Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Tuesday, May 01, 2012

OT: NBA Monthly Thread, May 2012

I estimate that only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what the site is really about: Bryce Harper getting mooned by a Dodgers fan, how dumb interleague baseball is, or random spamming of Yankees/RedSox news that barely counts as news.

Tripon Posted: May 01, 2012 at 10:28 AM | 2330 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags:

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 23 of 24 pages ‹ First  < 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 > 
   2201. Jimmy P Posted: May 31, 2012 at 02:04 PM (#4144294)
Might be time to just do away with the draft lottery. The whole point of the lottery (At least initinally) was to discourage teams from losing on purpose, but it seems to be happening anyway.

And replace it with what?

It does discourage tanking because the worst team is still 3 times more likely to not get the first pick. So, being the worst isn't that advantageous (something teams and commentators still haven't picked up on). New Orleans, in garbage karmic logic, "deserves" the #1 pick because they didn't tank. They played hard all season.

Just because teams aren't picking up on logic and evidence - worst team hasn't gotten the #1 pick since 2004 - doesn't mean the NBA should change its rules. There's probably a better way to do it, but the motivation should be to optimize the process, not to be reactionary due to poor teams and their poor management.
   2202. Joel W Posted: May 31, 2012 at 02:40 PM (#4144333)
I rewatched the Lebron end of regulation play last night with Rondo on him. KG is lurking ready to help if Lebron drives. He saw it/knows it. He's taken an 8-10 foot runner if he goes to the hoop there.
   2203. Conor Posted: May 31, 2012 at 02:43 PM (#4144336)
his is actually the thing that's been driving me crazy all series. Bad calls happen, but the refs have been pretty consistently whistling calls after shots miss. I've noticed it more on the Heat, but that is almost certainly a combination of them driving more and my own confirmation bias. I can live with a bad call, but call it or don't. Whistling a foul two or three seconds after it occurs and the continuation shot has missed is unacceptable.


I feel like i have noticed this happening more the last few years.
   2204. Booey Posted: May 31, 2012 at 02:44 PM (#4144337)
I would have guessed you work at a Big and Tall Mens Wear with all the mentions of the big men. I mean, everybody has to buy furniture, but specialty clothing would increase the odds your customers were giants.


Not as cool as the mob guess, but still more interesting than the truth, unfortunately.

"Hi, I'm Thurl Bailey. In my 15 seasons in the NBA, I spent a lot of time on the bench, so I know the importance of a comfortable place to sit...."


HA! I love it!

(he's actually a really nice guy, in case anyone was wondering. I'd met him a few times before and he's always friendly)
   2205. Conor Posted: May 31, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4144341)
With Rondo, I think the drive is off. The one advantage he does not have is quickness. If he drives on Rondo I think there's a very good chance of an offensive foul call, and the Heat don't need Rondo winning the game at the line with basically no time left.


I agree on the main point, but if it was an offensive foul Boston would just be taking the ball out of bounds, no? They'd only shoot if it was a loose ball foul.
   2206. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: May 31, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4144343)
He's taken an 8-10 foot runner if he goes to the hoop there.

I think that's a better shot than the one he took. He's a 39% shooter this year from the spot he took, but 47% from 3-9 feet and 10-15 feet.

BTW, I went to NBA hot spots and it hasn't been updated since the 2010 playoffs. What a shamockery.
   2207. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: May 31, 2012 at 02:49 PM (#4144345)
KC Johnson linked his piece from 2004 when he sat in on the drawing.

As an aside, he noted it was for the right to draft Okafur and not Howard.
   2208. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: May 31, 2012 at 02:50 PM (#4144346)
Who do people see as the #2 pick? I haven't decided yet.
I do like the depth this year - there's a number of interesting dudes currently tabbed to go mid-first, late-first, early-second...
   2209. andrewberg Posted: May 31, 2012 at 03:02 PM (#4144360)
Who do people see as the #2 pick? I haven't decided yet.
I do like the depth this year - there's a number of interesting dudes currently tabbed to go mid-first, late-first, early-second...


I have heard MKG's name more than anyone else's, but I don't like his fit for Charlotte. They need more foundational building blocks, and I think they would be better off taking a bigger risk. My first thought is that Drummond might be in play for them since I think he at least has a chance to become a real building block. Plus, Drummond is likely to be bad enough the first year or two that they will have a chance to add more high draft picks.
   2210. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: May 31, 2012 at 03:03 PM (#4144361)
Kidd-Gilchrist goes #2 in most mocks I've seen. I'm the world's worst at predicting who will make it in the NBA (I thought Corliss Williamson would be the next Charles Barkley), but he looks like a solid player to me. Maybe Richard Jefferson with defense.
   2211. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: May 31, 2012 at 03:05 PM (#4144364)
They need more foundational building blocks, and I think they would be better off taking a bigger risk.


I agree with that too. If I were Charlotte, I would attempt to trade down, take on a player and still draft a lottery ticket like Perry Jones.
   2212. andrewberg Posted: May 31, 2012 at 03:07 PM (#4144370)
Maybe Richard Jefferson with defense.


MKG reminds me somewhat of a raw Luol Deng. That's basically RJ with defense, right? I guess young RJ and MKG both play inside more than Deng, but that is a function of youth, to some extent. MKG will also have a much harder time being the best rebounder on the court at about 6'6 in the pros than he did in college.
   2213. tshipman Posted: May 31, 2012 at 03:09 PM (#4144372)
I would try to trade down (to 6-7ish) and pick up Harrison Barnes. He's still really young and has good size and athleticism.

I think he's at a low point on his value right now, and is a good opportunity to pick up cheap.
   2214. Joel W Posted: May 31, 2012 at 03:12 PM (#4144376)
"He's a 39% shooter this year from the spot he took, but 47% from 3-9 feet and 10-15 feet."

Except he's shooting over Rondo from 18 and he's got a top 5 in the history of the NBA defender coming over to help on the weakside. I'm not sure his calculus was off.
   2215. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: May 31, 2012 at 03:20 PM (#4144386)
I don't normally believing in trading down from #2 but - yeah - I would too.
hoopshype / nbadraft.net has them taking Barnes, which seems like a bad joke. I've otherwise mostly seen MKG there, also Robinson (draftexpress) - who seems like a safe choice.
   2216. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: May 31, 2012 at 03:24 PM (#4144390)
If he drives on Rondo I think there's a very good chance of an offensive foul call, and the Heat don't need Rondo winning the game at the line with basically no time left.

As others have noted, offensive fouls don't result in free throws. But also, LeBron has an incredibly low foul rate. He had gone 7 games without an offensive foul and had shot 74 free throws since then. In addition, the Celtics were out of timeouts, so the typical NBA rationale for shooting at the buzzer didn't apply, and the Celtics are a poor rebounding team. Shooting with a few seconds left on the clock would've given the Heat a much greater win expectancy, especially if LeBron had made a move to draw an extra defender before taking the shot. What LeBron did was far from the worst decision strategically (such as making a risky pass or taking a low-percentage shot with lots of time on the clock) and far from the best.
   2217. andrewberg Posted: May 31, 2012 at 03:25 PM (#4144395)
I don't normally believing in trading down from #2 but - yeah - I would too.
hoopshype / nbadraft.net has them taking Barnes, which seems like a bad joke. I've otherwise mostly seen MKG there, also Robinson (draftexpress) - who seems like a safe choice.


The minutes we have seen Biyombo are probably insufficient to draw big conclusions, but my thought is that if you wanted to have him be your nominal 5, you would want a 4 who skews to the big side in cases where you have to match up against a physically imposing center- think of Ben Wallace playing next to Sheed, who had the size to guard bigger guys even though he functioned as more of a 4 offensively. Even so, you could argue that the Bobcats are so far away that worrying about fit is missing the point.
   2218. tshipman Posted: May 31, 2012 at 03:32 PM (#4144405)
I don't normally believing in trading down from #2 but - yeah - I would too.
hoopshype / nbadraft.net has them taking Barnes, which seems like a bad joke. I've otherwise mostly seen MKG there, also Robinson (draftexpress) - who seems like a safe choice.


The problem is--who trades up? I hate drafting SF's who aren't elite scorers or at least very plus distributors. It seems like the upside is really limited.

If you had a gun to my head and I had to pick at #2, I guess I would try to grab Andre Drummond or Thomas Robinson. I like Drummond, but I am worried about his ability to score.
   2219. Joel W Posted: May 31, 2012 at 03:32 PM (#4144406)
Isn't MKG sort of perfect for Washington or Sacramento, teams that could use athletic players who don't demand the ball but can get out on fast breaks?
   2220. robinred Posted: May 31, 2012 at 03:32 PM (#4144407)
Bradford Doolittle (free) at BaskPro on conspiracy theories

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2326
   2221. AROM Posted: May 31, 2012 at 03:36 PM (#4144410)
As others have noted, offensive fouls don't result in free throws.


My bad on that.

I don't know if that shot was the best strategy for Lebron, but I think it was reasonable. And his typical 39% shooting from that spot is more likely put up against taller defenders than Rondo.
   2222. jmurph Posted: May 31, 2012 at 03:39 PM (#4144415)
Isn't MKG sort of perfect for Washington or Sacramento, teams that could use athletic players who don't demand the ball but can get out on fast breaks?


I don't know Sacto enough, but I definitely agree he'd be a great fit for the Wiz.

If you had a gun to my head and I had to pick at #2, I guess I would try to grab Andre Drummond or Thomas Robinson. I like Drummond, but I am worried about his ability to score.


When was the last time that worked out? Not being facetious. Regarding Robinson, I have no track record for these things, and I can't decide if he's a totally finished product with no upside, or an all star waiting to happen. He does play very hard, which has to be a positive.

   2223. smileyy Posted: May 31, 2012 at 03:43 PM (#4144425)
From the article on [2220]:

But I can say this without reservation: If any kind of wrong-doing was ever proven in terms of lottery rigging, I would be done.


It must be because I'm not a fan of any hometown or sentimental favorite team (I like players, not teams -- I've also never had a hometown NBA team) that this wouldn't bother me. They'd have to get rid of the lottery going forward of course, but I'd be ok with the NBA having directed certain outcomes for good or for bad.

Maybe its because I already suspect they do, and yet here I am.
   2224. Maxwn Posted: May 31, 2012 at 03:47 PM (#4144432)
I like Drummond, but I am worried about his ability to score.

I've seen this movie. It ends with trading him and a 1st round pick for 2 months of Shane Battier.
   2225. AROM Posted: May 31, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4144433)
I'd like to see Kidd-Gilchrist to the Bobs and Robinson to the Wizards. Bobcats have a few more years in the lottery before they have a chance to do anything, so take the younger guy. Robinson is probably closer to helping the Wizards be competitive.
   2226. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: May 31, 2012 at 03:59 PM (#4144449)
I think with a tie game you have to take it to the basket. 1 point is as good as 2. Down 1, I'm more sympathetic to the play (except that down 1 you probably shoot earlier to give yourself redraws).

I find it very hard to get excited about anything involving the Bobcats, but I'd take MKG.

I think the teams that are going to make out really well here in the end are the teams in the low lottery. The quality of player available there will be much, much higher than most drafts. In particular, whoever ends up with Terrence Jones (currently projected 15th to the Sixers by DX) is getting a steal.
   2227. andrewberg Posted: May 31, 2012 at 04:01 PM (#4144452)
I am worried about his ability to score.


When was the last time that worked out? Not being facetious.


Dwight Howard had no offensive game when he was drafted. Of course, some may say he still doesn't. Either case, that's probably the comp Drummond's people want out there.
   2228. smileyy Posted: May 31, 2012 at 04:03 PM (#4144457)
Does anyone have measurements on Drummond? I haven't seen them on DX, so I assume not. His wingspan, reach and neck length (kidding, kinda) will be a big factor.
   2229. jmurph Posted: May 31, 2012 at 04:07 PM (#4144462)
Dwight Howard had no offensive game when he was drafted. Of course, some may say he still doesn't. Either case, that's probably the comp Drummond's people want out there.


I considered Howard, but then again he was a high school kid. We at least have the one year of college to examine with Drummond. Fair point, though.
   2230. tshipman Posted: May 31, 2012 at 04:07 PM (#4144463)
When was the last time that worked out? Not being facetious


Well, it is rarer than usual. But in the last five years, big men who were picked in the top 7 overall:

2011: Too soon to tell--no one looks great
Enes Kanter (not regarded as having offensive issues, but had a mediocre first year)
Jan Veseley (not sure how his offenisve game was regarded. mediocre)
Bismack Biyombo (regarded as a project offensively, still a project)

2010: Two out of three
DeMarcus Cousins (good offensively, but was regarded as such)
Ekpe Udoh (regarded as a project on offense. Pretty poor, but a good defender--20 min a game guy atm)
Greg Monroe (I seem to remember him being described as a project on offense. In any case, he's been great)

2009: Contrast in styles
Blake Griffin (great offensively, was projected as such)
Hasheem Thabeet (disaster zone--can't average 10 min in the NBA)

2008: No good comparisons
Michael Beasley (projected at the 4 out of college, but has played the 3)
Kevin Love (some question about his offense, but has played well)

2007:
Greg Oden (what might have been? Was regarded as a project, but displayed good touch briefly)
Al Horford (developed significantly from an 8 shot a game guy in college. Was regarded as projectible on offense in college)


Some guys really figured it out on offense in the Pros--Dwight Howard, Greg Monroe, Al Horford (depending on what you think of how he was regarded in college). The real big project guys are generally drafted later. I do think that Drummond is nothing like Thabeet. Thabeet was 22 when he came out. Drummond is 18. Thabeet averaged a shot per game less than Drummond in 3 more mpg his last year. One really valid source of concern for Drummond: Cannot shoot FT's. Like to a scary degree that will retard his development.
   2231. smileyy Posted: May 31, 2012 at 04:08 PM (#4144466)
[2229] A year on a team that didn't really play an offense.
   2232. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: May 31, 2012 at 04:09 PM (#4144472)
Wait. There's a real person named Bismack Biyombo? No ####### way.
   2233. tshipman Posted: May 31, 2012 at 04:12 PM (#4144477)
Dwight Howard had no offensive game when he was drafted. Of course, some may say he still doesn't. Either case, that's probably the comp Drummond's people want out there.


Other guys you might look at besides my list above:

Andrew Bogut, Emeka Okafor, Tyson Chandler
   2234. jmurph Posted: May 31, 2012 at 04:17 PM (#4144479)
That's not a bad list, tship, thanks for posting. I admit I somehow missed Connecticut this year (live in Georgetown territory so usually see a lot of the Big East). Was Drummond just an open dunk/put back kind of guy? Or did he show flashes?

   2235. tshipman Posted: May 31, 2012 at 04:29 PM (#4144494)
That's not a bad list, tship, thanks for posting. I admit I somehow missed Connecticut this year (live in Georgetown territory so usually see a lot of the Big East). Was Drummond just an open dunk/put back kind of guy? Or did he show flashes?


Hell if I know. He averaged 8.6 FGA on a team that took 56 per game (3rd on the team). I saw a highlight reel of his where he looked pretty raw in the post, but did go up and get a bucket. He's a pretty decent offensive rebounder. I don't think he's Thabeet. Apparently, I'm his agent.

I hate drafting SF's, as it takes a lot for a SF to be an impact player in the NBA.
   2236. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: May 31, 2012 at 04:32 PM (#4144501)
I hate drafting SF's, as it takes a lot for a SF to be an impact player in the NBA.


The Atlanta Hawks are interested in your theories and would like to subscribe to your newsletters.

Wait.

The fans of the Atlanta Hawks are interested in your theories and would like to subscribe the Atlanta Hawks to your newsletters.
   2237. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 31, 2012 at 04:33 PM (#4144502)
One really valid source of concern for Drummond: Cannot shoot FT's. Like to a scary degree that will retard his development.
Just on this I'd avoid him in the draft. We've seen a lot of dreadful free throw-shooting big men play in the league, and guys who are that level of atrocious from the line are either great (Shaq, Wilt) or bit players at best. (Ben Wallace is the one outlier.) Also, no player who's hung around for 1500 FTAs has shot worse than 41.4% (Wallace) from the line, and Drummond didn't even get to 30% last season. It's unacceptable, you can't give him the ball, EVER. I don't care how athletic he is, unless you're looking to draft as the #2 pick Chris Dudley, you can't draft Drummond.
   2238. JJ1986 Posted: May 31, 2012 at 04:36 PM (#4144508)
2010: Two out of three


You missed Derrick Favors. I think he's done better on offense than expected.
   2239. tshipman Posted: May 31, 2012 at 04:37 PM (#4144509)
Just on this I'd avoid him in the draft. We've seen a lot of dreadful free throw-shooting big men play in the league, and guys who are that level of atrocious from the line are either great (Shaq, Wilt) or bit players at best. (Ben Wallace is the one outlier.) Also, no player who's hung around for 1500 FTAs has shot worse than 41.4% (Wallace) from the line, and Drummond didn't even get to 30% last season. It's unacceptable. I don't care how athletic he is, unless you're looking to draft as the #2 pick Chris Dudley, you can't draft Drummond.


Well .... again I feel like I'm his agent here, but he only took 88 FTs. In addition, poor FT shooting is probably one of the easiest things to work with a guy on and have them improve. I feel like it's likely that he could improve up to around 60% within two years (as I'm assuming he'd be willing to work on it).

Edit:
You missed Derrick Favors. I think he's done better on offense than expected.


My bad there.
   2240. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 31, 2012 at 04:56 PM (#4144540)
Well .... again I feel like I'm his agent here, but he only took 88 FTs. In addition, poor FT shooting is probably one of the easiest things to work with a guy on and have them improve. I feel like it's likely that he could improve up to around 60% within two years (as I'm assuming he'd be willing to work on it).
But if this were true, you wouldn't see all-time All-Star type players like Shaq, Wilt and Russell hovering around 55% for their careers. Drummond, when he gets drafted, will be arguably the worst FT shooter in the history of the NBA.

Free throws are a basic, fundamental skill that speaks to far more than just free throws. He can't shoot from the line AT ALL, he shot only 54% when nearly every single shot he did take was either a dunk or a layup, and he had all of 15 assists in nearly 1000 minutes of floor time. The things he did do he did because he's big and can jump high, but he has no basketball skills to build on. It takes an extreme talent to overcome those kinds of weaknesses and still be a decent player, and if I were an NBA team, I wouldn't bet on him.
   2241. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: May 31, 2012 at 05:00 PM (#4144551)
Post deleted (written an hour or so back, LA Hombre covered some of it).

I will note: Eric Snow shot 18-71 from the line his first two years of college (25.4%). 45% as a junior, 61% as a senior, 76% as a pro. Dramatic growth can happen and Drummond's physical tools (unrelated to free throw shooting) are impressive. But I'm not betting on him - no way.
   2242. Maxwn Posted: May 31, 2012 at 05:13 PM (#4144576)
The things he did do he did because he's big and can jump high, but he has no basketball skills to build on.

You guys are giving me flashbacks with this stuff. It's...horrible.
   2243. Joel W Posted: May 31, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4144587)
How big are his hands?
   2244. tshipman Posted: May 31, 2012 at 05:25 PM (#4144593)
The things he did do he did because he's big and can jump high, but he has no basketball skills to build on.


Okay, here I think you're overstating things. He's an excellent shotblocker and offensive rebounder--things that take real skill, not just jumping ability. He's a legit excellent PnR defender, and pretty good as a roll man himself. He has excellent hands and rarely turns the ball over. He has a post game, but it isn't that good.

Again, the worst thing about him is that he doesn't have any kind of jumper--including at the charity stripe. But the good news is that he can add that if he's willing to work.

I think that he has a better chance at being all-NBA than someone like Harrison Barnes or MKG, and that is what the Bobcats should be looking for if they stick at #2.

You guys are giving me flashbacks with this stuff. It's...horrible.


Again, he's really nothing like Thabeet. He's three or four years younger than Thabeet was when he came out.
   2245. Backlasher Posted: May 31, 2012 at 05:29 PM (#4144596)
Does anyone have measurements on Drummond? I haven't seen them on DX, so I assume not. His wingspan, reach and neck length (kidding, kinda) will be a big factor.

Its on the scouting report video at DX. See Link. Wingspan is 7-5.

RE: 2nd pick.

I presume it is going to be MKG unless Drummond makes a push. Beal has also been a high riser. I want to wait until after the combine on June 8 before I make any final judgments.

   2246. Maxwn Posted: May 31, 2012 at 05:36 PM (#4144607)
Again, he's really nothing like Thabeet. He's three or four years younger than Thabeet was when he came out.

That's fine. I was jokingly responding to Hombre's description which does in fact sound very much like Thabeet. I haven't seen him play, so I'll stipulate that your client is nothing like Thabeet.
   2247. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 31, 2012 at 05:49 PM (#4144623)
Again, he's really nothing like Thabeet. He's three or four years younger than Thabeet was when he came out.
He's really nothing like Thabeet. Thabeet was literally twice the free throw shooter Drummond was and a far superior shot blocker. His offensive rebounding numbers aren't notably better than Thabeet's were. Neither could score away from the rim, but Thabeet shot 64% as opposed to Drummond, who shot only 54% from the field. Their turnover rates are about the same. And Thabeet coming out of college was considered a smart guy with a good motor and serious work ethic. Drummond doesn't have a reputation for any of those things.

Again, the worst thing about him is that he doesn't have any kind of jumper--including at the charity stripe. But the good news is that he can add that if he's willing to work.
It's not just jumpers. From DX:
When he did receive the ball with his back to the basket, Drummond was generally ineffective in post-up situations, converting just 22 of his 68 (32%) field goal attempts this season according to Synergy Sports Technology.
The same column also points out that his FT% was just 18% in his last 10 games. That's unreal.

If all a guy has is athleticism, he's a late-round project, not a lottery pick. I wouldn't bet my house that he'll fail in the NBA, but I'd be willing to bet my car or something.
   2248. tshipman Posted: May 31, 2012 at 05:53 PM (#4144625)
If all a guy has is athleticism, he's a late-round project, not a lottery pick. I wouldn't bet my house that he'll fail in the NBA, but I'd be willing to bet my car or something.


Saving for next year.


That's fine. I was jokingly responding to Hombre's description which does in fact sound very much like Thabeet. I haven't seen him play, so I'll stipulate that your client is nothing like Thabeet.


You all laugh now, but in six weeks or whatever, when the Bobcats draft him, and in the interview MJ says that he was convinced by an argument someone forwarded him from a baseball website, I'll be cashing my check for 2% of his contract.
   2249. Maxwn Posted: May 31, 2012 at 05:55 PM (#4144628)
And Thabeet coming out of college was considered a smart guy with a good motor and serious work ethic.

I can't remember anymore if you are right about this being the perception at the time, but the good motor and work ethic stuff turned out not to be the case in the NBA.
   2250. Maxwn Posted: May 31, 2012 at 05:56 PM (#4144631)
Saving for next year.

This could be good.
   2251. Booey Posted: May 31, 2012 at 06:01 PM (#4144636)
But if this were true, you wouldn't see all-time All-Star type players like Shaq, Wilt and Russell hovering around 55% for their careers. Drummond, when he gets drafted, will be arguably the worst FT shooter in the history of the NBA.


It's rare, but there are some players that dramatically improve over time. K Malone only shot 48% from the line his rookie year, but improved to 60% his second season, 70% in his 3rd, and then shot between 75-79% for most the rest of his career (74% career FT). It can happen.
   2252. andrewberg Posted: May 31, 2012 at 06:20 PM (#4144657)
I presume it is going to be MKG unless Drummond makes a push. Beal has also been a high riser. I want to wait until after the combine on June 8 before I make any final judgments.


That's another one that might require a trade. Charlotte already has high draft picks invested in Augustin, Kemba, and Henderson in the backcourt, and none of those guys are particularly big. I have read that Beal is shorter than advertised (barely 6'3 in socks), which would provide problems playing alongside either of those small PGs.

I said it before, but I am with tshipman on Drummond for the Bobcats. It isn't so much that I think it's very likely for him to reach his upside, it's that I don't see the point in trying to get one of the other options. MKG plays a position where it is hard to turn a team around no matter how good you are (almost), and he does not have the offensive profile to make a big difference. Robinson is nearly a finished product (meaning the team can't stockpile high lotto picks while he develops), not a great fit, and probably not that much better than Paul Millsap before Millsap developed a good faceup game. Beal, like I said, mismatches with their other assets. Drummond plays a position that any team could use, and he's extremely projectible, both in the sense that he's a project, and that you can project him to improve.

I'm not owning it if Drummond flames out, because that is eminently possible. On the other hand, I will own it when MKG develops into a player who cannot be a superstar. That's the real issue.
   2253. andrewberg Posted: May 31, 2012 at 06:25 PM (#4144660)
It's rare, but there are some players that dramatically improve over time. K Malone only shot 48% from the line his rookie year, but improved to 60% his second season, 70% in his 3rd, and then shot between 75-79% for most the rest of his career (74% career FT). It can happen.


So what you're saying is that Drummond needs to start taking 35 seconds between free throws?
   2254. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 31, 2012 at 06:42 PM (#4144673)
I can't remember anymore if you are right about this being the perception at the time, but the good motor and work ethic stuff turned out not to be the case in the NBA.
Yep. Once he started cashing NBA checks, that all changed. I read an interview with the guy who worked with him in high school and college a while back (some foreign language site, Russian, I think) where he talked about how Thabeet would have a list of skills and exercises he had to do every single day. He stuck to it religiously, and became the #2 pick in the draft. However, once he got to Memphis, he got too good for his checklist, I guess, and that was that.

It's rare, but there are some players that dramatically improve over time. K Malone only shot 48% from the line his rookie year, but improved to 60% his second season, 70% in his 3rd, and then shot between 75-79% for most the rest of his career (74% career FT). It can happen.
Malone's always the example used for "guy who improves dramatically." He's the exception, not the rule.
   2255. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 31, 2012 at 06:45 PM (#4144675)
Saving for next year.
Can we define failure to be "not as good as Chris Dudley"?
   2256. Famous Original Joe C Posted: May 31, 2012 at 06:55 PM (#4144687)
So what you're saying is that Drummond needs to start taking 35 seconds between free throws?

Damn! Beat me to it.
   2257. Booey Posted: May 31, 2012 at 06:55 PM (#4144688)
So what you're saying is that Drummond needs to start taking 35 seconds between free throws?


Hey, whatever works. He needs to mumble whatever it was that Malone used to always say to himself before free throws too.

That's why Shaq and Wilt never improved. They didn't mumble (well, at the line anyway. Shaq mumbled in interviews all the time).
   2258. smileyy Posted: May 31, 2012 at 06:59 PM (#4144689)

Hey, whatever works. He needs to mumble whatever it was that Malone used to always say to himself before free throws too.


And try not to listen to Scottie Pippen.
   2259. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 31, 2012 at 07:01 PM (#4144691)
Greatest psych-out in NBA history.
   2260. andrewberg Posted: May 31, 2012 at 07:28 PM (#4144703)
He needs to mumble whatever it was that Malone used to always say to himself before free throws too.


"I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and gosh darnit, people like me."
   2261. tshipman Posted: May 31, 2012 at 07:31 PM (#4144705)
Malone's always the example used for "guy who improves dramatically." He's the exception, not the rule.


It was my impression that as a group, players tend to improve their FT% as they age.

Here's our main man, KP on FT's:

First, it's worth noting that there is a slight aging curve to free throw percentage. Players tend to improve by about 0.7 percent per season up through age 27 or so. The peak for free throw percentage is an extended one, as players don't really drop off consistently until age 32. Even then, the decline phase for free throw shooting is gradual. The other skills tend to give out long before free throw shooting, as illustrated by Bob Cousy's shooting in the movie Blue Chips.


Favoring my POV:

On the plus side, the players who made these improvements did tend to maintain them. The average player who improved by a statistically significant amount went from shooting 68.7 percent to 78.7 percent (precisely a 10-percent improvement) and shot 76.0 percent in year three.

A couple of superstar power forwards serve as the poster children for improving at the line. Chris Webber made the second-biggest leap in standardized terms, going from 45.4 percent during the lockout-shortened 1998-99 season (when free throw shooting was down around the league) to 75.1 percent in 1999-00. Webber had never previously made more than 60 percent of his free throws, but he only dropped below 70 percent once during the next seven seasons.


...
But also yours:

The experience of Webber and Malone should serve to inspire players working tirelessly in the gym. At the same time, a handful of examples do not set reasonable expectations. In general, history tells us that players are who they are at the free throw line, which is worth remembering the next time you complain about missed free throws.
   2262. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: May 31, 2012 at 07:32 PM (#4144707)
I'm with the Drummond backers on the principle that a high variance pick makes sense for a really bad team. (You could counterargue that Charlotte is so bad, with virtually no foundation to work with, that they need someone a little more league ready simply to move butts / even with Robinson (if he's good right away), they'll still be terrible.) But...
I don't like Drummond on O, I'm not impressed with him as a defensive rebounder, the ast/to numbers are a red flag and I don't like his motor. No way in hell do I tab him @ 2.
   2263. robinred Posted: May 31, 2012 at 09:04 PM (#4144775)
Bitter Mouse posted this on the site re-org thread:

(especially the NBA thread empire, which taken as a whole is the coolest thing I have ever read on the internet).


The thread started on May 4, 2009. Personally, I think Grantland should do a feature on it (heh).
   2264. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: May 31, 2012 at 09:47 PM (#4144808)
I would try to trade down (to 6-7ish) and pick up Harrison Barnes. He's still really young and has good size and athleticism.

I think he's at a low point on his value right now, and is a good opportunity to pick up cheap.


I just need to make my obligatory Harrison Barnes should not be a lottery pick observation. I'd also like to note that whatever teams end up with Jeremy Lamb and/or Doron Lamb will be very pleased.
   2265. smileyy Posted: May 31, 2012 at 10:01 PM (#4144815)
My NBA Draft prediction: Jeremy Lamb will be one of those guys who scores a lot of points that you don't want on your team. I'm getting nothing but knucklehead. Maybe I'm wrong and he'll put it together.
   2266. Spivey Posted: May 31, 2012 at 10:06 PM (#4144818)
Charlotte is so, so terrible I think the upside argument doesn't necessarily apply. Even if Robinson is a solid regular from day one, they're still going to be awful. I also don't agree he doesn't have any upside. First off, I think we don't really have a great idea what a players ceiling is. He's limited by his height but his athleticism is there and he can continue to refine his game. Also, for him in particular I think this is especially true. I don't see why he's expected to have low upside either - last year was a breakout year and he mostly rode the bench before it. I don't see why that big step forward is the only one we can expect.

I'd take him over Drummond.I think this is very much a year where the talent between 2-20 is very level. I don't like MKG. He's a wing who is tenacious, but isn't really a scorer or a passer. I don't think his rebounding is going to perfectly translate because he doesn't have elite athleticism from what I remember of watching Kentucky.
   2267. robinred Posted: May 31, 2012 at 10:08 PM (#4144820)
I think CHA should take Drummond, based on what I know, or try to trade down for two picks.
   2268. Spivey Posted: May 31, 2012 at 10:09 PM (#4144822)
I agree Lamb seems like a head case, but he has a lot of talent - more than MKG in my opinion. Calhoun runs a #### program, so perhaps getting into a good organization will straighten him out.
   2269. tshipman Posted: May 31, 2012 at 10:21 PM (#4144834)
BTW: SAS looking very vincible when they turn it over 13 times in the half. Sort of seems to be their weakness.
   2270. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 31, 2012 at 10:22 PM (#4144838)
Tim Duncan just passed Kareem for all-time postseason blocks with 477. The asterisk, of course, as ProHoopsHistory points out, is that Kareem's first 41 playoff games aren't accounted for. At his career rate that's 98 more blocks, and Russell and Wilt might have had a couple too...
   2271. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: May 31, 2012 at 10:26 PM (#4144839)
[2265, 2268] Maybe I missed something, what about Lamb indicates he may be a headcase?
   2272. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: May 31, 2012 at 10:31 PM (#4144840)
to reach back to last page:


Some Sixers-related news:

1. Doug Collins is staying
2. As expected, Lou Williams will probably exercise his option. He wants a long-term deal.
3. Elton Brand also wants a long-term deal, and is willing to renegotiate.
4. Rumors that Rod Thorn is considering retirement. Who knew the guy was still working?

A lot of Sixers fans take out their frustrations on Lou and want him gone. The problem with Williams is he ends up with the ball a lot in crucial situations, as STEAGLES has noted many times, the Sixers had an unbelievably horrific record in close games, and a lot of those losses ended with Lou shooting a long 3 when down 2 or dribbling down to 1.5 seconds before making a bad pass or shot.

To me that says a lot more about the state of the Sixers than Lou Williams. You can't compare him to a starting SG let alone Kobe or Dwyane Wade -- Williams is a guy who plays 25-28 mins a game and provides instant offense off the bench and he's really good at that role. Granted, he's probably going to want a lot more money, and if some team wants to throw a huge contract his way and make him a starter, good for him. But definitely a guy I'd like to have back at a reasonable contract.

That said, with Collins coming back, it's probably not ideal to have all three of Williams, Turner and Iguodala returning.

Elton Brand has been a warrior and a really nice player over the course of his career. It seems he wants to finish his career in Philly. Unfortunately, signing him to some 2-3 year extension seems like a bad idea unless it's on a super team-friendly deal. Amnesty him, trade his expiring contract or get him back well below market value. Anything else would probably be a disaster.
1, there was talk about extending doug collins contract, but that seems insane to me. he almost burned out in february/march, and there's still a year left, plus a team option for 2013-2014. guaranteeing anything more than that seems to me to be a terrible use of resources, considering that, if the team is good, he'll want to stay, and if the team is bad, you'll want to change coaches anyway. maybe collins hinted that he could walk away from the job without the added guarantee, but to me, if he's using that as leverage, they'd be better off calling his bluff and going into next year without him.

2, i kind of want to keep brand, since i think he's still capable of being a productive player, but he's guaranteed 18 mil next year, and even if they renegotiate to spread that out over 3 years, instead of just the 1, i don't think that's a good investment. i think the smart move is to just be done with him, either by amnestying him this summer, or letting him walk the next.

3, i'm actually probably the biggest supporter of lou in this town, and i think this team is going to take a big hit if they let him walk without finding an adequate replacement.
   2273. JC in DC Posted: May 31, 2012 at 10:37 PM (#4144843)
On the CHA taking Drummond thing, isn't there a chance that MJ will be scared off from making what (should Drummond fail) some will see as another disastrous pick?

Regardless of that, I'm with Spivey on both the 2-20 being level thing and the upside on Robinson. I like that guy and would take him over Drummond. But, because of the first point, I'd much rather pick #14 than 4 this year (for salary and pressure reasons). Maybe the Knicks can buy a mid first round pick this year.
   2274. robinred Posted: May 31, 2012 at 10:46 PM (#4144846)
Amick's mock draft has Drummond at 6.
   2275. smileyy Posted: May 31, 2012 at 10:49 PM (#4144849)
[2271] Jeremy Lamb: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jeremy-Lamb-6380/

While Lamb did show progress in some areas as a sophomore and was the team's leading scorer, his team's disappointing season will likely be a concern to scouts, as Connecticut's team chemistry appeared to be very poor, and Lamb didn't do much to alleviate some of the questions we've outlined previously regarding his questionable shot selection and passive demeanor on the court.


However, with backcourt mates Ryan Boatright and Shabazz Napier also looking to take their turns creating off the dribble and taking plenty of ill-advised shots, Connecticut's offense looked very ugly at times, with Lamb often alternating between disappearing for stretches and taking bad shots trying to assert himself in the offense.


The signature moment for me was as his team was losing in the first round of the NCAA tournament and the other team was (literally) holding the ball, waiting for the clock to run out, he stole the ball and then bricked a dunk: http://www.thevictoryformation.com/2012/03/16/jeremy-lamb-bricks-dunk-symbolizes-uconns-season/
   2276. Spivey Posted: May 31, 2012 at 10:51 PM (#4144851)
Sefalosha picked a good game to his the game of his life.
   2277. smileyy Posted: May 31, 2012 at 10:51 PM (#4144852)
OTOH, getting MKG as a complementary piece this year, still being bad, and getting another high lottery pick next year might not be bad groundwork for a team.
   2278. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: May 31, 2012 at 10:56 PM (#4144855)
I'm curious how much say MJ will have on their draft pick - I'm under the impression that he's trying to be more hands off.

The thing about the salary difference b/w, say, 4 and 14 is less about what they make in yr 1 and more about things like what their qualifying offers will be a few years down the line (as Beasley, I suspect, will soon learn).

Lou Williams - one question I wish had a more definitive answer with him is: how good is he on D? Reports vary widely.

Buying picks: With the new annual caps on how much cash a team can send out / take in - I imagine less picks will be sold than in the past.
   2279. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: May 31, 2012 at 11:16 PM (#4144865)
Lou Williams - one question I wish had a more definitive answer with him is: how good is he on D? Reports vary widely.
i think he's gotten a lot better. the thing about him is that he's been with the sixers since he was 18, and he's now 25 years old and he looks almost exactly the same as he did on his first day in summer league. he's very thin, but while he used to be thin and frail, he's now wiry and pretty strong. he looks the same, and a lot people here think he's the same player he's always been, but to my eyes, there's a definite difference.

both this year and last, his opponent's PER (on 82games) has been under 13. if you go back to '08 or '09 or '10 he's up around 16-17. so that would indicate there's been a change.

personally, while i think that there's been a noticeable improvement in his performance, my guess is that if you talk to 100 other sixers fans, somewhere around 95 of them would disagree.

looking at synergy, they have lou ranked 95 in opponent's PPP, but they also have his opponent's FG% at 36%, which is really, really good.

   2280. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: May 31, 2012 at 11:26 PM (#4144869)
95th isn't bad at all.

my guess is that if you talk to 100 other sixers fans, somewhere around 95 of them would disagree.
same for wizards fans, etc...

i think he's solid on D myself, just subject to the 2 in the body of a 1 thing.
   2281. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: May 31, 2012 at 11:27 PM (#4144870)
[2275] Eh...none of that strikes me as worthy of the headcase tag. YMMV.

[2273] NYK can't buy a pick because they used their money to get rid of Roger Mason and/or Ronny Turiaf in that deal with the Wiz.
   2282. Backlasher Posted: May 31, 2012 at 11:42 PM (#4144880)
While Lamb did show progress in some areas as a sophomore and was the team's leading scorer, his team's disappointing season will likely be a concern to scouts, as Connecticut's team chemistry appeared to be very poor, and Lamb didn't do much to alleviate some of the questions we've outlined previously regarding his questionable shot selection and passive demeanor on the court.

Lamb can be a bit sheepish. IMHO, the thing I would worry the most about is his frame and strength. More specifically, I would be concerned about whether he needs some time to fill out before making a continuous contribution. It seems like most of the NBA shooting guards will have about 20 pounds on him. It looks like he is putting on some muscle and focusing on dribbling in defense in his current workouts. See Chad Ford Interview

EDIT: Amick's mock draft has Drummond at 6.

He also has Harkless slipping to the Hawks. That would be incredible.
   2283. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: June 01, 2012 at 12:07 AM (#4144889)
[2282] The best part of the Ford interview is Lamb saying others compare him to Rip Hamilton or Ray Allen but him seeing himself as a bit of a Jamal Crawford. Maybe he IS a headcase.
   2284. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 01, 2012 at 12:27 AM (#4144901)
Lamb can be a bit sheepish.
Oh, you!
   2285. baudib Posted: June 01, 2012 at 01:44 AM (#4144930)
Steals: Thunder 14, Spurs 2
Turnovers: Thunder 7, Spurs 21

What in the hell went on in this game?????
   2286. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: June 01, 2012 at 03:00 AM (#4144941)
   2287. jmurph Posted: June 01, 2012 at 08:16 AM (#4144963)
From Hoops Rumors:

Former Lakers coach Phil Jackson was interested in the possibility of joining the Magic's front office for the past few days but bowed out late this afternoon, writes Brian Schmitz of the Orlando Sentinel. Magic CEO Alex Martins was formally presented on Wednesday with a scenario involving Jackson by Sam Vincent, who played for the Magic and Jackson. Ultimately, however, the former coach will be re-joining the NBA with an unknown club in an unknown capacity.


I didn't see anyone else post this, hope I didn't miss it. Any ideas where Phil is headed?
   2288. JC in DC Posted: June 01, 2012 at 08:39 AM (#4144970)
[2273] NYK can't buy a pick because they used their money to get rid of Roger Mason and/or Ronny Turiaf in that deal with the Wiz.


Are you sure? I thought the Post said last week they had $4 million or so to spend on it? I wouldn't be surprised if they were wrong.

So, good to get that winning streak distraction out of the way, if you're SA, huh?
   2289. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: June 01, 2012 at 09:14 AM (#4144979)
The limit was $3M in '11-12, $3.1M in '12-13. I don't know what constitutes the year, but this is something teams could get around if they wanted to - by A&B agreeing to the deal, A drafting the kid, not signing him right away, then selling his rights when the year flips.

jmurph on Phil: Saw that last night - was news to me.

I like Harkless too.
   2290. Backlasher Posted: June 01, 2012 at 09:15 AM (#4144980)
I didn't see anyone else post this, hope I didn't miss it. Any ideas where Phil is headed?

I have not seen any solid reports. Joshua Casey posted a rumor that Kupchuk was going to Portland and that Phil was taking his talents back to the Lakers in a front office role. See Link
   2291. jmurph Posted: June 01, 2012 at 09:28 AM (#4144988)
I have not seen any solid reports. Joshua Casey posted a rumor that Kupchuk was going to Portland and that Phil was taking his talents back to the Lakers in a front office role. See Link


Thought that might be the case. It will not be fun to be Mike Brown next year.
   2292. Conor Posted: June 01, 2012 at 10:09 AM (#4145012)
Are you sure? I thought the Post said last week they had $4 million or so to spend on it? I wouldn't be surprised if they were wrong.


The way I understand it is you can only send $3 million a year in trades. Knicks already sent that in the aforementioned deal, so they can't buy a pick.
   2293. Backlasher Posted: June 01, 2012 at 10:17 AM (#4145019)
RE: The Knicks

I have read that they are planning on working out Scoop Jardine and Tu Holloway; and that they have previously worked out Yancy Gates and Robert Sacre. Supposedly, they have worked out another player, but that player is unknown. It would make an interesting camp if they ended up signing/drafting both Holloway and Gates.
   2294. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: June 01, 2012 at 10:37 AM (#4145027)
Steals: Thunder 14, Spurs 2
Turnovers: Thunder 7, Spurs 21

What in the hell went on in this game?????
Well, since steals are turnovers, stat (a) perfectly explains stat (b). And it seems like stat (a) has a lot to do with the Thunder being a far more athletic team, and the Spurs not really being a particularly great defensive team.

The Spurs were amazing to watch in the couple of games of theirs I saw during the streak, but I kept assuming that a team built around a 30-year-old point, a 34-year-old wing, and a 36-year-old big has a distinct limit to how good they can be defensively, and this club seemed to be playing well above that limit point.
   2295. andrewberg Posted: June 01, 2012 at 11:28 AM (#4145066)
Lamb: Would love to see him slide to Minny, both for the fit and the "Lamb in Wolves' clothing" jokes.

WCF: I feel somewhat vindicated in saying that SA was not as good as they looked at home, particularly with whatever swings the performance of role players at home/away. Also, Brooks might have been a game late, but he pretty much did exactly what we all wanted him to do. He took Perkins out to switch more PNRs and keep up with the Spurs when they stretch out. He gave minutes to Sefolosha, who can add something that nobody else can. In fact, Sefolosha was way better at both ends than anyone expected. The offense probably wont be back, but the defensive length really changed the flow of SA's offense and is going to require some adjustments by Popp.

Jackson: The story I read said that if he went to ORL as an exec, he was going to bring with him a former player who is in the HOF, has no coaching experience, but is working for another team now, and would install him as the head coach and mentor him. Who is that? Seems like a tiny sample. Is Pippen with a team? That would have been a fun experiment.
   2296. andrewberg Posted: June 01, 2012 at 11:42 AM (#4145083)
What do people think of Beal in the short term and long term? There are not a lot of 2 guards drafted in the top 5 who pay off (but those who do like MJ, Wade, Allen seem to pay off spectacularly). If he is as good as Chad Ford says, that Washington team could grab him and stat moving forward pretty quickly. If they buy out Lewis and amnesty Blatche, that could give them money to go ater a legitimate frontcourt pairing for Nene. If they got Humphries, they could be a fringe playoff contender right away. If they somehow got KG, that is a pretty good team.
   2297. Jimmy P Posted: June 01, 2012 at 11:47 AM (#4145087)
The Spurs were amazing to watch in the couple of games of theirs I saw during the streak, but I kept assuming that a team built around a 30-year-old point, a 34-year-old wing, and a 36-year-old big has a distinct limit to how good they can be defensively,

Their defense wasn't the problem, though. They were outplayed on the other end of the court. Brooks made changes to how they defended (Thabo on Parker and switching on pick and rolls were big), and the turnovers led to lots of run outs. I don't think age really had much to do with this loss, OKC just outplayed them.

What do people think of Beal in the short term and long term?

Really good. Best shooter in the draft. He's going to show way more than he showed at Florida. If I needed a 2, I'd take him. I'd think about taking him ahead of MKG, honestly. Small forwards with their game built around energy and defense with shooting issues scare me, especially in the top 3.
   2298. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: June 01, 2012 at 11:52 AM (#4145089)
2, i kind of want to keep brand, since i think he's still capable of being a productive player, but he's guaranteed 18 mil next year, and even if they renegotiate to spread that out over 3 years, instead of just the 1, i don't think that's a good investment. i think the smart move is to just be done with him, either by amnestying him this summer, or letting him walk the next.

As I responded to baudib, this is not allowed. From the Coon CBA FAQ:

Only teams under the cap can renegotiate a contract, and the salary in the then-current season can be increased only to the extent that the team has room under the cap (and cannot increase the player's salary beyond the maximum salary). A renegotiation can only be used to provide a salary increase -- players can't take a "pay cut" in order to create more cap room for the team.


There's also restrictions on how much the salary can decrease in the extended years.

The Spurs were amazing to watch in the couple of games of theirs I saw during the streak, but I kept assuming that a team built around a 30-year-old point, a 34-year-old wing, and a 36-year-old big has a distinct limit to how good they can be defensively, and this club seemed to be playing well above that limit point.

For the season, the Spurs were only a slight tick below the Thunder in defensive efficiency. So while you're right that their defense was most likely overachieving, it also was not as bad as last night. Of course, their defense wasn't the reason they lost.

Also, Brooks might have been a game late, but he pretty much did exactly what we all wanted him to do. He took Perkins out to switch more PNRs and keep up with the Spurs when they stretch out. He gave minutes to Sefolosha, who can add something that nobody else can. In fact, Sefolosha was way better at both ends than anyone expected. The offense probably wont be back, but the defensive length really changed the flow of SA's offense and is going to require some adjustments by Popp.

Exactly.

Is Pippen with a team?

He's on the Bulls payroll, as an ambassador, I think. He has previously talked about wanting to coach, but never has.

What do people think of Beal in the short term and long term?

Hollinger is pretty critical of his shooting. And he's also undersized. So I don't know.
   2299. andrewberg Posted: June 01, 2012 at 11:56 AM (#4145096)
Are we making too much of the limitations of defensive-minded SFs? In recent years, Iguodla, Deng, Artest, Marion, and Josh Smith have made all star games. Battier, Bowen, Prince, and Tony Allen have been highly valued contributors with varying abilities to shoot. Some of those guys taught themselves to make a decent number of corner threes, but that is about the best you can say for any of their shooting. Would Tayshawn Prince be a bad outcome for MKG at the 2nd or 3rd pick? That seems like a fair outcome to me, even if teams wish they could get more.
   2300. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: June 01, 2012 at 12:02 PM (#4145101)
flip...
Page 23 of 24 pages ‹ First  < 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 > 

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
TedBerg
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOTP - July 2014: Republicans Lose To Democrats For Sixth Straight Year In Congressional Baseball Game
(3308 - 10:43am, Jul 28)
Last: David Nieporent (now, with children)

NewsblogOT: The Soccer Thread July, 2014
(435 - 10:42am, Jul 28)
Last: Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play

NewsblogSchoenfield: Why didn't the Braves win more titles?
(71 - 10:42am, Jul 28)
Last: Howie Menckel

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 7-28-2014
(14 - 10:42am, Jul 28)
Last: Rennie's Tenet

NewsblogTigers Display Focus on 2014; acquire Joakim Soria
(9 - 10:38am, Jul 28)
Last: SG

NewsblogDJ Short: Maximum stay on Hall of Fame ballot changed from 15 to 10 years
(59 - 10:33am, Jul 28)
Last: Ron J2

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread- July 2014
(968 - 10:13am, Jul 28)
Last: Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band.

NewsblogNoble: Tom Seaver expects Derek Jeter to become first unanimous Hall of Fame inductee
(96 - 10:10am, Jul 28)
Last: BDC

NewsblogDodgers and Diamondbacks Triple-A teams involved in wild brawl
(17 - 10:08am, Jul 28)
Last: PreservedFish

NewsblogFull Count » Mike Carp explains why he requested a trade from Red Sox
(19 - 10:07am, Jul 28)
Last: billyshears

NewsblogFull Count » Mike Carp, Felix Doubront and the challenges of player discontent on a struggling team
(11 - 9:15am, Jul 28)
Last: Jose Can Still Seabiscuit

SABR - BBTF ChapterWho's going to SABR??
(101 - 8:34am, Jul 28)
Last: Foghorn Leghorn

NewsblogGossage on Bonds, McGwire Hall hopes: ‘Are you f–king kidding?’
(107 - 7:55am, Jul 28)
Last: Jeltzandini

NewsblogHall of Fame Announces Changes to Voting Process for Recently Retired Players, Effective Immediately
(84 - 6:38am, Jul 28)
Last: Sunday silence

NewsblogRoger Angell goes into the Hall of Fame
(28 - 12:49am, Jul 28)
Last: bobm

Page rendered in 0.7759 seconds
52 querie(s) executed