Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Tuesday, May 01, 2012

OT: NBA Monthly Thread, May 2012

I estimate that only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what the site is really about: Bryce Harper getting mooned by a Dodgers fan, how dumb interleague baseball is, or random spamming of Yankees/RedSox news that barely counts as news.

Tripon Posted: May 01, 2012 at 10:28 AM | 2330 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags:

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 1 of 24 pages  1 2 3 4 5 6 >  Last ›
   1. Famous Original Joe C Posted: May 01, 2012 at 11:03 AM (#4120604)
I liked my lead-in better. Plus, I actually linked to last month's thread.
   2. Famous Original Joe C Posted: May 01, 2012 at 11:07 AM (#4120609)
Moses, what was that Amare link to? I couldn't open it.
   3. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: May 01, 2012 at 11:11 AM (#4120613)
Adidas unveils Derrick Rose playoff jersey.
   4. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: May 01, 2012 at 11:11 AM (#4120615)
Moses, what was that Amare link to? I couldn't open it.

Someone posted pictures of the NY Post headlines. They were "Fire Drilled. May Day May Day." and "Bloody Idiot".
   5. Famous Original Joe C Posted: May 01, 2012 at 11:13 AM (#4120619)
[3] That is COLD - but I laughed anyway. The "Users who liked this also liked" was a nice touch.
   6. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: May 01, 2012 at 11:14 AM (#4120622)
You jerks, replacing the thread right after I had linked to my own Slavic orthography rant. Now I have to link it again and look like a jerk myself.
   7. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: May 01, 2012 at 11:17 AM (#4120626)
The NY Daily News backpage headline was "GLASSHOLE"
   8. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: May 01, 2012 at 11:18 AM (#4120628)
You jerks, replacing the thread right after I had linked to my own Slavic orthography rant. Now I have to link it again and look like a jerk myself.

A decent rant for a jerk. I enjoyed it.
   9. Booey Posted: May 01, 2012 at 11:30 AM (#4120638)
You jerks, replacing the thread right after I had linked to my own Slavic orthography rant. Now I have to link it again and look like a jerk myself.

Gregor #####


Awesome name, BTW.

Edit: Damn you, cyber-nanny! It was a legitimate name, not a curse!

Gregor F*cka. My inner 12 year old is giggling.
   10. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: May 01, 2012 at 11:31 AM (#4120641)
Someone posted pictures of the NY Post headlines. They were "Fire Drilled. May Day May Day." and "Bloody Idiot".

The NY Daily News backpage headline was "GLASSHOLE"

I still have a soft spot for NY tabloid headline conventions, compared to, say, The Onion AV Club's conventions.
   11. robinred Posted: May 01, 2012 at 11:33 AM (#4120642)
Some guy wrote that Stoudemire punched the fire extinguisher because he was "jealous of its ability to contain Heat."
   12. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: May 01, 2012 at 11:38 AM (#4120650)
Between [3] and some of the Amar'e tweets from last night I've pretty much been laughing non stop.
   13. Kurt Posted: May 01, 2012 at 11:38 AM (#4120651)
Crispix Attacks Does Not Care For The Onion AV Club's Conventions, Reports Crispix Attacks.
   14. andrewberg Posted: May 01, 2012 at 11:38 AM (#4120652)
It feels to me like Dallas is about to win game 3 by at least a dozen. OKC just barely kept its head above water with a fired up home crowd and those benefit-of-the-doubt calls from the refs. If Marion keeps giving Durant the business, the series is not going to be easy, but I think they'll manage to squeak it out.
   15. robinred Posted: May 01, 2012 at 11:46 AM (#4120663)
It feels to me like Dallas is about to win game 3 by at least a dozen


Nah. It is pretty clear already that Roland Beech and his spreadsheets are no match for Derek Fisher's veteran clutchness late in games. Last year was an abberration.
   16. robinred Posted: May 01, 2012 at 11:48 AM (#4120671)
I checked out Celtics Hub; one of the guys there seemed fairly confident about tonight's game, with Pierce playing "point forward."
   17. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: May 01, 2012 at 11:50 AM (#4120674)
RE: Josh Smith, I've always liked the guy, even when he was being stupid and behaving like a 10 year old. That said, I always liked the other Josh better. The one with the 'fro that went to play in Europe.
   18. andrewberg Posted: May 01, 2012 at 11:53 AM (#4120680)
Nah. It is pretty clear already that Roland Beech and his spreadsheets are no match for Derek Fisher's veteran clutchness late in games. Last year was an abberration.


It is funny watching Fisher coddle Westbrook. Every time Westbrook yelled at someone or got frustrated last night, Fisher was in his ear with a hand on his shoulder. I don't know if it is effective or not, but OKC clearly brought him in to try to keep Westbrook collected. If it does work, the difference between him and Sefolosha/Cook is considerably in his favor.
   19. Famous Original Joe C Posted: May 01, 2012 at 11:55 AM (#4120684)
I checked out Celtics Hub; one of the guys there seemed fairly confident about tonight's game, with Pierce playing "point forward."

I am not confident at all, but I think this is the right move. Pierce played this role in the 8 games Rondo missed earlier this season - he averaged 7.5 assists and the Celtics went 6-2 in that stretch (granting they mostly played lousy teams). He also did it late in the season in a win against (Dwightless) Orlando and put up 29 and 14 with Rondo out. It's a better bet than Avery Bradley running the offense.
   20. JJ1986 Posted: May 01, 2012 at 12:06 PM (#4120695)
That said, I always liked the other Josh better. The one with the 'fro that went to play in Europe.


I think the Suns would be happy to give him back.
   21. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: May 01, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4120699)
I think it's the right move to have Pierce play point forward (I think I saw Petrius is starting at SG since they don't know if Allen is available). But the C's are mighty thin right now. I don't want to write them off completely, but I would be slightly surprised if they won tonight.

---

If the Sixers have any chance of winning this series against the Bulls, they have to win tonight. The Bulls have already beaten the Sixers this year without Rose, so the Sixers should have a good idea of what to expect. If the Bulls are to have any sort of mental letdown, it would be tonight. If the Bulls win tonight, the series is as good as over.
   22. AROM Posted: May 01, 2012 at 12:11 PM (#4120702)
I checked out Celtics Hub; one of the guys there seemed fairly confident about tonight's game, with Pierce playing "point forward."


The pressure is on Atlanta. Tonight they have home court and no Rondo. If they can't win in those circumstances nobody will give them a chance going into the garden with a rested and ready for revenge Rondo. Atlanta needs Joe Johnson to have a much better game, and to be aggressive early. Make Pierce work on defense and hopefully get him into some foul trouble.
   23. The Buddy Biancalana Hit Counter Posted: May 01, 2012 at 12:37 PM (#4120724)
I checked out Celtics Hub; one of the guys there seemed fairly confident about tonight's game, with Pierce playing "point forward."

In the fourth quarter of Game 1, the Celtics appeared either to realize or remember that what keeps Jason Collins effective as a post defender (he doesn't move) can be a liability when you make him defend the pick-and-roll.

Also, in the game in Atlanta in the final week where Doc Rivers rested his starters, Avery Bradley was a very dangerous pick-and-roll ball-handler himself. With Pierce and Garnett playing tonight, I doubt Bradley will be (or have the opportunity to be) as assertive as he was in that game but defending the pick-and-roll is Atlanta's remaining Achilles' heel defensively and Bradley could provide a second point of attack.

Beyond the uncertainty of any NBA game where a team only has to score 80 points to win, Larry Drew having to make defensive adjustments with no real options at his disposal is my primary worry.
   24. Yardape Posted: May 01, 2012 at 12:50 PM (#4120742)
You jerks, replacing the thread right after I had linked to my own Slavic orthography rant. Now I have to link it again and look like a jerk myself.


If it makes you feel better, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I know a little Czech, and it is frustrating to listen to people butcher names like that.
   25. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 01, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4120745)
There was a good post somewhere (I'm afraid I won't be able to dig it up) about the offensive sets the Celtics ran during their Rondoless stretch. The basic gist is that everything they ran keyed off of Pierce ballhandling pick-and-rolls. Tonight's game should be an ugly, low-scoring slugfest, and I'm quite sure Boston will be toothless on O for stretches, but they shouldn't be completely hopeless.
   26. robinred Posted: May 01, 2012 at 01:13 PM (#4120782)
time Westbrook yelled at someone or got frustrated last night, Fisher was in his ear with a hand on his shoulder.


I mentioned this when Fisher sighed there; Westbrook grew up in LA, watching and rooting for the threepeat teams in the aughts. I speculated that it was a motivator for OKC's bringing in Fisher. Whether that actually justifies playing Fisher is of course another matter.
   27. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: May 01, 2012 at 01:18 PM (#4120785)
Part of the problem with American pronunciation of foreign names is that we have so many ethnic Americans whose forebears gave up on attempting to preserve the original pronunciation of their names. It's hard to recognize the rules when "Weird Al Yankovic", "Dwight Eisenhower", and "Jane Kaczmarek" don't follow the same rules.
   28. Der-K, the bloodied charmer Posted: May 01, 2012 at 01:22 PM (#4120789)
Man, oh man, did Childress implode upon leaving Atlanta.

Not sure why you'd equate the headline conventions used by the AV Club and the Onion - totally different.

I so wanted, uh, Foosh-ka(?*) to sign with the Pacers ... just to see the jersey.

[* wordpress is blocked where i am, don't be hurt]
   29. smileyy Posted: May 01, 2012 at 01:32 PM (#4120798)
Given the superior quality of what the AV Club produces in terms of content, I often mentally conflate The Onion with (The Onion) AV Club. (I think they just brand themselves as "AV Club" now).

[27] There's also the (US) Americans of Latin American descent who don't use an accent where one would typically be found in their name.
   30. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 01, 2012 at 01:39 PM (#4120803)
@Monroe_SA: Popovich to be named Coach of Year at 2 pm.

Monroe's a guy on the Spurs beat and the Spurs are having a press conference, so it seems Pop is getting some well-deserved recognition.
   31. Famous Original Joe C Posted: May 01, 2012 at 01:39 PM (#4120804)
So, am I crazy think the Knicks will be better without Amare?
   32. smileyy Posted: May 01, 2012 at 01:46 PM (#4120810)
[31] No. Well, maybe. My guess is that its probably a wash. Amare was fairly efficient last night, but I don't think that's sustainable or able to be dialed up to volumes that will take the Knicks to a win.
   33. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 01, 2012 at 01:48 PM (#4120812)
So, am I crazy think the Knicks will be better without Amare?


I don't see how it'll really hurt them too much. If Chandler's over the flu, him at the 5 and Melo at the 4 seems like the best way for the Knicks to run things, given that the Heat don't have the size to punish them. I think, at least for this specific series, losing Shump's ability to guard Wade hurts a lot more than losing Amar'e.
   34. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: May 01, 2012 at 02:37 PM (#4120866)
Came across this line, "They had [Carmelo Anthony,] one of the game's best scorers -- if not the best scorer..." in an ESPN piece and it reminded me of a rant I went on last night thanks to Reggie Miller. Can we put an end to referring to people as "natural scorers"? Admittedly, I am a LeBron fanboy and it bothers me the lengths announcers/reporters go to to try and imply that anyone is a better scorer than he is. I can see an argument for Dirk or Durant, but other than that, I wish people would stop. Back to the ESPN piece, I can't think of any analysis under which Carmelo Anthony would be considered the best scorer in the NBA.
   35. smileyy Posted: May 01, 2012 at 02:39 PM (#4120874)
Reggie Miller is the Tony Gwynn of baseball.

Carmelo...has never led the league in points or points per game. He's never finished better than 5th in total points, and his finishes in PPG have been 2,3,3,4,6,8,8,NR

LeBron has finished 2nd in the league in points for 8 straight seasons, leads all active players in career PPG, and has finished 1,2,2,2,3,3,3,4 in PPG.

Nobody is going to break the media narrative of "Carmelo is a great player" enough to point out that...he's just not great. And given that volume scoring is all that he's really good at, they have to call him "a great scorer" or "the best scorer". Is there any shot that you'd want Carmelo to take that you wouldn't rather have LeBron, Durant, or even Wade, Dirk or maybe even Kobe take?
   36. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: May 01, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4120884)
I was very torn on Saturday. Do I watch the local clownfest broadcast featuring Neil Funk and Stacey King or the national garbagefest featuring Reggie Miller? I watched TNT at halftime, but the camera angle was better on CSN. I couldn't make up my mind and kept flipping. I bet I have the same conundrum tonight.
   37. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: May 01, 2012 at 02:49 PM (#4120888)
Reggie is just absolutely terrible. Is there any reason he has a more high profile gig than Chris Webber?
   38. Famous Original Joe C Posted: May 01, 2012 at 02:51 PM (#4120893)
I was very torn on Saturday. Do I watch the local clownfest broadcast featuring Neil Funk and Stacey King or the national garbagefest featuring Reggie Miller? I watched TNT at halftime, but the camera angle was better on CSN. I couldn't make up my mind and kept flipping. I bet I have the same conundrum tonight.

How are the Chicago radio guys? Do you have that option with either visual? Or, just go sound off - I do that sometimes as well.

Definitely TNT at halftime, though.
   39. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: May 01, 2012 at 02:54 PM (#4120897)
Nobody is going to break the media narrative of "Carmelo is a great player" enough to point out that...he's just not great.

That's what BTF is for.

He's just not great. He's actually a negative in that he simply won't play unless everything's structured around his touches and his whims. There are some coaches who probably knew that already, but he proved it beyond dispute to observant fans this season.

   40. Famous Original Joe C Posted: May 01, 2012 at 02:56 PM (#4120899)
Reggie is just absolutely terrible. Is there any reason he has a more high profile gig than Chris Webber?

No - however, Webber recently did some color commentary in these playoffs, maybe as time passes we'll see that change.

Have any of you guys ever watched the "Open Court" series that NBA TV ran (and can now be found on YouTube)? It's Barkley, Kenny Smith, Steve Smith, Shaq, Webber, Steve Kerr, and Reggie Miller (with Ernie Johnson as moderator) riffing and talking on any number of NBA related topics - best clutch player, what it's like to play under pressure, their biggest nemeses, etc, etc. It's really funny and sometimes fascinating. I highly recommend it to this crowd if you haven't seen it yet.
   41. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: May 01, 2012 at 02:58 PM (#4120904)
Have any of you guys ever watched the "Open Court" series that NBA TV ran (and can now be found on YouTube)? It's Barkley, Kenny Smith, Steve Smith, Shaq, Webber, Steve Kerr, and Reggie Miller (with Ernie Johnson as moderator) riffing and talking on any number of NBA related topics - best clutch player, what it's like to play under pressure, their biggest nemeses, etc, etc. It's really funny and sometimes fascinating. I highly recommend it to this crowd if you haven't seen it yet.

I remember watching this during the dark days of the lockout and really enjoying it.
   42. Booey Posted: May 01, 2012 at 03:01 PM (#4120908)
Reggie is just absolutely terrible. Is there any reason he has a more high profile gig than Chris Webber?

Well, it can't be because of his looks, that's for sure...
   43. andrewberg Posted: May 01, 2012 at 03:04 PM (#4120911)
Have any of you guys ever watched the "Open Court" series that NBA TV ran (and can now be found on YouTube)? It's Barkley, Kenny Smith, Steve Smith, Shaq, Webber, Steve Kerr, and Reggie Miller (with Ernie Johnson as moderator) riffing and talking on any number of NBA related topics - best clutch player, what it's like to play under pressure, their biggest nemeses, etc, etc. It's really funny and sometimes fascinating. I highly recommend it to this crowd if you haven't seen it yet


Seconded. I was riveted.

I think my judgment of basketball announcing is way too lenient. I don't hate Reggie or pretty much any other national guy. The last time I remember hating an announcer was that first round Spurs-Grizzlies series where NBATV picked up SA's feed and they felt like they had to prove how much they love their team. I had League Pass this year and watched pretty much every team's broadcast; very few stood out as awful. I didn't like the Cleveland or Sacto guys, but maybe that was just an effect of the games I was watching. I have heard people complain about Walt Frazier, though I loved listening to him.

It is weird that I feel that way because there are MANY baseball analysts who I despise. I also dislike the ESPN NBA studio show. I feel like they should scrap the whole thing (Magic is the most interesting but kind of all over the place, Wilbon is ok as a facilitator, and Barry is useless) and roll with Wilbon, Shaq, and Webber. Even if they have to get those guys out of the TNT deals, they seem to have some non-aggression pact about covering the NBA, and TNT has an embarrassment of riches. Kenny and Charles can do their thing, and C-Webb needs air time. I'm even willing to let Shaq keep getting better because I enjoyed him more as the season went on.
   44. Der-K, the bloodied charmer Posted: May 01, 2012 at 03:04 PM (#4120912)
Anthony is capable at scoring in a lot of different ways - I think this is part of why Spoelstra called him a top-3 cover (or whatever he said) the other day. (That and as part of talking up your opponent.) I suspect that may be part of why his career clutch shooting numbers are good (when defenses can pursue more aggressive/focused strategies / are more committed).
   45. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 01, 2012 at 03:04 PM (#4120914)
Have any of you guys ever watched the "Open Court" series that NBA TV ran
It's hysterical. I wish they'd make more of them.

It does seem interesting that the one guy in the room of Barkley, Steve Smith, Steve Kerr, Kenny Smith, Shaq, Chris Webber, and Reggie Miller, the guy who seemed to be held in actual awe by the others most often was Miller.
   46. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: May 01, 2012 at 03:18 PM (#4120928)
Amare's sick of Melo's hogging and that's probably why he punched the fire extinguisher.
   47. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: May 01, 2012 at 03:20 PM (#4120931)
How are the Chicago radio guys? Do you have that option with either visual? Or, just go sound off - I do that sometimes as well.

Chuck Swirsky and Bill Wennington. Unfortunately, Wennington is trying to become the new Stacey King for some reason. It isn't a great option.

I think my judgment of basketball announcing is way too lenient. I don't hate Reggie or pretty much any other national guy.

I don't hate Reggie - I should clarify, I don't hate Reggie the announcer per se, he just never has anything interesting to say, he thinks he's funny, and when he actually does spout an opinion he's usually wrong. That still probably puts him in the upper third of NBA announcers.

I also dislike the ESPN NBA studio show. I feel like they should scrap the whole thing (Magic is the most interesting but kind of all over the place, Wilbon is ok as a facilitator, and Barry is useless) and roll with Wilbon, Shaq, and Webber. Even if they have to get those guys out of the TNT deals, they seem to have some non-aggression pact about covering the NBA, and TNT has an embarrassment of riches. Kenny and Charles can do their thing, and C-Webb needs air time. I'm even willing to let Shaq keep getting better because I enjoyed him more as the season went on.

Yeah, the ESPN studio is awful. I don't like Wilbon in that format at all. I want to like Shaq, but like Simmons I think the TNT one is better when it's just EJ, Kenny and Charles.

Speaking of ESPN, Reggie Miller sounds like peak Hubie Brown compared to Chris Mullin.
   48. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 01, 2012 at 03:23 PM (#4120936)
From Hollinger today, giving hope to Bulls fans:
The part everybody seems to gloss over is how good it was even without Rose. I noted this in late March when Chicago came into Atlanta without him and still destroyed the Hawks: The Bulls played championship-caliber ball this season even when Rose wasn't available. Chicago outscored opponents by 8.4 points per 100 possessions even when he was off the court -- a figure that would have led the league this season.
...
By no means am I suggesting this will help; what happened this weekend was a major, major blow to the Bulls' title chances. But I'm wondering whether more efficient lineup usage may at least offset some of the impact. Chicago still has home-court advantage in every round, still has a fearsome defense that depended little on Rose and still has an offense that scored at a league-average clip even when Rose was out of the game.

The Bulls will need some breaks along the way, and no more injuries themselves, and Hamilton and Carlos Boozer in particular will need to dial up their offensive games. But I'm not ready to completely dismiss a team that, even without Rose, had the best scoring margin in the league.
   49. Conor Posted: May 01, 2012 at 03:24 PM (#4120937)
The open court show was awesome. Can't recommend it highly enough.

On the Melo and natural scorer thing, I always think of it in baseball terms. Melo may have "more ways" to score than Lebron, or Durant, or whoever, but he scores fewer points and does it less efficiently than those guys, so what does it matter? It's kind of like Rivera; he pretty much throws the cutter 95% of the time, but they can't hit it, so who cares? Does it make him less of a pitcher than Frankie Rodriguez (just keeping it to relievers) because Frankie has more pitches to get a guy out? So unless Melo's extra weapons (assuming he has them, which for the sake of the argument we'll say he does) if it doesn't manifest itself into scoring more points and/or doing so more efficiently, what does it matter? What is the fascination?
   50. Der-K, the bloodied charmer Posted: May 01, 2012 at 03:36 PM (#4120947)
Don't get me wrong, I'm 90% with you, Conor... just giving part of my take on the narrative.
(That versatility, if we'd grant it, has other virtues as well - though Carmelo's, ummmm, need to dictate the offense severely mitigates them. To be clear, I am not now, nor have I ever been, a fan.)
   51. Zipperholes Posted: May 01, 2012 at 03:37 PM (#4120949)
Nobody is going to break the media narrative of "Carmelo is a great player" enough to point out that...he's just not great. And given that volume scoring is all that he's really good at, they have to call him "a great scorer" or "the best scorer".
What do you mean "have to?" The media doesn't have a responsibility to describe things accurately, but rather to further narratives fabricated by their peers?
   52. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: May 01, 2012 at 03:37 PM (#4120951)
if it doesn't manifest itself into scoring more points and/or doing so more efficiently, what does it matter? What is the fascination?

I think it matters in the sense of going against a defender/defense that is really good at taking away certain weapons. It's good from a strategy POV. That said, I still think the bar for how good you need to be at scoring methods B-Z needs to be raised or something.

EDIT: I should add that this really came about when Reggie was going on and on about Wade being a superior scorer to LeBron which seemed ridiculous to me considering 1. They have the same amount of scoring titles 2. LeBron has the 3rd highest PPG of all time 3. Since joining forces LeBron's scoring has gone down less than D-Wade's 4. LeBron is a better finisher than Wade as well as a better shooter.
   53. smileyy Posted: May 01, 2012 at 03:38 PM (#4120952)
That's where my "Tony Gwynn" comp for guys who are looked at as "great" or "versatile" scorers. I'm sure Tony Gwynn had a ton of ways to hit a single...but to what end?

What do you mean "have to?"


Narrative in a nutshell: "Carmelo is an elite player. He must have an elite skillset. Hm, the only one I can think of is scoring. Since he only has one elite skill and he's an elite player, he must be the best or nearly the best at that skill."

I think it matters in the sense of going against a defender/defense that is really good at taking away certain weapons.


Doesn't LeBron have that same skillset that is attributed to Carmelo? Or is Carmelo a better scorer in some situations that LeBron? (I doubt it)
   54. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: May 01, 2012 at 03:38 PM (#4120953)
But I'm not ready to completely dismiss a team that, even without Rose, had the best scoring margin in the league.

Considering I picked the Bulls to win the title this year and honestly believed they were the best team, I'm surprised how well I've taken this Rose injury*. I feel oddly at peace; maybe it's because I saw how good the Bulls could still be without him**. Even though I really don't think they're going to beat the Heat (though I still say they get to the ECF), there's a small, small total fanboy irrational part of me that thinks they could still win this year. That part is wrong, but that tiny little hope is what's going to keep me into the playoff run this year.


*I can only assume Matt is in a gutter somewhere working on hour 72 of non-stop drinking.
**They also lost at home to NJ, Houston, Portland and Washington without him, so it's not all sunshine.
   55. AROM Posted: May 01, 2012 at 03:40 PM (#4120958)
The Bulls won 2/3 of the games they played without Rose. Given the 8.4 point differential El Hombre mentions in #48, not only is that probably not a fluke, it probably understates how good they are. They are still a better basketball team than everyone in the East except Miami, and will have home field advantage.

Not having Rose increases the chance they get upset before the ECF, and decreases their chance of beating Miami. But it doesn't change the most likely outcome, Heat were probably favored going into the playoffs, and Chicago should still be favored against anyone else.
   56. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: May 01, 2012 at 03:53 PM (#4120975)
Pop officially named CoY. Voting: Pop 77, Thibs 27, Vogel 7, Hollins 6. 1 vote for Rivers and Karl each.
   57. AROM Posted: May 01, 2012 at 03:53 PM (#4120978)
Carmelo:

Seems like every sport has to have a player who gets ballwashed by the media to a degree way out of proportion to his actual talent, and then a subsection of fans will feel the need to knock him down to the point where they are underrating him. I could say Carmelo is the new Derek Jeter in the big Apple, but it's more than that, the seeds were there even before Denver traded him.

Let's compare him to Kevin Durant.

Durant scores more points, 28.0 to 22.6

Durant shoots better, .496 to .430

Durant gets to the line more, and shoots free throws better. 7.6 to 6.7 attempts, .860 to .804 percentage.

Durant shoots more 3's (5.2 to 3.7) and shoots them at a better percentage (.387 to .335)

QED. Carmelo cannot be the best scorer under any criteria, because Durant is better than him at everything. I don't know if he's the 5th best or 20th best, but calling him the best is so provably stupid than anyone who says this on national TV or print should be forced to spend the next basketball game contemplating his stupidity while tied to the Tree of Woe.
   58. Zipperholes Posted: May 01, 2012 at 04:07 PM (#4120992)
Narrative in a nutshell: "Carmelo is an elite player. He must have an elite skillset. Hm, the only one I can think of is scoring. Since he only has one elite skill and he's an elite player, he must be the best or nearly the best at that skill."
So they are stupid. I agree with that. I inferred from "nobody is going to break the media narrative" that they feel bound to subscribe to the existing storyline.

This is not directed at you, smileyy--I'm always confused why, with so many smart people and mostly excellent analysis here, there is so much emphasis here on the garbage spewed by the MSM. Why can't we talk about basketball, instead of what someone (EDIT: some) clown from ESPN is saying about basketball?
   59. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 01, 2012 at 04:09 PM (#4120995)
Not to put too fine a point on it, but Carmelo's rep is a product of the eye test, right? He looks good scoring a lot of different ways. He scores a lot of points. If you're someone like Reggie, that's QED right there. He always has an answer on the court that will get him a decent-looking shot. If you stop to look at the numbers, a lot of those decent- or good-looking shots aren't really efficient choices, but if you're watching games and not bothering to go past the points/assists/rebounds stat sheet, Melo looks damn good. LeBron puts up better and more efficient numbers across the board, but he never looks as smooth doing it, or does it as many ways, as Melo does. That doesn't matter in terms of helping a team win, but it does matter to the eyeball test.
   60. Conor Posted: May 01, 2012 at 04:09 PM (#4120996)
EDIT: I should add that this really came about when Reggie was going on and on about Wade being a superior scorer to LeBron which seemed ridiculous to me considering 1. They have the same amount of scoring titles 2. LeBron has the 3rd highest PPG of all time 3. Since joining forces LeBron's scoring has gone down less than D-Wade's 4. LeBron is a better finisher than Wade as well as a better shooter.


I think maybe Lebron is just so physically dominant people don't give him as much credit for his scoring as they should? I don't know, but for example you see Kobe make a ton of tough jumpers and stuff and Wade to a lesser extent (much lesser extent, but he'll do stuff on the wing where he'll pump fake a guy in the air, lean in and bank one in or something) and I think sometimes guys get extra credit for the degree of difficulty. Like, Kobe makes more tougher shots than Lebron, so he's "better". Except that Lebron doesn't need to take as many tough shots as Kobe, and that should be a point in his favor.

I don't know, maybe that doesn't make sense, but it's something I've noticed.

Btw, I didn't realize Lebron is #3 all time in scoring per game. Guess I don't think of basketball stats like that in the same way I would for a baseball stat. Like I would probably know if Pujols or someone was third all time in Slug%.

I just wanted to add; I'm a huge Knicks fan and I watch all of their games, and I watch a lot of Miami games also, but watcjing Lebron go agaisnt Melo the last 2 games; it's just mind boggling anyone could think they are in the same league as players. ( I don't think anyone here does, to be fair). Melo is a good player, maybe very good, but Lebron is just incredible and he can do nearly anything. Melo will make one or 2 2 nice passes per game to get a guy an open look, but Lebron does that all the time.
   61. JC in DC Posted: May 01, 2012 at 04:09 PM (#4120998)

I'm always confused why, with so many smart people and mostly excellent analysis here, there is so much emphasis here on the garbage spewed by the MSM. Why can't we talk about basketball, instead of what someone (EDIT: some) clown from ESPN is saying about basketball?


Totally agree.
   62. Booey Posted: May 01, 2012 at 04:18 PM (#4121005)
Pop officially named CoY. Voting: Pop 77, Thibs 27, Vogel 7, Hollins 6. 1 vote for Rivers and Karl each.


Congrats to Pop. It was well deserved.

I was hoping Corbin would get at least a few votes, though.
   63. Famous Original Joe C Posted: May 01, 2012 at 04:20 PM (#4121006)
Btw, I didn't realize Lebron is #3 all time in scoring per game.

Even more incredible to me is that he's 28th all time in assists per game on top of it.
   64. JC in DC Posted: May 01, 2012 at 04:30 PM (#4121016)
Even more incredible to me is that he's 28th all time in assists per game on top of it.


But he's currently tied for last in titles per game, and that's all that matterz.
   65. SouthSideRyan Posted: May 01, 2012 at 04:33 PM (#4121019)
Corbin got a 2nd place vote and 6 3rd places. I could see an argument for any of Pop, Thibs, Hollins, Corbin, or Vogel. I cannot, however, see the argument for the 1 2nd place vote Monty Williams got.
   66. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 01, 2012 at 04:46 PM (#4121031)
Not to put too fine a point on it, but Carmelo's rep is a product of the eye test, right?
The image of him carrying Syracuse to a national title made an enduring impression on fans. Obviously, if he could do that at the college level as a freshman, surely he can repeat that feat in the pros, right? Right?
   67. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: May 01, 2012 at 04:46 PM (#4121032)
I think Monty Williams did a good job in a terrible situation. Gordon only played a handful of games, but the Hornets still felt competitive more often that not. This isn't to say he should have gotten a vote for COY, but I think he's a good coach.

Good for Pops, I have no problem with him winning.
   68. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 01, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4121033)
The image of him carrying Syracuse to a national title made an enduring impression on fans. Obviously, if he could do that at the college level as a freshman, surely he can repeat that feat in the pros, right? Right?


Not without sparkplug Hakim Warrick! The Knicks are one piece away!
   69. andrewberg Posted: May 01, 2012 at 04:51 PM (#4121035)
Not without sparkplug Hakim Warrick! The Knicks are one piece away!


They need to dump that bum Tyson Chandler and get a real defensive anchor like Craig Forth.
   70. Conor Posted: May 01, 2012 at 04:54 PM (#4121038)
Man did I love that team.
   71. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: May 01, 2012 at 04:56 PM (#4121042)
I cannot, however, see the argument for the 1 2nd place vote Monty Williams got.

Let's see, the Clippers went from .390 last year to .629 this year. Therefore if a team that adds Chris Paul gets .239 better, a team that loses Chris Paul should get .239 worse. Whereas the Hornets actually got .243 worse, going from .561 last year to .318 this year. Since the main player they traded Paul for was injured this whole season, that actually constitutes an improvement, normalized to the second derivative of relative wins.

On the other hand, media reports suggest that the Clippers experienced that massive improvement with no coach at all, so one might expect a Coach Of The Year candidate to significantly outperform the expected CP3 effect.
   72. Der-K, the bloodied charmer Posted: May 01, 2012 at 04:58 PM (#4121044)
Anthony has a better jumper than LeBron and is a better ball handler and low post guy than Durant.
(This is surreal for me - arguing for Carmelo. Anyway, AROM's 57 sums it up well.)

I think maybe Lebron is just so physically dominant people don't give him as much credit for his scoring as they should?

Absolutely.

Monty Williams did a heck of a job this year, imo.
   73. Famous Original Joe C Posted: May 01, 2012 at 05:05 PM (#4121054)
Anthony has a better jumper than LeBron

Does he even, though? Lebron has a better eFG% over the past two years on jumpers than Carmelo according to 82games.com.
   74. Famous Original Joe C Posted: May 01, 2012 at 05:08 PM (#4121056)
Anybody want to buy an Amare t-shirt?
   75. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: May 01, 2012 at 05:26 PM (#4121073)
Anthony has a better jumper than LeBron

First time using Play Index+

LeBron on jump shots from 10-22 ft is at 41.4% ('12) 44.5% ('11) 38.3% ('10). Melo over those same years is 38.7%, 41.5%, 40.9% respectively.
   76. robinred Posted: May 01, 2012 at 05:26 PM (#4121074)
I observed about a year or so ago that basically all elite players who are "holy crap" physical specimens/jocks wind up having their drive/focus/toughness questioned at some point in their careers. Examples include Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar, O'Neal, Robinson, Karl Malone, Howard, and James. Blake Griffin is starting to get a little of it too, although there are also measurable flaws in his game.

It generally dissipates dramatically when said players win a title, although not always.

I'm always confused why, with so many smart people and mostly excellent analysis here, there is so much emphasis here on the garbage spewed by the MSM. Why can't we talk about basketball, instead of what someone (EDIT: some) clown from ESPN is saying about basketball?


Well, multiple conversations can go on at once. A couple of other points:

1. It is normal fan behavior, smart fan or otherwise, to be frustrated by MSM or other narratives that they believe short-sell the achievements or abilities of players and teams that they respect and/or like. Basically all the regulars in the thread have responded in that way at one time or another to perceived slights of their teams or guys, both inside and outside of the thread.
2. This is a pretty smart crew, but other than Pelton, who is sort of a guest-celebrity poster and maybe DK and a couple of other guys, most of the analysis done here, while pretty good, is qualitative. People here do check out websites and use stats to back up points, but I am not aware of anyone here doing serious NBA research on a regular basis, so jabbing at MSM guys sort of goes along with that.
   77. Der-K, the bloodied charmer Posted: May 01, 2012 at 05:44 PM (#4121082)
LeBron on jump shots from 10-22 ft is at 41.4% ('12) 44.5% ('11) 38.3% ('10). Melo over those same years is 38.7%, 41.5%, 40.9% respectively.


I just conducted a similar check (using Hoopdata). Melo, outside of '12, gets the edge on threes and free throws (which isn't a jumper, but you know what I mean), but I admit surprise to the 10'+ data. Part of it is that Melo had a rough year, dragging down his numbers - part of it is James getting better with those shots with the move to Miami (whether from improving his shot or getting cleaner looks). For example, James has shot 46% from 10-15 feet over the last two seasons. Over the previous four from that range, he'd shot 32%. Similarly, though less dramatically, he's shot 42% from 16-23 with Miami, where he was at 38% over the preceding four seasons.

In short, I'll stand by my previous comment, granted that you give me access to a time machine. Short of that, I should profess agnosticism.

Of further note - the percentage of Carmelo's 10+ foot jumpers that have been assisted has fallen pretty dramatically. 2007: 61%, 2008: 62%, 2009: 50%, 2010: 42%, 2011: 49% (47% DEN, 53% NYK), 2012: 38%. (For LeBron: 30% with both Cleveland and Miami). Not sure how the chicken and egg works with this and the previous note.

***

I'd call what I do qualitative, but thanks!
   78. Booey Posted: May 01, 2012 at 05:50 PM (#4121086)
Corbin got a 2nd place vote and 6 3rd places. I could see an argument for any of Pop, Thibs, Hollins, Corbin, or Vogel. I cannot, however, see the argument for the 1 2nd place vote Monty Williams got.


Oh good. I guess I should've actually read the article rather than just looking at the numbers posted in #56. My bad.

Clicking on the actual link now, I think it's funny that SVG got some sympathy votes for having to deal with Howard's shiite.
   79. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: May 01, 2012 at 05:55 PM (#4121090)
Melo, outside of '12, gets the edge on threes

Off the top of my head I'm fairly certain LeBron is the better 3 point shooter of the two or was this a typo?
   80. Conor Posted: May 01, 2012 at 06:06 PM (#4121096)
I think they are both right in the low 30's.

Edit: I could've just looked it up. Lebron career 33.1%, Melo 32.2%
   81. Maxwn Posted: May 01, 2012 at 06:07 PM (#4121097)
Off the top of my head I'm fairly certain LeBron is the better 3 point shooter of the two or was this a typo?

First four years of their career, Lebron was a better percentage and was essentially serviceable from 3 while Carmelo was just bad. Last 4 years, Melo improved and was actually a pretty decent shooter from 3 while Lebron stayed about the same. This year Lebron shot the best he ever has while Melo dropped off a bit. Lebron always took significantly more until he got to Miami and Carmelo got to NY. This year, Melo actually took more, which is the only time in their careers that has been true.
   82. Maxwn Posted: May 01, 2012 at 06:13 PM (#4121100)
The short version is that Carmelo is .322 career but has spent half his career much worse, probably around .280 or something. Then he was around .350 for 4 years. Lebron is .331 and has shot pretty close to that every year but this year. Lebron shot 4-5 a game in Cleveland but has dialed it down to around 3 in Miami. Carmelo shot about 2 a game in Denver, but is up around 4 in NY.
   83. Der-K, the bloodied charmer Posted: May 01, 2012 at 06:20 PM (#4121104)
Right. Carmelo had shot 35.6% from three over the four seasons leading into this one (where he shot 33.5%) - James' career high was 35.1% in his age 20 season (now 36.2%).
That said, James never shot that poorly either - post-rookie career low is 31.5% and his average for that four year stretch was 33.1%, not that much worse than Melo, using what would be the optimal criteria to support a pro-Anthony argument.

EDIT: Or what Maxwn said.
   84. baudib Posted: May 01, 2012 at 07:01 PM (#4121133)
LeBron is the most underrated player of all time, I think. Very few people seem to understand how historically great he is. There just has never been that kind of combination of power and agility and ball-handling ability and defense in the NBA and I'm not sure anyone has ever really been close.

Guys like Kobe, Bird, Magic are all-time greats and leaders and have multiple championships and it's ridiculous to say but I don't think they are in the same class of players.

Even if you account for some sort of choking factor he's easily a top-10 all-time and probably top 5.


   85. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 01, 2012 at 07:12 PM (#4121144)
Branding critique of the new Nets logo. Spoiler: they don't like it. Link includes pictures of related apparel. One of the designers who worked on the t-shirts actually contributed to the comment section.



   86. Booey Posted: May 01, 2012 at 07:28 PM (#4121166)
LeBron is the most underrated player of all time, I think. Very few people seem to understand how historically great he is.


I don't know. I think most everyone does acknowledge that he's got the ability and numbers of an all time great; they're just waiting for him to win a ring or two before they anoint him as such. Fair or not, "count the ringzz!!!" has always been a huge factor in how people seem to view NBA careers.
   87. Maxwn Posted: May 01, 2012 at 07:38 PM (#4121171)
If very few people are aware of how amazing Lebron is, then why has "the team that has Lebron" been more or less the consensus title favorites for like 4 straight years? The whole reason he gets as much crap about the rings as he does is because everyone has been expecting him to just steamroll the league in the playoffs since '08.

   88. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 01, 2012 at 07:51 PM (#4121191)
Oh, for chrissakes. Pietrus picks up THREE fouls in less than five minutes. Roster's thin as it is without Rondo and Allen. Don't these guys think at all?
   89. Maxwn Posted: May 01, 2012 at 08:06 PM (#4121201)
Oh, for chrissakes. Pietrus picks up THREE fouls in less than five minutes. Roster's thin as it is without Rondo and Allen. Don't these guys think at all?

Damn man, you almost sound like you're rooting for the Celtics.
   90. robinred Posted: May 01, 2012 at 08:09 PM (#4121204)
Damn man, you almost sound like you're rooting for the Celtics.


Maybe his brother hacked in and is using his handle.
   91. Maxwn Posted: May 01, 2012 at 08:13 PM (#4121209)
Maybe his brother hacked in and is using his handle.

We're onto to you, Los Angeles El Hombre's Brother of Anaheim.
   92. smileyy Posted: May 01, 2012 at 08:24 PM (#4121219)
There just has never been that kind of combination of power and agility and ball-handling ability and defense in the NBA and I'm not sure anyone has ever really been close.


The great NBA players that really excite me about the game are the ones that have these freakish physical attributes. In my NBA-watching fandom, off the top of my head, these guys are Jordan, Pippen, Hakeem, Shaq and LeBron.
   93. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 01, 2012 at 08:29 PM (#4121228)
Damn man, you almost sound like you're rooting for the Celtics.
I'm not. It's just that Pietrus was so astonishingly dumb that it compelled me to comment.
   94. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: May 01, 2012 at 08:34 PM (#4121235)
Right as I was about to login and ##### about how the Hawks always do this crap and play down when they have the "advantage" they reel off 8 unanswered after the timeout and claw ahead by 4. ####### Hawks.
   95. Famous Original Joe C Posted: May 01, 2012 at 08:35 PM (#4121239)
In what universe is Josh Smith likable to anyone but a Hawks fan? Did anyone see that show part missed dunk?
   96. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: May 01, 2012 at 08:36 PM (#4121240)
Also the "Scout" feature of MLB.com's Gameday feed is the stupidest goddamned thing in the history of the world. And I'm counting the "Jackass" movies.
   97. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: May 01, 2012 at 08:37 PM (#4121244)
In what universe is Josh Smith likable to anyone but a Hawks fan?


I would imagine the same universe in which Kevin Garnett is likable to anyone but Celtics fans.
   98. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: May 01, 2012 at 08:39 PM (#4121246)
Good Christ that's a small lineup on the floor right now. Technically Josh Smith is the C.
   99. Maxwn Posted: May 01, 2012 at 08:41 PM (#4121247)
In what universe is Josh Smith likable to anyone but a Hawks fan? Did anyone see that show part missed dunk?

Meh, what's specifically unlikable about a missed dunk? He went for the highlight reel dunk and missed. Certainly dumb, but unlikeable...eh. He's entertaining, often because he's entertainingly dumb, but still, he's easily the most interesting player on that Hawks team.

In other words, it is the universe where you don't have to dislike a guy just for being kind of a moron.
   100. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: May 01, 2012 at 08:45 PM (#4121249)
In other words, it is the universe where you don't have to dislike a guy just for being kind of a moron.


Like, I'm not sure if Shane Victorino is a moron or not, but I hate that little prick regardless. Ya know?
Page 1 of 24 pages  1 2 3 4 5 6 >  Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Andere Richtingen
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogJ.R. Gamble: Albert Pujols' 500-Homer Chase Is A Bore, But That's Baseball's Fault
(28 - 5:29am, Apr 23)
Last: cardsfanboy

NewsblogJosh Lueke Is A Rapist, You Say? Keep Saying It.
(11 - 5:26am, Apr 23)
Last: You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR)

NewsblogCameron: Numbers don't lie: The decline of Pujols is stunning
(210 - 5:23am, Apr 23)
Last: Bunny Vincennes

NewsblogMartin Maldonado suspended
(34 - 5:19am, Apr 23)
Last: Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad)

NewsblogOT: The NHL is finally back thread, part 2
(189 - 4:27am, Apr 23)
Last: Flynn

NewsblogThe Baseball Equivalent of Hitting on 16 | FanGraphs Baseball
(25 - 3:59am, Apr 23)
Last: LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series)

NewsblogRoyals G.M. Dayton Moore believes hitting will come around
(6 - 3:18am, Apr 23)
Last: LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series)

NewsblogMike Trout And Bryce Harper Are Baseball’s Best Young Position-Player Duo Ever
(9 - 2:57am, Apr 23)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogOMNICHATTER for APRIL 22, 2014
(90 - 2:20am, Apr 23)
Last: Joyful Calculus Instructor

NewsblogOT: The Soccer Thread March, 2014
(1048 - 1:51am, Apr 23)
Last: Richard

NewsblogOT: NBA Monthly Thread - April 2014
(468 - 1:05am, Apr 23)
Last: robinred

NewsblogOTP April 2014: BurstNET Sued for Not Making Equipment Lease Payments
(2054 - 12:45am, Apr 23)
Last: Morty Causa

Jim's Lab NotesWe're Moved! (And Burst.net can bite me!)
(106 - 12:37am, Apr 23)
Last: Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman

NewsblogDaniel Bryan's 'YES!' chant has spread to the Pirates' dugout
(176 - 12:33am, Apr 23)
Last: STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum

NewsblogESPN: W. P. Kinsella: Where It Began: “Shoeless Joe”
(82 - 11:54pm, Apr 22)
Last: Perry

Demarini, Easton and TPX Baseball Bats

 

 

 

 

Page rendered in 0.5254 seconds
52 querie(s) executed