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Sunday, June 05, 2011

OT: NBA Monthly Thread VI - June 2011

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: whatever the hell is going on in that birther thread which I’m afraid to click on, and whether or not ballpark proposals are a great idea or the greatest idea.

(Link is to last month’s thread.)

Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 05, 2011 at 12:29 AM | 1710 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: general

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   1001. Ignatius J. Reilly Posted: June 22, 2011 at 09:35 PM (#3859861)
996/997 Make me happy.

EDIT: Is 996 just a proposal?
   1002. aberg Posted: June 22, 2011 at 09:39 PM (#3859864)
9 Kawhi Leonard San Diego St. SF Joe Johnson 96.5
This might be the strangest comparison in the group. We'll see what sense Sebastian makes of it tomorrow, in his final Clipboard comparison.


Nope, never would've guessed that one.

7 Jimmer Fredette Brigham Young PG J.J. Redick 96.3


Not fair.

Acie Law/Nolan Smith sounds exactly right. Tobias Harris/Kris Humphries is quite a ways from NJ's Melo-light. Montiejunas/Yi is my favorite cross-race comparison on the list.
   1003. aberg Posted: June 22, 2011 at 09:43 PM (#3859867)
Draft Express now has Minnesota taking Kanter and the Jazz Williams.


Sometimes it seems like DE jumps on the bandwagon of possible changes very early in hopes that they beat ESPN to a scoop. I'm fine with him, especially since he models his game after The Undertaker.
   1004. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: June 22, 2011 at 09:44 PM (#3859868)
[1001] Just a rumor a friend passed along to me.

Tobias Harris/Kris Humphries is quite a ways from NJ's Melo-light.

Pelton's spreadsheet is broken. He should take it to his mother's basement for repairs. I will be right on this one, mark my words.
   1005. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: June 22, 2011 at 09:46 PM (#3859870)
Also, Ken Berger at CBS reported that the Magic and Hawks are very interested in working out a Josh Smith trade, with the Hawks looking to shed salary in the process. What would that trade look like? Anderson/Bass, Redick, and a trade exception for Smith and Pachulia?
well, that'd add talent to the magic, but i don't think it'd make them that much better. smith's primary skills overlap pretty significantly with howard's, and if they're playing the 1 in, 4 out offense, i think that would just reinforce his bad habits (namely chucking 18+ foot jumpshots).


maybe they'd consider that step 1 in their post-howard plan, though. smith wouldn't replace him, but he'd do a lot more to maintain their continuity on defense than brandon bass or ryan anderson.
   1006. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: June 22, 2011 at 10:03 PM (#3859886)
Missed this earlier:
Said DraftExpress' Jonathan Givony via Twitter: NBA sources say San Antonio has offered George Hill to Milwaukee (#10), Golden State (#11) and Utah (#12) in exchange for their pick. Examiner


and this:

DraftExpress Jonathan Givony
Cannot believe Sacramento is legitimately considering taking on Richard Jefferson's awful contract AND giving up the #7 pick. Terrible trade
   1007. rr Posted: June 22, 2011 at 10:08 PM (#3859890)

UPDATE: Suns president of basketball operations Lon Babby told the Arizona Republic this on Wednesday: "We are not trading Steve Nash. Period. Exclamation point."
   1008. rr Posted: June 22, 2011 at 10:14 PM (#3859896)
It probably won't happen, but I would like the Lakers to take Goudelock with one of their numerous late 2nd-round picks if he is there.
   1009. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: June 22, 2011 at 10:18 PM (#3859898)
Orlando's defense could be devastating with Smith and Howard. I don't feel like they should feel like they have to play 1 in 4 out either... I don't think their perimeter players are good enough and win a title these days. I think Orlando's in a situation where they need to just get better, and Smith accomplishes that.
   1010. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: June 22, 2011 at 10:19 PM (#3859899)
George Hill is so much better than the 10-12 pick.
   1011. aberg Posted: June 22, 2011 at 10:23 PM (#3859903)
George Hill is so much better than the 10-12 pick.


In an absolute sense, yes, but if you already have Parker and you're trying to win next year and maybe the year after, it's conceivable that you might want to reallocate your value somewhere else. SA must be in love with someone in that range.
   1012. rr Posted: June 22, 2011 at 10:29 PM (#3859907)
SA must be in love with someone in that range.



My guess is that they have the hots for one of the under-21 international bigs--most likely Valanciunas, whom Ford thinks could be picked at 10 by the Bucks.

Speaking of international bigs, Ford said that John Wall knows Enes Kanter via the UK connection and really wants him in DC, so Wall has asked Grunfeld and Leonsis to try to trade up.
   1013. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 22, 2011 at 10:46 PM (#3859917)
Lakers offer of Lamar Odom for No. 2 pick in NBA draft rejected by Timberwolves
The Lakers tried to move up in Thursday's NBA draft by offering forward Lamar Odom to Minnesota for the Timberwolves' No. 2 overall pick, but Minnesota turned them down, according to two NBA officials who were not authorized to speak publicly about the trade talks.
...
Instead, Minnesota asked the Lakers for either Andrew Bynum or Pau Gasol -- two players the Lakers were not going to trade -- for the No. 2 draft pick. Talks broke down and the teams aren't talking anymore about a deal, the officials said.
   1014. aberg Posted: June 22, 2011 at 10:46 PM (#3859918)
My guess is that they have the hots for one of the under-21 international bigs--most likely Valanciunas, whom Ford thinks could be picked at 10 by the Bucks.


Good call. Sounds like a longer-term plan to replace Timmy. If they're right about him, then George Hill would be a bargain price to pay. Of course, we were drooling over Splitter not long ago.
   1015. aberg Posted: June 22, 2011 at 10:50 PM (#3859925)
@1013- The Lakers should offer Odom, the Wolves should counter with Gasol/Bynum, and both sides should say no. Unless LA isn't crazy about Bynum anymore (and indications are that they're crazy as ever about him), there's probably no deal here. That's fine.
   1016. PJ Martinez Posted: June 22, 2011 at 10:56 PM (#3859930)
NBA sources say San Antonio has offered George Hill to Milwaukee (#10), Golden State (#11) and Utah (#12) in exchange for their pick.

Utah has to say yes to that, if offered. I could see Milwaukee and Golden State turning it down, because of Jennings and Curry (and Ellis), respectively.
   1017. aberg Posted: June 22, 2011 at 11:41 PM (#3859964)
Fun Simmons trade column up.

It's based on a weird value premise, and some of the deals are not nearly as fair as he things. Still, this is right up my alley.
   1018. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 23, 2011 at 12:01 AM (#3859981)
My takeaway from the Simmons piece, more than any individual trade, though he always throws out a few pretty compelling ones (as well as some stinkers) is that I think he may have started Grantland to get himself coworkers. He has two different asides about running possible trades by editors in the Grantland office. Given his schtick, isn't he exactly the kind of guy that was born for water cooler conversations? Writing alone in his mancave for years must have been too much for him.
   1019. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: June 23, 2011 at 12:03 AM (#3859984)
For steagles:
The 76ers are continuing to explore trade options for Andre Iguodala, and league sources said that a deal with the Lakers involving Lamar Odom has been discussed recently.

...

The deal would have to include another Lakers player in order to work under salary-cap rules. One of the sources said the Lakers might include small forward Ron Artest, who will be paid $21.7 million over the next three seasons and has an early-termination option for 2013-14.

Sam Amick
   1020. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: June 23, 2011 at 12:41 AM (#3860008)
For steagles:
i would #### a brick for that. i think i've said it here before, but i love lamar odom. absolutely love him. thaddeus young was killing this league all year. every game he played, he stood out as the best player on the floor (on offense). but when the sixers played the lakers, odom ate his lunch, his dinner, and rubbed his face in a pile of his dog's kardashian.

everything young does well, odom does better. at least for now. to have both of them would be a dream.


and if we got artest out of that, too? i don't think i'd stop grinning until the eagles lost another NFC championship game in january. i know he's probably lost a step on the floor, but i love the man.



here's a question, though. how many minutes would odom see at the 5? i think he's got the length to play there, and he'd only really struggle against guys that everyone else struggles with, too. the howards, the horfords, the bynums. i mean i wouldn't think he'd be the starting center, but could he be that? at least when matchups allow for it?


seriously, the thought that this might happen is giving me serious goosepimples.
   1021. aberg Posted: June 23, 2011 at 12:59 AM (#3860022)
It's really funny that, given all of the ludicrous trades you have suggested, this extremely reasonable one is the one that you're over the moon for. I'm now hoping for it to happen just for your sake, even though I would otherwise be indifferent. Doesn't the age of each of those guys give you some hesitation?
   1022. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: June 23, 2011 at 01:29 AM (#3860060)
It's really funny that, given all of the ludicrous trades you have suggested, this extremely reasonable one is the one that you're over the moon for. I'm now hoping for it to happen just for your sake, even though I would otherwise be indifferent. Doesn't the age of each of those guys give you some hesitation?
ludicrous?


i'm over the moon on this for a reason. lamar odom really is my favorite player. i'd absolutely love to get the chance to see what he can do while he's still at (or at least near) his prime, when he's not bound by the system and the egos on the lakers. that i'd also get to see it first hand just makes it all the more appealing.


as for the age issue, that probably should be more of a concern for me than it is, but it's not like this team is gonna win a title with iguodala in the next 3 years. i really respect the guy as a player, but the contract and the offensive limitations really make trading him a necessity. if in the process of that, we can move him for two guys i absolutely love, yeah, i'm not gonna get too hung up over something that could very well not be an issue at all.


artest's contract sucks, but that doesn't worry me a whole lot. it probably should, but i have a feeling there will be some options in the new CBA that could make the thing somewhat less onerous.
   1023. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: June 23, 2011 at 01:44 AM (#3860068)
1500ESPN in minnesota is reporting that kurt rambis is out as coach of the timberwolves.


linkage
   1024. smileyy Posted: June 23, 2011 at 01:53 AM (#3860073)
I think Lamar Odom is an extremely underrated piece of the Lakers. You can't buy 6'11" versatility off the shelf.
   1025. aberg Posted: June 23, 2011 at 01:56 AM (#3860079)
ludicrous?


Hey, no offense, I've floated some implausible ideas myself.

1500ESPN in minnesota is reporting that kurt rambis is out as coach of the timberwolves.


Only Kahn could make me so nervous about such good news. The first follow-up is that he's considering Lorenzo Romar as the successor. As an alum and current employee of UW, I like Romar. He runs a wide-open system, they play good defense, and everyone gets along with him.

But WTF? He's probably not one of the 20 best coaches in college, why would the pros want him? And is it wrong that the fact that Kahn is interested makes me question whether he was ever a good coach in the first place?

Of course, that rumor comes from Wojnarowski, so consider the source, I guess. My top 2 choices are probably Adelman and Frank. I know I panned Adelman for the Lakers job, but the standards aren't quite the same. Success for MN would be embarrassment and shame for LA.
   1026. rr Posted: June 23, 2011 at 02:08 AM (#3860087)
this extremely reasonable one


Odom and Artest for Iguodala? Unless it is a prelude to other stuff, no thanks.

There are certainly legit reasons to be pessimistic about the Lakers going forward, but ISTM that some of the fanbase, the anti-Laker statgeeks, and others, like Magic Johnson, are overreacting just a bit. The team won 57 games again last year, and actually had a better PYTH i\(inflated a little by the 112-57 game) than they did in 2010. '13 and '14 may be ugly but I think the team will be good in '12 if they can upgrade the backcourt a little. I would think long and hard about getting rid of Odom for a very flawed player making eight figures.

, when he's not bound by the system and the egos on the lakers


How Abbottian of you. Odom works well as the #3-#4 guy, both in terms of skillset and mentality. At age 32, entering his 13th season, I doubt he is primed for a breakout. As I noted before, his USG was up since Blake replaced Farmar, jacking up his stats, and getting him the 6MOY award.

LABOA put it well once at BaskRef. There is often the assumption made that Kobe being the kind of guy he is causes the Lakers to underachieve. People rarely consider the possibility that his "ego" is part of the reason the team has won so much, and, that in Odom's case, he functions better as a 3rd option a little to the side of the spotlight.
   1027. aberg Posted: June 23, 2011 at 02:16 AM (#3860095)
Odom and Artest for Iguodala? Unless it is a prelude to other stuff, no thanks.


The reasons you lay out for not liking the trade are totally fair. I would point out that, in terms of market value, we have a pretty good proxy to measure these guys. Both were allegedly offered for the 2nd pick and turned down. It seemed to me, subjectively, that Iguodala was a better offer than Odom (and I know that part of it is age/fit). At the very least, they are in the same ball park. Bring in Artest's significantly negative trade value, and it seems like a very fair exchange of assets.

I agree with the second part of what you said, especially about Odom already being comfortable doing what he's doing.
   1028. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: June 23, 2011 at 02:35 AM (#3860103)
when he's not bound by the system and the egos on the lakers


How Abbottian of you. Odom works well as the #3-#4 guy, both in terms of skillset and mentality. At age 32, entering his 13th season, I doubt he is primed for a breakout. As I noted before, his USG was up since Blake replaced Farmar, jacking up his stats, and getting him the 6MOY award.

LABOA put it well once at BaskRef. There is often the assumption made that Kobe being the kind of guy he is causes the Lakers to underachieve. People rarely consider the possibility that his "ego" is part of the reason the team has won so much, and, that in Odom's case, he functions better as a 3rd option a little to the side of the spotlight.
it's hard to know exactly what odom's limitations are at this point. this is a guy whose career high's in points, rebounds, and assists per game are 17, 10.5, and 5.5. this past year, he was down to 14, ~9, and 3, but he also shot at the highest FG and 3PT percentages of his career.

his age means that we'll probably never know what he could have been as a more prominent offensive weapon at his peak, but i'll take finding out now, when he's probably only just past it.


i'd agree that it's probably not a move that makes sense for the lakers. i think their financial concerns and the long term health of the club should be secondary to the immediate on court impact for everything they do this offseason.

the new CBA will probably mean that they'll have to break the team up sometime in the next 3 years, but that'll be in the next 3 years. they should still be able to make a run next year and maybe the year after, and while getting iguodala will probably mean they'll be better 3 years from now, it very likely makes them worse up to that point, and since that should be their main focus, i'd be surprised if this deal comes to fruition.


i can still hope, though.
   1029. rr Posted: June 23, 2011 at 02:35 AM (#3860104)
. Bring in Artest's significantly negative trade value, and it seems like a very fair exchange of assets.


This is a common opinion, but I don't think I would characterize Artest that way. The 2011 Lakers lost in large part because they had too many perimeter players with the same weaknesses: old guys/guys who can't shoot from distance. Artest is part of that problem, but Artest still can be disruptive on D, works hard, and he mostly plays within his role. Walton, Blake and Fisher have "significant negative trade value" because they are worthless and take up cap space. Artest is a guy with a bad contract who still has his uses. The main short-term issues with the Lakers are that every backcourt player other than Bryant is BAD and that Andrew Bynum can't stay on the floor. Bringing in Andre Iguodala and getting rid of Ron Artest won't change that.
   1030. Tin Angel Posted: June 23, 2011 at 02:35 AM (#3860105)
Odom's numbers will go down and turnovers up without Kobe screaming at him all game long. He's a space cadet and it will only get worse if he's not on a team competing for a championship. He's got Khloe and his reality show to worry about, after all.
   1031. rr Posted: June 23, 2011 at 03:18 AM (#3860156)
@Chris_Broussard As far as Odom, Teams worried he won't b happy or motivated outside of LA. That's decreasing his value on market....


@Chris_Broussard I'm told Minny taking D Will if don't trade no. 2 pick...Kanter talk is a smokescreen...Sac not trading for TParker b/c of TP's contract...
   1032. Der-K: downgraded to lurker Posted: June 23, 2011 at 03:25 AM (#3860161)
rumor: biyombo has a medical red flag (back)
   1033. rr Posted: June 23, 2011 at 05:00 AM (#3860197)
1032

Hmmm. He is a guy I think the Mocks are right about--Detroit at 8. Could change now, perhaps.

Odom+Artest/Iguodala:

I see berg's reasoning--if you land Iguodala, Artest is totally useless, so getting rid of him is a bonus. Even with no depth behind them, massive paychecks in front of them, and Bynum's knees shaky beneath him, Iguodala/Gasol/Bynum is a Finals-caliber starting front line.

But the Lakers' situation is paradoxical, in that they have only three tradeable assets (Bynum, Odom and maybe Gasol) and they simultaneously need to get younger AND do everything they can to win now. This is why I basically go along with the fanbase meme that these guys should only be involved in trades that bring back elite players or young guys who are very good and who might become elite very soon, such as Kevin Love.

And of course, who trades guys like that unless they have to? No one.

On a specific level, Odom is getting on in years and has his faults, like most of the Lakers, but he is a very, very important part of the team, particularly given Bynum's fragility.

Also, while the Lakers' small forward situation of Artest/Barnes/Ebanks will not strike fear into opponents, I do not see it as a gaping hole of suck, either. I think Brown, unlike Phil, will put any younger guys who make the team out on the floor from time to time, and I think Ebanks will make next year's team.

So, while the deal is a reasonable idea, I wouldn't do it if I were Buss/Kupchak.
   1034. rr Posted: June 23, 2011 at 06:10 AM (#3860207)
Note:

According to Eric Pincus at HoopsWorld, Kobe is a big AI2 fan, and they have the same agent.

Kobe's record as a GM advisor, is, uhh, spotty, but I would guess he really wants Buss to get Iguodala.
   1035. akrasian Posted: June 23, 2011 at 06:24 AM (#3860209)
Kobe's record as a GM advisor, is, uhh, spotty, but I would guess he really wants Buss to get Iguodala.

Supposedly Kobe is upset at Buss over not being consulted about the coaching situation - so I could see a trade that made marginal sense that Kobe wanted being made, just to get Kobe's buy in to the coming season.
   1036. Norcan Posted: June 23, 2011 at 07:10 AM (#3860217)
rumor: biyombo has a medical red flag (back)


Apparently it's just a hernia. If that's all, it shouldn't drop him far. And why does it seem that only the PFs get the medical red flags? There was Blair with his ACL-less knees and Arthur had concerns about an internal organ that dropped him from a possible late-lottery pick to the end of the first round. Arthur's fall was a bitter moment for me because he came tantalizingly close to the Celtics. Doc admitted afterwards that they were hoping he would fall to them. Instead, they went on bomb with JR Giddens.

There are three complete games of Biyombo on youtube and he looks pretty impressive in most of them. He blocks shots in all types of situations without fouling and generally keeps the ball in play. He also showed a keen understanding of how to defend pick and rolls, which was mighty impressive given his inexperience with high level basektball. In other words, his defense isn't overrated by his high block numbers. The only time he struggled though was when he went against a guy who had NBA length and athleticism in D'Or Fischer, who was a great shotblocker at West Virginia and I'm surprised has never played in the NBA. That could be a warning sign, I don't know.
   1037. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: June 23, 2011 at 12:48 PM (#3860251)
i believe today is draft day. T-11 hours.



i hope whoever's in charge brings their A game.
   1038. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: June 23, 2011 at 01:29 PM (#3860284)
Before anything happens, I'd like to put it out there that my dream scenario for tonight* involves the Knicks buying/somehow acquiring a late 1st and early 2nd rounder and walking away with Mirotic, Selby and one of Vucecic/Shumpert/Faried *crosses fingers*

*-It should be noted that last year's dream centered on Lance Stephenson...but '09s was Rubio/Curry
   1039. Jimmy P Posted: June 23, 2011 at 02:55 PM (#3860350)
He's a space cadet and it will only get worse if he's not on a team competing for a championship. He's got Khloe and his reality show to worry about, after all

This. I was always a big Odom detractor - so much talent unused - but he's played great the last few years. The thing is, he's just not asked to be the focus. He's always the #3 option on the court. I think if he has to be #1 or #2 he'll be in trouble.

This doesn't even mention the fact that he signed with LA to be in LA. He admitted it. He even said before his deal that he wanted to stay in LA because he likes the beach. How does he react going to someplace without a beach and is cold? Then you add in his wife whose whole career is based on being with her sisters and being in LA. If she moves, she's not going to be happy. If she doesn't, he's not going to be happy.

I guess I'm saying, I do it if I'm the Lakers and don't touch it if I'm Philly. They can get a better deal for Iggy elsewhere.

Chad Ford was on Simmons' podcast. Lots of good draft tidbits, and some ridiculous Simmons draft thoughts. Ford came up with an absolute shocker in the last 15 minutes, though. This was just his speculation, no truth or sources, so take it as 100% speculation. Magic trades Dwight and Arenas to the Lakers for Pau, Bynum, and Odom. Ford thinks that Orlando actually holds the cards because Dwight's only going to go to bigger market teams, and none of them have cap space. So he'll have to work with Otis Smith to get it done, which means Otis can hold out for huge deals. Not sure if it'll happen, even Ford says he doesn't think Otis is a good enough negotiator to make it happen, but it's a fun thought. Like I said, the last 20 minutes or so this is what they talk about, and it's entertaining.
   1040. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: June 23, 2011 at 03:08 PM (#3860355)
I think robin is underrating Iggy, very slightly overrating Odom (after adjusting for context) and really overrating Odom's and Artest's trade values. I do agree context matters, and everything the Lakers do has to allow for the half year Bynum isn't around, so I also understand the hesitance to deal Odom. I think the Sixers could send another piece back in that deal (Nocioni?). As a non-Laker fan, I do see SF as a weakness on that team (and PG a black hole), so in an ideal situation they would deal from strength to address the weaknesses. If they do deal Odom, they need to find a quality big backup, which is obviously easier said than done.

And of course, steagles is overrating both Odom and Artest (and Thad Young). That new Sixers team would be a very oddly age distributed team, no one between the age of 25 and 30. That team still isn't a serious threat for the top 3 in the East, IMO.
   1041. aberg Posted: June 23, 2011 at 03:28 PM (#3860375)
This doesn't even mention the fact that he signed with LA to be in LA. He admitted it. He even said before his deal that he wanted to stay in LA because he likes the beach. How does he react going to someplace without a beach and is cold? Then you add in his wife whose whole career is based on being with her sisters and being in LA. If she moves, she's not going to be happy. If she doesn't, he's not going to be happy.


Never underestimate the immense drawing power of the Garden State's boardwalks. Seriously though, we saw the damage that Indianapolis did to Hank and Kendra. It can't get much worse than that.
   1042. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: June 23, 2011 at 03:34 PM (#3860377)
And of course, steagles is overrating both Odom and Artest
that much i do know. my personal feelings about the two of them probably significantly cloud my interests in getting this deal done.
(and Thad Young).
i'm really a fan of his. i love watching him work on offense, and if he can add 3 point range on his jumpshot, i think that'd make him capable of being the 2nd best player on a championship caliber team.


though, the fact that i think that is probably why you'd say i overrate him. i really do love watching him play, though.
That new Sixers team would be a very oddly age distributed team, no one between the age of 25 and 30. That team still isn't a serious threat for the top 3 in the East, IMO.
that age thing does seem to be an issue. odom and brand are already past their primes (barring a late career resurgence for either of them), and by the time turner, holiday, and young reach the peak of theirs, the team will be completely different.


how about this, though. brand's contract will be up after 2013. odom's contact will be up after 2013. nocioni's contract will be up after 2013. lou williams' contract will be up after 2013.


thaddeus young would figure to get signed through that year (and probably longer) this offseason. evan turner will still be on his rookie deal. jrue holiday would be a restricted free agent.

those 3, artest, and various future draft picks would be the only players under contract.
   1043. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: June 23, 2011 at 03:38 PM (#3860382)
Regarding the CBA negotiations, it appears that the owners have proposed to change the terms of the agreement for this past season in addition to asking for a much larger share of revenues going forward. The owners have requested $160 million from the escrow account of withheld player salary that is due to be returned to the players under the existing CBA.

“That’s money that players have already earned, worked for this past season,” said Derek Fisher, the president of the National Basketball Players Association. “That’s off the table, as far as we’re concerned. To me, it speaks to the arrogance that they feel in approaching us with their proposal, to be able to go back and reach for those dollars.”

Responding to Fisher’s comments, Commissioner David Stern said: “Players have benefited from the current system more than the teams. For them it has been a much better partnership. We are sorry that the players union feels that way since it doesn’t seem designed to get us to the agreement that is so important to the teams, and we had hoped, the players.”
   1044. Jimmy P Posted: June 23, 2011 at 03:46 PM (#3860385)
Responding to Fisher’s comments, Commissioner David Stern said: “Players have benefited from the current system more than the teams. For them it has been a much better partnership. We are sorry that the players union feels that way since it doesn’t seem designed to get us to the agreement that is so important to the teams, and we had hoped, the players.”


Can't say I agree with Stern here. The owner's agreed to the deal. Just because they've made poor financial decisions doesn't mean they don't have to honor a contract. That's pretty petty on their part.
   1045. nick swisher hygiene Posted: June 23, 2011 at 04:01 PM (#3860400)
I would deal Bynum, were I running the Lakers, because he's such a rare commodity and because he's damaged goods: it just seems like the perfect combo where somebody is likely to fantasize about his future health and overpay significantly...

....waiting patiently for RR to check in with his take on the "Our front line for Howard and the putrid decaying corpse of Arenas" deal ;-)
   1046. aberg Posted: June 23, 2011 at 04:31 PM (#3860434)
Can't say I agree with Stern here. The owner's agreed to the deal. Just because they've made poor financial decisions doesn't mean they don't have to honor a contract. That's pretty petty on their part.


He makes it sound like there were some unforeseeable circumstances that made their deal untenable. He's basically construing those circumstances to be bad economic conditions. Was that unforeseeable? No, it was actually quite likely. While the extent of the financial problems is probably worse than expected, the fact that they were assuming constant revenue growth is just stupid.
   1047. Jimmy P Posted: June 23, 2011 at 04:46 PM (#3860445)
He makes it sound like there were some unforeseeable circumstances that made their deal untenable. He's basically construing those circumstances to be bad economic conditions. Was that unforeseeable? No, it was actually quite likely. While the extent of the financial problems is probably worse than expected, the fact that they were assuming constant revenue growth is just stupid.

Looking past that, how are the players supposed to believe anything the owners say about the next CBA if the owners are trying to weasel out of the current one? While it may not be illegal, it sure isn't bargaining in good faith.

Lockout: 100%
   1048. smileyy Posted: June 23, 2011 at 04:56 PM (#3860456)
Asking for the escrow money tells me the owners want a lockout. It's $160 million, compared to the billions that are on the table, that's ashtray money. The owners want to say "We have all the power; we have so much power that we can break existing contracts."

Crap, coke to Jimmy P.
   1049. JC in DC Posted: June 23, 2011 at 05:08 PM (#3860470)
Before anything happens, I'd like to put it out there that my dream scenario for tonight* involves the Knicks buying/somehow acquiring a late 1st and early 2nd rounder and walking away with Mirotic, Selby and one of Vucecic/Shumpert/Faried *crosses fingers*


Well, I'd love them to come away w/three players as well, but assuming we get only 1, I think I want Tobias Harris. I find him intriguing, given his youth and apparent good attitude.
   1050. aberg Posted: June 23, 2011 at 05:09 PM (#3860473)
While we're on dream scenarios, here is my dream for today:

Wolves draft Derek Williams at 2, Montiejunas at 20, and trade Ridnour, Beasley, Pekovic to Chicago for Brewer and Asik (probably not realistic).

Go into next year with:
Rubio Flynn
Brewer Johnson
Williams Johnson
Love Randolph
Asik Milicic
   1051. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: June 23, 2011 at 05:13 PM (#3860476)
from yahoo (which is getting at something i asked about up in 1020):

One source involved in the talks said that Sixers coach Doug Collins “thinks Odom can play the [center] like [Mike] Krzyzewski had Odom doing in the world championships.”





and from one phillies board i lurk on:
ESPN SC just said Walton and Odom for Iggy?


rewinding DVR now
Ygbfkm.


Bucher

"It works...it certainly could happen...Doug Collins loves Lamar Odom... definitely makes sense."
Of course it makes sense, for the Lakers.

Unfortunately I don't think the Sixers should make a deal just because it benefits the Lakers.


I'll give up on the Sixers and never watch a game/post in the Sixers thread if they trade for Odom/Walton.


I'd rather have the Kaman/Aminu trade. Think of the all freakish Kaman game pics we could post all season
Yeah, at least Aminu is a young asset that comes along with the expiring. He may never be anything special, but an asset nonetheless


Really though, this LA deal would be a really shortsighted trade, and it would do nothing more than keep them afloat for a year.

My friend is a Lakers fan, but we had the Sixers 10 Big Games Plan this year. I texted him "Rumor...iggy for Odom and Walton...thoughts?"

His response: "#$&! no."
I'm never asking him for his judgement on basketball again. He just told me that he'd do Iguodala for Artest straight up, but "Odom's worth a lot."

It's a shame you can't choke someone through text yet.


Holy $#@! Walton has 2 years left on his deal? I assumed he was an expiring, and that the Lakers would not have the balls to try to include someone so awful who was not expiring
   1052. aberg Posted: June 23, 2011 at 05:16 PM (#3860479)
Listening to Chad Ford talking about how this draft is really weak at the top but strong into the second round, while next year is really strong at the top, but shallow. Of course, Kahn has a pick at the top of this draft and no 2nd rounders, and no lotto pick next year. Wonderful. Still mad at Barnes for going back to school.
   1053. rr Posted: June 23, 2011 at 05:20 PM (#3860484)
I think robin is underrating Iggy, very slightly overrating Odom (after adjusting for context) and really overrating Odom's and Artest's trade values. I do agree context matters, and everything the Lakers do has to allow for the half year Bynum isn't around, so I also understand the hesitance to deal Odom. I think the Sixers could send another piece back in that deal (Nocioni?). As a non-Laker fan, I do see SF as a weakness on that team (and PG a black hole), so in an ideal situation they would deal from strength to address the weaknesses.


I don't think Odom has enormous trade value and Artest has very little if any. But I don't think Iguodala is good enough that you give up one of the bigs to upgrade from Artest/Barnes/Ebanks to Iguodala, who would play about 37 minutes a game.

And the key word there is "weaknesses." The Lakers' issues are:

1. Distance shooting
2. Youth and athleticism
3. Being severely capped out

Iguodala does nothing for them on #1 and hurts them on #3. He helps with #2, and #2 only, at the cost of the team's 3rd-4th best player, a guy who is about as good as Iguodala, can cover for Bynum some, has a skillset that is harder to find, and has a much cheaper, shorter contract. Odom is older, but the Lakers' window right now, if they even have one, is 2012, so I don't think that is a huge deal.

There are a lot of bargain-basement bigs on this year's FA market, and the Lakers will sign one assuming the CBA allows it. So, Kupchak and Buss may think that Iguodala + 5 at vets' mimimum is > Odom + Artest. I might agree if I thought Bynum would play 75 games, but there is no reason to think that he can.

You appear to be assuming that since I don't think the Lakers should do it, that means I think the 76ers should do it. Not the case. Like berg said about the #2 pick/Lakers rumors, I don't think there is a quality deal there. Iguodala makes a lot of money and has his flaws, but I don't see moving him for Lamar Odom and Ron Artest as a real step forward for the 76ers team.
   1054. Jimmy P Posted: June 23, 2011 at 05:23 PM (#3860489)
Wolves draft Derek Williams at 2, Montiejunas at 20, and trade Ridnour, Beasley, Pekovic to Chicago for Brewer and Asik (probably not realistic).

No way. Bulls will have zero interest in Beasley, and if they aren't giving up Asik for Courtney Lee, this deal isn't happening.
   1055. rr Posted: June 23, 2011 at 05:25 PM (#3860491)
Ridnour, Beasley, Pekovic to Chicago for Brewer and Asik (probably not realistic).

Don't see why Chicago would do this.
   1056. aberg Posted: June 23, 2011 at 05:34 PM (#3860511)
I said dream scenario!
   1057. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: June 23, 2011 at 05:38 PM (#3860522)
I would deal Bynum, were I running the Lakers, because he's such a rare commodity and because he's damaged goods: it just seems like the perfect combo where somebody is likely to fantasize about his future health and overpay significantly...


Speaking of which, what is Greg Oden's situation--is he a free agent, or still under Portland's control?
   1058. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: June 23, 2011 at 05:49 PM (#3860537)
Wolves draft Derek Williams at 2, Montiejunas at 20, and trade Ridnour, Beasley, Pekovic to Chicago for Brewer and Asik (probably not realistic).

No way. Bulls will have zero interest in Beasley, and if they aren't giving up Asik for Courtney Lee, this deal isn't happening.


Where would Beasley play on the Bulls? Let's pretend for a second that the Bulls would take him (they won't), neither him nor Deng can play the 2. Deng averages about 53 minutes a game already. The Bulls would still have Boozer/Gibson/Noah, only Noah can really play the 5 (Gibson plays it for stretches, but he's listed at 6'9" which means that's not even true). So there's just no where to fit him on the team, and that's before the Bulls would even get to off court or character or effort stuff (which with their ridiculous standards he'd have no chance of passing).

I don't think Odom has enormous trade value

Fair enough. You said he was one of LA's tradeable assets, and while that's a sliding scales he really isn't that attractive to many teams.

a guy who is about as good as Iguodala

I disagree here - I think Iggy is unquestionably better (not to mention younger). Yes, Odom is a unique combo of skills, but that by itself doesn't make him more valuable (in fact, it's the reason he's probably been overrated in the past). I think if the Lakers had better shooting on the bench and at the 1, Iggy is an ideal compliment to Kobe (and would have been a good fit in the triangle).

You appear to be assuming that since I don't think the Lakers should do it, that means I think the 76ers should do it. Not the case. Like berg said about the #2 pick/Lakers rumors, I don't think there is a quality deal there. Iguodala makes a lot of money and has his flaws, but I don't see moving him for Lamar Odom and Ron Artest as a real step forward for the 76ers team.

Not at all. I agree it isn't a good deal for Philly (but I still do think it's a good deal for LA).
   1059. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 23, 2011 at 05:54 PM (#3860546)
Speaking of which, what is Greg Oden's situation


Oden is a restricted free agent; it's not clear whether or not Portland is going to extend him a qualifying offer, which would have to be $8 million.
   1060. smileyy Posted: June 23, 2011 at 05:56 PM (#3860552)
If I'm the Lakers, I want to move Artest. His offensive deficiencies no longer make up for his defensive value, and this is even more magnified on the Lakers. But there has to be a contending team who wants a plus-defender that has enough perimeter scoring already.

It's too bad Miami doesn't have any pieces or cap space to offer -- I feel like he'd fit them really well, except perhaps their perimeter shooting.
   1061. rr Posted: June 23, 2011 at 05:57 PM (#3860554)
....waiting patiently for RR to check in with his take on the "Our front line for Howard and the putrid decaying corpse of Arenas" deal ;-)


Simmons' fixation on the possibility of Howard's coming here shows both his strengths and his weaknesses. Simmons has a very deep appreciation for and understanding of NBA history, so he gets that the one of the keys to the Lakers' huge success has been that the three of the last four times a HOF Top-20 all-time center has changed teams in or near his prime, he has come to the Lakers: Wilt in 1969, Kareem in 1975, and Shaq in 1996. The other was Moses Malone. Shaq was past prime when the Lakers moved him to Miami, although he was still good. Pau is not on the same level as those guys, but he is an All-Star and is the best big to change hands while still in his 20s in recent years--and the Lakers got him, too.

So, in Simmons' mind, and apparently Chad Ford's, if the Lakers are going to keep being THE LAKERS, they need to get Dwight Howard. And there is some truth in that.

OTOH, the league is and will be different than it was, and there are a lot of moving pieces. It is hard to say what will happen in two years or three years, and it is important to remember that the 2011 Lakers, warts, sweep, and all, were not a pile of crap: 6th in both ORTG and DRTG, 57-25 with a 58-24 PYTH, and the team that beat them had a superb playoff run and won the championship. Like I said: '13 and particularly '14 could be very ugly, but I think the 2012 team will be good and there are things that will happen that we do not know about yet.

And, of course, Simmons has always done a lousy job of separating his fandom from his analysis. He really, really, really, really does NOT want the Lakers to get Howard, partly of course because he is a Boston fan still licking wounds from 85, 87, and 10, and also so that when he stops musing about reality TV and LeBron James, he can write about the Clippers taking over as LA's team and Kobe ruining his legacy by going SuperNova. So, that makes it hard for Simmons to analyze the situation, in part because at the moment, there is no situation to analyze.

As far as who holds the cards, etc. I am generally very cynical anout keyboard negotiating and speculation about leverage, etc. I see a lot of it here on baseball threads, particularly when Scott Boras is involved, and while people make some decent points, a lot of the time it is just another form of faux-analysis disguising fanboyism.

There are and will be a lot of different things in play with Dwight Howard's free agency, but Point A will be the same one it always is: what Dwight Howard wants to do. I don't think anyone knows this yet, including perhaps Howard himself. If I had to guess, I would say that he will try to land somewhere with Deron Williams or Chris Paul and won't be on the Lakers.


And RIGHT NOW, of course, Orlando doesn't have to trade him if they don't want to. This is the point the Kamenetzkys make every time some Laker fan on ESPN asks, "What about Drew and LO for D12?" That is pretty much all Ford had to say, but he played along with Simmons.
   1062. aberg Posted: June 23, 2011 at 05:58 PM (#3860555)
Where would Beasley play on the Bulls? Let's pretend for a second that the Bulls would take him (they won't), neither him nor Deng can play the 2. Deng averages about 53 minutes a game already. The Bulls would still have Boozer/Gibson/Noah, only Noah can really play the 5 (Gibson plays it for stretches, but he's listed at 6'9" which means that's not even true). So there's just no where to fit him on the team, and that's before the Bulls would even get to off court or character or effort stuff (which with their ridiculous standards he'd have no chance of passing).


If it was good for both teams, it wouldn't be much of a dream scenario, would it?
   1063. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: June 23, 2011 at 06:03 PM (#3860560)
If it was good for both teams, it wouldn't be much of a dream scenario, would it?

Well, if you're going to dream, can't you dream bigger than Omer Asik? (Perhaps that's a rhetorical question.)
   1064. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: June 23, 2011 at 06:08 PM (#3860564)
Hey, I'm un-banned!

Analytically, Shumpert should go in the territory where people are talking about him ... he's a very good defender. As a GT fan - that guy is hard to watch. (He was also easily our best player... sigh.)

On D'Or Fischer: I've said this before, but if I were a GM, I'd very strongly consider bring him over. He and Gary Neal were my two favorite x-pats last offseason (who were fa's and could've come to the states).

Did I read correctly that Bird thinks Lance Stephenson is the best Pacer?
   1065. rr Posted: June 23, 2011 at 06:14 PM (#3860569)
I think if the Lakers had better shooting on the bench and at the 1,


Exactly. They don't and they don't really have an easy way to get it, as I explained. You are putting Iguodala on a Lakers team that doesn't exist. Sure, if they had a good PG who could stick Js and another competent back-up big man, or even the cap space to add these things, you probably pull the trigger. They don't.

As far as Iguodala's being "unquestionably better" and Odom's being "overrated" I don't think either statement is entirely accurate.

As to the second point, people have a perception of Odom, based on how he looks occasionally when he is on and the matchup is right for him. But as I said a couple of months ago when we were talking about Jeff Green, Odom isn't great at anything. But he isn't really BAD at anything either--that and his size is why he works so well as the third option behind a ball-dominating wing and a Top 25 big, and covering for a quality center who gets hurt all the time. The Lakers, remember, played from 2005-2008 with Odom as the #2 option. He is not quite there for that, since he lacks a go-to move and a scorer's mentality. What he does now is perfect for him.

So, he is one of those guys who sometimes takes too much crap for what he doesn't do (underrated) but I don't see who you think is "overrating" him, other than me.

As far as Iguodala, looking at his career numbers and skillset vs. Odom's, I don't see a gigantic difference, unless you think Iguodala's D is so good it blows all other considerations away. Odom's WS/48 over the last four years is better than Iguodala's.
   1066. Jimmy P Posted: June 23, 2011 at 06:15 PM (#3860574)
Oden is a restricted free agent; it's not clear whether or not Portland is going to extend him a qualifying offer, which would have to be $8 million.

He's still got a good sense of humor. Earlier in the week, TMZ released a video where they thought he was Lebron and were pestering him. After he finally got them to believe he wasn't Lebron, they asked, "Do you play basketball?" Oden's response? "I tried, but I'm not good at it."

I still can't believe Portland would let him walk for nothing. Even at this point. But, considering every Portland front office person is either getting fired or leaving, who knows? If I'm a Blazer fan, I'm so nervous about the front office situation.
   1067. aberg Posted: June 23, 2011 at 06:15 PM (#3860575)
Well, if you're going to dream, can't you dream bigger than Omer Asik? (Perhaps that's a rhetorical question.)


Good point.

4-way trade: Minnesota gets Curry, Horford, Durant, Ibaka, Harden. OKC gets Darko, Webster, Ridnour. ATL gets Beasley, GS gets Flynn. Book it.

And the 2 pick for Howard.

Make that the 20 pick.
   1068. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: June 23, 2011 at 06:32 PM (#3860587)
As far as Iguodala, looking at his career numbers and skillset vs. Odom's, I don't see a gigantic difference, unless you think Iguodala's D is so good it blows all other considerations away. Odom's WS/48 over the last four years is better than Iguodala's.

I didn't intend to head too far down this path, but

1. I do think Iggy's D is almost that good. Plus, he would take away the tougher defensive assignments from Kobe, which may help Kobe out on the offensive end (he would be better than Artest against the wing players, but I can't speak for how much that actually happened this year for the Lakers and what they tried to matchup with Artest).
2. Minutes do matter, and Iggy plays more minutes than Odom. Odom has thrived in this smaller role, on this good team. I think someone like Iggy could also get a not insignificant bump by better teammates/less responsibility.
3. I don't want to take just one stat (and one I'm not crazy about either). Odom had a career year this year, by almost any measure you look at. If you think he'll be that good again next year, then there's no further discussion because I probably would agree with you. By PER, for instance, Iggy's been better 4 of the last 5 years (last year being the exception, and in addition to Odom's career year Iggy was hurt). However, 82games.com's stats liked Iggy better than Odom last year.
4. Once again, the 4 year age difference is significant.
   1069. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: June 23, 2011 at 06:35 PM (#3860590)
Oden: Will he be worth $8M? That's a lot to commit to a dream...
   1070. aberg Posted: June 23, 2011 at 06:41 PM (#3860595)
Anyone want to make guesses at how the lottery actually turns out? So many mock drafts around, it might be fun to compare what we anticipate.

1. CLE- Irving
2. MIN- Williams
3. UTA- Kanter
4. CLE- Valanciunas
5. TOR- Knight
6. WAS- Leonard
7. SAC- Walker
8. DET- Trade down for Houston's picks. HOU- Vesely
9. CHA- T. Thompson
10. MIL- K. Thompson
11. GS- Burks
12. UTA- Jimmer
13. PHX- Marcus Morris
14. DET (from HOU)- Biyombo
   1071. Jimmy P Posted: June 23, 2011 at 06:57 PM (#3860614)
Oden: Will he be worth $8M? That's a lot to commit to a dream...


Yeah. It's always the if he plays. If he plays, he's easily worth it.

The real fear is that he gets healthy and plays somewhere else. Very gun shy after choosing him over Durant.
   1072. aberg Posted: June 23, 2011 at 07:17 PM (#3860631)
In a lust to draft center Enes Kanter, the Atlanta Hawks are trying to engage the Minnesota Timberwolves in discussions to trade Josh Smith(notes) for the No. 2 pick in Thursday’s NBA draft, sources told Yahoo! Sports.

So far, the Wolves haven’t been forthcoming on a potential deal, but sources say Atlanta was still trying to discuss a deal in the hours leading up to the draft.

The Wolves have privately committed to drafting Arizona forward Derrick Williams with the second pick, but the Hawks want to sell Minnesota on Smith as an open-court finisher to play along with rookie point guard Ricky Rubio(notes).


Don't you dare screw this up, Kahn.
   1073. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: June 23, 2011 at 07:24 PM (#3860639)
Anyone want to make guesses at how the lottery actually turns out? So many mock drafts around, it might be fun to compare what we anticipate.
i'll play your game:

1. irving
2. williams
3. kanter
4. leonard
5. biyombo
6. vesely
7. knight
8. walker
9. singler
10. valanciunas
11. singleton
12. JIMMER!
13. klay
14. motlejunas
   1074. Norcan Posted: June 23, 2011 at 07:25 PM (#3860641)
Minutes do matter, and Iggy plays more minutes than Odom. Odom has thrived in this smaller role, on this good team. I think someone like Iggy could also get a not insignificant bump by better teammates/less responsibility.


I'm not sure that Iguodala would get a bump. He doesn't have the kind of offensive game to take advantage of being surrounded by better offensive players. He's not a very good shooter so he's not going to benefit from more open shots, not to a big degree and his iso game isn't good enough that he'll benefit from being defended by the opposition's second best perimeter defender. His efficiency might go up because he'll iso less but that might be more of a personal stat bump rather than him adding to the Lakers offense. His defense doesn't have more room to grow because it's already outstanding.

Even with fewer iso, there's still the potential that he'll be even less effective on offense because if he handles the ball less, that's going to rob him of the two things he does best on offense, create for others and go coast to coast in transition like Lebron. I think Lakers would get mostly the same Igudoala, maybe a little less, and that's an inferior player to Odom.

Also, 22 million combined between Iguodala and Artest would be a staggering sum to pay for the role of defensive stopper.
   1075. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: June 23, 2011 at 07:32 PM (#3860644)
Don't you dare screw this up, Kahn.
i love that for atlanta. smith is a space cadet, and if you put horford at the 4, he'll dominate this league. it's a risk, but if ATL is sold on kanter, that has a lot of upside for them.


and unless you're really, really high on derrick williams' jumpshot, that's a pretty damn good deal for minnesota, too. they'd still have a bit of a problem with regards to unit cohesion, but that problem would be there with williams, too, and at least with smith, you have a good idea what he'll bring to the table on a nightly basis in the NBA.
   1076. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: June 23, 2011 at 07:32 PM (#3860645)
Also, 22 million combined between Iguodala and Artest would be a staggering sum to pay for the role of defensive stopper.

Artest is going to Philly in the hypothetical deal we're discussing.
   1077. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: June 23, 2011 at 07:34 PM (#3860647)
at least with smith, you have a good idea what he'll bring to the table on a nightly basis in the NBA.

Do you? Especially in Minnesota.
   1078. Norcan Posted: June 23, 2011 at 07:42 PM (#3860657)
If Kahn sticks to his BPA strategy he employed in 2009, then he'll take Williams. I just don't see how Williams and Love fit together. Granted, they have diverse offensive games but both are PFs without much in the way of versatility to play either the 5 or 3, not on a good team with a good defense anyway.

Minnesota really got screwed when Harrison Barnes returned to UNC. Not that he was a surefire great prospect but he fit Minnesota's needs better and his ceiling was about the same as Williams.

I wonder what the draft would have looked like if Barnes, Sullinger, Perry Jones, Terence Jones and John Henson decided to enter. Irving I think would still go no.1, but Barnes at 2, possibly Perry Jones at 3, Sullinger at 4, Washington gets Kanter, maybe Terence Jones to Sacramento if no trade.
   1079. Norcan Posted: June 23, 2011 at 07:44 PM (#3860660)
Artest is going to Philly in the hypothetical deal we're discussing.


It's not Luke Walton as it's also been reported? I doubt Collins wants Artest on his young team.
   1080. Ignatius J. Reilly Posted: June 23, 2011 at 07:56 PM (#3860672)
Multiple mocks now have have Kemba slipping to #17.

I'd think that after he got outta the lotto someone would trade up to nab him.

EDIT: They may not have similar styles, but couldn't he at least be the Barrea-type guard off the bench?
   1081. Jimmy P Posted: June 23, 2011 at 08:05 PM (#3860684)
EDIT: They may not have similar styles, but couldn't he at least be the Barrea-type guard off the bench?

Sure. But, how likely is that? There's been many more short chuckers that have failed then succeeded.

and unless you're really, really high on derrick williams' jumpshot, that's a pretty damn good deal for minnesota, too. they'd still have a bit of a problem with regards to unit cohesion, but that problem would be there with williams, too, and at least with smith, you have a good idea what he'll bring to the table on a nightly basis in the NBA.

I agree somewhat. Where does Smith play? Are we putting him back at the 3? Hasn't played there in a while. So, you're again stuck with a glut of players at the 4.

Smith is also a coach killer. Rough player to bring in.
   1082. Norcan Posted: June 23, 2011 at 08:08 PM (#3860689)

Artest is going to Philly in the hypothetical deal we're discussing.


You know, whether it's Artest or Walton going to Philly, 15 million would be a staggering sum to pay to a defensive stopper. If Iguodala was a shooter and a solid no.2 perimeter scorer who could take over the scoring load when Gasol and Kobe rest, that would be one thing, but he's not. Since his defense isn't that much better than Artest and his weak 3 point shooting does nothing to address a big Lakers' weakness, he's not worth losing Odom.
   1083. aberg Posted: June 23, 2011 at 08:10 PM (#3860693)
Smith plays the 3. He was miscast as a 3 next to Horford because Horford played the inside and Smith had to try to spread the floor. He can play as a cutter with Love out of the way because he's easier on the spacing. He also alleviates some of the strain on the laterally slow Cs with his help defense. Other than a PG who can run an offense, that was the biggest weakness last year.
   1084. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: June 23, 2011 at 08:11 PM (#3860695)
Draftexpress says Kings dealt #7. Not known to whom/for what.
EDIT: rumor is to milwaukee

Healthy Oden is great. But what are the odds of that - and for how long?
   1085. JJ1986 Posted: June 23, 2011 at 08:12 PM (#3860696)
Draftexpress says Kings dealt #7. Not known to whom/for what.


I'll bet it's Utah moving up to grab Jimmer.
   1086. Norcan Posted: June 23, 2011 at 08:14 PM (#3860699)
In one of the most pointless rumors I ever seen, Denver and Portland are apparently discussing a trade involving Andre Miller, Felton and the exchange of the no.21 and no.22 picks. I guess I could see why Portland would do it but why Denver? This would be like trading Jarron Collins for Jason Collins.
   1087. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: June 23, 2011 at 08:18 PM (#3860705)
I'll bet it's Utah moving up to grab Jimmer.


If they move up, more likely they're hoping to grab Knight since he may be available if Jazz take Kanter at 3.

EDIT: not Jazz:
WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Milwaukee has a three-way deal with Charlotte and Sacramento, sources say.
   1088. Norcan Posted: June 23, 2011 at 08:19 PM (#3860706)
He was miscast as a 3 next to Horford because Horford played the inside and Smith had to try to spread the floor. He can play as a cutter with Love out of the way because he's easier on the spacing.


Smith did a fine job playing the 3 against the Bulls so I think he can handle the position on an extended basis but he wasn't miscast because Horford was an inside player. Horford is one of the best perimeter shooting big men in the game. He and Horford manned the frontcourt together because Atlanta had no starting quality centers.
   1089. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: June 23, 2011 at 08:21 PM (#3860708)
In one of the most pointless rumors I ever seen, Denver and Portland are apparently discussing a trade involving Andre Miller, Felton and the exchange of the no.21 and no.22 picks. I guess I could see why Portland would do it but why Denver? This would be like trading Jarron Collins for Jason Collins.
miller has a history in denver. he was a huge fan favorite there, before getting sent to philly in the iverson deal.



wait, that's not it.

miller's 2012 salary is non-guaranteed (according to storytellers). they can waive him before june 29th, and his cap hit is gone.
   1090. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: June 23, 2011 at 08:21 PM (#3860709)
In one of the most pointless rumors I ever seen, Denver and Portland are apparently discussing a trade involving Andre Miller, Felton and the exchange of the no.21 and no.22 picks. I guess I could see why Portland would do it but why Denver? This would be like trading Jarron Collins for Jason Collins.

That's a good deal for DEN in my mind given Ray Felton's Allen Iverson aspirations. However, I do wonder how Miller will adapt to an up-tempo style, isn't he a noted slow pace PG?
   1091. Jimmy P Posted: June 23, 2011 at 08:24 PM (#3860711)
Draftexpress says Kings dealt #7. Not known to whom/for what.


Milwaukee has a three-way deal with Charlotte and Sacramento, sources say. That's from Wojnarowski's Twitter.

I'll bet it's Utah moving up to grab Jimmer.

I'll continue to say it: Utah does not do moves to win the press conference. Charlotte and Indiana are two teams that do.

I guess I could see why Portland would do it but why Denver?

To get out of Felton's contract. Lawson's the starter, Felton has made it clear he doesn't want to be a bench player, and Miller's contract expires.
   1092. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 23, 2011 at 08:24 PM (#3860712)
The other thing about Oden is that they have to offer him the 1 year/$8 million, but they could also sign him for more money over more years. The hypothetical I've seen floated is something like 3/$15. That gives him more guaranteed money and makes it less of a cap hit for Portland. The questions are his future health (of course) and who else is interested, though that doesn't really affect whether they tender him an offer. I would be very surprised if they don't eventually, but I've read that it's up in the air, so who knows. (As a Portland resident and de facto Blazers fan [behind the C's, of course], I am very, very concerned about Paul Allen and the front office moving forward.)
   1093. aberg Posted: June 23, 2011 at 08:27 PM (#3860719)
That's a good deal for DEN in my mind given Ray Felton's Allen Iverson aspirations. However, I do wonder how Miller will adapt to an up-tempo style, isn't he a noted slow pace PG?


Played well at a faster pace in Philly, but that was a few years ago now.
   1094. Jimmy P Posted: June 23, 2011 at 08:28 PM (#3860724)
As a Portland resident

I thought I was the only one in the discussion here.
   1095. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: June 23, 2011 at 08:29 PM (#3860725)
one version of the cha/sac/mil deal has charlotte (now under rich cho) getting #7 (and dealing #19).

good aggregated twitter feed is at: http://hoopshype.com/twitter/media.html
   1096. Manny Coon Posted: June 23, 2011 at 08:31 PM (#3860730)
Smith is so athletic and has great length, so he's both a 3 and 4 not one or the other, similar to Shawn Marion or Lebron James; like Marion when he was younger he can probably fill in some at center even.

I know Smith/Horford isn't a traditional 4/5 pairing but they are very effective together. The Hawks weren't really losing in the playoffs because of those guys, they just weren't as talented as the best teams in the east. Smith is a very good player and dumping him for something more traditional probably won't make the Hawks a better team. If that trade is available to the Wolves taking Smith is a no brainer.
   1097. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: June 23, 2011 at 08:33 PM (#3860734)
rumor now is:
CHA gets: #7, Maggette
SAC gets: Salmons, #10
MIL gets: Cap'n Jax, Beno, #9, #19 (and maybe Livingston?)

EDIT2: Woj has #9 staying w/ CHA.
   1098. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: June 23, 2011 at 08:33 PM (#3860735)
Adrian Wojnarowski:

Partial of deal: The Bucks get Stephen Jackson, Shaun Livingston, sources say. Charlotte gets the 7th pick and Corey Maggette.


EDIT: Is Sacto really trading down in exchange for the privilege of paying Salmons for more years and more dollars per year than Udrih???
   1099. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: June 23, 2011 at 08:36 PM (#3860739)
CHA gets: #7, Maggette
so, charlotte has 7 and 9 now. hey! that works out pretty well. now you can pen both singler and fredette in the top 10. the only question is who gets preference.
   1100. JJ1986 Posted: June 23, 2011 at 08:36 PM (#3860740)
I don't get it for Charlotte. Unless it really is Jimmer they want, there's no guarantee that their man will be there at 7. Why not wait until the draft?

edit: Unless they're keeping the 9. Then it's obviously a good move.

edit again: rumor says they want TristanT, but he could be off the board 4th. Then Vesely and Valanciunas could go 5 and 6 and leave Charlotte taking Knight or someone else they don't want.
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