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Wednesday, October 31, 2012

OT: NBA thread—November2012

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what the site is really about: um…baseball?

link is to the previous month’s thread. 


oh, and since i can make everyone see this every time they click on this thread, let us discuss the…unique hairstylings of the sixers projected frontcourt:

steagles Posted: October 31, 2012 at 11:05 PM | 894 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nba


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   201. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: November 09, 2012 at 01:41 PM (#4298914)
Hey how about them T-Wolves!
Brandon Roy's numbers give me a sad.
   202. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:01 PM (#4298941)
Brown fired, according to the Twitter.
   203. Bitter Mouse Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:06 PM (#4298948)
andrewberg - Thanks!

I have managed to miss most of the wolves games so far, so I really appreciate the info. I suspect that much of the credit should go to Rick A who is a very good coach. I hoped he could hold things together until Love and Rubio get back and it looks like he might be able to do it.
   204. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:07 PM (#4298949)
My bet would be Conroy, one of seven PAC 12 alumni on the roster.

Mine too.

I suspect that much of the credit should go to Rick A who is a very good coach.

Yeah he is. The huge wing upgrade helps too.
   205. Fourth True Outcome Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:10 PM (#4298954)
According to USA Today, Mike Brown has been fired. That's an awfully fast trigger, as bad as their start has been...

Edit: Coke to Gold Star. I didn't notice the page had turned, so I clearly need more coffee this morning.
   206. Jimmy P Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:11 PM (#4298956)
According to USA Today, Mike Brown has been fired. That's an awfully fast trigger, as bad as their start has been...


I'm not a huge fan of Brown, and I thought the Princeton offense was a terrible idea, but wow that's fast. Why the hell did they even keep him on through all of training camp?
   207. Fourth True Outcome Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:12 PM (#4298958)
From the lack of rumors about his successor, I think it's pretty clearly time for player-coach Kobe.
   208. jmurph Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:12 PM (#4298959)
What idiots. If his position was so tenuous that 1-4 gets him fired, they should have done this months ago so that they could have had their pick of quality coaching candidates.*

*This argument not valid if they bring Phil back.
   209. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:13 PM (#4298960)
Steve Nash has played 1.25 games, btw.
   210. GregD Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:14 PM (#4298961)
Yes it's got to be Phil, right? He didn't want until the Super-Team was assembled, then they decided to wait for a mis-step to name him.
   211. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:15 PM (#4298963)
How about D'Antoni?
   212. Jimmy P Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:21 PM (#4298974)
ESPN is speculating Bernie Bickerstaff or Chuck Person as interim
   213. GregD Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:22 PM (#4298976)
How about D'Antoni?
The one ironclad rule of the universe is that Dolan will look like a fool, and since your plan makes that happen more quickly and effectively than any other, it must be right.
   214. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:22 PM (#4298977)
Deng and Noah both seemed pretty healthy and effective, though, which has to be good news.

What are the odds that Boozer gets benched for Gibson?


Deng actually sprained/jammed his left wrist at the end of the game last night. This is the wrist with the torn ligaments that hasn't been operated on yet. So, we'll see. That, plus both of their histories and the number of minutes they're already playing so far (both a smidge under 40), means it's going to be a concern all year.

I don't think Boozer gets bench. berg makes a good point about offense, but Thibs is also very, very stubborn. Keith Bogans started all 82 games 2 years ago when he was clearly the worst option. However, his minutes shrunk and shrunk and that's likely to continue with Boozer. Gibson already closes games.
   215. andrewberg Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:23 PM (#4298979)
I have managed to miss most of the wolves games so far, so I really appreciate the info. I suspect that much of the credit should go to Rick A who is a very good coach. I hoped he could hold things together until Love and Rubio get back and it looks like he might be able to do it.


I have been piecing this thought together from Twitter and what Jim Peterson says during games (btw- one of the most truly insightful color guys in the business if you ignore the rah-rah stuff). Adelman has never been known as a defensive coach. He has a few core principles, like channeling dribblers baseline and away from the middle plus aggressively cheating off the weak side to help on the ball, but that is about it. It sounds like he has laid out the broad strokes and is leaving the day to day defensive game planning, matchups, and management to Terry Porter, who is probably the top assistant on his staff. Obviously, he coached Porter (a MN kid) in Portland back in the day and Porter went on to become a head coach who specialized in defense, but struggled with player management and offense. Seems like they could make a good pair if Porter is comfortable in the 1B role.

I have to say, I am shocked that Brown was actually fired. I do not think D'Antoni is a good fit because the team already has gaping defensive holes and the "let Dwight figure it out" strategy is not going to be enough to win a title. If not Phil, then I think McMillan or Sloan make the most sense. Either way, what a weird time to try to hit reset.
   216. andrewberg Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:24 PM (#4298981)
I hate to say atoadaso. But, atoadaso.

65. andrewberg Posted: November 03, 2012 at 12:58 AM (#4291457)
So, Phil, we've written a check. There's no number on it, but we trust that you're a reasonable guy. Plus, you like Nash, right? Anyway, your giant chair will be ready for the next home game.
   217. Famous Original Joe C Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:25 PM (#4298984)
Speaking of Jim Petersen, you haven't read it yet, the Grantland oral history of the 1986 Rockets is pretty great
   218. JuanGone..except1game Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4298990)
I'm not a huge fan of Brown, and I thought the Princeton offense was a terrible idea, but wow that's fast. Why the hell did they even keep him on through all of training camp?


Wow, that was quick. I think that its a bit premature, but that is crazy. The worst thing is that the coach that I'd want to replace him is SVG, and that ain't happenning. Buss needs to make the call he could have made a year ago and hire Shaw. That move makes the most sense to me, other than PJ, but I have my concerns about his personal investment.

How about D'Antoni?


Oh God no, but the Lakers might be the one team that he could coach to the finish line. Howard and Gasol are enough of back stop against his ignorance of the defensive side of the ball, that the Lakers could succeed. A PHX offense with Howard probably leads the league in offense and is at least a mid-tier defensive teeam.

   219. JC in DC Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:30 PM (#4298996)
Ok, I've been a Kobe apologist here, but this means Kobe had to approve the move, right? And possible Howard as well? What an extraordinarily desperate move, especially if it's made to pop Bickerstaff (?!?) or Person in.
   220. DA Baracus Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:39 PM (#4299004)
Dwight Howard, coach killer.
   221. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:46 PM (#4299015)
I thought Kobe was behind Brown, and wanted the Princeton offense.
   222. JC in DC Posted: November 09, 2012 at 02:49 PM (#4299017)
I'm not saying he forced him out. I'm saying he had to approve this, right? You call Kobe on this, don't you?
   223. rr Posted: November 09, 2012 at 03:08 PM (#4299039)
You call Kobe on this, don't you?


Buss didn't when they hired Brown, so I would guess no, but who knows. I am guessing D'Antoni gets the gig if he wants it. Kobe likes him, Nash loves him, Phil hates him. Win/win/win for Jim Buss.
   224. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: November 09, 2012 at 03:28 PM (#4299059)
No way PhilJax comes back.
   225. cmd600 Posted: November 09, 2012 at 03:36 PM (#4299067)
I would like to see Mike Brown latch onto a young team without any other big heads to deal with, and see what he can do. I know coaches in the NBA are always the first one blamed, but he's had some exceptional no-win circumstances handed to him. Even when the Heat lost to the Mavericks, I didn't hear anyone say "Oh, maybe it isn't as easy as just having Lebron".

I would bet a decent amount of money that Brown could get the Kings to play passable defense and turn them into a respectable team pretty quickly.
   226. Jimmy P Posted: November 09, 2012 at 03:38 PM (#4299070)
but he's had some exceptional no-win circumstances handed to him

Yeah, must suck. He had Lebron, and now he's had Howard, Kobe, and Pau.

Most NBA coaches will never get the chance to coach a star of those talents. And he's done it twice.
   227. rr Posted: November 09, 2012 at 03:45 PM (#4299075)
What idiots.


We'll see. What I think you are missing is that while Brown was on a short leash, it took the team looking EXCEPTIONALLY bad to get him canned. The Lakers have been waxed four times, and their only win is against Detroit. Also, his decisions to use Ebanks and MWP at the 2, Jamison at the 3, and give Meeks DNP-CDs have been roundly mocked, and given that Buss OKd a two-year mini-mid-level to Meeks to backup Kobe, I think that probably was a big reason for this.

Not all of it is Brown's fault, of course--there are personnel issues and health issues. But the team has looked bad enough in multiple ways that I do not see this as a crazy move. Between Kobe, Pau and Nash's respective ages, and Howard's contract status, Brown was not on Spoelstra's timeline. Doing it this fast gives them a chance to try to push the reset button.

If I were Kupchak, I would try to add Sundiata Gaines and get rid of Duhon or Morris, if the FO will pick up the tab.
   228. cmd600 Posted: November 09, 2012 at 03:52 PM (#4299082)
226 - He had the latter group for all of five games, and even the guys who have been able to stay on the court have had to deal with injuries. Remember when the Heat started off 9-8? It's not as easy as it seems to get everyone playing together, and the Heat were healthy. And did you see the collection of talent Cleveland put around Lebron? Getting 60 wins (twice) out of that group is close to miracle-working.
   229. jmurph Posted: November 09, 2012 at 04:00 PM (#4299089)
I don't think I disagree with you, RR. I'm just saying if they weren't all in (meaning, willing to put up with a slow start to see how things play out), they should have replaced him in the summer. It's not like we didn't know he wasn't an offensive mastermind.
   230. cmd600 Posted: November 09, 2012 at 04:11 PM (#4299104)
To add to 228 (can't get the edit button to work)

By no-win, I mean the standards were outrageously high (nothing short of a championship) and any setback, even the equivalent of a hangnail, causes the town to rip into you mercilessly. Even if you win a ring, you only get a quick exhale before the wolves are at you again.
   231. rr Posted: November 09, 2012 at 04:14 PM (#4299108)
jmurph,

Fair point. I would add this: Basically, no one has ever really respected Brown's acumen that I can see. Brian Windhorst, for example, liked him personally, but wrote a lot of stuff about his shortcomings as a leader of men and as a strategist in Cleveland. There were "bad vibes" around Brown last year, but the Lakers got the best results that could be expected with their roster. They were a little lucky--Kobe, Pau, and Bynum stayed healthy, and their PYTH was 36-30--but the NBA is a results business and they went 41-25 and won a playoff series. Hard to can the guy.

This year, the results have been dreadful, and people can also again, like last year, point to specific things that Brown is doing that seem dumb. Also, Brown has been very outspoken about his chops as a D coach
--and the Lakers' D has been very bad (much worse than the O, actually). And finally, with the core old and the picks gone, the future of the org depends on keeping Howard. I can see deciding that Brown was not the guy to facilitate that occurring in his role as coach.
   232. Jimmy P Posted: November 09, 2012 at 04:27 PM (#4299119)
By no-win, I mean the standards were outrageously high (nothing short of a championship) and any setback, even the equivalent of a hangnail, causes the town to rip into you mercilessly. Even if you win a ring, you only get a quick exhale before the wolves are at you again.

This is true.

I never said he was a bad coach. Nor did I say he really deserved it. But, he's been put in some really prime situations.

I did think he was in over his head. He's not a top 5 coach, he's probably not top 10. I'm just not sure a team that is going for it, yet has weaknesses and limitations, can afford to have him. I also thought the Princeton offense thing was grasping at straws.
   233. steagles Posted: November 09, 2012 at 04:55 PM (#4299148)
re: mike brown,

there's no reason to compound the mistake of hiring him by keeping him past the point where you've lost confidence in him. and that's especially true considering the age of kobe and nash and ka-pau. those guys just don't have enough left in their legs that you can punt a season hoping that they gel sometime in the intermediate future.

the standard here should not be the 2011 heat who went 9-8, but the 2008 celtics, who started the season 29-3. 1-4 just isn't even close to acceptable.
   234. cmd600 Posted: November 09, 2012 at 04:55 PM (#4299149)
232 - Well, are we talking about the expectations thrown upon him, or how good of a coach he is?

If we're talking about prime situations, I'd argue that going to Cleveland, where the plan was "here's Lebron, you do the rest" until they started trading for washed-up guys, isn't that prime of a situation. Sure, its better than being Randy Wittman, but I don't see "be the fall guy for every loss, even if Lebron tunes out" is some great role.

As far as the Lakers, as RR said, he did about as well as should have been asked with that roster last year. With Howard's back and Nash's leg, things weren't going to immediately become a-okay.
   235. andrewberg Posted: November 09, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4299157)
I think Brown is a very good defensive tactician. He also seems to be reasonably good at relating to players and keeping them motivated, which is a skill that is hard to pin down yet seemingly crucial. His shortcomings regarding offensive creativity are probably overrated because they were on display in many marquee moments (Cavs vs. Celtics, Cavs vs. Magic, Lakers vs. OKC). I would say the problems adapting on the fly were probably more meaningful, but still something that wouldn't ultimately doom an otherwise capable coach.

At the risk of verging into the unknowable, I would suggest that his biggest shortcoming was that he came off as more of a dweeb than a leader of men. While there are obviously coaches who overcame that image, I am sure that there is a tipping point where perception becomes reality and players start to believe the media image.

I have to wonder if he will latch on as the "defensive coordinator" at the side of a more established head coach. Might San Antonio make room for him on their bench and give him a chance to rehabilitate his image while working on a successful team? I recall that he worked briefly in the media after leaving the Cavs, but suffice to say that I was more impressed with his work on the 12-13 Lakers.
   236. andrewberg Posted: November 09, 2012 at 05:19 PM (#4299178)
If we're talking about prime situations, I'd argue that going to Cleveland, where the plan was "here's Lebron, you do the rest" until they started trading for washed-up guys, isn't that prime of a situation. Sure, its better than being Randy Wittman, but I don't see "be the fall guy for every loss, even if Lebron tunes out" is some great role.


How do you really measure that- expectancy of job length? Whether you take over a floundering lottery team or a contender, it seems like you get a one year grace period, then a second year to show some progress, and if you show some progress, you get a third year to make get to another level. Is that a pretty typical trajectory? I guess the exception is guys who totally lose the players, like Kuester or possibly Brown here. I think failing to take a decent team to the Finals does less damage to a coach's rep than stagnating in the lottery, but you might get a third year if the roster was altogether hopeless in the first place. Ultimately, I think I would rather have a decent team if I was a good coach and a bad team if I was a bad coach.
   237. rr Posted: November 09, 2012 at 05:25 PM (#4299185)
He also seems to be reasonably good at relating to players and keeping them motivated, which is a skill that is hard to pin down yet seemingly crucial.


Perhaps, but there were rumors both last year and this about grumbling/behind-the-back contempt for him. I am sure more will be coming out in the next few days. The Lakers are 25th in DRTG at the moment. They are 7th in O. Brown has made a point of saying he is the D guy and that D is his calling card. They were 13th last year.

It does appear that I was wrong about the bench, with the caveat that Brown was misusing several guys. It seems that Kupchak concentrated too much on adding shooting and experience and not enough on adding guys who can D up a little. With Howard not back to what he was in terms of explosiveness, things have cratered. Some of that is on Brown; some isn't. One way to look at it is this: would you be excited if your team hired Mike Brown as head coach?

Ebanks was arrested last night on a DUI; they may use that as a way to replace him. We will see.

   238. andrewberg Posted: November 09, 2012 at 05:39 PM (#4299202)
Could the Lakers build a better bench out of guys who are currently free agents?
The FA tracker I used to look guys up did not seem very accurate, so I apologize if these guys signed.
PG- Gaines or Farmar vs. Duhon (or Blake really)
SG- Anthony Parker vs. Meeks
SF- Chris Wright vs. Ebanks
PF- Derrick Brown vs. Jamison
C- Fesenko vs. Hill

   239. rr Posted: November 09, 2012 at 05:45 PM (#4299206)
I wanted Fesenko last year, actually, but I don't know that he is better than Hill. I would take Meeks over Parker. Again, I think Jamison could work as a floor spacer with Nash and Howard. Don't know enough about Wright. Gaines I already discussed.

I will be interested to see if Bickerstaff uses a different rotation in tonight's game.
   240. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: November 09, 2012 at 05:51 PM (#4299209)
What idiots. If his position was so tenuous that 1-4 gets him fired, they should have done this months ago so that they could have had their pick of quality coaching candidates.*

Yup.

Gaines just signed in China (like a day or two ago). Think Brown did too. Farmer signed in Isreal (gave up a decent NBA contract to do so). Parker retired.


   241. cmd600 Posted: November 09, 2012 at 06:02 PM (#4299217)
The Lakers are 25th in DRTG at the moment. They are 7th in O. Brown has made a point of saying he is the D guy and that D is his calling card. They were 13th last year.


I'm trying to figure out exactly where the defense is letting them down, and while the numbers aren't good, they aren't that bad either. Teams are shooting FTs very well against them, but that's only an extra point or two a night. Their turnover margin is one of the worst in the game, are they giving up a lot of easy points off turnovers?

Whatever the case is, it took over a year for Brown's defense to finally click in Cleveland, so I'm not sure expecting instant results, or overvaluing the small sample so far this year is appropriate. Though, maybe the expectation is instant results regardless of how fair that may or may not be.
   242. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: November 09, 2012 at 06:28 PM (#4299232)
Isiah's available.
   243. smileyy Posted: November 09, 2012 at 06:56 PM (#4299243)
So is, I'm sure, Isaiah
   244. Manny Coon Posted: November 09, 2012 at 07:00 PM (#4299244)
Why hasn't Meeks been playing for the Lakers? He's only played 22 minutes so far including a few DNP, I can't find anything about him being hurt. As bad as their bench has been, I don't see how they can afford to not play him even if he's in a bit of slump.
   245. rr Posted: November 09, 2012 at 07:33 PM (#4299280)
What idiots. If his position was so tenuous that 1-4 gets him fired, they should have done this months ago so that they could have had their pick of quality coaching candidates.*


Yup.


Well, the names out there are Jackson, Sloan, McMillan, Shaw (who supposedly laughed it off today when asked), and D'Antoni. And maybe SVG would like to reconnect with Dwight (kidding). I don't see that there were better options over the summer. Also, let's face it
--while there was some variation in how good people thought the Lakers would be, no one expected this. FWIW, Brian Kamenetzky, usually very level-headed and a Brown defender, mostly agreed with it, as does the guy who runs the Laker TH affilliate site, and he is usually opposed to quick moves. It is easy to say "it's just five games" but the team looked dead, awful, and disorganized. Awful bench or no, some of that is on the coach.

As to the D: the Lakers are historically weak at forcing TOs. Part of that is being old and slow; part of it is Brown's philosophy. They lose the TO category badly every game and almost never score in transition. It is a big issue. They also have a hard time closing on 3s. Brown's decision to play Jamison at the 3 and MWP at the 2 made the issues worse. Also, Howard is at about 70% or so and is not the awesome all-over-the-place anchor they need.

As to Meeks, no one has an explanation, and I suspect it contributed to Brown's dismissal. If Bickerstaff plays Meeks tonight, we will know for sure.
   246. Booey Posted: November 09, 2012 at 08:07 PM (#4299298)
Well, the names out there are Jackson, Sloan, McMillan, Shaw (who supposedly laughed it off today when asked), and D'Antoni.


Please no. I don't want to have to cheer for another Lakers superfriends team. I felt dirty enough doing it in 2004 when they had Malone.
   247. Into the Void Posted: November 09, 2012 at 08:13 PM (#4299301)
Well, the names out there are Jackson, Sloan, McMillan, Shaw (who supposedly laughed it off today when asked), and D'Antoni.


Wojnarowski tweeted earlier today that D'Antoni just had knee surgery, and won't be available until late December.
   248. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: November 09, 2012 at 08:17 PM (#4299305)
Lazy reading on my part, rr. I didn't mean to agree to the timing of pick of quality coaches part, just the should have done it sooner aspect.
Anyway, sloan in LA would be hilarious.

Hey Bickerstaff, this is just like your old team, huh?
   249. Tripon Posted: November 09, 2012 at 08:23 PM (#4299311)
Mike Brown got fired because the Lakers needed a fall guy, and he was probably not the right coach for this team. The issue really was that he never should have been hired in the first place. Jim Buss is still there and making decisions, and until he either A) Becomes a lot wiser in his decisions, or B) removes him from the decision making process, and let his GM do his job, we're just going to see the same issues come up.
   250. rr Posted: November 09, 2012 at 08:47 PM (#4299327)
I didn't mean to agree to the timing of pick of quality coaches part, just the should have done it sooner aspect.


Like I have said, on something like this, I would go more with guys around the team, like the KBros, then with random guys on the net or with pundits. The Lakers had a pretty good year last year; even if people didn't like Brown, it would have been tough to fire him with three years left on his deal after a 3 seed and playoff series win. Here is a link to the ESPN 5/5 on the subject:

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/5-on-5-121109-brownfiring/nba-next-los-angeles-lakers-mike-brown-firing

And here are the answers to the question "Was it a good move?" Respondents are Abbott, the KBros, the Lakers TH guy, and Windhorst:

Henry Abbott, ESPN.com: Bad move unless Phil Jackson is about to walk around the corner. Dwight Howard is out of shape. Steve Nash is busted up. The bench has played terribly. Time would presumably solve at least two of those three problems. And now there's a new kind of chaos to cope with.

Andy Kamenetzky, ESPN LA: Good move. Beyond the fact I didn't think he was the right coach to begin with, this was clearly the direction matters were heading. If that's the inevitable final outcome, better early than late, so there's as much time as possible to pick up the pieces, get on the same page and move forward.

Brian Kamenetzky, ESPN LA: Good move. The Lakers clearly believed there would be a good chance of ending up right back in this spot six weeks from now, questioning whether Brown was the right guy. That being the case, act now and preserve as much of the season for the new guy as possible. Brown was still struggling to build credibility in the city and with his team. Maybe he'd be Erik Spoelstra, who wasn't good enough to win until he did. But maybe not, and the Lakers have too much invested to find out.

Darius Soriano, Forum Blue and Gold: Good move. Obviously there are concerns with making a move this quickly. But the Lakers are underperforming under Brown and in looking at his utilization of this roster, early trends could have well turned into lasting ones.

Brian Windhorst, ESPN.com: If the Lakers really felt he was not the person for this job and they have a legitimate replacement plan in place, then doing it now was a good move. It is incredibly unfair to Brown but I can understand the team's thinking. Especially if he'd lost Kobe, which certainly seems to be the case.


Now, you can argue that guys closer to the team (Soriano has team sources but is not an access guy) are biased or need to maintain access, but with those three guys, plus Windhorst, who dealt with Brown daily, on the "good move" side, I would lean that way.

The Lakers do have roster issues that a new coach won't solve; Beckley Mason, snotty about the Lakers as always, Tweeted today that Brown's firing will make everyone see that the roster "makes little sense." I think that is the wrong way to put it, but I see what he is getting at. And, as Abbott suggests, Nash needs to be Nash and Howard needs to be Howard for this team to be good, no matter who the coach is. But between the #25 DRTG, the weird rotations, the overload on the core, and the dead and uncomfortable atmosphere around the team, the grumbling, and the abysmal on-court results, I think the move was warranted. I wanted Shaw or Adelman to begin with, and I said so here the day Brown was hired.
   251. Spivey Posted: November 09, 2012 at 09:03 PM (#4299341)
I think Windhorst is basically right. It's unfair to Brown, probably, but heads have to roll after this start and it's usually the coach who goes first. That goes double when you look at their lack of roster flexibility.
   252. Spivey Posted: November 09, 2012 at 09:04 PM (#4299343)
I also think that Brown is a solid coach but much of being a good coach is having players' respect and after this I'm wondering if that has dried up.
   253. andrewberg Posted: November 09, 2012 at 09:38 PM (#4299368)
I was wrong about the mn pg usage. No Conroy. Lee at the 2, Shved going full Olympics mode at the 1.
   254. JC in DC Posted: November 09, 2012 at 10:25 PM (#4299394)
the dead and uncomfortable atmosphere around the team, the grumbling,


But why is this on Brown? As I said, I've been a Kobe defender, but why isn't this on the players, particularly the veterans like Nash and Kobe and Dwight? Why should there be a dead and uncomfortable atmosphere unless they're just passing the buck on trying for their coach, much as Melo was criticized for last year with D'Antoni?
   255. steagles Posted: November 09, 2012 at 11:03 PM (#4299408)
that was a hell of a game.
   256. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: November 09, 2012 at 11:12 PM (#4299412)
Knicks 4-0 for the first time since '93-'94. Each victory by double digits as well. It is extremely difficult to put into words the various things I feel right now.
   257. andrewberg Posted: November 09, 2012 at 11:15 PM (#4299413)
Shvedsanity is in full effect.
   258. rr Posted: November 09, 2012 at 11:27 PM (#4299416)
JC,

In CLE and LA, according to media guys around the team, the players did not feel that Brown was a very capable in-game strategist, nor did they like the way he handled rotations. He took criticism for this during the Cleveland loss to Boston in 2010 as well, as he was seemingly unable to adjust and appeared to be casting about. If the players don't think the coach has a handle on these issues, that will undermine the atmosphere. Also, as Brown said when he was hired, "I'll define the culture." And, personally, I think the atmosphere on a team has a lot to do with the coach, no matter how many big names are on the roster.

As Jimmy said, in some ways, this is not fair to Brown. Windhorst said the same thing. But I can see why the FO did it, and, predictably, the net is abuzz with Phil and D'Antoni rumors.

Also, Shabazz Muhammad was ruled ineligible by the NCAA today, and I am laid up with a back injury. I knew I picked the wrong week to quit drinking.

OTOH, everything went right for me this week in all other areas of life, so I shouldn't biatch too much.
   259. rr Posted: November 09, 2012 at 11:28 PM (#4299418)
And I think we can start getting ready for the BTF Wet Dream Finals:

KNICKS VS. WOLVES
   260. steagles Posted: November 09, 2012 at 11:31 PM (#4299420)
i'm just gonna highlight 3 things from tonight's win over boston:

1, wright and turner combined for 40 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists, 5 steals and a block on 13/28 shooting in 76 combined minutes. again, if they can continue to put up those kinds of numbers while jrue holiday and andrew bynum play up to their potential, this is a hell of a team.

2, jrue holiday put up 21 points and 14 assists. he's now averaging 19 and 10+ assists per game in ~40 mpg.

and 3, your nightly dispencer hawesome update: 8 points, 6 rebounds, 5 fouls. i'd say that's a 30:70 hawesome:HAHAwes ratio. he played well, but he got hit with some cheap fouls, and with kwame brown and andrew bynum both in street clothes, he put the team in a bind by getting his 5th foul in the 3rd quarter.

oh, and one bonus, the sixers still aren't very good at getting to the foulline, but they are doing a really good job of converting when they get there, as they're hitting on 81% of FTs on the season.
   261. andrewberg Posted: November 09, 2012 at 11:52 PM (#4299426)
Feel better rr. Backs are no fun
   262. steagles Posted: November 10, 2012 at 12:00 AM (#4299429)
and for today's dose of terrible sixers blogging, we again visit libertyballers:

The Sixers and Celtics square in Boston tonight for the first time since Rajon Rondo hit a bunch of threes in my face and sent Philly packing. Spencer Hawes had never been worse. Brandon Bass had never been better. My limbs had never been less attached. The Philadelphia DerrickRose'sTornACL's fought valiantly but ultimately scrappy wasn't scrappy enough and Boston went on to face the Miami Heat in the Eastern Conference Finals.
   263. Spivey Posted: November 10, 2012 at 12:24 AM (#4299435)
I didn't see it brought up at the time, but a few days ago Thomas Robinson has a brutal, dirty elbow foul in a dead ball situation to an opponent's neck.

Memphis is off to a good start. Marc Gasol is putting up like 18/7.5/6 on 58% shooting. Dude is incredible. I'd argue that with Howard banged up he's the best center in the league.
   264. Spivey Posted: November 10, 2012 at 12:32 AM (#4299438)
I picked Phoenix to make the playoffs, probably stupidly, because I thought their "core" of Gortat/Scola/Dragic/Dudley is incredible underrated. They are 3-3. Man, the rest of their team sucks though. PJ ####### Tucker is getting backup minutes at shooting guard! PJ Tucker!! Or as his friends call him, PJ I Haven't Played in the NBA in 6 Years and was a Power Forward in College Tucker. A long name, but his friends aren't in to the whole brevity thing.
   265. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: November 10, 2012 at 01:16 AM (#4299447)
But the Suns came back from 26 down! Third-largest comeback in franchise history!
   266. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: November 10, 2012 at 01:19 AM (#4299448)
Watching Jazz/Nugs. Kosta Koufos looks like an NBA player, which is weird. Jazz look listless.

It seems improbable that Jon Barry the color guy could be even worse than Jon Barry the studio analyst, but yeah, he is.
   267. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: November 10, 2012 at 01:36 AM (#4299452)
I will never get tired of watching Javale McGee, who just had the ball in a neutral position near the 3 point line, turned and tried to drive past many people and dunk it, getting his shot blocked.

And just now, a turnover when he failed to be out of bounds after taking the ball out of the basket.
   268. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: November 10, 2012 at 01:46 AM (#4299454)
That's so Javale!
   269. Booey Posted: November 10, 2012 at 01:03 PM (#4299544)
Jazz look listless.


They've been a completely different team at home than on the road so far this season. It's really frustrating.
   270. rr Posted: November 10, 2012 at 01:44 PM (#4299564)
They've been a completely different team at home than on the road so far this season. It's really frustrating.


I don't have any data to back it up, but I have read IIRC that young teams are sometimes prone to that. Also, Denver is a tough place to win.
   271. steagles Posted: November 10, 2012 at 02:01 PM (#4299571)
it's just five games, but a quick update on this:

maybe it's not quite 50/50 whether wright plays better than iguoadla this year, but if we judge them by various categories:

PER, TS%, O-rating, D-rating, TRB%, AST%, BLK%, STL%, MPG, and PPG.

i'd say TS%, TRB%, and BLK% are in the bag for wright.
i'd say that AST% and MPG are in the bag for iguodala.
but the rest, PER, O-rating, D-rating, STL%, and PPG could go either way.


wright: 4 (PER, D-rating, TRB%, STL%)
iguodala: 5 (TS%, O-rating, AST%, MPG, PPG)
push: 1 (BLK%)


   272. vagab0nd (no longer an outl13r) Posted: November 10, 2012 at 02:52 PM (#4299597)
Also, Denver is a tough place to win.


I thought this was mostly due to altitude, which shouldn't be an issue for the Jazz.
   273. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: November 10, 2012 at 02:54 PM (#4299598)
Turns out I wasn't going crazy. Fouls are way down. (Hollinger-Insider)
   274. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: November 10, 2012 at 05:35 PM (#4299700)
I shouldn't even engage you on this steagles, but...
1) it's like 5-6 games
2)
DW - 5 g, 31.0 mpg, FG: 3.6-11.2 .321, 3PT: 1.8-6.0 .300, FT: 3.2-3.8 .842, REB: 7.0, AST: 1.2, BLK: 0.8, STL: 2.0, PF: 0.6, TO: 2.2, PTS: 12.2, PER: 16.5, avg or so d
AI - 6 g, 36.0 mpg, FG: 5.8-12.7 .461, 3PT: 1.3-4.2 .320, FT: 1.5-2.2 .692, REB: 6.5, AST: 3.3, BLK: 1.0, STL: 1.5, PF: 1.3, TO: 3.8, PTS: 14.5, PER: 14.4, excellent d

I'll take guy #2 every time.
   275. steagles Posted: November 10, 2012 at 06:05 PM (#4299734)
I shouldn't even engage you on this steagles, but...
don't worry, i'm not drawing conclusions, i'm just following up on an earlier conversation.
I'll take guy #2 every time.
if dorell wright plays ~80 games this season and finishes with a 32% FG%, i'll gladly come in here and eat crow. but when he gets that FG% up to ~45%, it's a whole different ballgame.
avg or so d
excellent d
i'm sure it'll be written off because i'm the one who's saying it, but that's really not an entirely accurate portrayal of their current abilities.
   276. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: November 10, 2012 at 06:12 PM (#4299740)
Are you arguing that the subjective valuations and statistics collected by observers last season no longer hold true?
I would not be surprised if wright's improved this year - he has the frame and lateral quickness to do so. He's not better than iggy on that end.
Also, if you're gonna count things like wright's advantage on the boards, you've got to count the bricks too.
Make no mistake, I think Philly is a good place for Dorell - but you're going way overboard.
   277. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: November 10, 2012 at 06:16 PM (#4299741)
The Knicks are 4 and 0 because Carmelo is playing like the best player in basketball. He clearly has the talent. Maybe he figured out something. Also Good JR Smith has showed up a lot more. This probably will change in a week. But it's weird.
   278. rr Posted: November 10, 2012 at 06:37 PM (#4299748)
Despite reports that D'Antoni had knee replacement surgery and will be sidelined up to six weeks, sources tell Stein that if hired by the Lakers, he is expected to be available to coach within 10 days to two weeks


The Los Angeles Lakers zeroed in on Phil Jackson on Saturday morning and if their former head coach is amenable to a return under the right conditions, "it's Phil's job to turn down," sources told ESPNLosAngeles.com's Ramona Shelburne and ESPN.com's Marc Stein.


http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/8616281/sources-phil-jackson-frontrunner-los-angeles-lakers-job
   279. steagles Posted: November 10, 2012 at 06:57 PM (#4299755)
Are you arguing that the subjective valuations and statistics collected by observers last season no longer hold true?
I would not be surprised if wright's improved this year - he has the frame and lateral quickness to do so. He's not better than iggy on that end.
Also, if you're gonna count things like wright's advantage on the boards, you've got to count the bricks too.
Make no mistake, I think Philly is a good place for Dorell - but you're going way overboard.
wright's rebounding rate is fairly consistent with his previously established level of performance, whereas his FG% is flukishly low.

and where exactly am i going overboard? by measure of PER, wright was a league average player last year while iguodala was only slightly above. if i think wright will get a boost from playing more minutes on a better team, while iguodala will take a hit from being a year older (with arthritic knees) and playing on a team with a significantly less disciplined defense, i don't think it's unreasonable to think they'll pass each other in going in opposite directions.
   280. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: November 10, 2012 at 07:02 PM (#4299761)
Phil Jackson meets with Lakers Vice President Jim Buss
The Lakers are unwavering that there’s still a 95% certainty he will be their next coach. It's known that Jackson has already contacted assistant coaches who have worked with him previously about joining the Lakers' staff. It doesn't appear to be a problem for Lakers management.
   281. Booey Posted: November 10, 2012 at 08:26 PM (#4299798)
Also, Denver is a tough place to win.


New Orleans shouldn't be. Especially without Davis and Gordon.

I'm hoping the youngens don't get too discouraged by their slow start. With a 4 game Eastern roadtrip next week, things'll probably get worse before they get better. I'm still confident they'll eventually learn how to harness what they did against Dallas and LA and apply it on the road, but I'm guessing there are gonna be a lot more road L's before they do.
   282. steagles Posted: November 10, 2012 at 08:40 PM (#4299804)
the sixers really seem to be struggling to get their legs under them in toronto. it's the second game of a B2B, and they're just a step slow to every loose ball, they're slow in their rotations and they're getting stuck on toronto's screens.

that shouldn't be much of a surprise after that slugfest in boston last night. pulling this one out is gonna take some effort.
   283. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: November 10, 2012 at 09:03 PM (#4299816)
I shouldn't biatch too much


I read this as "I shouldn't Blatch too much", which, missing "e" or no, was hilarious.
   284. rr Posted: November 10, 2012 at 10:32 PM (#4299846)
Well, the Hornets haven't bad at all, actually. Like I said in preseason--not that many easy Ws in the West this year.
   285. OCF Posted: November 10, 2012 at 10:45 PM (#4299853)
My wife mentioned to me a popular song by Taylor Swift in which she sings something like "We are never, never, never, ever going to get back together again."

The context of the remark was, of course, Phil and the Lakers.
   286. steagles Posted: November 10, 2012 at 10:49 PM (#4299857)
the sixers really seem to be struggling to get their legs under them in toronto. it's the second game of a B2B, and they're just a step slow to every loose ball, they're slow in their rotations and they're getting stuck on toronto's screens.

that shouldn't be much of a surprise after that slugfest in boston last night. pulling this one out is gonna take some effort.
i wrote that after the first quarter, and in the 2nd, the sixers outscored the raptors 32-7 on the backs of dispencer hawesome and nick young. i'll take it.

just a few things:
1, player of the game: nick young. +25 with 16 points on 7/12 shooting.
2, evan turner and dorell wright combined for 23 points, 18 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals and a block.
3, dispencer hawesome: 12 and 11 in 23 minutes. i'd call that an 88:12 hawesome:HAHAwes ratio.
   287. King Mekong Posted: November 11, 2012 at 01:28 AM (#4299925)
Wow the spurs blazers game was amazing. Playoff atmosphere and just a super exciting finish. When the blazers go small they are pretty fearsome. Nic batum was lighting the spurs up and nearly hit a fadeaway three for the win. Impressive!
   288. steagles Posted: November 11, 2012 at 03:49 PM (#4300117)
i'm not gonna bring it up again so soon, but i want to make a note that i have bookmarked the following play index queries:

1
2
3
   289. smileyy Posted: November 11, 2012 at 04:45 PM (#4300139)
I hope STEAGLES likes roller coasters, because when you have Nick Young being your player of the game, you're going to have one heck of an exciting season.
   290. smileyy Posted: November 11, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4300143)
So, say Phil Jackson only coaches half the road games, probably the ones on long road trips -- how much winning percentage is lost by not having his influence for 2-4 games in a row? My feeling is that his influence is mostly strategic/attudinal/leadership-oriented, rather than immediately tactical but I could be wrong. And that the right assistants can cover a reasonable portion of that in his occasional absence.

Also, with a CBA with a more prohibitive luxury tax, doesn't it make sense to spend a ton of money on a high-leverage coach like Phil Jackson? I know his salary has been a sticking point with the Lakers before, which seems idiotic to me.
   291. Tripon Posted: November 11, 2012 at 04:55 PM (#4300151)
smileyy, his salary is only part of it. An another big part of it is that Phil Jackson wanted a large part of player input on the team, and Jim Buss wants the final input on that.

Jim Buss' a much hands on 'owner', and I put that in scarequotes because Jim Buss is not the owner, he's just the owner's son.
   292. JC in DC Posted: November 11, 2012 at 05:04 PM (#4300157)
I've always liked Phil Jackson, but I'm rooting for him to fail. I've gotten tired of his parasitism.
   293. smileyy Posted: November 11, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4300168)
I think its widely agreed upon here, but I'd just like to chime in too: Jim Buss is an idiot.

Ok, ok, I get it...he wants it to be _his_ championship team, not Phil Jackson's. (I think Phil Jackson has been in this situation before...)

I guess this is where that ownership conflict is. Buss is the owner (or owner-by-proxy), and he _is_ the Lakers as much as anyone can claim to be. OTOH, I think everyone but other sports owners would agree that the Lakers are bigger than Jim Buss, and championships are bigger than one person's ego.

But really...you have to be the guy-who-hires-all-the-guys? And its not enough to be the guy-who-hires-the-guy-who-hires-all-the-right-guys?
   294. rr Posted: November 11, 2012 at 06:33 PM (#4300226)
The buzz around LakerLand is that Jerry, not Jim, is driving the Buss on firing Brown, wanting Phil back, and has re-inserted himself into the decisions.

Phil would be a good choice to coach the team, provided that he can adjust, and modify the Triangle/not run it sometimes in ways that allow Nash to do his thing. The Lakers are too old and slow to be a great team on D; their bench will do a little better, as it did Friday, if utilized correctly, but will never be good with the current personnel. For the Lakers to actually be a really good team and not just a theoretically good team, Nash and Howard have to be Nash and Howard. In Howard's case, that depends on his back, and the jury is out there. But assuming Nash is OK after the injury, in his case it depends on getting the ball in his hands. As I mentioned earlier, Nash himself needs to make adjustments sometimes as well--this is a different kind of team than other ones he has been on. But there was no point in getting him if they are not going to let him be Nash.

D'Antoni, if it's him, will also need to make some adjustments. This team has neither the speed nor the floorspreaders that his best teams in Phoenix did. Neither guy is a guarantee of success--no coach is--but I would rather have either of them than Brown.

As to Jackson's "parasitism", he didn't trade for Howard and Nash and than make himself coach again, and he didn't fire Mike Brown. Jackson can be a diva and a manipulator, and he has a huge ego. But it is perfectly understandable that he would seriously consider coming back to coach this team.
   295. smileyy Posted: November 11, 2012 at 06:42 PM (#4300230)
Yeah, I can't really fault Phil Jackson for getting offers to run championship-contending teams, winning championships with them, and being selective in only wanting to coach certain championship-contending teams. He _is_ a diva because he _is_ a star that few if any other coaches can touch.
   296. steagles Posted: November 11, 2012 at 06:48 PM (#4300233)
I hope STEAGLES likes roller coasters, because when you have Nick Young being your player of the game, you're going to have one heck of an exciting season.
he was shooting 22% coming into last night's game, so i have no illusions of him being a reliable source of production.
   297. JC in DC Posted: November 11, 2012 at 08:50 PM (#4300271)
As to Jackson's "parasitism", he didn't trade for Howard and Nash and than make himself coach again, and he didn't fire Mike Brown.


Right. He didn't fire Mike Brown, but I'm sure he made it known he'd be willing to come back if they did. He walks away from a team on the downswing and makes himself available when they get the biggest fish not named Lebron, and makes it known that he'd be willing to come back. I'm sorry, but there's no way that's not undermining a guy trying to do his job who hasn't gotten a fair shake yet (in this situation). Good for Phil that he's that good and will get brought back on his terms ('cuz I don't see how LA goes in another direction). But you'll have to excuse me for rooting for him to fail this time.
   298. smileyy Posted: November 11, 2012 at 09:42 PM (#4300300)
I can understand that point of view, JC. Don't agree with it, but I don't think its crazy.
   299. Maxwn Posted: November 12, 2012 at 12:33 AM (#4300398)
Right. He didn't fire Mike Brown, but I'm sure he made it known he'd be willing to come back if they did.

Is there any actual evidence of this?
   300. rr Posted: November 12, 2012 at 02:03 AM (#4300423)
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