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Wednesday, October 31, 2012

OT: NBA thread—November2012

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what the site is really about: um…baseball?

link is to the previous month’s thread. 


oh, and since i can make everyone see this every time they click on this thread, let us discuss the…unique hairstylings of the sixers projected frontcourt:

steagles Posted: October 31, 2012 at 11:05 PM | 894 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nba


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   501. GregD Posted: November 20, 2012 at 08:43 PM (#4307172)
flip
   502. steagles Posted: November 20, 2012 at 10:59 PM (#4307228)
that was a hell of a ####### game. sixers came back from an 8 point deficit midway through the 4th quarter and finished the game on something like a 20-6 run from that point.


things:

1, jrue holiday finished the game with 19 points, 8 rebounds, 12 assists, and 3 steals. i know that PER and win shares and O-rating don't like him right now, but he is having an excellent season.

2, dorell wright only played 14 minutes, so again, he didn't do that much. but, evan turner put up 12, 5, and 4 assists, while jason richardson and nick young combined for 44 points on 14/27 shooting.

3, dispencer hawesome update: 6, 3, 2 assists, and 2 blocks. i'd say that's 43% hawesome.

4, hawes, kwame brown, and lavoy allen combined for 10 points and 11 rebounds in 46 minutes. i know that they've been put out by the bynum injury, but they really need to do better than that.

and 5, while it's seems to now be a distinct possibility that bynum either A) doesn't get back to 100% by the end of the season, or B) doesn't get back to 100% again for the rest of his career, or C) just doesn't get back, period, if he does come back, and if he is 100%, there's a lot to like here. jrue holiday has taken the next step, averaging 19 and 9, and between him, jason richardson, dorell wright, and nick young, the sixers as a team are shooting 38% from beyond the arc. if you add bynum to that, this looks to be a very dangerous team.
   503. JC in DC Posted: November 20, 2012 at 11:27 PM (#4307240)
That was Toronto, right? I mean, Toronto.
   504. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: November 20, 2012 at 11:32 PM (#4307243)
Someone scored 138 points in a game. No, seriously.
   505. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: November 21, 2012 at 12:04 AM (#4307254)
RT @DangerGuerrero BREAKING: Nick Young has just enrolled at Grinnell College.
   506. Morph Posted: November 21, 2012 at 12:17 AM (#4307260)
As a huge 'Melo and Knicks fan, I'm enjoying the season so far.
   507. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: November 21, 2012 at 12:19 AM (#4307261)
As a huge 'Melo and Knicks fan, I'm enjoying the season so far

I assume you went to Syracuse or are somehow connected to the school.
   508. Morph Posted: November 21, 2012 at 12:40 AM (#4307265)
507. Been a Knicks fan all my life (though I tuned out during the Isiah era, and just found Marbury's career arc sad) I've been back onboard since Donnie's first year. I liked Melo, but the insane amount of criticism he took as a player during his first year and a change with the Knicks has put me solidly in his corner. I thought things got way out of hand last season, with regards to Melo getting torn down. I'm no basketball expert, but I thought the nasty articles written after the Heat won the title, basically saying Anthony had no chance to ever win a title with the Knicks, along with the assertions that the Nuggets were better off without 'Melo were over the top. So, I'm a huge Knicks fan, but Melo's quest to prove these opinions wrong is also captivating for me. Apologize for any grammar-spelling sloppiness, written on I-Phone.
   509. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: November 21, 2012 at 12:56 AM (#4307271)
[508] I find it hard to believe that criticism of a player can ever be over the top where he quits on the team/coach and openly admits to doing so.
   510. Morph Posted: November 21, 2012 at 01:03 AM (#4307274)
509. Did he ever admit to quitting on D'Antoni, though? How much of it was a media firestorm? For instance, Isola was bringing up Dolan's involvement in the Anthony trade for months upon months on Twitter and in his column, and then yesterday I read quotes from Walsh himself basically saying he has no regrets about the trade and thought Anthony was a guy who could "do everything." (In other words, well worth including Felton in the trade) So basically, I can't trust media assertions that Anthony quit, considering how much everything gets sensationalized. (unless you are talking about quitting on the Nuggets, a situation I am less familiar with in terms of evidence and quotes) I did think Anthony was out of shape last season, which is inexcusable, but to me, forgivable.
   511. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: November 21, 2012 at 01:12 AM (#4307276)
[510] There's an MSG interview from last Spring that I had in mind, I'm sure I ntoed it on this thread back when it happened but this popped up after a quick Google search.

EDIT: I just find anyone being a huge Anthony fan to be shocking. I think, college basketball rivalries/associations aside, he's easily one of the 5 most hateable NBA stars and probably top 2 with Howard.
   512. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: November 21, 2012 at 07:24 AM (#4307312)
re: the 138 point game. That reminds me of Adam Sandler's bit about Wilt Chamberlain's game.
   513. Jimmy P Posted: November 21, 2012 at 11:16 AM (#4307383)
EDIT: I just find anyone being a huge Anthony fan to be shocking. I think, college basketball rivalries/associations aside, he's easily one of the 5 most hateable NBA stars and probably top 2 with Howard.


Oh, there's plenty of more hateable people in the NBA. You are right, though, he's not a sympathetic figure. He deserved every bit of criticism he got (and gets).
   514. GregD Posted: November 21, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4307391)
I really dislike Carmelo but can't see how he's top 5 hatable. I dislike him the way you dislike your annoying nephew who sits on the couch instead of going to shovel the driveway with the other guys. He's a chubby spoiled brat who has everything going for him but not the maturity to make use of it.

But come on the NBA has some guys who are straight out menaces to society and Carmelo for all his immaturity seems like a teddy bear when he's not being a whiny baby.
   515. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: November 21, 2012 at 11:24 AM (#4307394)
I didn't watch all of the Lakers/Nets game, but do have a couple of content-light thoughts -

-Man, Lopez really hustles down the floor to get on offense faster than any center I've seen. He literally can't wait to get away from defending and rebounding.
-I miss Watson on the Bulls. He hasn't been great, but man, he's been better than Hinrich so far.
-Terrible shot selection by BKN down the stretch.
-Howards FTing seems much worse than Shaq's in his prime. On this team, it's probably more likely to hurt them than Shaq's did back in the day.
   516. Conor Posted: November 21, 2012 at 11:46 AM (#4307413)
I'm a Syracuse grad who was a freshmen the same year he was, so obviously I love him for what he did there, but even as a Knicks fan, I've never been a huge Melo fan. Can't tell you how many people said to me after the trade something like "you must be so pumped to have Melo on the Knicks".

I don't really find him that hateable. The stuff where he admitted to not trying all that hard last year before Woodson took over was pretty bad, but mainly I just thought he wasn't as good as the general perception so I wasn't thrilled to have him on the team. Things are going pretty good this year. I think I might be ready to say I think the Knicks are clearly the second best team in the East this year, whereas before the season I saw them grouped together with a bunch of teams. If they played Miami in a 7 game series starting tomorrow, I'd think they would at least have a chance to win. Before the season i would've given them no chance to beat Miami.
   517. rr Posted: November 21, 2012 at 12:03 PM (#4307427)
I have always liked Watson. One reason I like BKN's team is that I think they have some nice bench players.
   518. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: November 21, 2012 at 12:36 PM (#4307470)
To clarify, I said "stars" meaning that amongst the guys that are regularly promoted by the league and its partners I think he's clearly in "bad guy" category. I'll stand by that.
   519. steagles Posted: November 21, 2012 at 02:59 PM (#4307585)
all of those things i linked earlier have nothing, absolutely nothing, on this:


...The current iteration of the Sixers is much the same, a slow-it-down, defense-first outfit that is both as egalitarian in its ball distribution as an Israeli kibbutz and as conservative in its game-planning as the U.S. Supreme Court under Roger Taney.


yeah, i'm not reading any more of that. i will, however share some of the comments that appear below this article:

Fantastic article, Mike

<3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3
Great piece.

That was a joy to read. Thank you for that!
This article perfectly encapsulates my newfound love for Nick Young. Thanks for this. I’m going to take a stab in a brightly lit room and say that you read DFW.
Bravo, Mr. Baumann
This article is too well-written to be a Liberty Ballers article.
   520. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: November 21, 2012 at 04:13 PM (#4307656)
yeah, i'm not reading any more of that.
That was a joy to read. Thank you for that!
   521. steagles Posted: November 21, 2012 at 07:25 PM (#4307764)
Someone scored 138 points in a game. No, seriously.
apparently they've led the NCAA in scoring in 17 of the last 19 years, and they also had a guy score 89 points in a game last season.
   522. rr Posted: November 21, 2012 at 07:30 PM (#4307766)
Kobe Bryant on Jack Taylor's 138:


"(Taylor) must have been wearing the Mambas, man. Only Mambas have no conscience to shoot the ball that much," Bryant said.


David Larson, a guy on the other team, scored 70 and was 34/44 from the field.
   523. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: November 21, 2012 at 07:31 PM (#4307767)
You haven't read about the Grinnell college team?

They run a full-court press on defense on every defensive possession, and they take the first vaguely open look (preferably from 3) on every offensive possession. To deal with the obvious exhaustion issues that come from playing such an insane brand of basketball, they get pretty much every player on a deep bench at least 10-15 minutes in every game, often playing in shifts like a hockey team. It's certainly something.
   524. Famous Original Joe C Posted: November 21, 2012 at 08:04 PM (#4307778)
   525. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: November 21, 2012 at 08:04 PM (#4307779)
they had a nationally televised game a few years back... that was ENTERTAINMENT.
incidentally, the guy who scored 89 in a game last year played in this game as well - 7 points on 2 for 3 shooting in 14 minutes off the bench.
   526. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: November 21, 2012 at 08:21 PM (#4307790)
Love is back.
   527. Booey Posted: November 21, 2012 at 09:13 PM (#4307811)
Someone scored 138 points in a game. No, seriously.


Didn't even shoot 50% though. Individual numbers really only matter within the context of winning and losing IMO, and gunning for personal records when your team is winning by 75 seems kinda hollow to me. I think the 70 on 34/44 is much more impressive. Huge points totals should happen cuz the player is on fire and not just cuz he shoots a ridiculous amount of times with a mediocre percentage. YMMV.

Guess that's why I wasn't an Iverson fan.
   528. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: November 21, 2012 at 09:32 PM (#4307822)
But most of his shots were threes - he shot 68% from two and had a tsp of 62%.
Granted, that whole game sounds hard to evaluate - 70 pt guy got the ball after faith broke the press and, as I understand, was shooting a lot of open layups - meanwhile,Taylor wasn't playing d on their half of the court (part of their hyper press and coach's plan to have a designated scorer).
Just a weird, weird thing.

Edit: Or is my sarcasm meter broken?
   529. Booey Posted: November 21, 2012 at 09:58 PM (#4307831)
Edit: Or is my sarcasm meter broken?


Nah. I'm usually not impressed with players running up personal stats against clearly unworthy opponents. It seems almost unsportsmanlike to me.

But most of his shots were threes


Yeah, at a 38% clip. That's not bad, but it's not so great that it warrants taking 71 of them either.

I don't know. I guess I should be more impressed.
   530. smileyy Posted: November 21, 2012 at 10:03 PM (#4307832)
I think the performance is hard to analyze, because Grinnell doesn't play anything that looks like conventional basketball.
   531. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: November 21, 2012 at 10:12 PM (#4307837)
Read the bpro article, then see what you think.
If u want to evaluate this game through normal means, that is. Personally, I think it's impressive as hell, efficient scoring though the other team knew what was up...
   532. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: November 21, 2012 at 10:21 PM (#4307844)
   533. steagles Posted: November 21, 2012 at 10:34 PM (#4307849)
that's another bad loss for the sixers. they deserved to lose, but that's not much of a consolation.

the sixers shot 36% from the field, they were outrebounded by 16, and they allowed cleveland to shoot 13/23 from beyond the arc. just looking at play index, there hasn't been a single team to win a game with those 3 conditions.
   534. rr Posted: November 21, 2012 at 10:35 PM (#4307850)
Buzz out there that Bynum may be out for the year (maybe STEAGLES has already posted something).

Lakers announced that there is "no timetable" for Nash's return.

OKC/LAC playing a tough one right now.
   535. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: November 21, 2012 at 11:37 PM (#4307879)
Love was a 34/14. Hibbert triple doubled (blks) and horford nearly did (w asts, was a board short)
Oh, and cha is a win short of last year's 10 games in...
   536. Booey Posted: November 21, 2012 at 11:46 PM (#4307883)
#532 - Those are some interesting looking numbers to be sure. I'd really like to see a tape of this game if it ever becomes available. I think #530 nails it; the style of play from both teams (but Grinnell in particular) just doesn't resemble basketball as we know it.
   537. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: November 21, 2012 at 11:51 PM (#4307886)
It's looking more and more likely that the Knicks were right not to re-sign Jeremy Lin. It's still a small sample but then again, Linsanity was based on a small sample as well.
   538. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: November 21, 2012 at 11:57 PM (#4307892)
It doesn't; agreed

Lin's not healthy, I'd wait awhile before concluding too much...
   539. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: November 22, 2012 at 12:02 AM (#4307898)
[538] Agree he's not healthy. However, him not being healthy after this long after a relatively minor injury is another concern of its own.
   540. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: November 22, 2012 at 12:07 AM (#4307901)
Thoughts on some games I watched tonight...

MIN-DEN: Love's post moves were a thing of beauty. Didn't realize he had that type of arsenal. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the tough time at the line was due in part to the injury/wrap. Gallo was also great bringing DEN back, I am a Gallo fanboy but I continue to think he needs to just ditch the 3 and focus on creating in the half, DEN should run the offense through him. Kinda cool watching a MIN-DEN game and feel like you're watching two legitimately good basketball teams go at it.

CHI-HOU: Ugh. I thought this one was ugly. The Asik block on Noah's drive at the end was sort of poetic and I loved seeing Toney Douglas contribute.
   541. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: November 22, 2012 at 12:11 AM (#4307905)
Tim Duncan is still amazing. He put up 20 and 15 tonight against the Celtics and his current PER would be the best of his career. Obviously, he likely won't be this good the entire year but he's 36 years old.

I didn't know Lin was hurt.
   542. Into the Void Posted: November 22, 2012 at 12:39 AM (#4307921)
that's another bad loss for the sixers. they deserved to lose, but that's not much of a consolation.

the sixers shot 36% from the field, they were outrebounded by 16, and they allowed cleveland to shoot 13/23 from beyond the arc. just looking at play index, there hasn't been a single team to win a game with those 3 conditions.


Just think where they would have been without Dorell Wright's contributions!
   543. steagles Posted: November 22, 2012 at 01:42 AM (#4307935)
Just think where they would have been without Dorell Wright's contributions!
this really isn't much to puff my chest about, but wright has essentially been league average this year by measure of PER.

and since the dorell wright conversation here centers around his being compared to andre iguodala, his PER is 2 points higher. in fact, coming into tonight, iguodala and evan turner had the exact same PER.

my comments at the time seem to ring true, at least to this point in the season. iguodala has taken a step back in terms of efficiency (his 3P% has gone back to his career average and his TO rate is 50% higher than it was last year while his assist rate is 40% lower), and in terms of defense, denver has gone from 20th in D-rating last year to 21st this year, so his impact there hasn't exactly been gargantuan. and individually, his D-rating has gone from 98 to 106.

and while wright hasn't improved to the extent i thought likely, he's averaging 8 rebounds, 2 steals and a block per 36 minutes. if you add the 16 PTS/36 he'd have if he was shooting his career averages (43/36/80 v. 33/35/87), that really is just as good a player as i had him pegged as prior to the season.


look, this is all a small sample, but if i've been wrong, i haven't been that wrong.
   544. steagles Posted: November 22, 2012 at 01:59 AM (#4307938)
and since it's in the conversation:

maybe it's not quite 50/50 whether wright plays better than iguoadla this year, but if we judge them by various categories:

PER, TS%, O-rating, D-rating, TRB%, AST%, BLK%, STL%, MPG, and PPG.

i'd say TS%, TRB%, and BLK% are in the bag for wright.
i'd say that AST% and MPG are in the bag for iguodala.
but the rest, PER, O-rating, D-rating, STL%, and PPG could go either way.


wright: 4 (PER, TRB%, STL%, D-rating)
iguodala: 5 (MPG, PPG, TS%, AST%, BLK%)
tossup: O-rating (iguodala has an advantage of 98 v. 96, but since 98 is 10+ points below his career average, that's not exactly much of a win)

also, while PPG is in iguodala's favor, PTS/36 is in wright's, for whatever that's worth
   545. Kurt Posted: November 22, 2012 at 02:18 AM (#4307942)
I'd really like to see a tape of [the Grinnell] game if it ever becomes available.

Here you go.
   546. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: November 22, 2012 at 11:49 AM (#4308007)
"and the fans are storming the court! Well, more like mildly walking out there... "
(corresponding footage shows players cordially shaking hands on the sideline by an empty court)
   547. Booey Posted: November 22, 2012 at 12:59 PM (#4308042)
#545 - Thanks!

I retract my earlier comment about not being impressed by Taylor's performance. That barrage of 3's at the end sure was something to see.

On the negative side, the blatant lack of defense Grinnell played at the end to get Taylor more shots was a bit shameless though. They rarely left their side of the court and allowed Faith Baptist to score one cherry picked layup after another. Seeing the game, David Larson's 70 on 34/44 shooting suddenly looks a lot less impressive since so many of his points came on wide open layups. Taylor's night was far beter. None of his shots were gimmee's.
   548. Into the Void Posted: November 23, 2012 at 09:54 PM (#4308529)
Good game going on in Memphis right now.
   549. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 23, 2012 at 10:11 PM (#4308534)
Apologies if this has been discussed, but - forgetting about whether the 138 points was a sham, etc. - might this college coach be onto something as far as the pure strategy of winning a basketball game?

Jack Taylor, of the Grinnell College Pioneers, scored 138 points in a game last night, against Faith Baptist Bible College. It's a mindblowing number, shattering the old NCAA mark of 113, and it's being trumpeted as one of sports' all-time individual achievements. It is not. It is bullshit. It is just the latest incarnation of Grinnell's decades-old strategy of seeking media attention for records achieved through a complete bastardization of basketball.

...

"The strategy was to use a full court press after a made basket, with the caveat that [the player seeking the record] would not cross into the defensive side of the court. So, after our opponents broke our press, we were essentially playing four-on-five, which enabled the other team to take quicker shots and fall into our game plan.

"The rationale is to essentially trade off a quick two or more attempts at lower probability 3-point shots. Given the high pace required for the system, Grinnell shifts in five players every 30 to 45 seconds. Within each shift there is a primary shooter who will take the bulk of threes (or shots) during the shift."


   550. OCF Posted: November 23, 2012 at 11:57 PM (#4308549)
I went ahead and watched the link given in 545. It was definitely a matter of inferior opposition, and according to the announcer, the game was an "exhibition" for Faith Baptist but yet somehow counted for Grinnell. That makes no sense to me, but whatever. The Faith Baptist team fell far behind in the first half because they couldn't score many times with a 2-1 advantage. They missed a lot of layups. What if Grinnell were to play a team that matched them in athletic ability and skills? Grinnell pressed frantically but didn't seem to be unusually good at it. A team with good discipline and good ball handling ought to be able to break the press routinely and get routine 2-1 or 3-2 chances. As for Taylor, he had some trouble getting his shot off when guarded by someone who was about 6-4. But that 6-4 guy wasn't very mobile, and Taylor could get around him to drive or run away from him to get a three from somewhere else.

Las season I was following a team whose leading scorer was a sub-6-foot point guard who shot a lot of threes. They made it into the (Div. 1) NCAA tournament, but went one and out. In that game the small point guard was defended by a highly mobile 6-4 or so guy who got right in his grill - and said point guard started making a lot of bad decisions, leading to turnovers and forced shots. And I think the bad decisions weren't a mental thing - they were physical. Under physical pressure, he simply couldn't see, and if he couldn't see, he couldn't dish and he couldn't make good decisions. Put Grinnell against a middling Division 1 team, and that's what would probably happen to Taylor. Overall, they'd get shredded.
   551. smileyy Posted: November 24, 2012 at 01:25 AM (#4308568)
Put Grinnell against a middling Division 1 team, and that's what would probably happen to Taylor. Overall, they'd get shredded.


Well...yeah...Grinnell is a D3 school. Of course they'd get destroyed.
   552. King Mekong Posted: November 24, 2012 at 06:16 PM (#4308743)
What would the lakers want if they were to trade Gasol? I would think something like this: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=cq46a3x (obviously it wouldn't happen, but something like an elite stretch 4 and a more 3pt prone SF and a young backup PG/PNR big depth)

   553. The District Attorney Posted: November 24, 2012 at 08:05 PM (#4308801)
What would the lakers want if they were to trade Gasol? I would think something like this: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=cq46a3x
Yeesh, that's ugly.

Simmons talks a lot about something based around Pau for Josh Smith...
   554. tshipman Posted: November 24, 2012 at 08:48 PM (#4308816)
What would the lakers want if they were to trade Gasol? I would think something like this: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=cq46a3x (obviously it wouldn't happen, but something like an elite stretch 4 and a more 3pt prone SF and a young backup PG/PNR big depth)


Stephen Jackson is negative value at this point. The best guy in that deal is Blair who has questionable ability to mesh with the Lakers' existing team.

I'd turn that trade down.
   555. steagles Posted: November 24, 2012 at 09:22 PM (#4308822)
that first half was a ton of fun. jrue holiday had 10 assists, evan turner had 11 points and jason richardson had 13, both on 5/7 shooting. thaddeus young had 12 and 8. considering that this team has lost to cleveland, detroit, and milwaukee in the last 2 weeks, i can't say i was very optimistic about tonight when the game tipped off, but so far, so good.

What would the lakers want if they were to trade Gasol? I would think something like this: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=cq46a3x
that wouldn't be good for either team. that trade takes three dimensions away from san antonio's offense (the board crashing from blair, the floor stretching from bonner, and the ability to go small with jackson), and while gasol should be better than any of those 3, he's not more valuable than all of them.
   556. steagles Posted: November 24, 2012 at 11:12 PM (#4308878)
that was a hell of a game. the sixers lost, but that kind of is what it is. they were outscored at the FT line 32-12. they were outrebounded on the offensive glass 18-12. but despite that, they took the game into OT...at which point OKC hit 4 straight 3Ps and put the game out of reach with a 12-4 run. OKC was something like 2/16 from beyond the arc in regulation, but for the entire 2nd half, they were 1 or 2 made 3s from putting the game away, and it was kind of inevitable that they were gonna hit them at some point.

things:

1, OKC was something like 16/18 from the FT line in the 3rd quarter, and some really weak calls put jrue holiday on the bench early in the quarter with 4 fouls. because of evan turner's scoring outbursts, that wasn't really a death knell, but it probably did hurt them.

2, speaking of turner, he had 26 points on 10/17 from the field. in addition, thaddeus young put up 29 and 15 on 13/23 shooting. both players were huge down the stretch in the 2nd half.

3, dispencer hawesome update: 7 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists. 16% hawesome.


the sixers are now 7-6 (kind of fitting), going into the 2nd night of a back-to-back against phoenix. that should be a win, but i can't really say that after some of the recent losses. and that's before factoring in tonight's OT game.

   557. rr Posted: November 25, 2012 at 01:39 AM (#4309030)
Simmons talks a lot about something based around Pau for Josh Smith...


That has been around for well over a year; Simmons has said that Smith and Korver coming to the Lakers for Pau is his "nightmare." Will be surprised if it happens, but then, I didn't think Howard was coming here, either.

The link below is from NBA.com; shows Pau and Howard's numbers with the other on and off-court:

link

Does not include the game tonight; Pau is 28/69 from mid-range when Howard is out there with him.
   558. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: November 25, 2012 at 10:27 AM (#4309090)
Pau to ATL is contrary to what ferry has (IMO) been trying to accomplish - don't see it happening
   559. PJ Martinez Posted: November 25, 2012 at 11:19 AM (#4309102)
The link below is from NBA.com; shows Pau and Howard's numbers with the other on and off-court:

General takeaway seems to be that Howard has been better when playing with Gasol, but Gasol has been worse when playing with Howard? Small sample sizes, of course.

The challenge with a Pau trade is that it probably has to be a challenge trade, right? No one will want him who isn't trying to compete, but the Lakers are only interested in someone who can help them now. Hard to figure out a good match.
   560. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 25, 2012 at 11:31 AM (#4309104)
It's after Thanksgiving, so I figured I'd stumble over to the NBA thread and see what's up, and lo, you're talking about the Hawks. Agree with Der_K, taking on salary just to move Josh Smith is not in line with ferry's general plan to date.
   561. rr Posted: November 25, 2012 at 12:28 PM (#4309122)
The challenge with a Pau trade is that it probably has to be a challenge trade, right?


Either that or a three or four-way. Like I said last year, Pau misses the Triangle, and he misses the 2008-10 Odom. He has also slowed down a little due to age and mileage (he is 32), but I think he is still good. When Hollinger has picked his all-NBA teams the last couple of years, he stopped doing the old 1,2,3,4,5 stuff, and picked "bigs" "wings" and "points." That applies to Pau; he is a "big" or might be called a "4.5." He is more a center than a PF, but to be at his best needs to be paired with a PF who has some size and quickness on D/glass but can play facing the basket and away from the basket on O--IOW, the 2008-10 Odom, which is not an easy skillset to find in a player.

So, being asked to play away from the basket and to cover the faster 4s in today's game, Pau looks bad a lot--missing jumpers on O and looking slow/soft on D and on the glass, which has resulted, as Lowe and others have noted, in Pau's taking a lot of crap from Lakers fans (I think Lowe may have lurked at the Lakers site I hang out at--the mod has actually told some people to ease up on the Pau-bashing) and occasional crap from Kobe, who has both defended and bagged on Pau in recent months at various times.

Assuming they keep him, as I and ten zillion other people have said, he should probbaly be utilized as much with Kobe as possible, and although Howard has played fine in some ways with him, should probably see less court time with Howard. As I suspected would happen, D'Antoni is starting to get something out of Jamison and Meeks, at least the last couple of games, which indicates IMO that the "two-star platoon system" meme about the Lakers' rotation should probably be attempted in some form if Nash ever comes back.

Speaking of Lakers' fans, Cuban called out the the Lakers fanbase for its "Twitter courage" and in an amusing Hollingerian moment, said that talking about the Lakers is "not worth it"--and then went on to bag the fans and the team, claiming that "most" Lakers fans are Twitter warriors and went on to say that he thinks that some guys (obviously Nash and Howard) "don't really want to be there."
   562. rr Posted: November 25, 2012 at 12:37 PM (#4309127)
Note on Pau: said last night that he has tendinitis in both knees.
   563. rr Posted: November 25, 2012 at 01:18 PM (#4309146)
Bradford Doolittle has a two-part series on the Knicks (one about the O and the other about the D) up at BaskPro (pay).
   564. PJ Martinez Posted: November 25, 2012 at 08:32 PM (#4309288)
A thought stolen from elsewhere: Could LAL and GSW work something out around Gasol and Lee? Does D'Antoni like the latter? Is he the sort of player that would fit better next to Howard in D'Antoni's system? Would GSW be interested? Gasol is a significant upgrade, but also significantly older (and more expensive). Seems like they're gunning for the playoffs, but if they see Lee as part of their core along with Bogut and Curry going forward, then obviously trading him for an older guy might not make much sense.
   565. steagles Posted: November 25, 2012 at 09:54 PM (#4309344)
i just want to say one thing about this game:

jrue holiday put up 33 and 13. he averages 17 and 9 on the season, and that is his 5th double-double this year. if you look at how his stats compare against the other players in the top 10 in assists per game (where he ranks 4th), he ranks:

2nd (6th) in PPG
3rd (4th) in RPG
6th (2nd) in SPG
1st (last) in BPG
4th (3rd) in FG%
2nd (6th) in 3P%
5th (3rd) in FT%
last (4th) in turnovers

since he seems to be considered the best PG in the league, chris paul's ranks are in parenthesis. i'm not saying that jrue is better, or even as good, but he's starting to put himself into the conversation. CP3 has significant advantages on holiday in SPG, FG% and made FTs, but jrue is right there with everything else.
   566. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: November 25, 2012 at 11:59 PM (#4309425)
since he seems to be considered the best PG in the league, chris paul's ranks are in parenthesis. i'm not saying that jrue is better, or even as good, but he's starting to put himself into the conversation.

Don't hold back.
   567. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: November 26, 2012 at 12:58 PM (#4309729)
Why the sudden urge to just start listing random stat categories and ranks? This ridiculous Holiday/Paul one isn't the first time either. I mean, it really can't be just to frame the argument to make it look less bad can it?

Isn't this the point of advanced stats, flaws and all? PER: 24.2 vs 18.5 (that's below Paul career avg and far and away Holiday's best so far in a small sample size. WS/48: .255 vs .095 (by this measure, Paul is above his career avg and Jrue is exactly the same as the previous 2 years). O-rtg/D-rtg: 122/101 vs 102/105 (both right around career). So no, he is not anywhere near the conversation.

---

No offense to the Bucks, but the Bulls beat them again. I can't make myself take Milwaukee seriously (and that's even if the Bucks win the rematch tonight). With Indiana falling flat on their faces, the winner of this division very well could be the road team in the 4/5 matchup.

---

Speaking of the Hawks, it's worth noting they're first in the NBA in DRtg right now. But 23rd in ORtg, surprisingly one of 8 teams with worse offenses than the Bulls right now.

---

Don't see it posted, but it was sad to hear the reason McHale as on a LOA was to be with his daughter, who passed this weekend.
   568. Too Much Coffee Man Posted: November 26, 2012 at 05:20 PM (#4309954)
Back when he used to coach the Nuggets, Doug Moe talked about his "plus/minus" system for ranking teams early in the season. The argument was that schedule imbalances (home v. away) distorted teams' records up til about the halfway point. Road wins minus home losses was a good way to evaluate teams in the context of their schedule. As of 11/25, the plus/minus top ten:
1. San Antonio +5
2. Miami +4
2. New York +4
4. Denver +3
4. Memphis +3
6. Atlanta +2
6. Golden State +2
6. OKC +2
6. Utah +2
10. Brooklyn +1

I'm a big Nuggets fan, so the ranking helps put their mediocre 8-6 record in context (4 road wins, only 1 home loss). But, it also shows how dangerous San Antonio is, 7-1 on the road!
   569. King Mekong Posted: November 26, 2012 at 06:28 PM (#4310033)
Of course the Spurs have also won quite a few close ones that could have easily gone either way.
   570. Fourth True Outcome Posted: November 26, 2012 at 07:47 PM (#4310074)
Primer RT: @johnschuhmann:
Andray Blatche to reporters in BKN locker room: "Anybody seen how the Wizards are doing?"
   571. King Mekong Posted: November 26, 2012 at 09:33 PM (#4310132)
Tiago Splitter with 15pts 9rebounds 7assists in 19 minutes for the spurs tonight. Game has 4:18 left in the 3rd.
   572. nick swisher hygiene Posted: November 26, 2012 at 10:08 PM (#4310158)
567: hey, just because John Henson has moved into the starting lineup
doesn't mean the Bucks lack talent!--oh.
   573. King Mekong Posted: November 26, 2012 at 10:47 PM (#4310181)
For some reason I can't edit my last one even though it appears...

Splitter ended up with 15 12 7 in 23 (and 2 blocks 2 steals)
   574. jmurph Posted: November 26, 2012 at 10:54 PM (#4310185)
Andray Blatche to reporters in BKN locker room: "Anybody seen how the Wizards are doing?"


Not that I'll agree with the implicit argument that Blatche's absence has anything to do with it, but holy god are the Wizards terrible. I was just at the game- and yes, it's 9:50, I've been home for 20 minutes, and I stayed until the end. I think it ended at 9:07. No point calling timeouts or wasting time when you're getting blown out.

Fun facts: Bonner put up 11 points in about 3 minutes in the 4th (my timing is probably off, but it felt that quick). This was garbage time and he was literally the only credible scorer on the court, yet he was wide open for 3 consecutive threes. Washington is the worst team I've ever seen in person.
   575. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 26, 2012 at 11:03 PM (#4310188)
Wait. Should I be paying attention to the Hawks?!
   576. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: November 26, 2012 at 11:24 PM (#4310214)
Well, that one's on me. Bulls blew a 27 point 2nd half lead and the Bucks finish the game on a 42-14 run, almost all by the Milwaukee bench. Nonetheless, neither team is that good.

Wait. Should I be paying attention to the Hawks?!

If you like mediocre but extremely ugly basketball, yes. And that's coming from the guy who just watched the Bucks and Bulls play back to back games.
   577. King Mekong Posted: November 26, 2012 at 11:30 PM (#4310223)
576 - The NBA, It's Fantastic!
   578. andrewberg Posted: November 27, 2012 at 01:18 PM (#4310626)
I didn't watch the game, but apparently the Thunder ran out to a 64-24 halftime lead against Charlotte last night. It probably doesn't mean a whole lot, but the 'Cats still left the game with a winning record.

Also, Hasheem the Dream is outplaying Perkins in limited minutes. 16.1 PER and .217 WS/48 to 9.0 and .089.
   579. JJ1986 Posted: November 27, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4310627)
On MNF, they said that the Panthers scored more first quarter points than the Bobcats last night.
   580. andrewberg Posted: November 27, 2012 at 01:54 PM (#4310671)
On MNF, they said that the Panthers scored more first quarter points than the Bobcats last night.


Only one of their opponents is trying to get their coach fired.
   581. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: November 27, 2012 at 04:36 PM (#4310826)
BTW, Luol Deng played all but 40 seconds of that Bulls/Bucks game last night. Which meant he got no rest when the lead was huge, and then had absolutely nothing left at the end when he needed it. All the talk in Chicago today is that the "Bench Mob" is gone and a collapse like last night never would have happened if Asik/Brewer/Korver/Watson were still here. While it's true the current bench isn't as good as the old one, there's no reason why Gibson only played 18min and Butler only 12min last night (only other non-starter to play at all was NateRob for 10 mins). Thibs' mentality is definitely a strength in why he's a successful coach, and it's going to be the reason for his downfall somewhere down the line. For Deng's own sake, I am almost hoping for a non-serious injury that requires rest.

FTR, Deng is first in the NBA with 41 MPG, Noah is 2nd at 39.2. Both guys are beyond imperative to any success for the current roster, and both have checkered pasts when it comes to health.
   582. steagles Posted: November 27, 2012 at 08:16 PM (#4311039)
the sixers are on pace to go 36/36 from beyond the arc and score 156 points.


i think i'm gonna take the under on both of those.
   583. Fourth True Outcome Posted: November 27, 2012 at 09:30 PM (#4311075)
the sixers are on pace to go 36/36 from beyond the arc and score 156 points.


i think i'm gonna take the under on both of those.


Coward! I'm taking the over!
   584. andrewberg Posted: November 27, 2012 at 11:20 PM (#4311108)
I watched the second half of Dallas-Philadelphia. I found myself refuting the points I was expecting STEAGLES to make about the game as it was happening. I'm disappointed that he hasn't posted yet and I have nothing to refute.
   585. Bitter Mouse Posted: November 27, 2012 at 11:47 PM (#4311123)
I'm disappointed that he hasn't posted yet and I have nothing to refute.


You could always preemptively refute his points, I'm sure he'll make them eventually :)
   586. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: November 28, 2012 at 12:51 AM (#4311145)
33 points at halftime for the Lakers. I nearly gouged my own eyes out.
   587. steagles Posted: November 28, 2012 at 01:10 AM (#4311148)
I watched the second half of Dallas-Philadelphia. I found myself refuting the points I was expecting STEAGLES to make about the game as it was happening. I'm disappointed that he hasn't posted yet and I have nothing to refute.
i'm kinda curious at what you think. personally, i don't think they've been very good this year (which i'm sure will be a shock to anyone who is a regular reader of this thread). things could be a whole lot worse, but i was expecting something like a 12-4 start going into december 1, and now, at best, they'll be 10-6. and that was my expectation for the team without bynum.


as for tonight, dallas's bench was the only reason this wasn't a rout. the sixers came out and hit something like 10 of their first 12 shots, scoring 21 points in the first 5 minutes of the game, but when dallas put carter and brand into the game, they clawed that back and came out of the 1st quarter with the lead.

also of note, i think dallas scored off of every single sixers' turnover in the first half. they definitely need to do a better job there.


also, there was a string of 5 consecutive possessions in the last 5 minutes of the game where the sixers forced a dallas turnover. i'd say that was the turning point, but dallas then went on something like a 12-5 run and closed a 10 point deficit with 3 minutes to go into a 2 point deficit with the ball with 17 seconds left in the game.
   588. andrewberg Posted: November 28, 2012 at 01:34 AM (#4311155)
I thought both Philly and Dallas looked pretty atrocious on this night. Both defenses seemed to key on simply not allowing layups and staying in front of PNRs long enough to force the other team to shoot jumpers. It led to a lot of long, stangnant possessions and turnovers, which made for an ugly game to watch. I would not even say the defenses played especially well, since the kind of went into a shell and let the other team shoot midrange jumpers, which makes for unattrctive basketball.

That string of turnovers (I think it was actually six) was ultimately the reason Philly won, but they did not force most of the turnovers; the Mavs just rely heavily on Collison, who can go pretty cold as a distributor. I will say that I thought Thad Young looked good. He continues to find more ways to score to add to his ability to get to the rim. I do not know if he will ever have a position enough to be a starter, but he is an excellent combo forward.
   589. smileyy Posted: November 28, 2012 at 01:54 AM (#4311159)
Soo...Indiana good? Or UNC bad? Or a little of column A, a little of column B?

My feeling is that UNC is probably...not good...given how badly they were shown up by a Butler team that was handled pretty easily by a Xavier team that is...good...but not that good. I realize things don't work exactly like that, but they kind of do.
   590. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: November 28, 2012 at 02:05 AM (#4311163)
Kill me now. Some shoot me. How did Pau Gasol end up on Hill above the key in space? How is that switch ever allowed?

KILL ME!
   591. OCF Posted: November 28, 2012 at 02:10 AM (#4311165)
33 points at halftime for the Lakers. I nearly gouged my own eyes out.

77 for the game, losing by 2. A majority of the Laker points were by Kobe. Free throw shooting was wretched on both sides. With about a minute to go, the Lakers missed 4 in a row, 2 by Howard and 2 by MWP (after a loose ball foul on the free throw rebound). The fact that Howard, in particular, can't shoot FT (he was 5-14 in this one) appears to be an exploitable weakness.
   592. tshipman Posted: November 28, 2012 at 02:17 AM (#4311169)
How did Pau Gasol end up on Hill above the key in space?


The fact that Howard, in particular, can't shoot FT (he was 5-14 in this one) appears to be an exploitable weakness


Pau Gasol's untimely demise seems like the larger issue.
   593. andrewberg Posted: November 28, 2012 at 02:29 AM (#4311171)
Kobe's turnovers vs. Howard's missed FTs is the ultimate hater's prop bet. Kobe won 10-9 tonight.

I can hardly blame Kobe. With that usage, 10 turnovers seems about right.
   594. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: November 28, 2012 at 02:39 AM (#4311176)
Yeah, without Bryant's relentless offense tonight, the Lakers would have lost by 30. The non-Kobe shooters were 1-17 from the 3-point arc. ONE. A bunch of them were of the wide, wide open variety, which tells us that (1) D'Antoni's system does create a ton of opportunities from range, and (2) the Lakers don't have enough shooters. Swapping Nash for Morris (0-6, 0 assists, 1 rebound) would help, but the lack of depth (5 points from the bench tonight) isn't a problem that's going to go away.
   595. Honkie Kong Posted: November 28, 2012 at 02:46 AM (#4311178)
Just seeing some early season box scores, Kobe seems to be turning the ball over at a very high rate.
Whats the record for turnovers in a season?
   596. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: November 28, 2012 at 12:45 PM (#4311416)
My feeling is that UNC is probably...not good...given how badly they were shown up by a Butler team that was handled pretty easily by a Xavier team that is...good...but not that good. I realize things don't work exactly like that, but they kind of do.

You should have subbed in Illinois for Xavier there, if only for my benefit since I watched Illinois destroy Butler. And also, UI is...good...but not that good (but much more watchable than last year, oh how glad I am that Weber is gone).
   597. Bitter Mouse Posted: November 28, 2012 at 01:00 PM (#4311434)
I am excited about Big 10 BBall this year. That might be because my Gophers are looking better than they have for a while, but still. Plus soon we get Maryland which should over the long term help.
   598. Famous Original Joe C Posted: November 28, 2012 at 01:04 PM (#4311441)
Just seeing some early season box scores, Kobe seems to be turning the ball over at a very high rate.
Whats the record for turnovers in a season?


366 by Artis Gilmore. Kobe (second in the league right now) is on pace for 339 - the highest this century is 344 by Iverson in 04-05.

Jrue Holiday is on pace for 361.
   599. OCF Posted: November 28, 2012 at 01:10 PM (#4311448)
I would suspect that Kobe's TO rate will decline when (or if) Nash returns to the lineup. And his usage might go down a little. As it is, he is spending long stretches functioning as the de facto PG, and that's not really his skill set.
   600. Manny Coon Posted: November 28, 2012 at 01:24 PM (#4311463)
Pau Gasol's untimely demise seems like the larger issue.


Pau Gasol is playing about 90% of his minutes at PF this year, in his three best season with the Lakers including their championship seasons, he played about 70% of his minutes at center. Gasol is at his best when he can switch up playing both low and high, this year with Howard and last year with Bynum unusually healthy, he's playing a more static role usually farther away from the basket where he's just not as good. When they won their championships, he was usually playing with Odom (Bynum was usually hurt) and both of them could play more dynamic and interchangeable roles and were excellent at keeping the ball moving as well.

Howard is probably better with a Ryan Anderson, Rashard Lewis, Robert Horry floor spacing type at PF, while Gasol is likely best with another versatile, ball moving big. The two of them just don't fit together well.
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