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Saturday, March 03, 2012

OT: NBA Monthly Thread, March 2012

I estimate that there may be more than 10-12 Primates who want to talk about the inevitable blacklash against Linsanity, and with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: Ryan Braun Urine, Players Being in the Best Shape of Their Lives, and what Eric Chavez thinks about the Moneyball movie.

Tripon Posted: March 03, 2012 at 08:39 AM | 1861 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1601. JC in DC Posted: March 26, 2012 at 04:20 PM (#4089493)


As someone who watched KD get locked down by Gordon Hayward one on one (6-22 from the field and with GH contesting everything and doing a reasonable job of keeping Durant in front of him) last week, I cannot believe this to be true. KD has a height, quickness, talent, and athleticism advantage over Hayward, and yet... nothing. They weren't even doubling him, KD was just on Hayward Island.


Really? I love Durant, as many of the old threads would show, but Hayward's a pretty damned good athlete. I'm not sure he's not a better athlete (whatever that really means anyway) than Durant. That said, Durant just may have been off that night.
   1602. smileyy Posted: March 26, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4089500)
And if Durant isn't shooting well, he doesn't have a lot else to bring to the table.

Edit: More damning with faint praise. Its probably better to say that if LeBron isn't shooting well, he's still a top-5 defender and distributor, and the same can't be said for Durant.
   1603. outl13r Posted: March 26, 2012 at 04:35 PM (#4089503)
I'm not sure he's not a better athlete (whatever that really means anyway)


Quickness, jumping, and strength. It's not a slight to Hayward, KD is one of the best in the game (defense not included).

Maybe my expectations of KD were too high. The other two games I saw out here, LBJ went OFF in the 4th (before famously passing to Haslem), DWade got hurt but showed flashes, Tony Parker and Tim Duncan played like Tony Parker and Tim Duncan. Russell Westbrook played great. KD played like... someone else.
   1604. Jimmy P Posted: March 26, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4089548)
my point is more the type of job that it took to pry Matta and Miller away

Ohio St wasn't a great place when Matta went there. And it's not like they had a more storied history than Illinois currently.

Well, Stevens and Smart and Few are all paid extremely well. Smart only made like $100k less than Weber this year, and he plays in a conference he should easily dominate.
   1605. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:05 PM (#4089606)
Quickness, jumping, and strength. It's not a slight to Hayward, KD is one of the best in the game (defense not included).


I don't think Durant has ever been accused of being strong.

My understanding of Durant is that his quickness/hops are good but not exceptional. What really sets him apart is his Dirk-like ability to be a great shooter at his size and especially wingspan -- it's just very very hard to prevent this type of player from getting their shot off (and both Durant and Dirk are good at creating space / fallaways / etc which exacerbates the problem). Durant is basically unguardable -- there are almost no perimeter players who can really affect his shot, and he is a very very good shooter.

His athleticism is certainly good enough that he can blow past taller/stockier guys when they try to guard him on the perimeter, but it's not his primary asset/skill.
   1606. smileyy Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:06 PM (#4089607)
Ohio St wasn't a great place when Matta went there. And it's not like they had a more storied history than Illinois currently.


I had forgotten about the not-exactly-impressive resume Jim O'Brien had put together at OSU, outside of one Final Four (and the Great Ineligibility Experiment). Looking at the historical seasons on Wikipedia, I'll concede the point -- Illinois can be considered comparable to OSU when Matta arrived -- perhaps an even better recent history actually.

I'm curious what makes the UI job so hard to hire for right now -- is it unreasonable expectations? I guess OSU has the football buffer, that they'll love you when you win, but will wait for football season if you lose? But not to the same detrimental extent as some SEC schools. Is it simply a dearth of coaching talent to fill the position with, such that Smart, Stevens, etc. are in a seller's market?

You're right in that one thing that has changed is that schools are investing in basketball and coaches, as a way to bring revenue into the school as a whole.

Here's wikipedia on historical results for both teams:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_Fighting_Illini_men's_basketball#Seasons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ohio_State_Buckeyes_men's_basketball_seasons
   1607. smileyy Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:09 PM (#4089609)
I don't think Durant has ever been accused of being strong.


No, but I don't remember him having trouble finishing at the rim, either.
   1608. Jimmy P Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:21 PM (#4089617)
I'm curious what makes the UI job so hard to hire for right now -- is it unreasonable expectations?

Probably some. There's pressure because Illinois puts out a lot of talent as a state, and they're also close to St. Louis. That's a whole bunch of talent, so you're expected to get some of it. Just as at any Big Ten school, you're going to be paid well, and people expect results.

But, there's drawbacks, too. Champaign isn't the greatest college town (and I'll concede that my alma mater isn't in a better one). I have no clue on facilities. And, for as good as they've been historically, they aren't viewed in the same breath as UNC, UK, KU, etc. That's partly ESPN and the sports media just ramming the big programs and showboat coaches down our throats.

Is it simply a dearth of coaching talent to fill the position with, such that Smart, Stevens, etc. are in a seller's market?

You're right in that one thing that has changed is that schools are investing in basketball and coaches, as a way to bring revenue into the school as a whole.


It's always a seller's market. I think these guys see jobs that pay comparably, but one has much more pressure in a harder environment. Also, they're young guys with families. Indianapolis probably isn't a bad place to live with a few million a year to have. And I'm sure in the area that VCU is in, Smart's family lives a nice quiet life and their money goes far. The wives won't get that at a Big Ten school. They'll be known in town.
   1609. smileyy Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:32 PM (#4089622)
And it's not like they had a more storied history than Illinois currently.


I'll try to make this a little more statistical and discussion-worthy. How far back does success count for having a storied history?

Is it "Multiple titles"? Probably not, because of the lack of storied history of San Francisco and Oklahoma A&M (Oh, they're Oklahoma State now, aren't they?)).
Is it "Multiple recent titles"? Closer, but N.C. State isn't really "storied" once you get past Valvano.
Is it ""Multiple titles in a basketball crazy area?" That would explain Louisville, and maybe North Carolina only has enough attention span for two of UNC, Duke and NC State?
Is it "Multiple titles across multiple coaches"? This probably gets closer to the point...UCLA only has one non-Wooden championship, but maybe that was enough to reset the "storied program" clock?

Maybe championships is too restrictive? We could look at Final Four's instead, and this is where I start to see a clear line. If you have more than 6 Final Four appearances, you're a storied program.

This includes:
(18) North Carolina, UCLA
(15) Duke, Kentucky
(14) Kansas
(11) Ohio State
(9) Louisville,
(8) Indiana, Michigan State

If you have 6 or fewer, things are getting a little fuzzier:
(6) Arkansas, Michigan, Cincinnati, Oklahoma State,
(5) Georgetown, Houston Illinois
(4) Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Kansas State, LSU, Oklahoma, Syracuse, UNLV, Utah, Villanova
(3) California, Iowa, Marquette, Memphis, N.C. State, San Francisco, Texas

So, to be storied, I think you need more than one title, and you need lots of Final Four appearances.
   1610. smileyy Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:36 PM (#4089626)
Facilities is probably a huge issue. I know Xavier felt like they had established their firm foothold when they built the Cintas Center, and have continuously improved it.


There's pressure because Illinois puts out a lot of talent as a state


How much of the talent comes from Chicago, and how much from the rest of the state? If I grew up in Chicago, I'm not sure I'd want to spend 1-4 years in Champaign. Illinois is kind of two different states that way. The void of a major program in Chicago is an interesting wrinkle. DePaul's facilities suck, Northwestern is snobby and smart, and there's not really anything else.

I think its more a seller's market now, because for the truly desirable coaches, the pay _has_ become comparable. I think the young coaches are right to want more money and more control within the program. You can't say "Shaka, we need you, here's a bunch of money...but not much more than you're making now...and, uh, you're going to have to ask for the keys to the car, and try to have it home by 11PM, ok?"
   1611. tshipman Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:37 PM (#4089627)
Maybe championships is too restrictive? We could look at Final Four's instead, and this is where I start to see a clear line. If you have more than 6 Final Four appearances, you're a storied program.


I don't think Ohio State was anyone's idea of a storied program four years ago or whenever Oden was there, so that makes it the exception that proves the rule. I agree that all the other schools in that category seem to fit.
   1612. outl13r Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:40 PM (#4089632)
I don't think Durant has ever been accused of being strong.


I was a) listing what I use to define athleticism and b) comparing him to Gordan Hayward. Durant's listed (yeah yeah I know...) as 6'9 235 and Hayward is 6'8 210. Neither one is exactly Karl Malone in size.
   1613. smileyy Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:42 PM (#4089634)
[1611] Yeah, its not hard and fast -- Arizona, on the flip side, I think has more cred than its one title and 4 Final Fours might indicate, but maybe that's because they've had all of their success while I've been paying attention to college basketball.
   1614. outl13r Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:44 PM (#4089637)
I don't think Ohio State was anyone's idea of a storied program four years ago or whenever Oden was there, so that makes it the exception that proves the rule. I agree that all the other schools in that category seem to fit.


It's likely because the fan base is bat $hit insane* for football, whereas the other programs have little to no CFB tradition.

* - I was born and raised in Columbus, this statement includes most of my friends/family and myself (at a point in time).
   1615. smileyy Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:46 PM (#4089638)
Durant must be the only player in the NBA listed at his barefoot height. Maybe its the same way Kevin Garnett didn't want to be 7' tall? I have a hard time believing that Durant is less than 6'11" in shoes.

Durant has a September birthday, so he was 18 and about 9 months for the pre-draft measurements. I'm sure he had some more grow in him.

Hayward, OTOH, is 6'6.75" barefoot and 6'8" in shoes, when he was measured at age 20 and 3 months.
   1616. smileyy Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:50 PM (#4089641)
[1614] "bat $hit insane* for football", but not in the way that seems to hurt the basketball program, like it does for some SEC schools. Or maybe the South really just doesn't care about basketball the same way the Midwest does, and they're just two independent variables?
   1617. outl13r Posted: March 26, 2012 at 06:58 PM (#4089645)
1616 - The fans are... well they're starting to come around. Last season, OSU didn't have a legit sell out until they were 23-0! It's not as if they came out of nowhere, they were coming off a Sweet Sixteen trip and were never ranked lower than 4th last year. This year was better, but only because Duke and Florida came to town during the non conference schedule AND the FB team wasn't good.
   1618. smileyy Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:02 PM (#4089649)
I'm flabbergasted by successful college basketball programs that don't sell out every game.
   1619. madvillain Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:15 PM (#4089663)
Amare is sideline indefintetly with a bulging disc. Not good.

Rose revealed that his groin "bled pretty good" and that he's just now getting back to running on the treadmill. Jeez. He could be out another 2 weeks at this rate.
   1620. outl13r Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:19 PM (#4089669)
Per ESPN Amare is out 'indefinitely' w/a bulging disk in his low back. Odd quote from Coach Woodson:

"You don't wish it on any player, especially Amare," Woodson said of the back injury


Was he asked "Did you wish this upon him?" Isn't that line usually reserved for opposing team players? Anyway, Lin is also out tonight. Baron and Shump move into the starting lineup.

EDIT: Beverage of choice to madvillain...
   1621. smileyy Posted: March 26, 2012 at 07:27 PM (#4089677)
I'm reading that more as a "This is an injury that will be hard to recover from, and will probably be chronic for the rest of his career". Versus, say, an injury that sidelines a player for a while, but can be completely recuperated.

I didn't need the image of Rose's groin "bleeding pretty good" -- I'm hoping he meant swelling, and not...uh...other things.

Edit: Come to think of it, that'll probably be some lifelong issues Amare will face.
   1622. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: March 26, 2012 at 08:51 PM (#4089720)
I interpret this to mean that Kobe has to dominate the ball, so if that's not what you were intending feel free to disregard. But since they have two of the best big men in the game and (finally) another ball handler capable of getting those two the ball, why does Kobe have to dominate the ball for them to contend?
No, I don't mean that Kobe has to dominate the ball; anyone familiar with my posts will know that that's not what I mean. I'm saying that Kobe's not Ray Allen or Reggie Miller, he's not going to rub off some screens so he can catch-and-shoot. (And really, he's not a good enough shooter for the Lakers to want that.) Just because the Lakers have Sessions now doesn't mean Kobe shouldn't still have the ball a lot. Not all the time, but his ability to create shots still makes a lot of hay, and the Lakers are a better team when the big guys AND Bryant are getting fed.

(This isn't to say that this was why the Lakers lost last night. They just didn't defend last night.)

Maybe my expectations of KD were too high.
I dunno. He seems pretty good to me.
   1623. smileyy Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:20 PM (#4089747)
6'11" Reggie Miller is a really good NBA player. That's probably KD's floor. OTOH, I was surprised that KD's only a career 36% 3P shooter.
   1624. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:33 PM (#4089755)
"Would I sign Kevin Durant if he were freely available? I'd say probably not, I would not sign the guy. It's simply not inevitable that he'll make mid-career strides. Some guys do. But many don't, and he'd have to improve a lot to help a team."

[/memorylane]

I'm gonna trot that particular chestnut out for forevvvvvvver.
   1625. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: March 26, 2012 at 09:40 PM (#4089765)
I knew a poster on the Gator message board I frequent who argued after the 07-08 season that Corey Brewer was just as good a player as Kevin Durant. Because, after all, both had one season in the NBA, and Brewer was a great defensive player who struggled offensively while Durant was a great offensive player who struggled defensively. Therefore, they were on exactly the same level.

Wasn't even one of the idiot posters, either. A smart guy usually.
   1626. steagles Posted: March 26, 2012 at 10:26 PM (#4089810)
I knew a poster on the Gator message board I frequent who argued after the 07-08 season that Corey Brewer was just as good a player as Kevin Durant. Because, after all, both had one season in the NBA, and Brewer was a great defensive player who struggled offensively while Durant was a great offensive player who struggled defensively. Therefore, they were on exactly the same level.

Wasn't even one of the idiot posters, either. A smart guy usually.
in fairness, if you were looking at durant after 07/08, you'd see an inefficient volume scorer who was a weak defender and also way below average from beyond the arc. after 07/08, durant just wasn't that good. it was in each of the next 2 years where durant became one of the best players in the world.

in his 2nd year, durant made a huge jump in FG and 3P percentage, and in his 3rd, he became the most prolific FT shooters in the NBA. that was when durant became durant. before then, he just wasn't all that great.

   1627. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: March 26, 2012 at 10:45 PM (#4089829)
n fairness, if you were looking at durant after 07/08, you'd see an inefficient volume scorer who was a weak defender and also way below average from beyond the arc. after 07/08, durant just wasn't that good. it was in each of the next 2 years where durant became one of the best players in the world.

in his 2nd year, durant made a huge jump in FG and 3P percentage, and in his 3rd, he became the most prolific FT shooters in the NBA. that was when durant became durant. before then, he just wasn't all that great.


Sure. But I probably wouldn't have traded him for Corey Brewer. And I freaking love Corey Brewer.
   1628. rr Posted: March 26, 2012 at 10:46 PM (#4089831)
Boston and Philadelphia are now both 27-22. Winner of the Atlantic is the 4 seed and the loser is the 7 seed, as things stand today.
   1629. Kurt Posted: March 26, 2012 at 10:49 PM (#4089835)
"bat $hit insane* for football", but not in the way that seems to hurt the basketball program, like it does for some SEC schools. Or maybe the South really just doesn't care about basketball the same way the Midwest does, and they're just two independent variables?

Doesn't Ohio State have the largest enrollment of any university? That would seem to matter here.
   1630. I am going to be Frank Posted: March 26, 2012 at 11:21 PM (#4089860)
I know that even during the Fab 5 years Michigan did not sell out all their games. The facilities sucked when I went (just after the Fab 5 years). Michigan has followed OSU in becoming a "corporate" athletic department. There has been a lot of investment and building so schools can compete not just in the B1G but against the SEC.

   1631. outl13r Posted: March 27, 2012 at 01:01 AM (#4089882)
Doesn't Ohio State have the largest enrollment of any university? That would seem to matter here.


According to Wiki, they're third.

UCF is #2? I would have never guessed that.
   1632. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: March 27, 2012 at 01:11 AM (#4089885)
In fairness, if you were looking at durant after 07/08, you'd see an inefficient volume scorer who was a weak defender and also way below average from beyond the arc.
In fairness, if you were looking at Durant after 07/08, you'd see a guy who averaged over 20 points a game in the NBA as a teenager. That guy, probably gonna get better as he got older.
   1633. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: March 27, 2012 at 10:49 AM (#4090050)
Couple of quick thoughts on some of the college/Illinois discussion I missed the last couple of days

Champaign isn't the greatest college town (and I'll concede that my alma mater isn't in a better one). I have no clue on facilities.

I'll agree with a caveat - I think C-U is a pretty good college town for college students, but not for coaches or anyone else. So it's preferable to live in Indy or Richmond, which is what matters to the coach and his family.

UI has a spent of ton of money on the facilities over the last decade or so, but most of it's been on football (Memorial Stadium got renovated, they got an indoor practice facility, they now have the biggest weight room of any Div I school). Basketball has a fairly new practice facility, but Assembly Hall is in dire need of work. It's supposedly the top priority of the new AD (or was, until he fired all the coaches), and improving the facilities for basketball was supposedly part of the offer to Smart/Stevens, but the state and school are broke. The university president just resigned in disgrace last week, so perhaps that's having an impact on what type of guarantees on facilities the coaches are getting.

How much of the talent comes from Chicago, and how much from the rest of the state? If I grew up in Chicago, I'm not sure I'd want to spend 1-4 years in Champaign. Illinois is kind of two different states that way. The void of a major program in Chicago is an interesting wrinkle. DePaul's facilities suck, Northwestern is snobby and smart, and there's not really anything else.

Chicago talent appears to be the biggest issue this go-round. When Kruger was hired, he completely ignored Chicago. Part of that was because Illinois didn't hire Jimmy Collins, a longtime Henson ass't and a favorite of the CPL (Chicago Public League) coaches and part of it was Kruger just wasn't interested in playing the games (not necessarily dirty, but not necessarily clean games - let's just say the coaches expect a lot). Self promised to go after Chicago kids, and Luther Head was the first CPL recruit to UI in years. Weber couldn't recruit Chicago (the suburbs are usually not considered Chicago when talking about recruits, but in Weber's case he couldn't land them either). So over the last decade plus, the majority of UI's talent has come throughout the state (tons from Peoria, but other NBA picks like Brian Cook and now Meyers Leonard are from other podunk areas). And UI has, for the most part, missed out on most of Chicago's top talent (Lute always did well in Illinois when he was at UA - Iggy, Wright, etc; Duke gets someone every couple of years; Self has kept his contacts in Chicago; Calipari has gotten Rose and Davis, etc). If UI were a top destination for the state's talent, UI would be a top school almost every year and that's the perspective the alum/boosters have and want out of the next coach.

I think its more a seller's market now, because for the truly desirable coaches, the pay _has_ become comparable. I think the young coaches are right to want more money and more control within the program. You can't say "Shaka, we need you, here's a bunch of money...but not much more than you're making now...and, uh, you're going to have to ask for the keys to the car, and try to have it home by 11PM, ok?"

Well, like I said before, UI offered both Smart and Stevens 8yrs, $21mil ($2.6mil/yr) and from everything we can find Smart made $1.2mil this year and Stevens $1.1mil. Both got extensions last year, and I haven't heard either of them getting more money from their current schools yet as a result of the UI offers. I think that qualifies as better than "not much more" in both cases.

I don't think Ohio State was anyone's idea of a storied program four years ago or whenever Oden was there, so that makes it the exception that proves the rule. I agree that all the other schools in that category seem to fit.

It's more than just FF and championships, I think. It's consistently being good. OSU has had a lot of down periods (and is a football school, so that might play into it as well). Combine OSU's postseason success with Illinois' regular season success (13th in all time wins and 10th in winning percentage with almost no extended downturns) and you've got an elite program.

---

It appears John Groce is going to say yes to UI, finally landing us a coach. He might turn out to be a good hire, but unfortunately for him he's seen as a 3rd choice at best and has an uphill battle to win over everyone. Unlike Smart and Stevens, he has a background in recruiting at a high major (as a Matta ass't at OSU) - fair or not, recruiting still was going to be a question at UI for Smart/Stevens. He's turned the program at Ohio around; although his overall record isn't that impressive he's getting the job based on his 2 tourney runs.
   1634. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: March 27, 2012 at 11:03 AM (#4090073)
As for the Bulls, they didn't lose last night at home to Denver (in a rout) because Rose was out. The defense was once again terrible (it was also terrible against Toronto on Saturday, and the Bulls were lucky to win). Last night was one of those nights that make you think Denver maybe could contend - everything was working for them. I know they've been ravaged by injuries all year, but they're a fun team to watch when they're on. Also, it was funny to see Lawson tower over Lucas.
   1635. Jimmy P Posted: March 27, 2012 at 11:26 AM (#4090113)
Wow, Frank Martin is leaving K-State for USC. That's the University of South Carolina.
   1636. smileyy Posted: March 27, 2012 at 11:34 AM (#4090128)
K State needed Martin more than he needed them. I sense he was unhappy and wanted a change. I think he has enough coaching cred to survive even a bad run at South Carolina.
   1637. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: March 27, 2012 at 11:40 AM (#4090138)
I'd much rather live in Columbia, SC than Manhattan, KS. UI didn't show any interest in him, I wonder why not.
   1638. Jimmy P Posted: March 27, 2012 at 11:50 AM (#4090163)
UI didn't show any interest in him, I wonder why not.

Probably didn't think he was available, or didn't want his "style." And by style, I mean the glaring, yelling, and swearing.

   1639. smileyy Posted: March 27, 2012 at 11:55 AM (#4090171)
He may not have been interested. He expressed an interest in being closer to his native Florida. But that could also be spin.
   1640. jmurph Posted: March 27, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4090199)
Probably didn't think he was available, or didn't want his "style." And by style, I mean the glaring, yelling, and swearing.


He seems like an absolute lunatic (based exclusively on his sideline demeanor). As in, I wouldn't think twice if I read "Frank Martin goes on 6 state killing spree" in the news tomorrow.
   1641. SouthSideRyan Posted: March 27, 2012 at 12:26 PM (#4090229)
Yeah, Thomas didn't want to be an accessory to murder.

Want to clarify a couple points from your post upthread Moses. Illinois's DIA is completely self-sufficient, and it's something absurd like 6th most profitable(or highest revenue, can't remember) in the country. The money is there for coaches and facility upgrades (especially when considering boosters supposedly throwing gobs of cash to pay to get Weber out)

Self said he'd go for Chicago, but really Head was the only guy of substance he landed (I think Spears may've been from there too?), and Head was supposedly a backup plan, and was outside the top 100 nationally.

Weber got Brock right off the bat, and then nothing of substance until Henry. (I believe Simpson was the only other CPL)

I think you overstate Duke's case as well, the only guy they went head to head with Illinois on in the past 10 years or so was Scheyer. As for Cal landing Davis and Rose, well there wasn't really anything Illinois can do about those situations.
   1642. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: March 27, 2012 at 12:29 PM (#4090236)
As screwed up a fellow as Martin appears to be, he's a fine coach and recruiter. He'll bring some talent to USC(e) and he'll get them to play ferocious defense. The Gamecocks are never going to get on the level of Florida or Vanderbilt, let alone Kentucky, but Martin can make them a massive pain in the ass and perennial upset puller.
   1643. jmurph Posted: March 27, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4090245)
As screwed up a fellow as Martin appears to be, he's a fine coach and recruiter.


Oh I'm sure he's a great coach and could also be a fine human being. I'm just saying he's almost certainly going to commit mass murder some day. No big deal.
   1644. Jimmy P Posted: March 27, 2012 at 12:57 PM (#4090263)
After UNC lost, there's been no shortage of articles being down on Harrison Barnes. Guess coming back to school wasn't the best choice. I feel the same about Sullinger. Sure, he hasn't hurt his stock, but he's done nothing to change any opinions either. All he did was play a year for free and enter a better draft class.

I'm interested to see if Cody Zeller and Kidd-Gilchrist make the same mistake. Kidd-Gilchrist has to be kidding himself, he's been one of the best players the entire tourney.
   1645. smileyy Posted: March 27, 2012 at 01:01 PM (#4090271)
I'm just saying he's almost certainly going to commit mass murder some day. No big deal.


Yeah, but who among us isn't?
   1646. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: March 27, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4090272)
Want to clarify a couple points from your post upthread Moses. Illinois's DIA is completely self-sufficient, and it's something absurd like 6th most profitable(or highest revenue, can't remember) in the country. The money is there for coaches and facility upgrades (especially when considering boosters supposedly throwing gobs of cash to pay to get Weber out)

The DIA isn't going to pay for redo-ing Assembly Hall and doesn't have *that* much money. They're going to need other money, and there just isn't any at the moment. It was supposed to be Guenther's last thing, and even though he pushed his retirement off he never really got that project off the ground.

Self said he'd go for Chicago, but really Head was the only guy of substance he landed (I think Spears may've been from there too?), and Head was supposedly a backup plan, and was outside the top 100 nationally.

He was only there for 3 years, and it was going to take time to repair the relationships wit the CPL and he didn't have any existing contacts when he was hired. The fact that Sherron Collins blindly followed him to Lawrence shows he probably would have gotten there eventually. If Head was an afterthought (my recollection is that he wasn't and that he was closer to 50 than outside the top 100), what was Brock (late bloomer, signed way late)?

I think you overstate Duke's case as well, the only guy they went head to head with Illinois on in the past 10 years or so was Scheyer. As for Cal landing Davis and Rose, well there wasn't really anything Illinois can do about those situations.

My point is more about the "lock up the state" cry you hear from parts of the alumni and that you don't have to be a national recruiter to run an elite program at Illinois. Coach K is from here, comes back regularly and actively recruits the area (Collins is also from here; that's why we got articles at the Trib with him lobbying for the UI and NU jobs). Beyond Scheyer, he's also gotten Dockery and Maggette, I'm sure I'm forgetting others.
   1647. SouthSideRyan Posted: March 27, 2012 at 01:26 PM (#4090299)
Michael Thompson, but he had as good a college career as I did, and was the first time I realized MCDAAs weren't necessarily the best in their class. He was garbage in high school.
   1648. smileyy Posted: March 27, 2012 at 01:37 PM (#4090307)
Michael Thompson, but he had as good a college career as I did, and was the first time I realized MCDAAs weren't necessarily the best in their class.


I've heard criticism that McDonald's All-Americans have a lot of tail-wagging-the-dog going on with them -- that the decisions are influenced by who is recruiting the player.
   1649. Jimmy P Posted: March 27, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4090324)
I've heard criticism that McDonald's All-Americans have a lot of tail-wagging-the-dog going on with them -- that the decisions are influenced by who is recruiting the player.

Very much so. Look at some of the past teams and the guys who did nothing (Eric Boateng?).
   1650. Quaker Posted: March 27, 2012 at 01:57 PM (#4090344)
Wasn't Daniel Ewing from Chicago?
   1651. SouthSideRyan Posted: March 27, 2012 at 02:13 PM (#4090365)
Nope.
   1652. kpelton Posted: March 27, 2012 at 03:18 PM (#4090451)
In fairness, if you were looking at Durant after 07/08, you'd see a guy who averaged over 20 points a game in the NBA as a teenager. That guy, probably gonna get better as he got older.

Also one of the best seasons ever by a freshman in college. That was a pretty key data point.
   1653. smileyy Posted: March 27, 2012 at 03:35 PM (#4090464)
It was pretty impressive how the Big 12 spat out guys like Michael Beasley, then Durant, then Blake Griffin (I realize Griffin was a sophomore). One of those three is not like the others.
   1654. Famous Original Joe C Posted: March 27, 2012 at 03:40 PM (#4090472)
Also one of the best seasons ever by a freshman in college. That was a pretty key data point.

Seriously - 26 and 11, 2 blocks, 2 steals, 47/40/82 percentages.

Plus 07-08 - he was 19, playing with Wally Sczerbiak and Chris Wilcox as his best teammates on a 20 win team.
   1655. Jimmy P Posted: March 27, 2012 at 03:58 PM (#4090488)
Seriously - 26 and 11, 2 blocks, 2 steals, 47/40/82 percentages.


How did they not get out of the second round?
   1656. jmurph Posted: March 27, 2012 at 04:18 PM (#4090509)
How did they not get out of the second round?


Allow me to introduce you to Rick Barnes, who appears to be a bumbling fool.
   1657. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: March 27, 2012 at 04:30 PM (#4090522)
All he did was play a year for free and enter a better draft class.


To be fair, if he thinks he's gonna make it to the second contract, the one that gets you real money, the difference in draft money is not a huge deal. And he also made it so that he'll get a full training camp and regular practices his rookie season, which certainly can't hurt his development. If, on the other hand, he want back to school to raise his draft stock, that's a kind of dumb move.
   1658. just plain joe Posted: March 27, 2012 at 04:32 PM (#4090524)
I'd much rather live in Columbia, SC than Manhattan, KS. UI didn't show any interest in him, I wonder why not.


Manhattan must be a dump then (I've never been there). My nephew is going to grad school in Columbia this year courtesy of the US Navy and he and his family can't wait to leave. From what he and his wife have said Columbia compares unfavorably with the Norfolk/Newport News/Virginia Beach area, which is basically a gigantic military base. I'm sure that everyone's experience is different but they are looking forward to spending the next three years at Naval Station Great Lakes as the antidote to nine months in Columbia.
   1659. I am going to be Frank Posted: March 27, 2012 at 04:40 PM (#4090540)
Is U-C any worse than West Lafayette, East Lansing, Bloomington or State College?
   1660. smileyy Posted: March 27, 2012 at 04:40 PM (#4090541)
Manhattan is in the middle of Kansas, and has 50,000 people in it. Its 2 hours to Kansas City and 2+ hours to Wichita. I get the impression that there's really....nothing....in Manhattan, other than K. State.
   1661. Jimmy P Posted: March 27, 2012 at 04:41 PM (#4090544)
Manhattan must be a dump then (I've never been there).

How much you like small towns? It's small, out in the middle of nowhere, and oh yeah, the weather sucks ass. I didn't go to school there, but I went to a school that's pretty much in the same exact thing.
   1662. Jimmy P Posted: March 27, 2012 at 04:44 PM (#4090548)
Is U-C any worse than West Lafayette, East Lansing, Bloomington or State College?


No, probably not. Bloomington's probably got the most going out of all of those. Fun town, not too far from Indy. State College is nice and picturesque, but it's also tiny and in the middle of nowhere. Hours from anything.
   1663. andrewberg Posted: March 27, 2012 at 04:45 PM (#4090550)
After UNC lost, there's been no shortage of articles being down on Harrison Barnes. Guess coming back to school wasn't the best choice. I feel the same about Sullinger. Sure, he hasn't hurt his stock, but he's done nothing to change any opinions either. All he did was play a year for free and enter a better draft class.


If Sullinger wins a title, returning will have been worth it in my mind. Barnes may have been thinking the same thing, and they were in good shape until Marshall got hurt.

Is U-C any worse than West Lafayette, East Lansing, Bloomington or State College?


I will ask again why anyone chooses to go to school anywhere other than Austin or LA? Oh yeah, because we pick when we're 17 and we don't know ####.
   1664. steagles Posted: March 27, 2012 at 04:49 PM (#4090555)
All he did was play a year for free and enter a better draft class.
there was also a chance that there wouldn't even be a season this year, and then, instead of playing a year for free, he just wouldn't be playing at all.
   1665. Jimmy P Posted: March 27, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4090574)
I will ask again why anyone chooses to go to school anywhere other than Austin or LA? Oh yeah, because we pick when we're 17 and we don't know ####.


San Diego. Have you ever seen where Pepperdine is?
   1666. andrewberg Posted: March 27, 2012 at 05:07 PM (#4090587)
San Diego. Have you ever seen where Pepperdine is?


I was recruited to debate at Pepperdine, then I shied away from their aggressive religious mandates.
   1667. billyshears Posted: March 27, 2012 at 05:22 PM (#4090598)
I will ask again why anyone chooses to go to school anywhere other than Austin or LA?


That's not fair. I can see viable arguments for various schools in Virginia or Arizona, University of Miami or Standford. Maybe Boulder as well, if that's your cup of tea.
   1668. smileyy Posted: March 27, 2012 at 05:35 PM (#4090619)
Well, yes. But then there's Manhattan, KS. Or the rural outskirts of Cleveland.
   1669. nick swisher hygiene Posted: March 27, 2012 at 05:39 PM (#4090623)
####, NYU has 45000 undergraduates and a Washington Square campus, how can they not be a ####### hoops powerhouse?
   1670. andrewberg Posted: March 27, 2012 at 05:45 PM (#4090631)
####, NYU has 45000 undergraduates and a Washington Square campus, how can they not be a ####### hoops powerhouse?


The list of filmmakers in the NBA includes: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Baron Davis, and nobody.
   1671. nick swisher hygiene Posted: March 27, 2012 at 06:01 PM (#4090648)
1670--if Spike Lee just wrote a big enough check they'd be a major conference power in no time!
   1672. Jimmy P Posted: March 27, 2012 at 06:11 PM (#4090656)
Simmons is tweeting that everyone in the Clippers org was ready to let Del Negro go Friday except Sterling. And that everyone realizes Vinny's done, but Sterling won't let them end it. Robert Pack is the interim when the Clippers finally do it he says.
   1673. andrewberg Posted: March 27, 2012 at 06:17 PM (#4090659)
1670--if Spike Lee just wrote a big enough check they'd be a major conference power in no time!


They can join my vision of an all-hoops Big East that includes Georgetown, Marquette, Villanova, St Joes, St Johns, NYU, GWU, George Mason, Umass, Seton Hall, Butler, Notre Dame, Depaul, Providence, Memphis, and whoever else doesn't want to compete in football.
   1674. smileyy Posted: March 27, 2012 at 06:56 PM (#4090687)
Uhh...Memphis plays football. So does UMass (I think they play in the MAC). Oh. Notre Dame is on that list. I see what you did there.
   1675. andrewberg Posted: March 27, 2012 at 07:11 PM (#4090695)
Uhh...Memphis plays football. So does UMass (I think they play in the MAC). Oh. Notre Dame is on that list. I see what you did there.


Not trying to be a smartass. Memphis and UMass have football teams, but they haven't been nationally competitive in my lifetime, if ever (Deangelo Williams notwithstanding). As far as conference affiliations go, Notre Dame might as well not have a football team because it doesn't seem like they are moving in that direction.
   1676. smileyy Posted: March 27, 2012 at 07:22 PM (#4090701)
Ah, ok. It was funnier my way. Wikipedia tell me that Memphis went to some lower-tier bowls in the 00's. So probably -Memphis and +Xavier, and my personal bias wants to cut DePaul for being terribad. I guess Providence has to beat someone.
   1677. steagles Posted: March 27, 2012 at 11:29 PM (#4090813)
the sixers won by 18 tonight, but i still can't say they played well. they shot just 5 FTs for the game, made only 3 of them, and though they got 31 points from jodie meeks, he was only in the game because andre iguodala wasn't in a uniform.


i'm not feeling especially confident right now.
   1678. tshipman Posted: March 27, 2012 at 11:43 PM (#4090822)
Simmons is tweeting that everyone in the Clippers org was ready to let Del Negro go Friday except Sterling. And that everyone realizes Vinny's done, but Sterling won't let them end it. Robert Pack is the interim when the Clippers finally do it he says.


I feel really, really good about my prediction from the beginning of the year that VDN was going to royally mess up this season for the Clippers.

I have been wrong about a fair number of things on this thread, but I am pretty happy with that and Jimmer.
   1679. Tripon Posted: March 27, 2012 at 11:44 PM (#4090824)
In slightly related NBA news, Magic Johnson just bought the Dodgers. In other news, Matt Kemp was just traded to the Lakers for Devin Ebanks, and Troy Murphy.
   1680. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: March 28, 2012 at 07:16 AM (#4090934)
Laker fans, thoughts on the Bynum/Brown/Kobe 3-point gate?
   1681. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: March 28, 2012 at 07:56 AM (#4090960)
####, NYU has 45000 undergraduates and a Washington Square campus, how can they not be a ####### hoops powerhouse?


There is an inverse relationship between the number of improv groups in a college and the quality of its basketball program.
   1682. GregD Posted: March 28, 2012 at 09:47 AM (#4091067)
Point-shaving basically killed two great programs of the 1940s and 1950s--CCNY and NYU--and put two others--LIU and Manhattan--on serious ice for decades.
   1683. tshipman Posted: March 28, 2012 at 10:39 AM (#4091123)
Laker fans, thoughts on the Bynum/Brown/Kobe 3-point gate?


Mike Brown is an incompetent who cannot run either an offense or handle large personalities.

The team misses Phil's wisdom badly.
   1684. Jimmy P Posted: March 28, 2012 at 11:10 AM (#4091158)
Laker fans, thoughts on the Bynum/Brown/Kobe 3-point gate?


Non-Laker fan. Gotta side with the coach, though. Bynum shouldn't be taking threes. Ever. His justification is that he made one over the weekend so he's going to take more? Sounds like Antoine Walker disease.
   1685. billyshears Posted: March 28, 2012 at 11:16 AM (#4091164)
####, NYU has 45000 undergraduates and a Washington Square campus, how can they not be a ####### hoops powerhouse?


The undergrad population is actually about half that. Which was actually bigger than I thought and I basically across the street from the campus. But then again, they do own just about every building in the village.
   1686. AROM Posted: March 28, 2012 at 11:37 AM (#4091181)
Laker fans, thoughts on the Bynum/Brown/Kobe 3-point gate?


I think at this point Kobe should be a player/coach. I mentioned that idea before the season and from what I've seen this year I'm convinced it is the best solution in this situation unless Phil Jackson decides to come back.
   1687. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: March 28, 2012 at 11:58 AM (#4091208)
I really don't enjoy talking about UI basketball this much, but this situation is such a mess. It's starting to become more obvious why Smart and Stevens passed, and why it might have been good for them both that they did.

Some backstory. When UI hired Tim Beckman for the football head job earlier this year, 2 of the trustess publicly voted against his hiring. They said UI needed to hire a minority coach (UI has never had a minority head coach in football or basketball). Because it was so public, Smart was the clear #1 choice over Stevens. All along, the various papers have also said UI reached out to other minority coaches like Leonard Hamilton, Craig Robinson and Lorenzo Romar. Supposedly, it's also why Reggie Theus's name keeps coming up - one of the trustees wants him to be hired. That brings us to yesterday. The AD was all set to fly to Ohio to pick up John Groce and a press conference was scheduled (although this is now officially denied), but the trustee somehow either overruled or delayed everything, and so the deal with Groce is still not final or official. And UI might still end up with Theus if this guy has his way. What a f'in joke and disgrace.
   1688. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: March 28, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4091290)
Mike Brown is an incompetent who cannot run either an offense or handle large personalities.
I think at this point Kobe should be a player/coach.
Yes, and I think Bryant's basically doing that at this point for the offense.
   1689. smileyy Posted: March 28, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4091291)
How has the AD not resigned?

I...don't think anybody really wants Hamilton, Robinson or Romar. This sounds very half-assed.
   1690. jmurph Posted: March 28, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4091312)
I...don't think anybody really wants Hamilton, Robinson or Romar.


I would guess no one wants the former star of NBC's Hang Time, either, but I could be wrong.
   1691. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: March 28, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4091313)
How has the AD not resigned?

He was just hired last year (he came from Cincinnati). I wouldn't be shocked if he left sometime soon, just because this is too much to deal with. I doubt he's seriously interested in any of those guys, but the trustees seem to be pushing them onto to him and everyone is leaking everything.
   1692. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: March 28, 2012 at 01:15 PM (#4091315)
I would guess no one wants the former star of NBC's Hang Time, either, but I could be wrong.

According to the Trib, he's "waiting in the wings" if the Groce deals falls through. He's publicly campaigned for the job, after trying and failing for USC (the Cali one) and DePaul. I mean, ####### DePaul wanted nothing to do with him.
   1693. I am going to be Frank Posted: March 28, 2012 at 01:19 PM (#4091323)
That's not fair. I can see viable arguments for various schools in Virginia or Arizona, University of Miami or Standford. Maybe Boulder as well, if that's your cup of tea.


Whenever anyone asks for college advice I say, "go somewhere warm." One of the few things I'll agree 100% with Bill Simmons on. If I had to do it all over again I would have went to UT or UCSD. Good academic schools in nice, warm places. It really was too bad for me that I was such a slacker and didn't have the credentials to get into Stanford. I can't believe I applied (and got in) to Illinois - there was no way I was ever going to go there.
   1694. Jimmy P Posted: March 28, 2012 at 01:32 PM (#4091350)
I...don't think anybody really wants Hamilton, Robinson or Romar. This sounds very half-assed.


Romar wouldn't be easy. He's pretty stable, and he's an alum of UW. It's not like he's got awesome ties to Chicago, either.

At this point, Oregon St would probably let you have Craig Robinson. His name and it's cache provides the most value.

This sucks, Moses. I'm sorry.

Whenever anyone asks for college advice I say, "go somewhere warm."

Unfortunately, my financial situation necessitated a state school. While my state school was awesome for my field of study and career, Indiana has crappy weather.
   1695. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: March 28, 2012 at 01:34 PM (#4091358)
Now the message boards are saying that Ohio is trying to come up with a new offer to keep Groce, and that KSU is sniffing around on him. So does that mean the BoT won out and is blocking the AD from hiring him or did they just lowball Groce (and really, almost anything short of the Smart/Stevens offer might seem lowball and there's no way he's getting that offer)?

---

So Lebron says he did dislocate his finger, but Spoelstra says he didn't. Who's lying and why?
   1696. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: March 28, 2012 at 01:35 PM (#4091359)
Leonard Hamilton at Illinois would be amusing, if only because Illinois fans have spent the last several years growing increasingly aghast at Weber's incompetent offenses. Hamilton has done some reasonably OK work at FSU, but all under a pretty strict formula: he recruits impressive athletes (tall, "long," fast, leapers) who play ferocious defense but have serious issues with "shooting" and "dribbling."

NOTE: comments are made without examining pace-adjusted statistics. I'm sure they'll tell me I'm wrong.
   1697. Jimmy P Posted: March 28, 2012 at 01:37 PM (#4091364)
Now the message boards are saying that Ohio is trying to come up with a new offer to keep Groce, and that KSU is sniffing around on him. So does that mean the BoT won out and is blocking the AD from hiring him or did they just lowball Groce

I think the other schools see he's available and are jumping on him. It's big business, got to jump when you can
   1698. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: March 28, 2012 at 01:40 PM (#4091368)
NOTE: comments are made without examining pace-adjusted statistics. I'm sure they'll tell me I'm wrong.

Per Kempom.com, 75th in O this year, 134th last year, 130th year before that...

   1699. andrewberg Posted: March 28, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4091379)
NOTE: comments are made without examining pace-adjusted statistics. I'm sure they'll tell me I'm wrong.


Any stats that disagree with your very reasonable assertion that FSU's offense is sub-optimal would be highly questionable stats.

   1700. outl13r Posted: March 28, 2012 at 01:48 PM (#4091382)
So Lebron says he did dislocate his finger, but Spoelstra says he didn't. Who's lying and why?


Allegedly it's his ring finger. I don't see what the big deal is, it's not like he was using it anyway.
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