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Tuesday, May 01, 2012

OT: NBA Monthly Thread, May 2012

I estimate that only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what the site is really about: Bryce Harper getting mooned by a Dodgers fan, how dumb interleague baseball is, or random spamming of Yankees/RedSox news that barely counts as news.

Tripon Posted: May 01, 2012 at 10:28 AM | 2330 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1001. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: May 16, 2012 at 08:17 PM (#4133416)
The Spurs are like a great big band and the Thunder are like a jazz combo. I really hope we see them play each other.


I love this analogy.
   1002. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 16, 2012 at 08:58 PM (#4133458)
This was the game I expected to see twice in Boston.
   1003. baudib Posted: May 16, 2012 at 09:20 PM (#4133483)
However, I like the matchups against the Celtics and I think the Sixers have a decent shot at blowing them out at home.

Or vice vers
   1004. steagles Posted: May 16, 2012 at 10:06 PM (#4133582)
This was the game I expected to see twice in Boston.
i think boston missed all of 6 shots in the 2nd and 3rd quarters. they went just completely unconscious from the field, and they were led by their best players. 27 from garnett, 24 from pierce, 23 from rondo, all on 27/50 from floor. this whole game was just a complete massacre by those 3.

elton brand only played 14 minutes in the game, and he was beyond awful. he has no explosion right now, his jumper isn't falling, and he's getting killed by garnett on defense. he's adding absolutely nothing to this team right now, and it's really dragging them down.


having said that, as awful as he's been in this series, there's just absolutely no chance of collins doing what needs to be done on that front by giving his spot in the starting lineup to thaddeus young. if there's any change that's gonna be made, it'll obviously be to replace evan turner with jodie meeks (again, for the third time, despite it not really being all that effective the first two times).


i'll be interested to see what happens on friday. they got hit in the mouth tonight, but they've already shown growth by recovering from those kinds of shots this postseason, so what i'll be looking to see from them in game 4 is whether they can come back and do it once again.
   1005. PJ Martinez Posted: May 16, 2012 at 10:45 PM (#4133618)
From that SI piece about Duncan: "Duncan's lifetime numbers versus Garnett's teams, by the way: 19.4 points per game, 11.6 boards and a 44--17 record, including the postseason." This after saying that Garnett does weird things to try to make Duncan angry, and that, whenever a player does that, "Duncan destroys you."

Duncan's career numbers: 20.3 points per game, 11.3 boards. And a record of 44-17 is pretty much right in line with the Spurs' winning percentage for the duration of Duncan's career.
   1006. tshipman Posted: May 16, 2012 at 11:39 PM (#4133651)
You guys are just disappointed in Duncan's numbers because you're not factoring in the AMAZING TEAM DEFENSE in those stats.

/still annoyed over the Duncan/Shaq discussion from months ago.
   1007. tshipman Posted: May 17, 2012 at 12:29 AM (#4133659)
Well, that game went about how I expected it to.

I anticipate more tokes from the objective pipe for Mr. Bryant.
   1008. Booey Posted: May 17, 2012 at 12:43 AM (#4133664)
Awesome 30-29 second half. All the LAL/OKC game needed was a bench clearing brawl and it would've been a perfect 90's Knicks/Heat re-enactment.
   1009. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: May 17, 2012 at 07:45 AM (#4133710)
"Duncan's lifetime numbers versus Garnett's teams, by the way: 19.4 points per game, 11.6 boards and a 44--17 record, including the postseason." This after saying that Garnett does weird things to try to make Duncan angry, and that, whenever a player does that, "Duncan destroys you."

Duncan's career numbers: 20.3 points per game, 11.3 boards.
Maintaining your career averages when you have Kevin Garnett playing defense against you is pretty impressive. Maybe not "he gets this look on his face that I can immediately recognize" impressive, but it ain't nothing.
   1010. PJ Martinez Posted: May 17, 2012 at 08:38 AM (#4133720)
Maintaining your career averages when you have Kevin Garnett playing defense against you is pretty impressive. Maybe not "he gets this look on his face that I can immediately recognize" impressive, but it ain't nothing.

That's a good point. Though given the widely varying quality of the teams Garnett has been on in his career, simply maintaining the same winning percentage that one would generally expect from the Spurs against them is not that great. Mostly it bugs me that Ballard, a writer who from what I know is typically quite good, would quote those numbers without acknowledging what they indicate -- that Duncan put up his usual stat line against Garnett, and his team did about as well as you would probably expect.
   1011. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: May 17, 2012 at 09:04 AM (#4133734)
So it appears to me that the Sixers were wearing Lakers uniforms last night, the C's were dressed as the Thunder, the Thunder were the C's and the Lakers were the Sixers.

That would explain the final scores to me better than what actually happened.
   1012. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: May 17, 2012 at 11:13 AM (#4133852)
Duncan is so awesome. He's like the Hannibal Lecter of the NBA; his heartrate never goes above 65.

   1013. andrewberg Posted: May 17, 2012 at 11:35 AM (#4133868)
I am thoroughly enjoying the throwback KG performance with so many Celtics banged up and the rest of the team struggling offensively. Through 9 games, he is putting up a time machine line of 20.3-11-2.1 on 55% shooting. Also, his 25.6 PER and .262 WS/48 are the best of any postseason of his career. You can see it on the court, too. He is going inside more than he has since he got to Boston, and he has been incredibly active defensively. Say what you want about the guy's psychological issues; at least we are getting a brief recreation of one of the best players of the era at his peak.
   1014. JuanGone..except1game Posted: May 17, 2012 at 11:42 AM (#4133874)
I have to say, few Lakers lossess have left me in a worse state than last nights including any in last year's Dallas debacle. Wow, that last 3 minutes felt like walking the plank.
   1015. rr Posted: May 17, 2012 at 11:48 AM (#4133880)
Zach Lowe breaks down Miami on O at the end of the Miami/Inidana game:

http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2012/05/16/lebron-james-heat/?sct=nba_bf2_a4

Taken together, it’s fair to look at this last minute and wonder about James’ desire to act as a scorer in crunch time. The evidence isn’t as clear-cut as the howling critics would like — remember James crashing the glass, shooting a three and missing a layup in the last 3:30 — but there is a tentativeness to his play in the final 90 seconds, something the Miami coaching staff might be feeding a bit with its play-calling.

That said, the Heat lost for two reasons that will dog them throughout this series against a surly Pacers team:


1. Their supporting cast contributed nothing. It’s important to remember in evaluating James’ overall performance that Miami would not have been in this game without him. James was the best player on both ends of the floor, working his tail off to score against Indiana’s strong defense, fronting West and keying an active defense that was simply too fast for the Pacers. He and Wade combined to shoot 18-of-44 (40.9 percent); the rest of the Heat hit 9-of-34 (26.5 percent).

2. The Heat’s offense has regressed badly in the last four quarters without power forward Chris Bosh, who is out indefinitely after straining an abdominal muscle in the second quarter of Game 1. Some of this is directly linked to Bosh’s absence, and not only because his jump shooting opens the floor. Some of Miami’s most creative motion-based sets, involving all three stars working off each other, just don’t function without Bosh.
   1016. rr Posted: May 17, 2012 at 11:58 AM (#4133895)
few Lakers lossess have left me in a worse state


Very tough loss from a narrative/emotional standpoint. Blew the lead, likely blew any shot at challenging in the series. Kobe was awful the last two minutes, which energizes the Trolls and the Haters. Fisher's replacements failed to provide impactful play, and one of them did not hit the big shot*. Got two "I almost broke my TV" emails from IRL Lakerpals.

But...my big-picture take is that if they had won, it would have been sort of like when they beat the Bulls by 1 in Chicago in Game 1 of the 91 Finals. This Thunder team is not as good as that Bulls team, but IMO the dynamic is similar.

* Steve Blake's wife, Kristen, is a sunny-dispositioned Christian who does a lot of charity stuff and is active on Twitter. She Tweeted last night (I saw a ReTweet) that she "blocked 500 people" since she apparently was getting a lot of profane, nasty stuff coming her way about her hubby being a clown and a choker and a loser etc. Downside of the internet age.

   1017. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: May 17, 2012 at 12:08 PM (#4133908)
1013 - I am too (Garnett)

Nice seeing you again, bl...
   1018. andrewberg Posted: May 17, 2012 at 12:18 PM (#4133921)
One thing that was odd to me in the OKC-LAL game: when the Thunder got the ball down one with about 36 seconds left, I thought they should definitely try for a 2-for-1. I usually hear coaches say that they want to have at least 4 seconds, so you want to get the shot off by about 29 or 30 to account for the rebound. Westbrook had the ball on the wing, about 18 feet out, with 31 seconds on the clock. I know he hadn't had a great shooting night, but he has been pretty consistent with that elbow jumper in the postseason, especially when he has a chance to set his feet like he did there. Durant's floater made it a moot point, but at the time I thought Westbrook should have taken that midrange shot to gain a possession.
   1019. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: May 17, 2012 at 12:26 PM (#4133930)
I don't know if the whole SI article is online or not yet, but Jabari Parker is one of the more interesting HS basketball players I can remember.
   1020. Booey Posted: May 17, 2012 at 12:59 PM (#4133954)
#1019 - Ah, indoor (usually carpeted) church B-Ball courts...That's where my bro's and I learned to play as well. Good memories...

Good article, too.
   1021. Backlasher Posted: May 17, 2012 at 01:35 PM (#4133997)
Westbrook had the ball on the wing, about 18 feet out, with 31 seconds on the clock. I know he hadn't had a great shooting night, but he has been pretty consistent with that elbow jumper in the postseason, especially when he has a chance to set his feet like he did there.

I missed this real time. I tried to find some video to see if I could find any video of the incident. I found thisvideo that starts about 29 seconds out. It shows Westbrook with the ball down toward the baseline on the wing with about 29 seconds. I don't know if he had an opportunity in the few seconds before this video. If this is the sequence, I think the Thunder did try to get him an elbow jumper. You can see the high pick just below the 3 point line; however, Kobe was able to go on top of this pick. I think that pushed Westbrook a little off his normal range.

The most interesting thing about this clip is when its taken in conjunction with Scott Brooks postgame comments, and the recent news memes about heroball or the converse "stars not wanting the ball"). Brooks intimated that Durant was being too unselfish. As I recall it was something to the effect of "Don't pass up the shot for a shot that is only equally as good." If you watch the play, Westbrook floats down for a wide open corner three. The Thunder were spaced where he could have swung the ball around to him before the Lakers could recover. Durant chooses to take a floater over Pau.

IMHO, that was still the right decision, but I'm a bit of a Durant fanboy.

Steve Blake's wife, Kristen, is a sunny-dispositioned Christian who does a lot of charity stuff and is active on Twitter. She Tweeted last night (I saw a ReTweet) that she "blocked 500 people" since she apparently was getting a lot of profane, nasty stuff coming her way about her hubby being a clown and a choker and a loser etc. Downside of the internet age.

Thats too bad. That was the right play. Blake is going to make a large percentage of those open shots.

Nice seeing you again, bl...

Nice seeing everyone too. And thanks to others for the kind words.

All the LAL/OKC game needed was a bench clearing brawl and it would've been a perfect 90's Knicks/Heat re-enactment.

I like physical basketball, but my only concern is what happens in the future. Too often the refs let teams play for a couple of games, then get into a ticky-tack stage. There were even spurts ticky-tacky last night. I realize that professionals have to adjust, but it makes it very frustrating to watch. Right now, neither team is being a shrinking violet. While there is a bit of holding, it doesn't look like anyone is getting hurt and the teams are playing through the physicality. I don't mind the post players grabbing on each other's jerseys as long as they keep it clean in the open court and wings.



   1022. andrewberg Posted: May 17, 2012 at 02:52 PM (#4134082)
I found thisvideo that starts about 29 seconds out.


Yeah, the situation I was referring to was about 2-3 seconds before that. I agree that in the clip he is probably outside is comfort zone, but he had the ball FT line extended with Kobe a good 4 ft off of him and his feet squared up. I was watching in a bar, so maybe my view wasn't perfect (couldn't rewind or anything). Anyway, they worked it out pretty well.
   1023. Srul Itza Posted: May 17, 2012 at 08:37 PM (#4134411)
Wade 1-10 through the middle of the 3d Quarter.

Pacers-Celtics, anyone?
   1024. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: May 17, 2012 at 09:00 PM (#4134439)
Teflon Wade playing like absolute #### and having to be restrained while yelling at his coach.
   1025. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: May 17, 2012 at 09:03 PM (#4134441)
LeBron deserves better teammates than these! I'm 92% joking!
   1026. puck Posted: May 17, 2012 at 09:26 PM (#4134453)
#1019 - Ah, indoor (usually carpeted) church B-Ball courts...That's where my bro's and I learned to play as well. Good memories...


I remember those...very clean basketballs and soles of shoes, nasty floorburns, and when you were tired it was much easier to trip as you dragged your feet.
   1027. PJ Martinez Posted: May 17, 2012 at 09:34 PM (#4134464)
And Spoelstra pulls the starters. Game over.
   1028. Srul Itza Posted: May 17, 2012 at 09:46 PM (#4134479)
If it was possible to feel sorry for LeBron, I would almost feel sorry for him.
   1029. Famous Original Joe C Posted: May 17, 2012 at 10:41 PM (#4134541)
Ridiculous flop by Parker there to get Paul his 3rd foul.

There's another one on Griffin. Next time down the floor: Parker pushed off Griffin, then tossed his arm in the air, took several steps, and fell down for no reason, somehow drawing the foul.

He's a great player, but I hate that ####.
   1030. Booey Posted: May 17, 2012 at 10:47 PM (#4134547)
#1019 - Ah, indoor (usually carpeted) church B-Ball courts...That's where my bro's and I learned to play as well. Good memories...

I remember those...very clean basketballs and soles of shoes, nasty floorburns, and when you were tired it was much easier to trip as you dragged your feet.


Yeah, I think carpeted courts are pretty much the basketball equivalent of astroturf; just a torn ACL waiting to happen (though to be fair, I guess, only one of the 3 times I tore my ACL was actually on one of these courts).
   1031. Booey Posted: May 17, 2012 at 11:14 PM (#4134566)
Ridiculous flop by Parker there to get Paul his 3rd foul.

There's another one on Griffin. Next time down the floor: Parker pushed off Griffin, then tossed his arm in the air, took several steps, and fell down for no reason, somehow drawing the foul.

He's a great player, but I hate that ####.


Yeah, but it's hard to have too much sympathy for the Clips when they're on the wrong end of calls like this when Griffin and Paul are two of the most blatant floppers in the league.
   1032. rr Posted: May 18, 2012 at 02:35 AM (#4134621)
I am thinking about cancelling Insider and moving over to BaskPro. I am not interested in all the college stuff, but BaskPro is starting to look like a better expenditure to me.

San Antonio is making Hollinger look spot-on and is shutting me up so far. Miami really needs Bosh--I mentioned after G1 it might wind up being Indiana benefitting from the injuries in MIA and CHI.

Rank the following in order of importance in today's NBA:

Flopping
Tanking
Kobe/Crunch Time
LeBron's psyche
   1033. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 18, 2012 at 06:17 AM (#4134661)
LeBron deserves better teammates than these! I'm 92% joking!

LeBron deserves the ####### Washington Wizards minus John Wall.

--------------------------------------------------------------

If it was possible to feel sorry for LeBron, I would almost feel sorry for him.

#### LeBron James and the crippled horse he rode in on.
   1034. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: May 18, 2012 at 06:26 AM (#4134665)
Pacers-Celtics, anyone?


I have no clue who'd win that series, especially with a gimpy PP, but if the Celtics make the finals again then the 2007 deals for Garnett and Allen will have worked out as well as they possibly could have.
   1035. thok Posted: May 18, 2012 at 06:40 AM (#4134667)
Unless Tony Parker and Russell Westbrook manage to injure each other on the same play in the Western Conference Finals*, it doesn't matter who would win Pacers-Celtics.

(*Or some other injuries equally as bad to the Spurs and Thunder.)
   1036. PJ Martinez Posted: May 18, 2012 at 07:57 AM (#4134683)
Well, sure, it might not matter if you think all that matters is who wins the whole thing in the end. But that seems like a very boring approach to the NBA playoffs, and I think Pacers-Celtics would be an interesting series.

Still a long way to go, obviously, for both teams.

And robin, I'd definitely rank flopping first. None of those others is that important to me -- though I am fascinated by LeBron's psyche. I might put that second.
   1037. Kurt Posted: May 18, 2012 at 08:48 AM (#4134701)
I have no clue who'd win that series, especially with a gimpy PP, but if the Celtics make the finals again then the 2007 deals for Garnett and Allen will have worked out as well as they possibly could have.

The Celtics could lose the next three games to the Sixers by 40 points a pop, and the Garnett/Allen trades would still have worked out as well as they possibly could have.
   1038. JC in DC Posted: May 18, 2012 at 08:55 AM (#4134703)
Actually, the order Robin has it in seems about right. I might switch the last two, but only the first two are systemic issues.
   1039. Joey B. "disrespects the A" Posted: May 18, 2012 at 09:35 AM (#4134738)
If it was possible to feel sorry for LeBron, I would almost feel sorry for him.

I feel sorry for all the suckers out there who fell victim to the Great LeBron Hype Machine early on. Because it's pretty freaking obvious at this point that LeBron is not the second coming of Michael Jordan. Even if the Heat go on to win the championship this year, James is not even close to Michael Jordan, and he's never going to be either.
   1040. Kurt Posted: May 18, 2012 at 09:52 AM (#4134757)
I feel sorry for all the suckers out there who fell victim to the Great LeBron Hype Machine early on. Because it's pretty freaking obvious at this point that LeBron is not the second coming of Michael Jordan. Even if the Heat go on to win the championship this year, James is not even close to Michael Jordan, and he's never going to be either.

So, he's a top ten all-time player instead of a top one all-time player? That seems okay to me, hype-fulfillment-wise.
   1041. JC in DC Posted: May 18, 2012 at 09:53 AM (#4134760)
A player I've really grown to like is David West. For whatever reasons, I didn't really like him or take interest in him when he was in NO and just assumed his good numbers were nothing special, but I really like him. He seems very smart and really committed to helping his team win, not only on the court, but by his presence. I've become a fan. He's made me a fan of this Indiana team.

Larry Bird is a pretty smart guy himself. He's put together a really interesting group of players.
   1042. Darren Posted: May 18, 2012 at 10:09 AM (#4134782)
I don't watch a lot of NBA, so I'm wondering about the flopping issue. Do people not think players should try to draw charges? Or that they should be penalized for falling over when they are not actually getting charged?

It seems to me that, whatever the case, it falls on the refs. Let the players flop around all that they want to--just don't call a charge. And/or start calling charges on plays where players don't actually fall on their back. That will stop the flopping.
   1043. Booey Posted: May 18, 2012 at 10:33 AM (#4134804)
It seems to me that, whatever the case, it falls on the refs. Let the players flop around all that they want to--just don't call a charge. And/or start calling charges on plays where players don't actually fall on their back. That will stop the flopping.


Exactly. All the proposed penalties I've heard people mention for flopping - fines, techs, etc - they're all unnecessary. Just don't call it, and players will eventually catch on and stop doing it. Hell, if I were an NBA ref, I might not even call a legit foul if I thought the receiving player was trying too hard to oversell it.

It's like the body armor/HBP thing in baseball. Remember when there was talk of possibly banning thick elbow pads and stuff unless the player had a pre-existing injury? Seriously? They want to ban safety equipment that could prevent injuries? Just follow the rulebook and don't award a batter first base if he sticks his padded elbow into a pitch deliberately. Problem solved.

Sometimes the easiest solution is also the best one.
   1044. Booey Posted: May 18, 2012 at 10:35 AM (#4134807)
Larry Bird is a pretty smart guy himself. He's put together a really interesting group of players.


C'mon, Indy! Let's make Stern's head explode with a Pacers vs Spurs/Thunder Finals!
   1045. tshipman Posted: May 18, 2012 at 10:37 AM (#4134813)
I don't watch a lot of NBA, so I'm wondering about the flopping issue. Do people not think players should try to draw charges? Or that they should be penalized for falling over when they are not actually getting charged?


I don't think most people have a problem with drawing charges (well, except for Kobe). Charges are a legit basketball play. Personally, when I talk about flopping, I don't think about charging as much as I do the plays like this.

I feel like those kind of histrionics are what are a bit ridiculous.
   1046. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: May 18, 2012 at 10:54 AM (#4134837)
It seems to me that, whatever the case, it falls on the refs. Let the players flop around all that they want to--just don't call a charge. And/or start calling charges on plays where players don't actually fall on their back. That will stop the flopping.


Agreed-you almost have to fall over backwards in order to draw the charging call.
   1047. Backlasher Posted: May 18, 2012 at 10:59 AM (#4134843)
The Celtics could lose the next three games to the Sixers by 40 points a pop, and the Garnett/Allen trades would still have worked out as well as they possibly could have.

As I recall, most people always liked the Garnett deal. The Allen deal was initially a head-scratcher. They C's did not yet have Garnett in place. They were trading for a very expensive shooting guard, and shooting guards do not always age too well. They had to give up another shooter, a promising young guard, and a lottery pick player that most people were excited about. Wally had an off year, but he was still good for the high teens in points, and excluding the bad year, shot at a very high percentage. Delonte was a good perimeter defender. Green looked like a complete player based on his last year in college.

Giving up that much future and taking back that much salary was big. It was especially big for a team that was 24-58. It wouldn't appear that Allen would be enough to put them over the top. It looked like they were going to run with a core of Pierce-Allen-Big Al. Baby was an interesting player in the deal, but I don't think many thought he would give them very much production.

Garnett was always a good deal. While Gomes has always been a productive player, he doesn't seem like he should be a productive player. He's a bit undersized. You didn't run plays for him, and he picked up his points around the basket. He's a guy you may like to have, but he's not part of a core. I think the C's were happy to get rid of Bassy; he never really fit the team. The only issue was the future and Big Al, but there was (and is) still too much value from Garnett not to make that deal.

IMHO, the bigger question will soon be about the deals the Celtics did not make. Supposedly, they almost moved Pierce for Oker and a pick and they could have moved Allen for OJ Mayo and a lower pick. So for Pierce its 15 Million in salary space. I'm not sure who you shop for with that money. Most of the marquee free agents are PGs, and I presume the Cs stand pat with Rondo at PG. They likely are going to need a post player. Would they try to get in a bidding war for some of the restricted free agents like Lopez or Hibbert? The pick is likely to be in the Harrison Barnes, Bradley Beal, Austin Rivers (see note on Rondo), Perry Jones range. For Allen, they were allegedly holding out for Cunningham, Conley, and Selby in the deal.

   1048. Jimmy P Posted: May 18, 2012 at 11:01 AM (#4134847)
LeBron deserves the ####### Washington Wizards minus John Wall.


He already had that in Cleveland. I'm pretty sure he also didn't think he'd be moving to the exact same team in Miami. But right now, Wade's playing like Larry Hughes.

C'mon, Indy! Let's make Stern's head explode with a Pacers vs Spurs/Thunder Finals!


I don't think they'd mind the Thunder too much. Durant and Westbrook probably draw. But, Spurs - Pacers would be the NBA's nightmare scenario. Hollinger joked those games would be on tape delay on NBATV.
   1049. Backlasher Posted: May 18, 2012 at 11:18 AM (#4134871)
It's like the body armor/HBP thing in baseball. Remember when there was talk of possibly banning thick elbow pads and stuff unless the player had a pre-existing injury? Seriously? They want to ban safety equipment that could prevent injuries? Just follow the rulebook and don't award a batter first base if he sticks his padded elbow into a pitch deliberately. Problem solved.

IMHO, the analogy would be more like a catcher jerking his glove into the strike zone.

I don't think most people have a problem with drawing charges (well, except for Kobe). Charges are a legit basketball play. Personally, when I talk about flopping, I don't think about charging as much as I do the plays like this.

I feel like those kind of histrionics are what are a bit ridiculous.


I probably care less about flopping then many others. Nevertheless, I understand Stern's point. Deceiving your opponent is a basketball play; deceiving the referee is not a basketball play. I'm not sure I just want to "put it on the refs" because I think the quality of officiating may be one of the bigger problems in the NBA.

The fact that Stern is able to have people talk about LeBron's psyche or Mamba's Personality is making Stern a very happy man. I think the quality of officiating was a bit worse this year, you just don't hear as much about it b/c Phil Jackson is out of the NBA and Mark Cuban is out of money :)

Based on the speed of the plays, the referees are looking for certain visual cues when they make a call. IMHO, its the deception and not the histrionics that cause the greatest concern.

I don't know how they teach players these days, but there was a time when you were taught that taking a charge involved taking the impact with your upper body, guarding your gonads with your hands, and absorbing the impact by falling backward. This had the benefit of alerting the referee to the contact. I still don't see a problem with this play. In fact, a while ago, the bigger issue was guys like Malone coming in with the knee.

I would be more worried about the Varejoes of the world that fall when a player gets in their vicinity or the DFishs that put up a shot, kick out their leg to the side and look like a beached flounder.
   1050. Jimmy P Posted: May 18, 2012 at 11:24 AM (#4134881)
the DFishs that put up a shot, kick out their leg to the side and look like a beached flounder.

I think this is a much worse issue than flopping. It serves no basketball purpose. At least with flopping you're sort of in position to play defense. With the leg kick, you're clearly gaming the system.

I don't know what Stern was trying to deflect - officials, Lebron, whatever - but the minute he mentioned flopping that controlled the narrative and took the spotlight off everything else.
   1051. Booey Posted: May 18, 2012 at 11:39 AM (#4134899)
I'm not sure I just want to "put it on the refs" because I think the quality of officiating may be one of the bigger problems in the NBA.


It absolutely is, but part of the reason why they have such little credibility is BECAUSE they buy into crap like flops. They could polish their own image quite a bit simply by only making calls when they ACTUALLY see contact rather than just assuming contact based on player reactions (or even worse, based on how big of a star the players involved are).

or the DFishs that put up a shot, kick out their leg to the side and look like a beached flounder.


Yeah, I hate that move. And he's not the only one that does it. What annoys me even more is when a shooter kicks his defender in the shins during the shot and they call the foul on the defender.
   1052. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: May 18, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4134959)
It absolutely is, but part of the reason why they have such little credibility is BECAUSE they buy into crap like flops. They could polish their own image quite a bit simply by only making calls when they ACTUALLY see contact rather than just assuming contact based on player reactions


I think you're asking for the humanly impossible.
   1053. Booey Posted: May 18, 2012 at 12:24 PM (#4134965)
It absolutely is, but part of the reason why they have such little credibility is BECAUSE they buy into crap like flops. They could polish their own image quite a bit simply by only making calls when they ACTUALLY see contact rather than just assuming contact based on player reactions

I think you're asking for the humanly impossible.


I don't think a little more consistency is too much to ask. The "It's a hard game to officiate" excuse people always use to defend the refs only goes so far.
   1054. Backlasher Posted: May 18, 2012 at 12:46 PM (#4134993)
The "It's a hard game to officiate" excuse people always use to defend the refs only goes so far.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Specifically, I think the "star-files" are completely avoidable. I also think the refs can get better on the charge/block call. Nevertheless, I think there are going to be some limits on what can be accomplished consistently. The hardest thing for me (and from my observation of others) when officiating is the athletic portion, not the analytical portion. That is, blowing the whistle in sufficient time after the event occurs and definitively making the call. In my experience, the weaker the ref, the worse the problem. IMHO, one of the qualities of a better referee is that they do blow the whistle on an event that should stop play.

For instance, an intramural level ref may allow a player to jump up in the air and come down without blowing the whistle. This type of play should result in a foul, a jump ball or traveling violation and not a no call. A better ref will blow the whistle but may blow the call. The best ref will blow the whistle and get the call correct.

I would opine that the refs that make it all the way to the NBA are the better in the population at the whistle/no whistle athletic portion of the job. More specifically, they don't call fouls for contact when no clear advantage is gained, but will blow a whistle more often when the players relative positions change when an advantage is gained. Making this split second determination is usually about reading the change in body positions or the change in body parts.

Consequently, I don't mind the refs blowing the whistle when there is such a drastic change in body position. Its instinct, and IMHO, a good instinct. The issue is what to call. If they see charge/block, they should make the call. If they don't see contact, they can issue the appropriate violation to the flopper.

I don't know what that violation would be, yet, and I think the NBA would be better served to try things out in the development league first. Maybe handle it like an illegal defense. Give the TEAM one warning, and then its one technical free throw thereafter.
   1055. rr Posted: May 18, 2012 at 12:58 PM (#4135001)
But, Spurs - Pacers would be the NBA's nightmare scenario.


In a sense, certainly. I would personally like seeing two small-market teams put together almost entirely under the old CBA in the Finals. Stern's spin in that case will be, "It's working." His spin on Lakers/Heat/Bulls/Celtics would have been, "We need to do more to level the playing field". ABC/ESPN will of course be pissed off if it is SA/IND.

The Pacers making the Finals would be funny because one of the guys who runs the Pacers' True Hoop blog, Tom Donahue, is a hard-core small-market apologist, and a hard-cap guy. He has written several posts about the issue from that POV, a couple of which Abbott linked on the main site.

Now, since the lockout ended, David West has chosen the Pacers over the mighty Celtics, and the Pacers are up 2-1 on the Heat in the conference semis, while being under the cap and not having a Top-10 elite player.
   1056. rr Posted: May 18, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4135009)
LeBron deserves the ####### Washington Wizards minus John Wall


Actually, the situation with the Heat at the moment demonstrates some of the reasons that the intial overreaction, was, in fact, an overreaction. If they were steamrolling the Pacers 3-0 and winning every game by 20, you would have a better case to complain about James.

   1057. Kurt Posted: May 18, 2012 at 01:11 PM (#4135016)
I guess I'm a bit of a ref-apologist, since correctly discerning fouls from flops in the moment without the benefit of replay seems a lot harder to me than discerning whether a hitter tried to get out of the way of a pitch.

My question is, since they can look at replay and change a 2 to a three or vice versa during a timeout, why couldn't they do the same for fouls? And if they see something like this, give the flopper a T, take away any unwarranted fouls and resulting points, etc.?
   1058. rr Posted: May 18, 2012 at 01:12 PM (#4135018)

I have no clue who'd win that series,

FWIW Hollinger said he thinks the Pacers would win, and Boston might prefer Miami if Bosh can't go.

Also, I think GETTING to the Finals would obviously be a huge deal for the Pacers, and a pretty big deal for the Celtics, even if SA or OKC took them out 4-1 or 4-2.

Schedule note: both Western Series have back-to-backs in LA (Fri and Sat for the Lakers, Sat and Sun for the Clippers), but Miami and Indiana do not play again until Sunday. That may help Miami if Wade is more spry for Game 4. They are going to need him to be.
   1059. baudib Posted: May 18, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4135020)
Saying James is a top 10 all-time player underrates him.
   1060. AROM Posted: May 18, 2012 at 01:23 PM (#4135027)
Actually, the situation with the Heat at the moment demonstrates some of the reasons that the intial overreaction, was, in fact, an overreaction. If they were steamrolling the Pacers 3-0 and winning every game by 20, you would have a better case to complain about James.


Yes. It's not hard at all to imagine this version of the Heat not only failing to win 6-7 championships, there's no guarantee they can even win one. We're seeing how vulnerable the team is when they don't have the big 3 all healthy. And Wade is 30 now, and likely to decline. This year his PER was 26.3, right about his career average. But what can we expect going forward? He's likely to be a bit less effective each year, and that will just make each playoff run harder than the last one.
   1061. Famous Original Joe C Posted: May 18, 2012 at 01:24 PM (#4135029)
Saying James is a top 10 all-time player underrates him.

I don't get this. What distinction do you prefer?

Who among (listed in no particular order)

Jordan
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Russell
Kareem

is he ahead of?

Why, then is saying "top-10 all time" especially for a guy who is halfway through his career, underrating him?
   1062. rr Posted: May 18, 2012 at 01:28 PM (#4135038)
Stat note:

2012 PLAYOFFS:

Garnett
PER 25.5 WS/48 .262


Duncan
PER 25.4 WS/48 .260

   1063. AROM Posted: May 18, 2012 at 01:30 PM (#4135041)
Saying James is a top 10 all-time player underrates him.


I think you can be justified putting some of the greatest big men ahead of him, specifically Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Olajuwon, Robinson, and Duncan. Then there's Bird, Magic, and Jordan. Now he can be a more dominant player than Bird and Magic, especially on defense, but to rate him ahead of them you've got to 1) give him credit for years he hasn't played yet and 2) Completely ignore his failures in big games.

He should have beat Orlando in 2009, Boston in 2010, and Dallas in 2011. It's not all his fault, but he's got to take some of the blame.

   1064. Backlasher Posted: May 18, 2012 at 01:37 PM (#4135051)
My question is, since they can look at replay and change a 2 to a three or vice versa during a timeout, why couldn't they do the same for fouls? And if they see something like this, give the flopper a T, take away any unwarranted fouls and resulting points, etc.?

Two things. One is time. I don't think they want to review every foul. The 2 or 3 is quick review that happens very rarely, and the flagrant review also happens infrequently. The 2 to 3 point change also usually occurs during a time out rather than just a dead ball. Fouls occur on between 18 to 25% of possessions.

More important, the definition of "flop" is going to be imporant. In the video you linked (and the Ginobli/Bell video), there is physical contact between the players. Its just the reaction doesn't pass the eye test. Trying to codify and consistently call the eye test seems like a nightmare. I would hate to go to a commercial break with the score 75-67 and come back to 71-72 because they reviewed a series of foul calls (where some had free throws); and I'd hate to stop play for long enough to review fouls on that many possessions.

I'd prefer the penalty to be small.
   1065. rr Posted: May 18, 2012 at 01:39 PM (#4135055)
Saying James is a top 10 all-time player underrates him


If you go entirely on peak value and measurable, recently-developed metrics, I suppose you could say that. But I don't think many people do it that way except some statheads.

With certain exceptions, Kobe perhaps being one, "overrated" and "underrated" are subjective terms, usually used to express some kind of irritation about what certain groups of people say about certain players.

A lot of the shitstorm around James is irritating, but he has won 3 of the last 4 MVP awards and IMO is generally regarded as the most gifted player the NBA has seen since Jordan and the most dominant the NBA has seen since Shaq. While there are a lot of MSM guys who don't understand the gap between him and Kobe, there are also a lot of pretty high-profile stat guys, like Hollinger and Lowe, who remind their readers about how good James is about once every 72 hours, and the MSM guys, dumb or not, DID vote James the MVP--again.

So, saying James is a ringless choker is, in fact, underrating and pissing on him, and it is undeserved. Saying he is a Top-10 player in history when he is about 50% through his career and has 3 MVP trophies on the shelf? Not seeing it.
   1066. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: May 18, 2012 at 01:49 PM (#4135060)
FWIW Hollinger said he thinks the Pacers would win, and Boston might prefer Miami if Bosh can't go.

Also, I think GETTING to the Finals would obviously be a huge deal for the Pacers, and a pretty big deal for the Celtics, even if SA or OKC took them out 4-1 or 4-2.


I think the Pacers would beat the C's, too, especially if PP isn't 100%. Indiana has the size that Boston really struggles with. But getting to the ECF/beating Miami would be a huge deal for Indiana, too.

Seeing the Heat vulnerable (much more vulnerable without Bosh of course, but still beatable with him) only brings up the Rose injury anger again.
   1067. Backlasher Posted: May 18, 2012 at 01:50 PM (#4135061)
So, saying James is a ringless choker

Did you guys ever link this article? While not definitive, it does give a good a baseline to at least talk about "playoff chokers" It also establishes that Olajuwon was the man.
   1068. Kurt Posted: May 18, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4135063)
BL, good points. I wouldn't want to review every foul either, for the reasons you state. But Van Gundy was able to see the flop immediately, and confirm it with replay before the shots were taken. It seems like you could get around the delay issues by having an upstairs official watching the broadcast who can signal down to the on-court officials in particularly egregious cases, or some similar system. I concede that there's probably a slippery slope, though, where a system set up to review a few fouls here and there would end up being used on all fouls and adding 45 minutes to each game.

As for the eye test, refs have to do that already to decide what's a foul and what isn't. It doesn't seem to be any more nightmarish to have to define a flop with replay than without.
   1069. baudib Posted: May 18, 2012 at 01:52 PM (#4135065)
2) Completely ignore his failures in big games.


You don't have to completely ignore his failures in big games. The problem with the current James narrative is that it completely ignores all the incredible things James has done in big games. The idea that James must choke because that's all he ever does has completely taken over the public perception of James.

-- The double-overtime game vs. the Pistons is as dominant/clutch a performance as any great player has ever had. Scoring your team's final 25 points in a double OT win is just something that shouldn't happen.

-- His 45-point game against an obviously superior Boston team in Game 7 was almost as good.

-- Against Orlando, he scored 49, 41, 44 points in their first three losses, and he hit a buzzer-beater to win Game 3. How much blame should he really take?


   1070. baudib Posted: May 18, 2012 at 01:54 PM (#4135068)
Saying he is a Top-10 player in history when he is about 50% through his career and has 3 MVP trophies on the shelf? Not seeing it.


How many 3-time MVPs AREN'T in the top 10?
   1071. Jimmy P Posted: May 18, 2012 at 01:56 PM (#4135070)
You don't have to completely ignore his failures in big games. The problem with the current James narrative is that it completely ignores all the incredible things James has done in big games. The idea that James must choke because that's all he ever does has completely taken over the public perception of James

Exactly. If you want to make the argument that's what he's done in Miami, that's fair. But, to say that's what he's always done is just flat out wrong.
   1072. rr Posted: May 18, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4135075)
over the public perception of James


I understand being irritated based on one's personal perception of the "public perception" of James. I don't care about it all that much personally, but I can certainly see why it would bother some people.

But that is different than claiming that saying he is a Top 10-All-Time player when he is 27 years old is "underrating" him.
   1073. rr Posted: May 18, 2012 at 02:05 PM (#4135080)
How many 3-time MVPs AREN'T in the top 10?


Probably none, I would guess. And people here, at least, are saying James is in that group. Don't see why that is a problem for you.
   1074. Famous Original Joe C Posted: May 18, 2012 at 02:07 PM (#4135081)
How many 3-time MVPs AREN'T in the top 10?

You could make an argument against Shaq or Moses, though either would be in the top 12-14 at worst, regardless.

I'd only argue Moses outside the top 10 myself, granting that my actual memories of him are mainly of the "wearing goggles and getting 18 and 12 for the Hawks" variety.
   1075. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: May 18, 2012 at 02:29 PM (#4135098)
He should have beat Orlando in 2009, Boston in 2010, and Dallas in 2011. It's not all his fault, but he's got to take some of the blame.


I don't know about the Orlando series. He pretty much did everything it's possible for one player to do. [I take your larger point though]
   1076. AROM Posted: May 18, 2012 at 02:35 PM (#4135105)
Against Orlando, he scored 49, 41, 44 points in their first three losses, and he hit a buzzer-beater to win Game 3. How much blame should he really take?


True. Lebron did all he could there. The team should have beat Orlando and didn't. Lebron is more responsible for the losses in 2010 and 2011. I know he doesn't always choke. He did an incredible job to close out Boston and Chicago last season. He just hasn't been consistent enough. To get into the top 2-3 players ever he really does need a championship run where he puts up big games throughout the playoffs.

He may very well end up as a top 2-3 player of all time, but I can't put him there ahead of all the other greats who have carried teams to multiple championships. At least not yet.

Oh, and add Shaq to my list in #1063.

Through 9 years, Lebron has 133 WS, .233 WS/48, great regular season win totals, and no rings.

Through his first 9 years David Robinson had 129 WS, .261 WS/48, great regular seasons, and no rings (He and Duncan got one the next year).

I would not argue for David Robinson as the single greatest center of all time, and I can't see Lebron as having an advantage in basketball value so far in his career to what Robinson did.
   1077. andrewberg Posted: May 18, 2012 at 02:37 PM (#4135108)
I am thinking about cancelling Insider and moving over to BaskPro. I am not interested in all the college stuff, but BaskPro is starting to look like a better expenditure to me.


The only advantage is that I like some of their insider baseball stuff. Olney, Dan, and KLaw are worth reading. Plus, I got one of those promotional deals where I paid $6 for 3 years of the magazine + insider. The magazine is crap (it sits under my Better Homes and Gardens), but the web is worth $2 per year.

Now, since the lockout ended, David West has chosen the Pacers over the mighty Celtics, and the Pacers are up 2-1 on the Heat in the conference semis, while being under the cap and not having a Top-10 elite player.


Only because they have the executive of the year ;)

Also, I think you're right that people overrated Miami's advantage. When you concentrate that much payroll on three guys, it is hard to fortify the rest of the team. Sure, they got Miller and Battier on contracts that other teams probably would have offered those guys (I'd say that neither is really far below market). On the other hand, they have had no luck upgrading their interior presence. Big guys are expensive, either in cash, draft picks, or trade assets and the Heat have a scarcity of all three). That weakness is very clear, and it is not just an issue of scouting or signing the right guys. They just haven't had the resources to bring in the type of guy who could help cover that weakness, and it is largely due to having 3 (near) max players.

I have no clue who'd win that series, especially with a gimpy PP, but if the Celtics make the finals again then the 2007 deals for Garnett and Allen will have worked out as well as they possibly could have.


I think it was Ainge who said earlier this year that they were in year 5 of a 3 year plan. To contend for the finals in a season like that would be crazy. I guess they probably didn't anticipate Garnett playing like this at any point.

Exactly. If you want to make the argument that's what he's done in Miami, that's fair. But, to say that's what he's always done is just flat out wrong


He also played some great games against Boston and Chicago in last year's playoffs. He basically had a couple of strangely bad games against Boston in 10, struggled with Shawn Marion's Best Week Ever in 11, and has had his teammates fall apart for two games this year (more to come).

Edit- coke to AROM
   1078. Booey Posted: May 18, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4135119)
I think you can be justified putting some of the greatest big men ahead of him, specifically Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Olajuwon, Robinson, and Duncan. Then there's Bird, Magic, and Jordan.


Robinson? Really? I've never seen a ranking of NBA greats that even placed him in the top 20, let alone top 10. I think most of them have him around 30th or so.

How many 3-time MVPs AREN'T in the top 10?

You could make an argument against Shaq or Moses, though either would be in the top 12-14 at worst, regardless.


Shaq also only won 1 MVP. Unless you're talking about All Star or Finals MVP's.
   1079. Famous Original Joe C Posted: May 18, 2012 at 02:48 PM (#4135121)

Through 9 years, Lebron has 133 WS, .233 WS/48, great regular season win totals, and no rings.

Through his first 9 years David Robinson had 129 WS, .261 WS/48, great regular seasons, and no rings (He and Duncan got one the next year).

I would not argue for David Robinson as the single greatest center of all time, and I can't see Lebron as having an advantage in basketball value so far in his career to what Robinson did.


Except, those nine years are David Robinson's prime. Those years for Lebron include a time when Robinson was playing the the Naval Academy or actually being in the Navy.

Comparing their age 24-27 seasons (Robinson's first four), it's 30.2 to 26.3 PER, 69 WS to 59, and .289/48 to .239/48, advantages all to Lebron. He's certainly having a better peak than Robinson, hands down, and to try to make career arguments for a guy who is 27 is premature anyway.
   1080. Famous Original Joe C Posted: May 18, 2012 at 02:50 PM (#4135123)
Shaq also only won 1 MVP. Unless you're talking about All Star or Finals MVP's.

Bad mistake there on my part - you're right. So, only Moses.
   1081. rr Posted: May 18, 2012 at 02:53 PM (#4135125)
Shaq did only win one MVP, but you can make a good case that he should have gotten a couple of more.
   1082. Booey Posted: May 18, 2012 at 03:02 PM (#4135135)
Shaq did only win one MVP, but you can make a good case that he should have gotten a couple of more.


Yeah. Personally, I would have voted for him or Duncan in 2001 and 2005.

Iverson winning the MVP in 2001 ahead of Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, and Kobe was just nuts.
   1083. AROM Posted: May 18, 2012 at 03:19 PM (#4135151)
and to try to make career arguments for a guy who is 27 is premature anyway.


I agree with this, and I consider that one more argument against the idea that calling Lebron a top 10 is underrating him.

Yes, Lebron came in right out of high school and Robinson started at age 24. This is a reason why Lebron will very likely end up the better player of the two. But if someone says "top 10 ever" is too low a rank for Lebron right now, then I think it's fair to compare what he's done so far, regardless of age, to Robinson.

Robinson? Really? I've never seen a ranking of NBA greats that even placed him in the top 20, let alone top 10. I think most of them have him around 30th or so.


30th seems way too low for Robinson. He's 12 in WS, and 2nd in WS48. For playoffs those ranks are #24 and #9. But I would not rank him any better than the bottom of the top 10, and possible in the 10-20 range. So if Lebron can't top Robinson based on accomplishments to date, he can't rank that high either.

Robinson was everything Dwight Howard is, and more. He was a more prolific scorer, did not have the free throw shooting weakness, and was a very good passer. In his rookie year he turned a 21 win lottery team into a 56 win championship contender team. He was primarily responsible for reducing their opponent FG% fom .488 to .461 - centers who can block 300 shots will do that.
   1084. Booey Posted: May 18, 2012 at 03:41 PM (#4135178)
30th seems way too low for Robinson. He's 12 in WS, and 2nd in WS48. For playoffs those ranks are #24 and #9. But I would not rank him any better than the bottom of the top 10, and possible in the 10-20 range.


30th might be a little too low, but not much. I'm not seeing him anywhere near the top 10. Even amongst 90's players, he shouldn't rank ahead of (in no particular order) Jordan, Olajuwon, Malone, Shaq, Barkley, and probably Stockton. His rankings with WS and WS48 can't be taken completely at face value considering that:

WS:
#3 - Mailman
#5 - Stock
#9 - Garnett
#13 - Barkley
#15 - Reggie Miller (!)
#17 - Russell
#20 - Kobe
#22 - Magic
#24 - Bird

As much as I love my Utah boys, I don't see them as being top 5 all time players. Nor Garnett in the top 10. Nor is Miller anywhere near the top 20, especially ahead of those last 4 guys listed.

WS48 is just as unexpected, with someone named Neil Johnston 4th, Chris Paul 5th, and Manu Ginobili 10th. Bird is only 19th, so if you're ranking players largely off WS and WS48, Larry Legend might not crack the top 20.

   1085. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: May 18, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4135207)
Did you guys ever link this article? While not definitive, it does give a good a baseline to at least talk about "playoff chokers" It also establishes that Olajuwon was the man.

I'd never seen that, thanks.
   1086. AROM Posted: May 18, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4135267)
he shouldn't rank ahead of (in no particular order) Jordan, Olajuwon, Malone, Shaq, Barkley, and probably Stockton.


Behind Jordan, Shaq, and Olajuwon definitely.

I have to put Robinson ahead of Barkley. They both have great offensive stats, but Barkley was not much of a defender, while Robinson was one of the rare players who could shut down an opposing team. I'd also put him ahead of Stockton and Malone, because I think Robinson in his prime was the equal of Malone + Stockton combined. Robinson plus role players was worth 55-60 wins per year, a few playoff series victories, and no championships. That is exactly what Stockton + Malone + role players would get you at the same time.
   1087. andrewberg Posted: May 18, 2012 at 04:37 PM (#4135283)
In an effort to revive his NBA career, Greg Oden recently underwent the controversial knee procedure that superstars Kobe Bryant and New York Yankees slugger Alex Rodriguez say took years of wear off their bodies, according to sources.


I guess that means Oden now has the knees of an 85 year old.
   1088. Famous Original Joe C Posted: May 18, 2012 at 04:39 PM (#4135290)
I have to put Robinson ahead of Barkley. They both have great offensive stats, but Barkley was not much of a defender, while Robinson was one of the rare players who could shut down an opposing team. I'd also put him ahead of Stockton and Malone, because I think Robinson in his prime was the equal of Malone + Stockton combined. Robinson plus role players was worth 55-60 wins per year, a few playoff series victories, and no championships. That is exactly what Stockton + Malone + role players would get you at the same time.

Agree with this - though the argument is different depending on how you weight career and peak. For example, if I could have one guy for a 3-5 year run, I'd probably take peak Barkley over peak Malone, and peak Robinson over either of them. But, careerwise, Malone comes out ahead of Barkley or Robinson.
   1089. Booey Posted: May 18, 2012 at 04:43 PM (#4135294)
I'd also put him ahead of Stockton and Malone, because I think Robinson in his prime was the equal of Malone + Stockton combined. Robinson plus role players was worth 55-60 wins per year, a few playoff series victories, and no championships. That is exactly what Stockton + Malone + role players would get you at the same time.


I'm not seeing it:

Robinson + role players = 1 WCF, no Finals appearances.
Stockton + Malone + role players = 5 WCF in a 7 year span, 2 Finals appearances, no titles but mainly cuz they ran into Jordan.

Oh, and 3-0 against Robinson's Spurs in the playoffs.


   1090. AROM Posted: May 18, 2012 at 04:54 PM (#4135302)
From Robinson's first year to his last healthy year before Duncan, they averaged 55 wins per year. During that time the Jazz averaged 54 per year. Jazz had more playoff success, but still no rings.

Robinson = Stockton + Malone might be an overstatement, but I think it's closer to the truth than saying each of them were individually better than Robinson.
   1091. Booey Posted: May 18, 2012 at 04:55 PM (#4135304)
The 90's Jazz were more of a contender almost every year than the pre-Duncan Spurs. Not being able to beat the Jazz was actually one of the main reasons why Robinson's Spurs rarely went very far in the playoffs.
   1092. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 18, 2012 at 04:57 PM (#4135310)
I'd also put him ahead of Stockton and Malone, because I think Robinson in his prime was the equal of Malone + Stockton combined.
That player doesn't exist.
   1093. Booey Posted: May 18, 2012 at 04:58 PM (#4135313)
Jazz had more playoff success, but still no rings.


No, but I'd still take conference finals and NBA finals over 1st and 2nd round playoff exits any day of the week.


   1094. Booey Posted: May 18, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4135318)
From Robinson's first year to his last healthy year before Duncan, they averaged 55 wins per year. During that time the Jazz averaged 54 per year.


Oh, and this isn't really a fair comparison considering that it uses 1996 as the cutoff point - which excludes the Jazz's two best seasons.

Edit: And even using that cutoff point, the Jazz had reached 3 WCF compared to 1 for the Spurs. And they'd eliminated SA both times they met in the playoffs, without HC either time.

   1095. AROM Posted: May 18, 2012 at 05:13 PM (#4135324)
Oh, and this isn't really a fair comparison considering that it uses 1996 as the cutoff point - which excludes the Jazz's two best seasons.


OK. Add in those two years and they average 56 wins per year, one more than the Admiral's Spurs.
   1096. Booey Posted: May 18, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4135329)
OK. Add in those two years and they average 56 wins per year, one more than the Admiral's Spurs.


Well, if you're adding the Jazz's 1997, then you should be adding the Spurs 1997 into the average as well. :)

I just don't see how regular season success is more telling than playoff success or head to head playoff matchups. Without looking it up, I think the Mavs had a better overall record in the 2000-2009 decade than the Lakers did.
   1097. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 18, 2012 at 05:28 PM (#4135333)
Sure, but if the point up for debate is the relative merit of The Admiral vs. Stockton and Malone as players, the fact that this is a debate seems to me to be a point for Robinson. If Stockton and Malone were both better players, shouldn't it be a bit more of a walk than that, given what Robinson had on those teams?
   1098. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 18, 2012 at 05:30 PM (#4135336)
From Robinson's first year to his last healthy year before Duncan, they averaged 55 wins per year. During that time the Jazz averaged 54 per year. Jazz had more playoff success, but still no rings.
Lebron James' teams have averaged 55 wins per seasons over the last seven seasons (five with the Cavs, two with the Heat, and this season's wins projected to a full season), and he's also gone to two Finals in that stretch. That should trump Robinson's record, yes?
   1099. rr Posted: May 18, 2012 at 05:41 PM (#4135341)
Hollinger's Per Diem today brought up a point I have been thinking about; namely, that Riley has not a very good job with the Heat 4-12. Seems like the media don't talk about him that much. Riley will get some, uhh, heat, if Miami loses to Indiana. Hollinger ended with this:

Welcome to Cleveland, Fla., Mr. James. Hope you like the palm trees.
   1100. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: May 18, 2012 at 06:00 PM (#4135350)
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