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Saturday, March 03, 2012

OT: NBA Monthly Thread, March 2012

I estimate that there may be more than 10-12 Primates who want to talk about the inevitable blacklash against Linsanity, and with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: Ryan Braun Urine, Players Being in the Best Shape of Their Lives, and what Eric Chavez thinks about the Moneyball movie.

Tripon Posted: March 03, 2012 at 08:39 AM | 1861 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1001. rr Posted: March 15, 2012 at 06:31 PM (#4081750)
Hollinger gave Washington a C- and Denver a B, so he thinks I'm wrong.
   1002. Lassus Posted: March 15, 2012 at 06:33 PM (#4081753)
I swear, if not now, at some point, SU will be the first #1 seed to lose to a #16. I really thought this was the year.
   1003. Jimmy P Posted: March 15, 2012 at 06:37 PM (#4081754)
Maybe, but McGee was the mayor of knucklehead central.


No. Blatche is easily the worst of all of them.

Hollinger gave Washington a C- and Denver a B, so he thinks I'm wrong.


I'm not sure I'm that down on Washington's side, but I think Denver did really well. Of course, like I said, I'm not sure taking the savings and immediately spending on Wilson Chandler is the optimal solution.
   1004. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: March 15, 2012 at 06:39 PM (#4081755)
The Wizards couldn’t find any takers for Andray Blatche, but will look to move him near the draft, according to a league source. And if the team is unable to deal Blatche this summer, the Wizards also have the amnesty provision at their disposal, which would allow them to waive him and have his salary removed from the cap. Washington Post
   1005. andrewberg Posted: March 15, 2012 at 06:55 PM (#4081762)
Maybe, but McGee was the mayor of knucklehead central.


No. Blatche is easily the worst of all of them.


If Blatche is the mayor of knucklehead central, at least McGee can be his Lieutenant. #salute

1004- And if they buy Lewis out of the non-guaranteed part of his deal, that leaves them with a pretty clean roster to go with their legitimately useful guys like Wall, Nene, Singleton, Booker. They're a very long ways away, but you have to start somewhere, and clearing the decks around a few keepers is a great foundation.
   1006. Jimmy P Posted: March 15, 2012 at 07:01 PM (#4081767)
If Blatche is the mayor of knucklehead central, at least McGee can be his Lieutenant. #salute


Maybe. But McGee's problems are mostly small mental errors. I don't know if there's anything with him. Is he likable, coachable? He seems to work hard during games, he's a beast of a rebounder and blocker. Considering the environment and coaching he's been a part of, I'm not shocked. Karl won't let him get away with the stuff he's done in Washington.

Blatche is another issue altogether. He's a problem. Inflated sense of self worth, lazy, chucker, confrontational. That's a true knucklehead.
   1007. Kurt Posted: March 15, 2012 at 07:02 PM (#4081768)
No. Blatche is easily the worst of all of them.

Blatche is almost certainly a worse player/teammate/contract/person, but in terms of pure knuckleheadedness McGee takes a back seat to nobody. I'll miss him.

Edit: It looks like we just have different definitions of knucklehead. To me, whatever term best fits Blatche is worse than knucklehead.
   1008. Fourth True Outcome Posted: March 15, 2012 at 07:05 PM (#4081772)
It seems like we have two different forms of knuckleheadery. Blatche is the destructive kind, who thinks he knows better than the voices of reason, whereas McGee is the doofus kind of knucklehead, who's trying to do the right thing, but, you know, gets back on D when the team is on offense. JaVale is of course the kind you want, if you have to have one.

Who are the untradeable guys right now, for not completely contract-related reasons? Blatche and Felton were actively shopped to no avail, is anyone else in that category? Could a team be assembled? (I would have kind of assumed Stack Jack was there, but then he just got traded twice.)

Edit: Coke to Kurt
   1009. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: March 15, 2012 at 07:14 PM (#4081777)
So now that Greg Oden's getting waived, would you want your favorite team to take a chance on him?
   1010. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: March 15, 2012 at 07:26 PM (#4081785)
So now that Greg Oden's getting waived, would you want your favorite team to take a chance on him?

His deal was $8mil this year, right? So if a team claimed him on waivers, they'd pay the rest. I don't think anyone really wants his Bird rights, and he's already done for the year. For the minimum or some sort of incentive heavy deal, he makes sense for a lot of teams. I almost hope he picks Phoenix, so their magic and voodoo could possibly work wonders on him.
   1011. smileyy Posted: March 15, 2012 at 07:43 PM (#4081795)
Kilicli of West Virginia looks like he should be lifting old-timey weights, or tying young women to railroad tracks.
   1012. rr Posted: March 15, 2012 at 07:53 PM (#4081800)
Pau Gasol posted on YouTube today after the deadline, saying he is happy to still be in LA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAzA8lV3dZw
   1013. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: March 15, 2012 at 08:19 PM (#4081812)
Mike Trudell: Dr. Buss: “I want to express my deepest gratitude to Derek for everything he has meant to this organization over the years." Twitter
Mike Trudell: Kupchak has not yet spoken to Fisher, understands that it's a very hard situation. Hopes to reach him later today or tomorrow. Twitter
Michael Falgoust: GM Kupchak on Fisher: "It’s hard to put into words what he has meant to this organization, on the court , off the court. ... "
I've trashed Fisher on this thread more than anyone, but... Starting point guard for five World Championship teams and seven Western Conference Championships, numerous huge moments in the playoffs (0.4!) and Finals, respected across the league, president of the Players' Association, and (thus far) over $57 million earned over his career. Not a bad career for a 24th pick from a school nobody's ever heard of.

Bye, Fish.
   1014. kpelton Posted: March 15, 2012 at 08:57 PM (#4081844)
His deal was $8mil this year, right?

I don't know the exact figure, but it's not far above the minimum. I don't see how he plays next year, so you're talking about tying up a roster spot for a season-plus. Can't see it.
   1015. puck Posted: March 15, 2012 at 09:01 PM (#4081846)
Maybe you gotta give JaVale tough love. Seems like George Karl can do that. (Link is to the January WaPo interview with his Mom.)
   1016. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: March 15, 2012 at 09:46 PM (#4081866)
Missed the second half of the Knick game last night. What happened?

EDIT: I'm referring to Krusty's 984.
   1017. JC in DC Posted: March 15, 2012 at 09:49 PM (#4081867)
What was the Knicks disgraceful behavior last night?
   1018. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: March 15, 2012 at 09:55 PM (#4081871)
The Knicks (specifically Shumpert and Smith) were running up the score as time ran down in a total blowout. They were still going for it even with under 24 ticks to play, instead of just dribbling out the clock.
   1019. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: March 15, 2012 at 10:10 PM (#4081884)
[1018] Oh...eh, I'm fine with that.
   1020. JC in DC Posted: March 15, 2012 at 10:13 PM (#4081888)
I watched the game and completely didn't notice it. It wasn't disgraceful. Portland had utterly quit.
   1021. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: March 15, 2012 at 10:14 PM (#4081889)
Primer retweet:

Landry Fields ? @landryfields
Me: "I had Harvard Linning at least one game." Jeremy: "Can you not?"... Oh, the whole world can use puns, but I can't? smh
   1022. tshipman Posted: March 15, 2012 at 10:34 PM (#4081905)
Maybe, but McGee was the mayor of knucklehead central.



989--I'm pretty much with berg on the Nuggets trade--they couldn't get a low first-rounder? and who do they grab in the off-season with the money coming off the books? Wilson Chandler is just yet another pretty good player; if this move is all about $ for Wilson Chandler, I will be underwhelmed...


While I understand both of these points, I am a fan of this deal for both teams. JaVale is now the only knucklehead on his team. I think that puts him in a much better position to get better. Is it somewhat of a longshot? Yes. But this Denver team wasn't making any noise. Denver is on pace for what would be a 45 win season. Keeping Nene wasn't going to get them out of purgatory. I like teams making ballsy trades. For Washington, it allows them to clear out the knuckleheads.
   1023. tshipman Posted: March 15, 2012 at 10:38 PM (#4081909)
I've trashed Fisher on this thread more than anyone, but... Starting point guard for five World Championship teams and seven Western Conference Championships, numerous huge moments in the playoffs (0.4!) and Finals, respected across the league, president of the Players' Association, and (thus far) over $57 million earned over his career. Not a bad career for a 24th pick from a school nobody's ever heard of.


I hated the Fisher trade for the Lakers. Yes, he's off the team now. It's not how you should treat guys who are truly class acts who have done nothing but give their all for the team.
   1024. steagles Posted: March 16, 2012 at 12:26 AM (#4081957)
While I understand both of these points, I am a fan of this deal for both teams. JaVale is now the only knucklehead on his team. I think that puts him in a much better position to get better. Is it somewhat of a longshot? Yes. But this Denver team wasn't making any noise. Denver is on pace for what would be a 45 win season. Keeping Nene wasn't going to get them out of purgatory. I like teams making ballsy trades. For Washington, it allows them to clear out the knuckleheads.
i don't see a whole lot of upside in it for denver. i guess mcgee might be slightly better for a few years longer, but i don't think he's likely to turn himself into a 20 and 10 type of guy. i can see him being sort of a tyson chandler, but if you want to be a contender, i think you need to pair him with a more dynamic scorer than kenneth faried.

and speaking of, does anyone have an opinion on royce white? he's averaging 13 and 9, with 5 assists, a steal, and a block per game, shooting 52% from the floor. he's listed at 6'8, 270, and he just seems like an extremely unique player. he's probably got no business entering the draft this year (i've gotta think he'd be better going back to iowa state as a junior and trying to improve on his shooting 49% from the FT line and turning the ball over 3.9 times per game), but i'm intrigued.


also, i haven't really been keeping up with the whole hoopidea thing, but have they talked about taking charges out of the game? as in, instead of have some ambiguous charge/block call, it would just always be a blocking foul.
   1025. Tripon Posted: March 16, 2012 at 12:40 AM (#4081958)

I hated the Fisher trade for the Lakers. Yes, he's off the team now. It's not how you should treat guys who are truly class acts who have done nothing but give their all for the team.


How do you treat them then? He's clearly been washed up for years, and he wouldn't retire.
   1026. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: March 16, 2012 at 01:19 AM (#4081966)
I hated the Fisher trade for the Lakers. Yes, he's off the team now. It's not how you should treat guys who are truly class acts who have done nothing but give their all for the team.

That's interesting. Maybe I'm crazy, but I would never describe Fisher this way. Always thought he was one of the league's dirtiest players and quite the cheap shot artist.
   1027. rr Posted: March 16, 2012 at 02:10 AM (#4081975)
Maybe I'm crazy,

You're not crazy; you're just a Hater and not a Lakers fan. A lot of people other than Knicks fans think John Starks was a mouthy,classless punk who never would have smelled the NBA Finals if Jordan had not taken his sabbatical, and, very much unlike Fisher, was a choker in Game 7 of the Finals when the money was on the table.

Pretty much the same thing.

__

Analytically, there is nothing to find fault with in the Lakers' deals. They covered PG, they dumped salary and useless dross, and they got two young guys who can help them win now. The cost was two draft picks, but even in a deep draft it is highly unlikely that those picks would net players who are better than Sessions and Hill. They are not favorites, but they are going to be a tough out for anybody in the West now, with all the usual caveats about health. Hollinger, no Lakers supporter, said as much today.

But emotionally, well, Lakers fans are uptight about this on four levels:

1. How will Kobe take it? How will the clubhouse be?
2. Is Buss going to piss off everybody except Bynum?
3. What if Fisher signs with Miami?
4. We wanted him out of the LINEUP, but not off the TEAM.

Fisher has come through in many big moments; whatever one thinks of clutch narratives, he had the big run in 2001, hit the .4 shot in 2004, hit the 3 in 2009, had the big Game 3 in 2010 and hit the game-tying 3 in Game 7 in 2010. He is articulate and smart, stays in great shape, and competes hard. All that is a lot more important to Lakers fans than a few cheap shots.

OTOH, I suspect he was moved in part because the FO thought or knew he would not go gently into that good night. The KBros, who admire him as a man, have on more than one occasion called him "prideful" and have said that Brown would have trouble sitting Fisher when the time came. So that is probably part of the story as well.
   1028. Tripon Posted: March 16, 2012 at 02:24 AM (#4081978)

3. What if Fisher signs with Miami?
4. We wanted him out of the LINEUP, but not off the TEAM.

Fisher has come through in many big moments; whatever one thinks of clutch narratives, he had the big run in 2001, hit the .4 shot in 2004, hit the 3 in 2009, had the big Game 3 in 2010 and hit the game-tying 3 in Game 7 in 2010. He is articulate and smart, stays in great shape, and competes hard. All that is a lot more important to Lakers fans than a few cheap shots.


If Fisher signed with Miami, he becomes a double agent then. Dude is DONE, especially defensively, he doesn't have much use anymore. I wanted off the lineup and trading him serves that process. He's been great for the Lakers, but 1) He did leave the Lakers via Free Agency once before, and 2) he would have played if he was still on the team. If they wouldn't bench him before, they wouldn't bench him now if he was still on the team.
   1029. rr Posted: March 16, 2012 at 03:36 AM (#4081986)

If Fisher signed with Miami,


This is not something that I am personally concerned about, since I don't hate Miami and I don't think the Lakers will be in the Finals in any case (Miami may not be either, of course). But I saw several people mention it today; the optics of Fisher hoisting the trophy in a Heat uni next to James and Wade would be tough on them. Houston is expected to buy Fisher out.

Like I said, the Fisher stuff is emotional, not analytical. Given Fisher's career arc in LA (and yes, I saw people mentioning that Fisher did leave for money back in 05--not that anyone blames him), the emotional response from many Lakers fans is understandable.

Couple of notes from ESPNLA:

McMenamin says there is no plan to give much PT to Jordan Hill unless he comes on strong in practice. If so, that is a mistake. Hill should get 10-20 MPG with this roster.

Clippers were outscored 27-12 in the 4th and lost at home to PHX, playing without Nash and GHill. The Clippers held a closed-door meeting after the game that lasted over an hour. Arnovitz called the Clippers 4th-quarter offense "grotesque", which seems strange for a Chris Paul-run team. I have seen very few Clippers games this year, but my first thoughts are "Del Negro" and "Billups." Nick Young will help a bit.
   1030. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: March 16, 2012 at 03:41 AM (#4081987)
I wanted off the lineup and trading him serves that process. He's been great for the Lakers, but 1) He did leave the Lakers via Free Agency once before, and 2) he would have played if he was still on the team. If they wouldn't bench him before, they wouldn't bench him now if he was still on the team.
This is all true, but as hard as I beat the drum for him to be benched, I didn't want to see him actually off the team. The Lakers are undeniably better, and Fisher is undeniably done, but it's still difficult to see that guy get traded. It was sad to see A.C. Green and Byron Scott move on after the Magic/Kareem dynasty wrapped up. It's even more difficult with Fisher because the dynasty he was a part of here isn't quite finished yet.

EDIT: Or what RR said.
   1031. AROM Posted: March 16, 2012 at 08:18 AM (#4082009)
Somebody might sign him, but I don't think Fisher has any value to a contender except possibly the Lakers. As a washed up veteran who may have a few tricks up his sleeve, I think he needs to be playing with teammates who know his strengths and weaknesses very well. For Miami, I'd hope they remember how painful it was to watch Bibby last year and realize they have superior alternatives in Chalmers and Cole.

I think Fisher may be underrated offensively because the Lakers never needed a traditional PG role, so he doesn't have the assist stats he might have had if he were the guy bringing the ball up all the time. For the role he had, sit around and wait for an open 3, he did a fine job. But this move had to be made for defensive reasons. Fisher can't guard anyone who is capable of lateral movement. I know very little about Sessions but I know he can't be any worse at guarding PGs.
   1032. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 16, 2012 at 08:31 AM (#4082013)
Woodson all but says he's going to bury Jeremy Lin in favor of Melo chucking and Baron Davis doing whatever the hell he does. (*) There's even talk of a Mike Bibby resurrection. Mike Bibby!!

Darrell Walker -- another Isiah guy -- brought in as assistant coach. Isiah's clearly in Dolan's ear and he has his puppets running the show.(**)

Enjoy, Knicks fans. I'm all but out. I've already wasted too much time and money on abject incompetence and the perpetual illusions of the savior just around the corner. Phil Jackson isn't coming here and even if he does, he'll wind up buried by The Machine as were Lenny Wilkens, Larry Brown, Donnie Walsh, and Mike D'Antoni.

It's hopeless.

(*) The Hawks players couldn't stand Woodson and they're playing much better for Larry Drew.

(**) Yes, that Isiah -- the guy who can't even put together a winning college program. He's under .333 at FIU.
   1033. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 16, 2012 at 08:40 AM (#4082018)
Every Knick fan with a functioning brain thought and said Anthony would come in and ruin the team that ran off a nice winning streak without him, and that's exactly what happened.
   1034. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: March 16, 2012 at 08:47 AM (#4082024)
They should have traded Anthony for Sam Young when they had the chance.
   1035. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 16, 2012 at 09:06 AM (#4082031)
Jim Dolan is like the B.O. in Seinfeld's car.
   1036. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: March 16, 2012 at 10:07 AM (#4082057)
You're not crazy; you're just a Hater and not a Lakers fan. A lot of people other than Knicks fans think John Starks was a mouthy,classless punk who never would have smelled the NBA Finals if Jordan had not taken his sabbatical, and, very much unlike Fisher, was a choker in Game 7 of the Finals when the money was on the table.

Thanks?
   1037. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: March 16, 2012 at 10:13 AM (#4082063)
@1032&1033;/SBB

I'll give Woodson time to see if his plot works. I'm shocked that Dolan would consider benching a cashcow like Lin, but if Lin doesn't fit Woodson's system (as everybody seems to expect) and Davis takes the starter's job and runs with it... I'll live.

I'm deeply disturbed by Straight Shot's continued alliance with Isiah, but if the Knicks pull off a run like '99 from here on out, I'll take it gladly and stick around. OTOH, if we crap out entirely while Melo pads his stats? Well, I'd rather not consider that situation no matter how plausible it may be.
   1038. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 16, 2012 at 10:31 AM (#4082072)
There's not going to be a run and the Knicks aren't going to beat a high seed with this team. Gotta give up the dream. Not gonna happen.

They're going to crap out while Melo pads his stats and Baron Davis geezers it up the floor and turns it over. Thanks, but no thanks.
   1039. AROM Posted: March 16, 2012 at 10:35 AM (#4082075)
The Anthony trade was a bad idea because they already had Stoudamire. Different styles for sure, but both players are high volume scorers who don't help you much in any other part of the game. A good team has room for one player like that, but not two.

Pretty sad that the fans who suffered through the decision to pay big money for Allen Houston and Starbury have to watch the same thing at the forward positions.
   1040. tshipman Posted: March 16, 2012 at 10:40 AM (#4082078)
You're not crazy; you're just a Hater and not a Lakers fan. A lot of people other than Knicks fans think John Starks was a mouthy,classless punk who never would have smelled the NBA Finals if Jordan had not taken his sabbatical, and, very much unlike Fisher, was a choker in Game 7 of the Finals when the money was on the table.

Yeah, I don't see why that was necessary.

That's interesting. Maybe I'm crazy, but I would never describe Fisher this way. Always thought he was one of the league's dirtiest players and quite the cheap shot artist.

I guess I was drawing a distinction between on court/off court. On the court, Fisher is fearless and at times dirty (he's no Bruce Bowen). Off the court, he is one of the best ambassadors for the NBA.
At six feet nothing, Fisher's the toughest guy the Lakers send out there. The play where he leveled Scola in the playoffs--supremely physical. Borderline dirty. Got the point across. Dirty, to me, means risking injuring the other players. That's what Bowen did all the time, and that I don't see Fisher doing. Sneaking in some elbows when the refs aren't looking isn't as bad as sliding underneath a guy in midair.
   1041. Jimmy P Posted: March 16, 2012 at 10:44 AM (#4082080)
I hated the Fisher trade for the Lakers. Yes, he's off the team now. It's not how you should treat guys who are truly class acts who have done nothing but give their all for the team.

Let's not go overboard. First and foremost, it's a business. Fisher knows it's a business, he was one of the top people in the CBA negotiations. Secondly, he's not the classiest of acts. He is a dirty player, and even if you dismiss that, when he had the first chance to get big money, he took it. He didn't give the Lakers any discount, he jumped to the bigger money Utah offered at the first chance he got. (How he weaseled his way back to LA is a whole other story) Let's not get too carried away with St. Fisher here.

Analytically, there is nothing to find fault with in the Lakers' deals. They covered PG, they dumped salary and useless dross, and they got two young guys who can help them win now. The cost was two draft pick

I think the Lakers made themselves a much more formidable opponent in the playoffs. And if it costs a few late rounders, who cares? They have 2-3 years here, and someone they pick at 25 isn't going to change that too much. The Lakers will never have trouble attracting free agents, so ride this out, clear the books, and then pay someone huge.

Delusional Blazer fans are back! I've heard people talking about how Johnny Flynn should be the starter and get the lion's share of point guard minutes. People, I know Felton's sucked this year, but he's not terrible over the course of his career. And if you think he's bad, well, you ain't seen anything yet. Don't even get me started on Tha-bust.

   1042. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: March 16, 2012 at 11:04 AM (#4082103)
I guess I was drawing a distinction between on court/off court. On the court, Fisher is fearless and at times dirty (he's no Bruce Bowen). Off the court, he is one of the best ambassadors for the NBA.
At six feet nothing, Fisher's the toughest guy the Lakers send out there. The play where he leveled Scola in the playoffs--supremely physical. Borderline dirty. Got the point across. Dirty, to me, means risking injuring the other players. That's what Bowen did all the time, and that I don't see Fisher doing. Sneaking in some elbows when the refs aren't looking isn't as bad as sliding underneath a guy in midair.


Got it. I agree with the on/off court. As far as on-court I was definitely thinking of the Scola incident first and foremost. In some ways some of the stuff I vaguely remember him doing on the court reminds me, as a Knicks fan, of Charlie Ward, who I also considered a dirty player. Not that he was trying to outright injure anyone, but anything he could get away with he would.
   1043. The Buddy Biancalana Hit Counter Posted: March 16, 2012 at 11:07 AM (#4082109)
(*) The Hawks players couldn't stand Woodson and they're playing much better for Larry Drew.

Joe Johnson had no problems with Woodson (and vice-versa) and no one outside of Toronto has a bad word for Al Horford. It was just Josh Smith, Zaza Pachulia, Josh Childress, Jeff Teague, Anthony Johnson, Boris Diaw, and Acie Law IV that had serious problems with Woodson at one time or another in Atlanta.
   1044. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 16, 2012 at 11:12 AM (#4082115)
So more than half the team?

Of course JJ didn't have problems with him; Woodson let him chuck it up every time down the floor.

No one missed the guy when ATL sh!tcanned him. He's a prickly pain in the ass with a boring style who's nothing better than an average coach. He was probably disloyal to D'Antoni, too -- but that won't come out for at least a few more weeks.
   1045. The Buddy Biancalana Hit Counter Posted: March 16, 2012 at 11:20 AM (#4082122)
So more than half the team?

Yep. And I forgot to include his end-run around Billy Knight to the owners to prevent Knight from firing him on three separate occasions during the 07-08 season. Knight quit at the end of that season, Woodson's contract was up and the owners conducted a GM search while telling all candidates that, once hired, their first order of business would be to sign Woodson to a new contract.

What's fascinating about Woodson was that he was a horrible coach with the younger Hawks teams over the four years of his initial contract but generally harmless (second round of the playoffs excepted) his last two seasons once his rotation options shrunk and players aged into their primes. I'm fascinated to see what he does as head coach of the Knicks, both on and off the court.
   1046. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: March 16, 2012 at 11:28 AM (#4082125)
He was probably disloyal to D'Antoni, too -- but that won't come out for at least a few more weeks.


I'm ready to connect the dots now. He's going to implement an offensive scheme that fully endorses what Melo's people and Isiah were likely whispering in Dolan's stupid son's ear. He was brought on staff at the recommendation of whom? I'd say Isiah. I think it's likely that he held a ton of sway with Sure Shot Shitehead to the point that Woodson was having discussions about how he'd change the system.

I thought the rumor that D'Antoni was campaigning for a Melo for DWill trade was pretty interesting. If you're the Nets, I guess you make that deal. Would have been quite risky for the Knicks to go for it, but I would have loved it.
   1047. Quaker Posted: March 16, 2012 at 11:29 AM (#4082126)
Billups has been out for like a month, so he's not responsible for the Clippers' poor 4th qtr, unless you were saying they missed him.
   1048. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 16, 2012 at 11:31 AM (#4082129)
And I forgot to include his end-run around Billy Knight to the owners to prevent Knight from firing him on three separate occasions during the 07-08 season. Knight quit at the end of that season, Woodson's contract was up and the owners conducted a GM search while telling all candidates that, once hired, their first order of business would be to sign Woodson to a new contract.

Interesting. I'm now totally confident that he backstabbed D'Antoni -- probably via Isiah. He probably was an anonymous source for some of the dissention-sowing stories in the press, too.
   1049. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 16, 2012 at 11:40 AM (#4082142)
I'm ready to connect the dots now. He's going to implement an offensive scheme that fully endorses what Melo's people and Isiah were likely whispering in Dolan's stupid son's ear. He was brought on staff at the recommendation of whom? I'd say Isiah. I think it's likely that he held a ton of sway with Sure Shot Shitehead to the point that Woodson was having discussions about how he'd change the system.

Definitely Isiah. Once Walsh was out the door, Isiah got Woodson put on the staff and Grunwald took over as "interim" GM. Once that happened, nothing good was going to happen -- and when it accidentially did, it was going to grind to a halt.

The other faction is Creative Artists Agency, which reps Melo, Mark Warkentein -- the ex-Denver GM who brought in JR Smith, and (uh-oh) John Calipari. Their stars are in Sure Shot Shitehead's bloodshot eyes, too.

D'Antoni and the players who just care about winning basketball games -- and did win basketball games, once they were freed of Melo -- never stood a chance against all that.

We all knew Melo was going to come back and ruin what the team had going, and that's exactly what happened. Simple as that.
   1050. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: March 16, 2012 at 11:52 AM (#4082154)
What's especially galling to me is that D'Antoni had maybe a season to prove himself and this with a roster that had been constructed at odds with his system. I'm not even angry at Melo. This is all on Dolan, who basically undermined anything D'Antoni was doing. He essentially forced out Walsh and D'Antoni, two good basketball men who were forced on him by the league.
   1051. Jimmy P Posted: March 16, 2012 at 11:56 AM (#4082159)
He essentially forced out Walsh and D'Antoni, two good basketball men who were forced on him by the league.

Walsh is the more worrisome of the two. Coaches are hired to be fired, so going through them isn't as much of an issue in my mind. A team without a plan is scary, though.
   1052. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 16, 2012 at 12:17 PM (#4082171)
I love how Dolan and the rest of his buffoons have forgot that they played Melo-Ball for 23 games and went 8-15. They aren't trying something new; they're going back to the same garbage that led to home losses to the likes of Charlotte, Toronto, and Phoenix.
   1053. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: March 16, 2012 at 12:37 PM (#4082183)
I love how Dolan and the rest of his buffoons have forgot that they played Melo-Ball for 23 games and went 8-15. They aren't trying something new; they're going back to the same garbage that led to home losses to the likes of Charlotte, Toronto, and Phoenix.
Well in fairness, this isn't exactly the case. They played some weirdly modified form of D'Antoni-ball, with Melo as a point forward who didn't want to pass but felt pressured to. I think they'll likely have a winning record the rest of the way since the schedule gets easier from here on. Still, they'll be destroyed in the first round, and next year we'll get to see them play .500. Yay!
   1054. steagles Posted: March 16, 2012 at 01:09 PM (#4082234)
i think i'm starting to warm back up to yancy gates as a potential target in the 2nd round. the sixers have a lot of finesse in their frontcourt, and even if gates is kind of crazy and undisciplined and out of control, he's also a player who's willing to use his size to beat up on smaller opposition.

so, add him to the list of seniors who i'm hoping the sixers pull. festis ezeli, henry sims, ricardo ratliffe, kris joseph, kevin jones, marcus denmon, darius johnson-odom, tu holloway, and now yancy gates.


   1055. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: March 16, 2012 at 01:16 PM (#4082245)
Really? You're hoping to be able to root for Yancy Gates? You, sir, are a man without morality.
   1056. Jimmy P Posted: March 16, 2012 at 01:25 PM (#4082254)
Chad Ford pointed out in his article that the Grizzlies had 3 picks in the 2009 draft. None of them are on the Grizzlies after yesterday
   1057. rr Posted: March 16, 2012 at 01:28 PM (#4082257)


   1058. JJ1986 Posted: March 16, 2012 at 01:29 PM (#4082258)
Chad Ford pointed out in his article that the Grizzlies had 3 picks in the 2009 draft. None of them are on the Grizzlies after yesterday

The same is true for 2010.
   1059. rr Posted: March 16, 2012 at 01:30 PM (#4082259)
After much speculation, on July 19, 2007, Fisher officially rejoined the Los Angeles Lakers by signing a three-year contract worth roughly $14 million.[14][15] He had given up roughly $8 million over three years, as he was due about $22 million over the next three years in his prior contract with the Jazz. Jazz owner Larry Miller noted that "it did look funny" that Fisher signed with the Lakers, but he did not believe Fisher or Lakers owner Jerry Buss would do anything underhanded.[16] Jazz fans have taunted him, suspecting that he simply wanted to return to the Lakers.[17]
   1060. steagles Posted: March 16, 2012 at 01:56 PM (#4082286)
Really? You're hoping to be able to root for Yancy Gates? You, sir, are a man without morality.
i'm just a really big fan of really aggressive big men. the sixers have spencer hawes starting right now, and as well as he's played, he's not exactly a physical presence. nik vucevic really just hasn't been as much of a banger as i was hoping. elton brand just isn't a dominant physical force. thaddeus young is just not that, either. lavoy allen just is not aggressive. he's absolutely given the team more than i ever thought he would, but he's just not that guy.

with the emphasis that the sixers place on bringing in good guys, i doubt that gates is anywhere near their radar, but i think he could add something to this team.
   1061. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 16, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4082294)
i'm not sold on gates, irrespective of off-court stuff.

people are complicated. fisher's a people. i've no problem w/ how la let him go.

buddy's covering the woodson experience pretty nicely.
   1062. madvillain Posted: March 16, 2012 at 02:11 PM (#4082307)
Del Negro apparently got into a physical altercation with Mo Williams last night. This should surprise nobody. Del Negro fought with Paxson (again, literally) and he just seems like the type that lets pride get in the way of his work.
   1063. Jimmy P Posted: March 16, 2012 at 02:13 PM (#4082311)
Really? You're hoping to be able to root for Yancy Gates? You, sir, are a man without morality.


DraftNet doesn't even have him in the top 100, Draft Express has him in the 80s, and Ford has him in the 70s. It seems if anyone wants him, they can probably have him for free. He seems a bit undersized to me. And he's crazy.

Speaking of prospects, I saw someone on Twitter or here compare Sullinger to Marcus Fizer. I think he'll be better than that, but I don't see Sullinger being more than a role player.
   1064. rr Posted: March 16, 2012 at 02:13 PM (#4082312)
Thanks for the help. Sorry about that. Happened from the wikipedia thing about Fisher when I copied and pasted. ______________________________________________

Slightly shorter version of my response to NJ, shipman and Jimmy:

No, my Starksnark was probably not "necessary" but neither was NJ telling us for the 7th or 8th time that he doesn't like Fisher and thinks he is a cheap-shot artist based on the Scola play and the flopping. Those posts were mostly just a couple of Lakers fans saying goodbye to a franchise favorite, and after 34 months of this thread, we know who hates whom. As we have discussed, Simmonsian sportshate is a very subjective, fanbased thing--as NJ's liking Starks while hating Fisher shows very clearly.

As to the idea that Fisher "weaseled" or "lied", as many Utah fans have said, about the options for treatment for his baby daughter's ocular condition so that he could return to the Lakers...well, I don't knwow that he didn't, but I would also say that Jimmy's going there was "unnecessary."

The goodbye/don't like the trade posts might have been better placed on a Lakers site--there have of course been many of those over the last 18 hours. But Hombre and shipman probably just talk hoops here.
   1065. Jimmy P Posted: March 16, 2012 at 02:16 PM (#4082317)
Del Negro apparently got into a physical altercation with Mo Williams last night. This should surprise nobody. Del Negro fought with Paxson (again, literally) and he just seems like the type that lets pride get in the way of his work.

He's a disaster. When the Clippers bring in a new coach next year, they'll make a jump like the Bulls did.
   1066. rr Posted: March 16, 2012 at 02:17 PM (#4082318)
Quaker,

Yes, I was saying that they miss Billups. They really have not been the same team since he went down. I am pretty sure that they are under .500 without him.
   1067. andrewberg Posted: March 16, 2012 at 02:21 PM (#4082323)
It would be very good for the Clippers if Del Negro submarined his coaching career and gave Sterling no choice but to fire him at the end of the year. More than 4th quarter offensive struggles, they need someone who can help them learn how to play defense as a team.
   1068. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 16, 2012 at 02:25 PM (#4082326)
billups is such a nice player to have around - that he was solid at the defending the two was, while not totally unexpected (he was already at his best in a crossmatch), really really helpful for them.
   1069. rr Posted: March 16, 2012 at 02:26 PM (#4082328)
It would be very good for the Clippers if Del Negro submarined his coaching career and gave Sterling no choice but to fire him at the end of the year.


I am about 95% sure this will happen. Arnovitz said as much in December after they got Billups and Paul. I think a first-round loss (maybe to the Lakers--there could easily be a 3/6 or 4/5 Hallway Series) would probably do it.

The thing is, though, I don't know that I trust The Little Donald to make a good hire. Olshey seems to be pretty smart, but the Clippers will always be the Clippers to an extent with Sterling in charge.
   1070. andrewberg Posted: March 16, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4082329)
Well, Sterling's trusted hooker suggested that he hire Adrian Dantley years ago, and even if he wasn't ready at the time, he has developed into a decent coach. She seems to have a solid eye for coaching talent.
   1071. Jimmy P Posted: March 16, 2012 at 02:29 PM (#4082330)
It would be very good for the Clippers if Del Negro submarined his coaching career and gave Sterling no choice but to fire him at the end of the year.

I'm pretty sure Vinny's contract is up at the end of this season.
   1072. steagles Posted: March 16, 2012 at 03:02 PM (#4082360)
Speaking of prospects, I saw someone on Twitter or here compare Sullinger to Marcus Fizer. I think he'll be better than that, but I don't see Sullinger being more than a role player.
i am not at all a fan of sullinger in the top 5. his relative safeness should put him in that territory, but i wouldn't want to be a fan of the lottery team that takes him in that range.

for all the talk about how this is a loaded draft class, i see a lot of vulnerability at the top of it. i don't think sullinger is capable of carrying a team, either on offense or defense. drummond is an absolutely horrid FT shooter. perry jones has a strength deficiency and can't rebound. kidd-gilchrist is a piss-poor shooter. harrison barnes has been underwhelming. tyler zeller is underwhelming. austin rivers is underwhelming.

there's really not a single elite ball-handler in this class.

anthony davis looks like a stud, but he also looks like he'll struggle defensively against stronger, more physical, more consistent NBA competition.


it seems to me that this class just isn't nearly as good as people have been saying (for years) that it was.
   1073. Into the Void Posted: March 16, 2012 at 03:09 PM (#4082362)
If you run the Clippers, would you choose D'Antoni or McMillan once VDN is gone?
   1074. andrewberg Posted: March 16, 2012 at 03:14 PM (#4082364)
Randolph is what, 19? His body will fill out quite a bit. It wouldn't surprise me if he ended up with a body somewhat like Tim Duncan's with much better athleticism. Even if he never meets Duncan's skill level, I don't think the body will be a problem.

I am not a fan of Perry Jones. I have a feeling that the only way he develops into anything close to a star is if he slides in the draft and develops a chip on his shoulder, a la Rudy Gay.
   1075. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 16, 2012 at 03:16 PM (#4082367)
anthony davis looks like a stud, but he also looks like he'll struggle defensively against stronger, more physical, more consistent NBA competition.

??

tyler zeller is underwhelming.

he's surpassed my expectations, i can say that. no star, but he should be a solid starter at the next level.
   1076. steagles Posted: March 16, 2012 at 03:25 PM (#4082378)
??
i think he's more serge ibaka than dwight howard. i think he's gonna get his blocks, but i don't think he's strong enough to stop bigger players from dominating him in the post.
   1077. AROM Posted: March 16, 2012 at 03:35 PM (#4082381)
anthony davis looks like a stud, but he also looks like he'll struggle defensively against stronger, more physical, more consistent NBA competition.


Maybe for a year or two. But he's only 18. He's likely to just get bigger and stronger once he's in the league.

When he was playing college ball I didn't think Noah would be strong enough for NBA post defense. Not a problem now.
   1078. Jimmy P Posted: March 16, 2012 at 03:45 PM (#4082387)
If you run the Clippers, would you choose D'Antoni or McMillan once VDN is gone?


With Chris Paul and Blake? D'Antoni.

There's lots of speculation that Nate joins Rich Cho in Charlotte.
   1079. smileyy Posted: March 16, 2012 at 04:44 PM (#4082420)
Maybe for a year or two. But he's only 18. He's likely to just get bigger and stronger once he's in the league.


He also has range to 19', so I can see him playing on the perimeter more and acting as a help-defender, rather than primary post defender.
   1080. steagles Posted: March 16, 2012 at 04:57 PM (#4082427)
Maybe for a year or two. But he's only 18. He's likely to just get bigger and stronger once he's in the league.
i understand that that's a possibility down the road, but the team that drafts him #1 overall is paying for his age 19-23 seasons. maybe he fills out towards the end of that, but for his first couple of years, i think he's gonna be at a physical disadvantage if he's getting big minutes at the 5.


i'm just not blown away by him right now.
   1081. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: March 16, 2012 at 05:03 PM (#4082432)
i understand that that's a possibility down the road, but the team that drafts him #1 overall is paying for his age 19-23 seasons.
But after that, he becomes a RFA and can still have other offers matched, so really the team can control him up until at least (I think) his 24-26 seasons as well. That's not interesting for a team like Philly, but it definitely would be for a team horrible enough to end up with the first pick in the draft.
   1082. steagles Posted: March 16, 2012 at 05:32 PM (#4082465)
But after that, he becomes a RFA and can still have other offers matched, so really the team can control him up until at least (I think) his 24-26 seasons as well. That's not interesting for a team like Philly, but it definitely would be for a team horrible enough to end up with the first pick in the draft.
i get that, too.

maybe i'm just not viewing him through the right lens. am i wrong for looking at him like a center? i'm talking about how he'll match up against al jefferson and al horford and greg monroe and deandre jordan--not even the real cream of the crop (marc gasol, andrew bynum, dwight howard)--but should i be thinking of him more as a PF? should i be considering how he matches up against chris bosh or carlos boozer instead?


   1083. madvillain Posted: March 16, 2012 at 05:36 PM (#4082470)
I agree on Sullinger. My buddy had a good comment as we were watching the B1G Tourney: "he's big and athletic, but everyone is big and athletic in the NBA".

That said, Sullinger is not Fizer. Fizer was an undersized PF in the mold of big baby or Boozer or Dejuan Blair.

Sullinger has measured at 6-10" without shoes and 7-1" wingspan, according to DX. That's good, not great, but good size for an NBA PF and probably about average for all centers. He can run the floor and he should be able to finish and rebound OK inside.

I see him as a solid starter but never a star. I certainly wouldn't spend a top 5 pick on him. Anywhere from 6-12 sounds about right for him.

Outside of Davis, I don't see any surefire starts, this draft is deep, but not top heavy. That said, some teams in the middle to late first round are going to see guys with upside that don't usually stick around that long -- lot's of talent around, even if it's rather equally distributed.

______________________

Michigan plays OHIO (HALOL Brady Hoke) at 4:20est. Keep an eye on Trey Burke, arguably the best player in cbb under 6'. His on court demeanor is a dead ringer for Derrick Rose. Not hardly the athlete, but similar handle and ability to make a variety of layups and mid-range shots off the dribble.

   1084. smileyy Posted: March 16, 2012 at 05:39 PM (#4082474)
[1082] I think Camby is a good comp. I bet Camby was a rail after his freshman year of college too.

I've been impressed with Davis's ballhandling and court vision, so I can see him able to play on the perimeter on O and crashing the offensive glass, and covering the slighter of the PF or C on defense. He'll need a bulky PF beside him for a while though.

IIRC, he was a guard in high school who had a crazy growth spurt. His body isn't done yet, but its done enough to be playing in the NBA somewhere.
   1085. smileyy Posted: March 16, 2012 at 05:41 PM (#4082476)
I'm probably having selective memory, but are there a lot of guys in the NBA who are successful "below the rim" like Sullinger plays? The extent to which the Michigan St. bigs were able to harass him in the B1G title game disturbed me as to his NBA prospects. He's big, but he didn't seem to carve out space the way a guy like DeJuan Blair (another "below the rim" guy (but I could be wrong)) seemed to in college.


and he should be able to finish [...] OK inside.


I'm skeptical.
   1086. nick swisher hygiene Posted: March 16, 2012 at 05:44 PM (#4082480)
I've watched a lot of John Henson, and, well.....in the right situation, on the right team, he could really work. Dude is a freak: rebounds, blocks shots, will be able to guard 3 and 4 and run the floor. On offensive, he can do a bunch of things, but none of them quite well enough right now for the NBA: how that develops will be key.

But Davis is younger and has a much more sensible game.
   1087. madvillain Posted: March 16, 2012 at 05:47 PM (#4082483)
I'm probably having selective memory, but are there a lot of guys in the NBA who are successful "below the rim" like Sullinger plays?


Not really. But I think it's important to note that Sullinger isn't really a "below the rim" type player. Even if he can't jump very high, he's a legit 6-10 barefoot with a 7'1" wingspan -- once he puts on some muscle he's going to be dunking quite a bit on putbacks.

Thing is, outside of being big and fairly athletic he doesn't really have much skill. His mid-range game is pretty advanced, but his post game, from what I've seen in the 5 or so games I've watched O$U, is nowhere near developed enough to use consistently in the NBA.
   1088. Jimmy P Posted: March 16, 2012 at 05:48 PM (#4082484)
Sullinger has measured at 6-10" without shoes

I will be absolutely shocked if he measures above 6'9".

but are there a lot of guys in the NBA who are successful "below the rim" like Sullinger plays?

Kevin Love always had this question mark. But he's a much better passer and shooter than Sullinger. You've got Blair. Boozer always played that way.

Not really. But I think it's important to note that Sullinger isn't really a "below the rim" type player. Even if he can't jump very high, he's a legit 6-10 barefoot with a 7'1" wingspan -- once he puts on some muscle he's going to be dunking quite a bit on putbacks.

And I don't agree with this at all. He's stronger than most of the big men in the Big Ten, and he still ends up playing a below the rim game. Once he gets in with the trees, he's not going to dunk more.
   1089. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: March 16, 2012 at 05:52 PM (#4082492)
   1090. madvillain Posted: March 16, 2012 at 05:53 PM (#4082493)
I will be absolutely shocked if he measures above 6'9".


Yea, since that initial DX report I read I've seen him at 6'-9" three other places. His measurements at draft camp should be interesting.

And I don't agree with this at all. He's stronger than most of the big men in the Big Ten, and he still ends up playing a below the rim game. Once he gets in with the trees, he's not going to dunk more.


Yea we'll see. My perspective is biased because I see him against Evan Smotrycz and Jordan Morgan.
   1091. AROM Posted: March 16, 2012 at 05:57 PM (#4082495)
My impression of Davis, he's thin but strong. While he will probably put on some bulk, he may not even need it. I think he could be similar to Garnett.
   1092. smileyy Posted: March 16, 2012 at 05:57 PM (#4082499)
DX is usually good at having official measurements when they have data, and having accuracy to the .25". But they have incomplete measurements for him. Where did those come from? It wasn't from the draft combine last year, or he'd have height in shoes, standing reach, etc. like, e.g., Tu Holloway has from last year: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Tu-Holloway-6326/
   1093. Jimmy P Posted: March 16, 2012 at 06:06 PM (#4082508)
Yea we'll see. My perspective is biased because I see him against Evan Smotrycz and Jordan Morgan.


Hell, I watched us guard him one-on-one with Robbie Hummel.

Maybe for a year or two. But he's only 18. He's likely to just get bigger and stronger once he's in the league.


There was this really skinny high school kid about 15 years ago that a lot of people said couldn't play inside either...
   1094. smileyy Posted: March 16, 2012 at 06:15 PM (#4082516)
Who wants to be Anthony Davis's Stephon Marbury? Calling all overrated NYC PG's....
   1095. Jimmy P Posted: March 16, 2012 at 06:52 PM (#4082554)
If anyone had Mizzou in their Final Four, I'm sorry
   1096. rr Posted: March 16, 2012 at 06:54 PM (#4082558)
I have only seen Davis twice, but I was impressed by both him and his eyebrow. ISTM he will at least be as good as Camby, and Camby has had a fine career. The Garnett comps...there are not that many guys of any size with motors like Garnett has, so I am not sure about that one. But I liked Davis when I saw him.
   1097. smileyy Posted: March 16, 2012 at 06:54 PM (#4082559)
I was kind of looking forward to both teams in Missouri/Florida going over 100 points when they played. Congrats to Mizzou for being the 5th 2 seed to lose to a 15.

I had Mizzou, but had them losing to Florida. This is probably better for my bracket than Mizzou putting it together and messing up more things for me.
   1098. smileyy Posted: March 16, 2012 at 06:55 PM (#4082562)
I think if you get Marcus Camby with a #1 pick, you're probably not unhappy. I don't know if you're thrilled, but I don't see Davis being a bust.
   1099. Eddo Posted: March 16, 2012 at 07:08 PM (#4082573)
I had Mizzou, but had them losing to Florida. This is probably better for my bracket than Mizzou putting it together and messing up more things for me.

Certainly.

Really, unless their bracket is in a pool that is highly unconventional (i.e. early-round wins count for as many points as later-round wins), this is a good thing for anyone who didn't have Mizzou making the Final Four.

(And for me, who purchased Michigan State in a team auction, this removes the single biggest obstacle(*) from a big payday!
(*) Of course, it's still a long way to go, and on the whole still not a 50/50 shot for MSU to win the region.)

EDIT: Which reminds me of a personal pet peeve around this time of year. Any time a high seed goes down early, there's inevitably that person who feels the need to tell you, "Well, they screwed my bracket." Of course, that person doesn't have them in the Final Four (I've even heard, "Well, I had them in the Sweet Sixteen"), so the loss probably helps them in the long run.
   1100. smileyy Posted: March 16, 2012 at 07:13 PM (#4082578)
Do any major systems use seed*round as scoring?
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