trading the face of their franchise, and the Magic are getting LeBron's aging retread/reject.

OTOH, flags fly forever.

Wouldn't the Magic want to blow it all up though, if they're losing Howard? Or would they prefer a few years of mediocrity?
   675. JC in DC Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:04 PM (#4150383)
That is a huge 3 by Durant.
   676. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:11 PM (#4150384)
Amazing shot by Durant, but wow, the Spurs are out of this world right now.
   677. JC in DC Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:12 PM (#4150385)
Amazing shot by Durant, but wow, the Spurs are out of this world right now.


Agree, but they have to be. OKC's playing pretty good. Spurs are lights-out, but OKC down only 15. Given how they score, I can see this turning around.
   678. Famous Original Joe C Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:25 PM (#4150388)
Man, Duncan should have taken that jumper.
   679. Famous Original Joe C Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:29 PM (#4150392)
Here come the Thunder...
   680. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:39 PM (#4150396)
Jackson better have said something nasty for the refs to give a tech there. A little taunting is fun IMO...

EDIT: Jackson is 6-6 all from downtown? Wow. He shot under 30% from 3 in the regular season and is at 62% in the playoffs shooting 3 a game.
   681. tshipman Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:41 PM (#4150398)
I think the Heat are still going to win the series. The Celtics are terrible at closing teams out, and I like the Heat's chances for game 7 in Miami.

I'm not saying I'm 100% on the idea, but I think they have better odds than some people in this thread are giving them. I like their odds much better than the Spurs, for instance.
   682. JC in DC Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:43 PM (#4150401)
Wow, some really tough calls against SA. I wish the refs would just STFU. The game is not about Joey Crawford.
   683. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:44 PM (#4150403)
JC called it. Huge comeback.
   684. Famous Original Joe C Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:48 PM (#4150404)
Durant is an assassin.
   685. JJ1986 Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:49 PM (#4150407)
Why does Crawford get to ref so many playoff games? There must be 15 different crews and he can't do well in any kind of ranking. Is it just seniority?
   686. Famous Original Joe C Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:53 PM (#4150412)
The Celtics are terrible at closing teams out

They are terrible on the road, but excellent at home.

Since 2008: 9-2 at home, 2-11 on the road in closeout games, 5-1 and 1-6 since 2010.
   687. JC in DC Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:55 PM (#4150415)
That quarter was a blast. SA hanging on for dear life.
   688. Srul Itza Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:55 PM (#4150416)
San Antonio played a great first half.

Too bad for them the games have two halves.

   689. Srul Itza Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:58 PM (#4150419)
Hmmmm -- JC in DC, Famous Original Joe C , "The game is not about Joey Crawford.

I'm sensing a conspiracy.
   690. JC in DC Posted: June 06, 2012 at 10:59 PM (#4150420)
Jesus Christ.

You know where this is going, Srul.
   691. Greg Maddux School of Reflexive Profanity Posted: June 06, 2012 at 11:00 PM (#4150421)
Every time I see Harden crumple to the floor on a jumper or throw his head back and buy a ridiculous foul, I wish Artest had connected more solidly with that elbow.
   692. Spivey Posted: June 06, 2012 at 11:07 PM (#4150423)
That flop by Derek Fisher and then what appeared to be a phantom foul on Leonard against Durant was a 4 point swing on 2 plays.

And that charge on Ginobil... Durant was clearly moving. The officials have been all home court here in the 4th.
   693. PJ Martinez Posted: June 06, 2012 at 11:08 PM (#4150424)
#691: Stay classy, San Diego.
   694. Spivey Posted: June 06, 2012 at 11:10 PM (#4150426)
This is unacceptable officiating.
   695. JC in DC Posted: June 06, 2012 at 11:10 PM (#4150427)
The officials have been all home court here in the 4th.


I wonder how much Crawford has on the outcome?
   696. Srul Itza Posted: June 06, 2012 at 11:12 PM (#4150430)
The fix is in.
   697. Famous Original Joe C Posted: June 06, 2012 at 11:13 PM (#4150431)
Same officiating crew that fouled Pierce and Lebron out.
   698. Spivey Posted: June 06, 2012 at 11:14 PM (#4150432)
I don't want to say I'll be rooting for Boston over OKC, but I'm thinking it very loudly.
   699. JJ1986 Posted: June 06, 2012 at 11:14 PM (#4150433)
Harden looks like he was falling over before Ginobli hit him.
   700. Famous Original Joe C Posted: June 06, 2012 at 11:15 PM (#4150434)
You know, Harden flopped on that Ginobili charge, but after ten years of watching Ginobili do the very same thing at every opportunity, I don't really feel bad for him.
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