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Saturday, March 03, 2012

OT: NBA Monthly Thread, March 2012

I estimate that there may be more than 10-12 Primates who want to talk about the inevitable blacklash against Linsanity, and with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: Ryan Braun Urine, Players Being in the Best Shape of Their Lives, and what Eric Chavez thinks about the Moneyball movie.

Tripon Posted: March 03, 2012 at 08:39 AM | 1861 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1701. smileyy Posted: March 28, 2012 at 02:09 PM (#4091397)
Craig Robinson, the guy who went 7-11 in a dreadful Pac-10. OTOH, he could bring plenty of CBI banners to Assembly Hall. And he beat UIC and Chicago St. this year.
   1702. SouthSideRyan Posted: March 28, 2012 at 02:30 PM (#4091412)
Robinson wasn't part of the initial AA candidates Thomas supposedly reached out to. Those wer Anthony Grant, Romar, and Hamilton. YMMV on whether Thomas was legit in his appeal to these 3 (Grant had an assistant on staff on that Thomas fired at Akron, Romar is a UW alum, and Hamilton is 97 years old.

The jackass trustee went public to call Groce 2nd tier and say he had forwarded on a resume from the "Oregon State coach" who he thinks would be a better fit. It's a joke.
   1703. madvillain Posted: March 28, 2012 at 02:42 PM (#4091423)
Seems like Rip Hamilton is going to return in some form tonight against the Hawks, so that's good. Rose is actually "running on the court" now according to Thibs and is participating in shootarounds. However, he hasn't gone through a full practice and is out tonight.

Chicago is 12-5 sans rose and 28-6 with him. They're a good team without him; they're an elite team with him. I guess that was never really in doubt.

_____________

As a Michigan fan who went through the whole "Les Miles is ready to sign on the dotted line but the AD is on sailing trip and doesn't have his cell phone turned on" I feel for Illinois fans. Sometimes highly paid, supposedly smart people do incompetent things.
   1704. smileyy Posted: March 28, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4091427)
There's not that many games left in the season, are there? If I'm Chicago, my #1 priority is a 100% healthy Rose for the playoffs.
   1705. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: March 28, 2012 at 02:49 PM (#4091429)
SSR, that's right. I mistyped when I had Robinson instead of Grant (who is an actual decent candidate, but probably wasn't going to be interested in being the 2nd choice to his successor at VCU). The trustee's rec of Robinson and Theus are so laughably bad, it shows what a sham this whole thing is.

---

Yes, they need Rose up to speed and in game shape. If he's not 100%, it's not worth rushing him back too soon and causing it to linger longer than necessary. Same is also true of Rip, but he does need to be on the court more now than learning in the playoffs.
   1706. smileyy Posted: March 28, 2012 at 04:10 PM (#4091548)
Grant has a nice contract at Alabama -- a little under $2M or salary + perks if I'm reading this right:
http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/article/20090327/NEWS/903279935/1007?p=2&tc=pg
   1707. rr Posted: March 28, 2012 at 06:02 PM (#4091681)
Laker fans, thoughts on the Bynum/Brown/Kobe 3-point gate?


I try to be reticent about team dynamics issues; what I am seeing in the Lakerblogoshere today is a lot of long-distance psychoanalysis. Bryant talked at length with Kevin Ding about it:

http://www.ocregister.com/sports/bryant-346596-bynum-game.html

That noted, my own WAGs/asspulls about the issues:

1. Bynum is a pretty smart guy and has worked hard on his game and on his many rehabs. But he has spent ages 18-24 in the Laker/NBA Bubble and has an entitled, immature side to his personality that we have seen many times: the dirty shots at Barea and Beasley, the Playboy Playmate thing, parking in the handicapped zones. This game was another example.
2. ISTM that Mike Brown does not have the presence of mind or force of personality to establish the flow of mutual respect between players and coaches that successful teams usually have. It may not actually BE that way--but it seems like it. A guy on a blog had a funny line about Brown: "He doesn't seem like an NBA coach. He seems like a sitcom dad playing an NBA coach."

In fairness to Brown, 31-19 is certainly a reasonable record for the Lakers, given their talent base, noting that they have been quite fortunate with injuries this year. And, yes, Kobe is still a very formidable player, they have the two bigs, and now they have a competent PG. But even with those plusses, Brown's job this year would not be easy for any coach. Still, he seems to impress no one other than Jim Buss.

For me, though, it always goes back to the game on the floor. The Lakers have struggled on D lately, particularly in the 4th quarter. A Lakers fan posted this at a blog yesterday:

Minnesota 31 pts. 10-23 FG

Utah 28 pts 9-18 FG

Houston 34 pts 11-21 FG

Dallas 21 pts 6-19 FG

Portland 26 pts 9-19 FG

Memphis 29 pts 12-18 FG

Warriors 29 pts 12-21 FG
____________

Part of this is the depth in the West, part of it is the Lakers being slow, but I also think part of it may be Brown riding his horses too hard and not being able to get them to fight through it late. And Bynum has not played well on D at all recently--and they need him to.
   1708. Jimmy P Posted: March 28, 2012 at 06:31 PM (#4091711)
ESPN and Hollinger are saying Rip Hamilton is not playing tonight.
   1709. rr Posted: March 28, 2012 at 07:30 PM (#4091769)
Novak!
   1710. smileyy Posted: March 28, 2012 at 08:02 PM (#4091791)
I was under the impression that one of the Lakers' advantages was being able to have the length of Bynum and Gasol on the floor at the same time, making it hard for teams to score at the rim. I realize Odom contributed to a lot of that game-changing length. But if Bynum isn't giving you what you need at the defensive end, he loses a bit of that "untouchable" luster, IMO.
   1711. smileyy Posted: March 28, 2012 at 08:17 PM (#4091800)
Basketbawful on Bynum's 3:

I made one. So I wanted to make another. I'm a 7-footer who makes 1 out of every 8 three pointers I attempt. But I wanted to make another.


In his defense, he'll never get to 2/9 without shooting another 3. He's at 12.5% now. 2/9 would be 22% and 1/9 would only be 11%! He has so much to gain and so little to lose by shooting another 3!
   1712. rr Posted: March 28, 2012 at 08:23 PM (#4091802)
Bynum and Pau are both slow, so they have trouble with guys like Millsap, Landry, etc. They don't box out that well; the Lakers are 21st in opp OREB, and lately, they have been slow on rotations. As I have said several times, Odom's face-up game complemented either of them better than they complement each other. The Lakers' numbers with Bynum, Gasol, and Bryant together are not that impressive. They are 11th in DRTG.

Bynum, however, remains a good defensive anchor, in the big picture.

As far as the "untouchable luster" line, that is badly outdated. In the early summer of 2011, that line went around the net, but Buss to my knowledge was never quoted directly as saying it. Here is Buss from ESPN Radio four days ago:

"One thing I haven't thought of is Kobe being somewhere else," he told the station. "I don't know why that question has ever come up and I'd like to squish that one."

Buss, the son of owner Jerry Buss, also indicated Bryant could play beyond his two-year contract and chase more than his sixth NBA championship.

"I'm not sure I would stop there for Kobe; I would go to seven or eight if we can," Buss told the station. "… I think Kobe is going to be a Laker for life and I'm pretty sure he's not going to hang them up after two years."

Jim Buss said such untouchable status did not apply, though, to center Andrew Bynum, despite rumors that his connection to him would keep Bynum from getting traded.

"It's OK to attach my name to Andrew Bynum because I think he's a perennial All-Star, that's OK with me, but to say that I wouldn't trade him?" Buss said. "That's just unfounded."

   1713. smileyy Posted: March 28, 2012 at 08:37 PM (#4091815)
I'm somewhat intrigued by the mystery of whether Lamar Odom would have blown up as badly in LA as he has in Dallas.
   1714. rr Posted: March 28, 2012 at 08:41 PM (#4091821)
76-49.
   1715. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: March 28, 2012 at 09:14 PM (#4091857)
When did Kevin Love become Wilt Chamberlain? This run he's on is nuts.
   1716. rr Posted: March 28, 2012 at 09:22 PM (#4091868)
I'm somewhat intrigued by the mystery of whether Lamar Odom would have blown up as badly in LA as he has in Dallas.


I don't think so, but I am very biased. I think Bryant, Fisher and TAFKARA could have brought him around a little. Odom is out of shape physically, as well, though. But the downgrade from 2011 Odom to 2012 Murphy and McRob is obviously huge. Bynum, Gasol and Bryant have pretty much done as as much as they can to take up the slack, but it is a huge gap.

How about this: Phil replaces Vinny D and the 2013 Clippers bring in Odom as a bench player, Fisher as an assistant coach, and hire Jeannie Buss, ;-
   1717. JC in DC Posted: March 28, 2012 at 09:31 PM (#4091879)
Huge game from Shumpert. I love this guy.
   1718. steagles Posted: March 28, 2012 at 10:36 PM (#4091942)
I'm somewhat intrigued by the mystery of whether Lamar Odom would have blown up as badly in LA as he has in Dallas.


I don't think so, but I am very biased. I think Bryant, Fisher and TAFKARA could have brought him around a little. Odom is out of shape physically, as well, though. But the downgrade from 2011 Odom to 2012 Murphy and McRob is obviously huge. Bynum, Gasol and Bryant have pretty much done as as much as they can to take up the slack, but it is a huge gap.
i think they knew full well that he was in for a major decline. i'm not as close to this as you are, but i don't think there's any chance that the lakers would have traded odom if they didn't know he was out of shape, distracted, and/or disinterested. last year was kind of a career year for him, so there was likely to be some decline anyway, but i think was a textbook case of the lakers knowing more about odom than anyone else on the outside possibly could.
   1719. rr Posted: March 29, 2012 at 12:04 AM (#4091995)
Odom's 3p% was an outlier last year, but his other numbers were pretty Odomish. He dealt with yet another tragedy in his life over the off-season, and there were rumors he was out of shape as early as August.

Obviously, the Paul deal would have been good for the Lakers, but OTOH:

1. They may not use the TPE. I would bet they don't, actually, and buying out Odom = more cap space for Cuban.
2. Murphy and McRob pretty much suck.


Jordan Hill supposedly has an MCL issue, so perhaps I have been too hard on Brown for not getting him a little run.
   1720. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: March 29, 2012 at 06:28 AM (#4092055)
Carmelo Anthony: great player or the greatest player?
   1721. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: March 29, 2012 at 09:20 AM (#4092114)
MettaWorldPeace: If I was mike brown I would bench Metta world peace and bring in Ron Artest

MettaWorldPeace: If I was mike brown I would bench Ron artest and cut Metta world peace

MettaWorldPeace: If I was mike brown all my play calls would be dances
   1722. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: March 29, 2012 at 09:23 AM (#4092117)
When did Kevin Love become Wilt Chamberlain? This run he's on is nuts.

But he's not worth the max...
   1723. Chicago Joe Posted: March 29, 2012 at 09:43 AM (#4092130)
Well, it's Groce. Seems like a pretty good hire from a basketball perspective.
   1724. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: March 29, 2012 at 09:51 AM (#4092140)
Well, it's Groce. Seems like a pretty good hire from a basketball perspective.

In a vacuum, I'm perfectly happy with it. He's recruited in the Big10 before, he's young and energetic, he's done well in the tourney; lots of reasons to believe he'll be successful. Had he been the main target from the beginning, I'm sure there would still be factions saying he wasn't a big enough name or wasn't a home run hire, but because of everything that's happened it's going to take a lot of work from him and Thomas to sell him to everyone. So that just makes the job harder than it needs to be. Thomas really hasn't covered himself in glory since he's started, so hopefully for his sake all of his hires turn out to be great.
   1725. Chicago Joe Posted: March 29, 2012 at 10:19 AM (#4092177)
In a vacuum, I'm perfectly happy with it. He's recruited in the Big10 before, he's young and energetic, he's done well in the tourney; lots of reasons to believe he'll be successful. Had he been the main target from the beginning, I'm sure there would still be factions saying he wasn't a big enough name or wasn't a home run hire, but because of everything that's happened it's going to take a lot of work from him and Thomas to sell him to everyone. So that just makes the job harder than it needs to be. Thomas really hasn't covered himself in glory since he's started, so hopefully for his sake all of his hires turn out to be great.


Unsure as to who he could have gotten that would be better. There's no obvious Mike Leach on the basketball side.
   1726. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: March 29, 2012 at 10:28 AM (#4092190)
Unsure as to who he could have gotten that would be better. There's no obvious Mike Leach on the basketball side.

Well, that's the thing though - perception vs reality. Were Smart or Stevens better options? And the 'could have gotten part' counts too, since those were pretty public failings. Beckman was at best the 2nd choice to Sumlin, and now Groce is at best the 3rd choice (the Chicago papers keep counting the 3 guys from 1702 as other picks that turned the job down even though they didn't get offers).
   1727. tshipman Posted: March 29, 2012 at 10:59 AM (#4092235)
Oh, Ron Artest. You lovable rapscallion.
   1728. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 29, 2012 at 11:07 AM (#4092242)
Who zapped the Sweeney thread without any explanation?
   1729. rr Posted: March 29, 2012 at 11:11 AM (#4092251)
Who zapped the Sweeney thread without any explanation?

Furtado showed up and announced he was closing it. He said it had gone too far afield and he didh't like the "writing for the slow ones" line (don't know who posted that).
   1730. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: March 29, 2012 at 11:17 AM (#4092259)
WTF does that have to do with the NBA thread, Andy? Keep that out of here.
   1731. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 29, 2012 at 11:18 AM (#4092262)
Furtado showed up and announced he was closing it. He said it had gone too far afield and he didh't like the "writing for the slow ones" line (don't know who posted that).

He didn't "close" the thread. He zapped it. There's a big difference between the two. "Closing" a thread means announcing that "this thread is closed to further comments". It doesn't mean putting up an announcement for a few minutes and then erasing the thread from the database.

I agree that the thread wasn't one of the better political threads we've seen, but erasing it completely is far worse than simply ending it.
   1732. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 29, 2012 at 11:19 AM (#4092264)
WTF does that have to do with the NBA thread, Andy? Keep that out of here.

And where do you suggest I put it, since there's no existing alternative?
   1733. rr Posted: March 29, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4092274)
WTF does that have to do with the NBA thread, Andy? Keep that out of here.


He just asked a question about a site situation, and I answered it. No big deal.

Andy,

Furtado specifically used the word "closed" in his post. So you might want to drop him a line about the issue.

   1734. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 29, 2012 at 11:27 AM (#4092278)
Andy,

Furtado specifically used the word "closed" in his post. So you might want to drop him a line about the issue.


Not only was it zapped and not "closed", but that explanation couldn't have been up there for more than five minutes before the whole thread disappeared from the site completely, including on the bookmarks column. I would have had no objection to a shutdown of a thread which had run its course (as this one pretty much had), but erasing it completely is an entirely different matter.
   1735. steagles Posted: March 29, 2012 at 11:37 AM (#4092291)
i'm with moses. put this #### in the dugout with the rest of the crap that's not important enough to start a new thread over.
   1736. formerly dp Posted: March 29, 2012 at 11:37 AM (#4092292)
Not only was it zapped and not "closed"

Did not realize that, thought they just closed it, rather than disappearing. Classy.
   1737. Famous Original Joe C Posted: March 29, 2012 at 11:41 AM (#4092298)
Yeah, there's a Dugout for that stuff. This is the NBA thread. No offense, but we really don't care.
   1738. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: March 29, 2012 at 11:43 AM (#4092304)
Email Jim or Dan. Post it in Jim's labs notes. Or the forums. Or anywhere else that makes more sense than an on-topic thread that has nothing at all to do with that thread or the majority of posters active in this thread..
   1739. formerly dp Posted: March 29, 2012 at 11:53 AM (#4092311)
Email Jim or Dan. Post it in Jim's labs notes. Or the forums. Or anywhere else that makes more sense than an on-topic thread that has nothing at all to do with that thread or the majority of posters active in this thread..

Sorry to have pissed in the group Corn Flake bowl. Enjoy the rest of your day!

I'd say go Knicks, but they're back to sucking again, right?
   1740. vagab0nd (no longer an outl13r) Posted: March 29, 2012 at 11:56 AM (#4092314)
2012 Clutch Stats

Tony Allen is unstoppable, shooting 93.8%. The Greatest Closer in NBA History (not named MJ) is shooting 27.9%. Maybe Bynum chucking 3's isn't that bad of a late game strategy.
   1741. Chicago Joe Posted: March 29, 2012 at 12:19 PM (#4092351)
Well, that's the thing though - perception vs reality. Were Smart or Stevens better options? And the 'could have gotten part' counts too, since those were pretty public failings. Beckman was at best the 2nd choice to Sumlin, and now Groce is at best the 3rd choice (the Chicago papers keep counting the 3 guys from 1702 as other picks that turned the job down even though they didn't get offers).


Groce has experienced success on a national stage, whereas Beckman hasn't particularly. Part of that is the structure of college football. I'm much happier with this hire than football.
   1742. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: March 29, 2012 at 12:27 PM (#4092358)
2012 Clutch Stats

How is there no one from the Bulls showing up on that at all? I don't see any minimum requirements, and it's goes all the way to Battier's 0.0 pts average.
   1743. vagab0nd (no longer an outl13r) Posted: March 29, 2012 at 12:35 PM (#4092360)
For these stats "Clutch" is defined as:
4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points


Those are the requirements listed at the top of the page :). Odd about the Bulls though...
   1744. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: March 29, 2012 at 12:56 PM (#4092387)
I said requirements, not definition...
   1745. puck Posted: March 29, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4092396)
I guess these sort of stats are almost old hat for you guys, but I haven't seen as much of it and found this to be very interesting:

Aggression is the hallmark of Faried's game. He uses it well and it's a big reason why he's ranked second this week. But sometimes, Faried's intensity causes him to make mistakes on defense. Faried wants to stop the ball so badly that he tends to over-help. Sometimes he leaves his man when he doesn't need to; sometimes he gets caught ball-watching and his mans slips into a pocket of open space. The result? Opponents shoot 56.1 percent on spot-up jumpers while posting 1.397 points per possession against Faried, placing him in the bottom 2 percent of NBA players when it comes to defending spot-up opportunities. [Source: Grantland article on NBA Rookies]


That's really cool. Faried's defense had been George Karl's standard answer for why fans should expect only a gradual introduction of Faried into the lineup. (I wonder if Karl was ok w/the Nene trade.) Interesting to see it actually quantified.
   1746. rr Posted: March 29, 2012 at 01:16 PM (#4092398)
The Greatest Closer in NBA History

We know you're a Hater, big guy. Don't need to keep showing us.
   1747. Jimmy P Posted: March 29, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4092399)
The Greatest Closer in NBA History


I'm starting to wonder if outl13r is Henry Abbott.
   1748. rr Posted: March 29, 2012 at 01:19 PM (#4092403)
puck,

A lot of good stuff at NBA.com advanced stats as well as 82games.com.

NBA.com's new breakdown stuff in particular is really good.
   1749. vagab0nd (no longer an outl13r) Posted: March 29, 2012 at 01:22 PM (#4092404)
I said requirements, not definition...


That's what I get for posting before coffee. If there are minimums, then I would guess that 35 minutes is the bare minimum. Apparently the list hasn't been updated in 6 weeks either.
   1750. vagab0nd (no longer an outl13r) Posted: March 29, 2012 at 01:30 PM (#4092408)
We know you're a Hater, big guy. Don't need to keep showing us.


I legitimately believe Kobe to be the 2nd greatest closer in NBA history that I've seen. Just because I think he shouldn't be taking as many shots NOW doesn't take away from that; it's a product of his having quality teammates and injuries/age taking away from his efficiency.
   1751. andrewberg Posted: March 29, 2012 at 01:36 PM (#4092414)
Does anyone know how I can get in touch with Nerlens Noel to gently encourage/blackmail him to go to Georgetown? If there's one thing I like more than a 7' defensive anchor who preaches his love of team basketball, it's a 7' defensive anchor who preaches his love of team basketball with a flat top fade.
   1752. smileyy Posted: March 29, 2012 at 01:59 PM (#4092439)
There were recruiting shenanigans around Nerlens Noel, which tends to make me dislike a kid, probably irrationally.

If you're serious, I'm sure you could tweet at him. But you'd also want to be careful of recruiting violations.
   1753. madvillain Posted: March 29, 2012 at 03:28 PM (#4092472)
I'd say go Knicks, but they're back to sucking again, right?


The Knicks are winning. If it's enough to be anymore than getting the 7th or 8th seed and an almost certain 1st round exit, we'll see. Turns out D'Antonio wasn't the right coach for that bunch. Go figure.
   1754. hokieneer Posted: March 29, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4092483)
Barnes, Henson, and Marshall are all entering the Draft
   1755. andrewberg Posted: March 29, 2012 at 04:27 PM (#4092504)
Does that mean JM Mcadoo is coming back?
   1756. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: March 29, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4092519)
Kendall Marshall is not an NBA player.
   1757. andrewberg Posted: March 29, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4092521)
Kendall Marshall is not an NBA player.


Letting guys play in the NBA a week after their team is eliminated from the tournament would be disastrous, and that's to say nothing of his wrist injury. Be patient!
   1758. nick swisher hygiene Posted: March 29, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4092538)
1756--Strongly disagree: as does, eg, DraftExpress, who knows better than either of us...

Edit--Berg's take is more judicious ;-)
   1759. Jimmy P Posted: March 29, 2012 at 05:27 PM (#4092545)
1756--Strongly disagree: as does, eg, DraftExpress, who knows better than either of us...


I take it to mean DraftExpress thinks he'll be drafted. That's going to happen. Whether he's a bust is a different issue.
   1760. andrewberg Posted: March 29, 2012 at 05:31 PM (#4092548)
Marshall on DE

Best Case: Andre Miller
Worst Case: Mark Jackson


Odd. I definitely think of Jackson as being at least as good as Miller.

Marshall instead stands out with his incredible feel for the game, court vision, and passing ability, making him the type of point guard that most any player would love to play with

...

In the halfcourt, Marshall does a great of running his team and getting his teammates involved and finding them in the right spots

...

He has an unorthodox game and some glaring weaknesses, namely his lack of athleticism and subpar shooting and finishing abilities. With that said, he is a very unique player who appears to have excellent intangibles and an uncanny understanding of how to play the game from the point guard position.
   1761. Famous Original Joe C Posted: March 29, 2012 at 05:32 PM (#4092549)
Best Case: Andre Miller
Worst Case: Mark Jackson


I don't follow college guys, outside of a precious few, until a few weeks before the NBA draft, but Mark Jackson was pretty good. That's his floor?
   1762. billyshears Posted: March 29, 2012 at 05:43 PM (#4092557)
There must be another Mark Jackson we're not remembering.
   1763. smileyy Posted: March 29, 2012 at 05:48 PM (#4092561)
Letting guys play in the NBA a week after their team is eliminated from the tournament would be disastrous awseome.


FTFY.

Edit: Sorry, you're right, it should be a week after the Final Four ends. Can't encourage tanking to get paid.
   1764. smileyy Posted: March 29, 2012 at 05:53 PM (#4092565)
DE must be talking about his prospects, if he decides to change sports and play baseball instead:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=jackso003mar

I'm astounded that (1) there's never been a major league player named "Mark Jackson" and (2) that no one sees any problems with a point guard who can't shoot and can't finish at the rim?
   1765. nick swisher hygiene Posted: March 29, 2012 at 05:59 PM (#4092566)
no one sees any problems with a point guard who can't shoot and can't finish at the rim?


his offensive game's looked a lot better since January. sure, he has flaws. everybody does. sure, floor of "Mark Jackson" seems ambitious. but I'd pick him ahead of, eg, Harrison Barnes...
   1766. smileyy Posted: March 29, 2012 at 06:16 PM (#4092580)
That's fair. You can't really teach vision, but he'll be limited if he can't score. At least Rondo can finish at the rim.

And yeah, I've been unimpressed by Harrison Barnes. He strikes me as a role-player, not a #1 or #2 on a championship team.
   1767. kpelton Posted: March 29, 2012 at 06:18 PM (#4092581)
Has Randolph Morris already been forgotten?
   1768. andrewberg Posted: March 29, 2012 at 06:21 PM (#4092584)
Has Randolph Morris already been forgotten?


Apparently so, because when I first saw that name, I thought you were referencing Randolph Childress as cautionary can't shoot PG tale.
   1769. Jimmy P Posted: March 29, 2012 at 06:31 PM (#4092595)
his offensive game's looked a lot better since January. sure, he has flaws. everybody does. sure, floor of "Mark Jackson" seems ambitious. but I'd pick him ahead of, eg, Harrison Barnes...

I'd worry about his ability to guard.

Man, I still think Harrison Barnes can be a nice knockdown shooter. I wouldn't want my career depending on it, and I can't say I'd want any team I like to get him, but I'd rather have him than Marshall. Marshall's helped by a) no other point guards being worth anything this year and b) UNC getting bombed after he got hurt.
   1770. smileyy Posted: March 29, 2012 at 06:34 PM (#4092597)
[1768] You too? Then I remembered that Randolph Childress was in college when I was in college, and it probably wasn't likely that he's the Omar Vizquel of basketball.
   1771. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: March 29, 2012 at 07:06 PM (#4092609)
Bradley Beal's retreating to his fortress of solitude in St. Louis to think over his decision. His dad says Beal is legitimately torn, but we've heard that quite a lot over the years. Gotta figure Beal's gone.
   1772. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: March 29, 2012 at 07:16 PM (#4092611)
I agree 100% with [1769].

Randolph Childress was awesome, loved that dude.
   1773. Jimmy P Posted: March 29, 2012 at 07:27 PM (#4092617)
Bradley Beal's retreating to his fortress of solitude in St. Louis to think over his decision. His dad says Beal is legitimately torn, but we've heard that quite a lot over the years. Gotta figure Beal's gone.

Doesn't he go to school in Florida? I think your answer is right there.

Dude's projected to be the top wing and a top 5. Take the money, man.
   1774. PJ Martinez Posted: March 29, 2012 at 08:08 PM (#4092631)
How do Harrison Barnes and Rudy Gay compare? I ask because, while I don't follow college hoops, both play the same position (right?), and both were very highly touted prospects going into college who then sort of disappointed (in seemingly similar ways? are people saying Barnes looks uninterested, lacks a competitive drive, etc?).

Gay slipped to 8th in the draft, and in hindsight, he probably should have gone 3rd (or 4th, after Rondo, but few saw that coming). Of course, 2006 was a terrible draft.
   1775. rr Posted: March 29, 2012 at 08:18 PM (#4092633)
Hollinger Per Diem today:

The Lakers' key players made a ton of minutes early in the season and it may be catching up to them, particularly at the defensive end. The Lakers' defensive efficiency over the first 30 games of the year was an outstanding 97.4. In the next 10 games it was a decent 101.4. And in the past 10? An unacceptable 103.2, including a dreadful 107.5 in the past five.
Offense has increased across the league in that stretch, so the jump isn't quite as dramatic as it first looks, until you account for the opposition. The Lakers haven't faced a top-six offensive team in their past dozen games but have played five of the bottom 10. Even the "good" offensive teams in the rankings had warts -- Houston and Golden State, seventh and eighth respectively, both were playing without the two guards who had done the most to put them there.



5 of the Lakers' last 16 are against SA and OKC.
   1776. madvillain Posted: March 29, 2012 at 08:25 PM (#4092634)
w do Harrison Barnes and Rudy Gay compare? I ask because, while I don't follow college hoops, both play the same position (right?), and both were very highly touted prospects going into college who then sort of disappointed (in seemingly similar ways? are people saying Barnes looks uninterested, lacks a competitive drive, etc?).


I could be wrong, but I believe Gay was perceived as your typical "freak athlete", whereas Barnes is usually just talked about as having "ideal athleticism". Gay is a good player, but I think the folks who questioned his will to win were at least halfway right. He doesn't strike me as the type of competitor that Kobe, Rose, Lebron, Wade and Paul are, although to be fair, few are.
   1777. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: March 29, 2012 at 08:39 PM (#4092641)

Doesn't he go to school in Florida? I think your answer is right there.


He's from St. Louis. Beal has plenty of experience living in unpleasant areas.
   1778. andrewberg Posted: March 29, 2012 at 08:50 PM (#4092648)

Doesn't he go to school in Florida? I think your answer is right there.


He's from St. Louis. Beal has plenty of experience living in unpleasant areas.


I took that to mean that he seems to be going pro if he's spending school time in STL to think about it. Probably not a scientific truth, but there's some sense to that.

PJ- I have also thought of Gay in relation to Barnes. Granger and Deng are the other pros who cut a similar figure, all with very different games, obviously. I think he is probably the least explosive and worst off the dribble of that group, but I don't think the deficit is so large that he can't be a productive player. I'm also interested to see how he develops defensively. The things that make pros good defenders are not necessarily as the things that work in college (esp perimeter) and I'm not very good at making those translations.
   1779. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: March 29, 2012 at 10:06 PM (#4092667)
I think Barnes has gone from overrated to underrated. He hasn't gone nuclear on the NCAA like many expected coming in and so now he is viewed as a huge disappointment. But the reasons why he was a good NBA prospect are still there -- good size and athleticism, intelligent player, good scorer, good teammate. He'll probably end up going somewhere from 6-10, where he will be a perfectly fine pick. The fact that he was expected coming into college to be a #1 overall pick and isn't that caliber of player doesn't mean he's a scrub.
   1780. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: March 29, 2012 at 10:35 PM (#4092674)
There must be another Mark Jackson we're not remembering.


This one is currently a Sixers post-game analyst and is incredibly bad at it. Hopefully Marshall can do better than Marc's 7 three-pointers in 7 NBA seasons.
   1781. SouthSideRyan Posted: March 29, 2012 at 10:53 PM (#4092678)
[1779]Absolutely agree. I think he'll be a good pro.
   1782. Spivey Posted: March 29, 2012 at 11:05 PM (#4092684)
I like Barnes. He's got SF size, and while he is not going to be an above average NBA starting wing athlete, he shouldn't be much of a liability in that department. He has the strength for it. He is a good shooter and seems to have a decent all around game.

As for Marshall - I don't want a guy who can't score and can't play defense. It's not like he's Steve Nash with the basketball for setting up teammates, merely NBA caliber.. I think his pros are being overrated and his cons are not properly appreciated. I would bet anyone any amount of money that he'll be a bust by any reasonable definition of the word.
   1783. JuanGone..except1game Posted: March 30, 2012 at 12:02 AM (#4092704)
[1768] You too? Then I remembered that Randolph Childress was in college when I was in college, and it probably wasn't likely that he's the Omar Vizquel of basketball.


As much as I hate Duke, one of my favorite live basketball viewing moments was at a Duke game against Wake Forest with Childress in 95. My college roommate's dad is a big time Duke booster and we went up to Durham from Atlanta for the game at Duke with Childress,Duncan and Rusty LaRue playing against Cherokee and Langdon. We (5 of us from college) had floor seats and watched Childress just shoot the lights out in the 2nd half to come from behind with a last second bucket to win. We were obviously rooting against Duke and so Cameron Arena's silence was about as good as a moment as I've ever had in an arena (plus we sat right behind the Duke cheerleaders). I swore at the time Childress was going to be Joe Dumars-lite but alas his NBA career never really happened.
   1784. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: March 30, 2012 at 12:42 AM (#4092722)
Man, the Lakers really look awful without Gasol on the floor. And trade or no trade, they still can't guard Russell Westbrook.

Edit: It's getting embarrassing.
   1785. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: March 30, 2012 at 09:40 AM (#4092803)
I liked Kerr's comparison of Harrison Barnes to Sean Elliott, who was a solid player for a long time. Barnes will probably rebound a little better than Elliott.

A guy who's intriguing is Henson. He could be a Varejao-lite.
Henson: 29 mpg, 13.7 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 2.9 bpg
ADavis: 32 mpg, 14.3 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 4.6 bpg

Obviously the blocks are a big difference. Davis is also a more efficient shooter, and Henson's two years older. But Henson could have a nice career.
   1786. bunyon Posted: March 30, 2012 at 10:01 AM (#4092819)
As much as I hate Duke, one of my favorite live basketball viewing moments was at a Duke game against Wake Forest with Childress in 95. My college roommate's dad is a big time Duke booster and we went up to Durham from Atlanta for the game at Duke with Childress,Duncan and Rusty LaRue playing against Cherokee and Langdon. We (5 of us from college) had floor seats and watched Childress just shoot the lights out in the 2nd half to come from behind with a last second bucket to win. We were obviously rooting against Duke and so Cameron Arena's silence was about as good as a moment as I've ever had in an arena (plus we sat right behind the Duke cheerleaders). I swore at the time Childress was going to be Joe Dumars-lite but alas his NBA career never really happened.

Happy to oblige you.

But, yeah, Randolph is awesome.
   1787. Famous Original Joe C Posted: March 30, 2012 at 10:40 AM (#4092858)
Man, the Lakers really look awful without Gasol on the floor. And trade or no trade, they still can't guard Russell Westbrook.

Who can really guard Russell Westbrook, though?
   1788. Jimmy P Posted: March 30, 2012 at 10:45 AM (#4092869)
I like Barnes. He's got SF size, and while he is not going to be an above average NBA starting wing athlete, he shouldn't be much of a liability in that department. He has the strength for it. He is a good shooter and seems to have a decent all around game.

This probably isn't a bad analysis. I don't think Gay is a good comparison at all. Gay is not only more athletic in just about every sense - speed, quickness, jumping - but Gay isn't afraid to drive. The biggest issue that I have with Barnes, and a lot of analysts do, is that he's content with shooting. He doesn't drive. Now, some of that may be UNC, some may be his inability to beat guys off the dribble, and some may be passiveness. It may change, but right now he's too content with jump shots.

And he gets almost zero assists. Again, it may be UNC's offense, but if he can't pass, that's a major issue.

   1789. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 30, 2012 at 11:06 AM (#4092894)
Barnes strikes me as another in a long line of boring small forwards taken mid-lottery who never meet peoples expectations, but are decent ballplayers to have around. Like (though there games are different) Jarvis Hayes.
Barnes is somewhere between Hayes and Elliott - how's that for specificity.

Davis was waaay more of a bruiser than Henson, though I like both dudes.

I said this upthread, but there have been a lot of point guards who aren't great at shooting or finishing at the rim (like Rubio). Or shooting and defense (like Mark Jackson*, Ramon Sessions). Or shooting and defense and finishing at the rim (Avery Johnson, who's faster but also a lot shorter). Or...
Marshall has a solid ceiling (outstanding playmaker + solid size and the potential to improve as a shooter) and a pretty low floor - he's an interesting ballplayer. I'd consider taking him, sure.

I liked Marc Jackson - he did a nice job of turning himself into a useful guy.

Whenever I watched Randolph Childress play, he destroyed people. Looking at his college numbers - he was pretty good (better than they may appear at first glance in some ways, due to shooting a lot of threes and free throws), worse in others (high minutes inflate numbers, plus some red flags for his future prospects with things like so so stl/min #s). Kudos to the league for not taking him higher than 19th, particular given just how awful his pro career turned out (not helped by his ACL).


* I love draftexpress but Mark Jackson is third all time in assists - that's nobody's floor.
   1790. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: March 30, 2012 at 11:11 AM (#4092898)
Some good reads from yesterday, in case people missed it:

Zach Lowe on corner 3pts.

I've seen a couple of places wondering how good the Bulls are without Rose, like Beckely Mason here and in the daily dime article by Hollinger linked in the first paragraph.

I've also really enjoyed Heat Week at the CourtVision blog.
   1791. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: March 30, 2012 at 11:30 AM (#4092923)
Oh, trivia-ish question I was asked: what (ex-)NBA players have Ph.D.s?
   1792. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: March 30, 2012 at 11:36 AM (#4092928)
You mean besides Darnell Hillman?
   1793. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: March 30, 2012 at 11:36 AM (#4092929)
Bill Bradley? Dave Bing?

I think Shaq is working on his.
   1794. steagles Posted: March 30, 2012 at 11:40 AM (#4092931)

A guy who's intriguing is Henson. He could be a Varejao-lite.
Henson: 29 mpg, 13.7 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 2.9 bpg
ADavis: 32 mpg, 14.3 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 4.6 bpg

Obviously the blocks are a big difference. Davis is also a more efficient shooter, and Henson's two years older. But Henson could have a nice career.
in related news, has anyone noticed what brandon wright has been doing in dallas? he's only been playing limited minutes, but he's averaging 15, 7, and 3 blocks per 36 minutes with a 21 PER and a 60+ FG%, eFG%, and TS%.

   1795. Jimmy P Posted: March 30, 2012 at 11:45 AM (#4092940)
Oh, trivia-ish question I was asked: what (ex-)NBA players have Ph.D.s?


Does Adonal Foyle? Wasn't he really smart?
   1796. andrewberg Posted: March 30, 2012 at 12:39 PM (#4092974)
As a coach, Jack Ramsey is at least known as a dr. They probably talk about where that name comes from in Breaks of the Game, but I dont remember if he actually has a PHD. Also, Julius Erving, obviously.

I think Jimmy nailed the thing that sticks out about Barnes- he loves settling for midrange jumpers and it is disconcerting. True, maybe it is a system thing at UNC. Another guy who comes to mind who seems like he should have been better at driving is OJ Mayo. In both cases, I watch the guy and wonder why he isnt more aggressive off the dribble. Mayo has made himself a useful player despite almost never getting to the rim. Of course, with Barnes being bigger and playing forward instead of guard, you would expect him to play in and around the paint more. Mayo can shoot some threes and is a very good defender, so Barnes has to do more than just be a good jump shooter.

I guess a recent SF who has built an effective offensive game around jumpers is Josh Howard. If Barnes can rebound like Howard did before his injury, that is the sort of plus factor like Mayo's defense, and would probably warrant something like the 5th or 6th pick. If he doesn't rebound but learns to get ot the line 6+ times per game, that could make him Ricky Pierce, and that is also a good outcome. Definitely an interesting guy.

Marshall- I think he is a good late lotto guy because I think is floor is something like Darrell Armstrong or Anthony Carter: a limited scorer who can facilitate enough to effectively run the second unit. If he is a horrid defender, that changes things (although you don't need to be Gary Payton to man up on Keyon Dooling or Patty Mills for 15 minutes). I just don't know enough about his defense or- like I said yesterday- exactly how college defenses systems/skills translate into the pros to say confidently that he will be useless.
   1797. madvillain Posted: March 30, 2012 at 12:50 PM (#4092983)
Chicago has allowed 50 fewer corner threes than the next closest team, Houston. That's...insane.
   1798. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: March 30, 2012 at 01:01 PM (#4092991)
Who can really guard Russell Westbrook, though?
Truth. His 17 points in the 3rd quarter just buried the Lakers. That's five in a row for OKC, three of them against playoff teams, two of them easy wins against the Lakers and Heat. I refuse to believe there's a team out there that's better than OKC in anything but the smallest of ways.
   1799. The Mighty Quintana Posted: March 30, 2012 at 01:25 PM (#4093017)
I like Zeller a whole lot better than Marshall, Henson, and Barnes. At least he has an effective idea of what he wants to do on offense, sort of a poor man's Gasol. I think Henson is too slight to play down low in the NBA. At the other end of the spectrum I don't like Marshall's body-type, seems like he would be prone to put on weight.

Barnes is a conundrum to me, right now he looks hesitant...sort of paralysis by anlysis. I think he could have a Mashburn-type career maybe, or if he decided to focus on defense, he could be a Battier-type. But he needs to get his confidence back - another year at UNC would have helped..
   1800. smileyy Posted: March 30, 2012 at 01:37 PM (#4093027)
I'm of the opinion that if a player has the skills to be getting regular run in the NBA, they should be in the NBA. I think Barnes fits that criteria, despite his flaws.

Is it possible that Barnes was a guy who was really tall and really good at shooting a basketball at a young age, but whose upside is limited beyond that?
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