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Wednesday, October 31, 2012

OT: NBA thread—November2012

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what the site is really about: um…baseball?

link is to the previous month’s thread. 


oh, and since i can make everyone see this every time they click on this thread, let us discuss the…unique hairstylings of the sixers projected frontcourt:

STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: October 31, 2012 at 11:05 PM | 894 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nba


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   101. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: November 04, 2012 at 02:24 PM (#4292638)
nate was pretty good last year too.
   102. Spivey Posted: November 04, 2012 at 02:34 PM (#4292646)
Robinson's always been a pretty solid offensive player, right? Hasn't his problem been his very poor defense?
   103. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: November 04, 2012 at 02:43 PM (#4292650)
That and shot selection / willingness to pass. He also had a rough stretch where he wasn't that productive on offense (making him outright bad) ... this dropped him into the minimum wage bin, to the benefit of Golden State and Chicago - who have enjoyed his resurgence.
   104. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: November 04, 2012 at 02:48 PM (#4292651)
Nate was pretty much always good in NY, but he was the victim of one of Mike D'antoni's (many) idiotic player feuds.
   105. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: November 04, 2012 at 03:40 PM (#4292679)
sixers lost, and the game was never really that close. the knicks got up ~10 in the first quarter thanks to a run of 3s, and then they kept the sixers at arms length throughout the rest of the game.

the negatives:
, jason richardson rolled his ankle on a cameraman about 90 seconds into the game and never came back.
, nick young was ice cold. he shot 2/10 from the floor, scored 5 points and was -27. as a contrast, the knicks' version of nick young, jr smith, scored 20 points on 8/15 shooting and was +8.
, thaddeus young, the sixers starting PF, played 36 minutes and did not get a single defensive rebound. he also fouled out.
, the team as a whole had a 14:18 assist:turnover ratio. considering the sixers set that record last year, that's really very terrible.

the positives:
, jrue holiday scored 27 points on 11/18 shooting. he wasn't flawless (he also had 6 turnovers) but if they had gotten a second guy to step up, this could have been a game.
, evan turner and dorell wright combined to score 22 points with 20 rebounds, 4 steals and a block. they also combined to shoot 7/20 from the floor and turn the ball over 7 times, but if they can give you something close to this every game, while being, at best, the 3rd and 4th best players on the team (behind holiday and bynum, and then maybe also hawes, young, and richardson), the team will be just fine.


this was the first game of a back to back/home and home with the knicks, so there's the team will have the opportunity for revenge/embarrassment tomorrow night.

should be fun.
   106. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: November 04, 2012 at 03:46 PM (#4292685)
Knicks off to a good start. Rasheed Wallace is currently in the weird Greg Butler role. Strange.
   107. smileyy Posted: November 04, 2012 at 05:42 PM (#4292781)
Geez STEAGLES, if you're going to lose to the Knicks, can you at least make Carmelo be inefficient in the process? 27 points on 18 shots isn't doing it for my smug dislike of his game.
   108. Graham Posted: November 04, 2012 at 05:57 PM (#4292789)
Cross-posted from October thread - I just saw this new thread.

I'm playing fantasy basketball for the first time this year. What are the best sites to check for projections and tips? Is Basketball Prospectus the go-to site?
   109. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: November 04, 2012 at 07:57 PM (#4292854)
DeMarre Carrol and Jamaal Tinsley. Why the hell are they playing 15-20 minutes a game while Burks and Evans are riding the pine? Foye should be the backup PG over Tinsley, and Burks should take Foye's minutes as the backup SG. Evans should take Carrol's 15 minutes as the backup SF. Carrol and Tinsley should be the backups to the backups who only play during garbage time or in case of injuries.


Agreed. I know Foye isn't a good playmaker, but I don't think that's as big of a deal considering the Jazz' style of offense. Plus, Tinsley's advantage in playmaking may be mitigated by his complete inability to shoot or score.

Corbin seems to have inherited Sloan's obsession with scrappy veterans that don't actually have much ability (Jarron Collins, Keith McCloud) over raw youngsters with much more upside. Even though he plays hard and seems like a nice guy, I actually wish we didn't have Carrol; he's the type of player that will always get way more minutes than his numbers say he deserves because coaches love the heart and the attitude and announcers always talk about how he does all the hustle plays that don't show up in the stat sheets. That's great and all, but he doesn't do anything that actually DOES show up in the stat sheets, and that's even more important. This isn't some junior rec league team where you play the kids who try the hardest. This is the NBA; you should play the guys that give you the best chance to win. And DeMarre Carrol over Alec Burks is just silly.


Yeah, I was happy with re-signing Carroll when I thought he would get maybe a couple minutes a game. He's an easy player to root for due to his hustle, but he's not that skilled on defense and is a complete zero on offense. I don't see how that translates to a rotation player, and Corbin fretting over going with Millsap at the 3 (despite that lineup's success) because Carroll would lose minutes is insane. If the Jazz are focused on winning as often as possible this year, then Corbin needs to insure Millsap, Jefferson, and Favors all get as much PT as possible. If he's also worried about future seasons...well again there's no excuse for relegating Burks to the bench.

On another note, so far I've been disappointed in Kanter. He looks to be in much better shape, but after the praise he got for his performance in training camp and preseason I expected better. He's still consistently a step or half step too slow on defense, hasn't shown his supposed mid-range ability, and rushes himself in the post. It's only been three games of course, so hopefully he just had a bad week.

At least the new Jazz guys have all been impressive. Mo is a great fit with the Jazz' bigs, Marvin looks cromulent as a starting 3, and Foye's shooting off the bench was desperately needed.
   110. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: November 04, 2012 at 08:40 PM (#4292874)
Geez STEAGLES, if you're going to lose to the Knicks, can you at least make Carmelo be inefficient in the process? 27 points on 18 shots isn't doing it for my smug dislike of his game.
he was killing them from the 4, so it's not even like it would have made a difference if the sixers still had iguodala.

and to my eye, it looked like the sixers problem with him was that he could take his time and size up his shot before taking it. with a guy like him, i really think the shane battier method of defense is the way to go. forget about trying to block his shot, and just put a hand in front of his face so that he can't get a clear view of the rim.
   111. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: November 04, 2012 at 11:48 PM (#4293000)
Lakers are crushing Detroit.
   112. baudib Posted: November 05, 2012 at 12:02 AM (#4293009)
You mean to the tune of "DAAAAAAAAARYYYLLLLLL"? Isn't that supposed to be for MOCKING the team in question?


No, it's the chorus of a Fabolous song.
   113. smileyy Posted: November 05, 2012 at 03:07 AM (#4293064)
How long until "They should have traded Westbrook" becomes a thing?
   114. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: November 05, 2012 at 11:09 AM (#4293168)
There's been some unexpected results so far. Not sure anything is a cause for alarm yet - or more importantly, revised predictions - except maybe for Denver. They just look bad.

How long until Simmons calls the Magic a Ewing Theory candidate?
   115. King Mekong Posted: November 05, 2012 at 11:20 AM (#4293182)
Hmm think I disagree about the nuggets. They will turn the ship around. I can't wait for 82games to start publishing 5 man unit stats so we can start delving into specific configs for teams like the nuggets that are really deep. I suspect their lineup of Lawson, Iguodala, Gallinari, Faried and McGee ends up being their best. (based on watching a bit of the heat nuggets game). Anyway, will be interesting to see.
   116. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: November 05, 2012 at 11:31 AM (#4293208)
I think it's too early to say anything on the Nuggets. They lost to the Heat on the road in a close game (not a "bad" result) and then had two bad games prior to that. One thing that I realized though was that, IIRC, the Nuggets typically have a strong home/road split p and their early schedule is road-heavy.
   117. jmurph Posted: November 05, 2012 at 11:38 AM (#4293222)
I was at the Celtics-Wizards game Saturday night. Pretty terrible game, though I had great seats and Boston won, so it was a good experience. I'm still realy optimistic about the Celtics (they're very deep with actual quality players, which is new for them), but they have a long, long way to go. For this season to go as well as it could, I think Pierce and Garnett need to not so clearly be their best scorers. I expect Pierce will still lead the team in scoring, but Terry and Green and Bass need to be actual weapons out there, not just bit parts. And Rondo needs to turn into the guy who is consistently finishing around the rim, and not just do it in bursts.

Sullinger was relatively impressive in person, but holy god, he has late-career Larry Bird's jumping ability.
   118. Booey Posted: November 05, 2012 at 12:54 PM (#4293304)
Yeah, I was happy with re-signing Carroll when I thought he would get maybe a couple minutes a game. He's an easy player to root for due to his hustle, but he's not that skilled on defense and is a complete zero on offense. I don't see how that translates to a rotation player, and Corbin fretting over going with Millsap at the 3 (despite that lineup's success) because Carroll would lose minutes is insane. If the Jazz are focused on winning as often as possible this year, then Corbin needs to insure Millsap, Jefferson, and Favors all get as much PT as possible. If he's also worried about future seasons...well again there's no excuse for relegating Burks to the bench.


Yeah I was hoping we'd go with the big lineup more often this year (Favors/Millsap/Al) since it seemed to work pretty well last season against everyone but the Spurs. I think it was actually one of the keys to our late season playoff push.

I hate rooting against hustle guys like Carroll who bust their ass on every play, but when they're taking the minutes of clearly better players...well, I want to win, first and foremost. Everything else is secondary.
   119. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: November 05, 2012 at 03:34 PM (#4293528)
RIP, Jim Durham.
   120. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: November 05, 2012 at 04:21 PM (#4293572)
Reading Today's ESPN 5 on 5 and I can't tell if this is satire:
Real. The Knicks have blown out two playoff teams and rank in the top three in offensive and defensive efficiency. That's pretty good -- no team has finished that high in both categories since the 72-win Bulls in 1996...Lillard and Anthony Davis are so far ahead of the pack that it seems they'll compete with historically great rookie campaigns rather than their classmates...the [ROY] race is now Lillard's to lose...

Am I crazy or are people racing to make stunning proclamations regarding the prospects of teams/players earlier than usual this year?
   121. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: November 05, 2012 at 04:32 PM (#4293587)
They are, yes.
   122. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: November 05, 2012 at 04:36 PM (#4293593)
this is kind of funny, in a "jesus christ, could this be any more stereotypical" kind of way? these are the occupations of NBA personnel who have donated to mitt romney, according to the above link at hoopshype:

Basketball operations
Basketball operation
COO
Executive vice president
Executive vice president
Ownership
Ownership
Ownership
Ownership
Ownership
Ownership
Ownership
Ownership
Ownership
Ownership
Ownership
Ownership
Ownership
Ownership
Ownership
Ownership
Ownership
Ownership
Ownership
Ownership
Ownership
President
President
President
Strength and conditioning
Vice president
Vice president


the strength and conditioning coach, the COO, and one of the basketball operations guys are all from the celtics organization. the other basketball operations guy is daryl morey.

and to have a little more fun, here are the franchise owners who donated to barack obama:
Johnny Buss
Robert Epstein
Robert Johnson
Michael Jordan
Bruce Karsh
Ted Leonsis
Stephen Pagliuca
Bruce Ratner

and just to have a little more fun, i'll note that johnny bus donated a whole $600.
and to have just a little more fun, david stern and adam silver and billy hunter all donated to obama, as well.
   123. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: November 05, 2012 at 04:40 PM (#4293596)
Am I crazy or are people racing to make stunning proclamations regarding the prospects of teams/players earlier than usual this year?
i will guarantee that if the knicks continue to hit an average of 15 3s per game at a near 50% success rate, they will definitely break the bulls record of 72 wins in a season.

anything short of that, and all bets are off.
   124. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: November 05, 2012 at 08:55 PM (#4293832)
First flopping warnings are out. You're not going to believe this, but J.J. Barea is involved.
   125. andrewberg Posted: November 05, 2012 at 09:01 PM (#4293835)
Poor J.J. He gets concussed Sunday and has his livelihood knocked out Monday.
   126. andrewberg Posted: November 05, 2012 at 09:02 PM (#4293837)
Brook Lopez has done the swipe through move and drawn whistles on consecutive possessions.
   127. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: November 05, 2012 at 09:27 PM (#4293856)
evan turner has 2 points, 4 rebounds, and 3 assists through the first half. both of his points were the result of technical fouls. that's not good.

thaddeus young, dorell wright, and jrue holiday are having solid halves. 11 and 5 for wright, 8 and 8 for young, and 10 and 5 assists from jrue.

but the sixer who's had the biggest impact is kwame brown. he's only sitting on 4 points and 3 rebounds, but he's also a +6 when noone else is above 0. he's not exactly playing well, but he seems like a bit of a safety blanket, in that while he's not really doing much of anything, having him on the court seems to have calmed everyone else down on defense.


also, nick young is 4/12 from the floor for 10 points. that is not good.

and HAHAwes showed up in the first half. with the sixers being down 8 going into the 3rd quarter, it'd be really nice to get a visit from dispencer hawesome.
   128. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: November 05, 2012 at 09:28 PM (#4293857)
Nick Young in all his glory.
   129. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: November 05, 2012 at 09:32 PM (#4293859)
Nick Young in all his glory.
it could have been worse. the knicks could have hit another 3 off the ensuing possession.
   130. andrewberg Posted: November 05, 2012 at 09:36 PM (#4293860)
Over the last 6 quartets, wolves' opponents are 18-34 on 3's.
   131. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: November 05, 2012 at 09:42 PM (#4293864)
Ronnie Brewer appears to have picked up the corner 3. Not sure how he was signed for the minimum.
   132. Famous Original Joe C Posted: November 05, 2012 at 09:58 PM (#4293875)
also, nick young is 4/12 from the floor for 10 points. that is not good.


In 17 minutes, no less. 11 of the 12 shots were jumpers.
   133. Famous Original Joe C Posted: November 05, 2012 at 10:01 PM (#4293876)
Also, Rasheed Wallace: 5 minutes played, 5 3-pointers attempted.
   134. JC in DC Posted: November 05, 2012 at 10:13 PM (#4293884)
Knicks hammering the Sixers.
   135. JC in DC Posted: November 05, 2012 at 10:28 PM (#4293898)
Damn, either Philly sucks or the Knicks are pretty good.
   136. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: November 05, 2012 at 10:33 PM (#4293904)
Knicks are playing well, but the Sixers are missing Bynum and Richardson.
   137. andrewberg Posted: November 05, 2012 at 11:02 PM (#4293932)
Wolves overcame a 22 pt deficit to win, including 32-10 in the 4th. Big reversal from the first half. Kirilenko does everything, such a high percentage player, Pek was the other star, really good win.
   138. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: November 05, 2012 at 11:05 PM (#4293935)
Heat crush the Suns; led by 30 in the 4th. This could be the worst Suns season I've witnessed while in Phx in 25 years.
   139. smileyy Posted: November 05, 2012 at 11:06 PM (#4293936)
IOW, Nick Young is Nick Young?
   140. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: November 05, 2012 at 11:17 PM (#4293948)
I'm looking forward to this evening's Spencer Hawes update.
   141. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: November 05, 2012 at 11:24 PM (#4293954)
Knicks are playing well, but the Sixers are missing Bynum and Richardson.
that's not much of an excuse. the team they ran out today is 95% of the one that beat the bulls last year.

allen-brand-iguodala-turner-holiday
brown-young-wright-turner-holiday

williams, meeks, young, hawes
young, ivey, allen, hawes


with the improvement of holiday and young, and with wright being better than iguodala, this year's team -- without bynum, without richardson -- really is just as good as last year's.

I'm looking forward to this evening's Spencer Hawes update.
98% HAHAwes
2% dispencer hawesome
   142. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: November 05, 2012 at 11:31 PM (#4293957)
oh, and one more thing worth pointing out:

evan turner and dorell wright combined for:
61 minutes
25 points
18 rebounds
7 assists

they were only a combined 7/23 from the floor, but again, if these are your 3rd and 4th/5th/6th/7th/8th best players, that's really good production.
   143. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: November 06, 2012 at 01:12 AM (#4294061)
Just broke down and ordered League Pass on DTV.

With the Suns looking the way they are, it's a sound investment.
   144. baudib Posted: November 06, 2012 at 02:42 AM (#4294113)
I have to admit that I'm going to have a hard time rooting for the Sixers over the Nets.
   145. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: November 06, 2012 at 03:57 AM (#4294129)
I have to admit that I'm going to have a hard time rooting for the Sixers over the Nets.
go for it. if you live in brooklyn, and if you've been there for a while, it's a matter of civic pride, and it's a good thing to get sucked up into it.


although, it's kind of an odd time to jump ship on the sixers considering they finally got a franchise-ish player.
   146. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: November 06, 2012 at 04:11 AM (#4294131)
the strength and conditioning coach, the COO, and one of the basketball operations guys are all from the celtics organization. the other basketball operations guy is daryl morey.


And Morey worked for the Celtics before Houston hired him; in his reddit cameo, he briefly and carefully gave as explanation Romney's Massachusetts record as an effective technocrat (this is not the thread to go off on tangential rants about the national Republican party, huh). Setting aside that Massachusetts bloc, the guys who remain comprise an absolutely hilarious list.
   147. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: November 06, 2012 at 11:28 AM (#4294330)
and with wright being better than iguodala,

Anyone?
   148. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: November 06, 2012 at 11:42 AM (#4294353)
[147] I was going to leave that one alone. Along with his claims that T. Young and Holiday have improved since last year (1 week into the season) and the opinion that this year's team less Richardson and Bynum is better than last year's and the strange twisting of reality needed to say that Evan Turner and D. Wright generated good production last night.
   149. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: November 06, 2012 at 11:46 AM (#4294359)
So when will Chase, oops, Andrew Bynum really be ready to play?
   150. Conor Posted: November 06, 2012 at 11:52 AM (#4294370)
Obviously it's only three games, but I wonder if anyone has any idea how teams that after their first 3 games have a margin of victory of nearly 20 points seem to do. Before the season I pegged the Knicks for 48ish wins, and right in the middle of the cluster of teams in the east behind the Heat. That's probably the prediction I would stick with (certainly they're not going to be as good as Miami) but I guess the larger question is how quickly into the season should we adjust our expectations of teams?

Of course, Orlando has a margin of victory of 17 over their first 2 games as well. But to say I'm pleasantly surprised by this start is an understatement.
   151. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: November 06, 2012 at 11:58 AM (#4294377)
Obviously it's only three games, but I wonder if anyone has any idea how teams that after their first 3 games have a margin of victory of nearly 20 points seem to do. Before the season I pegged the Knicks for 48ish wins, and right in the middle of the cluster of teams in the east behind the Heat. That's probably the prediction I would stick with (certainly they're not going to be as good as Miami) but I guess the larger question is how quickly into the season should we adjust our expectations of teams?

2 of the wins are against the same team, so that discounts it a little. I don't seriously start to question my expectations until somewhere between 15-20 games*, unless something like a trade or injury significantly changes the roster. Also, since the Knicks are an old team, they might look worse as the season drags on.

*I'm a natural pessimist though, so it took a lot longer for me the buy the Bulls 2 years ago (maybe around the All Star break I thought they might actually be a contender) and I'm already ready to admit I still overestimated them this year.
   152. Conor Posted: November 06, 2012 at 12:06 PM (#4294385)
2 of the wins are against the same team, so that discounts it a little. I don't seriously start to question my expectations until somewhere between 15-20 games*, unless something like a trade or injury significantly changes the roster. Also, since the Knicks are an old team, they might look worse as the season drags on.


Yeah, that's probably right. (And I hear you on Philly, especially since Bynum didn't play). It's funny on the old thing; have a ton of old guys on the team, but they do have a decent amount of depth and most of the important players are on the younger side. Chandler is 30, Melo is 28, Felton is 28, Brewer is 27, JR Smith is 27, Shump is 22, Amare is 30. You then have like the 5 oldest players in the league, granted. But a lot of that is duplicating positions; Camby/Thomas/Wallace are all really old, but it's possible they really only need to play one of those guys. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out as the season goes on though. Camby still hasn't been able to get on the floor.

I think there is probably a level of play in a smaller sample to start the season than 15-20 games that might be enough to significantly alter my expectations for a team, but the Knicks haven't reached it yet.
   153. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: November 06, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4294398)
anyone?
Forget it, he's rolling.
   154. Booey Posted: November 06, 2012 at 12:32 PM (#4294422)
Jazz lost their 3rd game in a row (thank you schedule makers for giving us 8 of our first 11 games on the road), but I was encouraged that Corbin played our big front line with Millsap at the 3 for extended minutes, and that Burks and Evans actually played instead of Carroll and Tinsley. Why the team doesn't just consult me from the beginning of every season remains a mystery...

As to hot starts, the two worst Jazz seasons of the last 30ish years began with promise; the 2005 Jazz (26-56) started out 6-1, and the 2011 Jazz (39-43) were 15-5 through 20 games and 27-14 at the halfway point before the DWill/Sloan drama caused the entire season to crumble in historically awful fashion.

In other words, it's WAY too early to start adjusting predictions for any team based on 3-4 good or bad games.
   155. andrewberg Posted: November 06, 2012 at 01:39 PM (#4294550)
New to my life, the beauty of having Russians/Eastern Europeans in postgame interviews:

"I don't know what happened, but maybe they just started missing their shots," Shved said. "Before that, they make everything. After that, they miss."

"We just looked like one great team," starting center Nikola Pekovic said afterward, "what we're going to be."

"I've been waiting for this a long time (Shved's haircut)," said Kirilenko, his CSKA Moscow and Russian national teammate. "I know I have long hair, but his hair was killing me."

"I know he can play like that," Kirilenko said. "I've seen him play for the Russian team. I'm not surprised he can make those shots in the crunch moment. He has those nerves to take that shot in the crunch moment when everybody is a little shaky. He did a great job."



Crunch moment!
   156. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: November 06, 2012 at 01:48 PM (#4294575)
[155] I would recommend seeing whether any of those players have blogs/regular features with their newspapers/entities back home. Mozgov had an extremely in-depth blog that was one of the best parts of his presence on the Knicks roster. Aside from the humor in stuff getting lost in translation there was really insightful/interesting stuff about being a basketball player and the emotions/difficulties of being a rookie/foreigner.
   157. Booey Posted: November 06, 2012 at 01:49 PM (#4294578)
Not that we need any more forwards, but I miss AK already. Treat him well, Wolves.
   158. andrewberg Posted: November 06, 2012 at 03:39 PM (#4294761)
I don't know if I'd be that interested in what Mozgov has to say. He isn't even on the court in the crunch moment.

That's actually good advice. I'd love to read Shved's deep thoughts. Why did he choose now to cut his hair? Was it because it was impossible to tell him and Amundson apart when they were on the floor together? The world needs to know.
   159. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: November 06, 2012 at 03:47 PM (#4294777)
Ryen Russillo is no longer doing the ESPN NBA Today podcast. Does anyone have recommendations for other b-ball podcasts?
   160. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: November 06, 2012 at 04:08 PM (#4294826)
[147] I was going to leave that one alone. Along with his claims that T. Young and Holiday have improved since last year (1 week into the season) and the opinion that this year's team less Richardson and Bynum is better than last year's and the strange twisting of reality needed to say that Evan Turner and D. Wright generated good production last night.
5 things:
1, young definitely is better than last year. towards march/april/may, he was playing at ~210 lbs, and he was getting thrown around by almost everyone. now, with him bulking in the offseason, well, he'll still get thrown around a little bit, but at least he's able to give it back on the other end.

2, holiday may or may not actually be better than last year, but with the departures of lou williams and andre iguodala, he'll be on the ball a lot more, and he should have a lot more control over the game. more points, more assists, more production.

3, this year v. last year: there just wasn't enough offense last year. when they were starting lavoy allen and jodie meeks, the usage rates for their 5 starters were: 21, 18, 17, 15, 14. brand and iguodala just were not good enough at scoring to be the best players on the team, but that's what they were.

4, turner and wright: again, if they are your 3rd and 4th/5th/6th/7th/8th best players, and they're giving you 25 PPG, and 15-20 RPG while playing on the wing, yeah, i'm gonna say that's pretty good.

5, wright v. iguodala:

i'm sure that sounds like heresy, but wright's a better shooter, he's a better rebounder, he's a better shotblocker. defensively, iguodala's better, but wright's never played for a coach who stressed defense, so that gap could close quite a bit this year. he is every bit as athletic as iguodala, but he's also taller and longer. and then there's the FTs. wright is at 81% over the last 3 years, while iguodala is at 69. iguodala's a better playmaker, but i'm not sure that was really helping the development of jrue holiday and evan turner over the last few years, so the difference between him and wright there might be 1 step back, 2 steps forward.

if iguodala was still scoring 18 PPG, i'd give him the nod without a doubt, but with him at 12-13-14, it's much more of a pick'em than a first round KO.
   161. Jimmy P Posted: November 06, 2012 at 05:22 PM (#4294974)
wright v. iguodala

The most important thing: Wright's wearing a 76ers jersey.
   162. Famous Original Joe C Posted: November 06, 2012 at 05:30 PM (#4294990)
Ryen Russillo is no longer doing the ESPN NBA Today podcast. Does anyone have recommendations for other b-ball podcasts?


I'm a fan of the Basketball Jones - they do a daily (~30 min) podcast plus a longer (~hour) one on Fridays. Good mix of insight, media making fun of, stat friendliness, and humor. You can find it in iTunes. Their blog is fun as well.
   163. Famous Original Joe C Posted: November 06, 2012 at 05:42 PM (#4295018)
young definitely is better than last year.


"definitely", you guys.

more points, more assists, more production.


...while also using more possessions, so...?

if they are your 3rd and 4th/5th/6th/7th/8th best players, and they're giving you 25 PPG, and 15-20 RPG while playing on the wing


Except they aren't even going to give you 15 RPG over a full season, let alone 15-20. Maybe they'll get 12-13, if they both exceed their career highs?

i'm gonna say that's pretty good.


In a "45 wins, 6th or 7th seed" sort of way, yes.

wright v. iguodala:


If Wright can replicate his 2009-10 season offensively and make significant strides defensively, you could plausibly argue he's the in same ballpark as Iguodala. Also, you failed to mention that Iguodala is a much, much better passer.

   164. The Buddy Biancalana Hit Counter Posted: November 06, 2012 at 06:28 PM (#4295091)
Ryen Russillo is no longer doing the ESPN NBA Today podcast. Does anyone have recommendations for other b-ball podcasts?

I've enjoyed Zach Harper's new CBSSports.com podcast so far.
   165. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: November 06, 2012 at 08:07 PM (#4295197)
Iggy was an All-Star and generally considered by the cognoscenti as an underrated dude.
Now I like Wright, but he's moved like a bad penny and was given away for free this offseason despite a reasonable contract and what I understand to be a good locker room / community rep.

Um, I'll take Iguodala.
   166. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: November 06, 2012 at 08:18 PM (#4295210)
The most important thing: Wright's wearing a 76ers jersey.
i'd rather have iguodala than nick young. i'd rather have him than jason richardson. i'd much, much rather have him than evan turner.

i'm not saying that iguodala is ####, i'm saying that dorell wright is much better than people think he is.

...while also using more possessions, so...?
what? i'm not sure where you're going with this. do you think he should be scoring 25 PPG on 12 FGAs? if he's going to score more points, he's probably going to have to take more shots. and considering the kinds of shots he takes, and the percentages that he makes them, i find it hard to believe the offense will suffer because he's being more assertive.

If Wright can replicate his 2009-10 season offensively and make significant strides defensively
i just don't see that as being a high bar. if he takes and makes a lot of 3s, that essentially matches what he did that year. and then defensively, he's played the last 3 years on a team that didn't give a damn about defense, with teammates who didn't give a damn about defense. you could put lebron or ron artest or any other great wing defender onto that team, and they'd play like horseshit, too. there's only so much that one man can do when he's playing alonside monta ellis, steph curry, and david lee.
   167. Into the Void Posted: November 06, 2012 at 08:29 PM (#4295231)
i'm not saying that iguodala is ####, i'm saying that dorell wright is much better than people think he is.


except what you actually said above is

with the improvement of holiday and young, and with wright being better than iguodala


So before the deadline last year you would have traded Iggy for Wright straight up?

   168. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: November 06, 2012 at 10:44 PM (#4295567)
RT @kirkgoldsberry With 4% of the NBA season reporting, Wolf Blitzer has called the Atlantic Division for the New York Knicks.
   169. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: November 07, 2012 at 12:31 AM (#4295944)
RT @talkhoops: This is my favorite election tweet. RT @KingJames Ohio and Fla. My favorite states!
   170. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: November 07, 2012 at 12:32 AM (#4295951)
I know we try to keep this thread politics free and I think that's been a big part of the success, but just thought those were funny regardless of party affiliation.
   171. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: November 07, 2012 at 12:42 AM (#4295989)
They were
   172. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: November 07, 2012 at 11:41 AM (#4296777)
DEN-HOU tonight. It's like the League Pass/blogger Championship Game.
   173. Jimmy P Posted: November 07, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4296811)
i'm not saying that iguodala is ####, i'm saying that dorell wright is much better than people think he is.


Sure, but he's not better than Iggy. He's not near the same class.
   174. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: November 07, 2012 at 12:13 PM (#4296824)
Joakim Noah - best center currently playing* in the East.

---

The Indiana Pacers expect to be without Danny Granger for approximately the next three months after the star forward had an injection to treat patellar tendinosis in his left knee, the team announced Wednesday.

Paul George, the stage is yours.

---

*This is fun. Also, probably not right. But his current 16/8.8/2.8/2.5/2.0 line is pretty cool. FG% (48.8%) is down a little early, but FT% (84.6%) is up.
   175. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: November 07, 2012 at 12:25 PM (#4296843)
173 - exactly
   176. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: November 07, 2012 at 04:23 PM (#4297171)
Jack McCallum with Karl Malone (shamelessly stolen from another BTF thread and 5 months old and maybe already linked here...)
   177. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: November 07, 2012 at 05:22 PM (#4297282)
except what you actually said above is

So before the deadline last year you would have traded Iggy for Wright straight up?
two things:

1, i am kind of a parody of myself in this thread, and while i don't generally go out of my way to say things i don't believe, i do tend to color what i say with a certain homer-ish tint. so...

2, no, i probably would not have traded iguodala for wright. not at last year's trading deadline, and not now, either. the gap in perceived value is too vast for that to be a smart decision, whether it's sound tactically, or not.

iguodala only scored 12 PPG last season, on 45/39/61 shooting with a usage% under 18.

his defense is really, really good, but his offensive production just isn't high enough for him to continue to be viewed as the foundational piece that he seems to be viewed as. if you go back to the year before eddie jordan (which is 5 years ago now, so it's not exactly current events), iguodala put up 19, 5, and 5 on 47/30/72 shooting with a usage% of 22. if he was doing that, then yeah, he'd be head and shoulders above wright, but at 14, 5 and 5, and with him shooting 44% from the field, i don't find it to be unthinkable that wright has the better season.

maybe it's not quite 50/50 whether wright plays better than iguoadla this year, but if we judge them by various categories:

PER, TS%, O-rating, D-rating, TRB%, AST%, BLK%, STL%, MPG, and PPG.

i'd say TS%, TRB%, and BLK% are in the bag for wright.
i'd say that AST% and MPG are in the bag for iguodala.
but the rest, PER, O-rating, D-rating, STL%, and PPG could go either way.

i'm sure this sounds like heresy, but iguodala in the here and now seems to be an example of someone who is so underrated that he's overrated.
   178. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: November 07, 2012 at 05:56 PM (#4297340)
maybe it's not quite 50/50 whether wright plays better than iguoadla this year, but if we judge them by various categories:

PER, TS%, O-rating, D-rating, TRB%, AST%, BLK%, STL%, MPG, and PPG.

i'd say TS%, TRB%, and BLK% are in the bag for wright.
i'd say that AST% and MPG are in the bag for iguodala.
but the rest, PER, O-rating, D-rating, STL%, and PPG could go either way.

i'm sure this sounds like heresy, but iguodala in the here and now seems to be an example of someone who is so underrated that he's overrated.


Is Wright a good defender? He has the tools, but it's unclear at the moment so being generous let's say he's an averagish/solid defender. Is Igoudala a good defender? Yes, in fact, based on just about every objective/subjective measure we have he is one of the handful of best perimeter defenders in the NBA. There is no twisting of reality that allows Wright to make that difference up on the offensive end. Sorry.
   179. Into the Void Posted: November 07, 2012 at 06:40 PM (#4297379)
Is Wright a good defender? He has the tools, but it's unclear at the moment so being generous let's say he's an averagish/solid defender.


Exactly, that's what bothered me about Steagles post indicating that Wright was an underrated defensive player because he played for the Warriors and it was "all left up to him" since no one else could play defense- a statement made by someone who clearly watched zero Warriors games last year. Wright is an average/at best slightly above average defender when he actually decides to focus on it. Which comes and goes depending on his mood.
   180. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: November 07, 2012 at 06:57 PM (#4297393)
Is Wright a good defender? He has the tools, but it's unclear at the moment so being generous let's say he's an averagish/solid defender. Is Igoudala a good defender? Yes, in fact, based on just about every objective/subjective measure we have he is one of the handful of best perimeter defenders in the NBA. There is no twisting of reality that allows Wright to make that difference up on the offensive end. Sorry.
context is important there. if you put andre iguodala on a golden state team that started monta ellis, steph curry, and david lee, he wouldn't look like a very good defender, either. in fact, he's basically in that situation in denver, since he's starting alongside ty lawson, danilo gallinari, kenneth faried, and javale mcgee.

iguodala is a very good defender, but he's a very good island defender. he's not the kind of defensive star who makes his entire team better, in the way that dwight howard or tyson chandler makes their team better. he's capable of shutting down lebron or carmelo or paul pierce, but even when he does that, there's 4 other guys trying to score, and he doesn't effect those players at all.


one more thing, and i think this should end the argument, here is the text from the sponsor of iguodala's bask-ref page:

"The Wages of Wins welcomes one of the most talented and underrated players to the Denver Nuggets!"


i rest my case.
   181. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: November 07, 2012 at 09:03 PM (#4297490)
[180] I should probably stop, but I can't help myself...why are you comparing Igoudala's defensive ability/impact to Chandler and Dwight Howard and not other perimeter defenders and/or...you know...Wright?
   182. RollingWave Posted: November 07, 2012 at 09:37 PM (#4297514)
Houston seem to decided that their season strategy is to take the first inning off or something, though amazingly Omar Asik actually scored 4 points.


   183. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: November 07, 2012 at 11:10 PM (#4297579)
Apparently Tom Thibodeau was a little miffed with Joakim Noah last night after Jo took a three-pointer trying to push Chicago over 100 points and win the fans free Big Macs.

I don't know why Thibs was so upset. Joakim shot 50 percent from beyond the arc in college.
   184. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: November 07, 2012 at 11:46 PM (#4297597)
Scattered Thoughts on Tonight's Main Event:

DEN pulls out a win in HOU in a weird/messy game where the refs allowed a lot of contact (on both sides). These are my two favorite teams in the league and while the 4th quarter Lin/Gallinari matchup made me feel an intensity of emotions I haven't experienced since 13-year-old me witnessed the Selma Blair-Sarah Michelle Gellar kiss in Cruel Intentions...the game was tough to watch. DEN got on a run in the 1st half where they played exactly the way you want them to, continually driving and kicking in their halfcourt fast break offense, but had a lot of bad possessions. I think Ty Lawson has star level ability but he really needs to asset himself more offensively.

HOU just didn't seem like they showed up. By the way, one of Lin's biggest strengths last year, finishing with contact, has turned into a weakness. It will be interesting to see how much of that loss in ability is a fluke and how much of it is real/injury related. He's getting deep into the paint but then throwing up slop that rolls off the front of the rim. If a couple whistles had gone differently it would change things, but the no calls were fine.

Manimal had two awesome dunks down the stretch of the game. That guy is a lot of fun to watch though I imagine he is the exact kind of person I'd hate to play against in a pickup game.

Gallinari missed several good looks and his FG% continues to suck. However, he also knocked down multiple mid range Js, which might be a first for the 5 years I've watched him play. My favorite Gallo moment was when Harden tried to ISO against him towards the end of the first half and failed. I assume that at some points guys will realize that Gallo is a pretty solid man defender, especially against speed, because of his length and stop trying to attack him that way. If you want to attack him, force him through some screens where he will likely flop and lose his man or back him down because he is weak.
   185. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: November 07, 2012 at 11:47 PM (#4297598)
new orleans was playing without anthony davis and eric gordon and austin rivers, so this isn't exactly a signature win, but

1, jrue holiday: 14 points, 12 assists, 5 rebounds. i'll leave his turnover count unmentioned.

2, evan turner and dorell wright combined for: 21 points, 14 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 steals and a block.

3, however, turner, wright, and nick young combined to shoot just 10/32. i'm not quite jumping off the bridge just yet, but those three have been horrendous from the field so far, combining for something like 40/128.

4, your nightly dispencer hawesome update: 11 points, 6 rebounds, 3 blocks in 23 minutes.

5, i'm not loving doug collins' minutes distribution so far this season. if players aren't making shots, that's one thing, but i would really like to see the rookies (maalik wayns and arnett moultrie) get more run early in the season. i think they have the potential to change the momentum in any given game, and if they can get into a rhythm early in the season, i can only think that'll benefit the team later.
   186. tshipman Posted: November 08, 2012 at 01:51 AM (#4297661)
I am currently thinking that the Lakers need to try to trade Pau as well as fire Mike Brown.
   187. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: November 08, 2012 at 01:53 AM (#4297664)
So who had the Knicks as the last unbeaten team?
   188. Booey Posted: November 08, 2012 at 11:53 AM (#4297923)
I am currently thinking that the Lakers need to try to trade Pau as well as fire Mike Brown.


Yeah, he was pretty useless last night.

Not that I'm complaining... ;-)
   189. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: November 08, 2012 at 12:03 PM (#4297944)
Apparently Tom Thibodeau was a little miffed with Joakim Noah last night after Jo took a three-pointer trying to push Chicago over 100 points and win the fans free Big Macs.

With the amount of times this stupid promotion has been a controversy over the years, I cannot believe the Bulls are still doing it.
   190. andrewberg Posted: November 08, 2012 at 01:36 PM (#4298040)
I am currently thinking that the Lakers need to try to trade Pau as well as fire Mike Brown.


I hate overreacting and I hate selling low.

But what's going on there? He looks like he's not even part of the team now. I can see how a more athletic 4 or a stretch 4 would be a better fit with Howard in the middle and Nash probing (when he comes back and *if* they let him). I just figured Pau would adjust much better to the high/low game, the elbow jumpers, and the occasional post up.
   191. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: November 08, 2012 at 01:49 PM (#4298046)
As of two games ago, Gasol was a 16.3/12.0/3.7, hitting 48% of his shots. Now, I haven't been watching - but it might be premature to panic.
   192. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:29 PM (#4298366)
Did you not get the memo? Okur is retiring.
   193. Booey Posted: November 08, 2012 at 06:39 PM (#4298446)
Okur is retiring.


Best of luck, Memo. He was one of my faves on the post Stockton to Malone Jazz. Seemed to hit a lot of big shots.
   194. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: November 08, 2012 at 11:15 PM (#4298596)
Boozer is having one of the worst defensive games I can remember seeing.

Perkins and Thabeet have combined for 30 minutes and taken 0 shots from either the field or the foul line.
   195. Spivey Posted: November 08, 2012 at 11:53 PM (#4298625)
I just came here to post that Carlos Boozer really seemed like the reason the Bulls lost that game. I actually was a pretty big fan of his when he was in Utah, but that dude is so unathletic now it's incredible. Not only did he play garbage defense, but he looked terrible on offense too. 5 turnovers, a total non-factor offensively - he was afraid to go at Ibaka, and rightly so. The Bulls are not a very fun team to watch, as Moses has noted.
   196. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: November 09, 2012 at 01:08 PM (#4298877)
Boozer's athleticism seems to come and go, like his effort, but it definitely isn't what it used to be. He looked downright spry against Orlando the other day for instance. He should be a more reliable offensive option, but he just isn't. He's been best on the Bulls in the pick and roll type offensive sets, and seems to prefer jump shots over everything else.

Last night though, ugh. The defense kept them close, which is going to be the story all year. But still, yuck.
   197. Bitter Mouse Posted: November 09, 2012 at 01:13 PM (#4298880)
Crap - wrong thread.

Hey how about them T-Wolves!
   198. Spivey Posted: November 09, 2012 at 01:15 PM (#4298884)
Last night though, ugh. The defense kept them close, which is going to be the story all year. But still, yuck.

Deng and Noah both seemed pretty healthy and effective, though, which has to be good news.

What are the odds that Boozer gets benched for Gibson?
   199. andrewberg Posted: November 09, 2012 at 01:31 PM (#4298907)
Boozer is extremely muscular. Would it make sense for him to shed some muscle to add agility and speed? It is not like he runs guys over on offense- he still uses a lot of leaners and finesse moves to get his shot off despite his strength. It might hurt him somewhat on the glass if he trimmed down. I would think that being able to slide over on defense would be far more important in that scheme than a marginal rebound here or there, especially with Deng, Noah, and Gibson pretty good in that department.

----

Throwaway comment or no, I will take the Wolves bait. The offense has understandably struggled with Love out of the lineup. Ridnour has been an average-ish PG for most of his time in the league, but he is looking older and not very useful. The gap between him and Barea offensively is enormous. Barea has a foot problem now. It will be interesting to see whether Adelman slides Shved over to play more backup PG, or if Conroy or Lee get some of those minutes. My bet would be Conroy, one of seven PAC 12 alumni on the roster.

Another PAC guy, Roy, has been atrocious. His strong court vision has allowed him to make some plays, but he is having so much trouble creating off the dribble (and turning it over as a result) that he has been nearly worthless. He cannot play defense at all, his shooting is below average, and he cannot get himself into the situations where he got layups at FTs in the past. On the other hand, Shved has been very strong as a backup. His defense needs work, and he is more of a backup at the moment, but Adelman has used him to finish games and he has made shockingly few boneheaded offensive plays for rookie playmaker.

Kirilenko, Budinger, and Cunningham have been a revelation as smart, high percentage players. They do not make spectacular plays, but the upgrade to defenders who stay with their man and have solid athleticism to challenge shots and force more long twos is an absolute 180 for the Wolves. I cannot stress how big of a difference the defense has been. Through 4 games, the team is in the top 10 in defensive efficiency (even with Ridnour playing for Rubio) and the whole difference is not completely forgetting about guys. None are offensive first options, of course. Still, they all do certain things well, Kirilenko can get to the rim and sees teammates well when he uses that up fake to get by his defender. Budinger is a long range threat who does not take bad shots. Cunningham can make an 18 footer and rebound. It helps because defenses usually leave him alone to keep Pek/Stiemsma from camping out alone under the hoop. Williams still looks kind of lost. He has shown some improvement. I am not overly optimistic about him at this point because Adelman does not trust him.

Pek has been in some foul trouble. Otherwise, he has probably been the top offensive option. I love his post game and I like that they force him the ball when the defense isn't doubling him. Stiemsma is also the first guy they have had in years who can alter shots at the rim. He is a backup center and is not going to change the way the whole team plays, but I like that he brings something unique when he is in the game.

The next couple of weeks will be interesting because there is no offensive identity without Love or Rubio. They are going to need shooting from Ridnour, Budinger, and Shved. They are going to need some crafty playmaking from Kirilenko and Roy. Most of all, they are going to need Pek to continue scoring efficiently in the post, because there are not a lot of easy ways for this group to get a lot of points. Love is one of the most efficient point creators in the league, so it is not a shock that the skill would be lacking. The improved defense helps a ton, but a prolonged offensive slump could lead to some ugly losses.
   200. andrewberg Posted: November 09, 2012 at 01:32 PM (#4298908)
I think Gibson is a better player than Boozer in a vacuum right now. On the other hand, with Rose out of the lineup, buckets are at a premium, and his big advantage is in creating offense. I think he keeps getting more minute as long as he is healthy and Rose is not.
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